Mariners Get Depth, Blue Jays Get Better
There’s a current story, that Ken Rosenthal has reported and written about. Bryce Harper and the Nationals are butting heads, trying to figure out the specifics of Harper’s arbitration eligibility. At stake are several millions of dollars, now and down the road, and it seems like a situation that could cause there to be bitterness between the player and the team. But, probably, the business side will be separated from the baseball side, and they’ll go on to get along fine. People thought there might be an issue with Mike Trout, too, when the Angels renewed his contract that one time near the league minimum. It seemed like the wrong thing to do to a superstar, and then later on Trout signed maybe the most team-friendly contract extension ever. Sometimes there are feelings, and often those feelings pass.
And then, sometimes, they don’t. At the end of the year, Mariners officials made some pointed remarks about Michael Saunders‘ preparedness and durability. They were unusually specific, and they hadn’t bothered to talk to Saunders first, and so Saunders’ side shot back. There was a rift, and while there was a chance things could be patched over, it seemed likely that the Mariners would send Saunders away so he could try to thrive somewhere else. Jerry Crasnick had reported that Saunders was being shopped at the GM meetings, and, at last, Saunders has been traded, from a team that didn’t value him to a team that could badly use him.
Leaving Seattle is Michael Saunders, as he heads to Toronto. Leaving Toronto is J.A. Happ, as he heads to Seattle. It’s a straight-up trade, that addresses a need on each side. The Mariners, for their part, wanted to add some depth to the starting rotation. And the Blue Jays, meanwhile, were looking to add a second-tier outfield sort. The Blue Jays, now, are that much closer to being finished. The Mariners, meanwhile, are now in pursuit of an outfielder. So they effectively moved a hole from one place to another.
For the Mariners, it’s a downgrade. For the Blue Jays, it’s as good a trade as a trade like this can be. For every team in the market for an affordable corner outfielder, I’ve been recommending Michael Saunders. He would’ve also been an obvious fit in Texas. But it’s Toronto that gets to take advantage of the Mariners’ feelings, and while Happ certainly served a purpose where he was, the Jays are less likely to miss Happ than the Mariners are to wish this hadn’t happened.
To be clear: Saunders absolutely has had some injury issues. He hasn’t proven himself to be durable, and if he had, he’d still be a Mariner. Last year he played the equivalent of half a season, down from a career-high 139 games in 2012. But for one thing, Saunders was more valuable in his partial season than Happ was in his full season. And for another, it can be hard to distinguish between fragility and bad luck. Nelson Cruz was fragile until he became durable. A year ago we were talking about Jacoby Ellsbury’s injury-proneness, and then he played in 149 games. The Mariners know some things about Saunders other teams don’t, but if you want to think about it mathematically, injury-proneness seems like the sort of skill that would take an awful long time to stabilize. Saunders is young, and if there were issues with his work ethic, say, that’s the kind of thing that can change.
Saunders is a fine defender in a corner. Over the last three years, he’s posted a 109 wRC+, and last year he came in at 126. Again, over three years, on a per-600-PA basis Saunders has averaged 2.5 WAR. That’s tied with Melky Cabrera and it’s just above Michael Cuddyer and one Nelson Cruz. He has a long swing that can make him vulnerable, especially against lefties, but he also has power potential that exceeds what he’s put up on his player page. The Blue Jays aren’t getting a star. That ship has presumably sailed. But Saunders is average or a little better, and he’s under control two more years. This year he’s projected to make $2.9 million.
And Happ is projected to make $6.7 million. That’s $6.7 million in Happ’s last year of team control. Statistically, Happ is a little worse than Saunders. He’s older than Saunders, he’s more expensive than Saunders, and he’s under control for less time than Saunders. In almost every way, the Mariners draw the short straw.
