No, You Can’t Trade Your Newfound Reliever for a Shiny Prospect

Rick Scuteri-USA TODAY Sports

I’m writing this article for selfish reasons. Every Monday, I chat with FanGraphs readers (come hang out with us! But not next Monday, because it’s a holiday). Four or five times per chat, someone asks a variation of the same question: “Should my team trade this reliever who has been better than expected to a contender for a huge haul?” Four or five times per chat, I say that they should, but that no one would trade with them. So now, I’m trying to put some numbers to it.

The first argument against doing this is fairly simple: Reliever performance doesn’t work that way. To measure this analytically, I took a bunch of recent seasons (2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023) and split them into two. I looked at the correlation between first-half numbers and second-half numbers for every reliever we listed as qualified in the first half of those seasons. I was looking for a simple question: How much can we infer about second-half numbers based on first-half numbers?

The answer, unsurprisingly, is “not very much.” There’s an obvious problem. Relievers simply don’t pitch very many innings. Last year, Jake Bird led all relievers in innings pitched at the All-Star break, with 53.1. Most relievers had meaningfully fewer innings. They didn’t pitch a ton of innings in the second half, either, because that’s just not how relief pitching works. Only 20 relievers threw 70 or more innings last year.

In tiny samples like that, ERA is so noisy that it hardly makes sense. One bad inning, one scorekeeper’s decision, a homer coming with the bases juiced instead of empty, and a good half-season can turn into a bad one. The same is true in reverse. Trying to predict how good a reliever’s second half will go would be wildly difficult even if you knew their true talent level.

That’s not to say there’s no relationship whatsoever. Pitchers with lower ERAs in the first half tend to have lower ERAs in the second half. Pitchers with lower FIPs in the first half tend to have lower ERAs in the second half. Pitchers with lower preseason projected ERAs tend to have lower ERAs in the second half. Pitchers with lower xFIPs in the first half tend to have lower ERAs in the second half. I could keep listing more things if I wanted to, but I’m afraid you might fall asleep reading it.

All of those correlations are significantly significant. Neat! The problem is, they’re also tiny. On their own, any one run-prevention statistic doesn’t explain much variation in second-half run prevention at all. We’re talking 9% of the variation at the most, and mostly much less. Even if I perform some Bad Statistics™ and throw all of those into a single multi-variable linear regression, we’re talking 10% of the variation or so.

In plain English, it’s more or less impossible to use information from how a relief pitcher did in the first half to estimate how good their results will be in the second half. Both sides of data are simply too noisy. That roughly tracks with what I expected; “let’s predict the next 30 innings of a reliever’s ERA” is just impossibly hard.

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Things get a little better if we’re trying to predict underlying process statistics instead of results. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that we want to estimate a pitcher’s xFIP in the second half of the season. xFIP is an incomplete statistic, and that’s by design. By forcing a league-average fly ball per home run rate on each pitcher and ignoring actual home runs allowed, it’s eliminating one of the key sources of small-sample variance. I don’t think xFIP is a great statistic in bigger samples; very clearly, some pitchers are homer-prone and others prevent homers well. But in 30 innings of work, homers are just too noisy.

If we’re trying to predict second-half xFIP, first-half xFIP does a good job. It explains roughly 20% of the variance. Preseason ERA projections are nearly as good, checking in around 15%. First-half ERA and FIP don’t do all that well; while we’re now trying to run correlations with a more stable second-half statistic, they themselves have too much first-half noise to be particularly useful. Still, good pitchers in one half are, on average, good in the next half.

Here’s another way of thinking about it. I took the top 10% of relievers in a given year (I’ll use 2021 in this example because it’s up in my spreadsheet right now), as determined by first-half FIP. They produced an aggregate 2.11 FIP and 2.29 ERA. In other words, they were awesome; the average reliever ERA over that span was 4.19. In the second half, that group put up a 3.49 FIP and a 3.36 ERA. Not bad! For the record, their xFIP was 3.76, but now that we’re aggregating a bunch of pitchers together, I feel the sample is probably large enough that I can stop using xFIP.

Those are good numbers! The top 10% of relievers in the first half of the season were actually really good. By comparison, the bottom 10% of qualifying relievers in the first half were putrid: 5.52 FIP, 4.96 ERA. In the second half, they were still quite bad: 5.09 FIP, 5.55 ERA. See? If you’re a good reliever in the first half, you’re likely to be one in the second half too.

