On Caring for One Another
I’d like to beg your indulgence to reflect on community. Specifically, our community. Our community here at FanGraphs, sure, but the community of people who care about the rigorous analysis of baseball, too. Communities are home to all kinds of folks engaged in different bits of sin and kindness, all experiencing different stakes. We’re knit together by our sins and our kindnesses, sometimes quite uncomfortably. One such sin is the everyday kind, the sort of casual meanness and lack of care we all wade through all the time. It’s a smaller kind, but we still find ourselves altered by it. I suppose you’ll have to forgive me for worrying on such things; I know we can be suspicious of feelings around here. But don’t fret. There’s another bit of sin, too, a baseball sin.
Earlier this month, Sheryl Ring published a piece called “Can Major League Baseball Legally Exclude a Woman?” The piece considered whether the exclusion of women from baseball, both as players and umpires, was legally permissible under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Specifically, Sheryl, while acknowledging that it wouldn’t be an easy case to make, argued that being male was not a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification for playing Major League Baseball and that the failure to scout, much less hire, women could potentially violate Title VII.
The response in the comments was resoundingly negative. That isn’t in itself a bad thing. It wasn’t a perfect piece, though what piece is? We here like debate. We don’t always get things right, or express our ideas as well as we ought to. Our job as writers is to convince you or move you or both. The issue isn’t that the comments were critical. Rather, what struck me was how quickly some of the voices escalated, from skepticism to certainty to what read, at least to me, as a barely repressed anger that other commenters seemed less sure and more open, that the question had been posed at all.
Communities fight. Communities committed to finding right answers may fight more — and harder — than most. For years, we fought others, fought against bunts and batting average, but we mostly won. Now the lines are less clear; the field is muddy and murky and full of fog. We’re still a community, but we’re changing. We’re having to make room for new folks in our digital neighborhood. But as strangers, unburdened by the potential chance encounter at the corner store, we have an odd relationship with the idea of care. The literal distance between us has resulted in a high tolerance for gruffness; I never have to see my barbs land, never have to watch your face color with anger or embarrassment. I am free to forget your stakes, and you are free to forget mine.
But I wish we would remember them. The idea of a woman playing in Major League Baseball means something to me. It stirs something. I long for it, in a way that is embarrassing to talk about in my place of work, which this is, but those are my stakes. They aren’t the only stakes I have, but they’re important ones. I suspect seeing someone who looks like me play the game will make me feel that I belong in a way I don’t quite now. I want it to be real, even as I’m not sure it ever will be.
Others may not have liked the piece or found it convincing. Perhaps the post ought to have lingered longer on the institutional barriers girls and women face when playing baseball. Maybe certain readers thought it didn’t express adequate appreciation of the great distance we have to close. But they could have been nicer about it; they could have shown greater care. They could have appreciated that what means very little to them means a great deal to me and mine, and tempered not their criticism but their ire. They could have thought for a moment about what else we might worry that ire is meant to say: that we are not welcome. They could have remembered our stakes, as members of their community.
That was the everyday sin, the sin of disrespect and unfeeling. It is what makes our community less than perfect and less than perfectly welcoming. It is troubling, this lack of care. I’ve worried every day since then who we might have driven away, who might only ever lurk at the edges of the comments, blistered by those who think the only means by which to disagree is to trample. To ignore others’ stakes.
The baseball sin was the certainty.
Because of course, we don’t know if a woman can play in Major League Baseball. We don’t know! I don’t know, and neither do they, the doubters, and what struck me as odd in the reaction to the piece was all the knowing folks saw fit to do, all the sureness. We should be wary of certainty. Not because it is never earned or ever right, but because it represents a closing off: of possibility, of new discovery, of imagination. Over and over and over again, the comments filled with calls to produce a woman, just one woman, any woman, who was ready now, right now, for entry into a major-league system, into a major-league game. And of course, we can produce no such woman. If we could, we’d be writing that story.
But they should have given us a little credit; that’s a small act of care, too. We can’t produce a major leaguer. We never claimed we could. All we’ve ever claimed to be able to produce is a detailed inventory of the barriers, institutional and cultural, which make it so hard for girls to play baseball and keep playing it. In answer to the claim that women can’t play competitively against men in basketball and hockey and tennis, what we seek to point out is that baseball is importantly different than those sports. We can point out the aggressive funneling of girls into softball. We remind them that there simply has not been enough time or effort or resource devoted to girls’ and women’s baseball for us to know. We must also admit, as those affording uncertainty its proper place, that the answer may well be that us women can’t play with the boys, and that a separate league is the answer. We admit that, even though it stings. We are not unreasonable.
I am glad that we know so much more about baseball now than we did when Bill James and his ilk were getting their start. But I sometimes envy them their era. With all that testing and invention, they had to sit with their uncertainty, unable to rush to the end. I wonder if they weren’t more comfortable with that uncertainty than we seem to be now. It’s a shame, because settling into the unknown, holding it close, requires you to exercise your imagination. We don’t say enough about what a kindness imagination is, the room it gives to those who haven’t had it before. It animates all the data collection, all that testing. And isn’t that what this community used, in the beginning of all its fighting? Wasn’t that the inspiration behind our rigor, animating statistics and strategies that hadn’t been invented yet? That spark! It let them see beyond what they knew for sure.
I started by begging your indulgence. I like when writers ask favors of their audience; if used to proper effect, it makes a text feel a bit more lived in, as if you and I are sitting next to one another at a bar, enjoying a drink together, and I am about to tell you a long story. To beg your indulgence is to give you a sense that we are about to depart from our usually scheduled programming; perhaps things are about to get a little messy, or complicated. Perhaps I am about to ask you to be momentarily uncomfortable.
The problem with asking is it assumes that you are willing to accept your companion’s answer. I suppose I am, on some level. After all, whether it is explicitly stated or not, every act of writing carries with it the question of, “Will you please read this?”, a question we alter (“Will you please keep reading this?”) then repeat over and over, paragraph to paragraph, until you, the reader, get to the end, or turn your attention to something else.
Except sometimes, it just won’t do to ask. Before, I begged your indulgence, or at least your forgiveness, and I meant it, but I won’t ask now. A third person has joined our party, a regular not content with shouting from across the room. He sidles up to the bar, full of false certainty, and refuses us the generosity of exercising his imagination. He talks over me. But I will not quiver.
In light of this rude guest, I will not ask a question. Rather, I will grab this interloper’s beer right out of his hand, a bit rude myself I suppose, and make a statement: we aren’t going anywhere. We women, us not-men for whom the idea of a woman in Major League Baseball means so much. There’s no turning us out of the community. We’ve been let in; we’ve forced our way here. We watch this game, spend our time and treasure and summers on it, teach our daughters and nieces and friends its moves and details. We catalogue its faces. We study it and analyze it and quantify it. We report on it. We sometimes announce it, and we always love it.
What’s more, we are playing it. Some of us are getting pretty good. And when we see little girls throw a ball around, when we see one more steely-eyed pip, another little one who doesn’t yet know what to do with her limbs, but does know that whatever it will be, it will be baseball, baseball over all other games, when we see that, we can imagine a great many things. We’re back at the beginning, holding close our uncertainty. And somewhere between what we know, and what we’ve yet to prove impossible, we can see her. The first one.
We can see that day she’ll make the majors. We hear the PA crackle. The details shift, as the details in dreams often do. One day, her hair is pulled back in a ponytail; the next day, it’s a short bob, tucked behind her ears. Her nose, her lips, her cheekbones, they move, scaffolding that holds up skin of variable hues, offset by different colored eyes. She could come from anywhere, from all sorts of people. But we can see her.
And that’s what he’s discounted, this rude fellow at the bar, now eating my fries without asking. In his haste to fill comment box after comment box and assert expertise I doubt he has, he’s forgotten that spark. Perhaps it ought to make him a little nervous. Along with hard work and education, support and kindness, guile and patience and dumb luck, along with all those things, we’ve gotten through our whole lives on imagination. It’s what we’ve survived on. Not just in baseball, but everywhere in the world. In moments and stretches of years that are good, fine, and terrible. The imagination to think we might be seen, might be thought serious, might be thought of at all. That we might one day be safe, be something.
Our minds have lifted us into rooms and conversations we’ve been told aren’t for us. We make statements now. Not with the rising sing-song of a false question, not with a desire to avoid bothering anyone, but with a purpose. With demands. We’ve imagined it until parts have come true, emboldening us to imagine more. We did all that because of our smarts, and our friends, and an increasingly not-bad world, but animating it all has been imagination. Imagination that lets us see her. Imagination that will always outlast that rude fellow.
Our community is a weird, happy little place much of the time. It’s so nice to rest a bit after fighting for so long. We’ve had great, demanding, exacting debates. We’ve made room in the neighborhood; we’ve exchanged waves at the corner store. But we still commit our sins; someone rushes in from across the bar. We forget each other’s stakes, don’t respect them. We’ve assumed those stakes are the same all the time, for everyone; we’ve failed to practice care, to embrace our uncertainty.
It’ll be work. It’ll mean letting in a bit of sentiment. Not in the way of RBI or bunting, but as feeling for each other. I’d like to ask us to try, in this community of ours. I suspect trying is part of care, too.
Meg is the editor-in-chief of FanGraphs and the co-host of Effectively Wild. Prior to joining FanGraphs, her work appeared at Baseball Prospectus, Lookout Landing, and Just A Bit Outside. You can follow her on Bluesky @megrowler.fangraphs.com.
Why would people have a problem with a woman playing in MLB?
There are lots of “Why would people have a problem with ____?” questions out there that stir up a hefty amount of unexpected emotion against them. We live in a great big world peopled by a great deal of unhappy campers.
I don’t think many people do. The internet, confident in its own self knowledge, often with good reason, is simply dismissive. Because women lack the power, size, and speed of men, as a rule, the notion is dismissed out of hand. As a result, the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. That is, the people dismissing the idea of a big league woman player thereby dismiss everything else; such as the institutional gendering of some sports, like field hockey, baseball, and so on, as not important, because the end goal of the writer is to see a pro woman baseball player, which is rationally considered unlikely, but isn’t a known quantity.
Nobody really cares, they’re just being buttheads.
You make some good points, funkmon, but I take issue with this: “Because women lack the power, size, and speed of men, as a rule…” This is not wrong, per say, but it’s not exactly correct, either. We could see a current MLB player come out as a trans woman tomorrow, and this whole “unlikelyhood due to physical constraints” arguement goes right out the window. We simply don’t have data on the future of gender identity. So when we talk about men vs. women, are we talking about biological sex (observable, but not entirely clear-cut categories) or gender (correlated with sex but ultimately entirely invented, changeable, and ever-shifting?) I, personally, don’t care what my favorite player’s genitals look like. I feel all this talk of physical characteristics of men vs women is distracting and maybe even irrelvant to the more important lessons we can learn from this debate. Thanks for writing this, Meg! I finally signed up for fangraphs after all these years in order to join this important conversation!
Even thou you have engaged in a form of reductio ad absurdum I’m going to address the difficult topic anyway.
In general woman are smaller in stature and not as powerful as men, (I’ve never read anything to indicate the female gender is slower then male) this is due to the differences between estrogen and testosterone. Testosterone is responsible for bulk muscle mass as well as a denser bone structure, when a trans gender woman introduces estrogen and eliminates testosterone her bones become more porous and brittle and her stature becomes “daintier” for lack of better word. A woman that transitioned from being a male to a female might be the ones that make the worst ball players because they have to take synthetic estrogen which magnifies the affect both physically and mentally.
Skill-wise could a female play in MLB? I see no reason why not, I have played baseball/softball with many woman over the years, both with and against and I have been giving no reason to think that the ratio of good/great/bad players between genders aren’t equal. Physically I also see no reason to believe woman cant play at the highest level in any position. I wonder about longevity and injury concerns due to the smaller muscle mass and liter bone density but that’s certainly no reason for exclusion.
I understand that for a small group of people – a very loud minority – this is about if your sex organs tangle or not but for the majority this argument is really about the product. Would the female presence raise the product or lower it? As far as I can tell every time baseball integrates another group the product gets better, you name it, whether it be integration of African, Asian, Cuban, Dominican etc… the product got better so it goes to reason that more integration would provide a better product.
I agree with your what you said about the “product” of MLB baseball getting better with higher levels of integration. Great point! And obviously any potential integration would need to be profitable or else it simply won’t happen, that’s reality.
But in regards to the conversation about trans women playing baseball, your speculation about estrogen negatively effecting performance ignores the fact that plenty of trans people don’t take hormones. Many do, but many don’t. It’s not like it’s some sort of requirement. One can transition male to female without surgery or hormone treatments. You can’t just dismiss the idea out of hand.
Yes in fact in this context taking hormones and a surgery is a significant difference because otherwise your talking about a man that socially identifies as female but is otherwise completely male in all aspect that matter for physical challenges, we called these cross-dressers.
You damn well know exactly what I’m saying and introducing the “identifies as” argument muddies the waters, I don’t give a crap how people identify, male, female identify as a hot pink donkey for all I care but if you have all the characteristics physically as a man then its a man or the physical equal of playing which isn’t the argument and you know it.
This is just a continuation of you’re reductio ad absurdum.
Yes, I do know what you’re saying. Trans people existing in the world complicates your understanding of what it means to be a man or a woman. I’m sorry, but the waters are muddy and they always have been. I’m honestly not trying to be petty or to derail the conversation here. It seems like you and I are coming from different perspectives on this. I happen to know a bunch of trans people personally, and so, to me, totally dismissing their relevance to this conversation — will a woman ever play in the mlb– seems pretty silly. I’m sorry that the idea really seems that absurd to you.
No in fact I have a very strong understanding of transgender for personal reasons that are non of your business but it does non the less give me a certain amount of intellect on the topic. What you are doing is muddying the waters of understanding by using an umbrella term to satisfy an argument. The term “Transgender” is an umbrella term these days however it used to simply mean someone that was transitioning in gender from male to female and visa versa and men or woman that dressed like the opposite sex were cross-dressers. The issue is that this term became a term of inclusion, now transgender means inclusion of anyone that isn’t cisgender, so for this exercise I’m using the term transgender wrong I suppose and using it with its historical meaning.
If you’re saying that a transgender person that isn’t doing sexual reassignment surgery and isn’t taking hormones but was born and assigned the sex of male but never really felt that they are (regardless of predetermined physical attributes) and at some point came to the conclusion that they wanted to live life as a female and made it to MLB? That’s what it sounds like you’re saying and if so yeah I completely agree that that woman would likely be the first. What I’m saying which I thought was very clear even if I did use a retired term to simplify it is that if a person born of the male gender with male genitalia at some point came to the conclusion that they are of the female gender AND decided that they were going to go through with all of the surgeries necessary and was taking estrogen, that particular female would have a very hard time because estrogen does a number on the bones.
A female baseball player that was born female I see no reason she can’t make it to MLB given the same opportunities as her male counterparts.
Okay, thanks for the more detailed explanation. And yes, your particular usage of the term transgender (well, that and the fact that you were calling my argument reductive and absurd) definitely was what I was reacting against. I appreciate the thoughtful response, and it makes more sense to me within the context you just provided.
It isn’t just a strength thing, women are slower than men, too. According to the other thread, male high school sprinters regularly beat women’s world records. Probably not an issue if she’s a pitcher, but it’s one more hurdle for female position players to contend with.
There’s a lot of interesting data in the comments of the other post, I recommend reading at least a bit of it to see where people are coming from on this.
“I’ve never read anything to indicate the female gender is slower then male)”
One google search away:
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22women.html
To any man (or woman) who has ever said that women can’t play major-league baseball because they don’t have the arm strength, the power, or the athleticism, RA Dickey says hello.
There’s gotta be an athletic Serena Williams-type build that could hold down a solid SS or something.
Serena Williams is a good example. Everyone would agree that she’s about as good as it gets in her sport. She’s the top of the line, no doubt, and has been for quite some time.
And yet even she, in her greatness, cannot compete against the top several hundred men in tennis. This is why I have a tough time seeing a woman in the MLB, and this is why they’re talking about the Civil Rights Act instead of showing us the woman who is qualified and who hasn’t gotten the chance.
If there was a woman out there as good at baseball as say, Josh Harrison, she’d already be in the majors. And I’d be fine with that, but just don’t try to force it through the legal system.
That’s definitely true, but I wonder about how far down the list of professional male tennis players you’d have to go before you find someone Serena could beat.
If you include the minor leagues, there are thousands upon thousands of professional baseball players. If you expand the pool of tennis players to that size, it’s not unreasonable to think Serena could beat quite a few of them.
If tennis were set up like the major leagues, I think Serena could be among the top 700 players or so, meaning she could make a major league roster. It’s even more likely she could play on a minor league club.
“If tennis were set up like the major leagues, I think Serena could be among the top 700 players or so, meaning she could make a major league roster. It’s even more likely she could play on a minor league club.”
I think that’s dubious as a statistical matter, because the rewards are very slim for putting in the work simply to peak at #200 or worse in world tennis rankings (for either men or women). The distribution of prize money in tennis is very top heavy on both the men’s and women’s tours – see http://www.protennislive.com/posting/ramr/current_prize.pdf and YTD money rankings through about a quarter of the year at http://www.protennislive.com/posting/ramr/current_prize.pdf . At #200 in the rankings, a tennis player probably isn’t even making any sort of living on the tour after considering the cost of travel and coaching. He certainly isn’t making the living of an MLB player who accumulates even a couple years of minimum salary service time in the majors, which means a bit over $1 million in pre-tax pay plus vesting in the MLB pension plan (at 43 days of MLB service time) and vesting in lifetime health benefits (at 1 day of MLB service time).
Said a bit differently, there’s quite likely a tail of a few thousand men who conceivably could have worked their way up to a ranking in the mid-hundreds but gave up that path because the financial rewards aren’t that great unless a player can peak at something like top 50 in the world.
Dickey had an 85 MPH fastball. You’d have been better off citing Tim Wakefield and his mid-70s fastball.
RA Dickey did not throw an 85 mph fastball last year (trust me), and he pitched effectively in the majors. Aren’t some women in professional leagues already throwing fastballs in the low to mid 80s ,anyway?
MLB would do anything to make it happen – it would be nothing but good press and lots of $$$. What team wouldn’t want all of the positive press that came with it? Speaking out against it would be taboo – I can only imagine what we would label the folks against it. I am as much of a traditionalist as there is and I can’t think of a reason why I would be against it. If I stood to profit form it, then I would want it even more. I think the press would be 100% positive. Anyone with any interest in women’s rights would support it.
Admittedly, I have no idea what we are actually talking about. I didn’t read the article to which this refers beyond a few paragraphs and I certainly didn’t pour through the comments. Perhaps they thought it was decisive – an us vs them mentality. Your last few paragraphs certainly ring of that. I don’t care to fight, but it is decisive language and it is going to upset some people. Was that a theme in the original article?
Thanks all for the insightful replies… as usual. There is something impressive about that many down votes without a single reply.
I assume that the down votes are mostly just a reaction to you being critical of the author ‘s response while admitting you haven’t even read the whole article to which she was responding.
I doubt they are that well thought out. Being critical gets down votes all by itself. This article doesn’t have a lot to do with the other article. The first four and last paragraphs are, but beyond that this is a stand alone piece filled with divisive language and ideology.
I can tell you that I didn’t see your original comment until now, but you likely got the down votes without a response because the article broke everything down perfectly and you dismissed it’s value despite admittedly having never read the original article, so some people probably didn’t feel like you deserved a response.
And your most recent response suggests you still don’t get it. You continue to be insulting, continue to miss the point, and you admit you’re proud of the downvotes. I can think of far better things to take pride in than that.
