JAWS and the 2022 Hall of Fame Ballot: David Ortiz
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2022 Hall of Fame ballot. It was initially written for The Cooperstown Casebook, published in 2017 by Thomas Dunne Books and has been updated for FanGraphs. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
“Papi is even more famous than he is great, occupying his own space in baseball’s cultural catalog with the likes of Mickey Mantle, Dizzy Dean, Satchel Paige, and others who layered personality upon skill in outsized measures. October has much to do with that space.” — Tom Verducci, Sports Illustrated David Ortiz Special Retirement Tribute, October 2016
In December 2002, the Twins released David Ortiz, which is to say that they looked at the bulky, oft-injured 27-year-old slugger coming off his first 20-homer season, considered the possibility of doubling or tripling his $950,000 salary in his first year of arbitration eligibility and thought, “Nope.” Five weeks later, and two months into his new job, Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein signed Ortiz on the cheap as one of several potential first base and designated hitter options.
The rest is history. Ortiz became one of the most important and beloved players in the history of the Red Sox, homering more times than any Boston player besides Ted Williams and serving as the common thread and offensive centerpiece of the franchise’s 2004, ’07 and ’13 World Series winners. In addition to producing some of the most dominant postseason performances of any hitter in any era, “Big Papi” became an icon throughout the sport, a mentor to younger players, and an ambassador for the city in the wake of the horrific Boston Marathon bombing.
Such was Ortiz’s status that he received a retirement tour on par with the sendoffs of first-ballot Hall of Famers Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken Jr., Chipper Jones, Mariano Rivera, and Derek Jeter. Yet a berth in Cooperstown circa 2022 or beyond is hardly guaranteed, as Ortiz will have to overcome a few obstacles. First, he took 88% of his career plate appearances as a designated hitter, considerably higher than Edgar Martinez (72%), Frank Thomas (57%), or Paul Molitor (44%), all elected by the BBWAA in part for what they did while DHing. For voters mindful of WAR and JAWS, he does not fare tremendously well when compared to enshrined first baseman (DH candidates are compared at the fielding position where they accrued the most value, which for Ortiz is first base). Finally, he’s been connected to performance-enhancing drugs via his reportedly having failed the supposedly anonymous 2003 survey test.
With regards to the advanced stats, it must be acknowledged that JAWS doesn’t capture Ortiz’s postseason portfolio or his unique spot in baseball history, and that regardless of the metrics, many voters will see the 2019 election of Martinez as paving the way for that of Ortiz. As for the drugs, commissioner Rob Manfred issued an important caveat regarding that survey test result near the end of Ortiz’s career. While the opposition to his candidacy shouldn’t be taken for granted, neither should his fame.
| Player | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| David Ortiz | 55.3 | 35.2 | 45.3 |
| Avg HOF 1B | 66.0 | 42.4 | 54.2 |
| H | HR | AVG/OBP/SLG | OPS+ |
| 2,472 | 541 | .286/.380/.552 | 141 |
Ortiz was born on November 18, 1975 in the baseball hotbed of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The oldest of four children of Enrique Ortiz — a former semipro player who turned to selling auto parts when he needed to support his family — and Angela Rosa Arias, he starred in basketball at Estudia Espallat High School as well as baseball. After his 1992 graduation, the Mariners signed the tall, powerful 17-year-old, who took his mother’s maiden name upon turning pro.
After spending 1993 in the Dominican Summer League, Arias came stateside and struggled so mightily in the Rookie-level Arizona League that the Mariners had him repeat the level, hardly a sign of future stardom. He got his career back on track, making the All-Star teams of the Arizona League in 1995 and the Midwest League in ’96. Just prior to the August 31 trading deadline, the Mariners bolstered their infield by acquiring Twins third baseman Dave Hollins for a player to be named later. Two weeks later, Arias was sent to Minnesota, and by the time he debuted for the organization in 1997, he was David Ortiz again — literally the player to be named later.
The 6-foot-4, 230-pound lefty tore through three minor league stops in 1997, hitting a combined .317/.372/.568 with 31 homers before making a 15-game cameo with the Twins. Baseball America rated him as Minnesota’s number two prospect heading into 1998, and he opened the season as their starting first baseman. Though he started strongly, a broken right wrist cost him two months and sapped his power. He finished at .277/.371/.446 (111 OPS+) with nine homers in 86 games, a solid showing for a 22-year-old rookie.
The Twins were not enamored. Manager Tom Kelly, who had a reputation for being particularly hard on younger players, often sat Ortiz against lefties or lifted him late in games for pinch-hitters or defensive replacements. As Ortiz later wrote about Kelly in Papi: My Story, “It didn’t take me long to figure out he was the kind of guy who could make your life miserable if he didn’t like you. It also didn’t take me long to figure out he didn’t like me. At all.”
Despite Ortiz’s power potential, his poor conditioning and awkwardness around first base opened the door for slick-fielding, light-hitting Doug Mientkiewicz. Rather than shift Ortiz to the DH spot opened by Molitor’s retirement, the Twins sent him back to Triple-A Salt Lake City, where he languished despite mashing. He went 0-for-20 in an overdue September call-up; Mienkiewicz hit a grim .229/.324/.330.
Ortiz regained his roster spot and spent the next three seasons DHing, hitting a combined .265/.344/.473 for a 109 OPS+, showing glimpses of his awesome power but battling injuries. He homered 10 times in 130 games in 2000, and 18 in 89 games in ’01, missing time due to another fracture in his right wrist. His .272/.339/.500 showing with the career-high 20 homers in 2002 came in just 125 games, as he missed over three weeks due to surgery to remove bone chips in his left knee. Still, the Twins remained fixated on his shortcomings. Though his pull-happy approach provided plenty of pop, he drove Kelly crazy by refusing to focus on hitting to the opposite field. As he told the Boston Globe’s Jackie MacMullan in 2004, “Something with my swing was not right in Minnesota. I could never hit for power. Whenever I took a big swing, they’d say to me, ‘Hey, hey, what are you doing?’ So I said, ‘You want me to hit like a little bitch then I will.'”
By then, Ortiz had enough service time to qualify for arbitration, but the budget-minded Twins, who had ranked 26th out of 30 teams in 2002 payroll — yet still won 94 games and the AL Central — were unwilling to multiply the salary of a player with so many limitations, particularly given a farm system booming with inexpensive alternatives. General manager Terry Ryan spent two months trying to trade Ortiz. “Not one team made an offer,” he told Sports Illustrated’s Tom Verducci in 2006. Needing a roster spot after picking in the Rule 5 draft, Ryan designated Ortiz for assignment on December 16, 2002, four days ahead of the non-tender deadline. “I made a bad baseball decision,” he told Verducci.
Forces conspired to bring Ortiz to Boston. For one, fellow Dominican Pedro Martinez, by that point already a three-time Cy Young winner, ran into the sullen, just-released Ortiz in Santo Domingo, and recalled the slugger homering off him. “I threw you a cutter last season, high and inside. I threw it perfect — 92 miles an hour, jam-city. And you smashed it into the upper deck… You’re the only one who’s ever hit a home run off that pitch. You’re coming with me to Boston, homie.” Martinez put in his good word in a voicemail for Epstein.
Sox scout Dave Jauss, who had managed Ortiz in the Dominican Winter League, also recommended him to Epstein. Jauss had seen Ortiz beat up left-handed pitching and believed that the incentive of taking aim at Fenway Park’s 37-foot Green Monster in left field (just 310 feet down the line, and 379 feet in left-center) could help him thrive as an all-fields hitter, as lefties Mo Vaughn and Trot Nixon had done in Boston. The GM asked Jauss to work him out, hitting him an endless supply of groundballs “like he was a 16-year-old free agent.”
The Sox signed Ortiz to a one-year, $1.25 million deal, but he had to fight for playing time until corner infielder Shea Hillenbrand was traded to Arizona in late May. Thanks to tweaks to his swing from hitting coach Ron Jackson, who told him to “load up” (draw his arms back) and wait as long as possible to swing, Ortiz settled into the lineup’s fifth spot behind Nomar Garciaparra and Manny Ramirez and bashed 31 homers while hitting .288/.369/.592 (144 OPS+). The Red Sox, who had missed the playoffs in the previous three seasons, won 95 games and claimed the AL Wild Card. After beating the A’s in the Division Series, they pushed the Yankees to extra innings in Game 7 of a thrilling AL Championship Series. Ortiz powered Boston to victory with a two-run homer off Mike Mussina in Game 1, drove in three runs in a Game 6 win, then hit a solo shot that gave the team a 5-2 lead in the top of the eighth in Game 7, just before the Yankees mounted a comeback capped by Aaron Boone’s 11th inning walk-off home run.
Under new manager Terry Francona, Boston did even better in 2004, boosting their win total to 98. “Big Papi” had become a fixture in the lineup and clubhouse; a raise to $4.6 million was soon accompanied by a two-year, $12.5 million extension covering 2005-06. Picking up the slack for the injured-and-then-traded Garciaparra, he made his first All-Star team while hitting .301/.380/.603 with 41 homers and 139 RBIs; the last three numbers all ranked second in the AL, as did his 351 total bases, while his 145 OPS+ ranked fifth. The Wild Card-winning Sox swept the Angels, with Ortiz’s 10th-inning walk-off homer off Jarrod Washburn in Game 3 sealing the deal.