My stats-inclined readers, and probably plenty of others as well, are surely screaming at their screens reading this. There’s a huge problem here: selection bias. The relievers who have great first halves are often just great. Great closers like Josh Hader, Edwin Díaz, Emmanuel Clase, and Ryan Pressly showed up on that list of excellent first-half relievers.

This study isn’t really interested in those guys; the question at hand is whether teams can trade their relievers who came out of relative obscurity to dominate the first half and get value back in the deal. It would be absurd to use Hader as evidence in favor of that. So let’s try something else. I took the top 20% of first-half relief performances and filtered out relievers who had been projected to be at least 20% better than league average before the season. That’s about the cutoff for elite relievers, in my mind, and we only want to look for the guys who ascend to prominence with a good half. You could use a different cutoff and probably get marginally different results, but I’m just spitballing here.

The remaining relievers were pretty good! They had a 2.58 FIP and 2.80 ERA in the first half. How’d they do afterward? They pitched to a 4.13 FIP and 3.86 ERA. In other words, they were scarcely better than league average. For completeness’s sake, I looked at how we’d projected these pitchers before the season, and we had them with an aggregate 4.09 ERA.

Again, let’s go to plain English: Relievers who jump from unremarkable to excellent in the first half of a given year tend to be unremarkable again in the second half of the year. Sure, there’s a correlation between good performance in one time period and good performance in the next. But it’s weak, and plenty of it is driven by pitchers who are excellent to begin with. You shouldn’t read too much into a few months’ data, even if the process statistics in that data are excellent.

There’s one other argument I frequently hear around why some non-contending team’s reliever should fetch a big haul in trade: team control. Imagine having five or six years of elite relief work! Sure, maybe the inherent noise in reliever ERA means it might not pan out this year, but with that many bites at the apple, something will surely stick. If you’re looking for a 2024 example of this, think JoJo Romero, who’s been good for two straight years and won’t reach free agency until after the 2026 season. Two and a half years of control! Imagine all the high leverage innings you could get out of him.

How valuable are those future innings? I took an abstracted look at it. My version of the question is this: Given a good relief performance in one year, what should we expect two years down the line? Mathematically speaking, I looked at the top 20 relievers who pitched 50 innings in a given year and then looked at how that group did two years later. I ended up with three three-year pairs: 2017-2019, 2019-2021, and 2021-2023. The shortened 2020 season meant I didn’t want to use data from that year, so I just worked around it.

The results were roughly what I expected. Nearly half the relievers fell out of the sample; in other words, they pitched 50 or more elite innings in year one, then didn’t even complete 50 innings in year three. The ones who did got meaningfully worse. Their ERA increased by roughly 70 points in the gap years. Their FIP increased by 85 points. They went from being among the best relievers in baseball to being merely very good. And again, that counts a lot of elite relievers. Filtering out those names would make the remaining options look meaningfully worse.

When you put this all together, the facts of the matter look pretty straightforward. Why can’t teams flip their overperforming relievers, particularly those with plenty of team control remaining, for incredible prospects? It’s because the other teams in the league correctly assess the future performance of that reliever as wildly volatile and heavily subject to regression. So feel free to keep asking me if your team can turn Andrew Kittredge or Hunter Harvey or Ryan Walker into a Top 100 prospect. But I’ll keep telling you no.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

90 Comments
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CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago

Ok, but what if we packaged TWO of our newfound, overperforming relievers together? Surely that’s worth the other team’s best three prospects, Mr. smarty pants.

Last edited 2 years ago by CC AFC
EonADSMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I prefer Sweet-Tarts, but Smarties are acceptable pants denizens.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Will it help if I throw in our career 95 wRC+ corner OF who’s riding a .375 BABIP to an amazing first half?

HamelinROY
2 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

How about we also add in our 1st baseman who dominates AAA, who while 29 still has basically all years of team control left? Note that he is out of options because every time we bring him up he fails miserably

Brad JohnsonMember
2 years ago

I dunno, Kittredge could definitely yield a “Top 100” prospect, with the caveat that scouts are telling me there’s never been a larger divergence between public lists and how teams actually value players. I’m unsure if I mean Kittredge might return a incorrectly labelled Top 100 guy or someone who should be on the edge of the Top 100 but hasn’t been publicly noticed.

