My Hypothetical AL MVP Ballot

With a week to go in the regular season, the AL MVP race is all but over. Mike Trout is going to win it this year, and the only question is whether he’s going to win unanimously. There’s no real argument at the top this year, and no real way you can even make a case for anyone else. He’s been the best hitter in baseball. He’s still a great baserunner. He plays an up-the-middle position. He’s hit even better in clutch situations. His team won the division. Unless a voter just wants to draw attention to himself, the #1 spot on the AL MVP ballot is as easy as picking the NL Cy Young award this year.

But spots #2 through #10 are still pretty interesting, with a lot of players having good-but-not-transcendent seasons. And going through the process of filling out the top 10 lets us talk about the process of evaluating different player types, so while it probably doesn’t matter whether someone finishes 4th or 7th in the grand scheme of things, I’ll present my full ballot with an explanation for each player. To the list.

1. Mike Trout, CF, Angels.

A vote for anyone else is essentially indefensible. There’s no other candidate here. It’s beyond time to recognize the best player in the game for being just that.

2. Michael Brantley, LF/CF, Indians.

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I fully expect this spot to go to either Victor Martinez or Jose Abreu, who have had great seasons at the plate and excel at the things that voters traditionally care about. However, Brantley is more than deserving of the best non-Trout-AL-player award, and thankfully, we don’t even have to base the argument on defensive metrics. While Brantley has played nearly 400 innings in center field this year, UZR and DRS have never really loved his glovework, and even including the position adjustment to give him credit for the time in CF, he rates at -8 runs on defense this year. Brantley is in no way a traditional MVP candidate, but he’s also not being propped up by an aggressive evaluation of his value in the field.

Instead, Brantley has just quietly shown how one can be a great offensive player without being a pure slugger. By making a ton of contact and driving the ball to the gaps, Brantley has managed a .325/.384/.506 line that is good for a 154 wRC+, fifth best in the AL. And that’s just what he’s done at the plate; he’s also been the third best baserunner in the AL this year. When you add in credit for the runs he’s created with his legs, he grades out as the AL’s second best offensive player. Yes, even ahead of the big sluggers who hit more home runs.

Brantley probably won’t finish second, because voters don’t value singles, doubles, and stolen bases the same way they value home runs and RBIs, but Brantley has hit well enough that there really shouldn’t even be too serious of an argument about where he stands relative to Abreu and Martinez. Brantley has been their offensive equal while also playing the field, and about 30% of the time, playing an up-the-middle position. You don’t have to even think he’s a particularly great defender to realize that he’s clearly been more valuable defensively than a DH and a slow-footed 1B, and since those two don’t even have an offensive advantage to prop themselves up on, Brantley becomes a pretty easy pick here.

3A and 3B: Felix Hernandez, SP, Mariners and Corey Kluber, SP, Indians

I’ll write more about the AL Cy Young race tomorrow, but separating these two really might come down to their last starts of the year. Hernandez wins by runs allowed, but he’s been supported by a pitcher-friendly park and a good defensive team. Kluber wins by the fielding independent metrics, which don’t hold the Indians atrocious defense against him, but his career .326 BABIP suggests that perhaps he’s prone to giving up tougher-to-defend contact, so holding some of his slightly higher ERA against him is fair. Both have been great, and splitting these hairs will not be easy, so I’m just punting on that for today and putting these two in a tie for third.

5. Jose Bautista, OF, Blue Jays.

It’s Michael Brantley without the baserunning, basically. Or, if you prefer, it’s Jose Abreu while also playing a more important defensive position. Bautista has been mostly overlooked because we’ve gotten used to him putting up .400 wOBAs on non-contending teams, but he remains one of the game’s very best hitters, and he’s not a big negative on the field or the bases. He might not be the best hitter in baseball anymore, but he’s still one of the best players in the sport.

6. Josh Donaldson, 3B, A’s.

Now we start getting into the area with a dozen players for a half dozen spots, with few differences between them. Donaldson’s WAR is based on a strongly positive defensive rating, but as I wrote about Hunter Pence last week, I also believe that MVP voting should reward hitters for their situational hitting, and Donaldson’s WAR understates how good he’s been in creating runs with the opportunities he’s been given. If you decide you don’t like UZR’s estimate of his defense and cut it in half, but then also credit Donaldson for hitting well with men on base, his WAR actually goes up, not down. I wouldn’t hang my hat on Donaldson definitively being better than any of the next four guys on the list, but neither have any of them been obviously better than he has been. You don’t have to put full faith in single-season UZR to acknowledge that Josh Donaldson has had a great year.

