Opting Out May Not Be Manny Machado’s Best Move

Bill Streicher-USA TODAY Sports

On the heels of what was arguably the best season of his career — one in which he set career highs in wRC+ (152) and WAR (7.4), helped the Padres to the NLCS for the first time in 24 years, and finished second in the NL MVP voting — Manny Machado has informed the Padres that he intends to exercise the opt-out in his $300 million contract after this season and test free agency again.

Last Friday, at the Padres’ spring training site in Peoria, Arizona, the All-Star third baseman confirmed that in December prior to the Winter Meetings, agent Dan Lozano gave the Padres a February 16 deadline to reach agreement on extending the 10-year, $300 million contract Machado signed in February 2019. According to a report by the San Diego Union-Tribune’s Kevin Acee, the Padres made just one offer after hearing from Lozano; two days before the deadline, they offered to add five years and $21 million per year ($105 million total) to the five years and $150 million that will remain on his deal after this year. The proposed package of 10 years and $255 million wasn’t enough to satisfy Machado, and so with the deadline having passed, he told reporters that now that he’s in camp he wants to focus on the upcoming season rather than on contract negotiations.

It’s not hard to understand Machado’s position. At the time he signed, his contract ranked as second only to Giancarlo Stanton’s 13-year, $325 million deal in total value, though since then, 10 other deals have matched or exceeded it, including that of Machado’s teammate, Fernando Tatis Jr.:

Largest Contracts
Rk Player Team Total Yrs Type Period Age
1 Mike Trout Angels $426.5 M 12 Ext 2019-30 27
2 Mookie Betts Dodgers $365 M 12 Ext 2021-32 28
3 Aaron Judge Yankees $360 M 9 FA 2023-31 31
4 Francisco Lindor Mets $341 M 10 Ext 2022-31 28
5 Fernando Tatis Jr. Padres $340 M 14 Ext 2021-34 22
6 Bryce Harper Phillies $330 M 13 FA 2019-31 26
7T Giancarlo Stanton Marlins $325 M 13 Ext 2015-27 25
Corey Seager Rangers $325 M 10 FA 2022-31 28
9 Gerrit Cole Yankees $324 M 9 FA 2020-28 29
10 Rafael Devers Red Sox $313.5 M 10 Ext 2024-33 27
11T Manny Machado Padres $300 M 10 FA 2019-28 26
Trea Turner Phillies $300 M 11 FA 2023-33 30
SOURCE: Cot’s Contracts
Age = seasonal age as of June 30 in first year of contract.

“There’s a lot of money out there,” Machado said on Friday. “The market has changed since I signed five years ago. It has changed enormously. Things change and evolve. And as a player about to exit, that’s pretty good to see.”

The market has particularly changed when it comes to the Padres, who suddenly have the game’s third-highest payroll (about $263 million in actual salaries and $272 million for Competitive Balance Tax purposes according to RosterResource), ahead of the division rival Dodgers and trailing only the Mets and Yankees. Within the last year alone, they’ve done things like sign Joe Musgrove to a five-year, $100 million extension; blow up their farm system in trading for Juan Soto (who will make $23 million in 2023, is under control through ’24, and reportedly turned down a 14-year, $440 million extension prior to being dealt by the Nationals) and Josh Hader (who will make $14.1 million before hitting free agency); signed free agent Xander Bogaerts to an 11-year, $280 million deal; and extended Yu Darvish via a six-year, $108 million contract.

From a performance standpoint, Machado may wish he could test free agency now, because it’s tough to imagine him having more leverage in a year. He’s coming off a season in which he hit .298/.366/.531, setting full-season highs in batting average and wRC+ while coming within one point of matching his high in on-base percentage. By fWAR, he surpassed his previous high of 7.0, set in 2018, though his 6.8 bWAR took a backseat to his 2015 and ’16 totals (7.5 and 7.3, respectively). He capped his season by hitting .271/.327/.583 with four homers in the postseason, and adding some stellar defense as well as the Padres beat the 101-win Mets and the 111-win Dodgers.

