JAWS and the 2021 Hall of Fame Ballot: Andy Pettitte
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2021 Hall of Fame ballot. Originally written for the 2019 election, it has been updated to reflect recent voting results as well as additional research. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
As much as Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, and Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte was a pillar of the Joe Torre-era Yankees dynasty. The tall Texan lefty played such a vital role on 13 pinstriped playoff teams and seven pennant winners — plus another trip to the World Series during his three-year run with Houston — that he holds several major postseason records. In fact, no pitcher ever started more potential series clinchers, both in the World Series and the postseason as a whole.
For as important as Pettitte was to the “Core Four” (Williams always gets the short end of the stick on that one) that anchored five championships from 1996 to 2009 — and to an Astros team that reached its first World Series in ’05 — he seldom made a case as one of the game’s top pitchers. High win totals driven by excellent offensive support helped him finish in the top five of his leagues’ Cy Young voting four times, but only three times did he place among the top 10 in ERA or WAR, and he never ranked higher than sixth in strikeouts. He made just three All-Star teams.
Indeed, Pettitte was more plow horse than racehorse. A sinker- and cutter-driven groundballer whose pickoff move was legendary, he was a championship-level innings-eater, a grinder (his word) rather than a dominator, a pitcher whose strong work ethic, mental preparation, and focus — visually exemplified by his peering in for the sign from the catcher with eyes barely visible underneath the brim of his cap — compensated for his lack of dazzling stuff. Ten times he made at least 32 starts, a mark that’s tied for seventh in the post-1994 strike era. Within that span, his total of 10 200-inning seasons is tied for fourth, and his 13 seasons of qualifying for the ERA title with an ERA+ of 100 or better is tied for first with two other lefties, Mark Buehrle (a newcomer to this year’s ballot) and CC Sabathia. He had his ups and downs in the postseason, but only once during his 18-year career (2004, when he underwent season-ending elbow surgery) was he unavailable to pitch once his team made the playoffs.
Even given Pettitte’s 256 career wins, he takes a back seat to two other starters on the ballot (Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling) who were better at missing bats and preventing runs, and who also had plenty of postseason success. Both of those pitchers have reasons why voters might exclude them from their ballots even while finding them statistically qualified, and the same is true for Pettitte, who was named in the 2007 Mitchell Report for having used human growth hormone to recover from an elbow injury. Between those dents and dings and the additional presence of both Roy Halladay and Mike Mussina, Pettitte received just 9.9% in his 2019 ballot debut, and even on a less crowded slate, his share only increased to 11.3% last year. He seems unlikely to make much headway towards 75% barring a significant change in the electorate’s attitudes towards PEDs.
About those wins: Regular readers know that I generally avoid dwelling upon pitcher win totals, because in this increasingly specialized era, they owe as much to adequate offensive, defensive, and bullpen support as they do to a pitcher’s own performance. While one needn’t know how many wins Pettitte amassed in a season or a career to appreciate his true value, those totals have affected the popular perception of his career.
| Pitcher | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Andy Pettitte | 60.2 | 34.1 | 47.2 |
| Avg. HOF SP | 73.3 | 50.0 | 61.6 |
| W-L | SO | ERA | ERA+ |
| 256-153 | 2,448 | 3.85 | 117 |
Pettitte was born on June 15, 1972 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His father Tom, a police sergeant, built a mound in the family’s back yard and began teaching his son by using a library book that showed how Nolan Ryan gripped his pitches. When Andy was eight, the family moved to Deer Park, Texas, a suburb of Houston, where Tom coached Andy’s teams right up until high school. Pettitte stood over six feet tall by his junior year at Deer Park High School, with a fastball in the low 80s and an advanced feel for mixing his pitches. By the time he was a senior, he stood 6-foot-5, but was pudgy enough to play center and nose tackle on the football team.
Though Pettitte received scholarship offers from Louisiana State University and other schools, the Yankees drafted him in the 22nd round in 1990. He did not sign, instead choosing to attend San Jacinto Junior College for a year, where he played for future Rice University coach Wayne Graham, who called him “a left-handed Roger Clemens.” The comparison resonated, for not only had Pettitte grown up idolizing Clemens, but Graham had coached the right-hander at San Jacinto in 1981. Graham helped transform Pettitte into a legitimate pitching prospect with a 91-93 mph fastball and better conditioning. The Yankees retained his rights up until a week before the 1991 draft, and ultimately landed him for an $80,000 bonus just before the signing deadline.