No, you got downvoted because this piece is a sheer appeal to emotion. Any attempt to criticize it on rational grounds will thus be hated, because that’s not the approach it was written from.
It’s not. It’s about the tone; debating respectfully, which wasn’t happening.
There is literally not one person in either of these comment threads saying that women shouldn’t play in MLB. Every single one of us supports the possibility.
I dare Fangraphs to run a poll tomorrow asking that question. 95% of the respondents will answer “Yes, it is okay to have women in baseball,” and the only reason I’m hedging and saying it wouldn’t be 99% is I’m adjusting for the Lizardman Constant.
The problem seems to arise when you use results and statistics to analyze whether women could actually COMPETE in MLB, which is apparently a sacred cow, and will thus get you downvoted deep red, just as this comment will be.
seems like you and a bunch of other people didn’t read the original article correctly, and instead are fighting various phantoms like ‘feminist entryism’.
don’t give yourself too much credit, a simple exercise of reading better will do.
I guess I didn’t read it “correctly,” but I certainly read the article about these independent female ballplayers.
And I read the quotes about how great they are from a contributor to FG’s sister site.
And then I read the comments that cited the players’ stats, which were awful among any metric you want to look at, and would never draw an eyebrow from any scout in the league.
And that’s when I saw how dishonest the original article was.
What exactly do you think I missed?
I know two women well who are in the upper 0.001% of potential female baseball players. They both started for NCAA 1A softball teams, at two universities that every college baseball fan well knows the names of. They were both all-stars. Neither one of them could ever possibly compete for an MLB spot.
And MLB spots come after a long apprenticeship in high school baseball, the lower minors, and the upper minors … two of which lack the revenue resources to provide adequate dressing facilities and training care (without the spectre of what has happened in US Gymnastics). Without the opportunity to play against guys from a very early age, MLB as a player becomes an astronomical longshot for anyone, not just women.
Now umpiring … that would benefit from the female perspective on human relations: listen, reason, listen again, then rule. That’s pretty rare for what we have seen in dark blue in all my life watching baseball.
Both paths should be open. But one is nigh unto impossible.
you missed the point of a legal analysis on a hypothetical
Real women can’t compete in MLB. Fact. But maybe some man who has decided that he is mentally a woman could.
If you think that there’s no way a woman could throw a devastating 65 mile-per-hour knuckleball, then you’re unequivocally wrong. And if a woman could throw a devastating 65 mph knuckleball, then there’s is no question whether a woman could actually COMPETE in MLB. The same thing probably goes for a speedy, slap hitting second baseman in the Dee Gordon mold. There’s every reason to think that physiological barriers related to gender are not, in and of themselves, enough to prevent a woman from being a successful major-leaguer. This is patently true, IMHO.
Institutional, systemic, and developmental barriers are another matter entirely, but if physiology alone is not enough to prevent a woman from making the majors, then it’s necessarily true that a woman, given the right opportunities and development, could become a competent major-league player.
I didn’t read the comments in the earlier article to which Meg is referring, but it sounds as if many of the commenters failed to realize that deficits in strength and athleticism are not fatal for a female who aspires major-league ballplayer in the same way they might be in basketball or football.
The commenters in the other thread discussed both the “slap-hitting 2Ber” and the knuckleballer in significant detail, actually, and made a strong case that the physiological barriers alone are enough to prevent a woman from making AA, let alone the majors.
Are they 100% right? I don’t know, but they brought a lot of interesting facts to the table, which was enough to rile Meg into spending six pages scolding us for being too certain about anything, oh and by the way SHE’S certain you’re wrong, bigots.
The facts they brought to the table weren’t based on female physiology. Or they were bogus facts. I can’t imagine there would be any real debate about whether a woman has the strength, endurance, etc. to throw a major-league-quality knuckleball.
Thank you. I was late to read Ring’s article, and enjoyed it and learned a lot from it, made me think. Then I read the comments and didn’t recognize the generally good-hearted FG community in which I’ve mostly lurked for so many years. We can be better, and I’ll try to do my part to show up more frequently in order to promote more constructive dialogue.
Thanks again.
Yep, agree that it’s important to contribute productively, as sometimes I think it’s a vocal minority ruining it for most everyone else.
Somewhat related, I just noticed the “flag” option for comments and am glad FG has included this. I’ve at times wished for a way rather than down votes to have some type of accountable commenting system for ad-hominem attacks. Not because the authors commenters, etc can’t “take it” (as online tough guys will claim when challenged), but rather it discourages open and new perspectives. I’d wonder why I’d bother if that was something that came with the territory for writing about baseball perspectives.
Good job Meg and hope this promotes a stronger and robust community.
The flag option is great….except that it can potentially be abused by some of the same trolls that would do the ad-hominem attacks.
I should know.
Until February, I posted here freely and without incident for about five years. Yet for some reason (I never provoked anyone, and try to avoid threads that are dominated by screaming attacks), I have had my access to posting revoked – every time I try to post, I am greeted with “Comment awaiting moderation”, but never actually see my comments posted.
So, while I am able to, I will be posting comments under this newly created account. If this account gets banned as well, I’ll have to leave Fangraphs altogether.
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There were a bunch of French playwrights after the War who sought to stir up emotions with what they called the ‘Theatre of the Absurd’. Ridiculous stuff on stage that often got lots of wild reactions from the audience.
To people who truly appreciate the strength, speed, and skill required for The Show, the notion of a woman playing MLB for real (not as a stunt like the dwarf who drew a four-pitch walk for the White Sox) is, well, absurd.
Ring’s piece was meant to be provocative. It succeeded. I for one won’t criticise people’s visceral reactions if they are provoked. We are who we are.
wow
Pretty much. The last article got clicks and comments and activity, and surely this one will devolve into the same kind of thing. If it gets fangraphs clicks and money I don’t really care and I’ll enjoy it as long as its around as a website, but it’s a dumb topic to spend much time thinking about.
But, to be fair, I’ve read plenty of articles about dumb topics (and thought about dumb topics myself) all related to baseball so I guess I shouldn’t criticize.
End of the day, my prediction is that a female will never play in the MLB, nor the NFL, NBA, or NHL, barring a legal requirement that it happen in some awful dystopian future. The physical disadvantages are too great.
Lo and behold, not even 24 hours later, over 250 comments. It’s almost as if it is intentional.
Have you read these comments? No one wanted these comments.
I like how you include lots of unnecessary background information in your post to disguise how rude it is.
When you’re a learnèd bigot, it’s important you lead with the learning. Doing it in the other order you get much worse results.
Okay, but I’m also not convinced the commenter really knows what Theatre of the Absurd is.
The commenter does not. The theatre of the absurd is deadly serious stuff, about the irrationality of the world and the breakdown of shared meaning.
French ToA was about provoking audience. Thinking about some classics, you had people spontaneously metamorphing into rhinoceroses (Ionesco). You had people buried up to their waist, and more, musing about “Happy Days” (Beckett–not Potsie and the Fonz). At its heart, it wasn’t supposed to be an easy-night-out at the theatre.
Ring’s piece was the same thing. Title VII can be tougher sledding than “Waiting for Godot”. Many people find the notion of a woman being an MLB regular to be absurd. Ring got reactions–in many cases, apparently not the reactions that Rowley, the writer of this piece, wanted.
I’m not going to call those reactions out. People react all sorts of ways when confronted with something they find unusual.
Your implication that Ring was simply trying to provoke a reaction is closed-minded.
Ben Hall: What was she trying to do, if not provoke reaction? She discussed a theoretical lawsuit under Title VII. Was she not trying to get people to react on said theoretical suit (either on the merits of the case, or on the notion of how a scenario would actually play out?).
With no female talent actually in the high minors in present, Ring was performing a thought experiment–and trying to provoke thought and reaction in her readership. Clearly from the volume of comments over that article and Rowley’s follow-up, she succeeded.
He’s right you know.
“Many people find the notion of a woman being an MLB regular to be absurd.“
Yes. That many is composed anyone who understands baseball and the difference between the sexes.
Narrow-minded and agenda-driven people will, of course, call this bigotry, or sexism, or bias, because false accusations like that are the usual response of that crowd to anyone pointing out reality to them.
If a woman ever does appear who actually can compete, sure, give her a fair shot (my guess is that will be someone who was born male). But until then please spare us the virtue signaling. This is NOT what I visit FanGraphs to read.
I believe you’re mistaking Theater of the Absurd for Theater of Cruelty. Two very different forms.
I was trying to be nice! They mostly weren’t French either.
Calling someone a learnèd bigot is your idea of being nice? If that is the case, I would prefer you were just a dick to me.
It was my idea of trying. As are you.
They don’t think name-calling is rude if they do it. When they do it they think that they are showing everyone how virtuous they are, when all that they are really doing is showing us how intolerant they are.
There are over three billion women on the planet. I’m sure there’s one, somewhere, who could do better than the 25th man on the bench or some junk-balling LOOGY.
There’s no actual reason to believe that’s true. Women’s national Olympic soccer teams are often beaten badly by local teams of 14-year-old boys. There are many plausible reasons to think the physical differences between men and women may simply be too large for even a single woman to compete at the higher levels of a major sport. Your position is in no way a given.
You got a source on that soccer team anecdote? I’m trying to imagine the circumstances in which an Olympic soccer team would ever be playing a competitive game against 14 year old boys. That sounds insane.
They aren’t really designed to be “competitive games”, and they’re U-15 teams rather than U-14, but the US Women’s National Team often takes on boys’ teams around that age level in friendly matches as a means of getting practice in without having to travel overseas. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, but it’s a more even level of competition than if they were to try to practice against the full-fledged men’s national squad.
Here’s one account: http://www.soccerwire.com/notes/fc-dallas-academy-u-15-side-defeats-uswnt-5-2-in-scrimmage/
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
“In preparation for two upcoming friendlies against Russia, the U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team on Sunday and fell 5-2, according to FC Dallas’ official website. “
It sounded insane to me when I first heard it, too, which is part of why I’m now here being a contrarian ass. I actually think it would be cool to see a woman in MLB, but there are nonetheless serious reasons to think it could be vanishingly unlikely.
These matches are surely practice rather than fully competitive, but I don’t think they can just be thrown out on that basis. They still happened.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/05/25/matildas-beaten-7-0-by-newcastle-jets-under-15-boys-team_a_21383895/
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
I truly wish women could compete with men. Honestly. I just do not think it is possible. I mentioned this in a prior post but I played college baseball. I used to scrimmage with 4 other random guys from the baseball team vs the girls college basketball team to get the girls work against people who are bigger, faster, stronger. Two of those girls went on to play in the WNBA. I wish I could say the games were competitive, and we didn’t keep score, but if we did it would of been around 100-20.
It was just blocked shot after blocked shot, fast break after fast break. It wasn’t even fun, and quickly became embarassing so we scrapped it after a couple scrimmages.
I played rugby in college. One summer I went along with the team we were sending to a 7s tournament. There were a handful of other extras from other teams there so we formed an ad hoc team to even out a bracket. We got smoked. It wasn’t quite as bad as the final score showed, but we were a bunch of guys who never played together before and were playing out of position. Some of the women from one of the women’s teams that played were talking smack about how much we sucked. So we played whoever got the first 5 tries wins. We won 5-0 and only lost possession of the ball once. It wasn’t even a challenge. Two passes to the wing and we were receiving the kickoff.
Can’t tell if you re trolling or not because I don’t understand a thing about Rugby
It would be as close to zero comparison as you can possibly get to baseball. Rugby involves direct physical contact and tackling. Think of it as a form of football and you’d be very close.
I do, and he’s telling it like it is.
Yeah – I want that source too.
Sorry – the response box come up above previous replies.
My position is that one shouldn’t assume it is impossible that a woman could play in th majors. Yes, just because every woman we know who has played against men in a professional setting has demonstrated a level of performance which wouldn’t cut it at AA, if not A, doesn’t mean thre isn’t a one-in-a-billion physical specimen who could. The example that Internationally competitive women’s teams are competitive with junior men’s teams playing under rules to accommodate the women doesn’t mean one of those women aren’t good enough to make it at the men’s level.
Does the one-in-a-billion possibility legally obligate MLB to pour money into developmental programs designed to ferret out that one?
It shouldn’t. I was responding to someone who thought it was absurd to consider that a woman could play in the MLB. It’s not. Even at a billion-to-one there’s 3. And the standard isn’t “everyday regular” but “play”. There is some woman, somewhere who, if given every chance to develop her baseball skills to the absolute limit of her natural and legally-allowed chemical ability could earn a spot on a MLB roster on her merits. And certainly there are more women who could make it at a lower level of competition.
Thinking about it the MLB probably doesn’t put any money into this because then it opens them up to charges that they’re being discrimitory if the women involved don’t get promoted. As long as the MLB goes “we don’t scout women because every woman who has played against professional men has been objectively poor with no reasonably foreseeable hope of success at a higher level”. So they don’t fund a more concerted effort at development because it opens the up to the very risk that the current “discrimination” is accused of opening them up to.
No, but the MLB should absolutely support such development if not “pour money” into it. Just changing the “softball funnel” would be an excellent start.
Are girls/young women denied access to their high school baseball teams, or summer league teams?
So you’re saying a 6’3″ 180lbs woman couldn’t possibly throw a ball harder than Hoby Milner or more importantly more accurately than Joely Rodriguez? Both of whom appeared in more than 25 MLB games for the Phillies last year? I call bullshit
The fastest fastball anyone’s ever heard of a woman throwing is 84 mph, and even that may be apocryphal. There are big, big differences in upper body strength.
So yes, I have doubts.
And you would be wrong. Go pay close attention to a Top Ten NCAA 1A softball team for a while and get a dose of reality.
And…you missed the entire point of this article
Well put, Meg.
No one should be shouted down and told they can’t express their opinion here. Fangraphs might not exist if people hadn’t been willing to weather the shouts of “you never played the game so shut up.” We should be better than that here.
“Our community is a weird, happy little place much of the time.”
You must be reading some other comment section! This one is almost always populated by at least a few pugnacious goobers.
I realize I’m missing the point of the post. I just wanted to say one thing in relation to this:
“we don’t know if a woman can play in Major League Baseball”
I think we do know. We can say with absolute certainty that a woman can play Major League Baseball. It’s inconceivable that somebody out there couldn’t at least mimic pre-power Jose Altuve. Or a Zack Granite/Marco Scutaro type. Leonys Martin is going to bat leadoff for the Tigers. He had a .232 OBP last year. Perhaps we don’t know if there’s a Mike Trout or even a Khris Davis. If we’re patient enough, we’ll probably find one.
As you expressed, the barriers to entry currently prevent us from developing these players. This saddens me.
For those interested in further reading by former FG stalwart Bradley Woodrum:
https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/the-physical-obstacle-for-women-in-baseball/
That is the thing, it is a moving target. 100 years ago it would of been impossible to picture there being players on every roster throwing 100mph.
Maybe one day there would be a girl who could throw as hard as the average major leaguer does now, but by that time the average male fastball would likely be a lot faster too.
The only, and I do mean only route is as a knuckleball or submarine pitcher. And even that seems incredibly unlikely as most those players were pitchers who couldn’t quite crack it “traditionally”.
Brad I respect your opinion, but I feel like you are very wrong on this.
Leonys Martin can run a 6.4 60 and had the highest rated arm in the entire mlb as recently as 2014 and has thrown the ball from the outfield over 100mph year in and year out.
I get that you cited his obp, but you failed to mention that he throws a baseball much harder than any women ever, and runs faster than all but a couple female olympic sprinters. He isn’t in baseball for his obp.
Khris Davis? Mike Trout? The only way you can think that is the case is if you are referring to a girl throwing better than those two.
I agree with you about Martin. It’s unlikely that a woman would be as good defensively as he is. Maybe not impossible; I don’t know.
But let’s use some different examples:
Jordan Pacheco hit .272/.310/.365 with -29.1 DEF from 2011 to 2016 and got 1149 PA. If a woman could hit almost as well (say .250/.300/.340) with better defense, she’s probably as good as Pacheco was. Or at least should get a chance to show it. No one is saying she should get 1149 PA before being rejected.
Isn’t it possible that a woman somewhere could someday hit as well as Alexi Amarista’s .231/.275/.323 line with lousy (though versatile) defense? He racked up 1901 PA!
I don’t even know that it’s likely, but I think to say that no woman could ever be as good as the worst men of the last 7 years is showing far more certitude than is warranted.
“As you expressed, the barriers to entry currently prevent us from developing these players. This saddens me.”
It’s not that. It’s the lack of the ability to compete against men.
There might be a female Trout out there? With all due respect, it’s hard to take your argument seriously when you make such an absurd claim. The trouble I have with the barrier to entry argument is that in other sports there is no barrier to entry and women can’t compete so I’m not sure why so many people think baseball is so different. And I reject the idea that it’s not a sport that relies on physicality, it is a very central component in every facet of the game. As other people have said, I really think that the only chance is for a knuckleballer with a funky delivery.
This took courage to write and post
And surely a lot of restraint.
Agreed. It can’t be an easy decision to destroy your credibility with a single blog post.
Thank you for writing this–excellent post. I especially appreciate that you focused on the ignorance of certainty as well as unfriendliness of tone, though of course the two often go together.
I think this is great, Meg. This is usually a very kind community, and I hope that articles like this remind people of the value of that.
Women aren’t legally excluded to begin with. When one is good enough to play in the pros one will play int he pros. My issue with the article was the use of a clearly biased source to make claims such as a woman could easily be Jose Altuve! They could also easily be a catcher! Those types of throw away comments are incredibly disrespectful to the men who have trained their whole lives to be amazing.
The post didn’t say “A woman could easily practice and become Jose Altuve”
It said “one of the 175 billion women who currently exists could easily have similar physical gifts to Jose Altuve, and we’ll never know because they don’t ever get the chance”
The odds of any one woman having those talents are infinitesimally small – so, too, are the odds of any one man having said gifts (though they are comparatively larger).
In fact, I think that most people would agree that it is theoretically possible for a woman to have those physical gifts; the odds of them ever developing them are basically nonexistent.
Er, great comment aside from the whole “175 billion women who currently exist” thing
“In fact, I think that most people would agree that it is theoretically possible for a woman to have those physical gifts; the odds of them ever developing them are basically nonexistent.”
This is exactly why I believe that the first “woman” player will be someone who was born male and then decided later in life that they were mentally a woman.
” Maybe certain readers thought it didn’t express adequate appreciation of the great distance we have to close. But they could have been nicer about it; they could have shown greater care. They could have appreciated that what means very little to them means a great deal to me and mine, and tempered not their criticism but their ire.”
I feel like most comments did do this. Most of the comments did focus on the statistical probability of finding a capable woman major league prospect. However, there was some backlash at some of the points made in the article but I feel like those were pretty reasonable as well. You can’t just make the inference “woman can succeed in baseball because Jose Altuve is undersized” and not expect some kind of response
” Maybe certain readers thought it didn’t express adequate appreciation of the great distance we have to close. But they could have been nicer about it; they could have shown greater care. They could have appreciated that what means very little to them means a great deal to me and mine, and tempered not their criticism but their ire.”
Maybe. And maybe certain writers should focus on baseball reality and not use FanGraphs as a vehicle to push their personal agendas.
I’m not against a woman with sufficient talent playing in MLB. I just realize that woman does not exist at this time and may never exist, and I don’t like to see agenda-driven crusades like this on FanGraphs.
I’m not sure why you think a woman born female can’t make it to MLB, multiple woman have made it as high as AA, Jackie Mitchell was basically blocked by MLB after she struck out both Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. The question is not if a female could make it to the show, the question is are we going to foster a culture that will allow a female to develop like there male counterparts.
Wait which women made it to AA? A quick Google search turned up nothing.
