JAWS and the 2019 Hall of Fame Ballot: Roger Clemens
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2019 Hall of Fame ballot. Originally written for the 2013 election at SI.com, it has been updated to reflect recent voting results as well as additional research. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule, and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
Roger Clemens has a reasonable claim as the greatest pitcher of all time. Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, and Grover Cleveland Alexander spent all or most of their careers in the dead-ball era, before the home run was a real threat, and pitched while the color line was still in effect, barring some of the game’s most talented players from participating. Sandy Koufax and Tom Seaver pitched when scoring levels were much lower and pitchers held a greater advantage. Koufax and 2015 inductees Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez didn’t sustain their greatness for nearly as long. Greg Maddux didn’t dominate hitters to nearly the same extent.
Clemens, meanwhile, spent 24 years in the majors and racked up a record seven Cy Young awards, not to mention an MVP award. He won 354 games, led his leagues in the Triple Crown categories (wins, strikeouts and ERA) a total of 16 times, and helped his teams to six pennants and a pair of world championships.
Alas, whatever claim “The Rocket” may have on such an exalted title is clouded by suspicions that he used performance-enhancing drugs. When those suspicions came to light in the Mitchell Report in 2007, Clemens took the otherwise unprecedented step of challenging the findings during a Congressional hearing, but nearly painted himself into a legal corner; he was subject to a high-profile trial for six counts of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements to Congress. After a mistrial in 2011, he was acquitted on all counts the following year. But despite the verdicts, the specter of PEDs won’t leave Clemens’ case anytime soon, even given that in March 2015, he settled the defamation lawsuit filed by former personal trainer Brian McNamee for an unspecified amount.
Amid the ongoing Hall of Fame-related debates over hitters connected to PEDs — most prominently Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Sammy Sosa — it’s worth remembering that the chemical arms race involved pitchers as well, leveling the playing field a lot more than some critics of the aforementioned sluggers would admit. The voters certainly haven’t forgotten that when it comes to Clemens, whose share of the vote has approximated that of Bonds. Clemens debuted with 37.6% of the vote in 2013 and only in 2016 began making significant headway, climbing to 45.2% thanks largely to the Hall’s purge of voters more than 10 years removed from covering the game. Like Bonds, he surged above 50% — a historically significant marker towards future election — in 2017, benefiting from voters rethinking their positions in the wake of the election of Bud Selig. The former commissioner’s roles in the late-1980s collusion scandal and in presiding over the proliferation of PEDs within the game dwarf the impact of individual PED users and call into question the so-called “character clause.”
Clemens’ march towards Cooperstown stalled somewhat last year even as he climbed 3.2 percentage points to 57.3%. Whether or not the open letter from Hall of Fame Vice Chairman Joe Morgan pleading to voters not to honor players connected to steroids had an impact, the end result was another year run off the clock. He still has a shot at reaching 75% before his eligibility runs out in 2022, but he needs to regain momentum.
| Pitcher | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Roger Clemens | 139.6 | 66.0 | 102.8 |
| Avg. HOF SP | 73.9 | 50.3 | 62.1 |
| W-L | SO | ERA | ERA+ |
| 354-184 | 4,672 | 3.12 | 143 |
Contrary to legend, Clemens did not emerge whole from the Texas soil. Born August 4, 1962 in Dayton, Ohio, to parents who separated during his infancy, he didn’t move to Houston until high school in 1977. At Spring Woods High School, he pitched and played first base in baseball, was a defensive end in football, and a center in basketball. After attending San Jacinto College North in 1981, he was drafted by the Mets in the 12th round but chose not to sign. Instead, he left for the University of Texas, earning All-American honors twice and pitching the Longhorns to a College World Series championship in 1983. The Red Sox tabbed him with the 19th pick of that year’s draft.
After dominating at three different levels for a total of 17 minor league starts, the 21-year-old Clemens debuted in the majors less than a year later, facing the Indians on May 15, 1984 (they cuffed him for 11 hits and four runs in a 5.2-inning no-decision). He went 9–4 with a 4.32 ERA for Boston, but more impressively, he struck out 8.5 hitters per nine in his 133.1 innings, a rate better than the official AL leader (Mark Langston, 8.2 per nine). Limited to just 15 starts the following year due to shoulder soreness, he was diagnosed with a torn labrum by a then-obscure orthopedist named Dr. James Andrews, who repaired the tear arthroscopically — a novel treatment for the time.
Eight months later, Clemens was back in action, and at 23, he put together his first outstanding season in 1986. In his fourth start, he set a major league record by striking out 20 against the Mariners; he didn’t walk anyone, and allowed just three hits and one run.