Pettitte split his first professional season (1991) between the Yankees’ Gulf Coast and New York-Penn League affiliates; at the latter stop, he crossed paths with Posada, also 19 years old and still primarily a second baseman. The pair spent 1992 together at A-level Greensboro of the South Atlantic League, where they were eventually joined by an 18-year-old Jeter, the Yankees’ 1992 first-round pick. At Greensboro, Pettitte posted a 2.20 ERA and 7.0 strikeouts per nine, and in each of his next two minor league seasons, he kept his ERAs near or below 3.00; he spent most of 1993 at High-A Prince William, with a taste of Double-A Albany-Colonie, where he returned for the start of 1994 before heading to Triple-A Columbus, where he posted a 2.98 ERA and a modest 5.7 strikeouts per nine.
In the spring of 1995, Pettitte placed 49th on Baseball America’s Top 100 prospects list, but lost the battle to be the Yankees’ fifth starter to Sterling Hitchcock and was sent to the bullpen; he made five relief appearances, briefly returned to Columbus, then joined the big club’s rotation when Jimmy Key suffered a shoulder injury that required surgery. He enjoyed a very solid rookie campaign, going 12-9 with a 4.17 ERA (111 ERA+) and 4.01 FIP in 175 innings en route to 2.9 WAR, helping the Yankees make the playoffs for the first time since 1981. Manager Buck Showalter gave him the ball to start Game 2 of the Division Series against the Mariners; Pettitte allowed two runs through six innings before being touched up for two more in the seventh, including the go-ahead run. The Yankees won the game in 15 innings but ultimately the lost series. The 23-year-old southpaw finished third in the AL Rookie of the Year voting, which was won by the Twins’ Marty Cordova.
Pettitte produced one of the biggest seasons of his career in 1996: 34 starts, 221 innings, a 3.87 ERA (129 ERA+), and an AL-high 21 wins, the last thanks to a robust 5.6 runs per game of offensive support. His 5.8 WAR ranked eighth in the AL. He did all of this while rotation-mate David Cone missed four months due to an aneurysm in his arm, Key served two DL stints, and Kenny Rogers scuffled. Pettitte made his first All-Star team and finished a very close second in the AL Cy Young race behind the Blue Jays’ Pat Hentgen, but not before helping the Yankees to their first championship in 18 years. After allowing four runs apiece in his Division and League Championship Series starts (both of which the Yankees won, 5-4) — he delivered eight strong innings on three days’ rest in the ALCS Game 5 clincher against the Orioles. The Braves pounded him for seven runs in 2.1 innings in the World Series opener, but Pettitte rebounded to pitch 8.1 innings of five-hit shutout ball opposite 1996 NL Cy Young winner John Smoltz, a performance that in 2015 he called “the best game of my career.” The Yankees eked out a 1-0 victory and took a three-games-to-two series lead; they would win in six games.
Though he won “only” 18 games, Pettitte actually had a better season in 1997, when he made a league-high 35 starts and threw a career-high 240.1 innings with a 2.88 ERA (156 ERA+, both good for fourth in the league) and just seven homers allowed (a league-best 0.3 per nine). His 8.4 WAR ranked second in the league behind the Cy Young-winning Clemens, but he finished just fifth in the voting. He was lousy in the postseason, getting rocked for 11 runs in 11.2 innings by the Indians in his Division Series starts, both losses. It would be five years before the Yankees took such an early vacation in October again.
In three major league seasons, Pettitte had established himself as one of the game’s top starters, thanks in part to his development of a nasty cut fastball. His 16.9 WAR for the period ranked sixth in the majors from 1995-1997 behind only Greg Maddux, Clemens, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and Pedro Martinez. He’d done it while pitching through a sore elbow, dating back to a three-inning relief stint in Baltimore on May 1, 1997, a day after getting torched for nine runs in one-plus inning. But whether it was his elbow or his over-reliance on his sinker-cutter combo at the expense of his curve and changeup, his performance took a significant step back even as the fate of the Yankees improved. From 1998-2000, while the Yankees won three straight championships, Pettitte averaged 32 starts and 204 innings, albeit with a 4.42 ERA (105 ERA+) and just a 1.53 strikeout-to-walk ratio, down from 2.21 for the three years prior. He was still good enough to average 2.8 WAR in that span, but the Yankees pondered trading him as he grew more expensive.