Yeah, I don’t see how a couple of articles on a niche baseball blog counts as a “crusade” of any kind. That seems a bit defensive. But, with that being said, the level of interest seems to suggest that more voices, even ones from outside of the online baseball insider land could be useful, too. Debate is a good thing. Everything is political, but that doesn’t mean it has to be partisan. I don’t want to see FanGraphs be overly partisan, but it would be a shame to see the editors shy away from addressing potentially controversial subjects out of fear that readership can’t handle them.
There is never a reason to be an asshole, and there were a couple assholes, but honestly, the article did sort of say “I’m not going to go into whether a woman could play baseball except to really quickly give a one-sided argument that they definitely could if not for societal barriers.”
If the article was not intended to spark discussion about how realistic it is that a woman could (or would) end up playing Major League Baseball, it was at least incredibly naive to believe that would not be the result.
This is one of the best things I’ve read on Fangraphs. Thank you Meg.
I wondered about the potential reaction as soon as I read that (excellent) post. Already this one is being characterized as clickbait and less than legitimate in some comments.
I, among others, am looking forward to more.
God, you still don’t get it. My disgust with the article had nothing to do with a woman playing MLB and everything to do with the author writing about how women should sue over it.
It doesn’t say should. The thesis of the article is that if a woman thought she could play better than some 25th man or AAAA guy, she COULD sue
Semantics.
I think I probably disagree around 100% with the “disgusted” people both about gender politics and about what should happen in baseball, but I think there’s something to the idea that these recent baseball-law articles aren’t always doing a great job separating the (descriptive) issues of law from the (normative) questions of politics and morality.
I agree, kind of. I also don’t think the writer can sort out each individual person’ and poster’s feelings on the opposite gender, morality, or teach them empathy. They bring their own problems to the table.
Are women not meant to be protected by the law?
Sounds like you didn’t comprehend either article.
It didn’t say should, it said could. But either way, why in the world would that disgust you?
There is no need to apologize.
The article spoke in great depth the legal perspective of a woman pursuing baseball, as a player or employee. Regardless of whether or not it is feasible for a woman to play professionally, we who care for all others (man, woman, child, adult, black, white, etc.) need to care for institutional balance in opportunity. To dismiss potentially sexist or racist rules ‘because there is no chance X could play there anyways’ continues the narrowness and selfishness and discriminatory feelings people (sadly) endorse.
There is a fine line between allowing a woman to play because she is a woman and supporting a discussion with intent to aid an industry in welcoming a woman to play. I think many people don’t see this line, not just on the article’s forum but through everyday life (extending to race, sexual orientation, etc.). For a woman to pursue professional playing, she would need to know if she can play. Supporting any group of people through amending institutional rules to allow any group to participate, if good/qualified enough, is one of the best things that should be done (along with targeting and supporting youth in their pursuit, and more).
One of the first steps to see if a woman can play in the majors, is to make sure the rules allow her to.
TL;DR – some people are blind as to why we need to fix rules before the rules get challenged, whether on moral grounds or practical.
What barriers to entry exist for women who wish to pursue the game? Is it that there’s not an established pipeline to develop female talent, or is there something else (srs)?
Was there an established pipeline for developing Dominican players before they proved there were benefits to be reaped from doing so?
The reason for any hostility toward that piece was because people recognized it—and this one—for what they are: feminist entryism.
Social justice takeovers provoke civil war in every subculture they enter. It will be interesting to watch whether the complete anti-science of feminism will be able to take root in this community, where facts actually matter.
I suspect it will, because we’ll simply be subjected to piece after piece like this until we’ve finally been educated enough to value caring over analysis.
comments like this really don’t help anyone
Comments like this do help people, though– men! Systems of power don’t just perpetuate themselves. Gender supremacy, like racism, needs constant grooming and maintaince and it’s folks like Estrella who are doing that work. Perpetuing terms like “feminist entryism,” def: an individual, who happens to be a woman, working actively to expand her currently-limited opportunities in life… this is one of the tools in his toolkit, he is weilding that tool like a weapon.
This is sheer projection.
Meg is essentially complaining that the people in the comments of the legal article presented a far more compelling analytical case than the author of the article, thus undermining its entire premise.
No, she was pointing out, not complaining, that people were rude. The fact that people would feel hostile about either of these articles is mind-boggling.
Then you missed the end of the article where Meg paints fact-based commentary as a brutish lout who steals her food and screams in her face.
It’s a brazenly manipulative technique that displays deep contempt for the Fangraphs audience that hurt her feelings with their hateful knowledge of biology.
That should be the title of your memoir: My Hateful Knowledge of Biology.
Oh, might have to work on that one after I’m jailed for fascist baseball comments.
Jailed? Hyperbole much? Thought you were supposed to be cool and rational.
Just lightening the mood with a Hitler joke.
Rude AND closed-minded (in a nasty way that made their own certitude about their position seem like the only possible reasonable conclusion that could be reached).
Take this garbage back to gender studies. Women have the same rights as men in the US and in some cases more.
You are confusing basic human rights with laws.
Pro sports are a meritocracy. Feelgoodism can make for a nice story now and again, but in the end what helps teams to win is what carries the day. Always. Even the negative aspects that come along for the ride (domestic violence, PED use, etc …) are tolerated to a tremendous degree if the bad actors can help win ball games.
The pains that baseball went through to integrate African-Americans provide a terrific example. All the same Chicken Littles clutched all the same pearls and made all the same complaints about how the sport would be ruined.
And it wasn’t. It was made better!
Now I don’t know if we will ever have a woman in MLB, or multiple women, or even a star or two. Maybe we won’t. It’s absolutely possible that there could be tokenism with a player or two just to break the ice at first. But if in the long run they can’t hack it, then in the long run they won’t play. Period.
But to put down the idea as absurd social justice warriordom … mostly just speaks to who you are as a person.
Until women are playing in leagues with men from little league on up, it will be nothing more than social justice warriordom to think that a woman could hack it in MLB as things stand today.
You know, for as much as you’re spewing fascist bullshit, this statement is correct, which is why the point of Sheryl’s original piece is that MLB is probably behaving in a discriminatory fashion by funding boys playing baseball and not supporting girls doing all of those things all the way up, but instead funneling them off into softball and a path that doesn’t lead to MLB.
No rando woman off the street is going to participate at a MLB level; the question is whether MLB’s youth development and scouting practices are discriminatory under the law (by not providing equal opportunity to women who may be capable of meeting the same standards of entry).
“Fascist bs” LOL. Everyone watch out ! The brown shirts are moving in. They want the best players to play baseball regardless of some silly social agenda.
FWIW there are thousands of softball players who all have a truckload more baseball experience than Larry Walker did when he started playing organized ball. Freak athletes are gonna freak, is what it comes down to. The first MLB woman will undoubtedly be a freak athlete in her own right. Part of what allowed Jackie Robinson to make it was that he was so damn good that there was no compelling baseball argument against playing him.
And, of course, the original complaint is about the institutional nature of “as things stand today”. Saying that women can’t compete because women can’t compete is not logic, it’s just a circle.
no one is saying a woman cat play baseball. Quite the opposite.
For the record I am against cat women playing baseball. The claws are an unfair advantage.
My god, the number of line drives the infielders would pick off, though, would be enormous.
Statistically speaking, all major league ballplayers are freaks (i.e., well outside 3 sd above mean performance)
Who said anything about not wanting women to play baseball? If they can hack it, they obviously deserve to play. I want to see a woman play in the majors, personally.
Nonetheless, I recognize these pieces for exactly what they are, and where this is headed for the “community.”
I refute your claims to being psychic about direction of this community. I deny your concept of a secret conspiracy to influence the thoughts of Fangraphs readers. What you are seeing is an influx of new writers and these new writers are sharing thoughts that are important to THEM. It’s their job to be persuasive enough to make YOU care. How you react is completely up to you. If you didn’t like the article then don’t read future articles by that writer.
That is perfectly fine, but if they can’t take criticism then they should find something else to do. Kind of like celebrities whining about being famous. And suggesting people isolate themselves into echo chambers doesn’t help anyone.
Well, it isn’t hard to recognize your comments here for exactly what they are.
Wow, fangraphs is the last place I expected to find facist ideology. I guess we just can’t have nice things. For those of you wondering just google “feminist entryism”. The first result is from rational wiki, which wikipedia describes this way “RationalWiki is a wiki whose stated aims are to critique and challenge pseudoscience and the anti-science movement, explore authoritarianism and fundamentalism and analyze how these subjects are handled in the media” . The second is from a repugnant anti-woman reddit community and the third is a video prominently displaying a swastika over a rainbow flag.
I am sorry to say it but my expectations for the politics on display in these comment sections are significantly lower than, or perhaps I should say to the right of, yours.
Haha, nice quick research.
It’s pretty common for men’s rights activists claim to be on the side of “rationality” and “facts” and “science” but then melt down in the face of a thought experiment like the ones here. It’s almost like the pursuit of knowledge isn’t their primary goal.
It’s pretty clear that Estella (ironic name!) has an axe to grind here, and I don’t think it makes much sense to argue with someone who’s more interested in dissing feminism than analysis.
You’re rationalizing reasons to exclude debate and dissent.
Not very rigorous. And exactly what I’m predicting will become more and more the norm as Fangraphs shifts from analysis to ideology.
This place is certainly on the way to becoming the SJW nonsense that BP has become. A long time ago I had subscriptions to FG, BPro, ESPN, baseball America, the Athletic, and anywhere there was great baseball writing.
The only subscription I pay for still is ESPN and the Athletic. (Baseball America lost the majority of their great writers, although Cooper still amazing. )
The people who write for the Hardball Times is why I had to cancel my FG subscription. I couldnt justify giving racists money.
Cool story, dude. Yet here you are making myriad misogynist comments. You are welcome to GTFO. The community will be better for it.
good, leave
Fare well – welcome back after your brain transplant
Perhaps you should think about the fact that everyone else seems to be changing the way they think, but you are being left behind?
Oh yes, the Very Rigorous Debater has logged on.
See how he tells you what your ideology is. Marvel as he refers to an article about the legal, practical, and social questions of whether a woman can play in MLB as a “social justice takeover”. And then, in the pièce de resistance, feast your eyes on his ability to accuse you of excluding debate and dissent, having engaged precisely ZERO with the actual issues raised by thing he suggests is objectionable.
The Bad Faith Right Wing Argument That Moves Goalposts as Soon as You Start Trying to Argue with Its Original Position is the common currency of this particular set of internet goons. Never, ever debate them in good faith, because your good faith will not be repaid in kind. Choosing not to engage with them is not you excluding their dissent. You’re not silencing anyone. You’re just refusing to let yourself be taken in by a shell game.
There are far, far more interesting people like Sheryl and Meg to engage with. Save your ideas and words for them.
Yeah, I’m really going way out on a wacky fascist limb here to have noticed this same phenomenon play out in numerous other communities, allowing me to recognize the same pattern starting up here.
There’s nothing to respond to. Estella’s words lack meaning, and what meaning they have is just an attack on a political position he clearly has spent considerable emotional energy to attack online.
Don’t feed the trolls.
Oh hey, I recognize you. You’re the guy whose arguments got so destroyed in the other thread you ran away.
I never saw any ideology here at FG until I read posters like yourself.
Using “science” as shield for sexism is misguided at best.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that it is likely that anytime soon there will be an equal number of men and women playing professional baseball in the name of “social justice”, but you might also say it is improbable that for however long baseball is being played that a woman would never be qualified to play at the professional level.
It’s flawed analysis to argue from the assumption that there’s anything unnatural or discriminatory about the results we’ve seen to date.
It’s only improbable to not see a qualified female player if the physical differences between men and women aren’t actually that large. If they ARE large enough, then you could play baseball for thousands of years without reasonably expecting to see a single female ballplayer.
Dismissing this as “sexism” isn’t analysis. It’s religion.
I think the point here is that’s it’s not very nice to say things like. “the complete anti-science of feminism”.
Not recognizing data or research or points made by feminists purely because you think feminism is anti-science is a great example of being too certain. If there are errors in data/analysis, mention it. If you question methods used, fine but how come? If you immediately ignore research done showing that it may be possible for a female to compete at some professional level because the research was done by a feminist, than may never even see the information because the only people researching that sort of information is likely going to be feminists.
It’s weird that you and I are probably people Meg was referencing when she said ” Maybe certain readers thought it didn’t express adequate appreciation of the great distance we have to close.” So it’s not like I even whole heartily disagree with you completely on this specific point (though I have a feeling you’re more certain than me) But there are definitely better ways to express your vies, way that aren’t purposefully offensive.
A very fair criticism—but if you go read the comments in the piece referenced here, they’re doing exactly what you’re asking for.
And in response, Meg calls the community to task for it.
That’s a big red flag.
Your statistical acumen is obviously quite limited, Mens’ and women’s performance curves overlap significantly. The statistical likelihood a a home performing at a high enough level is not that low – the likelihood that she lives in a community that would give her an opportunity is the real limiting factor.
No. Ring herself refutes this in the previous piece where she cites the common 10% absolute gap in athletic performance between elite males and elite females.
It’s conceivable that there is some woman, somewhere, who is exceptional enough to compete with MLB players. Even so, there is almost zero overlap whatsoever once you get out onto the far end of the bell curve where elite male athletes lie.
You know how I know I’m right? Because the instant I brought this up, the owner of the entire site rides in on his white horse to defend his author and tacitly accuse me of sexism.
Show me one single comment I’ve made that’s sexist and I’ll donate $100 to your site tomorrow.
I’ll wait.
“you might also say it is improbable that for however long baseball is being played that a woman would never be qualified to play at the professional level”
The crux of this argument is that it does in fact seem reasonable to think that it is very highly probable that a woman will never be an MLB-caliber baseball player. I find Rowley’s complaint about “certainty” to be misguided and somewhat disingenuous, as plenty (I think most) of the comments criticizing the premise of Ring’s post, and the thin evidence that she cited, were phrased in terms of “exceedingly unlikely”.
Discussing this in terms of baseball is somewhat complicated by the prevalence of female softball in the U.S., which results in relatively few girls and young women playing baseball, but the evidence from a sport such as basketball (with participation paths for both men and women) is that it is vanishingly unlikely that a woman will ever play in the NBA or at the level of top Division I men’s college basketball.
Is basketball a fair analogy for baseball in this regard? Maybe, maybe not. It does rely on some different skills with arguably more focus on pure athleticism of jumping ability, strength, and speed. There is evidence, however, that the difference between sexes in one skill very important to baseball (throwing) is in fact greater than the approximately 10% difference in world records in running events from sprints to distance races. For example, the men’s world record in the javelin throw is about 36% greater than the women’s record, with the men throwing a javelin that’s 1/3 heavier.
In short, in various athletic competitions, there’s plenty of science of physiological differences between the sexes and statistical breakdown of population distribution to explain why men far over at the far right hand of the distribution – the best in the world at their respective competitions – are overwhelmingly likely to be better than the best women in the world at those same events. The questions are (1) whether we should expect baseball to be an exception or (2) whether the depth of talent drawn into baseball is deep enough that it goes much beyond that far right hand size of the distribution.
On the first point, Ring’s original post cited a claim of research from Jen Mac Ramos – research not linked in the post – claiming that women could be “good” middle infielders in the mold of Eckstein or Altuve. We’re not given any particularly reason to believe that claim other than an appeal to authority of Ramos. Ring also writes summaries such as Eri Yoshida being mischaracterized as “holding her own” as a pitcher in the independent leagues, when Yoshida in fact had a 7.62 ERA over 78 innings with far more walks than strikeouts.
On the second point, I believe that Ring very much mischaracterized the question of how much depth of performance MLB teams truly consider, as the clear majority of the 6,500 players in affiliated ball aren’t there because of their current level of play but because they’re seen to have some chance of development to improve to be one of the approximately 1,000 to 1,500 players that are relevant for consideration for MLB roster spots either now or in the near future. It’s a point that’s abundantly clear when we read prospect coverage at Fangraphs: ceiling matters greatly for low-level minor leaguers, which is why a 26-year old who could be a better A-ball player than a 20-year old right now because the point is to look at the upside of what the latter might become.
Well said. SJW’s and left wing culture are invading and destroying every environment they enter at an alarmingly fast pace. The good news is, in the end, sanity, facts and values will prevail.
If this is not a parody, from the bottom of my heart, I hope this “environment” is “destroyed” for you. Your hatred and insecurity have no place here or anywhere else.
Forgive me if I missed a prior comment from him earlier that might have shined some light, but I’m not sure just attributing his disagreement to “hatred” and “insecurity” is any different than the people to whom this article is describing.
Truly incredible post. The same people who claim science sure like playing make believe
I always get a kick out of someone trying to frame social justice as some awful, terrible thing. Social justice just means equality of opportunity. It doesn’t mean equality of outcomes.
Call me a social justice warrior if you like. I’d be proud of that. What would the opposite be?
A social inequality warrior?
This comment could have been posted on a gaming board, or a discussion about star wars, or about 1000000 other places where men come out as insecure people, who are threatened by women having equal access and rights. Pretty sad, actually.
Yes, that’s it men are insecure, men are mean that’s why there are now wamen in MLB. And other posters claim leftist, social justice trash isn’t creeping in. So far outside of virtue signaling the only argument to support a women competing with men at a high level is because there are billions of women and one must be there. The reality is there is zero evidence to suggest a highly trained woman can compete with a highly trained man in strength and speed. Is it possible, sure but it is still extremely unlikely until either PED’s are allowed, still unlikely, genetic engineering becomes a thing or the integration of humans and machines eliminating the massive disadvantage women are at.
“To account for the effects of nurturing, Thomas studied aboriginal children in Australia, who throw the same amount regardless of gender. The girls threw tennis balls at about eight-tenths the velocity of their male counterparts. In the U.S. that’s only slightly more pronounced, as The Washington Post points out, with girls throwing about 51 to 78 percent of the velocity. That suggests there’s some kind of explanation in addition to nurture.”
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-09/fyi-do-men-and-women-throw-ball-differently
How can you say she is advocating caring over analysis, just because she is advocating for caring? Do you ever run out of straw men?
Because she’s written a work of fiction—read the end of this piece again, it’s a literal narrative—to attack the much more rigorous analysis in the comments of the other article?
If every there was a comment that showed why we needed the flags, it’s this one.
Until a woman does play in the majors, nobody can say with certainty women cannot. Unless they can disprove every case (every woman alive and I the future), they cannot say with certainty women cannot play in the majors.
The only way they could make that claim would be through discriminatory institutional rules (which I hope they would be pursuing appends to) preventing play. Otherwise, they’re speaking out of stupidity.
That was beautiful (and I don’t use that adjective lightly, I assure you!). Perhaps one of the reasons I’m passionate about this issue, too, is because my mother wanted so badly to be the first female major leaguer. Back in the 70’s she practiced with the male little league team, was argueably the best on the team, but wasn’t allowed to play in any of the games despite the coach desperately wanting her to. It was simply the rules back then, no other reason. It’s the lack of opportunity that bothers me the most.
And, sorry-not-sorry to the jerks out there, before you say anything about my mom, she’s Scandinavian, tall and strong, and could Pippi Longstocking most of your butts if you harrassed her. Just Saying.
Thank you for writing this, Meg.
Fangraphs has gone through a lot of change in the past couple months-mainly, several excellent writers leaving and lots of new writers coming on board. I’m genuinely sad that I won’t get to read Dave Cameron’s articles or Eno’s chats anymore. However, the thing that actually made me consider whether I wanted to keep reading Fangraphs was the bitter, strident, angry tone of the comments to Sheryl’s article. To a lesser extent, I felt similarly when commenters raged at writers who dared to question whether players were being hurt by baseball’s current economic environment.