He wound up leading the AL in wins (24) and ERA (2.48), and ranked second in strikeouts (238) and WAR (8.9). That latter mark trailed only Milwaukee’s Teddy Higuera, but Clemens’s edge in the traditional numbers and his role in leading Boston to an AL East title helped him capture not only his first Cy Young (unanimously, even) but also AL MVP honors.
Clemens made three good starts and two lousy ones in the postseason, throwing seven strong innings in Game 7 of the ALCS against the Angels and departing Game 6 of the World Series against the Mets after seven innings with a 3–2 lead and the Red Sox six outs from their first championship since 1918. Alas, fate intervened in the form of sloppy relief work by Calvin Schiraldi (an ex-college teammate of Clemens who had been traded to Boston in November 1985), a wild pitch from Bob Stanley, and a ground ball through Bill Buckner’s legs. You know the rest.
Clemens followed up in 1987 by winning 20 games, tossing seven shutouts among his 18 complete games (!) and racking up 9.4 WAR—league – leading figures in each category — en route to a second straight Cy Young. In 1988, he struck out a league-leading 291 and spun eight shutouts, helping the Sox to another AL East title.
His 1989 season was less notable (a garden-variety 5.7 WAR season, still fourth in the league), but he followed that up in 1990 with the first of three straight ERA crowns; his 1.93 mark that season was almost two runs better than the AL’s 3.91 figure. He also went 21-6 and led the league with 10.5 WAR that year but finished second to Oakland’s Bob Welch in a ridiculously upside-down Cy Young vote; Welch had gone 27–6 with a 2.95 ERA—more than a full run higher, in a much more pitcher-friendly park—in a season worth 3.0 WAR. The Red Sox won the AL East, but after throwing six shutout innings in Game 1 of the ALCS against the A’s, Clemens was ejected in the second inning of Game 4 by home plate umpire Terry Cooney, who claimed the pitcher cursed at him and called him “gutless.” The ejection came amid a three-run rally that would provide all of the offense Oakland needed to complete a four-game sweep.
Clemens won his third AL Cy Young in 1991, leading the league in innings (271.1), ERA (2.62), strikeouts (241), and WAR (7.9). The award made him the fifth pitcher to take home at least three Cy Young awards, after Koufax, Seaver, Steve Carlton, and Jim Palmer; at age 29, Clemens was the first to do so before turning 30. He slipped to third in the voting in 1992 despite leading the AL again in ERA (2.41) and WAR (8.8); that last figure was 0.6 wins more than Cy Young winner Dennis Eckersley and runner-up Jack McDowell combined.
No pitcher threw more innings than Clemens from 1986-1992 (1,799.1), and no one was within 20.0 WAR of him during that span; Frank Viola’s 37.7 ranked second to Clemens’s 58.4. High mileage began taking its toll, however. Clemens served stints on the disabled list in 1993 (groin) and 1995 (shoulder), averaging just 28 starts, 186 innings, 10 wins and 4.5 WAR from 1993-1996, about half his annual value over that previous seven-year stretch.
Camouflaged by a 10–13 record and a 3.63 ERA (still a 139 ERA+), Clemens’s final year in Boston was actually an outstanding one. He led the league in strikeouts for the third time with 257, and his 242.2 innings were his most since 1992. On September 18, in what proved to be his third-to-last start for the Sox, he tied his own major league record by striking out 20 Tigers, again issuing no walks. Despite his ability to fool hitters consistently, Boston general manager Dan Duquette opted to let Clemens depart for the Blue Jays in free agency, infamously declaring that the 34-year-old was in “the twilight of his career.”
The extent to which that statement fueled the final decade-plus of Clemens’s career is an issue taken up further below, but for now we’ll stick to the record as it unfolded at the time. In December 1996, the Rocket signed a three-year, $24.75 million deal with Toronto and then put together back-to-back seasons in which he won not only Cy Young awards but also Triple Crowns. His 1997 campaign (21–7, 2.05 ERA, 292 strikeouts, 11.9 WAR) was by far the better of the two seasons, though his 8.1 WAR the following year led the league as well. That 11.9 WAR season in 1998 ranks fourth among all pitchers since 1915, behind Dwight Gooden (12.2 in 1985), Carlton (12.1 in 1972), and Alexander (12.0 in 1920).
Clemens’s rebound caught the eye of Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, who had long coveted the now-36-year-old righty. On February 18, 1999, shortly after pitchers and catchers had reported to spring training, the defending world champions sent starting pitcher David Wells, reliever Graeme Lloyd, and reserve infielder Homer Bush to Toronto in exchange for Clemens. Hampered by a hamstring injury, he spent three weeks on the disabled list and posted a career-worst 4.60 ERA during the regular season, but he fared better in the postseason, save for an early exit against the Red Sox in Game 3 of the ALCS at Fenway Park; his 7.2 innings in Game 4 of the World Series against the Braves helped New York complete a sweep to sew up its second of three straight championships.
