Maybe Travis Shaw Is Just Better Than Pablo Sandoval
Perhaps you already thought it inevitable, but now it’s official: Out of the gate, Travis Shaw will be starting for the Red Sox at third base, over Pablo Sandoval. Through the end of his contract, Sandoval is owed more than seventy-five million dollars. Shaw, meanwhile, is owed an amount of money you could actually imagine in your own bank account. This is surprising, because of the commitment the Red Sox made to Sandoval the previous offseason. But this is not surprising, because Sandoval was a disaster. Hanley Ramirez might’ve been a more conspicuous disaster, but Sandoval managed to beat him, ever so slightly, in negative WAR.
There are just a few things that have to be said in response to the news. The first, which is critical, is this is non-binding. I mean, Shaw will start on opening day, but beyond that, no one’s really said anything. It stands to reason Sandoval is going to play; he’s not going to be a full-year pinch-hitter. It is legitimately unusual for a team to rule against its own financial commitments, at least this soon. And then — well, this decision was probably easy. This is the right time to give Shaw his chance. He might just be a better baseball player than Sandoval is, and after back-to-back seasons of misery, the Red Sox are in the business of maximizing wins.
One of the things that makes this situation unusual is that career courses like Sandoval’s are unusual. Sandoval was a good enough player almost every season through 27. That’s what you want to see in a free agent, but of course, it all came crashing down at 28. Sandoval’s drop-off was historically significant, and there just aren’t that many comparisons. Sandoval’s in line to lose playing time after Year 1 with his new team. Melvin Upton came apart at 28, but then he was again allowed to play regularly. Chone Figgins lasted a year and a half in Seattle before he started to lose time. He was older than Sandoval. The Angels dumped Josh Hamilton after two of five years, and he, too, was older than Sandoval. Hamilton is an interesting case, not because he was ever as bad as Sandoval on the field, but because of how much money the Angels ate. There’s a small but real history of teams just cutting bait. Teams don’t always side with the money — you can also look at Aaron Hill, or you could look at the same Red Sox, with Rusney Castillo.
No team wants to be let down by the players getting paid the most money. That’s tough on owners, and it does introduce a variable, where teams will be more likely to try to squeeze what they can out of the big-money contracts. If you look at the Red Sox’s situation, though, there’s of course already been a front-office change, where the current man in charge isn’t responsible for Sandoval being on the books. So he doesn’t have any of his own loyalty there, and ownership is willing to give Dave Dombrowski the benefit of the doubt for the time being. More than anything, they want to win. Their situation sucks when the team sucks, and there’s no better time than now to give Shaw an opportunity.
Shaw was never a big prospect. He actually hit fairly poorly just last season in Triple-A, as notable players go. As for Sandoval, he achieved some measure of international celebrity, and it wasn’t that far back a few organizations thought him worth roughly nine figures. At first it doesn’t make great sense that Shaw might be the better baseball player, but is it strange, really? After what we all just saw, would it really be so insane to suggest that Shaw improves the odds of making the playoffs?
You don’t need to understand regression to the mean to understand that Sandoval is unlikely to be 2015-level bad again. He was arguably the worst regular player in baseball. He’s not going to be worth -2 WAR, but then, consider, over the past three years combined, he’s been worth +3.1 WAR. He comes out just a hair above 1 WAR per 600 plate appearances. Obviously that’s sunk by the season that was, but think about Sandoval’s skillset. He’s an excellent contact hitter, for sure. Yet he doesn’t have speed to beat out grounders. He doesn’t hit for all that much power. He’s a clear negative on the basepaths. And he’s been a below-average defender. Last year, he was an awful defender, and though he should be better than that, I don’t know anyone who’d think of him as a positive. He’s been hit-or-miss in spring. Sandoval just doesn’t have much working in his favor.