7. Jon Lester, SP, A’s.

By ERA or even ERA-, Lester is right there with Felix and Kluber, but he’s also a reminder of why the concept of “earned runs” is silly; he’s given up 14 “unearned runs”, so his RA9 is actually almost exactly in line with his FIP. Essentially, the sequencing of events after an official scorer awarded an error has stricken some of the runs he’s allowed from his record, but there’s no real reason to omit those from the ledger without also attempting to account for runs his defense might have saved him. But even holding those “unearned runs” against him, Lester has still had an excellent season, and deserves recognition as one of the AL’s most valuable contributors this year.

8. Jose Abreu, 1B, White Sox.

Abreu has had a very good season at the plate, but as a one dimensional player, he has to really outhit players who do more than just hit, and that includes playing almost every day, which Abreu hasn’t quite managed to do. With only 139 games played, he’s a dozen or so games played behind the league leaders, and those missing games serve to push him down slightly from where he’d be if he had played more frequently. On a rate basis, he’s probably been a top five player, but he just didn’t quite play enough to crack that tier for me.

9. Robinson Cano, 2B, Mariners.

Despite the focus on his home run total, Cano has been his usual excellent self, posting a 138 wRC+ and playing solid defense at second base. But his placement here is another example of my preference for rewarding players who take advantage of the situations they’re given, and create more runs than context-neutral stats suggest. Among AL hitters, Cano is #2 in wRC+ with runners in scoring position, and his RE24 is five runs highest than his linear-weights based batting runs. In a crowded section of the ballot, Cano’s excellence at converting run scoring opportunities into actual runs gets him the nod.

10. Alex Gordon, LF, Royals.

Like Donaldson, Gordon’s WAR is based on giving him a lot of credit for being an excellent defensive outfielder. However, also like Donaldson, he also has converted a high number of his run scoring opportunities, and he ranks #3 in the AL in wRC+ with men in scoring position, just behind Cano and Abreu. Even if you cut a few runs off his defensive metrics, you can add a few back as a clutch hitting bonus, and Gordon still rates as one of the AL’s best performers this year.

Explaining the Snub: Victor Martinez, DH, Tigers

I think Martinez is probably going to finish second in the actual voting, and I’d be surprised if there was a ballot turned in without his name on it; Voters just aren’t going to shun a guy who hit .334/.403/.563 on a playoff team. But Martinez is perhaps the best example in recent history of why baserunning should not be overlooked when talking about offensive contributions to run scoring.

If we’re going to quote Martinez’s number of times reaching base, we should also talk about how often he’s managed to convert those into runs, which is the actual currency of baseball. And Martinez’s baserunning numbers are staggeringly terrible.

He’s been on first base when a single was hit 42 times this year, and he’s managed to go first-to-third just twice. Twice!. The AL average this is year, over 600 plate appearances, has been to be on first when a single is hit 30 times, and to advance to third on nine of those. Martinez’s excellent batting record has given him 12 additional chances, and he still has the fourth lowest total of first-to-thirds in the AL this year. The only guys who advanced at a lower rate were David Ortiz, Billy Butler, and Brian McCann.

How about scoring from first on a double? Martinez has been on first base 20 times when a double was hit, and he scored once. Again per 600 plate appearances, the league average was to be on first base when a double was hit eight times, and to score on three of those. Thanks to Martinez’s batting skills and the power of J.D. Martinez, Victor has had more than twice as many chances to score from first on a double as the average hitter and has still only managed to do it the one time.

Despite hitting in front of a guy who hit .320/.363/.570 this year, Martinez has actually turned a below average number of times on base into runs scored. This matters, and we shouldn’t assume that baserunning is such a small part of the game that we can safely ignore it and just focus on a player’s numbers at the plate. Martinez has had a great season at the plate, but less great season once baserunning is factored in. And as a DH, offense is all he has. Martinez certainly had an an excellent season at the plate, but there’s more to baseball than just hitting.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

132 Comments
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A Perturbed Reader
11 years ago

Hypothetically, how much would fangraphs readers have to pay in order to not see those silly advertisements at the bottom?

I’m commenting about them because they seem to be multiplying.

Please.

Larry Bernandez
11 years ago

Nothing, if you install adblock.

PBS
11 years ago

Don’t use adblock. Then Fangraphs won’t make any money and may have to charge for this free public service.

maxjusttypedMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  PBS

I use adblock, but I’d also be more than willing to pay for a Fangraphs subscription. I do the same for BP, and FG produces superior content.

stretchfest
11 years ago
Reply to  PBS

1. Buy FG+, it’s $5 for great additional content.
2. Use Adblock

Mike Mathers
11 years ago
Reply to  PBS

How does Fangraphs make money from people who have ads shown but never click them because they are not internet fish?