In July 1999, as the trade deadline loomed, the Yankees and Phillies neared a deal that would send Pettitte (then carrying a 5.65 ERA) to Philadelphia in exchange for three prospects including pitcher Adam Eaton and outfielder Reggie Taylor. In an organizational clash, Torre, pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre, and general manager Brian Cashman won out over owner George Steinbrenner and his cabal of Tampa-based advisors, who wanted to turn the rotation spot over to the immortal Ed Yarnall. Pettitte stayed, began working out with Clemens (who had been acquired in the spring) and allowed just three runs over his next four starts totaling 31 innings. That winter, he signed a three-year, $25.5 million extension with an $11.5 million club option for 2003.
As uneven as the 1998-2000 seasons were for Pettitte, he did place fourth in the AL Cy Young voting with the best of those years (2000: 19-9, 4.35 ERA, 3.6 WAR). During that stretch, he delivered eight quality postseason starts out of 11 with a combined 3.26 ERA; the Yankees went 10-1 in those starts, rallying to win even when he took early exits in Game 3 of the 1999 World Series against the Braves and Game 5 of the 2000 Division Series against the A’s. He threw seven shutout innings in Game 4 of the 1998 World Series against the Padres, helping the team complete a sweep, and made good starts in Games 1 and 5 in the 2000 “Subway Series” against the Mets. He left the latter tied at 2-2 through seven innings; the Yankees plated two runs in the ninth and Rivera closed it out for the team’s third straight championship.
The work with Clemens began to rub off on Pettitte. In 2001, his fastball showed more zip, he worked inside more often, posted career-best strikeout and walk rates (7.4 and 1.8 per nine), brought his ERA below 4.00 (3.99) with a FIP nearly a run lower (3.02), and made his second All-Star team. He pitched well in his first three postseason starts agains the A’s and Mariners, allowing just five runs in 20.2 innings, and hung with the Diamondbacks’ Johnson for six innings in his World Series Game 2 start, entering the seventh trailing 1-0 before serving up a three-run homer to Matt Williams.
After losing the first two games in Arizona, the Yankees won three straight in New York to position themselves for their fourth straight title. Pettitte again took the ball opposite Johnson but was pummeled for six runs in two-plus innings; on ESPN Radio’s international broadcast, analyst Rick Sutcliffe noticed that he was tipping his pitches by double-pumping on every fastball from the stretch. The Yankees didn’t discover the problem until it was too late; they lost both Game 6 and — thanks to a two-run rally against Rivera — Game 7 as well.
While elbow, back, and groin injuries sent Pettitte to the DL every year from 1999 through 2001, the 2002 season brought his first major injury, a bout of tendonitis that sidelined him for two months, from mid-April to mid-June. Limited to 22 starts, he nonetheless went 13-5 with a 3.27 ERA (135 ERA+ in 134.2 innings), and while he lasted just three innings in his lone postseason start against the Angels, the Yankees picked up his option that winter. Pettitte rewarded them with another strong, workhorse season, though his 21-8 record and 7.8 strikeouts per nine were flashier than the other numbers (4.02 ERA, 110 ERA+, 3.1 WAR, his fourth straight season between 3.1 and 3.6). In the best October showing of his career, he posted a 2.10 ERA in five starts, allowing more than two runs just once. He whiffed a postseason career high 10 Twins in his Division Series start, and came within one out of a shutout in Game 2 of the World Series before the Marlins plated an unearned run. Though he allowed just two runs (one earned) in seven innings in Game 6, Josh Beckett shut out the Yankees on five hits, giving the upstart Marlins a championship.
In December 2003, Pettitte shocked the baseball world by returning home to Texas. He did so by bypassing a three-year, $39 million offer from the Yankees in favor of a heavily backloaded, three-year, $31.5 million deal with the Astros. “He wanted to go home to Houston,” said Steinbrenner. “And I admire him for wanting to be with his family. He couldn’t do that in New York. He was a great competitor for me.”
Soon joined in Houston by Clemens, whom he’d coaxed out of retirement, Pettitte made just 15 starts in 2004 due to forearm woes that culminated in season-ending surgery to repair a torn flexor tendon. He returned better than ever in 2005, going 17-9 with a career-best 2.39 ERA (177 ERA+, with both marks second in the NL behind Clemens) and 6.8 WAR (fourth in the league). During one stretch in June and July, he allowed no more than one earned run in eight straight starts. His postseason performance wasn’t great (4.26 ERA in 25.1 IP), as he wound up on the losing end three times while making four quality starts. The Astros, in their first World Series appearance, were swept by the White Sox.
Pettitte made a league-high 35 starts in his final year in Houston, but battled elbow tendonitis, and his ERA ballooned to 4.20 (106 ERA+), with his WAR dipping to 1.5. He had other problems as well. In October 2006, the Los Angeles Times published a report citing an affidavit from former Yankees pitcher Jason Grimsley, who alleged that both Pettitte and Clemens had used performance-enhancing drugs, and that he himself had obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids, and human growth hormone from Brian McNamee, a former Yankees trainer who maintained a close working relationship with both pitchers. Pettitte vehemently denied the allegations, saying, “I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance on the baseball field before.”