In their ALCS rematch against the Yankees, the Red Sox fell behind three games to none, a deficit that had never been surmounted in any postseason series in baseball history. Despite Ortiz’s two-run single off Orlando Hernandez, they trailed 4-3 in the ninth inning of Game 4 against Mariano Rivera before scratching out a run thanks in large part to pinch-runner Dave Roberts‘ steal of second base. Ortiz ended the five-hour epic in the 12th inning with a walk-off two-run homer off Paul Quantrill.
Ortiz then summoned even more heroics in Game 5, which began roughly 17 hours after the end of Game 4 and stretched even longer: 14 innings and five hours and 49 minutes. After collecting an RBI single and a solo homer, he delivered the winning hit in the 14th via a bloop single off Esteban Loaiza.
While he went hitless in Game 6, Ortiz’s two-run first-inning homer off Kevin Brown keyed a 10-3 rout in Game 7. Ortiz won ALCS MVP honors for his .387/.457/.742 performance and record-setting 11 RBIs. He then hit a three-run homer in the first inning of the World Series opener against the Cardinals. Boston swept the series and ended their 86-year championship drought, while Ortiz finished October hitting .400/.515/.764 with five homers and a record-tying 19 RBIs.
Over the next three seasons, Ortiz continued to put up monster numbers, hitting a combined .306/.418/.620 for a 163 OPS+. In 2005, he led the league with 148 RBIs and ranked second with 47 homers, an astonishing 20 of which either tied the game or gave Boston the lead. In gratitude, Sox owner John Henry presented Ortiz with a plaque in September 2005 that proclaimed him “The Greatest Clutch Hitter In The History Of The Boston Red Sox.” In 2006, he led the AL in homers (a franchise-record 54), RBIs (137) and walks (119), including 23 intentional passes. Shortly after the season opened, the Sox extended him again, this time for four years (through 2010) and $52 million.
In 2007, though Ortiz’s homer total dipped to 35, he led the league with a .445 OBP and set a career high with a 171 OPS+ despite playing through a torn meniscus in his right knee. The 96-win Sox won the AL East, and Ortiz continued to blaze a trail through October, hitting a combined 370/.508/.696 with three homers and 10 RBIs in 63 PA as the Sox swept the Angels (who walked him six times when he wasn’t going 5-for-7), downed the Indians in a seven-game ALCS and then swept the Rockies in the World Series.
A partially-torn tendon sheath in his left wrist cost Ortiz 45 games in 2008, the start of a three-year dip across which he averaged “only” 28 homers while batting a combined .257/.356/.498 for a 120 OPS+ and struck out with increasing frequency — 24% of all plate appearances in 2010. Though hardly a pushover, the 34-year-old slugger looked to have entered the decline phase of his career.
On July 30, 2009, the New York Times reported that both Ortiz and Ramirez (by then a Dodger) were among the 104 major leaguers who tested positive for PEDs via the 2003 survey testing that triggered the implementation of a bona fide testing-and-penalty program. Records of the test were supposed to have been destroyed, but before they could be, the government subpoenaed and then seized them as part of a larger investigation into the distribution of PEDs. The list of positives was placed under a court seal, and a month later, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that in seizing records and urine samples from testing facilities, federal agents had far exceeded the limits of a search warrant that gave them access to the records of only 10 players linked to BALCO. By that point, several names had been leaked to the media, including those of Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Jason Grimsley and David Segui.
Though he had been notified in 2004 that he was on the list, Ortiz described himself as “blindsided” by the news. Soon afterwards, he admitted that he had been “careless” in taking over-the-counter nutritional supplements, an explanation that actually left him some wiggle room. More on that below.
A cynic might be tempted to draw a link between Ortiz’s survey positive and his post-2010 resurgence, but it’s important to note that he did not test positive once MLB began issuing suspensions for PEDs starting in ’04, nor was he named in the ’07 Mitchell Report. Against the odds, he cut his strikeout rate back to a mere 14% in 2011, kicking off a six-year stretch across which he hit .296/.386/.567 for a 154 OPS+, nearly on par with his 2003-07 run (156 OPS+). With four All-Star teams in that span, he ran his career total to 10, and averaged 32 homers despite missing Boston’s final 71 games in 2012 due to a right Achilles tendon strain. The injury was part of a deluge that helped turn a near-miss 2011 team — eliminated on the last day of the regular season — into a 93-loss disasterpiece.
Still battling Achilles inflammation, Ortiz would miss the first 15 games of the 2013 season as well. By the time he took the field, his folk-hero status throughout New England had grown. On the afternoon of April 15, two pressure cooker bombs exploded near the finish line of the Boston Marathon, killing three spectators and injuring an estimated 264 others. The Red Sox had just left town for Cleveland; their return to Fenway Park on Friday, April 19 was postponed while the city shut down as police continued a manhunt for the suspects. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was captured later that night. The following afternoon, Ortiz gave a brief, rousing speech during a pregame ceremony to honor the victims of the attacks and pay tribute to law enforcement officials, first responders and race participants:
“This jersey that we wear today, it doesn’t say Red Sox. It says Boston. We want to thank you Mayor Menino, Governor Patrick the whole police department for the great job they did this past week. This is our fucking city and nobody is going to dictate our freedom. Stay strong.”
The catharsis provided by that speech resonated throughout the Red Sox’s 97-win season. Making up for lost time, Ortiz bopped 30 homers in 137 games and finished with a 159 OPS+, his highest since 2007, then went on yet another remarkable postseason run. In 68 PA against the Rays, Tigers and Cardinals, he hit a combined .353/.500/.706 with five homers and 13 RBIs, not to mention 16 walks. Highlights from the first two rounds included a two-homer Game 2 against Tampa Bay in the Division Series, and a game-tying grand slam in the eighth inning of Game 2 of the ALCS while Detroit’s Torii Hunter tumbled over the wall into the Boston bullpen.
Ortiz then went 11-for-16 with eight walks (four intentional) in the World Series as the Cardinals desperately tried to avoid engaging him. He reached base multiple times in all six games, led all players in runs (seven) and RBIs (six) as well as hits and walks and even drew credit for helping to turn the series via an impromptu pep talk in the dugout during Game 4, just before the Sox turned a 2-1 deficit into a 4-2 lead.
As the Sox won their third World Series in a decade, Ortiz secured Series MVP honors and kindled talk of Cooperstown. “This month, David Ortiz has probably become the first player in history to get over the hump and into the Hall of Fame by the margin of his spectacular postseason play,” wrote the Washington Post‘s Thomas Boswell. “At 37, Ortiz remains the game’s best designated hitter and has played himself into at least a conversation about his Hall of Fame viability,” wrote the New York Post’s Ken Davidoff.
The Sox slipped back to last place in the AL East in both 2014 and ’15, though Ortiz continued to defy his age. His 614 PA in the latter year represented his highest total since 2009 and vested a $16 million option for ’16, while his 37 homers were his most since ’06. On September 12, he hit the 500th of his career off the Rays’ Matt Moore in Tampa Bay, becoming the 27th player to reach that milestone.
On November 18, Ortiz’s 40th birthday, he announced via a two-and-a-half minute video on The Players Tribune that the 2016 season would be his last. He did more than just show up to the tributes; he put together the greatest farewell season of any hitter by several measures including home runs (38), RBI (an AL-best 127) and WAR (5.2). He hit .315/.401/.620, leading the league in slugging percentage and doubles (48) and helping the Red Sox back into the postseason. Still, he remained firm in his decision to retire given the lengthy pregame preparation to manage the pain associated with his Achilles injury.
…
Ortiz ended his career with 10 All-Star appearances, eight Edgar Martinez Awards (prior to 2004, known as the Designated Hitter of the Year Award) and three championship rings. Along those lines, he retired as the career leader among DHs in key categories such as plate appearances (8,861), hits (2,191), homers (485), runs (1,254), and RBI (1,569). Via the Hall of Fame Monitor, his portfolio of accomplishments gives him a 171 score, beyond “a virtual cinch.” Indeed, of the 19 other eligible players within 10 points of that score, 16 are enshrined, including Joe Morgan, Reggie Jackson and Ernie Banks, all within one point of Ortiz. Only current candidate Todd Helton (175) and the PED-connected Rafael Palmeiro (178) and Mark McGwire (170) are outside.
In any other era, Ortiz 541 home runs alone — good for 17th all-time — would have made him a lock for Cooperstown, but the doubling of that club’s size from 14 players through Mike Schmidt in 1987 to 28 players today, has lessened that milestone’s prestige, not only because of its rapid growth but because eight newcomers including Ortiz have been linked to PEDs. Of the six that reached the ballot before this year — Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, Bonds, and Gary Sheffield — none has made it, with McGwire falling off the ballot after 10 years, Bonds and Sosa about to do the same, Palmeiro slipping below 5% after four years, and Ramirez and Sheffield getting nowhere near the support such sluggers used to receive, though the latter did reach 40.6% last year, the highest share for any such candidate besides Bonds (61.8%). Rodriguez, like Ortiz, is eligible for the first time this year, but as the first player to miss an entire season for a PED infraction, he’s not getting in anytime soon despite his 696 homers and 3,115 hits.