The last time Happ posted a double-digit FIP- was 2008, when he appeared in eight games. His career ERA- is 106, his career FIP- is 109, and his career xFIP- is also 109. There is no breakthrough potential, and Happ appears to be a pretty reliable No. 4, who can sometimes look like a No. 5 or worse. Easily the most interesting thing about Happ is what’s happened with his average fastball velocity. Used to be he’d top out around 89 – 90. Now look at this table, which shows Happ’s year-to-year percentile rank among starting pitchers in average fastball:
| Year | FA mph, percentile |
|---|---|
| 2008 | 28% |
| 2009 | 38% |
| 2010 | 38% |
| 2011 | 40% |
| 2012 | 44% |
| 2013 | 53% |
| 2014 | 80% |
Somehow, Happ has climbed into the upper fifth of all starters, after beginning in the lower third. It’s definitely encouraging, and backs up Happ’s better performance last season. He responded by throwing more fastballs instead of secondary stuff, and that caused an increased strike rate and a decreased walk rate. Happ became more of a control pitcher, staying more often in and around the zone.
But still, Happ was worth 1.3 WAR. By runs allowed instead, it was 1.5 WAR. His xFIP was a little better than his FIP and his ERA, but it remained a bit below average, and Happ is 32. The velocity shows he’s not in decline, but he hasn’t achieved an incredible peak.
Seattle’s a good place for him. Happ trends toward fly balls, and as a southpaw, he’ll end up seeing a lot of right-handed batters who hit in Safeco with a disadvantage. The Mariners have gone through this with guys like Jason Vargas, Jarrod Washburn, and to some extent Roenis Elias. Tony Blengino has written here about how Safeco still plays like murder against many righties, so that’ll give Happ a boost. Definitely, he fits the environment, and definitely, the Mariners needed to add some starting-rotation depth.
It’s just, you wonder about alternatives. It’s possible the Mariners could’ve just re-signed Chris Young, who benefited from the park. That would’ve allowed them to keep Saunders. But they wound up determined to deal Saunders away, and what they got was a worse player due more money over less time. There are legitimate questions about Saunders, questions other teams might also share, but there’s no way to see this as anything other than selling low.
It might not be a coincidence that the Saunders story broke almost simultaneous to Nick Markakis signing for four years with the Braves. The Braves now have a new right fielder. The Mariners seek a right fielder, and they’ve been deeply interested in Justin Upton. The Mariners aren’t the only team that likes Upton, and the Braves might not be able to pry Taijuan Walker away, but that would be a pretty unsurprising next step. It would only further focus the Mariners’ window on 2015, and now Walker is a little more expendable with an extra starting pitcher on the club.
The Mariners were going to deal Michael Saunders, so they dealt Michael Saunders for something they can use. The Blue Jays were going to find another outfielder, so they took Michael Saunders, giving away something they didn’t need. It isn’t a trade that totally changes the dynamic of anything, but for Toronto, it’s a good little move that further supports a division contender. For Seattle, now they get to search for something to fill a hole they just themselves created.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Upton to Mariners is too obvious. Never works out that way.
this does seem like a trade that sets up a paxton or walker trade for Upton or another top flight OF. I could also see a walk for Cespedes and Owens.
I hope its really obvious. My Mariners need this! Mariners should give up Walker for Upton straight up, but its never going to be like that either.
As a fan of your Mariners, I implore you not to make such a dreadful decision.
NO.
Take B.J. Upton’s contract and keep Walker.
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Highlight and Google: John Powers Middleton Felony Fraud
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Mariners gonna Mariner. The worst thing that ever happened was last year’s success saving Jack Z’s job.
This is where the truth is found, in this person’s words.
One day it’ll happen…….one day
– A Dodger fan
It’s much more than a “good little move” for Toronto. Instead of paying Markasis or Melky for 4-5 years they get what should be the same production for $8-10M less per year.
And get flexibility in two years instead of four!
Agreed. This is a terrific deal for the Jays. The argument that ‘Saunders is always injured’ is simply crap. Michael Saunders has always hit very well at Rogers, while hitting at Safeco field always suppressed his output. He’s a fine defender, good base stealer, good baserunner, and no teammate ever had a problem with him. He’s vastly cheaper than the guy—Melky—he’s replacing, and much better than Markkakis. I hope Michael Saunders haunts the Mariners for the rest of his career, and I can’t think of a player who is better suited or now positioned to do so.
As to what next for the Mariners, I suspect that it’s Roenis Elias who is traded, not Taijuan Walker. Of the five guys projected to start for the Mariners in the rotation, he was the lowest man on the pole, has the least track record, and is not necessarily young either, though I like him. Five years of control which is a very attractive feature in a trade. The problem with moving him was that a replacement would have to be found on the open market, probably a left-handed pitcher. Look no more: A. J. Happ has happened on the scene.