Dan Sloane
11 years ago
Reply to  PBS

Ads generally pay per page view, not number of actual ads clicked on. That’s why Adblock hurts revenue.

arc
11 years ago
Reply to  PBS

No it won’t.

Jackie T.
11 years ago

I was wondering what you were talking about, and then I remembered I have AdBlock installed.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

Eh, if I had adblock I wouldn’t know why Motley Fool is asking me not to retire at 62.

DCH
11 years ago

Miguel Cabrera?

Steve
11 years ago
Reply to  DCH

… is not MVP worthy?

My echo and bunnymen
11 years ago
Reply to  Steve

I would strongly consider him for the top ten though with Adam Jones, Kyle Seager, Jose Altuve, and more because MC is defintitely top ten worthy. I would probably arbitrarily cut it off at Yan Gomes (Chris Sale for Pitchers), the large gap in WAR between him and Dozier is enough for me (same with Sale and Richards), although that would leave Victor Martinez off my ballot as well. This would just be a starting point and I would then break each down further and separate them.

steex
11 years ago

So am I to understand your Top 10 would have 15-17 guys in it?

My echo and bunnymen
11 years ago

Hahaha, although the last sentence should tell pretty clear that I would separate the ten most willing candidates.

novaether
11 years ago
Reply to  DCH

Cabrera will pick up some MVP votes for sure. Cano perhaps shouldn’t be in the top 10 when considering WPA. Miggy ranks 4th in WPA to Cano’s 30th. I suppose assigning value on the spectrum of context-neutral to pure context statistics is a personal preference, but Miggy would bump Cano down a spot in my list.

Marco
11 years ago

“326 BABIP suggests that perhaps he’s prone to giving up tougher-to-defend contact”

Or that his defense is dreadful at converting batted balls into outs.

Expo45
11 years ago
Reply to  Marco

The Indians have the second worst DEF rating this year, and were dead last by over 25 runs from 2011-2013, Kluber’s early years. So yeah, that probably hasn’t worked wonders for his babip against. In Dave’s Defense, Kluber has given up a line drive rate over 23% compared to about 20.5% for the AL as a whole, so there’s some basis for thinking he tends towards a higher babip.

Hurtlockertwo
11 years ago

Trout #1, Abreu #2

Paul
11 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

Trout #1, Abreu #2 is what I’d say if I was being facetious.

FTFY.

Sam Fuld
11 years ago

wow… I never get any love

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Sam Fuld

Sure you do. I saw the whole ballot, you were 87th. Which is a perfectly lovely figure.

Mike Green
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

On the official #keepnotgraphs ballot, he finished 69th. Which is a more perfectly lovely figure.

Lee
11 years ago

Seems like Altuve is a more deserving candidate than Cano: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=5417,3269

Not that you have to include either, but unless you value the Cano’s better HR total (and .004 advantage in slug), the former bests the latter almost across the board.

Jim
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Altuve pecializes in infield hits, really? What about those 45 doubles? Also, you had talked about how base running was a big drag on VMart. What about Altuve stealing 54 bases in 63 attempts. What impact did that have on the Astros run scoring? 45 doubles, 3 triples and 54 stolen bases. That’s 102 times he immediately put himself in scoring position for the other Astro hitters. Not sure he had 102 infield base hits.

Sean
11 years ago
Reply to  Jim

The other Article that went up just today says 29. That’s a lot less than 100.

Dave succumbing to hyperbole in a statistical-based idea? Seems incongruous.

MARK LIU
11 years ago
Reply to  Jim

Maybe he played on a scrub team, whereas Cano may make the playoffs?

JamesDaBear
11 years ago
Reply to  Lee

Your own list ranks Cano 1 and Altuve 2 in almost every category offensively, and Cano owns him defensively.

RIP Oderus Urungus
11 years ago

No one will care about poor advanced baserunning stats when V Mart can hit like that. It’s certainly not a reason to leave him off your ballot entirely, although I guess you are trying to emphasize your point.

ZenMadman
11 years ago

What I’ve learned from this article is that the lead singer of Gwar is dead. Sadness.

RIP Dave Brockie
11 years ago

Oderus is missing. Vulvatron will help find him. Wherever in the galaxy he may have gone.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
11 years ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if Adam Jones gets a couple of 2nd or 3rd place votes. BBWAA members love him and he is a gold glove CF on a team that ran away with the division.

I could see Felix’s situation depending on the Mariners. If the Mariners can somehow land a WC slot over KC or Oakland,I think he could be a lock for #2

Todd Beall
11 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Me either. I am surprised at the non-inclusion of Jones or Cruz in the top 10. But then, fangraphs for some reason has undervalued the O’s team all season. No problem with #1 being Trout. But Jones should be right up there. Great on offense, defense, and an incredible team leader.