The irony of this is scouts are citing data as the reason why the public prospect lists suck (their word). Specifically, we’re not using enough of or the right data (not that it’s our fault, we don’t have the best of the data in question). Performance numbers are increasingly irrelevant, especially anything that happens below Double-A. Even stats from the upper minors barely contain signal.

Kittredge specifically was on the path to becoming a great closer before several sojourns on the injury list. He looks like his old self again. So, it’s not like he’s some rando.

Left of Centerfield
2 years ago
Reply to  Brad Johnson

Over the past 4 seasons he has a 2.26 ERA and a 3.32 FIP. That’s good and I’m sure teams would be interested in him. But it’s hardly dominant. And it’s not like he’s somehow been more dominant this year than prior years (2.21 ERA, 2.98 FIP this year).

On top of that, he has limited closing experience (14 career saves), a recent TJ, and is a free agent at the end of the year.

So yeah, top 100? I don’t see it.

frankMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Brad Johnson

“Performance numbers are increasingly irrelevant, especially anything that happens below Double-A. Even stats from the upper minors barely contain signal.” I would like to see evidence to back that up, particularly for hitters. Sure, batting average and RBIs tell us little, but I find it difficult to believe that other performance metrics (Ct%, BB%, GB%, etc.) are meaningless.

SucramRenrutMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  frank

Maybe not meaningless, but you can see how they wouldn’t be very predictive. Look at BB%. It’s logical to think that a top prospect is going to walk more in A ball than their true talent level because opposing pitchers 1) have worse command, and 2) probably want to pitch around the other team’s best guys.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  SucramRenrut

Not to mention the fact that A-ball has RoboUmps.

Low-Minors stats are only notable if they’re bad, IMO.

bookbookMember since 2019
2 years ago

This is ironic to me, while watching the Mariners trade Blake Hunt (an underrated catching prospect) for a reliever who isn’t overperforming.

asb123
2 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

Well, that kind of proves the point, right? The Mariners side of this is the inverse of the type of trade hypothesized in the article: trade an overperforming minor league catcher for a decent reliever with a 2-3 year track record.

catmanwayne
2 years ago
Reply to  asb123

They’ve also needed relievers they can plug in today. Brash is out until middle of next year, Santos is out until mid-late June maybe, Saucedo has been out for a couple of weeks. Aside from Muñoz, they don’t have any super trustworthy options for high leverage innings at the moment. Baumann is just another guy they can put out there and hope he sticks.

96mncMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Yet they cut Tyson Miller.

mattMember since 2023
2 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

What makes Hunt underrated? He is coming off a year he spent at 24 in AA/AAA with 111 wRC+/100 wRC+. Those are very mediocre to project to MLB even as a catcher. This isn’t even the biggest red flag about it, he hit AA in 2021 (briefly), in 2022 in full year he had a 81 wRC+ at AA.

Imo Hunt is typical third catcher depth, nothing stands out outside of the nice draft pick

MikeD
2 years ago
Reply to  matt

His numbers this year, repeating AAA at 25 and in the PCL, don’t seem all that impressive to me. Intriguing, but I wouldn’t be overrating the numbers.

Last edited 2 years ago by MikeD
BreadbakerMember since 2022
2 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

The Orioles obviously aren’t expecting (or even more obviously needing) a likely starting catcher. It sounds like a pretty normal trade of spare parts for spare parts. It would be surprising if we discussed it like the David Arias trade or, the flip side, the Austin Nola trade.

TerryMc
2 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

Dipoto’s history matches the premise of the article. His history of trading away closers at the deadline has typically yielded utility type players and not top prospects. He’s done well with the strategy, but that may be more due to bulk and having a few returns overperform rather than secret sauce evaluation.

Brian547Member since 2019
2 years ago

You mean I cannot trade Mason Miller for Aidan Miller and Andrew Painter/Mick Able??? I swear I read that was a good idea and the A’s would maybe turn it down somewhere else today……

Brad JohnsonMember
2 years ago
Reply to  Brian547

I mean, you probably could trade Mason Miller for Aidan Miller and Mick Abel. You could not get Painter for all the A’s horses and all the A’s men.

jfree
2 years ago
Reply to  Brad Johnson

Trade seems fair to me. One Mason Miller for a Painter AND another Miller.

AlbyMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  jfree

Seems like a Plummer ought to be involved somewhere.

Dan B
2 years ago
Reply to  Alby

Throw in a capable Wainwright and we are on.

HayvesMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  Brian547

mason miller pretty clearly falls out of the scope of this article

carterMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Hayves

I wonder if whoever trades for him (if) what they do with him. My guess would be keep him at relief, and then explore starting again next season.

96mncMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  carter

Zero chance he’d hold up starting. Leave him in the bullpen where he’s as dominant as it gets.

The As have been very careful this season about his usage. No back to back outings. 3 of 4 days.

MikeD
2 years ago
Reply to  Hayves

Does he?

He’s impressive, but he has basically 20 innings as a reliever. I don’t see teams giving up the farm for him.

Last edited 2 years ago by MikeD
marcusthelionMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Hayves

…but NOT the scope of the trade-related puns from the commentariat!
What if we threw in as Chris Archer for a box of baseballs, some peanuts & Cracker Jackson Roman Holiday in Las Vegas?*
* = To be played by Sacramento in tonight’s performance.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Brian547

With the A’s not likely competing in this or the next few years, and Miller looking incredible this season, it seems to me the A’s should try to sell high. Miller does have an extensive injury history so they should get what they can while his value is at its highest.

thaaldermanMember since 2024
2 years ago

While it certainly makes baseball sense for the A’s to sell high on Miller, I don’t know that it makes business sense, at least while he’s still pre-arbitration.

They’re going to need something to draw fans while doing their traveling roadshow act for the next three years, and since it seems unlikely that they’ll be competitive for most or all of that window, selling the man with the world’s fastest fastball might be the best they can do.

catmanwayne
2 years ago
Reply to  thaalderman

The A’s have killed whatever goodwill remained with the few fans they still had by dumping their last good roster, and all of the melodrama surrounding the Vegas move. Keeping Mason Miller just because he sits averages 102 on his heater, regardless of how rare and awesome that may be, isn’t going to help them draw much.

Last edited 2 years ago by catmanwayne
cowdiscipleMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Brian547

I’d be talking to the Orioles about Miller. That seems like a great match.

markakis21
2 years ago

This article makes the Jorge Lopez trade all the more confounding for the Twinks. They gave up a top 100 prospect and a guy who’s been a pretty solid reliever for a pop-up reliever.

I mean as an O’s fan I’ll take it, but it’s odd.

CamdenWarehouseMember since 2018
2 years ago
Reply to  markakis21

I had the same though. Major coup by Elias without considering the value they’ve gotten for Cano.

David Klein
2 years ago
Reply to  markakis21

The Twins 2022 trade deadline moves were unmitigated disasters.

NYYfaninLAAlandMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  markakis21

Who was the Top 100 prospect in that deal? Was Povich that well regarded then, because if so apparently the Twins were correct and the evaluators weren’t. Or is this an example of O’s fans thinking all their prospects are Top 100?
Still a bad deal but deadline trades are made for the short run need.

markakis21
2 years ago

I mean, is it wrong for an O’s fans to look at the prospect list literally on this site and see Povich on the top 100 list?

Even at the time he was considered a next 50 guy, he wasn’t an out of nowhere prospect.

Brad JohnsonMember
2 years ago

Povich wasn’t a public Top 100 at the time, but insiders considered him as either on par or on the same track as other pitchers of that ilk. (If I’m remembering right. The only source I recall clearly was with the Os at the time so maybe that isn’t fair)

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Andrew Kittredge is a poor example. Not that he’d fetch a Top 100 prospect, but he has a significant history as an elite reliever that was merely broken up by TJS, so he does have decent trade value.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
maguroMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

You could maybe get a guy like Richie Palacios for him.

snakestl
2 years ago

You can get a Cole Ragans for an Aroldis Chapman…

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  snakestl

I like how people bring this trade up when someone says “you can’t get a front-line starting prospect for a rental reliever” or (when I say) “teams don’t like to trade good pitching prospects.” At the time of the trade Ragans was a post-prospect with virtually no resemblance to the pitcher he is today. Sometimes guys who are not good prospects turn into very good pitchers.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Also, Chapman isn’t a “pop-up” guy.

He’s Aroldis Chapman.

snakestl
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You can get a Jack Wilson for a Jason Christiansen.

fanofthemanMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

And that’s the part of baseball analysis that’s tough but makes all the difference (and the money): figuring out which guy will beat the odds and make a trade pay off. Same deal with the Hall of Fame- very feels players, ever, project to make the hall early in their careers, or even at the midpoint. Trying to pick the guys who will comes down to figuring out who can beat their projections for the back half of their career.