Clemens’s stint with the Yankees extended four more seasons. Though not as consistently dominant as he was in Toronto, he helped the Joe Torre-led team win pennants in 2000, 2001 and 2003. In the first of those years, he was knocked around in two Division Series starts by the A’s but responded with a 15-strikeout, one-hit shutout of the Mariners in the ALCS and eight innings of shutout ball in Game 2 of the World Series against the Mets. That latter performance was overshadowed by his confrontation with Mike Piazza in which Clemens hurled a broken bat barrel across the slugger’s path as he ran down the first base line, with benches emptying and the tabloids having a field day.
Aided by outstanding run support (5.7 per game), Clemens won a sixth Cy Young with a 20–3, 3.51 ERA season in 2001, though his 5.7 WAR ranked fourth; teammate Mike Mussina (17–11, 3.15 ERA with an AL-high 7.1 WAR) got a raw deal, finishing fifth in the voting. Clemens struggled early in the postseason, totaling just 13.1 innings through his first three starts, but he hit his stride in the World Series. With the Yankees trailing the Diamondbacks two-games-to-none, he whiffed nine in seven strong innings and allowed just one run in a Game 3 win, then struck out 10 in 6.2 innings in Game 7, though New York ultimately lost. After a dud start in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS against Boston, he had a strong outing against the Marlins in Game 4 of the World Series, but the Yankees fell to Florida in six.
The 41-year-old Clemens initially retired after that 2003 season, but when friend and former Yankees teammate Andy Pettitte signed with the Astros, he was lured back. Pitching in the NL for the first time, Clemens recovered some of his dominant form, winning his seventh and final Cy Young award in 2004 by going 18–4 with a 2.98 ERA and 218 strikeouts, his highest total since 1998. He won yet another ERA crown with a 1.87 mark in 2005. After helping Houston come within one win of a World Series berth in 2004 (his six-inning, four-run performance in Game 7 of that year’s NLCS wasn’t a career highlight), the team won the pennant the following year. Alas, he had just one good postseason start out of three, plus a strong three-inning relief appearance that garnered a win in the Astros’ 18-inning Division Series clincher against the Braves. He left the World Series opener against the White Sox after just two innings due to a hamstring strain, and Chicago eventually completed the four-game sweep.
Convinced that his aging body wouldn’t withstand the grind of another full season, Clemens continued to dabble with retirement, sitting out spring training and making 19 starts with a 2.30 ERA for Houston in 2006 and 17 with a 4.18 ERA for the Yankees in 2007. But any designs the 45-year-old Clemens had on furthering his career were put on hold when he was named in the Mitchell Report that December. Based upon information obtained from McNamee, who served as the Blue Jays’ strength and conditioning coach in 1998 and then moved on to the Yankees in 2000, the report alleged that Clemens began using Winstrol (a steroid) in mid-1998 after learning about its benefits from Toronto teammate Jose Canseco, and that he used various steroids and human growth hormone in 2000-2001. McNamee, who also served as a personal trainer for Clemens and Pettitte in the 2001–2002 offseason, claimed to have administered multiple injections to Clemens and to have stored the used syringes in empty beer cans. In 2012, Pettitte testified that Clemens admitted using HGH in a conversation the two pitchers had in either 1999 or 2000.
Clemens challenged the findings in the Mitchell Report, and two months later, he had his day in front of Congress. Seeking to cast doubt on the report and on the testimonies of both Pettitte and McNamee, the Rocket and his counsel went a weak 1-for-3, painting a picture of McNamee as a fairly disreputable character seeking to avoid jail time of his own. The Department of Justice opened a perjury investigation into Clemens’s testimony, and in August 2010, he was charged with six felony counts of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements to Congress. The case dragged on until June of 2012, when he was acquitted on all counts. McNamee’s defamation suit against Clemens was settled by the pitcher’s insurance company in 2015. “Roger Clemens did not contribute a penny to the settlement,” said Clemens’s attorney, Chip Babcock. “Nor did he release any claims against Mr. McNamee.” Still, that appears to be the end of the matter.
Meanwhile, in the summer of 2013, at age 50, Clemens mounted a brief comeback with the Sugar Land Skeeters of the independent Atlantic League, with son Koby catching him in two starts. Despite widespread speculation that he would pitch another game for the Astros — thereby bumping his Hall of Fame eligibility back another five years, distancing himself from the controversy — he did no such thing.