David
11 years ago
Reply to  Todd Beall

Well no, he hasn’t been good on offense (117 wRC+), though this his first year since 2008 with positive defensive ratings. The team leader thing is too nebulous to bother with.

Zach
11 years ago

In addition to being a bat-only player in the truest sense, V-Mart has only played 116 games thus far. The full month+ that he missed is a significant demerit.

My echo and bunnymen
11 years ago
Reply to  Zach
Chris
11 years ago
Reply to  Zach

You seem to be confusing Victor (144 Games) and J.D. (116 Games)

Jim Price
11 years ago
Reply to  Zach

You have the wrong Martinez I think. Lately he’s been playing a sort of passable 1B a few games here and there to rest Cabrera. He’ll get about 150 games.

KCDaveInLA
11 years ago

I started thinking that if not Victor Martinez, maybe Ian Kinsler deserves to be in the top ten; he’s actually a decent baserunner, but with his .306 OBP…no.

My top ten: Trout, Donaldson, Martinez, Brantley, Gordon, Kluber, Abreu, Hernandez, Adam Jones, Cano. Honorable mentions to Lester, Kyle Seagar, Miggy Cabrera.

Paul Kasiński
11 years ago
Reply to  KCDaveInLA

No Bautista??

KCDaveInLA
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul Kasiński

Yes…HM to him too; I know it’s old-school thinking, but I have a hard time voting for a player in the AL East from a non-playoff team this year, given that NY and Boston haven’t really been in it.

Paul
11 years ago

In the MVP race, Victor Martinex and Jose Abreu are at least 3 Altuves behind Trout.

raws
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Although they make Cameron’s simplistic claim of Trout’s superiority as a hitter debatable.

Chicago Mark
11 years ago

I would bet a lot (if I had it) that Trout will not be unanimous.

Chicago Mark
11 years ago

Doesn’t Dave and FG think situational hitting is random? If I am correct, why include it in decision making?

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  Chicago Mark

Value is about winning games, not actual skill. Hitting a two out single that fails to score a run does not actually provide any value (beyond the pitcher having to pitch to an additional hitter, etc.). It is quite possible to have a good statistical year without actually providing a lot of value to your team. It is also possible to provide much more actual value to your team than your numbers suggest. MVP should be based on actual value, not hypothetical value (linear weights are not real, they are hypothetical).

joser
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

You’ll notice every year when “MVP” voting comes up, the more thoughtful writers spend (or have in the past spent) a fair amount of time and words parsing what the word “valuable” means in the context of their vote. The more sensible of those discussions amount to what you have summed up nicely and concisely here.

therealnod
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

Linear weights are not hypothetical.

Tim
11 years ago
Reply to  Chicago Mark

Well I don’t think Dave speaks for everyone at FG, but I’m guessing his logic boils down to, “So what, it’s just an award”, which I don’t really buy, but hey, different strokes.

I don’t really see how you can argue that and then look down your nose at people who consider RBI in their voting process.

Having read FG for many years now, it seems like Dave changes his award-voting philosophy every year based on which players he decides he wants to vote for.

Stoop
11 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Does anyone remember Dave’s post from a few years back after yet another terrible decision by the BBWAA where he declared he was going to stop writing/talking/caring about awards? And then never followed through, even for one season) Yeah…

Chicago Mark
11 years ago
Reply to  Stoop

I remember this. Dave is a PITA. But I’ll give him many (more) mulligans. But situational hitting seems always to have been something he doesn’t believe in. He hasn’t changed his mind on that…..until now maybe.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Seems to me Dave is using situational hitting as a tie-breaker of sorts since the 4-10-ish spots are pretty much a toss up.

Deelron
11 years ago
Reply to  Chicago Mark

Even if you think it’s random to a point, season awards are about what actually happened, not an analysis of the players true talent level or predicted level of success going forward in the future.

Chicago Mark
11 years ago
Reply to  Deelron

I like that Deelron.
Thanks

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  Deelron

This.

It is not inconsistent to acknowledge that these things happen while still arguing that they are not indicative of any repeatable skill or predictable.

He repeatedly acknowledged Allen Craig’s numbers with men on base last year while also arguing that it wasn’t caused by some unique skill that Craig possessed.

Bubba
11 years ago
Reply to  Chicago Mark

Dave has explained this before. Players who hit well in the clutch should be rewarded, even if there’s no evidence to suggest they will continue to do so in the future.

Bomok
11 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

Why should a player be rewarded for being lucky?
Dave said that for MotY he won’t just compare pythag record and actual record because it’s mostly based on luck.
Why reward the player but not the manager?
Infield singles aren’t the same as outfield singles, and that make a big differance. But wR24 is just a joke.

