Last Year’s WAR with True-Talent Defense
I’ll begin by saying I’m not sure what value all of what’s to follow actually has. I know that’s about the least-compelling way to begin a blog post, but I just want that to be very clear. TangoTiger’s recent Building a Better WAR Metric series on the site jumpstarted an idea I’d been kicking around in my head for a while. It’s an idea that mostly exists because I’ve seen people on the internet say they’d want to see something like it, and, at the very least, it could serve as a talking point for another constructive discussion about WAR, and any constructive discussion about WAR is a good thing, because we all admit it’s far from perfect and constructive discussions usher progress.
People don’t really have beef with the offensive side of WAR, I don’t think. As far as sabermetric stats go, wRC+, and therefore wRAA, are about as infallible as they come. Tough to argue with the outcomes of history. I don’t see too many quibbles with the base-running numbers, partially because I think most people think they do a good job, but also because they don’t move the needle much either way, and there’s bigger fish to fry. Some people aren’t fans of the positional adjustments — both the assigned weights, and the entire concept of including them. I’m in the camp that firmly believes in the idea of the positional adjustment, but, like anything, the formula for the weights could always be looked at to see if it could be improved in any way, and Jeff Zimmerman’s work on this topic last offseason was a great place to start.
But the bigger beef, beyond the positional adjustments, is of course defense. Anyone will admit this is the weak link of WAR. It’s probably the weakest link of sabermetrics, as a whole, in 2016. And mostly, what it boils down to is, we know that defensive metrics don’t stabilize until the sample spans roughly three years, or 3,000-ish innings. Meaning, the single-season data is subject to noise, and if we wanted to draw any conclusions from it, we’d have to regress it. Despite that, single-season WAR is powered by noisy, unregressed, single-season defensive metrics. That’s the crux of the beef with WAR.
So, some folks have suggested that the defensive component of WAR ought to be regressed in some way, in an effort to strip out some of the noise that comes with single-year defensive data, or to better capture a defender’s true performance. I think there are a number of flaws in this general line of thinking, but there are a number of flaws with the way it’s being done now, too, so let’s humor one another.
Both ZiPS and Steamer use multiple years of data, giving more weight to the most recent seasons. Multiple years of data to weed out noise? Check. Both also incorporate some form of “scouting” information: Steamer regresses toward the results of the Fans Scouting Report, ZiPS searches for keywords in actual, physical scouting reports and uses those as a means for regression. Eye test? Check. Blend all that together and factor in some aging curves, and you’ve got yourself as good an idea of any player’s true-talent defensive ability as you’re going to find. Sort the Fld column here and I think you’ll agree that these numbers pass the eye test with flying colors.
So let’s imagine a world where, last year, every player performed exactly to their true-talent defensive ability. Everyone hit the same, everyone ran the same, everyone had the same amount of playing time, but defensively, we knew exactly what everyone’s true-talent ability was worth, and no one varied from it.
