JAWS and the 2020 Hall of Fame Ballot: Andy Pettitte

The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2020 Hall of Fame ballot. Originally written for the 2019 election, it has been updated to reflect recent voting results as well as additional research. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.

As much as Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, and Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte was a pillar of the Joe Torre-era Yankees dynasty. The tall Texan lefty played such a vital role on 13 pinstriped playoff teams and seven pennant winners — plus another trip to the World Series during his three-year run with Houston — that he holds several major postseason records. In fact, no pitcher ever started more potential series clinchers, both in the World Series and the postseason as a whole.

For as important as Pettitte was to the “Core Four” (Williams always gets the short end of the stick on that one) that anchored five championships from 1996 to 2009, he seldom made a case as one of the game’s top pitchers. High win totals driven by excellent offensive support helped him finish in the top five of his leagues’ Cy Young voting four times, but only three times did he place among the top 10 in ERA or WAR, and he never ranked higher than sixth in strikeouts. He made just three All-Star teams.

Indeed, Pettitte was more plow horse than racehorse. A sinker- and cutter-driven groundballer whose pickoff move was legendary, he was a championship-level innings-eater, a grinder (his word) rather than a dominator, a pitcher whose strong work ethic, mental preparation, and focus — visually exemplified by his peering in for the sign from the catcher with eyes barely visible underneath the brim of his cap — compensated for his lack of dazzling stuff. Ten times he made at least 32 starts, a mark that’s tied for seventh in the post-1994 strike era. His total of 10 200-inning seasons is tied for fourth in that same span, and his 13 seasons of qualifying for the ERA title with an ERA+ of 100 or better is tied for first with two other lefties, Mark Buehrle and CC Sabathia. He had his ups and downs in the postseason, but only once during his 18-year career (2004, when he underwent season-ending elbow surgery) was he unavailable to pitch once his team made the playoffs.

Even given Pettitte’s 256 career wins, he takes a back seat to two other starters on the ballot (Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling) who were better at missing bats and preventing runs, and who also had plenty of postseason success. Both of those pitchers have reasons why voters might exclude them from their ballots even while finding them statistically qualified, and the same is true for Pettitte, who was named in the 2007 Mitchell Report for having used human growth hormone to recover from an elbow injury. Between those dents and dings and the additional presence of both Roy Halladay and Mike Mussina, who were elected last year, Pettitte received just 9.9% in his ballot debut. In a less crowded field, he could build upon that, at least well enough to persist on the ballot, but he seems unlikely to make much headway towards 75% barring a significant change in the electorate’s attitudes towards PEDs.

About those wins: Regular readers know that I generally avoid dwelling upon pitcher win totals, because in this increasingly specialized era, they owe as much to adequate offensive, defensive, and bullpen support as they do to a pitcher’s own performance. While one needn’t know how many wins Pettitte amassed in a season or a career to appreciate his true value, those totals have affected the popular perception of his career.

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2020BBWAA Candidate: Andy Pettitte
Pitcher Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Andy Pettitte 60.2 34.1 47.1
Avg. HOF SP 73.2 49.9 61.5
W-L SO ERA ERA+
256-153 2,448 3.85 117
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference

Pettitte was born on June 15, 1972 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His father Tom, a police sergeant, built a mound in the family’s back yard and began teaching his son by using a library book that showed how Nolan Ryan gripped his pitches. When Andy was eight, the family moved to Deer Park, Texas, a suburb of Houston, where Tom coached Andy’s teams right up until high school. Pettitte stood over six feet tall by his junior year at Deer Park High School, with a fastball in the low 80s and an advanced feel for mixing his pitches. By the time he was a senior, he stood 6-foot-5, but was pudgy enough to play center and nose tackle on the football team.

Though Pettitte received scholarship offers from Louisiana State University and other schools, the Yankees drafted him in the 22nd round in 1990. He did not sign, instead choosing to attend San Jacinto Junior College for a year, where he played for future Rice University coach Wayne Graham, who called him “a left-handed Roger Clemens.” The comparison resonated, for not only had Pettitte grown up idolizing Clemens, but Graham had coached the right-hander at San Jacinto in 1981. Graham helped transform Pettitte into a legitimate pitching prospect with a 91-93 mph fastball and better conditioning. The Yankees retained his rights up until a week before the 1991 draft, and ultimately landed him for an $80,000 bonus just before the signing deadline.

Pettitte split his first professional season (1991) between the Yankees’ Gulf Coast and New York-Penn League affiliates; at the latter stop, he crossed paths with Posada, also 19 years old and still primarily a second baseman. The pair spent 1992 together at A-level Greensboro of the South Atlantic League, where they were eventually joined by an 18-year-old Jeter, the Yankees’ 1992 first-round pick. At Greensboro, Pettitte posted a 2.20 ERA and 7.0 strikeouts per nine, and in each of his next two minor league seasons, he kept his ERAs near or below 3.00; he spent most of 1993 at High-A Prince William, with a taste of Double-A Albany-Colonie, where he returned for the start of 1994 before heading to Triple-A Columbus, where he posted a 2.98 ERA and a modest 5.7 strikeouts per nine.

In the spring of 1995, Pettitte placed 49th on Baseball America’s Top 100 prospects list, but lost the battle to be the Yankees’ fifth starter to Sterling Hitchcock and was sent to the bullpen; he made five relief appearances, briefly returned to Columbus, then joined the big club’s rotation when Jimmy Key suffered a shoulder injury that required surgery. He enjoyed a very solid rookie campaign, going 12-9 with a 4.17 ERA (111 ERA+) and 4.01 FIP in 175 innings en route to 2.9 WAR, helping the Yankees make the playoffs for the first time since 1981. Manager Buck Showalter gave him the ball to start Game 2 of the Division Series against the Mariners; Pettitte allowed two runs through six innings before being touched up for two more in the seventh, including the go-ahead run. The Yankees won the game in 15 innings but ultimately the lost series. The 23-year-old southpaw finished third in the AL Rookie of the Year voting, which was won by the Twins’ Marty Cordova.