I could see Elias to Atlanta for one year of Upton. Not wild about it, but frankly it helps both teams. I’d far rather see five years of Elias for Five years of Stephen Souza, Jr., but I see nothing that leads me to believe that Jack Zd is that smart, that creative, or willing to take that level of prospect risk on board any more. The Mariners owners are all about putting Famous Starzz on the little digital screen to boost ratings, so it figures to be Upton. He could be QOed too if gotten now, so there’s some net return when and as he walks.
Don’t love it, but this would all make a certain kind of sense. . . . Far rather they’d dealt Ackley for Happ. Dustin is a decent player with some upside left, but he has never been, nor will ever be, as good a player as Michael Saunders.
Only way i can see Elias as enough for Upton is if they take Bj and Justin. And at that point it is more about eating Upton’s contract. Walker sounds about right considering Heyward went for Shelby Miller, another former blue chip SP prospect with a decent track record in the bigs (and about the same amount of success and red flags)
I don’t understand how Elias’ contract works, but if he has a few years of team control, that could actually be a fair deal. Upton doesn’t have unlimited value for the one year. He should be worth around $10 million more than he’ll get paid. Elias was worth about that last year but only cost $500k.
So James, you’re _way_ overvaluing what one year of a guy gets you back. This isn’t about how good Upton putatively is, but about how long you get to use that good and for what. Take a look at what one-and-stretch-run got back for Price—far more valuable than Upton major—and what all came back for Heyward. The get just isn’t that high unless the other GM is a damned fool.
Incidentally, five years of a youngish and inexpensive left-handed starting pitcher is not a bad get for any player moved.
Walker is a v-a-s-t overpay for anybody in Atlanta Braves control, it’s really tiresome to hear this again and again. Not that those deals don’t happen. Not that long ago, the Braves dealt for J. D. Drew to help them do a playoff sprint for one year before he went on the market as a free agent. Drew played very well, and the Braves got value out of it. You likely remember who went the other way: Adam Wainwright, as a prospect. Who spent all of his control years becoming one of the very best pitchers in the NL, and indeed in baseball. Walker is at least as good a prospect now as Wainwright was then; I would say slightly better. Now: Do you think that is REALLY the price that should be paid for Upton, who has never really been as good as Drew was, and isn’t close to Drew defensively? Not a chance.
Balthazar, I couldn’t agree more with your words. I have been shouting from the rooftops that a deal for Souza would be a terrific move. I would offer Chris Taylor as The Nads need a middle infielder to play 2B. Plus, with Desmond about to get very expensive, they could switch him to SS in short order if need be.
I could definitely live with Taylor for Souza. I think the best deal would have been Ackley for Souza actually, with Dustin moving to 2B. He’s a good defender there, has some real power, and some remaining upside offensively if when and as he avoids long stretches of ineffectiveness at the plate. Ackley has fewer years of control but a more proven record of actually getting hot against major league pitching.
But Mariners gotta Mariner as the dude above said . . . all too true. This isn’t all necessarily about Jack Zd, though, those in ownership in Seattle have an idee fixe about putting famous home-run hitters in front of the fans to boost attendance and ratings rather than putting wins on the board to do the same far more.
To be fair, almost everybody hits very well at Rodgers, and everybody has their output suppressed at Safeco. Any batter moving to the former from the latter will look like they took a step forward. But, like Morrow before him, Saunders had no future for reasons that existed entirely in the minds of the M’s front office, and like Morrow before him he will find a fresh start in Toronto.
Understood. Rogers is a good place to hit. My point was that getting away from Safeco which has routinely suppressed his perceived value, Michael Saunders is very likely going to have the counting stats to match his actual value.
It is my personal view, nothing but supposition, that the Mariners wanted Michael Saunders to hit more HRs; the team is fixated on that and that only, especially from the outfield. Michael isn’t suited to pulling inside pitching due to his long arms and size, and has had to work damn hard to perfect his present swing where he turns on stuff over the plate, but more tends to defend the plate away and inside. I’m betting the team approached him last year about changing his swing, and he declined to do so. After that, ‘Michael Saunders doesn’t have what it takes’ was in internal code on him.