Like Sosa, Ortiz is linked to PEDs only by the 2003 survey test; he didn’t turn up in the Mitchell Report or any other investigation. “In the eyes of baseball… Ortiz is a zero-time offender. He never has failed a test that featured individual discipline, and he never has been charged with a non-analytical positive,” wrote Davidoff in 2013.
Beyond the survey test’s intended anonymity — which is to say the violation of players’ privacy rights via the leak — there’s that wiggle room mentioned above with regards to supplements. “Because neither Major League Baseball nor the Players Association is believed to know the substances for which the players tested positive during that survey testing year — only the government has those results — if a player thinks he tested positive for a supplement, he might have a reasonable case,” wrote the New York Daily News‘ Christian Red and Teri Thompson shortly after the leak. “The supplement 19-norandrostenedione was legal in 2003 and contained the steroid nandrolone, a hard-core performance-enhancing drug used to build muscle.”
As Red and Thompson, MLBPA executive director Michael Weiner, and even the league itself pointed out, there was a discrepancy between MLB’s count of positives (96) and the number of samples seized by the government (104). The union planned to contest some of the 96 positive survey tests but never did because the threshold to trigger mandatory testing for 2004 had already been exceeded. Said MLB in a statement, “Given the uncertainties inherent in the list, we urge the press and the public to use caution in reaching conclusions based on leaks of names, particularly from sources whose identities are not revealed.”
With an eye towards Ortiz’s eventual Hall of Fame eligibility, commissioner Rob Manfred reiterated that point in late 2016:
“If there were test results like that today on a player, and we tried to discipline, there would be a big grievance over it. It would be fully aired, vetted, tried, resolved… Even if Rob Manfred’s name was on that list, he might have been one of those 10 or 15 where there was probably, or possibly, a very legitimate explanation that did not involve the use of a banned substance. I think it’s really unfortunate that anybody’s name was ever released publicly.”
None of this entirely clears Ortiz’s name, but it does confirm that his explanation was at least plausible.
Beyond that obstacle is the voters’ handling of designated hitters. Molitor’s 2004 election made him the first player with a plurality of plate appearances as a DH to gain entry, though his 3,319 hits virtually guaranteed his election. Thomas’ 2014 election made him the first honoree with a majority of his plate appearances as a DH, but his 521 homers and reputation as one of the era’s few players to speak out against PEDs made him a lock as well. Martinez, who played a more-than-passable third base for over 500 games before moving to DH, took until 2017, his eighth year of eligibility, to top 50% of the vote, likely aided by the head-to-head comparisons with Ortiz as the latter’s career wound down.
Ortiz is Martinez’s only rival for the title of the position’s greatest, and owns the advantage in counting stats, but his .288/.380/.552 batting line, assembled largely while calling Fenway Park home, is not the equal of Martinez’s .314/.428/.532 in the more pitcher-friendly environments of the Kingdome and Safeco Field. Adjusting for park and era and including their offensive performances at other positions, Martinez holds a 147-141 edge in OPS+ and a 532-455 edge in batting runs (the offensive component of WAR).
Martinez does not have Ortiz’s lengthy postseason resumé, but his biggest October hit probably saved baseball in Seattle, and he does have significant edges in WAR (68.4 to 55.3) and JAWS (56.0 to 45.3). Defensive value is built into WAR, both via a comparison of the player’s fielding work to that of the average player and via a positional adjustment that rewards those at harder positions on the right of the defensive spectrum and penalizes those at the easier ones on the left. A full-time DH, playing 150 games a year, is assessed a positional adjustment of -15 runs via Baseball Reference’s version, 5.5 fewer than the same amount of time at first base, and 17 fewer than the same time at third (which pertains to Martinez’s case). Here it’s worth noting that FanGraphs’ version uses -17.5 runs for DH, and +2.5 for third base, so Edgar has a slightly bigger edge on Big Papi in WAR, 65.5 to 51.0.
Because of that significant positional penalty, Ortiz only cracked the league’s top 10 in WAR in 2005 (5.2 WAR, eighth), ’06 (5.8 WAR, sixth) and ’07 (6.4 WAR, sixth); meanwhile, he placed second, third and fourth in the MVP voting in those years, respectively. He had three other seasons worth at least 4.0 WAR, the championship seasons of 2004 (4.3) and ’13 (4.4) plus his swan song (5.2).
As with Molitor, Martinez and other candidates who spent substantial time at DH, in my JAWS evaluations I have compared each at the positions where they accrued the most value. Ortiz, who played 278 games at first base and was 16 runs below average while doing so, doesn’t measure up resoundingly well among first basemen. His 55.3 career WAR is 26th, his 35.2 peak WAR is 34th, and his 45.3 JAWS is 30th, 8.9 points below the standard; he outranks just four of 22 non-Negro Leagues enshrinees in JAWS.
Those metrics don’t capture the value of Ortiz’s postseason accomplishments, however, and there’s no magically correct answer as to how to weight them. Even taken at face value, they are impressive, starting with Ortiz’s .455/.576/.795 line in 59 World Series plate appearances. One has to drop the threshold to 30 PA — half the playing time — to find players with better rate stats; only Bonds (.471/.700/1.294 in 30 PA) beats him across the board.
Considering the entire body of postseason work, which also includes nine Division Series, his .289/.404/.543 line beats his regular season numbers, over the course of 369 PA, roughly two-thirds of a year, against the pitching of top-shelf teams. With the caveat that here he’s largely competing with contemporaries from the Wild Card era, he’s fourth in doubles (22) and RBIs (61), sixth in total bases (165), and seventh in walks (59), though he’s slipped to 11th in homers (17) and hits (88) thanks to Jose Altuve and friends. It’s still an impressive collection, if not quite a dominant one. In terms of Win Probability Added, a context-sensitive measure that can help to quantify his big moments, his career mark of 3.16 is the highest of any position player, but it’s in part a product of opportunity, as he’s 10th in PA. His 63.3 Championship WPA (cWPA) — which factors in both the increment by which he changed a team’s probability of winning a game, and then by the difference in the team’s chances of winning the World Series given a win or a loss — ranks ninth:
| Player | PA | cWPA |
|---|---|---|
| David Freese | 230 | 87.2 |
| Mickey Mantle | 273 | 83.5 |
| Lance Berkman | 224 | 82.4 |
| Pete Rose | 301 | 79.0 |
| George Springer | 292 | 69.2 |
| Tris Speaker | 83 | 65.2 |
| Lou Gehrig | 150 | 64.0 |
| Hal Smith | 8 | 63.7 |
| David Ortiz | 369 | 63.3 |
| Reggie Jackson | 318 | 63.2 |
Of course, a high postseason WPA or cWPA can only do so much to capture the significance of a player’s most indelible moments, and I don’t know that this standing is especially prescriptive for election; it didn’t work for Berkman, who finished with a 144 OPS+, 52.0 WAR, and a .317/.417/.532 postseason line in 224 PA (and .410/.520/.564 in 50 World Series PA) but received just 1.2% on the 2019 ballot.
One postseason hero with a similarly low JAWS score comes to mind as an Ortiz comp is Willie Stargell, the powerful and magnetic seven-time All-Star who inherited the Pirates’ leadership mantle from the late Roberto Clemente and earned universal respect throughout the game. Said Joe Morgan, “When I played, there were 600 baseball players, and 599 of them loved Willie Stargell. He’s the only guy I could have said that about. He never made anybody look bad and he never said anything bad about anybody.”
In his 21-year career, the slugging left fielder/first baseman put up raw numbers that Ortiz eventually outdistanced, though in the lower scoring environment, he created more value:
| Player | Career | Peak | JAWS | H | HR | AVG/OBP/SLG | OPS+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Willie Stargell | 57.5 | 38.0 | 47.7 | 2,232 | 475 | .282/.360/.529 | 147 |
| Avg HOF LF | 65.2 | 41.6 | 53.4 | ||||
| David Ortiz | 55.3 | 35.2 | 45.3 | 2,472 | 541 | .286/.380/.552 | 141 |
| Avg HOF 1B | 66.0 | 42.4 | 54.2 |
Like Ortiz, Stargell starred in the postseason, hitting a combined .278/.359/.511 with seven homers in 153 PA, including .315/.381/.574 with three homers in 63 PA in the Pittsburgh’s 1971 and ’79 World Series wins over Baltimore. In the latter, he drove in the winning runs in Game 7 and became the first player to run the table with the regular season, LCS and World Series MVP awards — at age 39, no less. To be fair, the regular season award, shared with Keith Hernandez in a season where Stargell was worth just 2.5 WAR, was weak on paper, relying heavily on his perceived leadership of the colorful cast for whom Sister Sledge’s disco hit “We Are Family” became an anthem.
From a sabermetric standpoint, Stargell’s value is held back by subpar defense (-70 runs) at both left field and first base. He’s short on all three WAR fronts when measured against left fielders, including 6.0 points short in JAWS — closer to the mark than Ortiz, albeit with a lower Monitor score (106) and postseason WPA (0.34) and cWPA (25.4). Still, both on the field and off — where he won the Roberto Clemente Award, for the player who “best exemplifies the game of baseball, sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual’s contribution to his team,” in 1974, as Ortiz would do in 2011 — Stargell touches the bases in a similar manner to Ortiz, an outsized icon whose collection of accomplishments in the regular and postseason are more than enough to get elected.