In December, the 34-year-old lefty agreed to return to the Yankees on a one-year, $16 million deal with a $16 million player option for 2008. On September 19, near the end of a typical season (15-9, 4.05 ERA, 5.9 K/9, 3.8 WAR), he beat the Orioles with a seven-inning, one-run performance to claim the 200th victory of his career. His 6.1 shutout innings against the Indians in Game 2 of the Division Series went for naught when Joba Chamberlain was devoured by a horde of midges.
Feeling the pull of family and mulling retirement, Pettitte declined his player option, mainly to allow the team to free up a roster spot while he deliberated. On December 3, he agreed to return at that same salary, but nine days later, his name was among the 89 included in the Mitchell Report. Two days later, he admitted to injecting HGH obtained through McNamee to recover from his 2002 elbow injury. “In 2002 I was injured. I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow,” he said in a statement released to the Associated Press. “I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.”
Pettitte’s name remained in the headlines when Clemens appeared before Congress to challenge the findings pertaining to him in the report in February 2008. Pettitte said in a statement that Clemens had told him of using HGH nearly 10 years earlier, and that McNamee had told him that Clemens used steroids in 2003 or ’04. Clemens claimed Pettitte “misremembered.”
On the field, Pettitte scuffled. While his 4.54 ERA was not a career worst, his 97 ERA+ was; it was the only time in his 18-year career that he allowed runs at a worse-than-average clip (his 3.71 FIP, his best in three years, told a different story). The Yankees missed the playoffs for the first time since the 1994 players’ strike, which triggered a major spending spree; $420 million worth of commitments brought Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, and Mark Teixeira to the Bronx. Pettitte, working on an incentive-laden one-year deal, served as a solid number three starter behind the two newcomers, rebounding to a 4.16 ERA and 3.4 WAR, then turned in one of his most memorable postseason runs. Though his overall 3.52 ERA in five starts totaling 30.2 innings wasn’t remarkable, he joined the 2004 Red Sox’s Derek Lowe by winning three clinching games in a single postseason, over the Twins (Division Series), Angels (ALCS), and Phillies (World Series).
While he made the AL All-Star team on the strength of an 11-2, 2.70 ERA first half, Pettitte’s 2010 was abbreviated by a groin strain that sidelined him for two months and limited him to just one September start longer than four innings. Nonetheless, he turned in a pair of seven-inning, two-run starts in the Yankees’ Division Series Game 2 victory over the Twins and their ALCS Game 3 defeat by the Rangers. Again deliberating on the retirement question, he pulled the plug in early February, just before pitchers and catchers reported.
Though he sat out all of 2011, Pettitte could not stay retired. In March 2012, the 39-year-old southpaw quietly agreed to return to the Yankees — who had, in essence, left the light on for him — on a $2.5 million deal. He returned to the majors on May 13, and pitched as well as ever (3.22 ERA, 9.1 K/9) until a one-hopper off the bat of the Indians’ Casey Kotchman fractured his left fibula. After missing nearly three months, he made a three-start September tuneup followed by a pair of good postseason starts totaling five runs allowed in 13.2 innings. Alas, he wound up on the short end both times, and the Yankees bowed to the Tigers in the ALCS.
Still hankering for more, Pettitte returned for his age-41 season, and for the first time since 2009 made 30 starts, finishing with a 3.74 ERA and 2.2 WAR in 185.1 innings. Unlike Rivera, who received a grand farewell tour that culminated with Jeter and Pettitte pulling him from his final appearance, Pettitte didn’t announce his intentions until September 20, 2013. He threw seven innings of two-run ball against the Giants in his final Yankee Stadium start two days later, and then a complete-game five-hitter against the Astros in Houston, his home away from home, on September 28.
…
From a Hall of Fame standpoint, Pettitte’s claim rests on a high win total, very good run prevention after adjusting for his park and league, and a strong postseason resumé, all of which are worth a closer look. First, the wins. Pettitte’s total of 256 ranks 42nd all-time, and is higher than 32 of the 65 enshrined starters, including Halladay (203), and 2018 Modern Baseball Era Committee honoree Jack Morris (254). However, 256 wins does not guarantee a spot in the Hall; there are eight pitchers with more on the outside looking in, including Clemens (354) and a pair of pitchers who spent more than a quarter-century in the majors, Tommy John (288) and Jim Kaat (283).