Shaw? Well, Shaw has mostly been a first baseman, but he’s not unfamiliar with being a third baseman, and the Red Sox specifically cited his defense as a major reason why this decision has been made. I don’t think we can assume Shaw is better than average, but he should be playable. On the bases, Shaw moves like a guy who’s mostly been a first baseman, but it’s unlikely he’s bad on Sandoval’s level. Which leaves us with the offense. What’s odd about Shaw is that, in the majors, he out-hit himself in Triple-A. But that’s what just happened, and Shaw’s also been productive enough in spring.
He’s not without his peers. Carlos Correa out-hit himself in Triple-A. So did Corey Seager. So did Mikie Mahtook and Adonis Garcia and Trayce Thompson. So did Francisco Lindor! What you should always care about most is major-league performance, and in the majors, Shaw showed power, and he showed roughly average contact skills. Over about 250 chances, Shaw ran a 117 wRC+. It’s not about believing whether that’s real. It’s about giving that a chance. Most recently, Shaw was good, and Sandoval was bad. If the Red Sox weren’t going to give Shaw a chance now, when would they? What would it take, and what message would this send? Shaw earned this. He mostly earned it last summer, but he’s only helped his case in March.
He’s not a lock, and the team knows that. Sandoval’s not pleased on the inside, and the team knows that. A helpful side effect could be that Sandoval will feel more motivated by this. He will have to perform in his more limited opportunities, and perhaps he responds well to that. But this is what circumstances called for. There’s a decent chance Shaw will just be another Will Middlebrooks. If he gets himself exploited in regular duty, then, the door’s open again. Then Sandoval could step forward. Yet if Shaw doesn’t struggle, I don’t think there’s anything to feel bad about. You can’t say Sandoval didn’t have his turn. He’ll get another turn if Shaw is exposed, and then no matter what Sandoval would do, at least people would know the backup isn’t the superior option.
I’ve never had to make any decisions involving tens of millions of dollars. I can’t imagine the Red Sox are thrilled, but, money is the only thing pulling in that direction. You keep Sandoval as the starter if you’re trying to get the most out of Pablo Sandoval. You give Shaw an opportunity if you’re trying to get the most out of the Red Sox. Seems like it should actually be a pretty easy call.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Looks like Boston will eat the money, now that that fat turd has eaten just about everything else.
Sandoval’s career are looks like Carlos Baerga. Baerga basically was a replacement level player after his age 26 season. Sometimes, for whatever reason, they just lose it. Although it seems inexplicable.
Good comp, I’d have to think Baerga is around a top 10 fit.
Lots of similarities, Baerga ran BB% as low as 3 during his peak years, generally had ISOs around .140 save the one-time peak over .200, low K-rate hitter with a BABIP regularly above .310. I don’t remember Baerga getting fat, but articles from the time explain that he pudged up enough to report to camp 30 pounds overweight by 1996. When he was traded and spoke out about it, the title of the ’96 Spokesmanreview article was ‘fat man zings.’
Post weight gain, his defense went from ok to abysmal, his BABIP fell apart never to recover, and his lack of walks therefore made his OBP unplayable.
At first I thought of Dmitri Young (who believe it or not began as a 3B), but other than the weight match I think Baerga nails it.
What a steaming toilet bowl of a roster.
The anti-projections Red Sox stuff is getting tired, because its so obtuse and doesn’t make detailed arguments.
Replacement level is 52 wins, so starting from that baseline-
So which one of these projections do you disagree with and why?
Price – 5.0
Betts – 4.4
Bogaerts – 3.2
Pedroia – 3.1
Bucholtz – 2.8
Bradley Jr – 2.2
Ortiz – 1.9
Kimbel – 1.7
Rodriguez – 1.6
Uehara – 1.1
Shaw – 1.1
Swihart – 1.0
Holt – 0.7
Hanigan – 0.7
Young – 0.7
Tazawa – 0.6
That’s 31.8 WAR. Let’s chop 0.8 off of those projections, take it from Price if you like. 52 + 31= 83.