In that world, last year’s WAR leaderboard, in sortable, scrolling fashion, would look like this:

| Name | TT_WAR | 2015_WAR | TT_RANK | 2015_RANK | RANK_DIF | WAR_DIF | DIF_stDEV |
| Bryce Harper | 9.9 | 9.5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0.4 | 0.8 |
| Mike Trout | 9.1 | 9 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Josh Donaldson | 8.8 | 8.7 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Paul Goldschmidt | 7.6 | 7.4 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0.2 | 0.4 |
| Joey Votto | 7.6 | 7.4 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Manny Machado | 7.5 | 6.8 | 6 | 6 | 0 | 0.7 | 1.3 |
| A.J. Pollock | 6.7 | 6.6 | 7 | 8 | 1 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Kris Bryant | 6.3 | 6.5 | 8 | 10 | 2 | -0.2 | -0.4 |
| Lorenzo Cain | 6.1 | 6.6 | 9 | 9 | 0 | -0.5 | -0.9 |
| Anthony Rizzo | 5.9 | 5.5 | 10 | 15 | 5 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Buster Posey | 5.8 | 5.7 | 11 | 13 | 2 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Andrew McCutchen | 5.7 | 5.8 | 12 | 12 | 0 | -0.1 | -0.2 |
| Mookie Betts | 5.6 | 4.8 | 13 | 22 | 9 | 0.8 | 1.4 |
| Yoenis Cespedes | 5.5 | 6.7 | 14 | 7 | -7 | -1.2 | -2.1 |
| Nelson Cruz | 5.4 | 4.8 | 15 | 23 | 8 | 0.6 | 1.1 |
| Chris Davis | 5.2 | 5.6 | 16 | 14 | -2 | -0.4 | -0.7 |
| Jose Bautista | 5.2 | 4.5 | 17 | 27 | 10 | 0.7 | 1.2 |
| Matt Carpenter | 5.2 | 5.2 | 18 | 17 | -1 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Nolan Arenado | 5.1 | 4.5 | 19 | 28 | 9 | 0.6 | 1.1 |
| Jason Heyward | 4.7 | 6 | 20 | 11 | -9 | -1.3 | -2.3 |
| Matt Duffy | 4.7 | 4.9 | 21 | 21 | 0 | -0.2 | -0.3 |
| Curtis Granderson | 4.5 | 5.1 | 22 | 19 | -3 | -0.6 | -1.0 |
| Miguel Cabrera | 4.4 | 4.3 | 23 | 31 | 8 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Jason Kipnis | 4.3 | 5.2 | 24 | 18 | -6 | -0.9 | -1.5 |
| Edwin Encarnacion | 4.3 | 4.5 | 25 | 29 | 4 | -0.2 | -0.3 |
| Adam Eaton | 4.3 | 3.6 | 26 | 46 | 20 | 0.7 | 1.2 |
| Ian Kinsler | 4.1 | 4.2 | 27 | 36 | 9 | -0.1 | -0.1 |
| J.D. Martinez | 4.1 | 5 | 28 | 20 | -8 | -0.9 | -1.5 |
| Adrian Beltre | 4.1 | 4.6 | 29 | 25 | -4 | -0.5 | -0.9 |
| Dee Gordon | 4.1 | 4.6 | 30 | 26 | -4 | -0.5 | -0.9 |
| Kevin Kiermaier | 4.1 | 5.5 | 31 | 16 | -15 | -1.4 | -2.5 |
| Brandon Crawford | 4.1 | 4.7 | 32 | 24 | -8 | -0.6 | -1.1 |
| Brandon Belt | 4.0 | 4.3 | 33 | 32 | -1 | -0.3 | -0.5 |
| Todd Frazier | 4.0 | 4.4 | 34 | 30 | -4 | -0.4 | -0.7 |
| Michael Brantley | 4.0 | 3.8 | 35 | 41 | 6 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Evan Longoria | 4.0 | 4.2 | 36 | 37 | 1 | -0.2 | -0.4 |
| Xander Bogaerts | 3.9 | 4.3 | 37 | 33 | -4 | -0.4 | -0.6 |
| Mike Moustakas | 3.9 | 3.8 | 38 | 42 | 4 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Francisco Cervelli | 3.9 | 3.8 | 39 | 43 | 4 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Kyle Seager | 3.8 | 3.9 | 40 | 39 | -1 | -0.1 | -0.1 |
| Logan Forsythe | 3.8 | 4.1 | 41 | 38 | -3 | -0.3 | -0.5 |
| David Peralta | 3.8 | 3.7 | 42 | 45 | 3 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Josh Reddick | 3.7 | 3 | 43 | 61 | 18 | 0.7 | 1.3 |
| Eric Hosmer | 3.7 | 3.5 | 44 | 50 | 6 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Russell Martin | 3.7 | 3.5 | 45 | 51 | 6 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Starling Marte | 3.7 | 3.6 | 46 | 47 | 1 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Jose Altuve | 3.6 | 4.3 | 47 | 34 | -13 | -0.7 | -1.3 |