FIP'n good
11 years ago
Reply to  Bomok

Scientific studies often show that nearly all success in most fields is based on mostly luck.

Simon
11 years ago
Reply to  Bomok

Eh, because the lucky player has been more valuable to their team, in that they have helped them win more games? Given that we are talking about the MVP that’s relevant, even if not repeatable.

Tim
11 years ago

I don’t really understand what UZR has to do with situational hitting. Because I’m not crazy about outlier UZR guys I should give them credit for being clutch on offense (which I also don’t believe in)? Kind of a non sequitur.

Almost seems like you just didn’t want this to turn into another UZR debate (understandably) so you tried to head people off at the pass with “hey, clutch!” to pacify them.

Jim Price
11 years ago

I’ve seen Jose Abreu play 1B and not sure he should get credit for being in the field, he is one of the worst 1B’s in the league right now. He doesn’t look like much of a baserunner either. And he plays in a HR friendly park. I can’t see Abreu’s defense and baserunning mattering that much to give him an edge over V-Mart.

If Victor could run like even an average player he’d be hitting .350+ with an extra 10 doubles, I would bet he leads the league in longest singles.

Eminor3rd
11 years ago
Reply to  Jim Price

I’m actually a little impressed with his baserunning. But yeah, the glove is a negative.

Eminor3rd
11 years ago

The AL awards are going to be extra boring this year. Everyone knows it’s going to be Trout (MVP), Felix (Cy), and Abreu (ROY). The only thing vaguely up for grabs is how many first place votes Kluber can grab.

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  Eminor3rd

I think it’s far from a sure thing Felix wins CY. Kluber has been very, very dominant. This final start for each will be a big deciding factor.

John
11 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

No, Felix has been a lock all year.

Being a dominant pitcher is more than strike outs.

Kluber isn’t even top 10 in WHIP and AVG. Just out of the top 5 on OBP and SLG.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  John

Wow! WHIP and AVG? I’m convinced!

Norm
11 years ago

Can’t wait to see how many 10th place votes Jeter gets from the BBWAA.

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  Norm

Zero.

Bomok
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

yeah…
He’ll be 1st.
Poor Trout.
Damn re2pect.

King Buzzo's Fro
11 years ago
Reply to  Norm

He’s got to have the gold glove locked down

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  Norm

This Fangraphs narrative really needs to be put to bed. The narrative is that Jeter’s fame is all to do with playing in New York, and not his actual skill. Basically, that he is a creation of the BBWAA. The actual record does not support this narrative at all. First, it is extremely easy to find negative articles written about Jeter from the mainstream press. Second, the BBWAA have never really came close to giving Jeter an MVP despite the fact that he should have won at least twice (1999, 2006). Both times that Jeter should have won, the award was given to a lesser player on a small market media-darling team.

StPaulPaul
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

While I agree with your overall point, it’s not at all clear that he should have won in either of those two years. He was more deserving than the actual winner both times, sure, but so were other guys. 2006, in particular, he doesn’t seem that close (even if he’s way closer than Morneau).

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  StPaulPaul

Who else would you give it to in 2006? The only other reasonable candidate besides Jeter was Joe Mauer.

1999 is pretty clearly Jeter’s because Manny and Alomar played on the same team (thus making it unclear whether either was even the team MVP, let alone league MVP.

Drew7
11 years ago
Reply to  StPaulPaul

Umm…Pedro?

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  StPaulPaul

Yeah, fair point on Pedro. I’m generally of the mind that it better be a superlative season for a pitcher to get MVP, but Pedro 1999 is absurd.

JamesDaBear
11 years ago
Reply to  StPaulPaul

In 2006, Jeter was 9th in bWAR and 4th in fWAR. Sizemore and Santana beat him by a lot in either. He was behind Mauer in both too.

Mike Green
11 years ago

It’s like a good movie that you’ve seen before. Michael Brantley turned 27 on May 15. His home run totals the last 4 years: 7, 6, 10, 20.

Brantley’s BABIP is actually noticeably lower than Trout’s. His K rate is from another era.

James Gresock
11 years ago

Did you forget that the Astros and Jose Altuve are in the AL now?

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  James Gresock

Did you forget you were on Fangraphs and not The Bleacher Report?

Nelson Cruz
11 years ago

So am I extra-snubbed just for my defense? Don’t see Baltimore being this good without me.

bookbook
11 years ago
Reply to  Nelson Cruz

No need, Nellie. When you’re 41st in the majors in WAR, you don’t gotta be extra snubbed for defense. Hey, at least he’s the third most worthy on the Orioles.

Old school baseball guy
11 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

But man, those dingers!!