I’m glad that you wrote this article, and I’m glad that Fangraphs endorsed your opinions by publishing it. I’m a man, but I have no interest in spending (internet) time with people who blindly reject the participation of women (in any way, at any level).
I think you’ve mentioned in chats that you have a background in political science. If Fangraphs asked you to occasionally write about how broader social issues affect baseball, I’d be excited to read it.
After months of not bothering, largely due to inertia and laziness, this article, and this comment, were what finally motivated me to purchase a Fangraphs membership.
I miss the writers who have left, but I have deeply enjoyed work by each of the new writers, and I appreciate both the ‘traditional’ Fangraphs analysis and the new ideas and topics that Meg, Sheryl, and others are exploring more regularly.
P.S. Bring back Notgraphs, and I’ll upgrade my membership!
Agreed–the new writers have brought a lot of great topics and energy to the site.
The message is profound and necessary, but it is the writing and the voice that make this piece so moving. Thank you for elevating my day and for broadening my vision.
You are a talented writer, Meg. I’ve read a lot of emotionally engaging pieces on this fine blog, but this resonated for its generosity and sincerity. Sorry for the trolls. This is the kind of feminism that persuades and will win in the long run (pardon if you don’t care for that label, as another commenter has already used it as a slur in this thread). This isn’t about culture war, it’s about finding talent and knowledge wherever it may exist–I’m not sure why that makes people so angry.
We live in a very deeply, ideologically divided society in which one half of the divide just spent 8 years out of power and fearing for their (not actually threatened) priviledges, and whose return to power involved an individual that the other half of the divide views as not just ideologically incompatible, but as demonstrating a whole host of major character flaws, for which he is under constant attack, which in turns motivates a heavily defensive reaction in those who retain a favorable viewpoint.
That individual has harnessed a whole population of people who have long prioritized liberty over equality and who have long viewed social progress initiaves as compulsory behavior. You can even see them in this thread.
He’s also made the group opposed to him feel an obligation to be much more outspoken about what they believe because many of them believe that he has only succeeded because of their silence, and that he has allowed viewpoints they long regarded as grounds for social explusion to again be routinely voiced in conversation as mainstream viewpoints (you need only look through this thread and find the comment about feminism as compulsory social engineering to find the kind of viewpoints that wouldn’t be spoken in public 36 months ago).
Any issue that touches on these topics, even tangentially, is inevitably going to have to deal with them. Sports is being compelled to deal with an increasingly vocal political landscape unwilling to tolerate ‘escapism’ or ‘refuge’ from political debate at the same time that legitimate political issues are arriving at the sport itself (from baseball player compensation to NFL player protests to conservative criticism of NBA player activism)
You will never post a politically tangential topic on the internet somewhere and not have angry partisans. There are a lot of angry partisans on both sides; one thinks that our traditional way of life is under unending assault and in danger of survival, the other thinks our democracy is under unending assault and in danger of survival.
There is a demographic that universally disfavors any kind of social change; its important to remember that something like 65% of people who voted for our President also said that life was better in the United States in the 1950s than it is in the present.
That’s a profound statement about their opinion of social equality for women, gays, and people of color that is not compatible with the viewpoints of those who disagree with them.
I love writers who attribute all the bad values to people who they disagree with, and all the good values to the people who are like the writer. That is the sort of high-quality content which drives all the best thinkers.
Maybe someone who looks fondly at labor unionizing to secure greater benefits to “The Workers” should be a bit more careful about attributing malice to people who look at the past through rose-colored glasses. A lot of that “awesome unions protected workers and good jobs” were protections paid for by intentionally excluding those same women and POC. So every time, every time, you think “man, it’s a shame unions suck now” you’re thinking “Man, it was great when unions colluded to make sure blacks couldn’t earn a living.”
I make no secret of which side I come down on, but I think I did a credible job of summarizing the core concerns of the other half in my post.
That doesn’t mean that their movement hasn’t been co-opted by someone who openly appeals to the most basic, fear-determined, exclusionary responses which encourages them to blame people of different colors, religions, genders, or sexual orientations for their misfortunes.
The 2016 election has made people who spent a lot of time thinking ‘fuck this, why are we trying to help {groupname}” but were afraid to say it aloud for fear of social repercussions instead feel free to voice that sentiment in public debate as a mainstream viewpoint, because we elected a President who says those things.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t socially objectionable.
And its equally true that flawed implementation in the past is both no excuse to do it in the future and doesn’t detract from progress. Unionization and striking gave workers the weekend, the 40 hour workweek, safe working conditions, eliminated child labor, and a host of other social gains.
The whole point is that in each succeeding generation we should try to do better. What we failed to do in the 1920s and 1930s was included people of color; today’s landscape features some powerful unions with majority-minority membership (like the SEIU). Tomorrow’s progress is built on the foundations of the past, while correcting for it’s injustices.
And the progress of tomorrow’s tomorrow will be built on today’s foundation, while accounting for its own injustices or oversights or simple failure to move the needle.
The dynamic has changed, though, with the addition of a political force that does not merely say ‘too fast! Changing too much! Don’t be so disruptive!’ but actually says “Go backwards! Undo the change! Restore the previous status quo!”
Such movements are rare in the grand scope of human history, and almost universally poorly regarded. As, too, will this one.
I love how you earnestly go “flawed implementation in the past is both no excuse to blah blah blah,” in response to an argument where you’re attributing some pretty awful malice to people who wish things were similar to some poorly defined “better past”. But, yes, keep telling yourself you and yours are those who are right in all things, and if something doesn’t god if something you do goes sideways it doesn’t matter because your intentions are right. You’re a fine writer, you’re a stunningly ignorant and hateful person.
These two comments are great. Ignore the assholes.
“I think I did a credible job of summarizing the core concerns of the other half in my post.”
LOL
If you’re not working 80 hours a week, if you have weekends off, or your children below the age of 16 aren’t conscripted to work, then maybe you should rethink your attitude about what unions have and have not done for workers,
Does anyone believe that our ancestors got everything right?
Please show me where I said that unions weren’t important. They can be important in fighting for improved working conditions while also openly serving to keep women and minorities from working in high-paying industries. You don’t get the claim all the good without also taking the baggage of the bad. Gee, it is almost like you’re wishing for a return to the “good old days” while ignoring the fact the “good old days” weren’t actually all that hot for women POC. Be careful, doing that makes you a Trump supporter per Mikejunt.
I have no idea how you determined that interpretation of what I said.
Societies have flaws. Civilization has long had flaws. We have tried, in our limited way, as humans, to do better each successive generation, to provide a better environment for our children, to perfect this experiment of a nation just a bit more than we did before. It came into being with some glaring flaws in both its construction (3/5ths of all other persons) and in the society which birthed it (which, among other things, treated women as inferior creations, deprived persons of any ethnic variance of nearly all opportunity, institutionalized many of them in slavery, and institutionalized social structures that were repressive and controlling via the institution of religion instead of the institution of government.
Over the passing of time we have addressed some of those wrongs and made right the most obvious of them (emancipation, the franchise, etc) without addressing more systemic biases, and without actually taking the necessary steps to put everyone on an even footing in a world of institutionalized and hereditary wealth. An underclass was created, and exploited nearly as much as in the slave-state that proceeded it, terrorized, lynched and kept in place via fear and blatant separation.
Some among us worked against that, and it became pretty much a universal opinion in the places where economic success had not long been sustained on the backs of those who were previously held in slavery and now held in economic bondage. That has been the core of it since the beginning: abolition of slavery, and of the sharecropping and exploitation that followed, would require tearing down the current economic model in those states that were so dependent upon it. The emancipation of the black man was the economic downfall of the southern white man; the industry and factories were in the north.
In the last century this exploitation continued, and the economic crux has always been the challenge. Eventually the majority in favor was so universal and large that it became a major party issue, with that party delaying and not pushing the issue because the votes of those very southerners were what got them elected in the first place. Progress was slow, injustice remained.
And then the brightest light, the youngest President, the man who had promised to right these wrongs, in time, to coax along the ‘Dixiecrats’, was assassinated. It brought turmoil, upheaval, and discontent.
And it put in place a successor who was bound and determined to see through the vision of his predecessor; a man who was deeply personally moved by the plight of the impoverished and disadvantaged, one who sought so much to make it his legacy as President that he had addressed those issues that he knowingly maintained an unjust war for a decade simply to not give up the political capital he wanted to spend on the domestic issue.
And in a world where the outpouring for that assassinated President was so overwhelming, that his successor was elected to his own term with 49 out of 50 states in support, in one of the greatest landslides we’ve ever seen, there was nothing to stop him. He did not do it gradually, he grabbed it in both hands and rammed it through Congress in one sitting. The Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Voting Rights Act. Medicare. School integration, backed by military strength. The injustice would end.
But sudden change always comes at a cost, and that cost is the discomfort of those who do not benefit, and see around them only turmoil. Rioting, assassinations of other figures (RFK, MLK), cops turning fire hoses on protesters in Chicago.
And so a modern movement was born in one swoop: The angry south, who switched parties en masse and immediately, and the uncomfortable suburbanite, from a largely segregated community, uncomfortable with the unrest and wanting a return to stability: What Nixon called the Silent Majority.
And so was born modern conservatism, a movement defined primarily by reaction, especially for its first decade, until Ronald Reagan helped combine three elements into a potent coalition: Religious conservative objection to liberalization of sexuality (abortion, later homosexuality), southern racial resentment and bias, and the Republican’s long-loved friend, laissez-faire economics of the Hoover era.
And so that saga played out across our society for 3 decades, but it came to a crashing end starting in 2006, after our President proved incompetent in the face of major disaster, when his party was thrown from Congress in a huge wage, and then, during the election of his successor, his policies lead to the greatest economic collapse in 80 years.
But in that same election, a man was elected who was the perfect avatar of everything modern conservatism had been designed to dislike: educated, professorial even, a man of color, a man whose religion was not mainstream conservatism, and that accommodated social liberalism. A man with a foreign-sounding name who came in with too much optimism attached. The perfect target for decades of racial resentment politics, from Strom Thurmond to Willie Horton to George Bush pointing out in the South Carolina primary that John McCain had a BLACK adopted child. At the same time that conservative economic ideas suffered a fatal blown for a generation, and that it was becoming obvious that their social conservatism was a lost cause with the future generation, they were given an avatar of the last prong of their tripod: racial resentment.
This came as birtherism, which gave us the political genesis of the current president. And it made him, and those like him, recognize how potent a force that resentment could be, how much the average white person, not doing all that well, perceived efforts to close the gap as unfavorable to themselves, how much people across the south still resented treating people of color as equals.
And so there has been demagoguery, which has flashed to violence. The language of racial resentment: with targets from Muslims to latinx to african american ‘inner city thugs’, all of the implication: they’re taking your opportunities. They’re taking your cities. If we stopped trying to make them equal, your life would be so much easier.
There might even be a degree of truth; there’s a profound advantage to being a white man in our society, and I have taken its benefit as so many of the rest of us have. When it is gone, it will be harder for someone like me. But our society will be stronger for it, and it is necessary.
We have achieved so much while relying on just one segment of our population in so many ways: to lead, to invent, to design. Expanding the pool of talent by double, triple even, by adding people who are not white, and people who are not men, will simply find us more smart people, and move us faster. It should not be hard to imagine how far we would go bringing 3x the talent to bear.
That those previous thinkers did not always succeed, or implemented solutions that didn’t always work, does not mean that we stop trying and give up. We watch, we learn, and we try again.
Modern Trumpism is a movement to go backwards, to return to fixed gender roles in families, to fixed social structure by race and wealth, to different sexes pursuing different professions, and those who are ‘aberrant’, in their sexuality, in their career desires, in their desired role, being outcast and despised.
Not all people who support Donald Trump believe that; some attach to one specific idea (SC Justices, lower taxes, etc), but the heritage of his movement is born in racial bias and resentment, and it shows in his every action, from ‘shithole’ countries to pretending a US Judge with a Latino last name can’t give him a fair trial, to demanding the execution of young black men on the front page of the New York Times.
Donald Trump’s movement is about resentment and fear and anger, which is why all he ever talks about is danger and fear. It is his most powerful, indeed, his only, weapon.
And the only antidote, the only effective response, is the plain truth, the alleviation of fear, and the understanding that we will, once again, improve .. together.
Lighten up Francis. Jeebus, what a pretentious asshole.
Seriously, did you actually write that wall of argle-gle-bargle just for me? Or do you keep it on a Word doc to C&P for just such an occasion? Because if it’s the former you need a life. Desperately need a life.
way too long. didn’t read
You are not wrong at all about the fact that unions in the past (and present!) did some awful things to maintain their power.
But the reason unions have lost power has nothing to do with them opening up membership to previously excluded groups and everything to do with businesses using money and influence to restrict unions and convince voters that unions are bad.
I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted. This is a thoughtful comment.
Because when a social debate is linked on an alt-right forum, posters very carefully upvote all of their people and downvote dissent, and average users don’t always delve so deep into the thread to get around to re-upvoting the comments.
This is a tactic they use to make their opinions seem mainstream.
There’s probably a baseline +10-15 votes for the anti-feminist posters in this conversation and a -10-15 vote penalty for anyone arguing with them, because one of them probably linked it on one of their social media sites.
Don’t think so. Not yet. We’ve not been overrun with trolls.
Its swung back, in the first hour or two their brigade was apparent.
Only chance of a woman ever making the Majors would be in the form of a submarine or sidearm reliever.
Plenty of guys in baseball are there because of speed, good glove, and just barely enough hitting. I could easily see a woman with the speed and Juan Pierre type contact. Spray it around. zero power. good batting eye. Wouldn’t be a star, but play in the bigs? As to the pitching route, the quite obvious is a woman that learns to throw a knuckle-ball.
Thank you and Shirley for both pieces. It’s this type of work that keeps me coming back to FanGraphs (in addition to all the nerdy stats stuff, which I love). I really appreciate setting the tone of doing right by others as well as bravely exploring the interesting hypothetical spaces that haven’t yet been pushed.
Few places do either. You folks have done both.
Don’t forget Lenny and Squiggy.
If you are a person who genuinely thinks that the huge and overwhelmingly negative response to Sheryl Ring’s piece only had to do with the merits of the article itself, then I think you should take a step back and just think about it for awhile. When was the last time an article had over 300 comments?
Travis Sawchik wrote an article saying Gary Sanchez wasn’t going to be as good as everyone thought he was and it only has 74 comments on it, even though a lot of people disagreed with him. Sheryl’s article has 368.
There is literally nobody here arguing that you have to believe that one day MLB will be filled with female players, but if just asking the question of whether there could be even one makes you mad, then you’ve got some self-inspection to do.
This is obvious mischaracterization of the opposition to the piece in order to paint them as bigots and dismiss their arguments without further thought.
I don’t agree that that’s what I’m doing. My point is to look beyond any individual comment. There is more going on than just people disagreeing with analysis. People disagree with analysis all the time here, but generally not in such huge numbers and with so much anger.
I’m not going to call anyone a bigot for disagreeing with the piece, but I am going to suggest that maybe it’s no coincidence that the one article that inspired an explosion in the comments section was written by a woman about the possibility of professional-level female baseball players and possible legal recourse they might have.
To clarify, I’m saying there can be a sexist reaction to a piece without it meaning that each individual commenter is a raging sexist bigot. Just sit with the reaction and think about it! That’s all I’m asking.
It was entirely about the positioning of the article.
People don’t like being called bigots for the completely rational observation that it’s very unlikely a woman could succeed at the major league level.
Who’d have thunk it?
It would appear the bigots who are so offended by the notion of women at the top level in professional sports are doing a plenty good enough job of showing themselves up as bigots without any help.
I am genuinely sad that any discussion about change or opportunity seems to bring the worst our in so many people.
You’re imagining the offended part. Must be the victimhood culture.
For myself, my lone issue with Sheryl’s piece was the notion that it is perfectly fine to practice discrimination in favor of women, as women’s professional sports leagues most certainly do, but not the other way around.
If we’re going to talk about not discriminating at all, then let’s actually go that route. Or at least stop the pretending.
I don’t know… honestly, are you actually upset about women’s professional sports discriminating againts men? I just sort of don’t believe you on that one. How is your life in any way negatively impacted by not having a shot to play in… what, the WNBA? Plumbers literally make more per year, on average, by the way.
I’m not upset about such discrimination. But I will enjoy a hefty serving of schadenfreude when the lawsuit that paves the way for some early 20s woman to get optioned to AA from Spring Training leads to the WNBA becoming a mostly-male developmental league for the NBA.
I am not upset in the least.
The article that kicked all of this off posed the question from a legal standpoint and referenced the governing statutes. The plain language of those statutes is that making those sorts of decisions based on gender is illegal, but when the discussion turned to the uncomfortable possibility of men “invading” certain professional women’s leagues that was quickly shouted down.
Thus my point that discrimination appears to be perfectly acceptable in one direction but not the other, regardless of how the laws read. And some folks who like their double-standards did not like to read that fact stated plainly.
turn this argument on it’s head. Meg, Sheryl are equally not affected (materially anyways) by the existence of a male only MLB. and the guys riding the pine in low A are similarly making peanuts. are there women out there clamoring for that job? are Meg and Sheryl threatened (as it’s being alluded to for men in your comment) by the fact that elite male athletes play in a male only league? if the interest exists, form a female league, as has been done in many other sports. or maybe we already have those in semi-pro softball teams. i mean it’s cool to speculate the if/how maybe a woman could make the show (and it would be neat to see happen), but why do we NEED to see it happen? why do we need to shame MLB for not making it happen (with pretty scant evidence against them)? why the constant need to justify women athletically in competition with men? let it go and appreciate each on their own, as we do pretty well in many other sports. i realize that’s a tough pill for women to swallow, but this is just not a road you want to be tying your sense of validation to. we may be cyborgs before a woman comes around with the ability and the desire to ride the pine in A ball, never mind make the show.
I guess I’m naive, but I consider sports in general, and MLB in particular, to be just about the only true meritocracies around. Sure, their was a color barrier. And in the past, there have been other artificial ways to exclude people from MLB. But today, in 2018, I think that anyone who is good enough to play in the majors can. (Sorry Ronald Acuna: you’ll need to wait a bit.) I would like to believe that includes women.
If more girls and young women play baseball, and there is a larger pool of female baseball players, then maybe there will come a time when a woman is one of the best 750 baseball players on the planet. And if that time comes, I would hope that she would be allowed to play in the majors.
The point is that not developing and scouting girls ensures they will never develop to that point even if they have the ability, and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If its possible, its necessary to create the path of opportunity for that person to take.
Exactly. MLB is only a meritocracy in that from the pool of baseball players, the best players will always make it in. But there’s always the question of who is making it into the pool of baseball players in the first place. This doesn’t only apply to men and women. The more expensive it is to play baseball as a child, the more potentially great baseball players are going to be excluded from baseball because they can’t afford it.
This has exactly happened in the U.S. with soccer. People fret about the quality of the men’s national team, and why the biggest rich country on earth can’t seem to consistently unearth top-tier talent. But soccer, like baseball, relies on coordination with very unwieldy tools (feet and bats, respectively); if you don’t start learning at a very young age, your chances of making it plummet. Truly competitive, well-coached youth soccer is basically inaccessible to poor and working class families.
For baseball, MLB has been worried about this axis of lost talent for a while now. Efforts to address it have been sparse but growing, I think. It would be nice if they’d at least entertain experimentally trying an investment in girls that’s similar. Even if it never gets farther than a television-worthy women’s pro league, that would be a super cool positive development!
The vast overrepresentation of Caribbean and Central/South American players suggests that expense isn’t much of a limiting factor.
In those places, much like baseball in the Dominican, kids often spend hours and hours playing with each other because it’s their best hope of escaping their community.