Wins, of course, are the product not just of a pitcher’s skill at run prevention but also of the support he receives from his offense, his defense, and his bullpen. In Pettitte’s case, prior to his original retirement he received offensive support that was about 10 percent better than the park-adjusted league average. That’s according to research done for the Baseball Prospectus book Extra Innings by Colin Wyers and myself in the fall of 2011, with said support for all starters defined simply as the runs scored on the day (or night) the starter pitched, and therefore available via game logs back into the 19th century. Wyers and I found just 12 Hall of Fame starters with better support, led by Chief Bender (117).
Pettitte was less well-supported by his defenses, in that he had a .312 career batting average on balls in play where the MLB average was .298; his FIP (3.74) is thus lower than his ERA (3.85). Bullpen support? Pettitte and Rivera — the best ever at his job — combined to set a record for teaming up, with Rivera saving 72 of Pettitte’s wins, far beyond the 57 wins of Oakland’s Bob Welch–Dennis Eckersley combo.
Pettitte’s career ERA would be the second-highest in the Hall, in front of only Morris, but the adjustments for park and league are everything in this case. Pettitte has a 117-105 edge on Morris in ERA+. His 117 ERA+ matches that of Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry, who ranks 43rd among enshrined starters, and it’s two points better than Jim Bunning, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Fergie Jenkins, and Eppa Rixey, who are tied for 45th. The problem for Pettitte is that all of those pitchers except Bunning threw at least 1,000 more innings.
Postseason-wise, the frequency of the Yankees’ participation in the three-tiered playoff format whose introduction coincided with the start of Pettitte’s career helped him set records for starts (44), innings (276.2) and wins (19, against 11 losses); meanwhile, he’s fourth in strikeouts (183). While Pettitte certainly hit some high notes within that large body of work while helping the Yankees win five championships, he also had some duds, including seven starts with five or more runs allowed, only one of which went longer than five innings. His 3.81 postseason ERA is a ringer for his regular season mark; his 4.06 World Series ERA in 13 World Series starts (the second-highest total behind Whitey Ford’s 22) slightly worse; he’s tied for seventh in World Series strikeouts (56) and eighth in innings (77.2) and wins (five). His ERA in his record 12 potential postseason series clinchers: 3.95 (the Yankees won eight); in four potential World Series clinchers: 3.68 (the Yankees won three). Cool stuff, but he was more like the second coming of Andy Pettitte than he was Schilling or Madison Bumgarner.
In terms of WAR, Pettitte’s career total of 60.2 is 13.1 WAR short of the standard at the position. He’s 64th — 22 spots lower than his win total, remember — and behind 44 of the 65 enshrined starters. Among those elected by the BBWAA, only Ford (57.1) and Catfish Hunter (40.9) threw at least 3,000 innings, where Dazzy Vance (60.1) and Bob Lemon (48.2) fell just short, with Sandy Koufax (48.9) short of 2,500 and Dizzy Dean (46.0) short of 2,000. That’s not a great argument in Pettitte’s favor.
Nor is the fact that his 34.1 peak score is tied with Rixey and Dutch Leonard for 170th. Pettitte’s 47.2 JAWS ranks 91st, ahead of only Ford (45.8), Dean (45.0), Lemon (43.5), and Herb Pennock (41.3) among BBWAA honorees. Of the currently active starters whose progress towards Cooperstown I’ve been monitoring, he’s well behind Justin Verlander, Zack Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, and Max Scherzer, as well as Sabathia, who retired last year.
Thus, based upon both traditional and advanced metrics, Pettitte would represent a rather weak choice for the Hall of Fame — and I say that as somebody who had a considerable emotional investment in his career as a fan and would like nothing more than to find a rationale for electing him. I don’t see one, and that’s even while consigning his Mitchell Report-related transgressions to the “Wild West” era of the game’s drug problems, where if MLB couldn’t punish him, I don’t think voters should do so either.
Given all of that as well as the presence of two starters with stronger (albeit controversial) cases on the ballot in Clemens and Schilling, it’s tough to find a particularly compelling rationale to vote for Pettitte. Just 11.3% of voters did last year, and that was with ballot traffic clearing up considerably after back-to-back elections of four candidates. Voters using just 6.61 slots per ballot; they had ample space to include Pettitte, but did not.