Broadly, I feel like public analytics brought to light the idea “we can’t bet on every guy to be an outlier” by showing normal aging curves and correlations and such. Now, though, we need to be doing more to look at how we identify the outliers who will beat the odds, not just by chance but by skill.

Brad JohnsonMember
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That’s not entirely true. He looked fantastic in spring training and the Rangers failed to adjust their priors.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

In the past you could get into the FV45 range with a previously anonymous reliever with a lot of team control and an elite performance. Scott Effross and Jorge Lopez are two examples of this. Unfortunately, both of those trades worked out horribly for the team trading them, so it’s entirely possible that teams won’t be willing to do this in the future.

There are also relievers with slightly longer track records with a lot of team control that in the past have gotten a better class of prospect, but I think the days of teams trading Top 100 prospects for Will Smith (the reliever) are probably over.

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think teams are probably looking more at their “stuff” models and whether the reliever has strong record of stuff to go along with the performance. Even then, I’m not sure where the inflection point is for getting a top 100 prospect in return. You are more likely to get back a utility guy.

willl
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Just last July, you could do that.

Jordan Hicks, famously inconsistent, netted the Cardinals Sem Robberse (45 FV) AND Adam Kloffenstein (40 FV).

Kendall Graveman, another famously inconsistent reliever, netted the White Sox recent top 100 prospect, albeit demoted to a 40+ FV, Korey Lee.

David Robertson, yet again another inconsistent (at least in recent years) reliever, netted the Mets Marco Vargas, a 45+ FV prospect, AND Ronald Hernandez (40 FV)

But that’s not all…

Michael Lorenzen, perhaps the best example of 2023’s “newfound reliever”, yielded Hao-Yu Lee (40+ FV).

Paul Sewald, another flash in the pan in 2023, got 40FV, Ryan Bliss and Dominic Canzone (40 FV), plus a major league role player in Rojas.

Pierce Johnson netted the Rockies Victor Vodnik (40 FV).

Scott Barlow yielded Henry Williams (40 FV).

Sam Moll netted Joe Boyle (40 FV).

Ryan Weathers got Sean Reynolds (40 FV).

That was just the “newfound relievers” traded at last year’s trade deadline. So excuse me if I don’t find these questions on reliever return so laughable, especially when guys like Kittredge and Harvey have longer track records of success and more team control than nearly every player mentioned above.

Major league teams very clearly do value reliever rentals as there were at least 9 trades for 40 FV prospects or better made for these seemingly valueless role players.

markakis21
2 years ago
Reply to  willl

A 40 FV is not what I’d consider a “shiny prospect”

Lorenzen was not a reliever, he was a starter

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  markakis21

Eh – not all 40 FVs are created equal, to be fair.

Brad JohnsonMember
2 years ago
Reply to  willl

I take exception to Sewald being labeled a “flash in the pan.” He’s been a mid-tier closer for years.

MikeSMember since 2020
2 years ago

Somebody once told me that any pitcher can be dominant for a 40 inning stretch. If you look closely at that number, it means a Pitcher of the Month award for a starter, but it’s 2/3 of a season for most relievers.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Hell, Montgomery Brewster could get any team out for three innings. Any team!

Last edited 2 years ago by HappyFunBall
sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

I’m trying to figure out who Ben is referring to aside from the names mentioned in the article. I’ve come up with a non-exhaustive list of pitchers who may fit this description:

Dylan Floro (WSN)
Kyle Finnegan (WSN)
Derek Law (WSN)

Andrew Kittredge (STL)
JoJo Romero (STL)

Declan Cronin (MIA)
Bryan Hoeing (MIA)

Buck Farmer (CIN)

Hunter Strickland (LAA)

Austin Adams (OAK)

Tayler Scott (HOU)

Yimi Garcia (TOR)

Jordan Leasure (CHW)

I think Hunter Harvey and Nick Martinez have a long enough track record so they might not fit. Mason Miller doesn’t have a track record but is clearly not in this category at all.

Anyone I missed? All of these guys should be of interest on the trade market but aren’t going to get big hauls in return.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I’d be pretty comfortable trading a 50 FV for Harvey, at this point – he’s pretty firmly established himself as a 1.5+ WAR reliever since joining the Nats.