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Beyond the numbers, which have improved on an annual basis since his tepid 2.2-WAR, 109-wRC+ inaugural season in San Diego, Machado has emerged as a leader for the Padres, and outgrown a reputation for dirty play that may have chilled his free agent market four years ago. Recall that during the 2018 NLCS he was fined for kicking the foot of the Brewers’ Jesús Aguilar, whose teammates also took issue with a few of his slides, and the year before that, he spiked Dustin Pedroia on an aggressive slide that caused a knee injury from which the second baseman never recovered. Machado’s level of effort was also called into question, particularly after he told Ken Rosenthal in a pregame interview for FS1, “I’m not the type of player that’s going to be ‘Johnny Hustle’ and run down the line and slide to first base.”

As far as the timing goes, however, next year’s free agent market looks dreadfully thin beyond Shohei Ohtani. Machado would almost certainly be the best position player available, though Matt Chapman could present a less expensive alternative at the hot corner.

For as strong as Machado’s 2022 was, over the first four years of his deal, he’s fallen a bit short of his ZiPS projections:

Manny Machado 2019–23 ZiPS vs. Actual
Year Proj G Proj WAR Actual G Actual WAR
2019 156 5.7 156 2.2
2020 152 5.4 60 2.6
2021 149 5.2 153 4.3
2022 145 5.0 150 7.4
Total 602 21.3 519 16.5

Some of that shortfall is due to the pandemic-shortened season; when I prorate Machado’s actual production to the same number of games (the ZiPS projection in Jeff Sullivan’s transaction writeup didn’t have plate appearances, and I’ve nudged Dan Szymborski enough over the past 72 hours not to ask him to exhume that), he comes up about two wins short thus far, 19.1 WAR versus 21.3 projected. Throw out that first year, when Machado may have gotten a late jump on the season because he didn’t sign until after pitchers and catchers had begun reporting, and he comes out ahead on a prorated basis, 17.6 WAR to 15.6 projected WAR. Where he’s tied for 15th in WAR for the 2019-22 span, he’s sixth for 2020-22 behind only Judge, José Ramírez, Turner, Freddie Freeman, and Paul Goldschmidt. That’s more like it.

To evaluate what Machado might be worth on a new deal that starts in 2024, first we have to pencil in a performance for ’23, and in doing so it’s worth bracketing our expectations. The ZiPS percentile projections are useful for this:

ZiPS Projection Percentiles – Manny Machado (2023)
Percentile 2B HR BA OBP SLG OPS+ WAR
95% 40 43 .311 .389 .575 165 8.0
90% 37 39 .299 .376 .555 156 7.2
80% 33 35 .288 .361 .529 146 6.4
70% 31 32 .279 .354 .502 139 5.8
60% 30 30 .272 .346 .483 133 5.3
50% 28 28 .266 .338 .469 125 4.8
40% 27 26 .258 .329 .456 121 4.3
30% 25 24 .251 .320 .439 115 3.8
20% 24 22 .239 .311 .424 107 3.2
10% 21 20 .228 .297 .402 98 2.5
5% 20 18 .215 .285 .376 90 1.5

I’ve highlighted the 50th percentile projection as well as the 20th- and 80th-percentile ones, which I’ll use to examine a manageable number of scenarios. Looking at this, one can understand how hard it will be for Machado to replicate what he did in 2022. According to Dan, his 159 OPS+ represented an 83rd-percentile outcome for 2022, his age-29 season, but doing so for ’23 will require something slightly above his 90th-percentile projection, which is to say that there’s less than a 10% chance of it happening.

The problem for Machado is that the new deal would start with his age-31 season, a point at which the gravity of the aging curve really starts to weigh a player down. For all of the money that Machado sees flowing in free agency, he may have missed the part where Judge — who was coming off an historic 62-homer season — was the only player entering his age-31 season or older to get even $100 million.