| Kevin Pillar | 3.4 | 4.3 | 48 | 35 | -13 | -0.9 | -1.6 |
| Adrian Gonzalez | 3.4 | 3 | 49 | 62 | 13 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Brett Gardner | 3.3 | 2.6 | 50 | 70 | 20 | 0.7 | 1.3 |
| Justin Upton | 3.2 | 3.6 | 51 | 48 | -3 | -0.4 | -0.6 |
| Joc Pederson | 3.2 | 2.8 | 52 | 66 | 14 | 0.4 | 0.8 |
| Brian Dozier | 3.2 | 3.4 | 53 | 53 | 0 | -0.2 | -0.4 |
| Christian Yelich | 3.2 | 2.3 | 54 | 79 | 25 | 0.9 | 1.5 |
| Lucas Duda | 3.2 | 3.1 | 55 | 58 | 3 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Ryan Braun | 3.2 | 2.8 | 56 | 67 | 11 | 0.4 | 0.6 |
| Shin-Soo Choo | 3.2 | 3.5 | 57 | 52 | -5 | -0.3 | -0.6 |
| Odubel Herrera | 3.1 | 3.9 | 58 | 40 | -18 | -0.8 | -1.4 |
| Jose Abreu | 3.1 | 3 | 59 | 63 | 4 | 0.1 | 0.1 |
| Kole Calhoun | 3.0 | 3.8 | 60 | 44 | -16 | -0.8 | -1.4 |
| Andrelton Simmons | 3.0 | 3.2 | 61 | 56 | -5 | -0.2 | -0.4 |
| Ben Zobrist | 3.0 | 2.1 | 62 | 88 | 26 | 0.9 | 1.6 |
| Brian McCann | 2.9 | 2.9 | 63 | 64 | 1 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Adam Jones | 2.9 | 3.6 | 64 | 49 | -15 | -0.7 | -1.3 |
| Brandon Phillips | 2.9 | 2.6 | 65 | 71 | 6 | 0.3 | 0.5 |
| David Ortiz | 2.8 | 2.8 | 66 | 68 | 2 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Billy Burns | 2.8 | 2.3 | 67 | 80 | 13 | 0.5 | 0.9 |
| Robinson Cano | 2.8 | 2.1 | 68 | 89 | 21 | 0.7 | 1.2 |
| Alex Rodriguez | 2.7 | 2.7 | 69 | 69 | 0 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Gerardo Parra | 2.7 | 0.4 | 70 | 121 | 51 | 2.3 | 4.0 |
| Yunel Escobar | 2.6 | 2.1 | 71 | 90 | 19 | 0.5 | 0.9 |
| Kolten Wong | 2.6 | 2.3 | 72 | 81 | 9 | 0.3 | 0.5 |
| Neil Walker | 2.6 | 2.4 | 73 | 74 | 1 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Didi Gregorius | 2.5 | 3.1 | 74 | 59 | -15 | -0.6 | -1.0 |
| Stephen Vogt | 2.5 | 2.3 | 75 | 82 | 7 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Carlos Gonzalez | 2.4 | 2.4 | 76 | 75 | -1 | 0.0 | 0.1 |
| Derek Norris | 2.4 | 2.4 | 77 | 76 | -1 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Martin Prado | 2.3 | 3.1 | 78 | 60 | -18 | -0.8 | -1.4 |
| Jhonny Peralta | 2.3 | 1.7 | 79 | 99 | 20 | 0.6 | 1.1 |
| Ian Desmond | 2.3 | 1.7 | 80 | 100 | 20 | 0.6 | 1.1 |
| Gregory Polanco | 2.3 | 2.3 | 81 | 83 | 2 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Chris Coghlan | 2.3 | 3.3 | 82 | 54 | -28 | -1.0 | -1.8 |
| Troy Tulowitzki | 2.3 | 2.3 | 83 | 84 | 1 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Ender Inciarte | 2.3 | 3.3 | 84 | 55 | -29 | -1.0 | -1.8 |
| Yadier Molina | 2.3 | 1.3 | 85 | 109 | 24 | 1.0 | 1.7 |
| DJ LeMahieu | 2.3 | 1.9 | 86 | 95 | 9 | 0.4 | 0.6 |
| Dexter Fowler | 2.2 | 3.2 | 87 | 57 | -30 | -1.0 | -1.8 |
| Charlie Blackmon | 2.1 | 2.1 | 88 | 91 | 3 | 0.0 | 0.1 |
| Kendrys Morales | 2.1 | 2.1 | 89 | 92 | 3 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Chase Headley | 2.1 | 1.5 | 90 | 107 | 17 | 0.6 | 1.0 |
| Mitch Moreland | 2.1 | 2.1 | 91 | 93 | 2 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Prince Fielder | 2.0 | 1.6 | 92 | 102 | 10 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Salvador Perez | 2.0 | 1.6 | 93 | 103 | 10 | 0.4 | 0.6 |
| Addison Russell | 2.0 | 2.9 | 94 | 65 | -29 | -0.9 | -1.7 |
| Ben Revere | 1.9 | 1.9 | 95 | 96 | 1 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Carlos Santana | 1.9 | 2.4 | 96 | 77 | -19 | -0.5 | -0.9 |
| Trevor Plouffe | 1.8 | 2.5 | 97 | 72 | -25 | -0.7 | -1.2 |
| Brett Lawrie | 1.8 | 0.6 | 98 | 118 | 20 | 1.2 | 2.2 |
| Asdrubal Cabrera | 1.8 | 2.2 | 99 | 86 | -13 | -0.4 | -0.7 |