It’s not hard to see why Boston is projected to be solid-to-good. The core listed above have very strong track records and would be valued roughly as they are above by most every team in the game. The mix of players left off, and the remaining roster spots, have a solid chance to produce a decent bit of additional WAR.
It’s certainly fair to have doubts about Ramirez, Kelly, Porcello, Sandoval, as well as the rest of the bottom of the roster, and let’s throw in Carson Smith in light of his injury. It’s becoming more difficult, however, to make the argument that Sandoval and Castillo will drag down the team, as they are not likely to play much. It’s fair to doubt whether Boston will also limit the damage that Ramirez, Kelly and Porcello are able to rack up if they struggle, but clearly the trend is strongly moving away from playing sunk-cost players simply due to their contract.
Boston nearly tops the MLB in both financial clout and minor league assets. While it’s fair to question whether these advantages will translate into a strong and deep group of supplemental players to fill out the rest of the roster and spare the team from poor performers, it’s extremely difficult to make the argument that the roster is garbage unless you only deal in obtuse generalities and don’t deal with specifics at all.
Fan biases are a fun part of the game, but the Boston roster has obvious strengths and obvious weaknesses, the ‘controversy’ is merely the difference between those making detailed arguments and those who can’t be bothered.
Team relacement level is 48 wins, not 52.
In 5 months in 2014, Ben Cherington acquired 6 players to whom the Sox committed $380 million. At this point, they are one starting position player (coming off a terrible season), two bottom-of-the-rotation pitchers (4-5 once ERod returns), two bench players, and a minor leaguer.
Is there really any question about how incompetent he was?
Well…it’s true that those 2014 moves haven’t really panned out. But if you’re going to saddle him with those, don’t you also have to credit him for the big moves that drove them to the 2013 World Series win?
Nobody can screw up that badly and be competent.
Porcello was a #2 starter when they acquired him and a #2 starter once he went back to using his sinker as his primary pitch. Now, I think you blame Cherington and his staff for the insane notion that he should use the 4-seamer in that role instead, but that’s not a player evaluation mistake.
It’s also way too soon to right off Kelley, who was hugely better after he changed his pitch mix as well.
Oh, and I like the way you snuck in outbidding the Yankees for Yoan Moncada as a mistake.
Cherington had a generally poor record as an MLB talent evaluator (even when you factor in 2013), and for implementaion of analytic insight at the MLB level (something that the organization has actually struggled with since 2006, when Jed Hoyer was promoted out of the role as analytics liaison to the manager). But he remained a tremendous judge of amateur and minor league talent. I don’t think it’s an accident that the only two players he traded for and won big-time were Rodriguez and Brock Holt.
And look at the amateur acquistions: Moncada, Rafael Devers, Anderson Espinoza, Andrew Benintendi, Javier Guerra, Sam Travis, Michael Kopech, Brian Johnson. In four years.
“One of the things that makes this situation unusual is that career courses like Sandoval’s are unusual”
A little while back this career course actually seemed to be the expected norm for jays players romero wells hill rios lind etc. were all consistently good, then suddenly useless in their late 20s.
And don’t forget the granddaddy of them all, Junior Felix.
Your use of the term “consistently good” is pretty generous there. The biggest knock against most of those players was a lack of consistency.
And Adam Lind is probably better in his late 20’s then he ever has been.
a lot of things already going wrong for the Sox. Sandoval and Castillo continuing to suck, Carson Smith hurt, Eduardo Rodriguez hurt…
Um, I think we need to separate “things going wrong”, from terrible roster moves turning out to be terrible roster moves.
Smith and Rodriguez were both universally praised as far as roster moves go. In fact, Miller for Rodriguez is basically considered to be the second-best trade of Cherrington’s tenure, behind the huge Dodgers salary dump of 2012. Smith was considered quite a coup for Dombrowski, even accounting for the injury concerns associated with his delivery. So basically, good roster moves led to good players with even higher ceilings… who are now injured. Things going wrong.