Pettitte produced one of the biggest seasons of his career in 1996: 34 starts, 221 innings, a 3.87 ERA (129 ERA+), and an AL-high 21 wins, the last thanks to a robust 5.6 runs per game of offensive support. His 5.8 WAR ranked eighth in the AL. He did all of this while rotation-mate David Cone missed four months due to an aneurysm in his arm, Key served two DL stints, and Kenny Rogers scuffled. Pettitte made his first All-Star team and finished a very close second in the AL Cy Young race behind the Blue Jays’ Pat Hentgen, but not before helping the Yankees to their first championship in 18 years. After allowing four runs apiece in his Division and League Championship Series starts (both of which the Yankees won, 5-4) — he delivered eight strong innings on three days’ rest in the ALCS Game 5 clincher against the Orioles. The Braves pounded him for seven runs in 2.1 innings in the World Series opener, but Pettitte rebounded to pitch 8.1 innings of five-hit shutout ball opposite 1996 NL Cy Young winner John Smoltz, a performance that in 2015 he called “the best game of my career.” The Yankees eked out a 1-0 victory and took a three-games-to-two series lead; they would win in six games.

Though he won “only” 18 games, Pettitte actually had a better season in 1997, when he made a league-high 35 starts and threw a career-high 240.1 innings with a 2.88 ERA (156 ERA+, both good for fourth in the league) and just seven homers allowed (a league-best 0.3 per nine). His 8.4 WAR ranked second in the league behind the Cy Young-winning Clemens, but he finished just fifth in the voting. He was lousy in the postseason, getting rocked for 11 runs in 11 and two-thirds innings by the Indians in his Division Series starts, both losses. It would be five years before the Yankees took such an early vacation in October again.

In three major league seasons, Pettitte had established himself as one of the game’s top starters, thanks in part to his development of a nasty cut fastball. His 16.9 WAR for the period ranked sixth in the majors from 1995-1997 behind only Greg Maddux, Clemens, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and Pedro Martinez. He’d done it while pitching through a sore elbow, dating back to a three-inning relief stint in Baltimore on May 1, 1997, a day after getting torched for nine runs in one-plus inning. But whether it was his elbow or his over-reliance on his sinker-cutter combo at the expense of his curve and changeup, his performance took a significant step back even as the fate of the Yankees improved. From 1998-2000, while the Yankees won three straight championships, Pettitte averaged 32 starts and 204 innings, albeit with a 4.42 ERA (105 ERA+) and just a 1.53 strikeout-to-walk ratio, down from 2.21 for the three years prior. He was still good enough to average 2.8 WAR in that span, but the Yankees pondered trading him as he grew more expensive.

In July 1999, as the trade deadline loomed, the Yankees and Phillies neared a deal that would send Pettitte (then carrying a 5.65 ERA) to Philadelphia in exchange for three prospects including pitcher Adam Eaton and outfielder Reggie Taylor. In an organizational clash, Torre, pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre, and general manager Brian Cashman won out over owner George Steinbrenner and his cabal of Tampa-based advisors, who wanted to turn the rotation spot over to the immortal Ed Yarnall. Pettitte stayed, began working out with Clemens (who had been acquired in the spring) and allowed just three runs over his next four starts totaling 31 innings. That winter, he signed a three-year, $25.5 million extension with an $11.5 million club option for 2003.

As uneven as the 1998-2000 seasons were for Pettitte, he did place fourth in the AL Cy Young voting with the best of those years (2000: 19-9, 4.35 ERA, 3.6 WAR). During that stretch, he delivered eight quality postseason starts out of 11 with a combined 3.26 ERA; the Yankees went 10-1 in those starts, rallying to win even when he took early exits in Game 3 of the 1999 World Series against the Braves and Game 5 of the 2000 Division Series against the A’s. He threw seven shutout innings in Game 4 of the 1998 World Series against the Padres, helping the team complete a sweep, and made good starts in Games 1 and 5 in the 2000 “Subway Series” against the Mets. He left the latter tied at 2-2 through seven innings; the Yankees plated two runs in the ninth and Rivera closed it out for the team’s third straight championship.

The work with Clemens began to rub off on Pettitte. In 2001, his fastball showed more zip, he worked inside more often, posted career-best strikeout and walk rates (7.4 and 1.8 per nine), brought his ERA below 4.00 (3.99) with a FIP nearly a run lower (3.02), and made his second All-Star team. He pitched well in his first three postseason starts agains the A’s and Mariners, allowing just five runs in 20.2 innings, and hung with the Diamondbacks’ Johnson for six innings in his World Series Game 2 start, entering the seventh trailing 1-0 before serving up a three-run homer to Matt Williams.

After losing the first two games in Arizona, the Yankees won three straight in New York to position themselves for their fourth straight title. Pettitte again took the ball opposite Johnson but was pummeled for six runs in two-plus innings; on ESPN Radio’s international broadcast, analyst Rick Sutcliffe noticed that he was tipping his pitches by double-pumping on every fastball from the stretch. The Yankees didn’t discover the problem until it was too late; they lost both Game 6 and — thanks to a two-run rally against Rivera — Game 7 as well.