The crap about Michael being fragile is just bogus: McClendon was already doing his best to replace Saunders in Spring Training before any of Michael’s physical mishaps this year. Lloyd’s actual quote on Michael was that ‘he needed to spend more time in the weight room’—but with not mention that this was needed to avoid injury. Saunders would top out in the low 20s on HRs in a good, full season, and it is my view the team felt that wasn’t enough, and that he ‘wouldn’t do what it takes’ to produce more. Idiots.
To be fair, almost everybody hits very well at Rodgers, and everybody has their output suppressed at Safeco. Any batter moving to the former from the latter will look like they took a step forward. But, like Morrow before him, Saunders had no future for reasons that exist entirely in the minds of the M’s front office, and like Morrow before him he will find a fresh start in Toronto.
Really liking Toronto’s moves this off-season. If they add another decent pitcher and avoid having a black hole at 2nd and either LF or CF, depending on where Saunders plays, then they will have a good chance of finally making the playoffs after almost 2 decades…
Probably Saunders in LF, Pompey in CF.
It’s been more than 2 decades.
One would think so. But Canadian decades are in meters instead of yards, so about 10% longer.
It’s not metric, it’s the exchange rate on the loonie that messes up the calculation
It’s actually “metres” not “meters” up here.
I think right now Dickey, Buehrle, Stroman, Hutchison is a solid 1-4. Aaron Sanchez or Daniel Norris could easily step in as the #5 fine, and then they really just need a 2Bman. This is the one area where trading Lawrie hurts because they don’t have the flexibility of acquiring either a 3B or 2B. If I’m AA my offseason wish list from here on out is a serviceable second baseman, and that’s it. Just let it ride with Pompey and that back three and be done. They brought back Smoak and could bring back Dirks potentially too as outfield insurance. The Melky ship has sailed IMO. Bring in a 2B – Weeks? – and call it a day.
If I’m Toronto, I think I wait to see what Asdrubal Cabrera or Lowrie are looking for before I roll the dice on a guy like Weeks. If Cabrera can be league average or better at 2B (which shouldn’t be too hard for him) then he’s obviously the best possible FA option.
I’d look at Everth before Asdrubal if I’m AA.
The horrible bullpen isnt an issue ?
“Solid” is probably a stretch. I think its more likely to be a below avg rotation. Even with Happ Steamer projected the Jays starting five to put up a 9.4 WAR. Even assuming one of the kids steps in and replaces Happ’s value that still puts them in the bottom third of the league.
I dont know if its a interesting number or meaningless stat, but only 3 teams have made the playoffs the past 5 years with a starting rotation putting up less then a 10 WAR (Baltimore in 2014, 2012 and Rays in 2010)
I say bring in Callaspo – he can play both 3B and 2B, he’s cheap, and he’s always been a guy who walks a lot. It’s true that he’s coming off of a bad year, but this can work both ways. It means he’s cheap and will sign for a one-year deal. There’s no reason to believe that he’ll repeat a .242 BABIP. He’s versatile, not injury prone, and could very easily be a 1.5 WAR player, although Steamer projects more like 1 WAR. I say AA should go for him. Cheaper than Asdrubal and fairly similar upside as far as production is concerned.
So many free agent options out there that could have worked just as well and allows them to keep Saunders as a fourth OF – Capuano, Vogelsong, Morrow, Chris Young.
On the other hand, the team had to have approached other GMs and this was apparently the best offer they got, which tells you something about how other GMs view Saunders as well.
The Mariners probably didn’t do themselves any favors by unfurling a huge banner that read “Unreliable outfielder for sale.”
I really thought Jack knew better.
Between Saunders and Donaldson, the Blue Jays seem to be doing a good job poaching players from teams that are just fed up with them. How can you write that intro without mentioning the Beane/Donaldson rumor, anyways?
Didn’t they do the same thing with Rasmus and the SS from ATL?
That was Yunel Escobar, but he played his way out of Toronto, as well.
As a Jays fan, I’m not sure that’s an endorsement.
Y Escobar had a good year then a bad one and then got in trouble for a slur and got dumped in the Reyes deal.
Rasmus had a good year sandwiched with some bad ones and ended up on the bench.
Morrow had one good partial season sandwiched in the middle of a bunch of underwhelming and constantly injured ones, before getting bought out.