While I’m lukewarm about Ortiz from a JAWS standpoint, and therefore about including him on my ballot — the construction of which is guided by my metric but not limited to it — I do believe he’ll be elected, if not in 2022 then soon enough. Yes, it’s going to be ridiculous that voters place him ahead of Bonds, who was never disciplined by MLB for PEDs and who was about 10 times the ballplayer Ortiz was in terms of all-around skills. I’ve been saying for years that voters will gerrymander their logic in some fashion to include Ortiz and not Bonds (the candidates who served suspensions are more easily dismissed), but it’s not as though I don’t understand the impulse to anoint the former. His candidacy has its flaws, but inarguably, he rates as one of his era’s most transcendent stars. The flags that fly over Fenway Park thanks to his contribution will outlive him, just as those from 1915, ’16 and ’18 outlive Babe Ruth. The people of Boston won’t forget that, and I suspect neither will the BBWAA voters.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
The real big question here is does he go in with a Twins hat or a Red Sox hat?
Mariners clearly
I was thinking Wisconsin Timber Rattlers for that home run derby against A-Rod & Griffey.
Bellingham Baby Ms obviously
Yes, no doubt. Papi is not just a measure of fWAR. Fans want to see the players whom they loved in the Hall.
Who wants to go all the way to central NY, way off any interstate and nowhere near any airport, just to see a sterile HOF that only inducts based on stats? The Hall needs to be fun, and Papi was as fun a player as there was. He also has the benefit of being an amazing hitter with post season heroics
I’ve completely changed my feelings on the HOF. Tell the story of the history of the game by who you let in. I get it will have the inane arguments that baseball always has … just tell the complete story. Including eras, segregation, greenies, gambling, steroids, and how greatest was measured then and now.
This. History, not heritage.
The league’s stance on gambling, handed down from yesteryear, appears a little comical (or downright old-fashioned at the very least) given that every pro sports league is cozying up to the sports books in a big way nowadays…
I think they would still throw the book at anyone who bet on games they played in. I don’t see how their relationship with the books changes that.
Oh no doubt, there are still red lines that can’t be crossed. Still, I got whiplash going from “gambling is bad” to “well there are two men on base and Freeman is coming up, and the bullpen is looking gassed…that “over 8.5 runs -115″ sure looks enticing doesn’t it Skip?”
“Boy you said it Terry. This call to the pen is sponsored by FanDuel, now another word from our sponsors Boner Pills 3000”
You can still tell the history of gambling in baseball without honoring those players who were rightfully banned due to their connections to it.
They banned a couple select ones. They didn’t ban others, including Ty Cobb. It was pervasive.
What legitimate evidence is there that Cobb ever bet on baseball or threw games? None, otherwise Landis would’ve definitely banned his butt, as well.
I agree 100%
As I also said in the Sheffield post, There’s just too many unknowns about who/what/when players were using, to have anyone’s PED use be a determining factor in HOF eligibility. Even if we did know precisely that info, we would still not know how much a player’s performance was actually improved versus his non-PED baseline. We couldn’t know how much improvement was strictly pharmacological and not due to changes in batting stance or swing approach, etc., or combination of both, and so on. The PED issue will always be a cloudy one. I have no issues with voting any PED-era players in, if their performance vs. peers warrants it and they have what voters consider to be hall-of-famey qualities.
When I personally imagine what I’d like a Hall of Fame player to be like, it would be as a larger-than-life presence capable of carrying a team, with a flair for dramatic moments. Big Papi had so many memorable clutch hits en route to multiple World Series titles, helped break an 85-year old curse (!), and his huge, likable personality helped rally an entire city together following the marathon tragedy. He’s contributed a great deal to the community here in Boston over the past 2 decades that goes well beyond baseball. He’s a slam-dunk Hall-of-Famer in my book! If he gets elected, there will certainly be a memorable speech. I look forward to it 🙂
I thought I remembered that he hit with absolutely no power for the first half of 2003 and then just came charging on in the second half to become one of the game’s best hitters. Went back and looked at the game log and sure enough, his first homer wasn’t until April 27 and he had 3 total by the end of June. It was a pretty remarkable transformation.
Shea Hillenbrand was traded on May 29, opening up a full time spot for Ortiz in the lineup. Prior to that date, Ortiz was playing part time (on pace for about 350 PA) and was hitting .273/.354/.444. After that date, he played full time and hit .292/.374/.633. Makes some sense that he’d play better with more regular playing time.
Today I learned that there were tw60’s.o catchers named Hal Smith playing back in the early
As I said with Sheffield yesterday, I’m usually a WAR guy, but come on–how is there a history of baseball in the 2000s without a plaque memorializing Big Papi? He’ll sail in on the first ballot. Fun to watch, amazing at the plate.
He’ll get in but I doubt that he’ll make it first ballot. Some voters, correctly or incorrectly, will leave him off because they believe he used PEDs. Others will leave him off this year but vote for him next year because they don’t want to be seen voting for Ortiz while not voting for Bonds and Clemens (the PEDs thing again). And some simply feel he’s not a HOF. Oh, and of course, you always have the voters who say “He’s a HOFer but not a first ballot HOFer”. So they’ll leave him off this year but vote for him next year.
Right now we have info on 10 ballots and he’s been named on 5 of them.
For a guy roughly as valuable as Ian Kinsler and Robin Ventura? East coast bias all the way
Bagwell and McGriff both seem more deserving. NY and Boston fans seem obsessed with Ortiz for some reason.
If you’re inducting Ortiz it means you put a lot of weight on postseason heroics. The guy ran something like a 144 wRC+ in the postseason which is absolutely crazy to think about. In the 2004 he put up a wRC+ of 222, including two walk-off home runs. In 2007 his wRC+ was 203.
That 2007 line is absolutely crazy too. He ran a .445 on base percentage, 35 home runs. And he even stole 3 bases, which must have been quite the insult to whatever catcher was playing against him those days.
Aside from those two things, it’s hard to put him in. Even if you just take his Boston years–from 2003-2016–he wasn’t as good a hitter as Votto, Cabrera, or Pujols, and the DH really does take a bite out of his overall value. And the steroids thing, while not exactly strong evidence, further clouds his candidacy.
I’m probably a “no” but if we outline a coherent case for postseason accomplishments and how they matter (maybe using Rivera as a template) then I might reconsider.
His overall postseason numbers aren’t that different than his regular season numbers, But those WS numbers are something else entirely:
.455/.576/.795
That’s not something that you can just wave away by crying small sample size.
There’s also the fact that players performing at the same level in the postseason is pretty impressive. For example: In the ALCS in 2007 he faced CC Sabathia (6.4 fWAR) and Fausto Carmona / Robert Heredia (3.3 fWAR) twice each. Paul Byrd and Jake Westbrook weren’t all that good but we’re still talking about a really big change in competition compared to the regular season.
In 2013, it was even more extreme. Ortiz faced off against Max Scherzer (5.9 fWAR, 2x), Anibal Sanchez (5.9 fWAR, 2x), and Doug Fister (4.0 fWAR). The worst starter Ortiz faced that series was Rick Porcello (2.7 fWAR).
Minor correction, Roberto Hernandez is the actual “real” name of the pitcher who called himself Fausto Carmona through 2011.
Good catch, I thought it was Robert Heredia but now it’s probably Roberto Heredia Hernandez or something.
I mean, it absolutely is something you can wave away by crying small sample size.
I would vote for him because of postseason heroism but he’d still be borderline at the level of Sheffield or Dick Allen. Postseason heroics ignore the absence of postseason defensive value but I’m willing to ignore that.
I don’t think he’s anywhere as strong a candidate as Sheffield (well, if you buy Sheffield’s answer about PEDs) and certainly not as strong as Allen. I think they’re clearly on one side of the line, and Ortiz is probably on the other unless you weight the postseason stuff very heavily.
Of course, the difference is that Big Papi is beloved and if Sheffield retired to a hermit-like existence I’m not sure anyone would care.
sadtrombone, I meant with lotsa points for postseason heroics Ortiz gets to the borderline at a similar level as Sheffield who had a much better regular season career. I put Allen at about the same level as Sheffield since I look at career — starting with WAA and giving points for postseason, massive seasons, and other stuff — more than peak.
Don’t forget he was “wicked feared”. That seems to be good for 30 votes on the ballot that gets Sox Players in. Again he’s a part of an important baseball history story…I’ll leave the small hall argument to the smarter and more passionate fans- it’s an argument with merit. But when I go to the HOF I wanna seem a history museum.
If Papi’s postseason gets him in, then I would be inclined to put in Bumgarner also because he had the best post season I can ever remember in delivering the title to Giants.
For guys that are borderline statistically, I allow the narrative to take place to push them over the line. Ortiz is a slam dunk HOF for that very reason. You cannot tell the story of 21st century baseball without including Big Papi.
“You cannot tell the story of 21st century baseball without including….,” is not a successful argument for HoF, in my opinion. You could say that about any of the cheaters (Bonds, A-Rod, even Sheffield). It doesn’t change the fact they cheated.