While elbow, back, and groin injuries sent Pettitte to the DL every year from 1999 through 2001, the 2002 season brought his first major injury, a bout of tendonitis that sidelined him for two months, from mid-April to mid-June. Limited to 22 starts, he nonetheless went 13-5 with a 3.27 ERA (135 ERA+ in 134.2 innings), and while he lasted just three innings in his lone postseason start against the Angels, the Yankees picked up his option that winter. Pettitte rewarded them with another strong, workhorse season, though his 21-8 record and 7.8 strikeouts per nine were flashier than the other numbers (4.02 ERA, 110 ERA+, 3.1 WAR, his fourth straight season between 3.1 and 3.6). In the best October showing of his career, he posted a 2.10 ERA in five starts, allowing more than two runs just once. He whiffed a postseason career high 10 Twins in his Division Series start, and came within one out of a shutout in Game 2 of the World Series before the Marlins plated an unearned run. Though he allowed just two runs (one earned) in seven innings in Game 6, Josh Beckett shut out the Yankees on five hits, giving the upstart Marlins a championship.

In December 2003, Pettitte shocked the baseball world by returning home to Texas. He did so by bypassing a three-year, $39 million offer from the Yankees in favor of a heavily backloaded, three-year, $31.5 million deal with the Astros. “He wanted to go home to Houston,” said Steinbrenner. “And I admire him for wanting to be with his family. He couldn’t do that in New York. He was a great competitor for me.”

Soon joined in Houston by Clemens, whom he’d coaxed out of retirement, Pettitte made just 15 starts in 2004 due to forearm woes that culminated in season-ending surgery to repair a torn flexor tendon. He returned better than ever in 2005, going 17-9 with a career-best 2.39 ERA (177 ERA+, with both marks second in the NL behind Clemens) and 6.8 WAR (fourth in the league). During one stretch in June and July, he allowed no more than one earned run in eight straight starts. His postseason performance wasn’t great (4.26 ERA in 25.1 IP), as he wound up on the losing end three times while making four quality starts. The Astros, in their first World Series appearance, were swept by the White Sox.

Pettitte made a league-high 35 starts in his final year in Houston, but battled elbow tendonitis, and his ERA ballooned to 4.20 (106 ERA+), with his WAR dipping to 1.5. He had other problems as well. In October 2006, the Los Angeles Times published a report citing an affidavit from former Yankees pitcher Jason Grimsley, who alleged that both Pettitte and Clemens had used performance-enhancing drugs, and that he himself had obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids, and human growth hormone from Brian McNamee, a former Yankees trainer who maintained a close working relationship with both pitchers. Pettitte vehemently denied the allegations, saying, “I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance on the baseball field before.”

In December, the 34-year-old lefty agreed to return to the Yankees on a one-year, $16 million deal with a $16 million player option for 2008. On September 19, near the end of a typical season (15-9, 4.05 ERA, 5.9 K/9, 3.8 WAR), he beat the Orioles with a seven-inning, one-run performance to claim the 200th victory of his career. His 6.1 shutout innings against the Indians in Game 2 of the Division Series went for naught when Joba Chamberlain was devoured by a horde of midges.

Feeling the pull of family and mulling retirement, Pettitte declined his player option, mainly to allow the team to free up a roster spot while he deliberated. On December 3, he agreed to return at that same salary, but nine days later, his name was among the 89 included in the Mitchell Report. Two days later, he admitted to injecting HGH obtained through McNamee to recover from his 2002 elbow injury. “In 2002 I was injured. I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow,” he said in a statement released to the Associated Press. “I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.”

Pettitte’s name remained in the headlines when Clemens appeared before Congress to challenge the findings pertaining to him in the report in February 2008. Pettitte said in a statement that Clemens had told him of using HGH nearly 10 years earlier, and that McNamee had told him that Clemens used steroids in 2003 or ’04. Clemens claimed Pettitte “misremembered.”

On the field, Pettitte scuffled. While his 4.54 ERA was not a career worst, his 97 ERA+ was; it was the only time in his 18-year career that he allowed runs at a worse-than-average clip (his 3.71 FIP, his best in three years, told a different story). The Yankees missed the playoffs for the first time since the 1994 players’ strike, which triggered a major spending spree; $420 million worth of commitments brought Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, and Mark Teixeira to the Bronx. Pettitte, working on an incentive-laden one-year deal, served as a solid number three starter behind the two newcomers, rebounding to a 4.16 ERA and 3.4 WAR, then turned in one of his most memorable postseason runs. Though his overall 3.52 ERA in five starts totaling 30.2 innings wasn’t remarkable, he joined the 2004 Red Sox’s Derek Lowe by winning three clinching games in a single postseason, over the Twins (Division Series), Angels (ALCS), and Phillies (World Series).

Though he made the AL All-Star team on the strength of an 11-2, 2.70 ERA first half, Pettitte’s 2010 was abbreviated by a groin strain that sidelined him for two months and limited him to just one September start longer than four innings. Nonetheless, he turned in a pair of seven-inning, two-run starts in the Yankees’ Division Series Game 2 victory over the Twins and their ALCS Game 3 defeat by the Rangers. Again deliberating on the retirement question, he pulled the plug in early February, just before pitchers and catchers reported.

Though he sat out all of 2011, Pettitte could not stay retired. In March 2012, the 39-year-old southpaw quietly agreed to return to the Yankees — who had, in essence, left the light on for him — on a $2.5 million deal. He returned to the majors on May 13, and pitched as well as ever (3.22 ERA, 9.1 K/9) until a one-hopper off the bat of the Indians’ Casey Kotchman fractured his left fibula. After missing nearly three months, he made a three-start September tuneup followed by a pair of good postseason starts totaling five runs allowed in 13.2 innings. Alas, he wound up on the short end both times, and the Yankees bowed to the Tigers in the ALCS.