PC1970Member since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Jason Foley?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Foley is another good example of that archetype. For some reason I thought the Tigers still had a winning record (I was wrong).

LagomMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You could throw Fernando Cruz in there

scottsjunk1981Member since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I know you’re not probably saying otherwise, but a lot of those guys have long track records as solid high-leverage relievers. They just aren’t elite, despite some gaudy recent stats.

So while I agree they won’t earn huge hauls on their own, they’ll still have a pretty robust market among contenders and will likely return legit prospects. A 45 and a 40, or something like that.

Petey BienelMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m also not sure Dylan Floro fits with the newly hot reliever model as much as a steady middle to set up reliever who is reverting to his long term patterns after some freaky numbers last year. Sure, throw out the ERA, zero homers, etc when evaluating this year, but by the same token, throw out the .401 BABIP last year. Fastball is down from 2018-2023, as are the Ks, but the GB rate is right in line with career averages, and his xFIP and FIP are in the middle of his 2020-2023 rates and SIERA is right on career average. He’s a little old, but maybe the fairest thing is he doesn’t show much regression this year. I would not expect a high level prospect, but he’ll be a useful arm to thicken a contender’s bullpen.

tomerafan
2 years ago

You’re making two distinct arguments in this article – that first half reliever performance isn’t necessarily predictive (which I agree with) and that teams aren’t willing to trade good prospects for relievers (which I’m not sure you’ve presented much data to quantify).

The headline references a “shiny prospect.” (And I fully realize you may not have written the headline!) Relivers get traded for shiny prospects (complex, low-A, high A) all the time. I’d be interested to know whether the actual FV of prospects traded for relivers is higher or lower than the actual FV of prospects traded for other types of players. Marco Vargas was a shiny prospect last year. That the Mets got Vargas *and* another prospect for David Robertson was a haul of a deal. The first half of your premise applies – Robertson collapsed with the Marlins post-trade. But the second half of your premise… eh, I am not sure. The Mets are thrilled to have Marco Vargas in their system.

Then in the body you talk about a “prospect haul.” I agree with you that it’s unrealistic to expect a prospect haul for a reliever that isn’t peak-performance, reliable and durable. Reliever performance over long periods of time is simply so heavily clustered around a reasonable range, with high short-term variations. Relievers are fungible. Top prospects are not.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

David Robertson isn’t a “newfound reliever.”

He is(/was) a #ProvenCloser, falling into the category just below the likes of Hader that Ben explicitly cites as being outside the scope of this discussion.

tomerafan
2 years ago

Robertson was not “newfound.” But he was 38, and prior to his Mets resurgence in 2022 he hadn’t been a full-time closer in over 5 years. But he was well outpitching his track record and his surface stats, was an obvious regression candidate, and regressed like hell with the Marlins.

And the Marlins overpaid for him.

So, no, not newfound. But let’s not put 38 year old David Robertson with around 40 saves over the past five seasons (and no more than 22 in a single season over that timespan) anywhere NEAR the Hader tier of closers. That’s just ludicrous.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

He had 20 saves for the Cubs and Phillies the year before, and was damn good to boot!

He’s also been good this year.

Certainly not a Hader-level “Relief Ace,” but very much in the next tier, alongside guys like Chapman and Kimbrel.

(That said, the Marlins absolutely overpaid, but for an understandable reason)

Shalesh
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Agree. Ben has made the point before that relievers are normally a good buy in Free Agency because they require short-term deals and tend to go for more in trade at the ASB than hot bats on similar contracts.

So, even if bats bought on the FA market on short-term deals might (though might not) be more stable than relievers, they tend to return less than relievers do at trade time.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Short term relievers are a good buy because they cost nothing (only cash) and sometimes fetch something in trade. Not because they fetch much, mind you, but more than mere cash

willl
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

I posted a list above of a bunch of trades of mediocre relievers having good seasons in just 2023 alone. Clearly teams are willing to part with shiny prospects for these players.

You bet the Mets are happy with their trade, and the White Sox flipping a perma-broken Kendall Graveman for Korey Lee. Heck, even Canzone alone has produced more WAR than Sewald since they were traded for each other.

Are relievers going to yield top 100 prospects? No. But apparently neither do actual good batters, like Jeimar Candelario.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
2 years ago

Friedman will be in the HoF as an exec I imagine, and rightfully so, but he traded Yordan Alvarez for Josh Fields, so, there’s always that

jreyn24Member since 2025
2 years ago

What’s the opposite of a broken clock being right twice a day?