| Carlos Beltran | 1.8 | 1.9 | 100 | 97 | -3 | -0.1 | -0.2 |
| Brock Holt | 1.8 | 2.4 | 101 | 78 | -23 | -0.6 | -1.1 |
| Wilmer Flores | 1.8 | 1.9 | 102 | 98 | -4 | -0.1 | -0.3 |
| Adam Lind | 1.7 | 2.2 | 103 | 87 | -16 | -0.5 | -0.8 |
| Marcus Semien | 1.7 | 1.7 | 104 | 101 | -3 | 0.0 | 0.1 |
| Albert Pujols | 1.7 | 2 | 105 | 94 | -11 | -0.3 | -0.5 |
| Daniel Murphy | 1.7 | 2.5 | 106 | 73 | -33 | -0.8 | -1.5 |
| Yangervis Solarte | 1.6 | 1.6 | 107 | 104 | -3 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Elvis Andrus | 1.6 | 1.6 | 108 | 105 | -3 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Nick Markakis | 1.6 | 1.6 | 109 | 106 | -3 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Austin Jackson | 1.4 | 2.3 | 110 | 85 | -25 | -0.9 | -1.5 |
| Erick Aybar | 1.4 | 1 | 111 | 113 | 2 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Cameron Maybin | 1.3 | 1 | 112 | 114 | 2 | 0.3 | 0.5 |
| Freddy Galvis | 1.3 | 1.3 | 113 | 110 | -3 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Anthony Gose | 1.2 | 0.4 | 114 | 122 | 8 | 0.8 | 1.4 |
| Marlon Byrd | 1.2 | 1 | 115 | 115 | 0 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Matt Kemp | 1.1 | 0.4 | 116 | 123 | 7 | 0.7 | 1.2 |
| Mark Trumbo | 1.1 | 1.1 | 117 | 111 | -6 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Alcides Escobar | 1.1 | 1.5 | 118 | 108 | -10 | -0.4 | -0.8 |
| Jace Peterson | 0.9 | 1.1 | 119 | 112 | -7 | -0.2 | -0.4 |
| Starlin Castro | 0.8 | 0.8 | 120 | 117 | -3 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Joe Mauer | 0.7 | 0.3 | 121 | 125 | 4 | 0.4 | 0.6 |
| Jimmy Rollins | 0.6 | 0.2 | 122 | 127 | 5 | 0.4 | 0.8 |
| Wilson Ramos | 0.5 | 0.4 | 123 | 124 | 1 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Jay Bruce | 0.5 | 0.1 | 124 | 128 | 4 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Jose Reyes | 0.5 | 0.5 | 125 | 120 | -5 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Brandon Moss | 0.4 | 0.6 | 126 | 119 | -7 | -0.2 | -0.3 |
| Angel Pagan | 0.4 | -0.5 | 127 | 134 | 7 | 0.9 | 1.5 |
| Jean Segura | 0.3 | 0.3 | 128 | 126 | -2 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Evan Gattis | 0.1 | 0 | 129 | 129 | 0 | 0.1 | 0.2 |
| Logan Morrison | 0.0 | -0.2 | 130 | 131 | 1 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Michael Taylor | 0.0 | 1 | 131 | 116 | -15 | -1.0 | -1.9 |
| Alexei Ramirez | -0.1 | -0.5 | 132 | 135 | 3 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
| Melky Cabrera | -0.1 | -0.3 | 133 | 132 | -1 | 0.2 | 0.3 |
| Nick Castellanos | -0.2 | -0.1 | 134 | 130 | -4 | -0.1 | -0.1 |
| Ryan Howard | -0.4 | -0.4 | 135 | 133 | -2 | 0.0 | -0.1 |
| Chris Owings | -0.6 | -1.4 | 136 | 138 | 2 | 0.8 | 1.5 |
| Pablo Sandoval | -0.6 | -2 | 137 | 139 | 2 | 1.4 | 2.4 |
| Billy Butler | -0.8 | -0.7 | 138 | 136 | -2 | -0.1 | -0.2 |
| Avisail Garcia | -0.9 | -1.1 | 139 | 137 | -2 | 0.2 | 0.4 |
What can we take away from all this? Let’s get through some of the nerdy stuff first. The mean of the changes evens out to 0.0, and the standard deviation is 0.6 WAR. The changes are normally distributed, and a little more than two-thirds of all players fall within 0.5 WAR of their actual 2015 WAR. We know that WAR comes with error bars, and that, for example, 2.5 WAR and 3.0 WAR aren’t always all that different. The lack of certain in defensive metrics is most of the reason why, and this reinforces that the error bar for any player is likely within one win. Only six players out of 139 see their WAR change by more than two standard deviations — or more than 1.0 WAR.