Still hankering for more, Pettitte returned for his age-41 season, and for the first time since 2009 made 30 starts, finishing with a 3.74 ERA and 2.2 WAR in 185.1 innings. Unlike Rivera, who received a grand farewell tour that culminated with Jeter and Pettitte pulling him from his final appearance, Pettitte didn’t announce his intentions until September 20, 2013. He threw seven innings of two-run ball against the Giants in his final Yankee Stadium start two days later, and then a complete-game five-hitter against the Astros in Houston, his home away from home, on September 28.

From a Hall of Fame standpoint, Pettitte’s claim rests on a high win total, very good run prevention after adjusting for his park and league, and a strong postseason resumé, all of which are worth a closer look. First, the wins. Pettitte’s total of 256 ranks 42nd all-time, and is higher than 32 of the 65 enshrined starters, including Halladay (203), and 2018 Modern Baseball Era Committee honoree Jack Morris (254). However, 256 wins does not guarantee a spot in the Hall; there are eight pitchers with more on the outside looking in, including Clemens (354) and a pair of pitchers who spent more than a quarter-century in the majors, Tommy John (284) and Jim Kaat (283).

Wins, of course, are the product not just of a pitcher’s skill at run prevention but also of the support he receives from his offense, his defense, and his bullpen. In Pettitte’s case, prior to his original retirement he received offensive support that was about 10 percent better than the park-adjusted league average. That’s according to research done for the Baseball Prospectus book Extra Innings by Colin Wyers and myself in the fall of 2011, with said support for all starters defined simply as the runs scored on the day (or night) the starter pitched, and therefore available via game logs back into the 19th century. Wyers and I found just 12 Hall of Fame starters with better support, led by Chief Bender (117).

Pettitte was less well-supported by his defenses, in that he had a .312 career batting average on balls in play where the MLB average was .298; his FIP (3.74) is thus lower than his ERA (3.85). Bullpen support? Pettitte and Rivera — the best ever at his job — combined to set a record for teaming up, with Rivera saving 72 of Pettitte’s wins, far beyond the 57 wins of Oakland’s Bob WelchDennis Eckersley combo.

Pettitte’s career ERA would be the second-highest in the Hall, in front of only Morris, but the adjustments for park and league are everything in this case. Pettitte has a 117-105 edge on Morris in ERA+. His 117 ERA+ matches that of Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry, who ranks 43rd among enshrined starters, and it’s two points better than Jim Bunning, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Fergie Jenkins, and Eppa Rixey, who are tied for 45th. All but Bunning threw at least 1,000 more innings than Pettitte.

Postseason-wise, the frequency of the Yankees’ participation in the three-tiered playoff format whose introduction coincided with the start of Pettitte’s career helped him set records for starts (44), innings (276.2) and wins (19, against 11 losses); meanwhile, he’s second in strikeouts (183). While Pettitte certainly hit some high notes within that large body of work while helping the Yankees win five championships, he also had some duds, including seven starts with five or more runs allowed, only one of which went longer than five innings. His 3.81 postseason ERA is a ringer for his regular season mark; his 4.06 World Series ERA in 13 World Series starts (the second-highest total behind Whitey Ford’s 22) slightly worse; he’s tied for seventh in World Series strikeouts (56) and eighth in innings (77.2) and wins (five). His ERA in his record 12 potential postseason series clinchers: 3.95 (the Yankees won eight); in four potential World Series clinchers: 3.68 (the Yankees won three). Cool stuff, but he was more like the second coming of Andy Pettitte than he was Schilling or Madison Bumgarner.

In terms of WAR, Pettitte’s career total of 60.2 is 13.1 WAR short of the standard at the position. He’s 64th — 22 spots lower than his win total, remember — and behind 44 of the 65 enshrined starters. Among those elected by the BBWAA, only Ford (56.9) and Catfish Hunter (40.9) threw at least 3,000 innings, where Dazzy Vance (60.1) and Bob Lemon (48.2) fell just short, with Sandy Koufax (49.0) short of 2,500 and Dizzy Dean (45.6) short of 2,000. That’s not a great argument in Pettitte’s favor.

Nor is the fact that his 34.1 peak score is tied for 170th with one Thornton Lee, 0.2 ahead of Don Sutton, whose peak is the lowest among BBWAA honorees. Pettitte’s 47.1 JAWS ranks 91st, ahead of only Ford (45.7), Dean (44.9), Lemon (43.3), and Herb Pennock (40.9) among BBWAA honorees. Of the currently active starters whose progress towards Cooperstown I’ve been monitoring, he’s well behind Justin Verlander, Zack Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, Max Scherzer, and Sabathia.

Thus, based upon both traditional and advanced metrics, Pettitte would represent a rather weak choice for the Hall of Fame — and I say that as somebody who had a considerable emotional investment in his career as a fan and would like nothing more than to find a rationale for electing him. I don’t see one, and that’s even while consigning his Mitchell Report-related transgressions to the “Wild West” era of the game’s drug problems, where if MLB couldn’t punish him, I don’t think voters should do so either.

Given all of that as well as the presence of two starters with stronger (albeit controversial) cases on the ballot, it’s tough to find a particularly compelling rationale to vote for Pettitte. Just 9.9% of voters did last year, and of the voters in Ryan Thibodaux’s Ballot Tracker, just three said that if they had more than 10 slots, they would have included Pettitte as well, which does not portend a groundswell of coming support.