As far as the long-term projections go, consider how modest Machado’s 2024-33 looks like if he meets his 50th percentile projection for ’23:

Manny Machado 2024-33 (50th Percentile 2023)
Year Age AVG OBP SLG AB H HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ WAR $
2024 31 .276 .346 .490 547 151 28 95 60 111 8 129 4.5 $37.7
2025 32 .270 .342 .478 525 142 26 87 58 108 7 125 3.9 $33.8
2026 33 .264 .335 .459 497 131 23 78 54 103 5 118 3.1 $27.5
2027 34 .259 .329 .438 464 120 19 69 50 98 4 111 2.4 $20.9
2028 35 .251 .323 .419 422 106 16 59 46 92 3 104 1.7 $14.3
2029 36 .242 .314 .392 372 90 12 48 40 84 3 95 1.0 $6.5
2030 37 .240 .311 .383 313 75 10 39 33 72 2 92 0.5 $3.8
2031 38 .237 .307 .369 241 57 7 29 25 56 1 87 0.2 $1.6
2032 39 .235 .306 .364 187 44 5 22 19 44 1 85 0.1 $0.9
2033 40 .224 .295 .345 116 26 3 13 12 28 0 77 -0.1 $0.9
Total .256 .328 .432 3684 942 149 539 397 796 34 109 17.3 $147.9

We’re not off to a great start, because over the 10-year period laid out above, Machado projects to be worth roughly the amount of money he’s currently guaranteed to receive over the next five years. He projects to add just an additional 1.7 WAR over the final five seasons (ages 36-40).

Via his 20th-percentile scenario, Machado doesn’t even project to play in 2033:

ZiPS Projection – Manny Machado 2024-32 (20th Percentile 2023)
Year Age AVG OBP SLG AB H HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ WAR $
2024 31 .268 .334 .458 541 145 24 87 55 118 7 118 3.5 $28.8
2025 32 .261 .328 .439 517 135 21 79 52 113 6 111 2.8 $22.8
2026 33 .257 .323 .424 486 125 18 71 48 108 5 105 2.2 $17.7
2027 34 .250 .315 .404 448 112 15 61 44 101 4 98 1.5 $11.3
2028 35 .244 .310 .388 394 96 12 51 39 91 3 93 0.9 $5.9
2029 36 .237 .303 .368 321 76 9 39 31 77 2 85 0.3 $2.3
2030 37 .236 .301 .361 233 55 6 27 22 57 1 83 0.1 $0.9
2031 38 .230 .292 .355 152 35 4 17 14 37 1 79 -0.1 $0.9
2032 39 .227 .290 .330 97 22 2 11 9 24 0 72 -0.1 $0.9
Total .251 .318 .409 3189 801 111 443 314 726 29 99 11.1 $91.5

By this one, Machado doesn’t even project to produce $100 million in value for the remainder of his career. Indeed, he projects to produce just 0.2 WAR over the 2029-32 window and to hang up his spikes before ’33. But even in a much better scenario, his production over that last half-decade is pretty meager:

ZiPS Projection – Manny Machado 2024-33 (80th Percentile 2023)
Year Age AVG OBP SLG AB H HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ WAR $
2024 31 .281 .355 .510 555 156 30 101 65 105 10 137 5.2 $44.4
2025 32 .274 .348 .490 533 146 27 92 62 102 8 130 4.3 $38.3
2026 33 .262 .338 .458 507 133 23 83 59 99 7 118 3.3 $29.1
2027 34 .257 .333 .440 475 122 20 73 55 94 5 113 2.6 $23.6
2028 35 .252 .327 .426 437 110 17 63 50 89 4 107 2.0 $17.3
2029 36 .241 .315 .396 394 95 13 53 44 83 3 96 1.1 $7.4
2030 37 .241 .315 .392 344 83 11 45 38 74 3 95 0.8 $5.7
2031 38 .238 .311 .386 290 69 9 36 31 63 2 92 0.5 $3.4
2032 39 .234 .307 .371 256 60 7 31 27 56 1 87 0.1 $0.9
2033 40 .229 .303 .358 179 41 5 21 19 40 1 83 0.0 $0.9
Total .256 .331 .437 3970 1015 162 598 450 805 44 113 19.9 $171.0

That’s just $21 million above the $150 million he’s currently guaranteed. Machado projects to produce just 2.5 WAR over the final five seasons.