…
There’s little question Clemens has the numbers — traditional and sabermetric — for the Hall of Fame. His 354 wins rank ninth all-time, the second-highest total of the post-1960 expansion era behind Maddux’s 355. His 4,672 strikeouts rank third behind the totals of Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson. His seven Cy Young awards are two more than Johnson, three more than Carlton or Maddux, and at least four more than any other pitcher. He led his leagues in wins four times and placed in the top five seven other times. He led in ERA seven times and finished in the top five on five other occasions. He led in strikeouts four times, ranked second five times, and in the top five 16 times.
Clemens was similarly dominant in WAR, leading his league seven times, and placing in the top five another six times. His 139.6 career WAR ranks third behind Young (168.0) and Walter Johnson (165.2), and is nearly twice the total of the average Hall of Fame starter (73.4); the only other post-World War II pitchers above 100 are Seaver (110.1), Maddux (106.7), Randy Johnson (101.1), and Warren Spahn (99.9). Clemens’s 66.0 peak WAR ranks 11th, ahead of every pitcher whose career ended after 1930. His JAWS ranks third behind Walter Johnson and Young; Seaver is the only postwar pitcher within 20 points of his 102.8. To borrow Bill James’s praise of Rickey Henderson: Cut Clemens in half and you’d have two Hall of Famers.
For those who want to play the “He was a Hall of Famer before he touched the stuff” game, consider just what Clemens did with in Boston. In 13 seasons pitching for the Red Sox, he notched 192 wins with a 3.06 ERA (144 ERA+) and 2,590 strikeouts; his JAWS line for those years alone (81.0 total/60.3 peak/70.7 JAWS) would be above the Hall of Fame standard for starting pitchers and good for 23rd on the list, with a score a whisker below that of Pedro Martinez (84.0/58.3/71.2). That ranking doesn’t even include Clemens’s Cy Young-winning 1997 performance with Toronto, around which there are no PED allegations.
The PED allegations muddy the waters, but to these eyes, the timing matters. Clemens never failed a drug test, and the Mitchell Report’s accounts date to the time before MLB began testing players for PEDs or penalizing them; Clemens is not known to have used them once testing was in place. It’s also worth noting that the findings of the report didn’t hold up in court, with the credibility of star witness McNamee of major concern. That’s not to say that Clemens is as pure as the driven snow. He’s a reflection of the era in which he pitched, and by the guidelines I’ve laid out in this series, I don’t see anything in his case that puts him in the class of Rafael Palmeiro, whose Hall of Fame-caliber numbers were trumped — at least in the eyes of the voters — by his having failed an MLB-administered drug test.
Meanwhile, the election of Selig via the 2017 Today’s Game Era ballot may mark a turning point in the candidacies of Clemens, Bonds, and other PED-linked candidates. The Today’s Game committee is different from the BBWAA, but multiple BBWAA writers served on it, as did eight Hall of Famers. Selig received 15 out of 16 votes despite the stains on his resumé, namely a role in three years worth of collusion against free agents (which yielded a $280 million award to the players’ union) and the blind eye he turned to the proliferation of PEDs as commissioner. Any assertion otherwise on the latter front rings false given that, as acting commissioner, Selig must have known about the FBI’s Operation Equine, an early 1990s investigation into PED distribution that included McGwire and Canseco. Special agent Greg Stejskal told baseball’s security chief, Kevin Hallinan, about the investigation in 1994, and it defies belief that such a revelation wouldn’t have made its way to Selig. Despite all of that, the Today’s Game committee felt that Selig met the integrity, sportsmanship and character standards in the character clause that some BBWAA voters have used to justify voting against Bonds, Clemens et al.
Susan Slusser, the Oakland A’s beat writer for the San Francisco Chronicle and a past BBWAA president, was one of the first to grasp the ramifications of Selig’s election, tweeting, “Senseless to keep steroid guys out when the enablers are in Hall of Fame. I now will hold my nose and vote for players I believe cheated.” NY Sports Today’s Wallace Matthews, the New York Post’s Ken Davidoff, the New York Daily News’ Peter Botte and the Boston Globe’s Peter Abraham were among those voicing similar sentiments regarding the hypocrisy of electing Selig but not at least the pre-testing era candidates. Of that quintet, only Abraham and Davidoff had voted for Bonds and Clemens in 2016; all but Mathews (who abstained from voting) included him in 2017.