I suspect that some voters will see the elections of Mussina and Halladay — both well short of 300 wins — as pushing the door a bit more widely open for Pettitte, but both were much stronger at run prevention, and generally more decorated and celebrated. That said, it does appear as though his candidacy will persist. And while he’s probably not a fit for Cooperstown, flags fly forever, and he’ll always be fondly remembered in the Bronx.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

63 Comments
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Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
6 years ago

Pettitte’s HOF case is based in large part on his Postseason impact, which is barely mentioned in the article. His Postseason WPA of 3.5, if weighted heavily, could be considered more than adequate supplement to his 30 WAA in the regular season to make him HOF worthy. It really is in the eye of the beholder whether that’s enough or not, whether helping a team win in critical points in postseason is important to a case. It’s arguable that WPA isn’t important, that he may have been helped by offense and defense in Postseason, that steroid taint eliminates him completely. But the article didn’t frame these cases enough and thus doesn’t do justice to the issue. He’s obviously less deserving than Schilling and Clemens by the numbers but that’s too high of a bar unless your HOF is about 1/3 the size of the actual one.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

You’ve got to have some unusual logic to get to that, though. First, you have to accept the logic of using WPA for individual player value, which is not really what WPA measures (it’s a game-level measure measuring excitement). Then, you have to ignore that his postseason WPA is at least partly so big because he has pitched constantly in the postseason, which of course, is largely a function of his teammates. Then, you have to weight the 270+ postseason innings as a counting stat and not as a rate stat but also with a greater rate than the 33000+ innings in the regular season.

All of this is worth a discussion, but it is a bit messy. Fortunately (?), Jay will have another 8 years to write a capsule for Pettite’s Hall of Fame case, so he’s got plenty of time to dive into the minutiae.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This is all true. To me Pettitte’s case rests on these items and not really on conventional regular season greatness. His case is “messy” as you say.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
6 years ago

“Cool stuff, but he was more like the second coming of Andy Pettitte than he was Schilling or Madison Bumgarner.” Um.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

I am really curious who you meant, though.

BenZobrist4MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

I think he just meant that postseason Andy Pettitte had numbers that look almost exactly like regular season Andy Pettitte.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Bad reading comprehension on my part. I considered that. Foolish.

BenZobrist4MVP
6 years ago

While his peak was rather low, there is the HGH issue, and I’ve never liked the Yankees, if I had a vote, I think Pettitte would make the cut for me, because of the following reasons:

1.) He was always at least above average every single year of his career. All 18 seasons he had a FIP- below 100. Very few pitchers in history can match that.

2.) While I understand mostly using bWAR for Hall of Fame analysis, his fWAR of 68.2 is definitely up in Hall of Fame territory (and ahead of Sabathia, Kershaw, Greinke, and Halladay). Even averaging bWAR and fWAR gives him a decent total WAR case.

3.) His 276 innings of postseason performance at the same level as his regular season work is the equivalent of 5-6 extra WAR. I understand that he was fortunate to be on a team with those opportunities, but he still took advantage of them and may have been able to pitch more in the regular seasons had he not had all of that extra mileage in the postseason.

4.) I think the fact that he went out on top counts for something. He had 2.7 fWAR his final season and even though he was 41 there is no reason to think he couldn’t have been an above-replacement-level pitcher for another year or two adding WAR, wins, and strikeouts if he had chosen to do so.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Since you’re getting voted down, I’ll respond and explain where I disagree (even though I’m not one of the downvotes):

1) Interesting but I’m not sure that makes him a HOFer. And in some seasons, he was very, very close to 100. Had he crossed over – which might have only taken 1 extra homerun in some of those borderline seasons – then this whole point would have been negated.

2) fWAR definitely gives him a stronger case. As does averaging the two. But I’m a bit confused by your comparisons. Kershaw and Greinke are both still active and have a good chance of passing Pettitte someday. Halladay was basically the anti-Pettitte…fairly short career but very high peak. Sabathia’s an interesting comp but we have no idea if he’ll get in the Hall or not. So yeah, I’m a bit confused by those comps even though I think this is by far the strongest of your 4 points.

3) See, for me to say that someone “took advantage” of their postseason opportunities, I want to see them perform better than they did in the regular season. Not the same. Also, I’m not sure there’s any evidence that shows that pitching in the postseason has a negative effect on what happens in the subsequent regular season(s). It’s possible but it’s also complete speculation.

4) Sure, but we really don’t know. And I’m a little uncomfortable giving credit for something that didn’t actually happen.

BenZobrist4MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

1.) This is valid, although even if you consider 18 seasons of average or better, that is impressive to me. Combine that with a 7.2 fWAR season in 1997, which would be Cy Young territory in many seasons and his postseason work, to me that makes a Hall of Famer. I realise this is subjective and reasonable people can disagree.

2.) This is fair that Kershaw and Greinke are still pitching and that all 4 of the pitchers I mentioned had better peaks than Pettitte. However, in my book all 4 of them are already Hall worthy even based on their career WAR. Again, I realise some people have higher thresholds.

3.) He took advantage of his postseason opportunities just like he took advantage of his regular season opportunities. I think if any team could get guaranteed postseason innings out of a starting pitcher at an 84 ERA- quality, they would take it in a heartbeat.

4.) I will conceed that this was easily my weakest argument.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Well you were at -3 downvotes but now are at 0, so…. 🙂 🙂 🙂

1) Yeah, that was actually the hardest point for me to respond to because it is interesting and impressive.