All of which is to say that maybe Machado shouldn’t have passed up the Padres’ extension offer, if indeed the terms were as reported, because it’s difficult to look at his next decade and see another $300 million worth of performance. Yes, whether it’s the Padres or another team, somebody may pay a premium for the marquee value of Machado, as the Yankees did for Judge; based on ZiPS, the Yanks are paying $360 million for $311 million worth of projected production. But even if one imagines that somebody is willing to give Machado a similarly large cushion — say, an extra $50 million above and beyond his performance — none of the scenarios above gets him to the $255 million he’d have made by tacking that five-year, $105 million offer onto the remaining five years of his deal. What’s more, that $255 million over 10 years has a lot to do with the trend towards lengthening position player deals so as to minimize the tax implications; a new deal that raises Machado’s AAV to, say, $33 million (past Nolan Arenado and into second among all third basemen behind Anthony Rendon’s $35 million) by paying him $264 million over eight years moves him up in the annual salary pecking order but would also cost the big-spending Padres more in taxes.

Then again, maybe Machado is merely trying to get another couple of seasons in the $30 million neighborhood tacked on. A seven-year, $200 million deal would only be about $34 million above his projected performance in the 80th-percentile scenario, coming in at a Judge-like $10.3 million per projected win.

Beyond the money, one very real problem for Machado if he wants to stay in San Diego is the Padres’ depth. As it is, with the addition of Bogaerts they’re planning on playing Tatis (who missed all of last year due to a wrist injury and a PED suspension) in right field once he returns from his suspension, Ha-Seong Kim (who put up stellar defensive numbers at shortstop in Tatis’ stead) at second, and Jake Cronenworth (who put up good defensive numbers at second base) at first. It’s not hard to envision the reshuffle that could happen if Machado moves on, and the money saved would help them make a run at retaining Soto.

For what it’s worth, both general manager A.J. Preller and owner Peter Seidler indicated on Tuesday that they will attempt to retain Machado, with Seidler calling him “my top priority.” Preller said that Machado is “always a priority for me and for the organization,” and added that the acquisition of Bogaerts wasn’t intended as a potential replacement but “for him to play with Manny.”

There are two bits of good news here for Machado. One is that great players steamroll their projections with some frequency; part of what makes them great is their ability to defy the odds, to hit those 80th or 90th percentile projections and convince us that they’re just as good as ever. The problem is that figuring out which players are going to do that is difficult. For every Machado you’ve got some number of Christian Yeliches and Kris Bryants, All-Stars whose bodies suddenly betray them in their late 20s or early 30s and make their big contracts look terrible. If he does have another big season, he should test the market; the problem is that he’s probably overestimating his odds of doing so.

The second bit of good news is that for whatever Machado is saying in February, he hasn’t officially opted out, just announced his intention to do so. He can change his mind in case he sustains a significant injury or has a down season, or, for that matter, if the Padres come back with an offer that he can’t refuse. Indeed, he should keep the lines of communication open, because the prize behind the next door he opens may not be as impressive as he hopes.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

115 Comments
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Jorge Soler vs Train (UNEXPECTED)
3 years ago

I enjoy the story of how Machado has outgrown his previous bad guy archetype. He really has taken to the leadership role in SD. Nice to see people make intangible improvements like this. Beyond all the numbers and analysis this is what matters most in life.

hebrewMember since 2016
3 years ago

ehhh maybe its more likely that the “bad guy” crap was overblown and stupid in the first place?