That Clemens and Bonds reached the 50% threshold — a strong indicator of future election — in 2017 is probably what compelled Morgan to send his letter to voters. Morgan’s belated, simplistic, and disingenuous plea ignored baseball’s long history of amphetamine abuse — and amphetamines are most definitely PEDs, illegal without a prescription since 1970 — and the presence of such users in the Hall of Fame, to say nothing of the strong possibility that steroid users have already been inducted as well. But while several voters pointed out the numerous flaws in Morgan’s letter and said that won’t sway them, the reality is that even with 12 out of 13 new voters adding Clemens, his net gain was just three more “Yes” votes than in 2017:
| Vote | 2015 | 2016 | 2017 | 2018 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Yes | 206 | 199 (-7) | 239 (+40) | 242 (+3) |
| No | 343 | 241 (-102) | 203 (-38) | 180 (-23) |
| % | 37.5% | 45.2% (+7.7%) | 54.1% (+8.9%) | 57.3% (+3.2%) |
Mind you, the disappearance of every “No” vote is a big deal, because each one takes three “Yes” votes to offset, but even with the electorate evolving — with the ranks of those who covered Clemens and feel personally misled by him dwindling, and the first wave of internet-based writers getting their ballots this year (this scribe gets his in 2021) — it’s going to take more voters changing their minds over the next four cycles for the Gruesome Twosome to be elected. I still think their election is more likely to happen than not, but another year of minimal gains would force me to reevaluate that belief.
That’s not to be confused with reevaluating my support of Clemens and Bonds. After 14 years of writing about PEDs in baseball, I’m firm in my belief that pre-testing era players should not be singled out for what was a complete institutional failure where the owners profited far more than the likes of McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and Clemens. The Hall of Fame has never been a church. If it can withstand the segregationists, alcoholics, domestic abusers, amphetamine users and Selig, it can withstand Roger Clemens, perhaps the greatest pitcher of all time.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Since Morris is in the Hall as “the best AL pitcher of the ’80s,” and since Clemens was a better AL pitcher in the ’80s ….
Clemens is most likely the best pitcher who ever played, it’s really down to Walter Johnson or him (really hard to even compare the two considering how different the game was when each played). No need to put him in the Hall of Fame though, clearly. The most impressive thing about Clemens is how much better than Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux he is; two incredibly good pitchers.
>>No need to put him in the Hall of Fame though, clearly
Clearly we don’t need to put anyone in the Hall. Birds will keep flying, babies will be born, empires will rise and fall without another single human being put in the baseball hall of fame.
Now should we really consider the hall valid when it is keeping out someone that is widely considered the best pitcher who ever played the game? Is the hall still valid while keeping out the greatest hitter who ever played the game? When did “fame” become synonymous with “morally upstanding” and not, well, fame? The older I get, the less I care about the hall because I’ve come to realize and accept that it’s “what a bunch of (mostly) old (mostly) white dudes want to memorialize” and little more.
I think he was being facetious.
While your point’s fairly clear, drawing a dichotomy between “fame” and “morally upstanding” unwisely implies that the Hall of Fame is actually meant to celebrate fame. Rather, it’s meant to confer fame. And while you probably get that, many people apparently don’t.
John Autin. Nice to see you posting with your usual trenchant analysis.
Amazing what you can get down-voted for
But the argument is how much better Johnson and Maddux could have been if they took steroids. We simply don’t know the impact. Tack on another 3 MPH to Johnson and Maddux’s fastballs and I think it’s safe to assume that either could have challenged Clemens for the title of best of the post dead-ball era.
Don’t assume that skinny players weren’t PED users. Both Johnson and Maddux pitched far longer than any pitcher can effectively go in the drug testing era. I get a little tired of people thinking that only beefy guys were steroid users. Neither Johnson nor Maddux could have ever looked as beefy as Bonds/ Clemens because of their frames. The bigger point though is that PED’s also help training and recovery times.
See “Gordon, Dee”.
Or “Heredia, Felix.”
That doesn’t sound like an argument worth having. We don’t have any evidence to say what effect steroids would have had on those two, so you can’t just say they would have thrown 3mph faster if steroids. Same for Clemens. We don’t know if he would have thrown less hard or been injured more often or whatever if he’s never taken steroids. It also seems highly likely that we know only a small portion of the steroid users from that era, so I’m not even sure it’s fair to say “player x or y definitely did not use steroids.”
Tack on another 3 mph to Randy Johnson’s fastball, and we’ll be talking about whether his killing of John Kruk should count against his HOF case.
forget it counting against Johnson’s case, it should get added to the plaque
John Kruk should never have been flying so low across the field of play.
wait Satchel Paige doesn’t make your list?
Pedro Martinez’s career WAR/WAR7/JAWS over 2827.1 IP were 84.0/58.3/71.2
When Clemens left Boston after his age 33 season and 2776 IP, his career numbers were 81.0/60.3/70.7.