And my opinion isn’t based on wanting to punish people. It’s that I believe the rampant cheating of this era made a playing field that is extremely unfair to players who DIDN’T cheat. There are lots of players whose numbers must have suffered both from having to compete against steriod users and from the way their stats look in comparison to the juiced up stats of so many cheaters. These players are punished for not cheating when cheaters get in.
That’s a tough comparison to make, since by stopping at 2016 you’re comparing Ortiz through the end of his career (while doing him the solid of lopping off the years the Twins mismanaged him) to pre-decline Cabrera and Votto.
But even then, you’ve listed the only three players who were his contemporaries who out-hit him from 2003-2016. And I think those three guys are surefire Hall of Famers.
Is the 4th-best hitter in the game over a 14-year period a Hall of Famer even though he generated no defensive value?
If he was a quiet star who played away from the spotlight his entire career and made no real cultural contributions of note (say, a Lance Berkman type), I think that question would be borderline. I see the arguments either way. But when you factor in the postseason track record and his status as the face of baseball for over a decade (not to mention maybe the most beloved figure in the Dominican Republic), I think it becomes a no-brainer.
We obviously only want deserving players in the Hall of Fame, but I think we need to remember it’s a museum that purports to tell baseball’s history. Tough to envision doing that without Ortiz (and Bonds/Clemons/A-Rod/McGwire too, but I digress).
Yeah, wait what point was SadTrombone trying to make here? His wRC+ was only slightly worse than the peak of three obvious Hall of Famers? Only Votto has a better wRC+ when you include their 2017-2021 seasons, late 30s for each (and early 40s for Pujols). All 4 should be in, in my opinion.
The problem with cutting the comparison years is that if you cut it to just Ortiz’s peak (in contiguous years), you’re only looking at a 5-year stretch. Which should underscore exactly how tenuous his case is. He did have a bit of a late-career renaissance in his 30s which helps him, and he had a great farewell season.
Being the best player over your best stretch of your career is a crude measure for value but it’s also a fairly generous one, since we’re picking the best years. If we do the same thing for Votto or Cabrera they come out quite a bit better too, and there are plenty of guys who were better whose peaks were just before or after Ortiz’s.
It’s also generous because we’re only evaluating him in terms of his batting (and not his fielding and baserunning; I’ve also left out the comparisons Bonds and Manny because of the PEDs stuff). In terms of fWAR, Ortiz is only the 13th best position player from 2003-2016. Some of these guys get dinged for PEDs (like A-Rod) and others are shoo-in Hall of Famers (Adrian Beltre, Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera) but he’s also behind Matt Holliday and David Wright, and just barely ahead of Evan Longoria and Curtis Granderson.
I think the real question is how much postseason heroics should count, because his postseason performances were incredible. Maybe they should count for a lot. I’m not really buying the arguments about the Big Papi persona and how popular he was.
Why would we just look at contiguous years? That’s not how JAWS defines peak. And it seems pretty silly, since it penalizes players for injuries during their best stretches of play, even if they bounce back from those injuries later (as Ortiz did, from 2011-2016, for a pretty great second contiguous “peak” where he put up a 151 wRC+ over the last 6 years of his career).
If you look at his entire career, you’re talking about a guy who ranked as the 7th best hitter over a contiguous stretch of 14 consecutive major league seasons, outhit only by Pujols, Cabrera, Votto (again, pre-decline for all 3 of those guys), end-of-career Bonds and Ramirez, and early-career Mike Trout. Bonds and Ramirez are pretty clearly connected to an earlier era of player, so not really contemporaries. Trout, obviously, only overlapped with Ortiz for a couple of years.
So you’re talking about somewhere between the 4th and 7th best hitter over a decade-and-a-half, depending on who you compare him to (personally I think it’s pretty silly to compare Ortiz’s entire career to Mike Trout’s age 19-24 seasons and absolutely nobody should be compared to Bonds, but that’s just me).
I guess if you think the criteria for the Hall is that someone has to be “the best player over his best stretch of his career” that’s not a hall of famer, But that’s a pretty extreme take even by the standards of small hall guys.
In Ortiz’s case, as a DH…yeah, he probably does have to be a hitter on the same level as guys like Votto and Cabrera. There are other ways to consider value but he’s about as one-dimensional as they come. It’s not like you can talk about his great defense (like Scott Rolen), or his total career value, or his peak. You’re putting him in there because he was a transcendent offensive talent, and I’m not seeing it unless the playoffs are weighted heavily.
I consider a top-5 hitter for a decade a pretty “transcendent offensive talent.”
I guess if you think it’s reserved for the top-3, there’s the shape of our disagreement. FWIW, your criteria also exclude Edgar Martinez, who lagged just a bit behind the top tier of Bonds/Thome/Thomas/McGwire/Sheffield/Bagwell during his peak years.
I think in general you’re veering a bit too close to Hall of WAR for my tastes. I’m as stat-friendly as they come, but there’s also the experience of being a fan to consider. When the statistical case is close, I think the soft factors tilt the balance, and Ortiz’s are off the charts.
In terms of fWAR, Ortiz is heavily penalized by the Positional Adjustment. Over the Ortiz’s career time period, only one player has a lower Defense (Fielding + Positional Adjustment Above Average) aggregate: Adam Dunn, at -252.8. About 51% is fielding, the rest is positional adjustment. Ortiz’s Defense aggregate is -247.7, with 95% of that due to Positional Adjustment.
We don’t know how bad Ortiz would have been if he played first base full-time. Maybe mediocre, maybe bad, maybe terrible. Would he have been worse than Adam Dunn? Because that’s how bad he’d have to have a lower Fielding + Positional Adjustment. Any better than that, and his fWAR is higher, and suddenly he’s not the 13th best position player anymore.
Among all DHs since 1973, Ortiz has the lowest Positional Adjustment all time. Lower than Harold Baines, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, or Edgar Martinez. Even with that, he has the 4th highest batting runs and the 5th highest WAR among players who were DHs.
Figuring out where DHs slot in is difficult, but once you understand how much his fWAR is reduced because he was a full-time DH, it’s not a particularly hard question for me. He was designated to hit. He hit.
The postseason stuff is just gravy. Hall of Fame careers are made on the back of postseason heroics, like with Kirby Puckett.
Idk if he should be in the hall, but Ortiz putting up a 4.5 win, 160 wRC+ season in 2016 while he could barely stand up (much less move) without excruciating pain was pretty badass. He also stole two bases that year, which is hilarious
The SNL skits should put him over the top…
Mofongo
He is an icon not only of his team but of the entire sport. You simply can’t tell the story of post-2000 baseball without him.
I love Jaffe season and have a tremendous amount of respect for your work and for JAWS, but there are a few guys for whom you can pretty much throw JAWS out the window (mainly DHs and guys like Sheffield who should have been a DH if he hadn’t spent most of his peak in the NL), and Ortiz is the prototypical example.
He’s a guy whose career stats are impressive, and probably Hall worthy on their own, but aren’t indicative of his impact on the history of the game and his importance in the era in which he played. How many players in baseball history had as many big moments as Ortiz? I’m a “clutch” skeptic, but you can’t deny it for Big Papi. I’m certainly no Red Sox fan, but he was one of the most fun players I’ve ever watched. Not because he could dazzle in the field or on the base paths, but because he seemed to be a magnet for those pivotal at bats where a game, a series, a season hung in the balance. You could see them coming, the tension slowly building in the later innings… uh oh, he’s due up soon… until there he inevitably was, a giant in the batters box, lashing the ball into outer space as the TV cameras shook from thousands of delirious people in red winter coats jumping up and down and shaking the foundation of an ancient ballpark. Just in 2004 alone, the walkoff against the Angels, the walkoff against the Yankees, the other walkoff against the Yankees… He put the team and its decades of baggage on his back and it was pure magic. If a player could become a Hall of Famer based on one month of play, it would be Ortiz in October of 2004. He hit damn near .500 across multiple World Series appearances.
He may not be an “inner circle” type Hall of Famer, but he’s as much of a no doubter as there ever was in my book.
wow perfectly said. i dont understand anyone who doesn’t look at papi and just immediately see a hof baseball player though i am obviously biased as a lifelong red sox fan. im going to link this [read: cut and paste it and pretend i wrote it] for anyone who argues with me [read: yankees fans] that he shouldn’t be in.
i will say this though. i do think the people who are saying hes a slam dunk first ballot guy are insane. i objectively think he should be, but i think the writers are very very likely to keep him out on his first ballot. we know how they are. id probably set the likelihood at like 20-25% max.
I’m a Yankee fan and I believe he should be in the HoF. Don’t assume anyone arguing against his induction is a Yankee fan. There are fans of all teams who will look at the WAR, or note he was a DH and had the advantage of playing at Fenway, and almost assuredly took PEDs, who will construct a valid argument against him. I’m not one of them. I believe they’re wrong. I know many Yankee fan who feel the same way. He’s a HOFer. Also, as much as I support WAR as a nice, neatly wrapped up number, I can also cite players in the 45-55 WAR range who are more Hall-worthy (is this a Seinfeld episode?) than some guys in the 65-70 range.
Ortiz will make the HoF. I don’t see it happening on the first ballot.
Beautifully said. He is a perfect representative of the spirit of baseball. You vote in the player, not the stat card. He’s as transcendental a player as any in the hall
He is a clear NO to me! he used. If no on Bonds, then no on Ortiz!