revolu
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

I dunno, I still remember Machado throwing tantrums and bats at players while in Baltimore

OddBall Herrera
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

Right? There are wife beaters, cheaters and dopers out there yet all I can think of that got Machado a bad rep was not legging out a few singles on a non competitive team

proiste
3 years ago

Then you have a bad memory. He threw a bat at Alberto Callaspo, slid cleats-up into Dustin Pedroia and ended his career, and stomped on Jesus Aguilar’s ankle running through first. He hasn’t done anything bad in a while, but there was some real fire to that smoke back in the day

OddBall Herrera
3 years ago
Reply to  proiste

Gosh I actually don’t remember any of that!

Oh the Pedroia thing was 2017. Yeah, there’s a chunk of time there that was lost to a parenthood fog of diapers and sleepless nights

proiste
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

With him, it had some weight to hit. There were several incidents where he appeared to deliberately hurt other players on the field. Maybe you can explain away some of them, but that one tantrum where he threw a bat at an opponent was legitimately messed up and way beyond normal gamesmanship

tedMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  proiste

Agree. I do not remember the incident with Machado, but I do remember Roger Clemens throwing a splintered bat at Mike Piazza, and that has not lost any of its shock after 20 years.

tedMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  ted

You know, I should add that it is poor practice to form an opinion based on one bad moment. But still, shocking behavior like that does stick in the mind.

shortstop
3 years ago
Reply to  ted

In Clemens’ defense, he thought it was the ball! Totally reasonable and believable!

Last edited 3 years ago by shortstop
sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

No. He was a first-class jerk.

Binyamin
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

Before moving to SD he was a first-class thug.

uptheirons
3 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

it wasnt. He was a dirty player, who failed to hustle. He would stand there staring as balls hit off the wall, loaf to first as an infielder threw the ball away, glare at his own teammates and coaching staff, intentionally spike opponents.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Tbf he was only a painted as a “bad” guy by shills who noticed (by themselves, of course, using freedom) that he was lined up to make lots of money in the profession. That makes so many brainwashed gen poppers and their masters tight. Dude was an elite among elite amateur prospect who made good, reached the MLs at 19, starred for deep playoff teams, and is nearly 50 WAR into a ML career at 30. Any questioning of work ethic, hunger, character, etc was just
brainwashed ghouls being brainwashed ghouls expressing the freedom and bravery granted by our lords/jobcreators

bigwinnie
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Tf are you talking about lol. I love Manny, but he was a grade A POS for the beginning of his career. Glad he’s cooled down in recent years

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  bigwinnie

That little more than a teenaged high level professional under a national spotlight within the most insane Business culture in history can be viewed as a Grade A POS in the sanctimonious eyes of the pro sports fan population only speaks to how boring and empty this corporatized existence is!

Wuppin
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Who knew throwing a bat at someone wasn’t a personal anger management issue but the Corporation’s (TM) fault!

Last edited 3 years ago by Wuppin
SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Wuppin

Or, you know, a moment that passed and gave the masses something to be outraged about a decade later coincidentally in time to talk money

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Not that anyone’s *outraged* per se just a weird thing to come up with weirder timing

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Of course, many thanks to SenorGato, who always reminds us to be careful of believing our own lying eyes.

While we may observe behavior that indisputably shows someone to be a person with unlikable and less than desirable character traits, we are being played for suckers. Always, always, always, the real cause of the problem is “The Man.” And “The System” he created.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sbf21

Always, always, always, the real cause of the problem is “The Man.” And “The System” he created.