Even with the elections of Mussina, Halladay, and perhaps Schilling pushing the door a bit more widely open for pitchers with fewer than 300 wins, Pettitte doesn’t figure to follow, as he was not of their caliber in terms of run prevention, nor was he as decorated and celebrated except when it came to World Series rings (which isn’t nothing). That said, it does appear as though Pettitte’s candidacy will persist, and although he’s probably not a fit for Cooperstown, flags fly forever, and he’ll always be fondly remembered in the Bronx.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Pettitte is a rich man’s Buehrle.
Interestingly, they’re back to back on JAWS.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml
Right next to fellow Hall of Very Good pitcher Sandy Koufax. As expected.
I see the 46 fWAR that Koufax put up in his six year peak as requiring a much different look than a career accumulator like Petite. Totals might be similar but the individual cases are extremely different.
If you think Koufax is Hall of Very Good you need to study up on your baseball history. Best pitcher of his generation.
Mr Gibson would beg to differ.
Not sure I think he is in either, but Pettitte does have about 8 more WAR on FG than BR putting him 24th since WWII. Ahead of Bunning, Glavine, Halladay, Marichal, Palmer, and Morris.
That difference is entirely down to FG using FIP and BR using RA to calculate pitcher WAR. Buehrle is one of a handful of pitchers who consistently outperformed their FIP for the duration of their careers, and is an excellent example of why I prefer FG for single season pitcher assessment but BR for full career assessment.
In Buehrle’s case his FIP overperformance is almost certainly due to his own prowess at fielding his position and controlling the running game. Unless they’ve updated it, the comment code here automatically blocks hyperlinks, but if you google “Curious Case Buehrle Grantland” you’ll find the analysis backing that up.
I know what the difference in bWAR and fWAR is, that is my point. It is hard for me to buy that Buehrle outperforming FIP is his own fielding ability and that makes up the 16 WAR difference between him and Pettitte, given that Pettitte also was legendary in controlling the running game. Buehrle beats Pettite by about 70 extra runs by DRS, pretty short of 160. Then there is that whole fame thing, 30 IP to 276 IP in the post season is not nothing.
That WAR difference exists only here, on BREF they’re virtually identical.
well the thing is in certain cases (like Pettittes) his defense for his whole career was bad. So I think that the fWAR vs. bWAR thing should be looked at on a case by case basis b/c I think fWAR is more representative for Pettitte.
Pettitte is a good test case for how much (if at all) voters value the postseason in determining induction. On regular season alone, he’s likely short. But doing well in another 276 innings against the best competition in the most important games of the season greatly improves his case.
(The PEDs are a confounding variable, though.)
Among current pitchers, Cole Hamels is a good comp as a non-flamethrowing lefty who has pitched at the level of a high #2 for most of his career and has a solid postseason track record. Without the PEDs, it will be interesting to see how he fares in the voting relative to Pettitte when the time comes.
Agree that the postseason success and the PEDs are factors that effect his, but could cancel each other out. If you were only looking at this regular season numbers I think he is on the verge, but just misses out.
Postseason determining induction? 1991 is one of two reasons Jack Morris is in the Hall, and I say that as a fan of his.
Does anyone know why Delmon Young wasn’t on the HOF ballot?
I’m guessing the hate-crime charge did him no favors, but there were more than a dozen eligible players (10 years in the majors, last played in 2015) who did not make the final ballot. Young, who had just 10 years in the majors, had even less remarkable stats than many others passed over including Alex Rios, Adam LaRoche, Corey Hart, and Dan Uggla.
A little surprised that Uggla and/or LaRoche didn’t make the list. Not that either would have sniffed HOF induction; both would be gone after a year on the ballot, but I could have seen either on the ballot over a couple of the names that did make the cut.
Thanks. I assumed everyone who was eligible appeared on the ballot.
I had assumed that as well. I wonder what the purpose is of culling the list rather than just letting the totals take their course.
Agreed – I think it would be nice to appear on the ballot if you meet the stated qualifications. It’s not like the voters will be taxed for hours to carefully consider the merits of Corey Hart before moving on to Jim Edmonds.
I expect his vote percentage to rise as boredom sets in. I doubt he ever cracks 45% though. Just another 7 (I think) years of listening to partisans making the case that Jeter and Rivera shouldn’t be the only Hall of Famers from the Yankees championship years, and that Wade Boggs doesn’t count.
Something similar to this happened in the NHL/hockey recently.
The 1980s Oilers dynasty already had Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, and Anderson inducted among skaters. Defenseman Kevin Lowe, a good but not great player who was never a postseason All-Star or close to winning the Norris Trophy, joined them.
Tim Raines? Mike Mussina? Joe Torre? Maybe Roger Clemens someday. Sheffield and Randy Johnson were on some of those later non-championship teams.