Brad Lincoln did nothing.
The Jays’ MO for a while has been to find discounted first-round talents who are out of favour with their current organizations for various reasons, but for the most part it’s been a failure.
I’d hardly call those acquisitions failures. EE, Bautista are two buy-lows as well that have worked out brilliantly and they might not get Reyes/Buehrle without Yunel going the other way. Rasmus had a really good 2013, so that helped..
I think you also have to consider what Toronto gave up to get those players.
The Escobar trade which you view as a failure…
Gonzalez produced 1.3 WAR for the Braves in 2010-2011.
Escobar produced 4.6 WAR for the Jays. That’s value added.
It wasn’t the steal of the century…but it is was a clear win for the Jays.
We’ve seen the Blue Jays make a series of strong moves before (two years ago?). They then went on to have a terrible year.
I guess you just never know.
At some point you gotta figure it’ll work out like gangbusters for them.
I mean, they got a guy who’s better than Markakis, for a lot less money, and only had to fork over J.A. Happ.
i felt like they gave up more and acquired much more salary back in the Marlins and Mets deals of two years ago. There was excitement over the talent acquired, but there was also the trepidation over the mountain of contract commitments and prospect capital given up. The moves this offseason seem much less risky. Donaldson is quite cheap, and Martin’s skillset should age well.
That was mainly due to injuries, Reyes, Melky, Lawrie, Bautista, Rasmus were all injured, along with Johnson
Except they’ve still got all of those players as well and this time around they’d supplemented that existing core with more good/great players and a mini youth infusion.
How dumb is this? So because they made strong moves 2 years ago that means they should stop? I don’t get this argument “it didn’t work in 2012”!! So? That means they should stop trying to win? So dumb.
You’re putting words into his mouth. He never said they should stop trying to win. He said “I guess you just never know”, meaning that just because a team wins the off-season it doesn’t mean they’ll have a great year. There are many examples of teams that made seemingly strong moves in the off-season only to put up a disappointing season.
I like all of the moves the Jays made this off-season, and I’d think they have a very strong chance at winning the division, but as bookbook said “you just never know”.
An Ackley for Upton trade could work, no?
Braves have a need at 2B and the OF, especially if they deal J. Upton.
Ackley for Upton straight up? I think it will take a bit more than that to get the Braves to part with Upton.
Considering what they got for Heyward, they could probably be convinced to take Montero straight up for Upton. Which would free the Braves up to dump Gattis for 50 cents on the dollar.
Nobody wants Montero. He is a DH.
@ Ben I think he was trying to say the Braves haven’t been getting good value for their trades lately and suggesting Montero sarcastically.
I believe the plan in ATL is to move Peraza, a top prospect of theirs, across the diamond to 2B, since Andrelton Simmons exists.
Ackley for Upton has always made a bunch of sense, and I was rather hoping it would happen, yeah. As an OFer, it looks a little light. But Ackley is a find 2Bman, and his bat right now profiles very nicely there. Yes, that absolutely would be worth one year left of Upton for Atlanta. Wouldn’t bother me at all if it happens, unlike losing Michael Saunders.
The fact is, one year of even a good player just doesn’t net you back that much in a deal since you are almost certainly going to lose the guy to free agency. If Atlanta was in contention, of course, no way to they move Justin Upton. Obviously they are not, as all trade partners can see, so Hart’s ability to talk up Upton’s price is very limited. He got back one mostly busted pitcher and a good prospect for Heyward, in many ways a better all-around player. Think about that in pricing the get for Upton.
Getting Ackley for Upton would be great for the Braves. And ironic in a way, since Ackley seems like the perfect fit for Martin Prado’s old role with the Braves.
I don’t see why the M’s would deal a corner outfielder to fill the hole at corner outfield. Also Ackley on his current deal is worth more than Upton on his. If Ackley is a 2 win player (like last year) for his next three Arbitration years he will probably have more than $10 million in excess value. No.
Brad Miller for Justin Upton, with ATL adding a small +.
I’m on board. I’ll even kick in Yoervis Medina to sweeten the pot.
Can the Braves trade Markakis to the Mariners? For a glazed doughnut earning $1M this year.
Please???!!!!