2) Clearly 68+ WAR is impressive and changes the conversation relative to his more modest Baseball Reference WAR.

3) Sure, they’d take it. But I have to be honest that this is the first time that I’ve heard the suggestion that someone should get postseason credit for performing at their regular-season level (unless their regular season level was “dominant”.

The_BaseballKid
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Jeter, Jack Morris, Whitey Ford, Reggie Jackson… and one day probably David Ortiz. Literally most of the players that have gotten a postseason bump where because they had as much success in the postseason as they had in the regular season. To me, it says something when you’re equally successful against the best teams in the game and under the most scrutiny of the year.

emh1969
6 years ago

Jackson, Jeter, and Ford were/are considered no doubt about it HOFers. Anything they did in the postseason was icing on the cake. They would have easily made the Hall even if they had performed below average in the postseason.

Morris was elected by the Eras committee. They don’t talk publically about their votes so we have no idea how postseason play factored into the voting for him. Personally, I suspect he would have gotten in easily without his postseason play.

Ortiz….you seemed to have missed my qualifier “unless their regular season level was “dominant”. Ortiz was a dominant hitter in the regular season and in the postseason. Pettite was a good/very good pitcher in the regular season and the postseason. But he definitely wasn’t dominant. Plus, you’re forgetting the fact that much of the “myth of Ortiz” is based upon his World Series play where he hit .455/.576/.795, making him one of the greatest WS hitters of all time.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

No way in hell Jack Morris gets in without Game 7 – his “legend” is just as much based on the postseason as Papi’s.

The_BaseballKid
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Whitey Ford has 7 less career bWAR than Andy Pettitte in only 150 fewer innings. If postseason didn’t factor in his election than I don’t understand why he is considered a “no doubt about it HOFer” while Pettitte is not.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

Ford also retired with 78 RA9-WAR.

The_BaseballKid
6 years ago

Very cool. I am unfamiliar with this stat and am interested in figuring out why it is so much different than bWAR.

PC1970Member since 2024
6 years ago

They didn’t have WAR when Whitey Ford was inducted. He’s a guy, like Jim Palmer, that was considered, at the time he pitched, much better than he likely was. Due to playing on very good teams, which really helped his W-L record & lowered his ERA.

I don’t think anyone wants to re-visit Ford’s HOF case, but, using him as a benchmark for Pettite is shaky.

Mac
6 years ago

Pettitte returning to Houston, and getting Clemens to come along with him, is one of my favorite stories from the mid-2000’s. The 2005 season was extraordinary. Oswalt, Clemens, and Pettitte finished 5th, 6th, and 8th in pitcher WAR that year, one of the best rotations of the 2000’s. Was so great seeing it happen on a team not based in Boston or New York.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
6 years ago

I’d vote yes, but then again,
(a) I’m a big hall guy, and
(b) I disagree with the stated goal of “improve the institution’s standards, or at least to maintain them by identifying and (hopefully) admitting players at least as good as the average Hall of Famer at the position.” I think it’s possible to be a worthy HOFer while being in the lower 50% of people already in. [shrugs] Whatever though, reasonable people can differ.

mookie monster
6 years ago

Agree on (b), it’s strange to think we need to be approaching some sort of singularity of excellence with each subsequent player we admit to the Hall. Why?

Disagree on Pettitte, regardless, but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. If he’s in, I feel like you may as well shrug and put Bernie Williams and Posada in, too. What the hell.

KidB
6 years ago

Yeah, I really agree with this. For me, if you compare favorably with the average Hall of Famer, you’re obviously in. The cutoff is somewhere below the average; where exactly that is is the question. I think Pettitte is the worst of the pitchers from the era I would put in the Hall.

Someone compared Pettitte the Buehrle in the comments, which I think is worth addressing. Pettitte had better peak seasons by both fWAR and rWAR. If you average bWAR, fWAR, and WARP, Pettitte wins by a large margin. But also, I wouldn’t really mind if Buehrle were voted in. 61.4 RA9-WAR is damn good.

cookiedabookieMember since 2024
6 years ago

Agree on B. Especially when it comes to pitchers, who have the highest JAWS of any position. There are a ton of pitchers overlooked because the HoF voters have unnecessary high standards for pitchers in the last 50 years.

mookie monster
6 years ago

The Hall of Very Good should be named in honor of Andy Pettitte.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  mookie monster

Omar Vizquel would make it first ballot.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mookie monster

My first choice for naming rights goes to Chuck Finley, who somehow piled up 56 fWAR while never topping 5.1 wins in a season (one time he got 5.1, another time 5.0). I’d also nominate Jack Morris as a similar candidate, but Jack Morris is an actual Hall of Famer now which might make it a little awkward.

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  mookie monster

I’ve always thought of Johnny Damon as my HoVG measuring stick, but I like Pettitte for a similar-level pitcher.

rosen380
6 years ago
Reply to  mookie monster

Just to throw two more names in the hat– Jimmy Wynn and Mike Cameron. Both were over 50 fWAR and both got zero HoF votes. Sure there isn’t a lot of difference between 0% and the <2% that similarly valued players in similar PAs like Chet Lemon and Jack Clark and Norm Cash got.

But zero is zero. Give one or both of them *something* 🙂

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  mookie monster

I vote Omar Vizquel, Benito Santiago, Andres Galarraga and Eric Davis (had he not been plagued by injury).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

By fWAR he stacks up okay on the the career metric, but the peak is just not strong enough and it’s the peak that I think is the most important thing. It’s a really big difference between him and Halladay. I’m not even sure I prefer Pettite over Dwight Gooden. But the problem is that Pettite, because he’s a borderline candidate and played for the Yankees, is going to be there for the full 10 years. Jay’s going to have to find new things to say about him forever.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“But the problem is that Pettite, because he’s a borderline candidate and played for the Yankees, is going to be there for the full 10 years.”