I don’t think Mussina won a championship with them, did he?
Yeah, I looked at it wrong. He came the year after the 2000 WS win and retired the year before the 2009 win. Talk about bad luck! He did pitch in two WS losses.
I think Roger Clemens will eventually be inducted. There is also Tim Raines, who might “not count” but he was on two championship teams with the Yankees. CC Sabathia was on the 2009 team, and he has a similar, if slightly better case than Pettite.
I think Sabathia has a real chance, although he wasn’t part of “that” championship team. Tim Raines is like Wade Boggs. Does it satisfy the partisans? Who knows.
Very similar over 18 years, except for 250 innings and 500 strikeouts and a Cy Young.
Sabathia started younger, Pettite played til 41.
They might end up bookending the dividing line, with Sabathia making it because of the 3093 strikeouts and the Cy Youngand Pettite falling short.
Sabathia seems like a sure bet to make it.
Good for a long time, very good peak, and he hit two of the magic numbers; 250 and 3000. Plus the Cy.
Hard to imagine a reason not to let him in.
I really hope Clemens won’t be. PED’s aside, he has pedophilia in his background, which I’m really not okay with.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/11/20/20972682/roger-clemens-mindy-mccready-ped-hall-of-fame-character-clause-mlb-hot-stove
While the details of the relationship with Mindy McCready may not be fully known, it is accepted that there was a relationship of some degree that started when she was under 18.
The mistake in your comment is the use of the word pedophilia. While this could have been an inappropriate underage relationship in the beginning (when it became sexual is not for sure), it doesn’t meet the definition of pedophile. Unfortunately that term gets used inappropriately extremely too often, either because people don’t understand it or because the term carries weight that they want to use.
The applicable term would be statutory rape.
If, that occurred at the beginning of the relationship.
Another guy in the Hall of the Very Good. I wish they’d open that place; I’d visit.
It just needs a “very good but not great” city to call home. Welcome to Grand Rapids!
All I ask is that every single person who ever votes for Pettitte also votes for Buehrle. I’d also put Buehrle in ahead of Pettitte on the strength of his 200 IP streak, but I’d understand if others would prioritize Pettitte’s playoff performance over that.
And both of them are a large part of the reason I really wish there was a standard deviation component to the JAWS comparisons, especially for SP, the position with far and away the highest average JAWS score, and one which is right there with CF & RF for total WAR. I feel like “only induct players better than the average” is a self-defeating process that essentially punishes players for being born too late. To me, a better rule of thumb would be anyone above the average JAWS and anyone below the average but within one standard deviation of it.
The standard deviation for starting pitcher JAWS is 18.9, so one standard deviation lower than the mean would be 42.7, which is Kenny Rogers/Jimmy Key/Mickey Lolich/David Wells territory. Not a very workable point for cutoffs as it would cover the top 123 in JAWS.
I will never understand why the HOF argument for Schilling isn’t also made for Lolich. They have the exact same career numbers and Schilling pitched 4 more seasons. Sure Schilling had the bloody sock but Lolich beat in his prime Bob Gibson in game 7. When the counting numbers are the same but the computer numbers are different you have to think the system is flawed.
Different eras, different ways to accrue counting stats.
Lolich was a product of the 4 man rotation with more starts and longer ones. He had 40 starts several years and was always a starter. From ’70-74, he pitched over 300 innings peaking at 378. 29 Complete games. One season of 300 K’s.
Schilling didn’t get to start until he hit Philly at 25 and never got more than 35 starts and often 20-something. He still managed 3100 K’s vs 2800 for Lolich. 300K’s four times. In less and shorter starts.
Try comparing them against their contemporaries.
Lolich was very good but in the context of their times Schilling was way better, as demonstrated by the big WAR differential. If nothing else, he needed more innings to get less strikeouts.
Different times separate the two.
I’m all for comparing them to their own eras but even then they’re still the same. Lolich and Schilling were both very good pitchers in their times but there are so many ahead of them already in the HOF from their eras. Lolich pitched in an era where starters were expected to go more than 6 to be considered a quality start and didn’t have specialists in the bullpen just waiting. I get different times but both are the same pitcher in their respective times. If you could switch them out I don’t see much of a difference.
Holy shit, that’s a preposterously large SD, nearly 30% of the total. Is there another position for which it’s even remotely close to that magnitude?
I think I may have asked this in a chat a while back, but would it be possible to put those SD bands up on the BREF JAWS pages along with the means? I feel like that would at least give more context to those middle of the road, slightly below the average players. Give us a big band of gray instead of a hard black line.