Gerardo Parra is our only true outlier. His 2015 value, with estimated true-talent level defense, would have been +2.7 WAR. His actual 2015 value, according to WAR with UZR, was only +0.4 WAR. The 2.3-WAR difference is four standard deviations above the mean, which is crazy. Clearly, something is up here. For context, UZR had Parra pegged at -18, while DRS had him at -10. BaseballProspectus’ FRAA had him at just -0.5. Perhaps UZR was overly harsh on Parra last year. Perhaps the projections are being too generous with his current true-talent ability. For what it’s worth, I sought clarity on Parra’s defensive numbers back in November, and found some evidence that suggested Parra’s true-talent level has declined some, though I can’t objectively say whether that means I’d take the over or under on the estimation of the projections.
The next-largest gap between 2015 value and expected true-talent value belongs to Kevin Kiermaier, who comes in at +4.1 WAR with true-talent defense, and +5.5 WAR with 2015’s figures. UZR had Kiermaier pegged as a +30-run defender last year. And while that’s obviously not his true-talent level — we’ve got that estimated at +18 runs, which is still remarkable — I think this discrepancy highlights the issue with the line of thinking prevalent in this post. UZR had Kiermaier at +30, FRAA agreed at +31, and DRS thought those were both light, putting him at +42. Every system available to us suggested Kiermaier’s defense was worth north of three wins last year, yet we know that’s not his true-talent ability. Just like how Bryce Harper posted a 1.109 OPS, yet we know that’s not his true-talent ability.
Kiermaier robbed something like half-a-dozen home runs or more last season. Part of that is because he’s incredible, but he also probably got somewhat lucky in having more balls than usual hit to the exact sliver of space in which a fielder has the opportunity to a rob a home run. We’d never expect him to rob half-a-dozen or more home runs in a year moving forward, but he did, and he ought to get credit for that. Just like how a batter’s BABIP can be inflated by a bunch of balls being hit to just the right spot, a fielder’s defensive metrics can be inflated by a bunch of balls being hit to just the right spot that allow him to make a plus play.
On the flip-side of that coin, consider Juan Lagares, who doesn’t appear in the table because he wasn’t qualified, but whose fielding ability was valued at +3.5 runs last year, and whose true-talent fielding ability would’ve been +7.9 runs. We know Lagares is an excellent fielder, but we also know he was dealing with elbow problems that limited his greatest defensive asset — his arm. In other words, it would be silly to use anything like Lagares’ true-talent defensive numbers for last season, given we have reason to believe Lagares was performing well below his true-talent ability, just as we have reason to believe Victor Martinez was performing well below his true-talent ability at the plate, for the same reasons.
I don’t think it’s all bad, though. Aside from the outliers, this could help clean up plenty of guys’ defensive numbers. The scouting and eye test data we have seems to suggest Mookie Betts may be an even better defender than he was given credit for last year. Plenty of people seemed to think Yoenis Cespedes‘ value was boosted due to overly-optimistic numbers on his defense, and his estimated true-talent agrees and docks him a win.
This methodology has its flaws. Our current methodology has its flaws. I’m certainly not suggesting this is how things should be done — I think that would be a step backward, in fact. But more information can never hurt.
August used to cover the Indians for MLB and ohio.com, but now he's here and thinks writing these in the third person is weird. So you can reach me on Twitter @AugustFG_ or e-mail at august.fagerstrom@fangraphs.com.
I’m afraid I really don’t understand the point of this. It seems to conflate predictive reliability with accuracy. When assessing past performance, I don’t really care whether stats are reliable for prediction, I just want the most accurate estimate of the run value of what the player actually did.
It might be that this defensive true talent estimate also ends up being a more accurate estimate of what actually happened, on average, but I think you need to make that case first in order for this exercise to make much sense.
In fairness, you sort of hint at the conceptual weirdness of this in your opening sentence, so I’m guessing I’m not saying anything you haven’t already thought of.
A lot of people even on this site mis-understand when they’re using descriptive vs. predictive stats, so this article is an always useful reminder of the differences.
The Kiermaier paragraph (Kiermaier robbed something like half-a-dozen…) is also an underused train of logic in defending the defensive component in WAR. WAR gets discredited often for the accuracy issues in the defense calcs, which exist I know, but this discussion of opportunities does not happen enough. A player can put up worse defensive metrics simply because he had fewer tough play opportunities that impact the metrics most. He’s still equally as talented, but his descriptive stats do and should suffer, just like grounders squeaking through holes impacting a player’s Avg.
Point being I love this article just in that it reiterates a couple of great points that, based on plenty of comments on articles, the community still needs to hear more.
That’s a good point about the opportunities issue. I don’t think it’s much of a critique of WAR (which is a counting stat, after all, so isn’t meant to be a talent estimator), but it does highlight the potential value of defensive rate stats that are based on number of relevant opportunities, not just innings. Maybe something more like Inside Edge.