But as for Castillo and Sandoval… yeah. No arguments.
I think he was referring to Sandoval and Casillo, which obviously se like big time overpays.
The Erod trade was obviously a steal. IMO it’s up there with the Russell and Swanson trades. Erod wasn’t quite on that level in terms of prospect status (was considered top 25-50 buy not top 10) however 2 months of Miller isn’t worth a fraction of 3yrs of Miller or 1.5 years of Samardjzia.
To be fair Castillo has had less then 300 PA’s. Its a little premature to just totally write him off.
a 26yr old with uninspiring stuff, an ugly delivery, and one good year on his resume is not exactly a low risk get.
Lol, yea the kind of uninspiring stuff that results in a 32% K rate and 65% GB rate. You are on crack.
Lol, please man, just stop, like what do you get out of this? You just sound like a fool trying to bash Redsox players.
“Uninspiring stuff” ummm he was one of the best sliders in baseball to go along with a nasty sinker. You realize velocity doesn’t equal great stuff right? He had the highest k and gb rate of any reliever not named Britton.
“He’s 26” and your point??? A 25 year old rookie reliever isn’t exactly old.. Betances wasn’t good until he was 26. Smith broke out at 25.
“One good year on resume”. Carson smith was the fifth most valuable reliever last season. His service time is the same as Ken Giles, who Judy’s go traded for 2 top 100 prospects
Just got trade for 2 top 100 prospects *.
@Damaso
Doubts about any reliever can usually be justified, but Smith is projected for 0.6 WAR. Your description of Smith is spot on except that, as said, stuff isn’t just pure velocity- Smith has shown quality stuff.
I think some of your early critiques of the Boston projections were pretty detailed and offered good discussion, but with Sandoval and Castillo demoted before opening day, don’t you agree that it is harder to dismiss Boston based on their Porcello, Sandoval, Castillo, Kelly, Ramirez group? While 3 of those players are still in line for plenty of playing time, doesn’t it now appear likely that they will have a short leash if they struggle? All are from the prior regime.
The one thing I rarely see in this debate is any dispute about the quality of the Price, Betts, Pedroia, Bogearts, Rodriguez, Bradley Jr, Bucholtz, Kimbrel group. That’s a group that pretty much every group of evaluators in or near the industry would project for 20+ WAR. Any team that is widely agreed to get 20+ WAR out of 7 players or so has a low hurdle to putting together a good team. If such a team enjoys almost unfair financial advantages, a very strong farm system, and a FO that has no reason to salvage sunk costs- there is obviously a strong chance to put together a good team. Throw in the fact that the Yanks and Rays are relatively down, Baltimore has some serious issues, and the AL doesn’t have any teams with back to back 90 win seasons: and it’s easy to see Boston’s decent chances to have a good year.
c’mon guys – pointing out that a guy with one good year as a middle reliever plus injury concerns is an unreliable asset isn’t crazy talk.
@ThomServo –
I actually think the Red Sox are a decent team this year. I think they have an average offense and above average pitching, but a likely below average defense. I was much more surprised at their projections last year, when imo they had a serious lack of expected elite performers up top the roster plus some heavily overrated depth. Though I do have a problem with them being ranked ahead of the Jays, who imo it seems hard to argue that the massive difference in position player performance doesn’t outweigh the likely difference in pitching performance.
This year the additions of Price and Kimbrel should be pretty huge. Along with Mookie that gives them three expected top-end type performers when last year they had none. That should help them improve even though I think their depth is once again being overrated much like last year.
Where I probably disagree with you on the names you listed are guys like Bogaerts, Rodriguez, and Bradley – I likely don’t agree with you on their upside or downside. We likely don’t agree on exactly what Buchholz is, either.
WAR projections can be deceiving simply because so little separates the team totals. You can eyeball each individual projection and say it looks “reasonable”, but if you knock each one down by just 0.1-0.2war, they’ll still look just as reasonable, but the team total will come out as 5 wins less.