Well, yeah, what’s made up about that? I get that it’s not in full, obvious view for an exhausted or worse population “looking” with a turnt blind eye. Plus there no Official sauces from The Man acknowledging either. Still, yes, two very real things! Also I vote if “The Man” and “The System” gets to be in quotes then “money” should too

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

All of which is to say that maybe Machado shouldn’t have passed up the Padres’ extension offer, if indeed the terms were as reported, because it’s difficult to look at his next decade and see another $300 million worth of performance. Yes, whether it’s the Padres or another team, somebody may pay a premium for the marquee value…

This seems pretty weakly reasoned to me. When a player (or his agent) is deciding to opt out, the question isn’t “will he project to be worth this money?” The question is “will any one team be willing to pay him more, whether for good or bad reasons?” You can’t answer that by mechanically totting up the “value” column in the ZIPS projections; you have to look at the market that you think will develop for this particular package. Free agents get “paid a premium” for all kinds of reasons, because all it takes is one bidder to go higher than they “should” in the abstract wins-are-fungible sense — often for totally rational reasons because players fit differently on their roster or their win curve than they would on the imaginary Abstract Neutral Team. I’m with other commenters here that this method of valuing players is starting to look like it’s outlived its usefulness.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago

While I tend to agree that “X” $$ per WAR doesn’t jive with the real world, it is still a good place to start & is good information to have.

The analysis HAS to start somewhere & certainly a key part of ANY contract Machado is going to get is how his performance is projected over the next 10 years. & the next step is valuing what that WAR is worth.

I don’t think anyone has ever said the $9M per WAR is gospel, it’s a good estimate (like WAR itself).

Maybe Jay could put a bunch of caveats on it? or he could just write “Who cares what Machado is worth, some team is going to pay him more anyway!”..but, who the heck wants or needs to read that?

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

The article says it’s going to answer the question “should he opt out?”, not the question “what is he worth?” — but even leaving that aside, if your framework for evaluating what a player is “worth” is consistently unable to predict what he’s going to get paid, it may not actually be answering the question in the first place. I think we all know at this point that $ and WAR do not actually have a consistent linear relationship; but what an analyst needs to do instead is not, as you suggest, throw up his hands, but instead think. There are better answers to the question posed by the article in the comment section here than there are in the article, because the comments begin to think through questions like positional scarcity, demand/need on the team side, recent shifts in the market, etc. rather than just doing the $/WAR thing by rote.

fjtorres
3 years ago

Exactly: stuff happens.
Just one scenario: The mets find themselves without a ring or a 3B come november.
Or the Red Sox want to spend.
Or the Giants…
Or…
Quite a few teams can afford more than the Padres offered.

To be continued after the season…

AlbyMember since 2017
3 years ago

OK, Mr. Literal. Your gripe is the headline was misleading. Yawn.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Yet, if we weren’t already considering those extra factors through the actual contracts that have been signed this offseason, then the current $/WAR figure wouldn’t be as high as it is in the first place, and thus Machado would be projected to be worth even less money over the next decade.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I think this is correct. Owners love shelling out cash for guys of Machado’s stature all of a sudden. We just saw an off-season where Bogaerts just got something like $280M at a similar age, and Trea Turner got more. And although Machado might not be better than Turner he will probably age better, and I’m pretty sure he’s better than Bogaerts.

I’m pretty sure the most likely scenario is he opts out and the Padres sign him to a deal that runs through his age 41 season, just like those two guys. That contract probably goes horribly wrong but he will still probably get it!

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’d bet that in a year or two, one of this offseason’s megadeals will be widely viewed as the most underwater contract in baseball. Which one is anyone’s guess!

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

And another one will be viewed as a bargain. Also hard to guess

sogoodlooking
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I was all ready to pshaw with something like ‘A bargain at this offseason’s prices is hard to imagine,’ but if the Yankees had thrown a crazy number like, say, $300m at Judge at the end of the 2021-22 offseason and he had his same 2022 season, he’d be that very bargain.