David Klein
2 years ago

What if the Mets are out of it by July 30th(sure looks like they’ll be), what would they get for Reed Garrett? He’s been almost unhittable for a short time and is 31 but has five years of control. I’m not saying they’d get a top 100 prospect but it’d be interesting to see what’d they’d get.

AlbyMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

That’s where I think the premise of the article is a bit narrow. You can get an interesting prospect for a pop-up reliever, just not a true Top 100 guy (keeping in mind that 100 is an arbitrary cutoff point; the true dropoff in talent usually comes somewhere in the top half of the list).

LaBellaVitaMember since 2018🏆 MVP
2 years ago

How does Dan Sz’s combination of xERA with ERA from the first half work in predicting the ERA or xERA in the second half for relievers? I suspect it still is a situation where the error bars are too large because of the small sample, but it might be a better r-squared value.

96mncMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  LaBellaVita

This.

Ashburn Alley
2 years ago

Someone needs to have Jim Bowden of The Athletic read this since he proposed Phillies would need to send Aidan Miller and Andrew Painter to As to get half year wonder Mason Miller.

David Klein
2 years ago
Reply to  Ashburn Alley

How that guy continues to be gainfully employed in the baseball media I’ll never know.

Brian547Member since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Ashburn Alley

lol. This was exactly my ref from above and I got told that the trade was reasonable. I too thought Bowden’s suggestion was crazy.

mattMember since 2023
2 years ago
Reply to  Ashburn Alley

I’m not sure either side would say yes to that

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  matt

Ya it comes down to which of Miller or Painter you think will pitch more

PhilMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  matt

Obviously the A’s say no. Based on their recent trading history, it will be a three team deal with the Phillies getting Mason Miller, the other team gers Aidan Miller and another good prospect and the A’s get 5 guys who all have utility infielder or 5th starter ceiling but are already in AAA so are major league ready.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Ashburn Alley

Dude is a far better hot take machine than he ever was an executive

catmanwayne
2 years ago

I’d still always trade those types of relievers for as much as I can get from another team. Just as quickly as they come out of nowhere, those pop-up relievers can flame out. It’s better to get something at least sort of interesting out of them than to wait until they crater/get injured and suddenly be worth nothing.

South DetroitMember since 2020
2 years ago

Was looking forward to all the Miller references as I had the benefit of reading the article after he laid a big egg today…thus reinforcing the risk of small sample relief excellence

Dan B
2 years ago

There is a really fun threshold question here which I think you aren’t covering. Consider, the Devin Williams. By the end of 2020 he’d thrown 40 MLB innings, and they were mediocre (2019) or orgasmic (2020). At this point, he’s in the Hunter Harvey zone.

How many of his splendiferous 2021 innings do we need to see before the trade conversation turns from “tell ’em they’re dreaming” to “at least 1 top 100 prospect”. I think maybe 20? Is 50 elite innings the threshold where we buy hard on someone? Does a smart team enter the bidding at 35?

So, while this was an educational piece and I enjoyed it, I think the more interesting question is “How many elite Hunter Harvey innings does it take for us to take him seriously?”

jason shureMember since 2017
2 years ago

Cade Povich and Yennier Cano have entered the chat

South DetroitMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  jason shure

That’s a good one, but was he top 100 at time of trade?

jason shureMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  South Detroit

Agreed, neither was that highly ranked back then.

Sandy Kazmir
2 years ago

Too bad Richie Palacios wasn’t a highly regarded prospect.

v2miccaMember since 2016
2 years ago

I blame the Cubs and Yankees for most of this nonsense. The Cubs gave the Yankees a package that included Gleyber Torres for two months of Aroldis Chapman, and ever since every fanbase is convinced that their top reliever is worth a haul.

catmanwayne
2 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

Edwin Diaz brought back the Mariners Kelenic, Justin Dunn, and Gerson Bautista from the Mets after 2018. Kelenic and Dunn were top 100 prospects at the time (with Kelenic making it to the top 10 on every list before his call up!), and Bautista was an interesting young reliever. Granted, Diaz had 4 years of control remaining while Chapman was a pure rental. However, elite back end relievers will always be a hot commodity on the trade market.

theparkstrikersMember since 2016
2 years ago

If it makes you feel any better, my fantasy team’s inbox is filled with similar trade proposals.