Smoak is already on the Jays
Not until June 15
Oh for effs sake. Someone should sign Horacio Ramirez and see what the M’s will give up for him THIS time.
*Ow-ow-ow* I still remember that one. Don’t do that to me. And yes, the Mariners dumped Soriano stupidly and out of pique as well. Michael Saunders will likely be playing in the Big Leagues for another decade in my view, with some occasionally very good seasons along the way, just like Rafe.
Saunders is 28 and can’t stay on the field. He doesn’t strike me as the type of guy that will be going strong at 38.
This is basically where the Mariners FO pay the price for what they said about Saunders. They could have easily went out an signed someone cheaply for what Happ projected to provide, and then they wouldn’t have created their own hole. Or they could have still went out and got a RF still and had Saunders as a 4th OF. Or traded him for something they couldn’t get on the open market. But the comments made about Saunders created a situation where he needed to be traded and simultaneously killed his trade value. Perhaps he could at least contributed value by being sent to the Braves or whoever they eventually trade with to obtain an OF.
Now teams know the M’s need a RF, and have their eyes dead set on Walker, hoping to get a GM in desperate win-now mode to give up a strong value in exchange for lesser, but more immediate RF value. Man, and I was just starting to like what the Mariners had going on…
You’re going to like what they have going on for 2015. And then avert your eyes because things are going to get ugly in a hurry.
If the Mariners trade Walker you can bet his shoulder is the reason, just like Pineda
Walker being sent home early from the AFL made me raise my eyebrows a little.
Oh really?
In that case, scratch what I wrote above. Trade Walker and his blown out shoulder for Justin Upton.
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Highlight and Google: John Powers Middleton Felony Fraud
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“So they effectively moved a hole from one place to another.”
I found this sentence very funny for some reason.
It’s even funnier if you think about it in an erotic way.
I wonder if ATL would prefer Paxton to Walker, given Walker’s balky shoulder last season.
I think that would be very possible. Left-handed starters who average almost 95 mph on their fastballs and 1.7 WAR in 98 IP with a 55.8 GB% under his belt don’t come around too often.
I’ve seen Paxton pitch and I would not trade him for Upton. Paxton is very close to becoming a true Ace level starter.
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Highlight and Google: John Powers Middleton Felony Fraud
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Paxton IS an ace. I say that having watched his minor league career progress, him refine his mechanics, and having watched most of his major league starts. The thing is, Taijuan Walker is very nearly as good, and much younger. Walker is NOT being moved, and certainly not for a rental. But you may very shortly see Roenis Elias in a Braves uniform. He’s quite a talented pitcher and a good competitor, so if you get him be nice to him.
If a player is a clown such that he’s hurting the squad in that way, Step #1 is to sit him down and talk about it. If that doesn’t help, Step #2 is to tell his agent and see if he can light a fire under him. If that doesn’t help, yeah, Step #3 is to blast him to the press. They basically know all about the Clown Player already, but now they can cite an official source. When that doesn’t help either, Step #4 is to jettison him for whatever you can get.
Yes, Step #3 reduces your return from Step #4. Only alternative is to give up on a talented player a Step early. Once things reach Step #2 anyways, I kinda wonder if scouts have already caught on. Which then greatly reduces the cost of a failed Step #3. Only thing taking place there is the public learning what everybody in baseball actually already knows.
Step #1. Be Lebron James.
Step #2. Profit.
Step #3. Repeat Step #2 as often as necessary.
So does this mean the Blue Jays have likely moved on from Melky Cabrera? What will their LF look like next year?
It’ll look exactly like Michael Saunders.
Apologies to Simon & Garfunkel. For mourning M’s fans everywhere, please rise and doff your cap.
I’d rather be a blue jay than an M
Yes I would
If I could, I surely would
I’d rather work for Alex than for Jack
Yes I would
if i only could, i *surely* would
Away, I’d rather swing away
Like Edwin and with Jose
A man, who covers so much ground
He will be missed in Puget Sound, in Puget Sound
I’d rather hit in Skydome than the Safe
Yes I would
If I could, I surely would
I’d rather play at home than in the states,
Yes I would
If I could, I surely would
Seriously Michael, hope you kill it this year, including against the M’s every time you play us. This is one of Jack’s worst moves, like a Bavasi trade. I was annoyed by the Cruz signing (especially since a way better deal for him was in place last year only to be shot down by someone above Jack) but thought he would be at least ok as an overpaid DH for a couple years, but now I’ve got a queasy, sinking feeling that I know the M’s WILL let me down and will play Cruz in the OF. Yikes. Blengino/Cameron can you pull off a coup? I’ll supply the rabble and the pitchforks.