The HOF is full of bad inductees, Jack Morris being at or very near the top of the list. If your argument for Pettitte’s induction begins with a sentence containing Jack Morris in any way, shape, or form? Uh, no. Add in the admitted PED usage and Pettitte’s a complete non-starter for me. I’ll take Schilling every time.
On the other hand, Pettitte IS the subject of one of the great rants of all time, “Andy Pettitte pitches with his mouth agape and he has the eyes of a goat. Just because he glares at Posada like he’s trying to burn a whole through Jorge’s eyebrows with his mind doesn’t necessarily mean he’s more focused than the other eight a-holes wearing pinstripes on the field”.
So he’s got that going for him. Which is nice.
Andy Pettitte is basically Jack Morris with PED’s…
The PEDs I’ll grant you. The comparison to Morris? About as wrong as one can get.
“The work with Clemens began to rub off on Pettitte” is a pretty prescient statement in all the ways
I would put lefties Jim Kaat and Tommy John in the hall before Pettitte and Buehrle but I’m more of a that close to 300 should be in, I think John would’ve won 300 had he not missed a season.
If people feel the need for a Yankee pitcher from championship years go way back and get Guidry. Also a lefty and way better than Pettitte. Also not a HOFer but I’d be more on board with “Louisiana Lightning” than “Andy”.
Much shorter career but decidedly more dominant. Actually a fair candidate for the committee to consider. The Cy win and nominations stand out.
Obviously pitcher wins is a very flawed stat- at most a starting pitcher controls about 30-40% of the outcome of a game.
That said, pitchers like Pettitte and Sabathia were extremely valuable to the Yankees because they were (a) very good, and (b) pitched a lot of innings. They were more valuable to a good-hitting team than say, someone like Blake Snell, who, on an inning-by-inning basis is better than them, but would be less valuable in that specific context.
I think one thing that gets overlooked is just how historically bad the Yankees defense were during their dynasty years. Yes, Pettitte received a lot of run support, but he also had Jeter, Posada, and Bernie starting at key defensive positions. Just like at what he did when he got to Houston and was surrounded by a stellar defense.
I also believe this is the same reason that it took Mussina so long to get elected. Playing half of his career in New York really made his career ERA look worse than it really should be.
100% against it. I would even rather have transcendent talents who lacked longevity (Santana, Lincecum) than guys who were just pretty good for a really long time. A good not great pitcher with a PED issue? Sounds like the pitching version of Rafael Palmeiro.
Is the reason that fWAR for Pettitte is 68 while bWAR is 60 a FIP vs. runs allowed methodology type thing? B/c 68 WAR is certainly more impressive along HOF lines. Just wondering if that’s the case. Also there is something to be said for Pettitte’s great defense and pick off move.
Pettitte was a fine starting pitcher, among the top five percent of all time, but comes up just a little short of HOF standards. I do think he had a chance to make the HOF if a couple things went a bit differently at the backend of his career — one out of his control, one in his control.
The out-of-his-control one was an injury. He was putting up another fine season in 2010 (11-2, 2.88 ERA through 18 starts), when an injury basically ended his regular season outside of a few late year tune ups. He then retired, likely costing himself 30+ starts in 2011. He returned in 2012, but the late start to his season, and the time off over an almost two year period from July 2010 to May 2012, limited his appearances and impacted his conditioning, resulting in only 12 starts. His retirement season and the cascading impact very well could have cost him about 50 starts in total over 2011 and 2012. It would be 60 starts if not for the 2010 injury, but that one was out of his control. The lost 50 starts probably would have added another 20-25 wins to his career total, taking him up into the 275-280 range, not including the 19 he also had in the postseason. He was right at 300’s doorstep. He’d also have added another 5 or so WAR on both his bWAR and fWAR lines, with the later easily going over 70, which is in the legitimate HOF-discussion territory.
Last, if he was sitting in that 275-280 range, and still pitching effectively at age 41, down to a shut out in his final start, is it possible that he might have pulled a Jamie Moyer and kept pitching for at least a couple more seasons to get over 300 career regular season wins? The pull of his family was real, but the strong whispers of getting into the HOF might have been enough for a man who viewed himself as a grinder to grind out a couple more seasons. Being a lefty with an excellent cutter, he likely would have remained effective. There was no evidence he was about to fall off a cliff. My point is not that Pettitte should be in the HOF. He falls short, but I do believe that injury he suffered in July 2010, which he mentioned as a contributing factor to his retirement, set in motion a decision to retire that may have prevented him from compiling his way into the HOF.
Filed under #WhatIf. He has company in that file!