Hard to guess, indeed.

sogoodlooking
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“We just saw an off-season where Bogaerts just got something like $280M at a similar age…”

—That one year of prime age (or close enough) missing from what Machado has to offer, though, can easily be worth $50m to $70m to his team. I’m also less certain that Machado is the better player, given he’s at 3B and Bogaerts is as good a defender by the numbers at SS.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It will be like A-Rod all over again.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

The first A-Rod contract was a fantastic value.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
AlbyMember since 2017
3 years ago

And the problem with that answer is it leaves you with no article. Should someone opt out because some starry-eyed owner will fork out the money? By your reasoning, everyone should.

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago

They can also pay less than the value. I’m pretty sure the actual contract value and these projections tend to be fairly close. You are absurdly unlikely to get 107 million more.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Maybe, but the main reason the $/WAR calculations aren’t linear and are especially high for superstar players in the first place is because those premium prices are already baked into the calculations, which don’t forget are based on the actual previous contracts that have been given out.

butthole25
3 years ago

Methinks Johnny Hustle’s going to be disappointed!

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  butthole25

Yeah, but, Charlie Hustle would bet on it!

baubo
3 years ago

I think in a neutral situation Machado may not be worth the $300+mil he probably believes he’s getting next year, but it’s a pretty good market for him next offseason. Among the teams who would potentially shell out a huge contract, Yankees, Mets, Giants, and Phillies clearly have needs assuming no big break out years from youngsters. In addition to SD unless they decide to spend elsewhere given that they can just move Bogaerts there. This would be something that presumably his agent is more aware of than outsiders.

Because there are so many good 3rd baseman with big long contracts, it’s kind of a position with little FA depth. It’s Machado, Chapman, and Bregman the next 2 years of FA, and the other two might get extended before they get there.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

I assume the Phillies will be focused on shelling out a huge Nola contract. Manny might do a little better than 10/255, but it sure seems like the downside outweighs the upside. Of course, that’s what I thought when Judge turned down his extension, and players always want to bet on themselves.

baubo
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Well TBF if anyone can disregard downside it’s Machado, given that he has already made $170mil in his career and that the worst case scenario for him would be opting into $150mil.

As for upside I would certainly put it at much higher than $250mil. If he does 80~90% of what he did in 2022, I think $300+mil contract is basically guaranteed. Now the question may be if he can achieve that again, since he’s kind of been volatile over the years, so his downside may be that he’s a 3 WAR player and settles for something like 10/220. But upside he’s always been a potential MVP candidate.

Pepper Martin
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

The worst case scenario is not him keeping the $150 million. The worst case scneario is he opts out of his contract, and the offers he gets are for less than $150 million.

The worst case scenario is Juan Gonzalez. Gonzalez got traded to Detroit in 2000 just before his age 30 season with one season remaining on his contract, and was offered an 8 year, $140 million extension that would have been the richest in baseball history. He turned down that offer, thinking he would do better on the open market, and then had a mediocre, but not terrible, season with the Tigers. He had to settle for a one-year, $10 million pillow contract with the Indians; and even though he was an All-Star and finished 5h in MVP voting that year, he was heading in to his age 32 season off it and could only get a 2 year contract. After turning down that $140 million, he only made $38.6 million over the remaining 5 years of his career before washing out of baseball.

Travis LMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

That’s a … pretty good worst case scenario? Especially when it comes as a result of betting on yourself. A guy as good as Manny is always going to bet on themself, it’s worked out really well for him thus far.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

Wait, what?! Missing out on $100MM in guaranteed money is a pretty good scenario? Hot damn that’s a world I want to live in…

darren
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

“Good” may be a bit strong, but still being able to pull in $40 mil more (maybe something like $80 mil today?) wouldn’t be terrible. It would be a lot better fallback position than most players who are trying to get to FA.

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

1) 80-90% of his 2022 isn’t very likely, his xwOBA was actually way down last year, and he’s projected for about 66% of his 2022 fWAR.

2) There’s been one 300 million dollar contract given out to someone entering their age 31 season or older, Judge’s. Machado isn’t getting one after a 6 fWar season.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

If you adjust for MLB salary inflation, there are others that would now be worth $300M+ like Pujols, Cano, A-Rod’s extension, etc.