He was a HOFer before he ever went to Toronto.
Taking just his years after leaving Boston (age 34 season and onwards), Clemens put together 58.0/47.5/52.8 in 2140.2 IP.
That’s approximately the career totals of HOFer Jim Bunning (59.6/49.0/54.3) in far fewer innings, and is basically Max Scherzer (54.5/47.2/50.9 in 2117.2 IP).
Pedro Martinez’s career, plus Max Scherzer on top. Yeeeeesh.
guuuuh I went off and looked all this up after reading the first few paragraphs, and only realized after posting it that OF COURSE IT’S IN THE ARTICLE YOU CREATED JAWS. Sorry.
I realize that this is completely subjective, but my take on the PED issue with the Hall of Fame is whether or not I think they would’ve been Hall of Famers without taking PED’s. In other words, take out the years that they were suspected of use, and is what’s left HoF worthy? For Clemens and Bonds, definitely. Put them in. For Sosa and McGwire, no. I’d keep them out.
Again, completely subjective.
I don’t really know how we can determine that particularly for the borderline cases. We don’t know who took PEDs and when. And even if someone fails a test, we don’t know when they started. Of when/if they stopped.
Exactly. We can’t. Which is why I said it’s subjective. For me, if I had a vote, that’s how I would use it.
We don’t even know what effects the PED’s had or for what purpose the player was taking them.
Even if there is literally 0% benefit on actual on-field performance, just the fact that they help a player return more quickly and extend their career a few extra years is a YUGE benefit.
That said, I am all for steroids and think the league should administer them to any player that wants them under (legitimate) medical supervision. (Not joking one bit here. Moralizing aside, IMHO steroids were great for the game.)
I don’t think Clemens passes the character clause, period. That level of cheating was pretty clearly against the rules, and it’s pretty obvious he did it. Getting your wife to commit perjury on your behalf to escape your own perjury charges is pretty low. The people whose careers were ended because they decided not to take steroids is really the deciding issue for me, though. Nope. No way.
I know a lot of people have complained about the “Hall of WAR” thing in the past, and it does raise the question: If systems like JAWS and Craig’s now-dormant version using fWAR are so good at identifying the best players, why are we even bothering with holding elections? I think this is one reason. There are some players who were good enough in some sense, but are not deserving of the honor.
I get that, but if character is such a large part of the election process, we’ll end up with a lot more Harold Baines’ in the Hall. I can barely handle the idea that a single Baines is in the Hall… to add more??
I’m sure this has been argued a thousand times before, but the character clause hasn’t aged well for some people in the HOF from decades ago.
Agreed. I can’t imagine getting into a niceness debate over candidates, since being an athlete has nothing to do with being nice, just athletic. Nice is a fine bonus, though.
Clemens has character defects that go well beyond PEDs and perjury. I’m surprised there was no mention in this article of his well-documented predatory sexual behavior (involving at least one 15-year-old girl). I’m sure at least a few voters find this type of behavior completely disqualifying. Clemens obviously deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on his performance and I would probably vote for him, but I’m not going to argue with anyone who chooses not to.
I won’t argue with them either. I always say that if Pete Rose can’t get in, then anyone can get left out.
All those guys doing perfectly legal blow in the way back eras, all those guys on speed in the 60’s, just really great humans competing fairly based on the rules of their era. Not a bad apple among them. All deserve the honor. Not like kids these days…
“That level of cheating was pretty clearly against the rules, ” Actually it wasnt and thats the argument….
It was absolutely against the rules. It was banned in 1991. There just wasn’t any effective enforcement. Look it up.
Based on the rubric of ‘character’ guys in the HOF like blatant racist and friendless human Ty Cobb, and a host of spit-ballers and dozens of known drug users and mean fellas enahrined, I’m going to wildly disagree on this point and say that Clemens more than exceeds the lower common denominator of HOF character credentials.
I see this argument a lot, but…why? Just because people were inducted in the past who we think are scum, why should we induct more? It’s like if someone said “gee, we put Harold Baines in the HoF, let’s just induct everyone in the Hall of Very Good.” Would that make sense? The answer is no, because our standards are not merely an aggregation of the players currently in, much less the lowest common denominator.
That characterization of Cobb is debatable. Mostly his biographer seems to have sabotaged cobbs character to increase book sales.
I’m not really interested in character issues keeping people out of the hall unless we’re going to actively start removing people from the hall for those same issues. Guys like Kennesaw Mountain Landis and Cap Anson are already in there
I’m actually with you here. The character thing is just uselessly subjective. If we want to continue to use “character” as a basis for HOF election then some sort of codification should be implemented, with lists of disqualifying infractions, and then retroactively apply those standards to those already in.