Much like last year, I’d warn against the incliniation to say the previous year was “everything going wrong”, and that there is an implicit bounceback waiting to happen. While their might have been a net “bad luck” to last year, it wasn’t nearly as lopsided as some make it seem – lots of good luck happened, from out of nowhere contributions from the likes of Bradley/Shaw/DeAza which added 5-6 unexpected war, to huge babips for guys like Bogaerts and Swihart.
From where I sit there’s just so many massive question marks. Literally 5 of the 9 slots in the order we don’t even know if the Sox have a legit MLB starting calibre player in. And of the four relatively dependable slots in the order one is filled by a 40yr old and the other by a 23yr old with only one babip-fuelled legit mlb starting calibre year under his belt. There’s just way too much risk in that lineup to project 1st place as a 50th percentile projection. Especially since after Price and Kimbrel, the pitching staff is similarly as question mark riddled.
I don’t think the Sox suck this year. I’m definitely higher on them to start this year than I was to start last year, when I was compeletely flabbergasted at the expectations placed on a star-less roster.
heck, the Sox could even win the division this year. It wouldn’t be the craziest thing that could happen.
April Fools…right?
Erod and Smith are supposed to be back by May, so let’s not go crazy here. Sandoval and Castillo are not playing in favor of Holt (2 consecutive 2.5 win seasons in 14 and 15) and Shaw due to the Redsox need to get off to a good start. It doesn’t necessarily mean both players will be ok the bench for the entire season.
As a Giants fans who’s watched Sandoval since he came up I’ve never believed his weight has had any real impact on his hitting. He’s been up and down in that regard but not because of his weight. His defense though absolutely is tied to his waste line, and I don’t blame the Red Sox for not wanting to bet that any offensive rebound he’s capable of will make up for the liability he is now in the field.
I still love Panda and hope he turns it around, maybe following a bad contracts trade to San Diego or somewhere else. I have little hope that it’s going to happen in Boston though since I suspect he’s more likely to pout in response to his benching than to take it as a challenge.
He actually hit pretty well this spring for a guy who lost his job, he mostly was outplayed on defense… by a guy who has much been a first baseman since he was drafted. Sandoval has recovered from being benched before, it just seems less likely now with 100 million guaranteed.
Also a Giants fan, I agree that Sandoval was a pretty good player at one point. But really Sandoval has all the signs of being immature, much like Puig. He had a reputation for partying too much, obviously eating too much and was even accused of sexual assault a few years back. I believe he can turn it around because he has tremendous talent, but he will have to make that choice while he is still young enough to do so.
A guy who had consistent effort problems when he was making $500k completely fell off after getting $95m guaranteed?
I can’t imagine how anyone could have seen this coming.
Yeah, its a wonder Cherrington still has a job.
It’s a wonder how everyone could not see it coming.
uhhhh, duh
Not sold Castillo is bad yet but I’m sure the Sandoval one is. He was fortunate to come off some strong post season play into his free agency, and the Sox were short sighted enough to bite. Coupled with a lack of quality third basemen too. I’m ok with Hanley, I think he bounces back offensively. Maybe they can hoodwink another team into a salary dump trade but I doubt it. I just hope he either finds “it” again or Shaw isn’t Middlebrooks in the interim.
Hanley’s not dead weight, but Sandoval is another story.
still amazed that Fangraphs still projects these guys to be worth anything. Shaw will be like Middlebrooks another Red Sox prospect overrated by Fangraphs.
Now this meme has gone too far.
I saw Sandoval on a televised spring training game the other day and I was astounded at how fat he is. Perhaps he is the rare professional athlete who loses his motivation after signing a big contract (I believe that the overwhelming majority of professional athletes are primarily motivated by ego and pride and that the money is more of a way of keeping score)?