There’s a lot more competition for the attention and effort of the athleticially gifted in the United States, from other sports to non-sport diversions (video games, etc) that are not as available in areas with a lower standard of living.
Getting high level competition in the US requires travel teams and good coaching; getting good competition in Brazil requires walking outside and playing a pickup game, vastly different percentages of kids play, from a younger age.
Look at the most gifted baseball players you see who came from the United States: Corey Seager was being taught to swing left handed by his brothers at 2 years old (when Kyle was 9). Cody Bellinger grew up in MLB clubhouses and used to take batting practice from his dad on MLB fields after games were over, as a 3 year old. They were playing baseball from basically the moment they could walk.
Few US kids start soccer like that; most Brazillian kids start soccer like that.
The kind of coaching and training required to make up for that gap, at a later age, is what is expensive.
And even for dominican baseball kids, we put them in academies where they play baseball as a fulltime job starting in their teenage years in order to get them to be Francisco Lindor. They don’t just emerge as fully-formed superstars.
And that kind of scouting and development is what it would take to produce a female major leaguer from someone with the raw athletic ability to be it.
it is a huge investment of time and money
So MLB teams would need to make a massive investment of time and money to achieve an expected return of very little and possibly nothing?
Then it sounds like they’re currently acting perfectly rationally.
There are plenty of economically rational things that aren’t legal because they are discriminatory.
It would also take an athlete development program similar to the old school USSR where they’d give women testosterone for an edge.
The MLB’s PED regime might have a problem with that.
@MJ. I’m going to use your thoughtful comment as a jumping off point that, my hope is, speaks to the broader point. MIKE TROUT! was the 25th pick you in the 2009 draft. The main explanation, as far as I can see, is that scouts had not seen enough if him to grade him with conviction. On the other side of the coin is Bryce Harper being on the cover of SI at 16. Harper, being from Vegas vs. the NE raise Trout. Harper also happened to have a former pro player as a hitting coach, by the name of Mike Bryant. I do think, for many reasons, scouts are able to cast a much wider net now; but still.
Which begs the question, don’t any former pro players have any daughters? It seems to me that, at some point, that is going to be an avenue. As it also seems like there are more former players kids reaching the upper levels.
Another logical avenue, in my mind, would be Latin America, because the playing field does start level and is open to anyone, at an early age.
overrepresented compared to what?
i assume you mean the US population, but consider all the kids of Latin America, who play plenty of ball, but dont have the exposure to coaching, organized team play, etc.
in any elite sport, even in the Olympics (perhaps moreso in the Olympics), the wealthy are overrepresented.
I didn’t read the comments under the previous article, and I don’t doubt some were rude and chauvinistic, but I have already seen very reasonable responses to this post shouted down with claims of “bigotry”, and that doesn’t strike me as being very caring either. I sympathize with Meg’s desire to see a woman play in the big leagues. I’d love to see it too. But throwing cold water on the possibility isn’t hateful, even if the argument is made with false certainty (as is often the case with so many sports debates). Having said that, I think there is a big difference between the sentiment express above and the previous article.
Perhaps, if Sheryl Ring had asked the question, “Will a Woman Ever Play Major League Baseball”, instead of “Can Major League Baseball Legally Exclude a Woman”, the reaction would have been different? After all, the questions are completely different. One is an interesting topic for debate; the other sounds more like an accusation. What may have provoked a more visceral reaction to the other piece is the implication that a woman hasn’t yet played in the big leagues because MLB has been actively trying to prevent it. After all, the idea of a woman suing her way into the big leagues by “bringing a Title VII class action against MLB” isn’t very inspiring. It is, however, very provocative, and turns what would be a fascinating accomplishment into a cause for resentment.
Sheryl is a lawyer who was brought into Fangraphs to do sports legal analysis, so her place is indeed to answer the second question and not the first.
Not sure being a lawyer justifies examining every question from a legal perspective, especially when there is no basis for the hypothetical.
She was brought here to examine things from a legal perspective; so yes, that’s what she’s going to do.
I mean that’s literally her job at this website, so….
Both things can be true though. She wrote from the angle she did because that’s her job (and there’s clearly no problem with that), while at the same time, approaching such a topic from such an angle is likely to inspire defensiveness/resentment.
ya, but as was discussed in the comments section of that article, her premise completely falls apart when you consider the existence of explicitly women only leagues in other sports. there would never be a legal case against MLB in this regard, at least as long as the laws are sane.
But the first question was always going to be discussed, and Sheryl didn’t prevent that from becoming front and center when she made the “women could play MLB” argument. Also, it’s fair to state that the second question is a weird one to ask without any indication that the answer to the first one is “yes.” Could MLB keep an elderly person from playing baseball? Well, no, that would be discrimination. Could MLB keep a blind person from playing baseball? Also, no, that would also be discrimination. Without the far-fetched (in my opinion) belief that women maybe would be getting chances to play baseball if not for discrimination, then the article seems like just a weird question to be asking. This is especially true to me because there are a bunch of other much more relevant questions regarding sex discrimination in baseball, including umpires and front offices.
Yes, thank you! You nailed it. The other was portrayed as an accusation, as if there are women capable of playing in MLB now, and the league was somehow conspiring against them.
It really wasn’t portrayed that way at all. The piece specifically cites an expert in women’s baseball who says there are women who could play in affiliated ball now, not in MLB. And she says MLB is flat-out not scouting the existing women’s baseball organizations based on a structural league-wide belief that they are incapable of being good enough. So the real issue is MLB has no idea if there are women who could improve their organization. (That’s not necessarily just getting to MLB level, but if they can be better A or A+ players than some of who’s there now, it makes your team much more efficient at identifying and improving the true prospects. And if they can do *that* job, they should maybe have the opportunity.)
So the question is whether refusing to scout women is, itself, a violation under Title VII, not whether they have found MLB-level players and kept them out.
Think of it like recruiting for any job. If your company only ever recruited at colleges that were at least 90 percent white—academic quality, size, etc., were mixed, but the one clear distinction was how white the school was—you would rightly be seen as discriminating in your hiring practices. The legal question applies not just to who gets hired into the organization, but how you go looking for them. And right now, it appears MLB isn’t even trying to figure out whether women could improve their organizations.
So that, in turn, forces consideration of a second legal question: is maleness a bonafide occupational qualification? MLB might have to argue that it is, but there doesn’t seem to be a good reason to think so, because women have played baseball in the universe.
Most likely all MLB is doing is just failing to put in the effort, because it’s already super hard to run an MLB franchise. Most likely it’s not any conscious effort. But that doesn’t shield them from legal jeopardy, to say nothing of any ethical questions associated with it.
It’s a really interesting set of legal issues! And Sheryl’s article raised them in a clear, exploratory manner.
Six Ten: If the BFOQ question is applied rigorously, could it lead to the eventual demise of women’s leagues?
Good question! I am not a lawyer and couldn’t begin to speak eloquently about that standard.
The one thing I do know about sex and gender discrimination generally is that the standards for it are different between government and private business. Government discrimination must demonstrate both a compelling interest (e.g., promoting women’s physical fitness and earning power is good) and a demonstrable reason to believe that the discrimination actually does achieve its goals (e.g., statistics demonstrating if only women can play, more women will play; the more visibly women play, the more likely other girls take up athletic endeavors). It seems like it’s pretty easy to argue this is true of women’s leagues but not of men’s leagues (since, for a host of both biological and social reasons men are likely to continue to play regardless of whether their leagues exclude women).
But women’s leagues aren’t state entities, and the private sector doesn’t get to argue this, because as a matter of law it’s not seen as the private sector’s job to promote such interests. I think the private sector has to make its case more narrowly. Then again, these leagues have anti-trust exemptions and various other government protections and sponsorships. Maybe some aspects of the government’s obligations are incorporated in them? Not sure.
It might be worth reading the original comments then. And it’s always a slippery slope when asking that other people be tolerant of beliefs that are, at best problematic, and at worst thinly veiled sexism. We all come into these sort of thought experiments with our own agenda, but it’s pretty obvious if you come into this with an open mind that some people are approaching this issue patiently, thoughtfully, and with compassion for a cause that is not necessarily their own. And others are approaching it with knee jerk reactions, cheap humor, and yes, chauvinism. Which, isn’t to say either opinion is right or wrong. That’s not the point, any person is entitled to their opinion. I think, if you want to take anything away from this piece, it’s that we could all try to be a little more understanding of beliefs that are not our own. And, that’s a two way street.
I mean think about. We’re calling an article by an attorney about the legal standing of women in the MLB “provocative”, “accusatory” and “click bait.” I think that says more about us than either of the authors.
Not to digress terribly, but I feel like watching a woman hit a home run in a Major League game would be a life-changing experience. And that’s just for me as a man. Imagine what that would feel like for our sisters and daughters. The mothers of our future kids. I hope I get to see it in my lifetime.
That or a drawn-in center fielder slipped and the ball rolled to the wall.
If you are trying to have reasonable disagreement about the original article (or this one), this comment isn’t it.
Hell yes. Great essay, Meg. Thanks.
It’s possible for a woman to play MLB. I am more concerned with this country having a female President or something that really matters.
I knew when Ms. Rowley shifted over to FG it was going to result in a dumpster fire being danced around by groups of savages. The only question was whether the savages would be burning her in effigy, chanting about how awesome and brave she is, or the healing power of And.
I see the healing power has won again.
For the most part, Fangraphs readers just don’t like assholes like you. You can see that in the comments section. Comments like yours, whichever “side” they come from, are never well received.
There weren’t comments like this, or mine, in the other article on this subject.
The tone of the comments is a direct response to the tone of the article.
Two issues on the table: Could a woman play MLB? Could we be nice to each other? Answer to the first is very easy: not impossible, but improbable. In addition to the physical disadvantages, a prospective woman prospect would have to find the repetitions to hone the skills necessary to compete at the highest level of baseball. I could certainly see a chance for a female knuckle-baller. I could see a chance for an incredibly fast woman to follow the “great glove, make enough contact at plate” approach to a bench slot. These are not impossible. Likely? Not really. The second issue is really a well known problem. There are a lot of jerks out there. What really upset Meg, in my opinion, is not that there are some jerks, but that people were goring her particular oxen. We probably have a bit less of that on Fangraphs than rest of the world, but we do have it. The only real solution to a genuine troll is banishment and/or ignoring the person. Trying to reason with an angry troll is precisely what they enjoy and you will not ever “win” the exchange or enjoy the exchange. In other words, Meg, let it go and don’t take it personal. I speak for myself and a host of others that say we appreciate your efforts and we’d like you to enjoy your time here, too. But you aren’t going to solve the troll issue. It is endemic to society and human beings.
re: “The baseball sin was the certainty.”
This may just be a personal preference, but I will gladly take certainty, people who plant their flag and defend it, over the “well, I feel like in a way it might seem like” prevarication that’s in fashion these days. You don’t get to truth or resolution by tip toeing around the china shop, that only gets you a warm fuzzy conversation that leaves everyone comforted and agreed with but says or resolves little. That’s a college classroom where the class ends and everyone walks out clueless about what each other even actually believes – but hey, everyone’s comfortable!
There are jerks out there, and some of them are intransigent in their jerkitude, that’s life. I saw a lot of valid counter points being brought up in the comments, and yes, your usually hemming and hawing about social justice warriors that you should expect for any piece on the internet that touches on inclusion. But I certainly hope you didn’t fall in with the crowd who seemed to think that merely asking how practical/probable the goal of women in baseball actually is, is somehow implying that they don’t want to see it happen, because that certainly doesn’t follow.
I for one would love to see this happen, and I’d love to a pipeline that is more flexible in terms of letting girls stay in baseball longer and get the early training they need. Am I skeptical it could ever happen? If you multiply the chances that a transcendent athlete with the right interests gets the right opportunities at the right time, I can say with a good deal of certainty that it’s a heck of a long shot under current conditions.
that’s an interesting take. certainty is something to guard against, but i can definitely sympathize with your classroom reference. soft ideas unchallenged can also be dangerous. we should do our best to be polite, but maybe also don’t sweat it when harsh words come our way, as long as they’re above the belt.
I was with you until this: “That’s a college classroom…”
I teach college writing, and one of the first things we do is teach writers NOT to use qualifiers and weasel words.
But we also teach them that every piece of writing needs to be seen as a part of the conversation, and not just as a strident claim that they, and only they, are right.
Hah! I wish I’d gone to your school, I got so frustrated at mine with how difficult it was to extract a declarative statement from people in class discussions. If nothing else it’s simply no fun – having a scorched earth argument about whether the Crito was earnest or tongue in cheek is both more instructive and more entertaining than safe space wishy washyness, and if you’ve got the right people, through the whole thing they understand in the back of their heads that it’s all interpretations in the end. Sad thing was, all those good discussions happened outside of class for the reasons I’m describing.
Then I got to law school and had professors who would ask questions, require that you respond with either Yes or No first, before any explanation, and then you had to defend your choice. If you couldn’t, you made the wrong choice and that’s ok. Loved it, and people learned pretty fast to have a point, get to it, and think critically about how defensible it really is.
I’m not excusing belligerence, just that people should say what they think with confidence and prepare to back it up. Otherwise, what do you get? The author’s call for ‘care instead of certainty’ in most contexts only gets you care insofar as people care enough not to hurt your feelings by telling you unequivocally that they think you’re wrong. It doesn’t get you to actual empathy. That’s something either born into someone or taught to them, often by hard lessons, not something you can evoke by request.
I have a confession to make: For a long time I thought Kiley McDaniel was a woman. I guess subconsciously I made the assumption that Kiley was a female name. I had no idea and frankly wasn’t overly interested in finding out. Kiley wrote some darn good articles! When I found out Kiley was a man, I didn’t care though I was momentarily surprised. I mean, anyone is when a wrong assumption is proven wrong. But my readership wasn’t affected. I didn’t care when I thought Kiley was a woman and I didn’t care when I didn’t. It’s just an observation.
Funny thing about unconscious bias.. it works the other way too. I read recently about an Australian effort to remove all names from job resumes for public servants, but the effect resulted in fewer female and minority hires. Maybe they were already biased to hire women and minorities and they didn’t know it? That result was a surprise. Who knows if it’s repeatable anywhere else. Who knows if it really matters at all.
I feel obliged to mention I have a 2.5 year old daughter who is my world. I don’t particularly care if she plays baseball or in any league that has men in it. I don’t see why it matters to be honest. I hope she enjoys baseball. But I’d rather she was an astronaut. Heh, but that’s a lot of pressure :). Maybe I’ll settle on hoping that she finds fulfillment in whatever path she ends up on….
But back to the topic at hand, oh yes we can all be nicer to each other. I think that’s something we should try to do no matter what.
There may be some romanticism around the idea of female athletes competing in male arenas. Billie Jean King and all… And it’s fun and it makes for good battle of the sexes fodder. But how valuable is it really to just say “there are women athletic enough to compete with men?!”
Yes that may be true. But when we are talking about the elite of athletic competition we are not merely seeing men who can compete with each other. We are talking about those that dominate. Some dominate due to physical prowess and others due to maniacal dedication to a specific skill coupled with amazing athleticism. And some, like Bartolo Colon, are fat.
There may also be something to the theory that as a society gets more sophisticated, it gets more specialized and that specialization in athletics leads to less chance of elite athletic women competing with elite athletic men, rather than more. I want you to think that one over before you attack me, and try to understand everything I am saying there and not pretend I am saying anything else.
But it seems to me, from the perspective of scarce resources, that it really doesn’t matter if there is a woman out there that can throw 95 mph that is unknown to us all. If you have a scouting department and it has a budget, it has to put that budget towards the highest return. I don’t know why that would be surprising or why anyone would even suggest that subjectively using scarce resources to maximize return should end up in a legal battle.
Going back to my daughter, if she loves baseball and wants to play professionally…… well first off, my family line isn’t exactly full of great athletes so I’d say we’d have to start by assessing whether or not she was switched at birth….. but I would explain to her the obstacles that are in her way and tell her if she still wants to go out at it, that’s great. Doing things that haven’t been done before is supposed to be hard. That’s why they haven’t been done.
David
One more thing about Meg’s article that I want to ruminate on through keystrokes: I am always perplexed by folks that approach issues from a “We” point of view. “We wont quit. We’ll keep fighting. We we we we we weeeeee….”
Oh I know some dumb men say things like “We men need to stand together!” Bah. Ugh. I hate that.
I am a man, yes. But I don’t stand with other men. I don’t identify with other men or share their plight. I have enough problems, thanks, don’t need yours too.
Besides, most men are idiots. Why would I want to join their causes? I bet most women are idiots too. Meg should probably rethink wanting to speak for them (more on “speaking for others” in a moment) or worse, letting them speak for her.
I’ve read men and women have similar IQ’s. But regardless of gender, IQ distribution is spread out fairly wide. Unless you’re on the bottom half of that curve, I can’t see why you’d benefit from identifying with the rest of them…..
But put aside IQ, as it’s fairly controversial measure, in anything we can say about humanity there is a fairly wide distribution of competence. Just from a rational perspective there seems little benefit in trying to identify and join forces with everyone else on that curve unless I’m the one at the bottom!
Ok so finally back to speaking for others with the WE voice. There is a problem with it. It comes off as incredibly hypocritical.
I was with my daughter in downtown San Diego a few weeks ago and the “March for Women” went by. It didn’t take more than two nanoseconds of brain power to realize it wasn’t a March for Women. It was a March for Women who Vote Democrat. I wanted to randomly ask folks if they were marching for female Trump supporters too!
(Obligatory note that I do not vote. Period. It only encourages them.)
And I see that a lot from the WE crowd. They don’t mean WE. They mean WE with the Same Ideology. That’s why the WE Women are so incredibly mean to the women of the non-WE ideology.
Anyway, the point is, be careful with the WE stuff. And don’t be surprised that some folks see right through it.
David
David,
Thanks again for investing time in another thoughtful POV. I’m not a “we” advocate and I don’t like the “they” I get clumped with. It becomes a way to label people and move on, sometimes without thinking. I would hope Fangraphs is more of an idea platform. Overall IMO it is. I hope we don’t have to use qualifiers when expressing an opinion, we don’t have to down vote every opinion we disagree with, and we don’t need to respond to those we feel are trolls.
I believe most baseball fans (international) would absolutely be thrilled to see a female in the MLB. (If you’ve experienced community support for female who excels at the LL level you’ll get this…)
Opinions as to likelihood or how that should be encouraged can differ and IMO don’t make one opinion ___________ feminists or the other sexist _________. I hope we can have thoughtful exchanges with civility, ideas not labels, and without Mom and Dad (Meg and David) having to threaten to not take us to the game this weekend.
I don’t disagree with a lot of your points, but the notion that you don’t need to think about others in your identity group (men) is exactly what people say when they talk about “male privilege” or “white privilege.” Being male and white (and straight, and able-bodied, etc.) means you don’t ever have to think about those things because YOUR group is the default. (I’m also a man, so it’s my group).
Women, people of color, people with disabilities, etc. don’t have that luxury. They are constantly reminded about their identity and how it is different from the default.
dl80,
There is only Majority Privilege. Every aspect of male or white privilege is simply majority privilege and has been prevalent since the beginning of civilized society.
Who keeps reminding them of their differences? It seems to me that it’s people like you who keep reminding them, not me. This isn’t surprising. Moral outrage is closely linked to guilt. Those who feel guilty seem to have a need to correct all the perceived problems of the world. And when they are opposed they lash out, calling everyone else racists, bigots, misogynists….
Back to the topic at hand. It is very well likely the case that the chances of a woman competing in MLB are actually getting smaller, not larger, due to:
1. Specialization that is a natural outcome of increased labor sophistication resulting in the barriers to entry into athletics rising.