But really we should just remove such subjective nonsense from the process entirely.
You do realize that steroids were prevalent throughout baseball before Clemens was born, right? Mantle missed the end of ’61 because of an infected steroid injection site.
The wide-spread, well-known use of amphetamines (old-school performance enhancing drugs) by players did not stop the BBWAA from electing many of them to the HoF.
Why the double-standard on modern PED’s?
It’s nothing short of rank hypocrisy.
I go back and forth on the issue because it does hurt those who were clean (not that we really know who thosr are). But you’re right in my opinion. And it’s not just amphetamimes. Cocaine is also okay according to the HOF standars. Plus completely unnatural surgeries that extend careers and/or enhance performance such as Tommy John and Lasik. The bright line regarding PEDs is a bit strange given all the other things we’re willing to overlook.
I went back and forth for quite a while, myself. Ultimately, I landed on the spot that I stated above. And, as you stated, there’s not really any way to know with any real certainty who did or did not use.
To me, there is zero functional difference between steroids and amphetamines, and to try to make one is a fool’s errand in my opinion.
Because we can only do our best with the options we have available today. Should we just elect everyone from the Hall of Very Good now that Harold Baines is a member? No.
I hate this argument that “just because we elected some people before, we should elect more of them.” It’s not useful.
We should elect players based on their performance on the field, not on arbitrary moral grandstanding.
I think I might have figured out your position on this, but it was hard since you used the totally neutral language “arbitrary moral grandstanding” to describe a position that I would characterize as “honoring more cheaters is a bad idea, and not justified by honors accorded to prior cheaters.”
I have an issue with selectively applying standards and/or applying them retroactively.
I will take the BBWAA seriously on this “steroids as a disqualifier” thing when they start actually removing known cheaters from prior eras, much like society has begun doing with distasteful historical figures.
On performance he should be unanimous. And I agree with the idea that Selig, MLB institutionally, and the owners were clearly complicit as long as it put fannies in seats.
The problem with accepting PEDS users is invariably, you have to split hairs over when the player started, when he stopped, did he ever stop? Of course, there’s an intellectual framework you can apply, and “great before he used” is certainly a viable one, but all we can do is surmise a timeline. So, how much/how long is too much? I wouldn’t vote for any of the known PED users, but I realize that’s an extreme position. Baseball is a zero-sum game–for each success there is a failure, and to the extent one player used and his opponent didn’t, that advantage was an unfair one.
… except you can’t know whether his opponent was using or not. If you believe Caminiti/Canseco most players were. The NFL has no moral issue with steroids and has enshrined many users . I don’t get why some people think MLB should use a different standard. IMO, its arbitrary and and foolish to ignore an entire era of baseball like it didn’t happen.Everyone knows Clemens and Bonds were great, and everyone knows they used, the two things aren’t mutually exclusive. It is a Hall of FAME after all.
Or you can just accept that it happened, that players of all eras forever cheated in creative ways of their time, and put players in based on on field merit. Make the Roberto Clemente “Wing of Really Nice Guys” as well, and your problem of “morality” is solved.
“If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying!”
Mark Grace knew what the fuck he was talking about!
I remember being a teenage baseball fan in the 90s and the narrative being that Clemens’ last year with the Red Sox showed that he had fallen off. Looking up his FanGraphs page, he posted a 6.8 WAR that season.
He was also fantastic in 1994, finishing second in ERA and strikeouts and leading the AL with a 57 ERA-. His WAR of 4.2 was third in the American League. And yet he only had 9 wins through a combination of poor run support and the strike, so people use that as evidence that he was in the twilight of his career.
As Jay so eloquently stated, if the Hall has room for segregationists, alcoholics, domestic a users, and amphetamine users, it has room for Clemens.
3rd best pitcher in Ken Griffey Baseball for N64, fwiw
A Hall of Fame without Clemens (or Bonds) is simply a farce of an institution in my eyes.
Very succinctly put and accurate
He, even more than Bonds, should be the last PED user in the hall. When the Red Sox let him go, he looked like he was toast. And at that point he would not have been a hall of famer. It wasn’t until he went north and got huge that he had his second career renaissance. Bonds was playing great and was a probable hall of famer when he suddenly got huge and unbeatable. Clemens wasn’t. I believe that most of the players from that era were PED users and that we should judge them on a sliding scale against each other rather than other eras. However, Clemens is the exception. He shouldn’t be in. Period.
If he retired after leaving the Red Sox, he would already have had Roy Halladay’s career.
This is nonsense. There’s an entire paragraph in this very article describing why Clemens would be a HOFer if he retired after leaving Boston.