Co-sign.
The opportunities discussion is criminally under served.
Like Elias mentions below though, we have very course binning going on with fielding, which is often combined with very few non-routine opportunities that players can actually get value from. So, unlike BABIP for hitters, a few plays that are boarder line difficult or straight up misclassified as difficult, have the potential to swing the values a tremendous amount for fielders. So essentially, the problem is that UZR isn’t particularly good at actually measuring “what happened on the field” over the course of just one season.
For example, what if all those HRs Kiermaier robbed where actually exceeding easy plays and just about every OFer would have made them? How much credit should he actually get then? Obviously taking a HR off the board is huge, but what if the league average player makes those same plays 80% of the time?
Point taken and in support see Inciarte’s numbers for last two seasons.
But you clearly didn’t look up kiermaier’s catches heh.
Agree that WAR isn’t about prediction, so we want the components to measure “what actually happened.”
However, whereas something like the number of HRs a player hit can be measured with NO error, fielding metrics almost certainly contain some mismeasurement and therefore do not perfectly measure what actually happened.
So there is an argument for adjusting the fielding component for measurement error that has nothing to do with making WAR more predictive (even if that might be a side benefit).
I totally agree with this. But adjusting for measurement error isn’t the same thing as using estimated true talent (unless they accidentally overlap). If regressing towards league average has MGL has supported in the past seems more accurate a depiction of what happened, that’s the way to go.
“Whereas the number of HRs a player hit can be measured with NO error.”
Angel Hernandez, even with replay available, has already proven this statement false.
But I think you need to make that the most accurate estimate of what actually happened, on average, but I think you need to make that the most accurate estimate of what actually care whether stats are reliable for predictive reliability with accuracy. When assessing past performance, I don’t understand the run value of what the conceptually did.
It might be that this exercise to make much sense.
In fairness, you sort of hint at the conceptually don’t really don’t really don’t already thought of.edictive reliable for predictive reliability with accuracy. When assessing I’m afraid I really happened, on average, but I this exercise to make that case first in order for this.
I’m hearing this post in the voice of Matt Frewer as Max Headroom…
Ernie,
“It might be that this defensive true talent estimate also ends up being a more accurate estimate of what actually happened, on average, but I think you need to make that case first in order for this exercise to make much sense.”
But how are you ever going to do that? And its exactly because we can’t do that, that many people suggest using regressed fielding components in WAR and why this article was written. Basically, what it allows us to have is some sort of guess at which side of the error a player’s WAR likely resides. No need to overthink this.
At the end of the day, you might be right, and it’s just a matter of framing. But as we inch closer to better defensive info from statcast, and a more precise sense how player skills related to plays made and not made, it seems like a weird time to lose site of the real goal here.
It seems to me like stat cast will do just the opposite. What actually happens on the field is in part a huge matter of luck in where the defender lined up and the hitter hit the ball. Rather than trying to quantify what a player does, we will look at component skills (jump, speed, etc.) as measures of his skill and we won’t measure what he did at all, because really he was just a small part of the outcome–“what he did” misplaces responsibility on his shoulders. Our model of defensive skill will be component based and measure his context neutral expected runs saved over/under average.
But his component actions are what he did. I certainly agree that statcast’s greatest promise is assessing skills (i.e., estimating true talent), but it can also be used to more accurately classify actual past events. The two concepts will still be separate, but the same new tools can help with both.
i do have a beef with the offensive side of WAR. It should take K’s more seriously. If K’s are more important than other outs on evaluating pitchers, they should be more important than other outs in evaluating hitters.
No, because hitters have a great deal more control over balls in play, which we can see in stats like BABIP and ISO. Pitchers’ numbers are also very much influenced by the quality of the defense behind them, which could be very good or very bad – and is another reason to argue for stripping its effects out entirely – while hitters’ opposing defense changes every 3 days and is probably a wash, in the end.
“People don’t really have beef … they don’t move the needle much either way, and there’s bigger fish to fry.”
Okay, I guess we’re frying the big fish because we don’t have beef, but what’s the needle? Grill thermometer?
Yes. 180 is the ideal temperature for salmon, 175 for trout. Not sure about other grillables.
You’re wrong about Segura, he’s a five tooler who knows how to play. Why else would I trade for him??
If TT_WAR was calculated for every player, would total TT_WAR for a team better correlate to wins than fWAR? If it did, would TT_WAR be a better descriptive stat for a year even if it uses regressed stats?
I would submit that defense is so hard to quantify because it is the factor in baseball that is most influenced by the environment. Anything from wind, sun, water, lights, irregular ground can affect defense, often different at many places at the same time on the field. I always thought Willie Mays was such a great outfielder because he played at candlestick which had terrible conditions. At the plate you have a batters eye, in the field you are looking into the crowd.