2. Men and women making non-coerced choices to sort themselves into different lifestyle and occupational choices – differences that also seem to increase as society gets more sophisticated.
That doesn’t mean it’s impossible for a woman to ever play in MLB. It means it’s getting less likely. Now should we be outraged over this? Meg and Sheryl seem to feel we should. And that anyone who thinks otherwise is a knuckle dragging brute who steals their french fries.
Do you see why some might find all this moral outrage a tad hypocritical?
David
Queue the clip of Lisa Simpson believing there were lots of female managers. Connie Mack, Sandy Alomar, Terry Francona, Pinky Higgins…
For those commenters and voters who are so certain that the time is ripe for women to make their way into organized baseball, I suggest that you collaborate and start an academy. It may take a while, but it took a while in the Dominican, too, and the people who run those ended up doing very, very well.
If you’re right, there’s a clear economic opportunity here for you to exploit, rather than spending your time arguing on the internet with people whose opinions you’re never going to change.
I waiver a lot on this topic – with regard to the not caring. I wonder to what extent we’ve (as a society) allowed ourselves to act so coldly. I certainly think that’s part of it. But to the extent that there’s a difference, I think a larger part of the problem is that people feel passionately about things. And “negative” responses are sure to elicit passionate rebuttals (and the same on the “positive l” side), which drives the reasonable relatively center people away from the conversation.
TLDR; I’m not sure to what extent we’ve gotten worse, as opposed to limited the conversation participants to the people at the extremes.
I say we take off and nuke this entire comments section from orbit.
It’s the only way to be sure.
I don’t want to get into a controversy about the gender distribution of alien deadliness but I suggest you look out for outliers before you dock.
FG is opting to tune out good-faith criticism on this one. It’s possible to agree with the conclusion of an argument (a woman hypothetically good enough to play MLB might be excluded from play), but think that the premises are badly flawed. Some of the arguments in the linked piece are so disingenuous at face value that the author undermined her own credibility by making them:
“The Negro Leagues, which hosted some of the greatest players of all time (Cool Papa Bell, Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige) and which, by some estimates, featured a talent level roughly equivalent to that found in the NPB, also had a number of female players right alongside the men.”
How can you possibly operate in good faith without acknowledging that the women played AFTER the color barrier was broken? This argument seems willfully deceptive, hoping that readers will assume that the quality of play was constant over the years, and that they won’t dig too far into it themselves. To re-iterate: just because this is a bad argument doesn’t mean the author’s conclusion is wrong, it just doesn’t follow from the arguments.
“Most importantly, Ramos told me that women players and women’s leagues simply aren’t scouted by MLB teams, largely due to a structural belief in front offices that they aren’t good enough. Simply put, explained Ramos, ‘these women don’t even come close to a lot of front offices’ radars.’ But Ramos was emphatic when I asked them whether there are women players good enough today to play affiliated baseball, at least in the minor leagues. ‘Yes,’ they said.”
Well, I guess that seals it. But seriously, how is this passable evidence? “Somebody I work with said it’s true, so it’s true.” I’m not doubting that Ramos COULD have significant scouting insight, but it’s incumbent on the author to prove why Ramos’s opinion is backed by expertise. Because we don’t have any proof of that at this point.
FG community is good about downvoting/ignoring needlessly rude and bigoted comments, but they have no problem letting authors know when their arguments are flawed or lazy. I was surprised at how harshly this seemingly innocuous piece about JDM and the Red Sox (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-red-sox-and-j-d-martinez-still-need-each-other/) got tweaked. Imagine making an honest effort to submit a good article and the top voted comment is “What is happening around here?” in response. I don’t think the response to Ring’s article was different – you can tell how little weight FG commenters give rude or sexist comments based on the downvotes.
I commend you for raising good-faith criticism here. But there is actually very little of that anywhere else through these comments, either in this or the other piece. The point of the other piece wasn’t women absolutely MUST be able to play in MLB. Her point was there seem to be discriminatory practices by MLB that keep them away, and these don’t seem like they’d stand up in court. The point of this piece, in turn, wasn’t “Please don’t disagree that women can play.” It was precisely that so much of the criticism of the other piece was inherently designed to illegitimize its basic premise, i.e., “If you can’t name a woman who is ready to play in MLB right now, it’s just begging for special treatment to even talk about this.” It’s the kind of thing that alienates and ostracizes new voices in a room, not the kind of thing that strengthens the quality of debate.
The following are real arguments that were offered in comments on that piece:
1. Please don’t quote Jen Mac Ramos as a “credible expert” she is clearly delusional and won’t ever address women in baseball fairly. She is a classic reactionary. She spends her whole life complaining about men.
2. The point isn’t that women *can’t* be good at baseball, the point is that no one can name even one who, based on merit, should get a chance.
3. If I had a truly gifted athlete as a daughter, I wouldn’t want her “wasting” time on baseball when there are other much more lucrative opportunities.
And then there were dozens upon dozens of “Men are stronger than women! Biology matters!” type comments. Just a minefield of bad-faith belittling of women as baseball players rather than engaging with the legal merits. And legal merits have to engage with reality, such as the existence of women’s leagues now, or the fact that women once played post-color barrier like you mention. This piece is a response to those comments, the ones that wanted to shout down the question rather than delve into its merits.
What is your point? “I want to vaguely condemn bad manners on this website”?
You can agree to the legal argument (the MLB would lose if they argued they don’t need to scout women) while also admitting it is astoundingly unlikely that there is a woman anywhere in the world right now who would deserve more than a courtesy look from a MLB scout. The real legal question is how the NCAA manages to avoid running afoul of Titlle IX by considering softball the equivalent of baseball.
It need not be precisely equal as a sport – the equivalence must be in opportunity
I mean, the real question is how the NCAA manages to flout labor law in about a dozen different ways with the full and complete blessing of the government.
And sure, I admit right now there are probably zero women who any MLB scout would see as MLB roster players. But I do not at all admit that there aren’t likely A-A+ ball players, and I would actually insist that if there are such players, it makes the organization stronger *even if those women can never reach MLB*. A good A+ catcher would make young pitchers better. A good A+ second baseman would help first basemen and shortstops explore range better. A good A+ pitcher who relies on breaking stuff over speed would teach varied hitting approaches faster. The implication of the first piece is that there are such women now. Maybe there are, maybe there aren’t, I don’t know. But the fact that MLB never, ever scouts women’s leagues tells me they’d have a weak case on this point if they tried to argue it.
And not just legally, but intellectually. When you’re already dealing with the outliers of outliers in terms of physique, the chances of finding a couple women who can hang doesn’t seem all that unlikely. There are like 7,000 players in affiliated baseball. I can’t come up with a single reason to believe that the best women baseball players on earth aren’t better than the worst of that 7,000 men who are making less than minimum wage. MLB is under no obligation to *find* the women who can make an A-ball team, but knowing they likely exist suggests they ought to be putting in at least a little bit of effort, if their goal is to develop the best possible MLB talent as efficiently as they can.
Did people actually have a problem? I would welcome it. I would enjoy it. I would also say that it is bordering on physically impossible.
I could easily see a woman knuckleballer getting to the majors.
So, is this going to be a new thing? One writer posts an article on a hotly debated topic, one that generates a fair amount of argument, discussion, and eventually various groups reaching their own conclusions which vary wildly. And the next week another writer feels inclined to spend 2000+ words lecturing us like a shoolmarm about having a strongly held opinion because it might hurt someone’s feelings?
Sorry, I want nothing to do with self flagellation. If you have an opinion, bring it, but be prepared to back it up with hypothetical and feeling. Make a convincing argument and be prepared to defend it against an opposition that wants to punch holes in your position. There are no sacred cows in baseball. Nothing is too precious to be dissected, questioned and ultimately discarded if it is determined to be of insufficient value.
I’m all for welcoming newcomers into an established community. I’m less partial to newcomers that immediately demand the community change to suit their preferences.
Judging by the response here, there are in fact a hell of a lot of sacred cows in baseball.
And I have no patience for anyone’s tears when their particular sacred cow is skewered. If you make a declaration I consider absurd, I will let you know. If you want to convince me, be prepared to back it with cogent arguments and data. If you instead respond with insults and attempts at shaming, I will disregard you as unworthy of attention.
It’s called click-baiting. 100% effective and 100% annoying.
This is fundamentally dishonest piece.
Firstly, because you write as if it was only those who were critical of the idea that went over the line into “barely repressed anger.” Any reading of the comments on that thread will find at least as many of those who agreed with Ms. Ring – and there were plenty — being snide, insulting, belittling etc. Why aren’t you concerned about them? Why is it totally fair for you to caricature the people you disagree with as “that rude fellow at the bar, eating my fries without asking”? Do you get some kind of exemption? News flash: you bring up divisive topics, people get snippy. Acting as if your side is full of gentle and patient interlocutors and the other a bunch of raging brutes is dishonest.
Secondly, the whole “There’s no turning us out of the community” whinefest is self-deceit. Nobody is trying to turn anyone out. MLB intentionally markets to women, and has for years. Sports media prioritizes finding and promoting females. Not one person in that thread expressed opposition to the idea of a woman playing if she was qualified, and in fact many said things like “It would be cool to see, but … ” Would there be some players/scouts/teams resistant to the idea of a woman player? Sure. But there would at least as many enthused by the idea (as a competitive advantage, marketing gimmick, or both). Get off the cross. It’s not 1965, you didn’t climb some great hill of sexism to get a job at Fangraphs, and a woman that was even a marginal prospect for MLB would get pursued.
Thirdly, your claim that “The baseball sin was the certainty,” and that people were guilty of too much “sureness.” This is dishonest for multiple reasons: for one, you turn right around and go into your whole quasi-religious “The first one … we can see that day she’ll make the majors” reverie. What happened to certainly being a sin? Moreover, you’re misrepresenting what people said, interpreting “highly unlikely” as “impossible.” All kinds of things are theoretically possible . We can also imagine a 400-pound player, or an 8-foot player, or a player with no arms. But it’s not “sizeist” or “ableist” or whatever to say that the odds of those things actually happening are exceedingly small, nor is it sexist to say that a woman player is similarly unlikely. They are just factual statements based on the observable data. And that data is not merely confined to baseball – as was pointed out in the comments, and not seriously disputed, there is a vast body of data from across the sports world suggests that the strength, speed, etc. difference between the sexes, including among the outliers of each sex, is in fact quite large.
Finally, the whole appeal to Fangraphs commenters to “care for each other” as “community” that will “live on imagination” is disingenuous horseshit. It’s much like when the HR exec insists that everyone at Globocorp is “family” or that we’re all “partners.” It’s manipulative twaddle peddled by someone with an agenda. In this case, your agenda is to get people who come to a website whose prime calling card is rigorous, fact-based analysis and argumentation to stop doing rigorous, fact-based analysis and argumentation of your personally cherished ideas. Not ALL personally cherished ideas, just yours – if someone proposed that black people were unsuited to management roles because they were under the biblical curse of Ham, I suspect you’d not object to the verbal disemboweling such a claim would receive. I don’t think this is a conscious dodge … but it certainly is one.
If you had a data and/or logic-based argument to make as to why any females have or are likely to ever have a plausible claim to being kept out of MLB because of their sex, you’d be making it, no doubt quite ably. You haven’t, because you don’t. But rather than reckon with the fact that biology does impose real limits on humans (all of us, every day), you instead choose to call the people meanies for not indulging your unrealistic dreams. In other words, it boils down to “don’t subject my cherished ideas to the same scrutiny you would everyone else’s, because I would feel sad” … with a pretty strong subtext of “and it’s wrong to make girls feel sad.”
Sorry, no. For good or ill, the Victorian Era is over, and we’re not going to treat you (or Ms. Ring) with kid gloves and forego telling you you’re wrong because it might make you unhappy.
I read this article as saying “We should be considerate of each other.” I don’t see how that could possibly be described as “fundamentally dishonest.”
Read the paragraph that begins “Finally.”
I see your point broadly in that paragraph, but it’s not really the same as Globocorp because Globocorp involves an exchange of services (labor) for compensation (wages and benefits). That ain’t no kinda family. It’s at-will employment, so to that end technically everyone is free to choose, but the truth is the power imbalance is almost overwhelming. You can’t get a decent job without a recommendation from a prior employer. If you’re too obstinant about random changes in your hours, Globocorp can discipline you. They offer bonuses at year end not to be kind but because it incentivizes putting the company first throughout the year, even when it conflicts with quality of life issues for you and/or your actual family. And they would terminate you on the spot, unlike an actual family, if it was in their financial interest to do so.
The Fangraphs community, such as it is, is a bunch of people who come here to talk about baseball and the issues around it intelligently. Maybe you think they/we are doing it well and maybe you think not, but most of these commenters, you and I included, are a bunch of pseudonymous people who think baseball is an interesting thing to analyze. And alongside that, we enjoy a good laugh about it from time to time, as Notgraphs comments demonstrate quite clearly. We’re here, voluntarily, with very little individual power dynamic at work among us pseudonyms, because of a common interest. We inform, provoke, and entertain each other. We are very much a community. “People who come to a website whose prime calling card is rigorous, fact-based analysis and argumentation,” as you put it, is a perfectly adequate definition of a community.
The one thing that creates a power dynamic is ganging up. Sometimes it’s against someone writing in transparently bad faith, and everyone downvotes it or comments angrily. Sometimes it’s someone being boring in comments, and everyone downvotes it. Ganging up by a community can, in fact, be warranted. There’s nothing wrong with it as such. It’s how communities keep people in or out. It’s at least part of how they define their boundaries: what are the things that cause us to gang up against someone else? Then those things must define our community.
And in this case, the suggestion is that writing about the legal question of whether MLB can, as it appears to, discriminate against women as participants is outside the bounds of the community. Alternatively, maybe you think the piece that preceded this one is in bad faith or boring. And that’s fine. But there is a crowd to be pleaded with, and that’s what Meg is doing here. It is a community, and she’s asking something of it. What she has observed, accurately or not, is that the preceding post received comments that amounted to ganging up on someone for raising an issue that is both legally contentious and emotionally charged but is decidedly about the practice of baseball and the semi-rational way it interacts with the law, which is itself only semi-rational. And there’s nothing wrong with asking people to … not do that. It’s not anti-rigor or anti-facts to ask that. The law isn’t math. The law requires some abstraction that math frequently doesn’t. Good-faith objection to the material of that piece was always welcome. Saying “there isn’t a woman alive who could play in MLB” isn’t a good-faith objection, precisely because of the things Sheryl wrote. And that’s what this piece is responding to. Again, maybe you think it goes too far or doesn’t take up those objections in a way that is analytically clean. Feel free to discuss that. But appealing to the decency of a community isn’t in any way improper just because the community likes analysis.
“I see your point broadly in that paragraph, but it’s not really the same as Globocorp because Globocorp involves an exchange of services (labor) for compensation (wages and benefits). That ain’t no kinda family. ”
No, it isn’t; that’s the point. But neither is Fangraphs a “community” where we care for each other’s feelings more than we care about finding the truth. We come here for facts, data, and rationality. That doesn’t mean people should be dicks to each other — because that’s just another kind of irrationality — but it does mean we don’t hold back on facts or arguments because they would make someone uncomfortable.
“The one thing that creates a power dynamic is ganging up. …What she has observed, accurately or not, is that the preceding post received comments that amounted to ganging up on someone for raising an issue…”
Bullshit. There were at least as many people, if not more , agreeing with Ms. Ring’s article in the comments as disagreeing with her, just as there are in this comment section. Other Fangraphs writers entered to support Ms. Ring, just as the publisher has here. And there are far more personal aspersions being cast at those who dissent than with those who agree. See the comment beneath this one for an example.
“And in this case, the suggestion is that writing about the legal question of whether MLB can, as it appears to, discriminate against women as participants is outside the bounds of the community. Alternatively, maybe you think the piece that preceded this one is in bad faith or boring. ”
Nonsense. Nobody has said the topic was out of bounds or taboo. What we’ve said is that the first article more or less took as given an extremely debatable proposition that was given no empirical support, or even a serious argument. And now this one seeks to declare that those of us who pointed out the problems with the first one are all bad people for doing so.
Wow you’re angry. I wonder: Are you so angry all the time, or is there something about this series of articles that particularly angers you? And which is worse?
Yes, I’m just full of boiling rage. But you forgot to also mention
– I’ve never kissed a girl
– I live in my mother’s basement
– I voted for Trump
– I flip burgers
– I beat my wife
– I have a small penis
Please try to include more of these in the future.
I can guarantee that both authors climbed great hills of sexism to get a job at Fangraphs and to achieve anything else they have, and if you cannot understand or admit that, you are incredibly ignorant.
can’t speak to their previous lives, but you can almost guarantee fangraphs was explicitly (or at least preferentially) looking for female contributors in their recent hires.
and i fully support that, but let’s not be disingenuous.
@frangipard [slow clap]
This response may get buried under 150 others, but it’s worth saying anyway:
I’ve been reading here for a long, LONG time. If not a decade, then close to it. And in that time, I’ve enjoyed reading and learning from the comments and commenters as much as the writers themselves – sure, there was always a troll or three, but for the most part, these comments were different than other places, sports or otherwise. People were gracious, and well read, and patient with others. The conversation rarely got derailed by nonsense. And it was great – so great that I rarely had anything to add, because it was so nice to just listen and learn.
Something fundamentally changed recently. I don’t know if it was Dave and Eno and the rest leaving; I dont know if something just collectively snapped in people. But the comments now seem to be as critical and hostile as anything anywhere else. We’ve had pieces ripped apart in a way I never saw before, conspiracy theories, mass downvotes for dissenting opinions, strange political nonsense, and even – and this piece alludes to – sexism and bigotry.
The new writers – Meg and Jay and Sheryl and the rest – have been FANTASTIC. But I’m reading less and less, because the comment sections bum me out. I don’t want to take traffic away from the site or writers, because it isn’t their fault. But I don’t have enough patience or time in the day for hostility and shenanigans on a site about baseball. It’s just emotionally easier to spend my free time elsewhere online. And that sucks.
I don’t know what there is to be done. But what was once a draw to the site is now something keeping me away. And I can’t imagine I’m the only one.
You’re not the only one. Thank you for expressing my exact feelings so eloquently. I agree with every word you wrote.
And not that anyone should care, but I feel like something very important has been taken away from me. Outside of work, where I mostly sit alone in front of a computer, I’m completely isolated. FanGraphs made me feel like I was part of a community, and Dave, Jeff, August, Szymborski, et al. were the friends I’ve always wished I had.
I keep thinking about the commenter who said a few years ago that they were going to kill themselves when they got home from work that day and thanked FanGraphs for being the only positive thing in their life. The outpouring of support and compassion was overwhelming, and I was so proud to be a member of such an amazing community. Alas, nothing gold can stay.
I don’t know if I totally agree. I remember things being more thoughtful here a few years back — though not necessarily always kinder or friendlier. I don’t remember the halcyon days as super-supportive or welcoming the way you guys seem to, but I do remember the days when the comments were a little smarter. I feel like there was a single noticeable, in fact pretty giant, shift in the direction of stupidity when the articles started getting linked from ESPN or Fox Sports or whatever big sports-media site it first was.
Apart from that I don’t know if I see any sea changes, even recently, that aren’t at least somewhat explicable by the content that people are responding to (say, a certain author refusing to acknowledge a critique of his account of the offseason free-agent market, or a disagreement about prospect valuation or trade valuation or a team’s projections, whatever). And it’s not like it was once a more unanimous place politically. The commenter base here has always, as far as I recall, been pretty starkly divided on labor politics, economics, and the MLBPA, no news there; similarly with Latin American politics when it comes up and US race-politics when it does — and the Internet as a whole and the sports Internet in particular have some pretty big, uh, issues with gender, that doesn’t really seem like news to me either. However lamentable this stuff is — and I lament it too — I’m not sure it feels new to me.