Walter
11 years ago

You’re trying too hard

Kevin
11 years ago

A Detroit writer will vote V-Mart first because they saw him play more and saw how valuable he was.

Jimmer
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Detroit writers crack me up.

King Buzzo's Fro
11 years ago
Reply to  Jimmer

This happens in every market

Jimmer
11 years ago

Detroit writers, both of them, one time voted for one of their players because he had the best single season of any Tiger they’d ever seen. That’s what they said. As if players are supposed to be compared to other players from their same team’s history for an annual league award. You saying every city does that?

thirteenthirteen
11 years ago

That isn’t my experience at all. The (generally trollerific) Giants beat writers seem to take the awards very seriously.

They will, however, throw a 10th place vote at Jeremy Affeldt for funsies.

Jaack
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Or because the Angels were so dominant, they would have made the playoffs without Trout, whereas V-Mart won the AL Central crown completely on his own power.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Jaack

Which is one HELL of a feat. Pitching every inning every game, defending all nine positions, batting in all nine slots in the order, for 162 games! I’m just dumbfounded that he was able to do all that and single-handedly win the Central, all by his lonesome!

Bomok
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

LeBaseball James!

isavage30
11 years ago
Reply to  Jaack

As an Indians fan, I would not argue that Victor Martinez single handedly won the AL Central crown. If Victor Martinez didn’t exist, the Indians would have gone roughly 15-3 against Detroit. Same could be said for the Tigers’ other Martinez though. MVP should just be “players named Martinez who play for Detroit”

BenRevereDoesSteroids
11 years ago

You can’t throw Adrian Beltre a 10th place bone? Damn you, Cameron.

Andy
11 years ago

I find it really interesting that barely a month ago, Gordon was leading Trout in WAR, and people here were arguing his defense had been overrated, that he wasn’t really better than Trout. And he’s pretty much fallen off the map since. Trout has picked up 1.8 WAR in the past 30 days while Gordon has been not much better than replacement level.

Stan
11 years ago

Step 1: Sort players by fWAR.
Step 2: Fill out ballot
Step 3: …
Step 4: Profit

MustBunique
11 years ago
Reply to  Stan

Step 3: Steal underpants

Doug Lampert
11 years ago

To me, the interesting question is what this tells us about his not so hypothetical NL MVP ballot.

He doesn’t mind voting for pitchers (3 on this sample), and Kershaw is the highest WAR in the NL even before you credit him with his 7.5 runs above average on defense. His total WAR (pitcher + batting and fielding) is far above anyone else.

I really don’t see why pitcher defense is not included in pitcher WAR, hitting, OK, I can see a case for leaving it off, but all pitchers need to play their position and Kershaw’s defense is worth a lot.

I can’t see how Kershaw isn’t his MVP candidate unless he REALLY values catcher framing numbers and lets those push Lucroy over the top.

War may not be the only analysis tool used, but there’s a pretty big separation between Kershaw, Lucroy, McCutchen, Stanton, and Rendon and everyone else (half a win between Rendon and Posey/Peralta), so I think the ballot is
1) Kershaw
2) Lucroy
3-5) McCutchen/Stanton/Rendon

Hank G.
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

To me, the interesting question is what this tells us about his not so hypothetical NL MVP ballot.

Or onne could just look at his FanGraphs Player of the Year ballot when that is released and pick out the NL players on it. If he (hypothetically) votes Kershaw second for Player of the Year behind Trout, I can’t see any reason why he would not have voted Kershaw #1 for NL MVP.

Mark
11 years ago

Do we have stats on scoring from second on a single? I would be curious to see how Victor Martinez does in that area.

Pennsy
11 years ago
Reply to  Mark

These numbers are available on b-r. Victor Martinez has been on 2B when a single is hit 22 times and scored on 13 of them, or 59% of the time. To compare Martinez to a totally random other position player, Anthony Rendon has been on 2B when a single is hit 30 times and scored on 23 of them, 76% of the time.

Josh B
11 years ago

Indefensible!! Now get off my lawn!!

Bill
11 years ago

My ballot, if it counted for anything, which it doesn’t 🙁

1. Mike Trout
2. Josh Donaldson
3. Felix Hernandez
4. Kyle Seager
5. Corey Kluber
6. Robinson Cano (Damn the Mariners are a top heavy team)
7. Jon Lester
8. Miguel Cabrera
9. Jose Bautista
10. Jose Abreu

K
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

You realize how ridiculous it is to not have Brantley in the top 10 at all right? You know he has the 2nd highest WAR in the AL don’t you? That he’s 3rd in batting average in the AL? 2nd most # of hits. Very close to 100 Runs and 100 RBIs. 7 more steals than Trout…. Uh yeah.