DefWAR for Raul Ibanez, 2006-11:
-7.7
-27.4
-15.7
-3.3
-13.2
-25.5
Metrics such as UZR would not have been much use in predicting these numbers, but a tide chart might have helped.
You are actually conflating two different (but related) things and the distinction is important.
One is regressing UZR (or DRS or whatever metric) to try and estimate actual performance. Two is regressing performance in order to try and estimate true talent.
Those are two completely different things and you are not at all making it clear which one you mean in this article (and I don’t think you, and probably many of the readers, understand the difference).
The UZR (and DRS, etc.) you see on FG (and elsewhere) do not represent either true talent OR what actually happened.
To get to either one of those or both, the UZR that you see, over any time period, needs to be regressed. In order to estimate what actually happened, you need to regress the UZR numbers you see. In order to estimate true talent, you need to regress them even more.
You can, estimate true talent in one step by regressing the numbers you see, which is what most of the projection systems are doing.
What you are looking for, I think, it regressing the numbers you see in order to estimate what actually happened and not regressing them (even more) to represent true talent. Why?
Because the offensive component is NOT true talent. It, by definition reflects what actually happened, at least in terms of the components, s, d, t, hr, etc., adjusted for some of the context.
To combine true talent defense with actual performance offense is mixing apples and oranges.
Then again, combining “what happened offense” with computed defense (neither what actually happened nor true talent) or the UZR and DRS you see on the web site, is also mixing apples and oranges.
That is on me. I never explained until relatively recently, that the UZR you see is an estimate of what happened in the same way that performance is a sample/estimate of true talent.
The reason that UZR (and presumably DRS and other def metrics) has to be regressed to estimate what actually happened (i.e., it is a biased estimate) is simply because of the way the measurement error works in the UZR engine and the data. All the plays that UZR thinks are really hard when they are made (the ball is caught) are not really that hard. And all the plays that UZR thinks are easy when they are not made are not that easy. Part of that is the bias in the data (a play not made is recorded harder than a play made, even when that is not true) and part of that is the way the UZR engine works, unfortunately.
Let me explain the difference between UZR overstating (for plus numbers) or understating (for minus ones) UZR as compared to what actually happened and how it might also overstate and understate true talent.
A player is recorded as making more plays in a certain bucket than the average player. Say, it is a really difficult bucket, by location or speed of the ball, or something else. The player gets lots of credit by UZR or DRS for making that play. Let’s say that the average ball in that bucket gets caught maybe 20% of the time. If that player makes 2 extra plays in that bucket compared to the average fielder, he gets credit for like .8 * 2 plays. Almost all the batted ball defensive metrics work this way.
However, if we go back and look at those 2 extra catches by that player in the “20% normally caught” bucket, it will turn out that those 2 plays were not that hard after all. Maybe the stringer mis-recorded the ball (maybe it’s not his fault, there is only so detailed he can get or the data allow). Maybe the fielder was a lot closer to the location to start with, through no skill on his part. Etc. Now, that’s true on all caught balls in that zone (and on all non-caught balls, they were actually a lot harder than the bucket suggests (20% caught). In fact, if you read my research on this, on my blog, you will see that the differences in catches and non-catches even in a very narrow bucket can be quite large. In that 20% bucket, the catches are maybe 50% likely to be caught (estimated of course; we have no empirical way of knowing that since they were all caught!) and the non-catches maybe 10%. So really a player making 2 extra catches should get .5 *2 credit and not .8 *2. And a player making fewer catches should get docked .1 * 2 and not .2 * 2.
The result of this problem is that the spread of estimated performance is wider than it really was and thus needs to be regressed.
Now, as you can see in the numbers above, even using a true talent estimate of defense, which requires a lot more regression than an actual performance estimate, doesn’t budge the WAR all that much in most cases. So, using even less regression and ignoring other seasons (although technically, even for performance regression you might want to use a true talent estimate to help with the regression), the WAR numbers are not going to budge very much and they are certainly not going to change dramatically like for a player like Parra whose seasonal UZR is an anomaly (and thus his true talent estimate will be completely different).
For example, Kiermaier’s +30 might be regressed to +25 or +22 in order to estimate actual performance, where his true talent might be estimated at +15 (that is about as high as you can ever project a player at a premium position, although true talent estimates can be a little higher than projections because of the uncertainty of the future).
Just to end this already too long comment, estimating true talent is taking that performance estimate and essentially assuming that part of any good or bad actual performance was in fact some kind of “luck” which is always true on the average of course, according to the true score theorem.