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
@drews…you are in agreement that drug enhanced ball players is a wrong.
No, I believe a) that Bonds had a Hall career even before he used, b) it wasn’t illegal when he used, and c) there ain’t a lot you can levy against Ortiz in that department, for reasons in TFA.
a) That’s irrelevant. Cheaters are cheaters irregardless of whether or not they actually needed to do so.
b) Steroids and most other PEDs have been illegal in the U.S. and thus in MLB itself since at least the early ’90s. It just wasn’t enforced within MLB until 2004.
c) I’ll agree with you there. Even Bonds has a much more convincing case against him.
Point B is absolutely correct. During the steroid/PED era the rule that players cannot take prescription drugs without a prescription was on the books and had been for years. Maybe BioGenesis would be a technical dodge to that rule, except by the time BioGenesis came around the PED ban had been added to the books.
Plus, as I mentioned, anabolic steroids themselves have been illegal under U.S. law since the Crime Control Act in 1990. (Commissioner Vincent even made a statement reminding the players of such the next year.) The same is also true under Canadian Law since the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act in 1996.
This will be an unpopular post but I can’t help but believe that his late career renaissance – in his mid thirties, and after he had a couple of down years that would fit a normal aging profile, – are owed to steroids. And to hit the way he did in his final year at age 40… well, just color me skeptical.
If he did, he found a heck of a way to mask it from all the drug tests he took over those years.
How many drug tests to Lance Armstrong pass? How many Alabama football players have failed a drug test? The SEC is not interested in actually catching users, instead they are interested in the public relations aspect that their testing has created clean programs. I am not confident that the MLB testing program as collectively bargained with the players union is any more robust.
Ask Ryan Braun about MLB drug testing..
sbf21’s stance is like saying “David Ortiz used steroids from 2010-2016, prove I’m wrong!”
It’s an impossible standard & too subjective. All we have to go on is the drug tests. You start getting into “I think Player X used” & “Mike Piazza had backne” & it ends up becoming a popularity contest that would be used to keep out guys that the media didn’t like.
To be clear, I’m not saying “prove me wrong.” Obviously that can’t be done. I’m just stating what I believe. As TerryMc rightly points out, testing for PEDs was and, I’d presume, still is, not very reliable. Just ask A-Rod.
At age 40, David Ortiz posted both the 2nd-lowest strikeout rate of his career, and the 2nd-highest isolated slugging. And this, as you mentioned, sbf, was after completely reversing a relatively normal standard decline over multiple seasons in his early 30’s.
When a hitter turns into Ted Williams at age 40, after previously being, whatever you prefer to call it, connected or linked or what have you to illegal performance-enhancing drugs, the most logical explanation is probably the correct one.
I mean, the man struck out 21% at age 33, and 24 % at age 34…and 14% after turning 40 years old. Let’s be realistic about the why.
‘Let’s be realistic’ is really a way of saying, ‘Prove a negative.’ I don’t know if you’ve noticed but there is certain QB in Tampa Bay who put up one of the best seasons in his career, at age 43. There will always be outliers and anomalies but past that, due to advances in, legal, training, conditioning, nutrition and tech, guys are having much longer primes, including into their 40s, all across professional sports. Perhaps Ortiz dedicated himself to film review, or got a new strength and conditioning coach, or new contact lenses for chrissakes.
As far as Bonds goes, they may not have seen him shoot anyone but he’s surrounded by smoking guns.
I’m saying “let’s be realistic.” That’s all I’m saying.
And if for example David Ortiz un-retired this winter — or any other 46-year-old former major leaguer for that matter — and batted, say, .300/.400/.600 in 2022, it would in my opinion be willful ignorance on anyone’s part to assume anything *except* drug cheating.
Presumption of innocence is one of the great strengths of the American criminal justice system. It is NOT however used for *civil* justice, and it is not very useful for the public discussion of public figures like Papi. I’m not suggesting anyone should prove a negative. I’m asking reasonable, informed, intelligent Fangraphs readers to ask themselves honestly, do they really think Ortiz wasn’t an illegal PED user? What’s likeliest, clean or dirty?
Whether he “deserves” to or not by JAWS or WAR or anything else, he was one of baseball’s biggest names and faces for one of the most successful teams during his time. He’s going to be in first ballot.
He’s going in, just not on the first ballot. I mean, just my guess.
One of the greatest pure home run hitters of all time.
I truly think it is fitting that he will likely be inducted in his first ballot at the same time Bonds and Clemens will not go in for their final year or eligibility.
Some voters might vote for him just for that.
Not everybody votes solely on stats. History has shown that narrative matters.
Ortiz, being a DH, *is* a marginal case but he is marginal at the high end, 70-74%, not at the low end. The only question is whether he gets in on the first or second ballot. And when it comes to narratives, what narrative if he just fails to get in?
I’d bet a sixpack he gets in. I might be wrongbut it’s a bet I can afford to lose. 😀
I get that he was a popular player who won the World Series several times with popular teams, but Johnny Damon and Dustin Pedroia finished with similar bWAR and won’t get in. Dwight Gooden is another player in that similar bWAR group who was an extremely popular/iconic player who won championships with popular teams and didn’t get in or any real consideration. If this is a viable way to get in it should apply to more players.
Well thank god it’s not the Hall of bWAR
I wasn’t just talking about WAR though. I was talking about iconic players on championship teams, which applies to both Gooden and Pedroia (maybe not Damon?) and they are also 2 guys who are hard to leave out of the Story of Baseball, just like Ortiz. If it was the Hall of WAR I could have used the dozens of other players around him that never got any consideration at all, but Ortiz has a better case than those guys. I just don’t get what puts him ahead of the guys with similar WAR and also have a similar narrative pull as well.
Don’t the repeated wrist injuries early in his career indicate that PEDs may have been an issue well before he got caught?
No. Anabolic steroids aren’t associated with wrist injuries in any study that I’m aware of.
Thanks for the hard work in putting together this article and running the various arguments to ground, Jay, but you could have just replaced this entire article with the simple sentence “David Ortiz is a Hall of Famer.”
Those who disagree are invited to make their case in any bar in New England, and are advised to bring running shoes and a fast getaway car if they value their bodily integrity!
Well if a bunch of mouth-breathing yokels will resort to physical violence if you disagree with them, then I guess their position must be correct. In other news, Trump is the real president.
Wow, reacting pretty strongly to what I thought was an obvious effort at humor.
It was a poor effort at humor, but a strong effort at Boston self-importance.
My takeaway is that Pedro should be inducted again
But not on the first ballot. Second inductions on First Ballots should be reserved for true all-time inner circle within the inner circle greats
All snark aside, who the heck would qualify for that “true all-time inner circle within the inner circle greats” if not Pedro? Dude put up Bob Gibson numbers in the most inflated offensive era in baseball history.
Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, and if you ignore character clause, then Roger Clemens, too.
Pedro had an inner circle’s inner circle peak, but you can’t completely whole career, where he was not nearly as great.
I hope he gets in for the comedic hypocrisy alone
This is one situation in which I cannot stand back and fail to defend the man who has meant more to Red Sox baseball than any other. That’s right! Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski are the only two contenders and how many World Series Championships did they bring to Boston. While they may have been better players, neither left a more indelible mark on the history of the team I have followed passionately since I first went to a game in Fenway in1948 than the man Red Sox Nation lovingly calls “Big Papi”. Where do I start? 542 HR’s is a good place. Is it fair to ask if clutch is real? Any professional athlete in any sport will tell you that it is. I certainly saw it while playing professional golf for almost 50 years. To any Red Sox fan, or any honest baseball fan for that matter, David Ortiz certainly made it look like there is a clutch gene. In two of the greatest games ever played, it was he who delivered the walk-off hit. His HR in Game 7, after Damon had just been thrown out the plate on the relay from Jeter, that instantly turned that game back in the Red Sox favor is often overlooked, but it shouldn’t be, neither can his Grand Slam off Benoit that brought the Red Sox back from the brink of being down 2-0 in 2013. Then to top it off the incredible 11-16 with 8 BB’s in the 2013 WS. I think it reasonable to say that his star has been the brightest in the 21st century when his entire contribution to baseball and Boston. For all these reasons, I obviously believe that he is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
Without at all intending to dis you, I think most of us have a favorite player, and maybe we don’t have an entirely objective view of that player. If you are saying Ortiz is the best player of the 21st Century, I don’t see that at all….A-Rod, Albert, Chipper, Trout all rank above him. That’s no shame…they just are empirically better. As to the greatest Red Sox….I don’t know how you pick anyone over Ted Williams, but again, if Ortiz is your hero, why not?
I didn’t read this as suggesting he was the best player of the 21st century but that he was very very good player with a lot of non-stat related reasons for being inducted “I think it reasonable to say that his star has been the brightest in the 21st century when his entire contribution to baseball and Boston [is considered]” Anyway if being the best player of the century is a criteria we’re going to have a micro-hall
certainly no bias here
Ortiz is the greatest DH of all time, especially with his postseason resume. He deserves to make it in. Given the nature of when and how he failed the PED test, I think it’s a non-issue compared to more egregious examples.
Second greatest DH of all time.