IIRC, Clemens added that nasty splitter right about the time he went to Toronto. In his last few years in Boston, the AL strike zone shrunk in height (knees to mid-thigh), and hitters could lay off Clemens’s rib-high 4-seamer. The splitter gave him back the dominance that he had in the 80’s, more than anything else.
I’d elect Pete Rose, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds.
It’s the Baseball Hall of Fame, not a sainthood.
The way I see it, betting against one’s own team violates the spirit of the game more than trashing one’s body in an effort to give one’s own team more of a chance to win
No one is suggesting Rose be elected as a manager. Is there any evidence he bet on or against his team during his time as a player?
To me, the two are not separate. As I see it, Joe Torre is in for both, if/when Dusty Baker gets elected it will be for both, and even if Lou Piniella gets elected the (smallish) legacy his playing days will add to that of his managing career.
I suppose that I can see your point, though, since I also feel that with Curt Schilling his election or not should depend on what he did during his playing days, not his time since.
Put the supposed steroids users in. All of the worthy ones, not just Bonds and Clemens. A lot of great baseball was played then, memories formed, and fans made for a lifetime. Too many writers who applauded the home runs and voted for the MVPs and Cy Youngs even as their suspicions rose now insist on crapping on that era’s baseball. Celebrate the so called steroid era, warts and all, by enshrining its best players.
“American Icon” is a book-length investigation on Clemens’ steroids use by four New York Daily News reporters and is well worth a read if you’re interested in the subject.
When cheating is as widespread as it was in the PED era, keeping suspected cheaters out of the Hall of Fame no longer has weight as a moral statement …
… not when usage was (perceived as) so common on both sides of the ball that many felt compelled to join in or else lose their jobs.
… not when both the suspicions and the voting are as haphazard as what we’ve seen so far.
… and especially not when there’s no concurrent effort to apply the same standard to management’s failures throughout that period. Having Bud Selig in the Hall does more harm (in my view) than any possible gain from a moral statement of keeping these all-time greats out.
When the game was played with one or two umpires, cheating on the field was rampant — baserunners cutting corners, fielders holding back runners, anything that could be gotten away with when no one was watching. No doubt there was a spectrum of participation in that lawlessness; and surely some who’d have rather played clean felt compelled to join in just to level the playing field. John McGraw’s Orioles teams, who won 3 straight pennants 1894-96, were said to excel in the dirty arts, yet the Hall inducted Willie Keeler, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley and Dan Brouthers from those teams.
If we somehow acquired the same degree of specific knowledge and suspicion about a group of players involved in that cheating as we have now about PED use, would we try to kick those guys out of the Hall? I don’t think so.
The modern practice of pitch-framing — “stealing strikes” — isn’t cheating, per se, but it is arguably dishonest and unethical. Yet far from discouraging it, the baseball community celebrates it by creating a new value metric, so that those who excel at the practice can be recognized and rewarded — and thus, anyone who’d rather “play clean” is pressured into participating.
If we someday come to a different view of pitch-framing, will we retroactively condemn those we once celebrated? Of course not.
I wouldn’t withhold a HOF vote from ANY player of that era on PED grounds.
I would say that Maddox did dominate hitters as much. He didn’t get K/9 like Clemens because he got so many outs early in counts. His K % is up there with the best of them and his K/BB is better then Clemens and his HR surpression was better. If you mean shear number of K or K/9 as the only measure of dominance then yes but by other metrics Maddux was just as good.
Clemens leaving Toronto was due to a trade demand, but it was an unusually amicable one. According to what I recall, the front office at the time had a handshake agreement to trade Clemens to a contender if they couldn’t manage to build one. In 1997 they weren’t good yet despite Clemens’s monster year. In 1998, they won 88 games with a very good collection of young position players, a great Clemens, and a bunch of pitchers who were either recently good or would be good again soon. The only team who were definitely stronger contenders going forward were the (114 win) Yankees.
The trade to the Yankees wasn’t a case of Steinbrenner forcing the issue as much as having a great player handed to them by a front office who could never figure out how to use their assets. The Jays got a decent return (David Wells was good for two years, Homer Bush hit .320 in 1999), but wow was that a frustrating period of Jays fandom, being stuck behind the Yankees and Red Sox, despite being one of the better teams most years.
Clemens’ attitude while defending himself against the PED charges leaves a horrible image in my mind. Much like Ryan Braun but far worse as he aggressively demeaned anyone involved in the story and also refused to comment directly multiple times. So I’d see Bonds in before I’d see Clemens get in. Or they should just add a plaque about PEDs or whatever bad conduct any player might have committed (Pete Rose) and let them in based only on their stats etc.