But again, I don’t think that is what the author was trying to do. I think he was really trying to take the given UZR and turn that into a real “performance” estimate (again, what you see is a biased estimate or sample of a performance estimate, an estimate of an estimate if you will). Using a true talent estimate and then combining it with an offensive performance estimate just makes no sense. It doesn’t mean anything…
MGL, thanks for posting this here. I read through the post on Tango’s blog where you, Tango and Brian Cartwright go through a lot on this, and your long comment is a good summary on the Bayesian issue in scoring the existing defensive metrics.
I think part of what’s confusing is the use of regression as a means of improving an estimate of what has actually happened. If you stop to think about it, we could say something similar about wOBA, since it’s also based upon run values of different events that need to be estimated from prior raw statistics. The only difference is that the raw material for wOBA comes from well-defined metrics, while for UZR etc. the raw material itself comes from evolving metrics that contain measurement error themselves. wOBA is much more stable, but it still is technically “computed offense”.
So I wouldn’t say that the reported WAR is mixing apples and oranges. More like mixing organic and highly-processed cookies.
So I’d stop short of saying that combining
(ignore that last sentence fragment)
Good job August! I really enjoyed this. I think that fluky single season changes in defense have a big impact on how we rate a player’s performance.
The impact of positional adjustments and their uncertainty dwarfs that of fielding.
One may argue that the numbers are what they are in terms of performance, and high or low, offense or defense, simply reflect what a player did as opposed to their true talent level. One can say that anyone with 300 PA or less than 150 IP are SSS and also did not reflect a players true talent level, fielding is no different and is usually a relatively small part of a players overall WAR outside the extremes
Position adjustments on the other hand are just sorry ass adjustments that introduce more error, an error that can’t even be estimated since it was arrived at with very nebulous assumptions and is impossible to validate except in the most crudest level for the population as a whole. A players position is what it is. The team decides. Every position must be filled. Players should not be penalized or credited for what is basically a managers or organizations decision. At the very least these numbers should be regressed 50%
“Players should not be penalized or credited for what is basically a managers or organizations decision.”
You don’t get penalized or credit depending on where a manager or team puts you. That is the whole point of the positional adjustments. If you have the talent to play SS, you are a very valuable player relative to someone who can’t, simply because the pool or players that can play SS is much smaller than those who can play the OF. So if a team or manager does not recognize how good you are at SS or for whatever reason puts you at 3B, your UZR (or DRS, or whatever) will be a lot higher, automatically, because those are always relative stats (to that position) and you are being compared to a less talented group of players. So your UZR at 1B or the OF might be +10 whereas at SS it will be around zero (if you are an average SS). So you are not being penalized for being put at a position that is “beneath” you. You suffer a positional penalty, compared to SS, but your elevated UZR will exactly offset that. You go back to SS and now all of a sudden you have a zero UZR. Did you get worse as a defensive player? Of course not. But your UZR is now 5 or 10 runs worse (because your fielding is now being compared to the best defenders in baseball). How do we reconcile that? with positional adjustments. Are they perfect? Of course not. Nothing is in sabermetrics or on science for that matter. Nothing. You’ve probably heard some version of the expression “Perfection is the enemy of (good).” The positional adjustment is exactly what we need to keep a player from being rewarded or penalized as he plays different positions. His UZR will fluctuate from position to position even if his performance/talent stays the same. That is the whole point of the positional adjustment. Do we need it when comparing players at the same position? No of course not. Does it hurt? No, everyone at that position gets the same adjustment, so it doesn’t matter if we call one player +10 runs and another +5 or we call the first player +20 and the second +15. But if we wasn’t to compare one player to another at a different position we absolutely need to have a positional adjustment otherwise a player will get penalized whenever he plays a more premium position. If we compare to himself at a different position they will come unequal which obviously cannot be the case.
All that being said, you clearly have little understanding of the concept of positional adjustments and of value in baseball in general. Troll I presume. Maybe not if a troll must know he is a troll…
Influence of the position of the tone and suspense Elves Fielding.
We can say that this figure is what we are about performance and high or low, attack or defense, only to point out how the players don’t like the level of their skills really are. One thing I can say to anyone SO 300 or less than 150 LP-S and do not reflect the actual skill level, Fielding is no different, and often a relatively small fraction of players during the war outside pole
the other side is the location of the cry Ass just tone melody met a lot of errors, errors that are in the list, the comments, because it is impossible to verify, and funny, but the lowest level in the general population. This is the position of the player. It’s his call. Each position must be filled in. Should players are kacnjen or credit for what is essentially a management or decision making. At least, these numbers will fall 50%
The dwarves became elves!