A few years after they’re in, I don’t think Ortiz, Sheffield, Allen, and A. Jones will look like the borderline cases that many consider them to be now. They’ll look like solid, no-brainer inductions. Among the most fearsome sluggers of their time (first three)? The greatest defensive outfielder, maker of more than 400 HRs? Will people really continue to say they lowered the standard? Maybe they’re below the median HoFer, but the biggest reason they look borderline now is because they’re not in yet.
Actually, Shoeless Joe Jackson’s 7.5 bWAR in his “farewell season” of 1920 still beats out Ortiz’s 5.2. Yes, there were massive extenuating circumstances, but it still counts as Jackson’s final year.,
I think Jay is right and the voters will gerrymander their thinking to put Ortiz in before Bonds. He’s a no for me right now, just like all the other PED folks are a no, until we get some consensus on how to treat this cadre. Manfred’s leaping to Ortiz’s defense is not dispositive because MLB was hiring Ortiz to be a good will ambassador, and the “supplements” line is too familiar. I have no idea who is telling the truth, and if I had a vote, I’d vote to wait. That’s not a never, but it’s a wait. And someone should explain to me why Ortiz races in, while McGwire, his superior in WAR, is nowhere. There’s a type of injustice going on….Selig clearly gave tacit approval to the big-muscled guys like McGwire (and Sosa) because they put fannies in seats.
I’m generally against putting in any of the guys who very, very likely used PEDs but Ortiz’s defense is among the more plausible ones I’ve heard.
All that said, I also think that we’re about to witness a tour de force performance in motivated reasoning. No one has provided any objective reason why Ortiz should be in aside from the fact that he hit a lot of homers. The fact that he was an incredibly charismatic guy who played for a team with a high profile and a ton of fans and made a lot of people very happy is certainly an interesting reason. But it’s a little jarring to see people giving so much leeway for his personality when in every other case they insist non-playing factors should have nothing to do with it.
I appreciate your position but in the end it’s the Hall of *fame*, not the hall of performance. Politics and narrative do matter.
Ortiz was charismatic and likeable and delivered on the biggest stage. Repeatedly.
At a certain point legend takes over objective measurements.
Clemens and Bonds? Object lessons for the future,,much as Shoeless Joe, as far as many voters are concerned.
It may or not be rational but humans aren’t rational, rather rationalizing.
your posts in this thread have been pretty strange to me. i have to admit i didnt see the whole ‘who was this big papi guy? i guess he was kinda charismatic? i guess he did well in the postseason?’ take coming. did you actually watch baseball from 2003-2013??
at any rate, mgdwsu89 laid out the case pretty eloquently above in case you missed that. please read that comment if you haven’t already. im not saying you’re wrong. actually you’re probably correct if we’re going strictly by the numbers. and if you want a small hall or a HOWAR, that’s certainly your right. but to me it feels like youre not seeing the forest for the trees on this one.
while we’re at it, im kinda shocked to see that you dont want PED users in either. again, youre allowed your opinion obviously, but a HOF without barry bonds in it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. especially for someone like you who pretty clearly only looks at the numbers when deciding who should be in.
I lived in Boston during his peak. I saw him live. I remember the walk offs. Trust me, I am aware of his big hits and charisma. But we are giving him all kinds of benefits we are not giving to other candidates.
Ortiz is worthy if you have a different interpretation of the positional adjustment , Retrosheet guy Tom Thress Player Win Loss Records has Ortiz has a > 70 win player + having the outstanding playoff record, he’s a slam dunk by that measure. Matthew Cornwell has PARC-ds at Baseball Fever, he’s got Ortiz just across the HOF line.
Great work here Jay- I would have never thought to compare Ortiz to Stargell, but that’s why I come here.
The championship probability added really does underscore how crazy that 2011 world series was. Berkman and Freeze both really made a lot of hay that one night.
And also, wow, Hal Smith?
He won’t go in this year. It will be interesting to see how he does next year when all those big names leave the ballot. I suspect he will linger in the 50-60 range while people try to rationalize the whole DH thing. But the PED stain may keep him from 75%. Hard to tell.
The positional adjustments for DH at both Fangraphs and Reference are problematic. They’re just sort of made up. And while they punish the player for not playing the field they don’t account for the DH/PH penalty that hitters face when playing that position. This skews the WAR totals for Ortiz and other DHs.
“They’re just sort of made up.”
Actually they’re 100% made up. Tom Tango admitted as much. That being said, there’s really no good way to derive a positional adjustment for DH. For the other positions, you can look at how teams trade off offense for defense. But that’s obviously impossible to do for DH since the whole point is that they don’t play defense.
Here ya go:
https://tht.fangraphs.com/re-examining-wars-defensive-spectrum/
Writer suggests DHs should be considered as 1B and given the appropriate defensive penalty. There also is some positional scarcity: yeah, anyone can DH, but teams sure do often struggle to find someone to slot in there who can, you know, hit.
Sure, there is. Just make it 0, since his lack of defense isn’t hurting his team, and an average AAA replacement DH (which by definition should be worth 0 WAR) generates just as much defensive value or lack thereof.
While it’s true that most DHs (although not all of them) do generate negative defensive value when forced to play the field, it’s just a quirk of the position of DH itself that they in reality become more valuable players when at DH.
As such, Ortiz really does belong in the Hall of Fame based on his numbers alone.
Although he’s clearly a statistically borderline case (at best), Big Papi will definitely get into the HoF sooner or later. Many people clearly *want* him in the Hall, and whether that means he gets in first ballot or he gets in Gil Hodges style, he’ll get in. I’ll celebrate the man’s accomplishments and the fun I had watching him play whenever he does.
Sir, I am apoplectic following these HOF ballots. I do feel that MLB and the HOF are responsible for this nonsense, but how is ballot #12 going Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz…and A-Rod? And not just A-Rod, but this voter dropped Manny. What in the actual F is the rationale there?!
Look at it again. He added a vote for Manny compared to last year.
Anyway, obviously, this guy doesn’t care about PEDs at all in his votes. Despite personally disagreeing with it, it’s a perfectly fine rationale. He just didn’t have any room on his ballot for Sosa. Out of all 10 of his votes, the only one I disagree with based on his baseball career alone is Vizquel.
Why I say yes to Ortiz and no to Bonds. It’s not all about on field production. Bonds was a surly, caustic person who showed little or no joy during his career. Papi was the most fun loving, ebullient, and joyful player I have ever seen. And, for his 2013 rallying speech alone, I think he deserves a plaque in Cooperstown. And the entire city of Boston would agree. Papi transcends the sport of baseball like few others: that spirit needs to be celebrated in the HOF. Yes, Bonds was a much greater player. But that is only one piece of the puzzle.
BOnds on field joy while in SF was quite present. His press interviews were brutal but after the way the press treated his father and what the press does today I will side with Bonds on the press debate. We tend to see what we want to see in our heroes. For a Boston fan I am sure Ortiz was awesome, for a Giants’ fan Bonds was incredibly fun to watch.
Like the consensus, I see Ortiz getting in, but there is some drama over whether he does on the first ballot. I haven’t been following any opinion pieces from the voting body, but it would not surprise me if some of the “NO” voters on Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc. view Ortiz getting popped in 2003 as a non issue, or at least one that can be waved away. In the minds of seemingly many, Ortiz’s career basically didn’t start until 2003 when he joined the Red Sox and it’s his body of work with that team that is being considered for Cooperstown. The fact that he never failed a steroid test post 2003 will help him as opposed to some of the other 2003 cases that saw the bulk of their value accrued before that year. I am not saying that’s the correct approach one should take, but it won’t surprise me to see writers using a similar justification for someone like Ortiz over Sosa or Palmeiro.
I am personally pretty analytical in my choice for the Hall, but Ortiz is one of the few examples where I don’t even feel particularly interested in finding comps and poking holes in his resume. I just don’t see how one could have a baseball Hall of Fame without him. And it’s not like we’re talking about someone with the statistical resume of Pokey Reese here. He was inarguably a great hitter for a long stretch of time and his statistical case is really only harmed by how we quantify value. If he doesn’t get in this year then he probably will next year after some players fall off as I can see him getting passed over in favor of some of them and because he’s in no danger of being one and done. And if I’m way underplaying his statistical resume and his 2003 test results on the minds of the voting body, then surely he gets in via a committee one day, but I highly doubt it comes to that.
Me in 2007: these roiders have ruined the hallowedness of 755, 61, and the 500-club forever. Clemens is a chemical-fueled android. I hope they never sniff Cooperstown. I want them banned from the game. I want Congress to revoke the antitrust exemption. Up there with climate change, PEDs contributed more than I care to admit to my declensionist view of history.
Thing is, while the roiders forever ruined a part of baseball I loved, I never really thought the problem was cheating, exactly. Yes, yes, it was cheating, an illegal upperhand. But what sickened me was what it meant for the living record-holders and legends and how we remember them.