It looks like Jed Lowrie would be a nice fit for Toronto at 2B, and as insurance against injury to Reyes at SS.
I think you’re all missing the main reason this trade happened. Jays traded Lawrie (from Langley, BC) and needed a replacement Canadian so they acquired Saunders (from Victoria, BC). I think the Mariners could have received even more if they only knew the truth! Gotta fill that Canadian quota!
Go Jays!
The Mariners are betting that second-half 3.65 xFIP Happ is the real Happ. This is a Buy High deal for Happ and a Sell Low deal for Saunders. And it’s that way for Saunders in large part due to the front office’s own big fat mouths. This is pretty much what’s been rumored about Jack Z’s handling of things. Another unforced error brought on by a lack of sensitivity to how people are going to respond to your actions.
Saunders just put up what was basically his career year from a rate state perspective. Even with him potentially being devalued by the conflict between him and the team, which is debatable, they’re still probably moving him at a time when his value is at the highest it’s been since his prospect days.
id say Marlon Byrd ends up a Mariner if they dont want to give up Walker for Upton.
This is a lot of hullabaloo for two role players. These are both high variance, mid-to-low value guys, which makes it tough to declare either team a “winner” or a “loser,” particularly before we’ve seen how they fare in their new environments. Saunders is just as likely to log 70 games as he is to play a relatively full season. 2014 was his career year to date. BABIP was a bit above his career numbers. I would be absolutely shocked if he continued to post .340+ wOBAs, even outside of Safeco. Happ, in Safeco field’s friendly confines can probably post a FIP in the mid-to-high 3s. His Steamer projection in a neutral environment is 4.11. It wouldn’t surprise me if both of these guys produce roughly the same WAR from this point on, though Happ will get paid more to do so.
The title of this article is “Mariners Get Depth, Blue Jays Get Better” but I wouldn’t have been surprised to see it written as “Mariners Get Depth, Blue Jays Continue to Get Better”…I’m really impressed with AA’s moves so far this winter:
(1) Adds Russell Martin at C;
(2) Adds Josh Donaldson at 3B;
(3) Adds Michael Saunders in the OF.
That is a significant push forward I think when all you’re subtracting from the major league team is Lawrie and Happ, in all likelihood, although I suppose Graveman and Nolin were potential 2015 bullpen pieces for the Jays.
The Blue Jays and Red Sox would seem to be favorites in the AL East although admittedly these offseason “wins” don’t always translate in the regular season (see Red Sox 2010-2011 offseason and Jays 2012-2013 offseason).
This is a buyer’s market for pitching, and a sellers market for outfielders. The M’s gave up the latter for a crappy pitcher. Jack Z idiocy strikes again!
But is Saunders really any better than Colby Rasmus? Hitting wise they seem equal, low AVG power types. I guess the only difference is defence.
He doesn’t come with daddy issues at least.
When you say defence is the difference, who is better? It’s not a simple comparison because Saunders is not considered a true CF despite playing there from time to time. I don’t see Rasmus as a superior fielder anyway. As with his other skills Colby seemed to want to save room for dessert. He refused to go to the wall to make catches. I don’t mean running into it, he just stopped very short on way too many catchable balls that other OF on his own team and with less talent either caught or made contact on. His reads on fly balls were inconsistent within the same inning.
I haven’t seen Saunders enough but other observers and stats have him as above average as a LF.
I’ll take a flyer on Saunders next 2-4 seasons over Rasmus in a flash. It’ll cost less whether I’m right or wrong.
I believe that Jeff has a man crush on Saunders.
The Mariners have mastered the art of filling holes in one place by creating holes elsewhere while planning a big trade to fill the new hole. The problem is doing this destroys their leverage in that big trade because now they need to acquire the player that much more or they’ll have a big gaping hole. Why do you have to deal Saunders before you acquire Upton or Kemp or whatever other remarkably stupid thing you are planning to do here?