Bill
11 years ago
Reply to  K

I know, I know I missed Brantley, he should be about third, yeah, third seems like a good spot for him.

Bill
11 years ago

And my NL ballot for good measure:

1. Giancarlo Stanton
2. Clayton Kershaw
3. Russell Martin
4. Buster Posey
5. Jonathan Lucroy
6. Devin Mesoraco
7. Jason Heyward
8. Hunter Pence
9. Anthony Rendon
10. Andrew McCutchen

Jose
11 years ago

About Martinez, not all singles and doubles are created equal. Also, him not taking the extra base its actually him not taking the chance of getting thrown out at 3rd.

Also, most of JD’s singles and doubles have been to LF.

Bomok
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose

But with him it’s a chance.
With others it’s a given

Anthony
11 years ago

I wouldn’t have much of an issue with Beltre, Zobrist, Seager, Adam Jones, or Miguel Cabrera receiving down-ballot votes, either. Especially Beltre, Seager and Jones, though I imagine Miggy is gonna get more votes than the other four.

John Daker
11 years ago

I find your lack of Adam Jones and/or Steve Pearce… disturbing.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  John Daker

Steve Pearce…This has to be sarcasm.

BenRevereDoesSteroids
11 years ago

1. Adrian Beltre
2. Adrian Beltre
3. Adrian Beltre
4. Adrian Beltre
5. Adrian Beltre
6. Adrian Beltre
7. Adrian Beltre
8. Adrian Beltre
9. Adrian Beltre
10. Bedrian Altre

Bomok
11 years ago

Switch #7 and #4.
Other than that, it looks good!

pft
11 years ago

“Despite hitting in front of a guy who hit .320/.363/.570 this year, Martinez has actually turned a below average number of times on base into runs scored.”

Not sure if the fact that V-Mart has been pinch run for about 11 times changes anything. But if the PR scored he should be given some credit for it.

In any event, if RS count for so much, then RBI’s should as well, and 100 RBI’s ain’t chump change especially as Miggie batting ahead of him is not a great baserunner either.

Tigers would not even have made the playoffs if they got only league average production at DH

Mack
11 years ago
Reply to  pft

Why should Martinez receive credit for forcing his manager to use an extra player from his bench?

anon
11 years ago
Reply to  Mack

I don’t think the offended V-Mart fans can get much weirder than this.

Maybe we should count any plays made by the first baseman when V-Mart is DHing as V-Mart’s defence too. Very good of him to let another player do what he can’t. Valuable, I mean.

JamesDaBear
11 years ago

I’d like to know why Cano gets in the top 10 over Seager.

D.K. WillardsonMember since 2020
11 years ago

I realize this is FG but Trout would have the lowest BA of an AL MVP since 1969. Combine that with top 7 K% and it’s hard to say its a slam dunk. Would certainly highlight the significant buy-in of advanced metrics at FG.

I’m interested in understanding if/how the scarcity of outs is taken into consideration in calculating WAR. If it is not, seems like WAR may be overvaluing the big power / high K% player relative to the low out making player who allows an inning to continue. Can’t seem to find any analysis on this…??

Jason B
11 years ago

You are correct – outs are a scarce and valuable commodity.

Witness: Trout is currently 7th in the AL in OBP, which is one of our best tools to measure a player’s ability to avoid out creation. So he is among the very best in the league at not creating outs, and then makes considerable contributions with his baserunning and defense on top of that.

Problem: solved!

Dan
11 years ago

This lowest batting average of an AL MVP since 1969 thing is a curious piece of criteria selection, and here is why:

1. Conveniently chose only the A.L. Trout’s average is currently .291, which is higher than Bench in ’72, Stargell in ’79 (co-MVP), Schmidt in ’80, Murphy in ’82, Schmidt in ’86, Dawson in ’87, Gibson in ’88, and the same as Mitchell in ’89, but okay, that’s the NL, so if you wanted you could just say the NL is worse. Just as point of comparison though, Mike Schmidt. His MVP’s were won without eye-popping batting averages because he put a lot of runs on the board with homers, walks, some more homers, and defense.

2. Cherry-picked 1969. Sure, the 60’s were a pitcher’s era, but consider the fact that batting average has been falling and strikeouts have been rising fairly steadily for a while now. Five years ago the AL batting average was 14 points higher than it is now, ten years ago it was 17 points higher than it is now, and fifteen years ago it was 22 points higher than it is now. If BA is a fixation, a better way to do it would be BA compared to league average BA, and Trout is +.038. Many more players have won MVP awards with BA’s lower than that, relative to league average.