If last season was not a wake-up call for Sandoval and did not make him understand that he can no longer rely on just his innate talent, then what would it take? I’m sure that I never had the drive and motivation that 99.9% of pro athletes have, but after last year, I would have hired a trainer and a nutritionist and spent the winter getting into the best shape possible. Instead, Sandoval seems to have spent the winter eating a trainer and a nutritionist and checking out pictures on Instagram.
When will ML teams wise up and insist on weight clauses for problematical players such as Sandoval? Sure, some other team might sign them without the weight clause, but then they will be the ones stuck with fat, unmotivated players.
He’s a lazy pig, no motivation at all. If you just work out like you’re supposed to, you can eat a nutritionist or two and still be in baseball shape.
HEY ROUND IS A SHAPE DAMMIT.
(I know, I know, it’s not. Nevertheless.)
Would a “weight clause” even be allowed in a contract under the current CBA?
So sick of the weight angle. It was “endearing” on Bartolo Colon when he was pitching well. Nobody complained about David Wells’ weight when he was doing well. None of you armchair jockeys can provide a convincing argument that Pablo’s weight is the problem.
Pablo, is that you?
Interesting that your two counter-examples are/were pitchers. There have been a fair number of successful pitchers who were fat or looked fat. The number of successful, much less star, position players as fat as Sandoval is virtually nonexistent. If being fat is not counter-indicative of being a successful professional baseball player, shouldn’t we see a lot more fat players? Not being able to see your feet when standing up can not be a positive.
It may not even be the weight, per se. But it’s an indicator that he is not training at anywhere near the level to stay successful at the ML level.
Billy butler, Benjie Molina, big papi, Pedro Alvarez. There are certainly some fat everyday guys that are productive. These are just recent examples, the farther back you go the more you would find I’m sure.
Anyone who thinks Ortiz is fat has never seen the man in person.
Dude’s ripped.
I’d hate to have Pablo Sandoval as a jockey. Talk about a night mare.
Just neighing.
Name a fat position player who played well around 30 yo
See above
Alvarez is only 29 right now, and he’s put up 0.2 WAR the last two years (his age 27-28 seasons). His last good year was when he was 26.
This will be Butler’s age 30 season. Over the last three seasons (ages 27-29) he’s been worth -0.3 WAR combined. His last season above 2 WAR was when he was 26, and he peaked at 2.3 WAR.
Molina stayed around for a while, but he only had two 2+ WAR seasons (and he maxed out at 2.2 WAR).
Ortiz has obviously been tremendous, but he’s not nearly as sloppy as Sandoval. He’s a large man with a large frame, but he also has plenty of muscle rather than just being jello. And his style of play isn’t based on quickness. It’s based on power. Someone like a late-career Bonds didn’t move well, but that style of play is fine for someone who jogs.
At his best, Sandoval was someone who was pretty quick at 3B, and he was more of a contact and doubles hitter than a power threat. He only had 2 full seasons with an ISO above .165.
When the Red Sox made the decision not to go with Sandoval there was more than met the eye, if that is even possible with Sandoval. This organization never lets it’s true feeling on an issue go public, but they must have been privately dismayed, in spite of all the spin, when Sandoval showed up fatter than ever. The single event which got Sandoval benched last year was running out of gas going first to home, and is the lasting image of Sandoval. Ben Cherington is looking worse with every passing day.
Ramirez is apparently going to be a good first baseman, so there’s that.
Sandoval had been declining for 3 years before last years collapse. It was the final 30 lbs that broke the camels back. That weight becomes harder to carry as you approach 30.
Red Sox may be hoping for this to be a bit of a wake up call for Pablo. They may also want to try and trade him off and may feel him playing regularly will just hurt his value. Maybe he can put up some good SSS stats when used strategically (favorable platoons, bad pitchers on the ,ound, etc) and inflate his value
“Shaw, meanwhile, is owed an amount of money you could actually imagine in your own bank account.”
aaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha wat