My observation is that for years I rarely saw comments questioning a writer’s honesty or integrity. Now, it seems to be a daily occurrence.
Did the commenters change or the writers?
@ashlandateam – I agree so strongly with your comment that I went through the trouble of creating a new account so I can actually comment here. You see, apparently someone thought it would be nice to flag my comments to the point that I am now “ghost-banned” from making any comments on this site…anything I posted under my original username now is stuck in permanent “Comment awaiting moderation” mode.
I hope you get to see this comment before the hostile troll gets my new account ghost-banned (if that happens, I will leave Fangraphs for good).
tz
Someone should fix this. I mean, the comment sections bring me to fangraphs as much as the content. Good, smart, commenters like you have a ton of value to this site.
Thanks for the kind words Big Chief!
The change is not the writers. The change is our society. One group won an election and feels emboldened to share their ideas, the other feels the election was only won because they were to content to not call out bad faith when they saw it.
Some things in our culture have been refuges from politics. That isn’t going to continue, at least not in the near-term future.
It doesn’t have anything to do with Fangraphs; it’s happening everywhere that people who aren’t in the same bubble are talking.
Sure it is Mike. Sure it is. Just keep telling yourself all the angels are on your side. And thn wonder why no one thinks you argue in good faith.
He’s not taking sides. Just pointing out that when people from either side step outside of their particular social bubble, conflict is an inevitable side-effect. It can be an unpleasant experience but is an essential component of learning to peacefully live with individuals from all ends of the philosophical spectrum.
Meg,
Thanks for this, from one baseball-loving woman to another.
I try not to read the comments, and accordingly I rarely post. I enjoy analysis but I am not a member of the community, not really.
I think you have some good ideas here, and like any good ideas subject to analysis, they need evidence. For at least the idea that confidence is not a meaningful claim of accuracy, it is worth considering confirmation bias, specifically myside bias. Myside bias is the filtration of evidence based on one’s own beliefs: we ignore or become hypercritical of things that do not conform to our beliefs and accept without question that which confirms them. This is highly related to the overconfidence you noted in comments.
Here is a fine beginning overview: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/
A person’s confidence that they do not believe something does not mean anything.
http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2009-02753-019
A person being confident does not mean that he or she is correct.
http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2006-02910-002
In fact, in some cases, confidence works directly against accuracy.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597808000460
So the next time you have that hypothetical fellow in the bar who ignores your arguments and analysis, confident already that you are wrong, remember at least that there is good analysis that his claims to accuracy have no grounding. It is analysis that matters for an argument, for accuracy. It is our care that marks our character.
Ring’s piece was great and so is yours. Sorry you and other women have the bear the brunt of internet hate. The articles on the site were getting a bit stale before you came along.
I think it would certainly be interesting to see the first female professional baseball player in any of the KBO, NPB, MLB leagues. My guess is that the first professional female player will likely be a hitter who has exceptional plate discipline and is a middle infielder (could be Melissa Mayeux).
the internet is generally good at letting people be exactly as horrible as they are. it’s just the way it is.
This is the thin end of the wedge, isn’t it? I’ve seen this tactic deployed more often recently, and it’s always an ugly harbinger. This using a handful of jerk-ass people to discredit an entire side of the conversation. It’s antithetical to open inquiry, as the tactic’s subtext seems to be “and if you resemble those jerks in any way, why, you’re just as bigoted and warped and as guilty of wrongthink as them.”
It’s just unimaginable that this kind of wimpy, low level crap would have flown under Cameron, and those of us that observe these well-trod steps into ideology are understandably agitated. Really, we just suffered through a wave of myopic crap about baseball and labor, and now we’re pivoting to baseball and gender politics. It all feels like a bunch of test cases to reshape this site’s traffic demographic.
Of course, it’s not really that. It’s worse. We now likely have an entire staff of writers who hew toward a particular political persuasion and the ideology that comes with it, and those who don’t line up with it are getting the oh-so-predictable and oh-so-boring accusations of bigotry. If you’re not expressing your criticism of a woman-as-player in baseball in the most gentle way possible, with head bowed and palms up, then you’re hurting FG’s feelings and should probably submit yourself for reprocessing.
You’d really have to be an insecure neanderthal to not want to eventually see a woman do something cool in baseball. That would be neat! Now, how about not engaging in a feelings-vs-feelings battle with those dopes and dragging down this site’s weakening credibility as a place of open discussion.
Sheryl writes a single article, Meg writes a follow-up focused on reader comments, and you conclude that FanGraphs is “pivoting to baseball and gender politics.” Do you expect to be taken seriously?
I expect little from internet conversation, so I certainly don’t expect most people here to take each other seriously. One only need scroll up and see frivolous accusations of fascist thinking, bigotry, sexism and conspiracy to note that FG is much like any other tribal swamp. It was just better contained before this whiplash into ideologically-fraught topics.
And yes, this is a pivot toward gender politics. What is this long, mealy-mouthed emotional appeal, complete with a bit of shaming tone, if not a dip into gender politics? FG, in a very un-FG like way, jammed open the notion of women’s roles in baseball (as players) as clumsily as one could, and followed up that clumsy first pass with finger wagging at anyone who delivered harsh criticism.
It’s what writers do when they don’t want to go through the tough work of evidencing a difficult, possibly impossible, hypothesis. Just toss it in the room, wait for a few people to get riled up, point to those people as a sign that the other side isn’t conversing in good faith, sit back and let the praise and atta-boys/girls rain down on your head, win support for the hypothesis without ever demonstrating its veracity in any convincing way. It’s a common rhetorical trick that is so effective now that I’m not even sure anyone here is doing it consciously.
Don’t you think it’s odd that we’re not more than a couple months removed from a massive shake-up in staff composition at FG, and we’re already getting our first shame on you piece? It’s almost like once you homogenize your staff ideologically, the emotional argumentation floats through the filter. I truly don’t believe any of this is conspiratorial, but just what happens when a lot of people from the same echo chamber work with each other. You see it everywhere, but I suppose it’s still jarring to see it work its way into the once-inviolable levelheadedness that is supposed to define FG.
Meg you make my day! Thank you so much for this discussion.
The lack of women in professional baseball is due to the lack of women in amateur baseball.
The lack of women in amateur baseball is due to the lack of segregation in baseball, not the lack of integration. It discourages all but the most elite athletes from playing, thus preventing the establishment of an active environment.
Failing to acknowledge this means you are doing more to prevent women from playing baseball than any barriers put up by the MLB.
This is a fantastic piece. Thanks, Meg.
I’ve been reading Fangraphs pretty thoroughly for probably a decade or so, though I tend to only come out and comment once or twice a year. Here’s one of them.
My pathway to sabermetrics was Tom Tango—his stuff came up on internet searches, I went out and bought The Book, and then I slowly came to know more and more of the sabermetric corners of the internet. Baseball’s great, and I love math, but what really drew me in was the intellectual discussions, especially at Tango’s site with his “straight arrow” readers. MGL personifies this—what matters is the truth, you follow the data, and when you find something that contradicts your previous best guess, there’s nothing personal about that. That’s the point! That’s how learning works, that’s how intellectual discussions work, that’s the scientific method. Embracing the uncertainty.
It’s amazing how we keep approaching the truth, closer and closer, and yet everything’s still a big unknown. We have forecasting systems, and pitch f/x, and statcast, and still we are surprised by the Murphys and Turners and Altuves suddenly turning new corners we didn’t expect to see.
The sabermetric community has been one of the few places where I could go to find this self-disinterested pursuit of the truth. You can see the joy of discovery when an unexpected pattern is found (see almost everything Jeff Sullivan writes), and then you see JUST AS MUCH joy of discovery when that pattern you were so proud to discover is revealed to be an artifact of randomness (as so much is), because we now know more. Because we know more!
So this article got right to the core of what the sabermetric community means to me—open-minded, imaginative truth-seeking with an open acknowledgement of the uncertainty of it all.
And both of these posts got right to the core of my feminism, which is also rooted in imagining what we do not know yet, refusing to regard conventional wisdom as certainty without evidence (hello Bill James), and seeking equal rights and fairness based on TRUTH. No, we don’t know whether a woman can play at the major league level, but every year baseball teams try players who turn out to not be able to hack it. The example of Jose Altuve has been brought out ad nauseam, but baseball has always been the sport that prides itself on the diversity of “athlete” types that somehow manage to keep up. We take joy in watching catchers run, and potbellied pitchers throw, and yes, short MPVs win the World Series.
I’ll embrace the uncertainty, but it seems highly probable that the best women athletes on the planet, if they’d spent their youth playing and breathing baseball instead of other sports, if they’d played in competitive collegiate baseball seasons, and trained in rookie leagues, and worked through the minors playing baseball every summer, that they would be able to perform above, or at the very least, AT replacement level. Which is to say, they could make it in the majors.
There’s no certainty about it, but it’s clear you don’t need to be at the physical peak of male size and strength to play in the major leagues. And even if she comes in the form of a knuckleball pitcher, that’s not some cheap trick, it’s not an asterisk. Every year, a whole slew of pitchers throw their last innings in the majors, failing to take hold. Every so often, we hear of one who reinvents themselves with a knuckleball. Do you think they’re the only ones who tried that? It’s not easy. Getting major league hitters out is hard, whatever your repertoire, so there’s no reason for the condescension I’ve seen from some regarding a potential female knuckleballer.
Anyway, this rambled a lot, so here’s the point I really wanted to make. Thank you for writing these posts. Thank you, Fangraphs, for hiring female baseball writers and widening the viewpoints you give us. Thank you, writers, for excellent writing (I loved your 2B write-up today!). Thank you, female baseball fans, for loving this sport and holding on to those hopes and that spark of imagination. I, too, dream your dreams. And don’t ever believe you don’t belong in the fandom. I feel sad that I live in a world where it’s a transcendent accomplishment that more women are making a living writing about baseball, because I hate how controlling and dismissive my fellow males have been over the centuries. Tom Tango and sabermetrics have helped me realize that the inertia of the-way-it’s-always-been-done holds way too much sway in the world. But that just makes it more important to raise my voice to say that you don’t have to fight alone any more. I care; so many of us care. And that’s the most important thing I’ll have to communicate to this community all year.
The above comment might be the best one in this whole thread, and it’s a shame that it’s buried so deep. It deserves to be a full post of its own. Well said!
I’ve been here for years. To start – Apologies to Carson, but Meg is the best writer this site has ever had. Not the best analyst (pour one out for Dave, who knew Hosmer was using JDM’s hitting coach before we all did), not the best chat host (raise a glass of beer that’s too expensive and too bitter in memory of Eno), but she’s the most skilled long form writer, and by a wide margin. I’m glad she’s here.
Re: this article. I am mostly surprised by the surprise. Fangraphs has for years steered well clear of all things social/politics. Bringing a lawyer on to write about law was bound to change this, as law is the end result of the social/political process. Law and politics are inseparable. And the level of passion (and/or vitriol) in the comments to these two not-devoid-of-politics articles is frankly pretty tame for the subject matter. Harsh for fangraphs, but not surprising.
Re: this topic. Will there ever be a female MLB player? I’m not sure, but I think probably not. I agree with several other commenters about meritocracy in sports (Michael F’ing Jordan embarrassed himself in AA and was quietly shown the exit). Having (and sharing) this viewpoint does not make you a bigot, or sexist. IMO, it is the viewpoint most easily extrapolated from historical data, and fangraphs dot com is nothing if not a place where data drives the discussion.
But, while I’m not sure if a woman will ever play in the MLB, I’m absolutely POSITIVE no woman will ever play in the MLB if the MLB doesn’t at least try to provide a path. And why wouldn’t they want to? Sure, it costs money to build a pipeline for girls and young women, but it’s also a great investment in potential future fans. The NFL encourages girls to play youth flag football, and no sane person could argue that the physical barriers of MLB are more tilted towards men than the physical barriers of the NFL.
Providing the opportunity is in everyone’s best interests. From there, let the meritocracy settle it.
I’ve been here since the beginning. Followed Dave from USSM. I’m so glad Meg writes here. And I want every MRA to die alone, broken and marginalized. I know it’s bad but that’s where I’m at in 2018.
“And I want every MRA to die alone, broken and marginalized.”
I applaud your honesty.
I feel bad for agreeing with you. But there it is anyway.
Comments on blogs generally reflect society at large. Lets face it, many people are Intolerant. More than that, they are certain their intolerance is justified because they know they are right. Ignorance is basically the certainty one is knowledgable. Nothing worse than ignorant intolerance. Discussions on some boards are nothing more than exchanges of insults. Few people are open to other ideas. On one board I no sooner post a 300 word comment than I see the message 1 person is typing now for a reply. Couldn’t have read 2 sentences before hitting reply. FG commenters are a bit more gentle and thoughtful, but the downvote shows not really much more so.
Now as to if MLB will have a woman. I am a big believer in the bell curve. Most men cant play MLB. Only 0.01% have the phyiscal ability and skills. 0.001% become stars. Women are less strong than men, on average. An article here recently said strength is one of the most important requirements for MLB players (besides talent and skill) They are shifted far to the left on the bell curve physically so while some women might very well be stronger than some men, its unlikely any woman will be in the top 0.01% of men without enhancement.
There are also certain logistical factors. Baseball is a business. Scouting women takes money. Owners don’t like to spend money without an expected return. There are also issues with having a women in the minors when it comes to locker facilities and accommodation on the road. Minor league owners are businessmen. Then of course, club house chemistry , maternity leave , etc.
Some of these same arguments were used by MLB teams for segregation but the negro leagues and barn storming proved to owners that African Americans were as talented as whites. After they got over their fears on attendance drops within a decade every MLB team had a person of color in the minors and majors. As business men you can bet MLB would be all over a qualified woman player considering the potential attendance jumps. Imagine Marlins or Rays attendance with a decent woman SS?
There is also a question of female intelligence. How many would take the risk of giving up 5 years of a career to play minor league ball for 1100 dollars a month knowing there was only a 5% chance or or less of being a MLB player long enough to make much more than the minimum? They are smart too. This is probably why we never see woman umpires. Woman are certainly capable of being umpires. Why are we ignoring something which actually is possible beyond hoping for a genetic miracle that a woman MLBer would be?
Maybe it (woman player) happens , but why do we care?. I watch baseball as a white man color blind, and never even think about gender. That said, a woman player in MLB would have me watching more of that teams games.
On a similar note. African American players are becoming a rarity. Teams have baseball camps for Latino players in their countries. Why dont they have the same in the US for African Americans and poor whites/hispanics. Is this not the same thing as teams like the Red Sox not bothering to send scouts to urban centers out of apathy to signing African Americans after the negro leagues dissolved?
And woman umpires. Why isnt that happening? It should have happened decades ago.
“What’s more, we are playing it. Some of us are getting pretty good. And when we see little girls throw a ball around, when we see one more steely-eyed pip, another little one who doesn’t yet know what to do with her limbs, but does know that whatever it will be, it will be baseball, baseball over all other games, when we see that, we can imagine a great many things. We’re back at the beginning, holding close our uncertainty. And somewhere between what we know, and what we’ve yet to prove impossible, we can see her. The first one.”
This really sold me. I’d never even thought of it that way either. Im a man, but I know what some of these feelings are like. Honestly, I hope it happens. I love this beautiful paragraph, and because it came from the heart, it touched mine. Good stuff.
Women are an under valued asset in Major League Baseball. I can’t think of a topic of discussion or subject more relevant to this site than the inclusion of women in baseball.
Thank you for the thoughtful article.
Sooner or later, there’s going to be a woman strong enough, fast enough, agile enough, talented enough to make it past the thousands of men who want a place on a Major League roster. There’s no reason why that can’t happen. The fastest women’s sprinters now put up times that would have met or surpassed the times run by men a century ago. We’ve been telling women forever what they shouldn’t be–doctors, professors, Senators and Governors, mathematicians, judges, physicists. And we men have been wrong. I’d like to go with my daughter to that first MLB game when the “gender barrier” is broken. And as for debating it, there’s a difference between saying “I don’t see how that can happen” and being angry over the possibility that it could.
Thank you for this article. It is forever worthwhile to advocate decency and care as guideposts for how we interact with each other. The reaction from some — sneering, dismissive, impolite and faux offended — is not less disheartening for being predictable. Even in this context, when asked the question, “can we not all pretend at civility?”, the answer, for some, is to chuck spears and sling stones. And that frightens me. The issue is well known, the observation in a comments section trite, but what the internet has made of our coping skills is nonetheless lamentable for being pervasive and unyielding.
There are three key points that I think are worth reflecting on with this article:
1. The community that Meg mentions is more diverse than most of us think, and it’s always important to practice empathy for people that may be very different from us. I have no emotional attachment to the idea of a female big leaguer, and so I might treat the topic brusquely – we should all remember that there are people in our community who take it VERY seriously, and be courteous and civil about it.
2. There is a segment of angry misogynists in society, and many of them populate things like comment sections. It’s a legitimate tragedy, but it also isn’t a surprise or anything new.
3 I think Meg is right in making the very nuanced point in #1 and the blatant truth in #2. But there have been a lot of comments here – including the Dark Overlord himself – that are essentially frowning upon commentators making strong judgments, and thus committing the “sin of baseball certainty” as anti-Jamesian, anti-Fangraphsian enlightenment. That’s totally wrong.
Citing evidence and reason to dismiss farfetched ideas is what we do here. The idea that Eric Hosmer deserved and would receive $200 million this winter -by virtually all reasoned argument – was faaaar more probable than a woman playing in MLB, yet when it was bashed as the specious argument it was, I don’t remember anyone lining up to complain against “certainty” in baseball. Saying that it’s incredibly improbable (and thus not being in favor of expanding the entire baseball development infrastructure to accommodate women) using evidence and reason is hardly a sin of any kind, if done curteousley and civilly.
Let’s not conflate what we’re talking about here – there are trolls, and there are good-hearted commenters who could use a bit of empathy and I’m glad Meg is here to provide it. Let’s not be upset that the debate on something posited as a thought experiment was clipped and one-sided because the weight of evidence and argument stands on one clear side.
Meg, I’m crying right now reading this. This is such a tremendous and important article. It moved me and I hope it moves others as well.
I can’t wait to teach my daughter (or son, or non-gendered little person) the game I love so much. And I’ll fight for them if my child is not allowed to play for a silly reason like gender. Maybe they won’t have the skills to keep up with the game (much like their father), but they should have a fair chance like all the others.
You can have my fries, Meg. This was very well put. This community is much better with voices like yours in it.
this honestly might be the most self-righteous thing I have ever read.
I’d like to put forth that the upvote/downvote system is partially to blame. Makes it very easy for commenters to be tribal and pile on to anyone who violates a norm. And let’s be honest, the ‘norms’ of fangraphs commenting are not exactly in line with what would be preferred in a community of mutual respect and discussion. If they were, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
I am glad you wrote this, though I have zero confidence that it will persuade any of the negative commenters that they should consider what they post beforehand.
This article could have benefited from a little bit of self-awareness on the side of Fangraphs. Not saying you particularly, but many Fangraphs writers including the most famous until about a month ago (Dave Cameron), have been known to be viciously dismissive or downright mean during chats (when they could have simply not posted the question) and also in comments sections.
Part of your problem – 3rd person, you and the new BP as a whole – is the bar you’ve come into. We regulars here are – well, were – used to Bill James type discussions. Prior to becoming a poor criminologist, James was basically about figuring how to generate/ then generating objective knowledge applicable to baseball questions folks were interested in. James cited the Chicago Economics School approach as his model. Now, courtesy of Appelman’s new business model, all we get from you newbies is one opinion piece after another after another. Yeah, some of us have reacted poorly to that.