Maybe but there are plenty of borderline Yankees that didn’t last 10 years on the ballot:

Bernie Williams: Fell off after the 2nd ballot
Posada: One and done
Guidry: Fell off after the 9th ballot
Nettles: Fell off after the 4th ballot
Randolph: One and done
Munson: Lasted 15 ballots but under current rules would have fallen off after the 3rd

Mattingly’s probably the best example of a borderline Yankee who lasted the full 10+ years on the ballot. Not sure if there are others.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

I seem to recall that Posada and Bernie Williams were on some very crowded ballots, though.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The year that Williams fell off, there were only 6.5 votes per ballot. So plenty of room to include him. Posada was more crowded, with about 8.2 votes per ballot.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This false narrative that playing for the Yankees gives you a boost in HOF or awards voting really needs to be retired. Is there even a single recent example of a borderline Yankee getting a boost in awards or HOF voting?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

I haven’t heard that for award voting. although I’m sure that narrative is out there. For Hall of Fame cases, I can’t think of a single one where playing on the Yankees made a difference in getting into the hall of fame but those Yankees teams and their stars were definitely celebrated in a way that other teams were not. It is probably no more than a boost of about 5-10%, which mostly does things like help Mariano Rivera get a unanimous selection (and maybe Jeter too) or helps a guy like Pettite who is borderline candidate hang around for a while.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“but those Yankees teams and their stars were definitely celebrated in a way that other teams were not”

They won 4 WS in five years, and were within three outs of making it 5 WS in six years. That team is the most successful team that any of us have ever seen. Despite this unprecedented contemporary level of success have those players really been unduly celebrated? Only Jeter and Rivera will be HOFers from that group. Also, none of the players won any major awards that required voting with two exceptions: Jeter’s ROY in 1996 (note, this was before the team was celebrated), and Clemens’ Cy Young in 2001 (Clemens wasn’t the most deserving AL pitcher that year, but three of the four pitchers ahead of him in WAR that year were also Yankees (Mussina led the league, and Pettitte was second.

“It is probably no more than a boost of about 5-10%”

Is there any actual evidence for this?

“which mostly does things like help Mariano Rivera get a unanimous selection (and maybe Jeter too) or helps a guy like Pettite who is borderline candidate hang around for a while.”

1. Mariano is universally considered the best ever by a large margin at his position. Mariano was so good even voters who dislike the Yankees had to vote for him.

2. I’m willing to bet Jeter will not be a unanimous decision because the media narrative about him has long been that he is overrated. We shall see…

3. Pettitte is evidence against your argument. Pettitte is legitimately a borderline candidate as this article does a good job to show. Despite being a real borderline candidate Pettitte has not gotten any support among the voters. If he is getting a 5-10% boost for being a Yankee, then the entirety of his support is Yankee boost. Evidence for a Yankees boost would be non-borderline players being kept on the ballot. This does not happen. In fact borderline Yankees routinely fall off the ballot (Randolph, Posada, Munson, Nettles, etc.).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

I love Andy, but I really don’t think he’s a borderline candidate.

He’s as firmly ensconced a HoVG guy as there is.

jgrub7
6 years ago

Pettitte really is borderline, and probably IS the line. How much better than him does a player have to be to make the HOF? 250+ wins, 60 career bWAR, 5x WS Champ.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

I think he’s the line where anyone clearly better than him should be a Hall of Famer, but he himself is firmly not one.

(And I LOVE Andy)

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

“I haven’t heard that for award voting. although I’m sure that narrative is out there.”

Bill James actually looked into it in one of his Baseball Abstracts and found that Yankee players had won fewer awards than one would expect based on their overall success as a team.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago

how many of these guys used steroids? keep them away from the game forever. cheaters. shame them from ever being around the game.

Cave Dameron
6 years ago

He’s a fringe HOF player at best, and he is a steroid user. People seem to be lenient on Pettitte’s PED usage because he says he only took it recover from an injury, which is a pretty suspect statement. The rest of the players on the Mitchell report juiced for a number of years, and I don’t see any reason to give the benefit of doubt to a guy who knowingly cheated and only apologized after getting caught 5 years later. He says he only tried steroids for a little bit and then stopped, sure you did Pettitte.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

This would be a stronger argument if Pettitte were ever popped for steroids.

The only accusation was HGH. He then freely admitted to it, saying it was to recover from a (known) elbow injury.

Either way, he’s clearly on the outside looking in for me.

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago

Perhaps this is a case of exceeding low expectations, but Pettitte at least didn’t treat the fans like they were idiots, which is more than can be said for the majority of players who have been caught.

B N
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Hey, Clemens is an upstanding citizen with such excellent morals. In fact, his trainer was so impressed he even saved some of the steroid needles as keepsakes! It was in no way insulting to anyone’s intelligence to say that everyone misremembered and were simply injecting him with imported B12.

And Barry Bonds is just a guy who liked a roomier hat (and forehead) over the years. Happens to a lot of men as they age. Metabolism slows down, put on a few pounds, grow a few hat sizes… Nothing at all suspicious about that.