But I didn’t really think players were truly cheating one another, and I don’t think they thought so either. None of us, for example, talk about the World Series champions of the time as being tainted. I assumed then, and I’m more convinced now, that steroids were everywhere, up and down the talent spectrum, that clubhouses were awash in them. You’ll notice how few major leaguers were openly resentful of steroids in the game, how few whistleblowers, so few that I remember them. Thousands of guys have filtered through clubhouses since the 1990s, including lots of fringy players who have little to lose by speaking up. I was always shocked to hear that “pure” future inner-circle HoFs were known besties with obvious roiders. Bonds was famously an asshole, and yet fellow players didn’t call him out on the roids. Maybe because they didn’t think PEDs were a big deal, real cheating. Maybe because they had been PED-curious themselves, or used regularly. It doesn’t seem that PED use represented for players some kind of dramatic, fateful choice.
I’ve come to terms with the likelihood that a lot of folks deemed pure because their names never turned up in investigations were not actually pure. In 2002, I was in a spring training clubhouse as a reporter. Baseball wasn’t my beat, but I was working on a baseball story. I felt like I was on another planet. So many of the players looked like another species, much closer to professional wrestlers than fine-tuned athletes. And forgive the cliché, but covered in acne, including one future HoFer often praised for doing things the right way. These are things I noticed before making the PED connection, because PEDs weren’t really a headline yet. I hardly knew what they were. Beat reporters whiffed on the steroids right under their noses because the weirdness was normalized for them, as it was normalized for the players.
We have the tools now that allow us to put the 1990s and 2000s in statistical perspective, and we know exactly how Ortiz’s 541 compares to the greats of the past. If he doesn’t measure up, fine. But don’t keep him out because he cheated.
That said, let Arod and Manny wait another decade or four.
“ In the eyes of baseball… Ortiz is a zero-time offender. He never has failed a test that featured individual discipline, and he never has been charged with a non-analytical positive”
Aren’t there a lot of players who are currently frozen out of HOF ballots this could be said about?
Yeah, but there is significant alternative evidence against guys like Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa.
Indeed, a much, much larger body of circumstantial evidence.
This is kind of my point – to frame Ortiz’ candidacy in these terms overlooks that there are other PED related terms by which players have been held out, some of which are directly relevant to Ortiz himself. It sounds like an argument on Ortiz’ behalf but it basically amounts to “If you only consider the PED standards by which he isn’t implicated, he isn’t implicated”, and it goes without saying that goes without saying.
Ortiz belongs in the HoF. I believe he will be elected. I’m frankly more interested in watching the tortured and twisted logic of BBWAA members who said they’d never never vote for any player suspected of taking PEDs but will now vote for a player associated with PEDs but who they happen to personally like. It will even more interesting doing it on a ballot that will include vastly greater players such as Bonds, Clemens and now A-Rod, who will not be elected.
I don’t believe Ortiz will make it on year one of the ballot simply because it will be too painful for some writers to have the spotlight put on their inconsistencies by voting for Ortiz and not Bonds and Clemens. Enough will wait until Bonds and Clemens have sunsetted off the ballot before they check the box for Ortiz. A-Rod will still be on the ballot, but they’ll use the suspension as their excuse to now vote for one PEDster and not another.
To be clear, Bonds, Clemens and Ortiz all deserve entrance to the Hall from my perspective. MLB has not in any way disavowed their career stats, they did not put them on the permanent ineligible list as they have done with Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. They in essence have sanctioned their careers. They’ve sanctioned their stats. They sanctioned the games they played in. They sanctioned the era. They even sanctioned the steroid commissioner so he could be elected to the HoF. The writers, or a small enough but still large enough group, are the ones who have taken it upon themselves to feed the moral outrage while deciding they will be judge, jury and executioner with their ballots and #2 pencils.
Summary of arguments it seems is:
1) From 2003 on he did not test positive for PEDs
2) He had a great post season career
3) He was beloved and is a huge part of history of baseball in 2000’s
Based on his stats it seems there is agreement that he is a marginal HoFer. Guys like McGriff, Sheffield and others seem like similar comparisons.
So he did not test positive… Bonds did not test positive either nor did many others that are being quasi-banned.
Yes he had a great post season career, McGriff’s post season numbers are actually very similar and McGriff had the story book 1993 season when after he arrived in Atlanta they played almost .800 baseball to win the division.
Bagwell and many other players were loved in their home towns, so many players had great careers and were beloved but are not HoF material.
If I had a vote, Ortiz would be on the fence (Bonds, Clemens, etc…. would be in so I am not on fence regarding PEDs). I really don’t understand McGriff being completely forgotten as I would have him on fence too as one of the top hitters (top 5-9 or so) for almost 13 years (1988 to 2001) and a good defensive 1b. What holds McGriff back is his position, he is not one of the top 1b ever and is really not close, so McGriff gets sort of punished for being a good/average fielder and a hitter similar to Ortiz. If McGriff had been a DH he would be with Edgar as one of the best ever along with Ortiz.
I just don’t think the argument for Ortiz is even close to a no brainer like so many here think it is.
Ortiz’ World Series numbers are great and all, but I would argue that the two best World Series hitters ever, adjusted for era conditions, are Bobby Brown and my namesake, Pepper Martin, neither of whom sniffed the Hall.
Pepper Martin (1928, 1931, 1934 WS): 60 PA, .418/.467/.636, 14 runs scored in 15 games, 7 SB. He almost single handedly won the 1931 World Series for the Gas House Gang Cardinals (my favorite team of all time), hitting .500/.538/.792 with 5 R, 4 2B, 1 HR, 5 SB, and 5 RBI in a 7 game victory. Pepper was, like most of those Cardinals, a memorable personality, and a pretty good player over all. He made the first 3 All Star Games in 1933-35, then again in 37. He led the NL in SB 3 times and R once. WAR doesn’t like him because of poor 3B defense, except his standout 1933 season, when he got .316/.387/.456, with a league leading 122 R and 26 SB. Both fWAR and bWAR call that his only 5 win season; bWAR has him at 6.2. He’s my favorite player ever.
Bobby Brown is in many ways more interesting. He played in the 1947, 49, 50, and 51 WS, totaling 46 PA’s. He first came to notice in the 1947 WS, where he pinch hit in 4 games, and in 4 plate appearances got 3 hours and a walk, including 2 2Bs, for 3 RBI and 3 runs scored. Totaled a 1.000/1.000/1.667 slash line in 4 games. Over 17 total WS games and 46 PA’s. He hit .439/.500/.707, with 5 doubled and 3 triples among his 18 hits. Unlike Martin, Brown wasn’t much of a player at all. A utility infielder, he only once topped 400 PA’s in a season, with 417 in 1948. bWAR has him at 6.8 for his career. Fangraphs has him at 7.2 in 8 seasons. He went to medical school WHILE playing for the Yankees, and was a cardiologist for many years before returning to baseball to be the President of the American League from 1984 to 1994. His death earlier this year as the last living member of the Yankees’ 1947, 1949, 1950, and 1951 World Series teams leaves, I believe, Willie Mays of the 1954 Giants as the Survivor of the earliest World Series winning team.
And if you drop the sample size: Dusty Rhodes hit .667/.714/1.667 over the course of his 7 PA World Series career.
This is a situation in which it’s necessary to think a little about the positional adjustment for DHs. Ortiz has -247.7 Def on FG, which is about -25 wins. And that’s weird. While it’s true that DHs do not *add* value defensively, they do not *subtract* value either. They are definitionally neutral. It’s weird to punish them — pretty significantly, too — for not having the opportunity to play on defense.
Positional adjustments in the Def component of WAR are not measuring anything performance-related, they are making a subjective claim about players’s relative *abilities*. That’s a strange thing to do. I’m not really sure what the best thing is to do about it, since I think players should get credit for playing in more difficult positions, but I don’t think DHs should be dinged so much (if at all). We don’t usually subtract pitchers’ offense from their pitching in these conversations.
So if you give Papi 25 more wins it’s an easy call in terms of the value. Add in the fame and the postseason performances — he absolutely dominated my Cardinals in two World Series — and he deserves to be in, unless you’re a *super* PEDs hardliner.
Couldn’t agree more. The positional adjustments in WAR – especially for DH and 1B – really need rethought in my opinion. Ortiz’ 5-6 WAR seasons are essentially the maximum a DH can reach given the extremely harsh positional adjustment penalties. He was in the running for best hitter in the league like 5 or 6 seasons in his career. Add in his postseason heroics and I think this really should be a no-brainer HOF induction.
I’m late to the party here but the Mitchell Report was addressed a couple times in the article and should be commented on.
The Red Sox were the only team that did not have a player mentioned in the Report. In hindsight I’m pretty sure we can all see the fault in that now. Mitchell had some ownership interest in the Red Sox when he was preparing the report, which, in my mind, invalidates its validity regarding Red Sox players.
Leaked names have more value than that Report.
Fitting to compare “Pops” Stargell & “Big Papi” Ortiz/Arias; it was obvious the ‘79 Pirates were a lot more fun to be a part of than the Big Red Machine” they beat in the ‘79 playoffs… a little like the joyful “idiots” of 2004 who lacked the good sense to understand what trailing a loaded Yankees team 3 games to zero meant ;-}
Marvin Miller also suffered from a lack of fielding expertise but the baseball HOF suffered to the point of being farcical by his exclusion; same deal for me with these guys.
Rose, Bonds, Clemons and even Sosa & McGuire… their numbers & memorabilia put them in the hall already even without an individual plaque, but the story of baseball needs to shape itself to the history that numbers alone cannot articulate.