With respect to the comment section indicated in the article I couldn’t agree more, I’ve been coming to this site for years now and the ebb and flow of the commentators has been interesting. It started very benign and idea’s were often started by a comment thread (I had this happen on a couple occasions in the past and its quite flattering), Jeff S still does this periodically. Then the site became a little more popular and you had to register your nick and for some reason the comments starting becoming more venomous and since being able to contribute financially to the site the comments are just unbelievable and I’m convinced intentionally inflammatory. The comment section used to be my favorite part of the site, interaction with like minded people and a disagreement usually ended in an agreement to disagree and maybe an article, nowadays if you say anything people disagree with it becomes monkeys flinging poop at each other and down voted to hell – which although stupid still doesn’t feel great – these days I often opt to not interact at the same level I used to due in part to this.
This is one of the best things I’ve ever read. Thank you so much. I’ve wanted it to be real too, and you’ve given me such beautiful language and images to recall as I hope for it.
I feel my position towards the Ring’s artcile was probably the majority of the reader’s positions . Having a woman in the major leagues wouldn’t bother me, asking the question of wether a woman should be in the major state league doesn’t bother me, but the justifications Ring used to why a woman is fully capable of playing in the major leagues was absolutely stupid. If there isn’t a woman who could play at the big league level, and their migt be I just havent heard of her yet, then let her play. But if you say something as stupid as Jose Altuve is small so a woman scan play Major League Baseball, then expect a negative result.
I really have no problem with women playing baseball, or the discussion of why a woman isn’t playing Major League Baseball. My negative response to the article was only about how horrible the logic and terrible justifications for why a woman can play major league baseball. There could be a legitimate justification for why women are fully capable of playing Major League Baseball, but Ring certainly did not bring it up her article.
Thank you for this Meg, it was beautiful. Lots of non-baseball people I know enjoyed it
I hadn’t read the original article before reading this one. I also haven’t read through the comments of the original. Meg seems to be wondering why people were defensive. I notice Jen Mac Ramos was cited in the original paper. A look at some of her thoughts on men, via her twitter:
“ugh he is? i’m not necessarily surprised just disappointed and UGH white men”
“”you’re not being inclusive!” “you’re being sexist toward men” do…do these people not realize how much power cismen have and how much damage cismen have done or”
“Sexism towards men is not a thing, fyi.”
“actually, all men are bad until proven otherwise, so. yeah.”
“here’s the thing: ALL men are complicit in aiding rapists/abusers/harassers unless they publicly denounce their friends who are rapists/abusers/harassers. ALL men are.”
“So of course it turns out he’s an IRL creep because men are bad”
I recommend that Fangraphs distance themselves from hateful people like Jen Mac Ramos if they hope to have productive, positive dialogue. She’s a key piece to the article in question, and has said more disgusting, heinous things than almost anything posted in these comments sections. Be the change you want to see, Fangraphs. Choose your company wisely.
Uh, doesn’t Ramos write for The Hardball Times, the managing editor of which is Meg Rowley, the author of this very piece?
How in the world can Rowley continue to employ someone as grossly racist and sexist as Ramos? What in the absolute HELL? What is going on with this site? How is this remotely okay?
I’m not sure what their arrangement is, but Ramos does contribute to HBT. Frankly, articles like this are difficult to digest from the same people who welcome Ramos into the community with open arms.
If a male FG writer acted the way Ramos does, but towards women, there’s no doubt in my mind that he’d be shunned from the community, and in short order lose his position at Fangraphs. And I think that would be appropriate.
There are undoubtedly posters here, albeit a very small minority, who have nothing to add but hate and negativity. But articles like this are bordering on hypocritical when the author gives Jen Mac Ramos a platform. She says things as close-minded as the most hateful comments here, and is completely accepted by the authors of these two articles. If Fangraphs is concerned about the tone with which conversations are had, the very first place to look when it comes to correcting it is in the mirror. They’re not doing that right now.
I think this deserves a response from the author. It doesn’t seem right to call others out for being intolerant when you endorse the work of someone who is equally, if not more so, bigoted in the other direction. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.
Let me first say that yes, i saw some stubbornness, and even some meanness in the comment section of Ring’s initial article. I also found it not that much worse than other articles that create sharp disagreement among this community. May I offer this: When you mix politics with baseball you are going to draw the ire of this community EVERY SINGLE TIME. One of the many reasons that some of us, particularly those who don’t identify ourselves as politically left (but I’m sure were not the only ones), enjoy sports is that sports, in and of itself, is manifestly UN-political. We don’t watch sports to find out where our favorite 3rd baseman stands on political issues. We don’t care. We don’t care if it’s women or men playing 3rd base either. We care that he or she is a good hitter, runs the bases well, and fields their position. We care if they contribute to wins for our team.
Yet in the last few months, Fangraphs has been a propaganda mouthpiece for the left, arguing that teams should spend unwisely on free agents, and ignore service time considerations even though they are following the rules in the CBA, and helping their teams in the process. And now Ms. Rowley is offended that some people argue strongly (and perhaps insensitively) the obvious – Women are on average 52% as strong in the upper body and 66% as strong in the lower body as men (Source: Miller, McDougal, et al). When scouting 18 year old players, much of the tool grades rely on projection – growing into power, velocity, etc. Often its a crap shoot – most of these players don’t work out. With limited resources, were would the reasonable team spend them? They aren’t going to scout young women because the chances are so small that anything every comes out of it that its a waste of time and money. It seems like this point was missed in the Title IX discussion. And it is an obvious point. I wonder if this point is missed because the political left doesn’t want to acknowledge the differences between men and women. I think because many of us want sports free of politics (whether that ever truly happens is another thing), and because we think obvious points like I brought up get ignored, we conclude that perhaps truth is not the goal of some of these articles, but something else – something agenda driven. And honestly, I think that might be where the irritation and anger turn into the spectacle that we witness on some of these comment sections. I could be wrong.
I think its perfectly acceptable to dream on a women someday being good enough to play MLB baseball. The odds are stacked against them, but i think it would be cool. I often wonder how Serena Williams would have done in her prime on the Men’s tour – and I think it is tennis where we might see a women try to compete with men first. Anyway, I’d love to be in the marketing department for the team where that first women made her debut. I’d also love to be the owner of that team – there is significant money to be made in that situation. I think the way it finally could happen would be that if there was a female professional league that gained some momentum, and they had a truly dominant player in that league. Since all the resources that were used to get to that point were someone else’s, then I could see the scouting department of my favorite team say, “Hey, she might have a chance…let’s see what happens.” And off we go.
Fully agree. And I am very left of center. The whole premise of this article is illogical — and frankly, and embarrassment to FG.
This is a disappointing article. If some previous commenters became personally insulting Fangraphs can ban them. But the article seems to use those outliers to shame the very many reasonable arguments made why women cannot compete at the MLB level. The insinuation is that we’re supposed to not make those arguments because the dream of women in MLB “means something” to the author.
The author claims that women are not given the opportunity to play baseball. Others pointed out that women play many other sports (eg basketball) but cannot compete with the best male professionals. The only response to that argument is to say baseball is somehow “different.” Which quite frankly is insulting to baseball players.
Competitive billiards is sex segregated. So is professional darts. Let’s integrate those leagues before we declare that being a pitcher or a shortstop isn’t all that “physical.” It’s an advatage for pitchers to be tall, and to be able to throw hard. The fact that some pitchers throw slower pitches in order to put more movement on the ball does not show otherwise. Roger Federer’s serve is slower than a lot of women’s, but it’s harder to return.
One can always keep pointing to the all-powerful social forces as an excuse why the MLB isn’t gender integrated. (After all, women could play in the MLB tomorrow if the League ordered it, they just wouldn’t be competitive.) Essentially it’s a non-falsifiable claim, so make use of it. But it doesn’t seem that convincing.
This hits the nail on the head to me. This is Fangraphs, a site and community whose entire existence is based on fact-based, verifiable, statistic driven analysis. These articles, and many others like them in recent weeks, are the exact opposite of that. They are think pieces making strongly opinionated, controversial claims and statements with nothing to support the claim.
If an author analyzed a player or team like that, they’d rightfully receive the scorn from this community because that isn’t what this community is about. Why should this subject matter be any different? I would love nothing more than to see a woman in Major League Baseball competing at the same level as her peers. I do not believe it will ever happen, I do not believe it should ever happen and I do not believe it is MLB’s responsibility to make it happen. Every professional sport is segregated by sex, this is not a baseball problem, nor do I think it is a problem at all.
If there are excessively vile, sexist, personally insulting comments, Fangraphs can and should police it. I think our community does a pretty good job of shunning those who are vile and insulting. Thinking that professional sports should be segregated by sex is not sexist. Thinking that professional sports should not be responsible for making social change is not sexist. We certainly don’t need the entire community lectured to for having opinions about an article meant to elicit opinions. Especially when the subject matter is something that is, at this point, completely unrealistic and hypothetical. This content does not belong on Fangraphs, it belongs on Bleacher Report.
I rather enjoyed Sheryl’s article (and all the other articles with legal analysis) because it provided historical baseball facts and stats and framed them in a legal argument, something that fits perfectly in Fangraphs.
The Fangraphs community is a stat based, black and white, just the facts ma’am group of people. If someone jumps in the comments with a “(Player) sucks because Red Sox players all suck” in an article about how good JD Martinez is, we can all summarily downvote him or her into oblivion because the article just showed us precisely how and why JD Martinez is good with no gray area. The same thing happened in the comments on Sheryl’s post, this community downvoted the bad takes into oblivion and well thought out criticism was appreciated and upvoted, even if it completely disagreed with the content of the article. That is what this community is and has always been.
*THIS* article however, does no such thing. It is an opinion piece. An opinion piece that throws around words like sin right off that bat and gets on a soapbox and preaches to us about how we should feel and react. It reads like a political speech. There will always be bad takes on the internet. As long as a comment section exists, a bad take will be found in it.
This “community” does a very good job about policing its own, starting an article equating this community and sin in the first paragraph is absurd. It isn’t that the community has become more vitriolic, it is that the content routinely being introduced these days is meant solely to elicit opinions, often about controversial topics, from a community based entirely on facts and stats. What, exactly, does this author (and Fangraphs in general) expect is going to happen?
This article is truly embarrassing. Begging readers to adopt an outlier view of a landlord/tenant lawyer. WTF.
There are no woman even remotely good enough to even spend time/$ for the minors let alone MLB. To show just how bad it is, we played a local traveling team of women that were supposed to be good, who often were in the paper stating they should be drafted, and destroyed them 5 games to Zero, as a high school team. It isn’t even remotely close.
Oh boy. Something tells me Ring and Rowley will be quietly ignoring this comment and hope it fades away.
Thanks Meg, this is great
I never saw the article in question by Sheryl, but I’ve really enjoyed the articles I have seen by her. In fact, I believe she’s having an immediate, invaluable impact to both baseball and Fangraphs.
That said, I’m glad Meg wrote this article. Spearheading the responses she described is a must with this topic, and though I’m sure some people won’t get it, won’t care, or find it amusing, I believe the overwhelming majority, will. This is a community and there’s a place for everyone who can contribute. Common courtesy and respect isn’t too much to ask. It bums me out that a reminder was even necessary.
So, props to both Sheryl and Meg for making Fangraphs–and baseball–better, and thanks to Meg for calling out those deserving of being called out. She did so with a perfect delivery.
My 16 year old niece is about 6’5” tall and has already been offered athletic scholarships in shot put, volleyball, and basketball at D1 schools. The olympics in shot put is not out of the question. She is as strong as any boy her age I have ever met and is so without the use of any steroid. If she played baseball she would probably be a true three outcomes player, but I have little doubt she could learn to hit 30 homers in a full baseball season if she wanted to play baseball. She is freakishly strong in her arms wrists and legs. But, where she lives in Pennsylvania there is no baseball option for girls. In softball she played in one game she hit 4 homeruns and struck out once having never played before. But she left that school to be homeschooled, so softball was no longer an option. My point is she was born with the Physical skills to be a female Adam Dunn, but the system for female sports made it impossible for her to find out if she could actually be a female Adam Dunn. The genetics are there! She is stronger in the arms and wrists right now than many playing baseball in college. Probably most playing baseball in college and she is not yet 17. Now I grant she is a rare physical specimen of a girl, but other girls like her probably exist in small numbers. I think she was born with the physical tools, but without the opportunity to learn the game as a player there is no way we can find out. We can’t
That’s some great fan fiction. Let us know when you’re ready to come back to reality
My three year old niece has a 38 inch vertical. I swear.
“And when we see little girls throw a ball around, when we see one more steely-eyed pip, another little one who doesn’t yet know what to do with her limbs, but does know that whatever it will be, it will be baseball, baseball over all other games, when we see that, we can imagine a great many things.”
This is a beautiful sentence.
Meg,
Thank you for this. I, too, was taken aback by the tone of the comments on Sheryl’s article. Some of them were bad enough that I actually felt embarrassed and apologetic on behalf of our little community. I also hoped it didn’t turn Sheryl off on writing for fangraphs. The stereotype of a lawyer is that they have thick skin, but still, some of those comments were tip-toeing the line of being personal attacks, and that can’t be fun no matter how thick or thin your skin is.
I think the issue was that Sheryl did not confine herself to *just* the legal issue but also dabbled in the “is it even possible” issue, and relied on dubious sources to flesh out that issue.
Some commenters correctly pointed this out and I appreciated their adding more information about how potentially biased and untrustworthy her sources were. Other commenters engaged with the legal portion of her article, disagreeing with her conclusions. I don’t think anyone had a problem with any of this. There were flaws in Sheryl’s article, and I think with the benefit of hindsight, she’d be the first to admit it.
What I was struck by was some of the meanness and downright anger in some of the comments, which was as inappropriate as it was misplaced. Frankly, it was a bit stomach churning at times.
Thank you for calling those folks out. It won’t change their minds, but I think in a community we at least have to acknowledge and reprove the barn behavior of others and be clear it isn’t acceptable.
I hope you’re dream of a female major leaguer comes true one of these days. Maybe it will, and maybe it won’t. But in the meantime, I don’t think anyone’s isn’t served by folks being belittling and nasty about it.
It amazes me how some people here have used this article as a platform to spew more negativity. The whole point had to do with the tone and attitudes, not the opinions.
It didn’t seem to me that anyone had any problems with the idea of a woman playing in MLB (and anyone who does is bigoted and should be roundly criticized for their bigotry).
Given that Fangraphs is the main analytical hub of the online baseball community, I think most of this community was disappointed with the lack of any kind of data supporting the implicit argument under-girding Ring’s entire piece–that it is physiologically feasible for a woman to play Major League Baseball. The existence of a few women as below-average players in scattered low-level Indy leagues throughout baseball history does not suffice as evidence that the discussion of a woman competing at the MLB level is anything other than 100% hypothetical. The idea that the outlier hardest-throwing woman touching 82 mph being roughly 10% less than the MLB average of 90 mph (in 2014 per the piece that Ring cited) doesn’t mean that the ~10% gender performance gap observed in the olympics study can be blanket applied to baseball. That’s just shoddy statistical analysis that one would expect to be torn to shreds on a site like this, regardless of the subject matter.
When you have a community with big-time analytical chops, they are quick to sniff out an emotional argument that is lacking in factual support. The pushback to Ring’s piece didn’t appear to me to be driven by gender stereotypes or bigotry, but rather by the poor quality of the evidence that formed the foundation of Ring’s central argument.
I think there was quite a bit of what I’d call legitimate feedback, calling out Sheryl’s sources, engaging with the legal argument, etc.
There was also some terrible feedback with overtones of anger and affront clearly disproportionate to the article, even if you believed it a poorly sourced piece of garbage. At the least, the legal argument appeared to be a cogent “way forward” *if* women wanted to challenge the current arrangement in court, which has value as an academic exercise, if nothing else.
I’ve been reading this website for nearly a decade, and I don’t recall the venom Sheryl got from some of the commentators on any other article—and there have been plenty of badly sourced articles in that time. And nobody could troll harder than Dave Cameron when he wanted to troll. Still think this was the worst.
I think we can acknowledge the article had significant flaws and negative feedback was entirely warranted. I also think we can acknowledge some commenters did *not* engage with the article and were merely angry and mean, and the simplest explanation was that they were provoked by the subject matter.
I think that’s all Meg is pointing out here. Criticism is completely warranted. Being a dick is not.
Can you provide an example of people being “dicks” without having a cogent argument?
Some of your own comments serve as an example, evo34, and asking someone to repeat nasty comments is just ridiculous. It wouldn’t do anyone any good, and all it takes is a quick scroll through–if that’s your thing.
So you cannot find one example? Telling.
Thank you for writing this. I think it’s really hard to change minds without getting a lot of resistance from the unthoughtful, but you’re doing it.
Part of “trying” is trying to understand that women not playing in baseball has nothing to do with opportunity. The same way that small and weak men are nowhere to be found in baseball. Should people be demanding that 150 lb. men with dry eyes get a fair shot at baseball? They fact is, they do. They are weeded out at very early age, just as in any other sport. Women are weeded out, because MLB is a meritocracy, not because of any bias. To suggest otherwise is to cheapen the very legitimate claims of arbitrary discrimination that exist in many other industries.
It has a great deal to do with opportunity.
Could a woman ever compete in MLB? I don’t know. The physical differences are real, and significant. It is not just that men build more muscle, it is that the muscle the build is also denser, and contains more fast-twitch fibers. It is possible that those differences will forever prevent women from generating the bat speed necessary to catch up to a 100 MPH fastball. Maybe. Or may be note.
And that is the point: we don’t know.
We don’t know because girls are not yet allowed to compete with boys at every level of youth baseball. Some are, yes. But many others are denied the opportunity — not allowed to compete on travelling teams, to participate in the best clinics, to try out for high school teams.
This is the seat of our discriminatory policy. Not draft day.
So to say that there are physical limitations is true and honest and necessary. But to suggest that we already know that those limitations forever preclude female participation in MLB is false and unwarranted.
Allow every girl to participate in youth baseball at every level until she can no longer compete. It is likely that for many, if not most, girls that moment will coincide with puberty. But for others it might not. And then, after 10 or 20 or 30 years, if women are still being ignored on draft day, we will have much better information with which to evaluate that disparate treatment.
In the meantime, teams are only doing themselves a disservice by ignoring the potential of a talented young women. I don’t know if there today exists a women capable of competing in the minors and working her way to the majors. Perhaps not. Or perhaps she has not yet been given the opportunity to try because it would be too difficult: too much of a media show, too much adjustment for the boys and men currently participating in the minors as players and coaches.
“In the meantime, teams are only doing themselves a disservice by ignoring the potential of a talented young women.”
This is like saying the guy who’s living paycheck to paycheck is doing himself a disservice by not purchasing a Powerball ticket with his last $2 every week.
Oh, comment baiters, what bounds do you know?
Is this rude?
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22women.html
The reason people are upset with this topic being discussed is not sexism, bigotry, jealousy, or hatred. It’s because this site has historically been a forum for rational thought and analysis, whereas this topic is nothing but someone’s (apparently, many people’s) fantasy. It has no basis in reality.
No rational decision-maker is going to put scarce resources into some social experiment that has a close to 0 percent chance of succeeding. I would certainly wager that the male population of virtually any of the hundreds of countries not currently represented in the professional ranks is far more likely to produce MLB-caliber talent than the female populous of the United States. I don’t see the same concerns over the barriers a young kid in Botswana may face if his dream is to become an MLB star.
These types of thought experiments are all fine and well and I think it’s great for people to dream on this kind of thing. However, I don’t think this site is the correct forum for that and that’s what the audience is reacting to.