3. Certainly someone has to have the lowest batting average as an MVP since 1969. Not that these guys all deserved their hardware, but Boog Powell, Reggie Jackson, Don Baylor, and Alex Rodriguez won MVP awards with batting averages of .297, .293, .296, and .298, respectively. Are these significantly different than .291, given the overall context of “value”? If so, what is the minimum batting average that a player should have before he should be eligible for the MVP award since 1969?

With strikeouts being what they are and batting averages headed south, I would be the first to endorse a player for the award if he manages to be the most valuable by putting the ball in play and getting on base with a high batting average. Until then there is no reason to ignore evidence of value because certain other numbers don’t seem like those of an MVP.

D.K. WillardsonMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan

From purely a hitting standpoint, V-Mart meets your criteria and was probably the best hitter this season. Maybe Trout is most valuable as a player due to the added speed and defense but just wondering if the WAR model has a power & speed bias by not factoring in out-scarcity. I don’t know and that’s why I posed the question.

Dan
11 years ago

I’m not sure what you mean. WAR, by its very nature, factors in how many outs a batter is responsible for.

D.K. WillardsonMember since 2020
11 years ago

I was looking more at how preserving an out results in future outcomes / value that could be allocated in some way to the batter.

JamesDaBear
11 years ago

You’re using batting average as your evidence which doesn’t accurately describe out-scarcity. Trout has a .380 OBP and a .404 wOBA. Out-scarcity isn’t among his negatives no matter what his K% is. What you’re doing is double discrediting Trout for his K% since it’s already factored into his batting average and neither describe how well a player avoids making outs.

Kudos to V-Mart for having an OBP 28 points higher. It’s why he’s even in the discussion for top 20 AL MVP even with his severe shortcomings in baserunning and defense.

Brian Petti
11 years ago

How much added value is Martinez’ 5+ WAR season at DH when there were only three total DH’s who managed 3+ WAR? If Alex Gordon gets a bump because he compares favorably to other LF defensively, shouldn’t Martinez be given a bump for completely outperforming the rest of his position offensively?

I think there’s a hidden value in both Martinez and Altuve in their low K%. I don’t know how to find the data, but there must be a way to figure out how many runners they advanced on outs as opposed to no advancement on Ks. They are both tremendous at putting the ball in play. They both have 17 GIDP on the season, which is relatively low for their contact rates (Cano and Bautista from the list above have 18, and Brantley has 16.) I’d imagine their ability to move runners more than counteracts their DPs.

scatterbrian
11 years ago

“You don’t have to put full faith in single-season UZR to acknowledge that Josh Donaldson has had a great year.”

No, but you can look at his UZR over the last 2.5 seasons to see that his single-season UZR is probably on point.

James
11 years ago

Look at Mike Trout 2nd half numbers. He’s batting .260 since the all star break. He is not the MVP. Open your eyes people.

Dave
11 years ago

Trout has now struck out 180 times. Has there ever been an MVP that has struck out that much? That leaves a lot of runners stranded with no chance to advance.

Dave
11 years ago

One more comment. Besides the 180 strikeouts (and name me one great player who struck out 180 times in a season), Trout’S UZR is -7.5 That’s right – negative. This is a guy who in 2012 had a 13.3 UZR – positive. The 2014 Mike Trout can’t hold a candle to the 2012 Mike Trout.

I know Cameron will never respond to this. I wish he would. But… something is really off. You can put the stock in WAR if you want, and, yeah, I get it, but… c’mon 180 K’s – UZR of -7.5 Trout is NOT the player he was in the past- and despite he might win MVP this year – I really don’t see it. Yeah, he’s a good player, but he’s got shortcomings now that he never had before – and you can’t ignore this by just saying WAR, WAR, WAR…

JamesDaBear
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Who’s saying that 2012 Mike Trout wasn’t better? How is that even the slightest bit relevant? Because he should have won it then doesn’t mean he has to be that good to win it now. It took a Triple Crown winner to deny him then, and he doesn’t have that kind of competition this year.

Whether you can grasp this concept doesn’t make it any less true: If Trout’s 180 Ks were a problem, he wouldn’t have a .380 OBP and a .563 SLG%. These are dominating numbers for a player with his skills, much less one that also plays CF for a playoff team. Case closed.

Dave
11 years ago

Point taken. Thanks.

stevenam
11 years ago

I think there needs to be a new stat kept, called “Bases Added”, which is a count of the total bases a player earns for his team, both by getting hits, extra base hits, stealing bases, and moving runners by hit, fielder’s choice or sacrifice. If you look at a run being the equivalent of four bases, this would be a way to add all aspects of a player’s offensive contribution to scoring runs, by bases. A stolen base= 1, as does a bases empty single; a solo hr = 4, and a grand slam = 10. The principle being that advancing runners a base in the “currency” in offense. Thoughts?