But seriously, I feel like this could have gone much smoother if they could just stop with the charade. They could be like, “Hey, I used from 1997-2008, so throw out those numbers, and let me in the hall.” Which they could both say honestly, and the only casualty would be Bonds’ Home Run title which would revert back to Hank Aaron. (the single season HR title might get a bit dicey though…)

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

The Astros only cheated in the regular season of 2017 but never in the playoffs and stopped cold turkey in 2018 and 2019. At least that’s what I’ve been told

Cave Dameron
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I’m sure they just stopped doing it because it felt wrong.

kds
6 years ago

“… Had a career (BABiP) of .312 against a league average of .298…” That’s known as the Jeter Effect.

jgrub7
6 years ago

Just an interesting fact. There have been just 15 pitchers in MLB history with 250+ wins and a 0.600 win percentage. All but 3 are in the Hall of Fame (Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, and C.C. Sabathia).

jgrub7
6 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

After Justin Verlander and Zack Greinke, who currently sit at 225 (0.639) and 205 (0.625) wins respectively, we are probably not going see another player make that club. Also for reference, there are currently 18 members of the 3,000K club.

redsoxu571
6 years ago

“The work with Clemens began to rub off on Pettitte.” That line made me laugh, as there are some cynical ways one could run with it, haha.

Pettitte had a terrific career, and I wish people who support “close but not quite” cases for the Hall would accept that being in the “Hall Of Very Good” is no insult. Pettitte very much is not a HOFer unless you craft your HOF standards to fit him in, a HOF gerrymandering if you will, but I’m pretty sure every up-and-coming pitcher from now until the end of the sport would eagerly take his overall career.

Mike NMN
6 years ago

Pettitte is the kind of guy most GM’s would have been thrilled to have drafted. Hardworking, durable, a solid #3 who could occasionally pitch like an ace–there isn’t a rotation that couldn’t have used him. I agree with Jay. He’s not quite there as a Hall of Famer. On a season by season basis, reminds me more of some of the effective pitchers the Yankees had in the 1950s

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I’d say he’s the definition of a #2 – any given year, you could expect somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 wins, assuming good health.

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016
6 years ago

“From 1998-2000… 4.42 ERA (105 ERA+)”

I know Runs per Game are climbing back up there, and maybe my mind is still in the 2013-2014 “No One Scores” era, but that ERA and ERA+ just seem crazy to me!

edelmanfanclub
6 years ago

Mark Buehrle on a good team, IMO. Both great lefties but not HOF material. Definitely borderline. I dont hold the PEDs against him, but the voters pretty much have to after continually giving Bonds and Clemens the finger.

martyvan90Member since 2026
6 years ago

Jay, thanks for a thorough review of one of my favorite Yankees. Great article and for the most part fair comments.

The Duke
6 years ago

He should at least stay on the ballot for 10 years to get a complete review. By the end of his tenure, the PED issue may be looked at differently.

But his Counting stats are worthy of future consideration imo. Right now I am a No

biminatorMember since 2024
6 years ago

Pettite’s third in postseason strikeouts now, right? Verlander passed him and Smoltz this year.

rosen380
6 years ago

“Ten times he made at least 32 starts, a mark that’s tied for seventh in the post-1994 strike era. ”

7th sounds *really* good, but 1995-2019 only 36 pitchers even started 1 game in ten different seasons.

His neighbors on the list:
11 Barry Zito
10 Derek Lowe
10 James Shields
10 Jamie Moyer
10 Jon Lester
10 Livan Hernandez
10 Zack Greinke
9 Bronson Arroyo
9 Dan Haren
9 Jon Garland

Lester and Greinke are still chugging along, so might distance themselves from Pettitte a bit, but all-in-all I’m not certain that this “comp” list helps HoF Pettitte’s resume…

PC1970Member since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

I’d like to see who is over 11? JV is at 12, for example. Who are the other 5?

Not sure what it means, other than a guy that had many full seasons where he didn’t get hurt & took the ball every 5th day. Obviously, that’s a good thing, but, that doesn’t get you in the HOF.

Also, don’t like the arbitrary # of 32 & the start-end dates? Why not make it 30? or 34? Why not go back to 1985? 1990? Clemens had 8 in the 1994-2019 time span..but, had 6 prior to 1994. Big Unit, Glavine, Moose, Maddux, etc are all in the same boat with years not counting because they’re outside the arbitrary time frame. Lastly, because it’s current, guys in mid-career are short changed.

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Maddux actually had 13, so he’s one of the seven. He had six such years before and would have had 32 starts in 94 (25) and probably 95 (28) if not for the strike. So that is 19 total, with the strike cutting into his chances.

You could say almost the same for Glavine, except for he had five before this period, 12 during it, and with 29 starts in 95 was in better position to get 32 that year.

cookiedabookieMember since 2024
6 years ago

Since integration in 1947, among pitchers with at least 2500 IP, Pettitte is 15th in fWAR per 200 innings, and tenth among pitchers with 3000+ IP. Eight people ahead of him are in the Hall, Clemens and Schilling are on the Ballot, Verlander and Grienke are active, leaving Kevin Brown and Bret Saberhagen as players with better fWAR/200 and looked over for the Hall. Brown is a huge omission, and Saberhagen had almost 800 fewer innings.

He’s 24th in fWAR, and only seven guys above him aren’t in the Hall – Clemens, Schilling, Verlander, Brown, along with compilers Tommy John (3.4) and Jim Kaat (3.1), and Rick Reuschel. Unless you’re saying that there should be fewer than 25, or 15, or 10 pitchers are HoF-worthy in a 72 year period, he should be a no-doubter.

HurtyaMember since 2020
6 years ago

Have you ever considered doing something like fJAWS? Seems like his JAWS number using fWAR, rather than bWAR, would be 52.3. That’s a pretty significant difference – still under the average but a much better case.