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

True, and it seems teams have learned from those.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Actually, most top players want teams to bet on them.
That’s what made Judge’s 2022 so amazing.

How often do you see top FAs eagerly agreeing to vesting options?
Opt outs are their prefered insurance: an escape hatch if they do well, a pillow if something goes wrong.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

Bregman getting extended might happen before opening day.

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

Unless something changes drastically, I think the odds of the Yankees making a bid for Machado are right around zero.

tung_twista
3 years ago

Machado is in a very rare position where he can afford to be as risk neutral as the teams and maximize his expected earnings. 
He will have made $170M by the end of this season and if he gets a career-threatening injury, he can always choose not to opt out and accept a “measly” sum of $150M over the next five years.

Even with a 30% outcome of OPS+ 115 and 3.8 WAR, Manny could easily do better than the proposed extension of $255M/10 year. 
In some weird sense, the fact that Machado already had a couple of down years (2017 and 2019) but was able to bounce back is going to prevent his market from falling too much even if he has a relatively poor 2023. 

Bogaerts $280M is an obvious comparison and I think people underestimate the difference between them.
Best five seasons by fwar  
Machado: 7.4, 7.0, 6.6, 6.2, 5.0  
Bogaerts: 6.1, 5.9, 4.6, 4.4, 4.4  
Bogaerts is a 4.5 win player with a ceiling of 6 win, a (borderline) superstar that peaked at 5th in MVP voting once. 
Machado is a 5 win player with a ceiling of 7 win, a superstar on a very promising track to Cooperstown that already has four top 5 MVP finishes. 

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

I think it’s very possible if the Padres had offered this to him before free agency began he would have taken it. But Bogaerts and Turner just got deals that were far, far longer than anyone expected. One of them was given out by Machado’s team! I am sure he sees this and thinks a similar contract is on the horizon.

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Machado will be a year older and has a somewhat recent “bad” season (2019).

You’re kidding yourself if you think he puts up 3.8 fWAR in 2023 and gets more than 255 mil.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Whatever route gets him to the Cubd for 2024+

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Cubs*

MorboTheAnnihilator
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

As a Cardinals fan, I too would love this. It would be great to see Machado take over Jason Heyward’s mantle as the underwhelming Cub with a gigantic contract who becomes entirely unplayable for the majority of his contract.

steveo
3 years ago

Not sure why you’d love them signing a top 10 MLB player. So in 2028 his contract will be underwater? Kind of a weird way to think tbh. Like are Dodgers fans happy that Bogaerts’ contract will be bad in 2028? It’s an absurd way to think.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

It’s standard issue 21st century sports fan think…Future…payroll efficiency…draft picks…Yaaawn

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

So sign more high price free agents…?

Aren’t you the guy always ranting about how bad rich people are?

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

I suspect neither of us will ever know the point being made. I’m more curious as to what the heck even are rich people?

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

Putting up with 5 or so years of a good Machado on a rival team is easily worth him sinking that same rival for the 5 years after that, and the odds are that the Cardinals will still be in contention for each of those years.

It’s the same reasoning why I wouldn’t want my own team to sign Machado or any of these other guys to such ridiculous long term contracts when they’re likely to become albatrosses for a number of years on the back end.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Whatever you parrots gotta parrot to yourselves to get there. I‘m aware what the algorithms will have the crowd say, should make it all the easier for him to wear a Cubs hat to the HoF

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago

Making a public announcement of his intention to opt out seems like a questionable negotiating tactic. Obviously it would be foolish to actually exercise the option before the season is over. It’s going to be awkward if he ends up taking the option for whatever reason. I doubt the Padres needed to be told that if he has a healthy season almost anywhere in his projectino band he’s going to opt out.

If the intent was that he wants certainty of staying in SD but to get a new contract reasonably close to market value, it seems like he was already offered that.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
Barney Coolio
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I think it is good to the fans to be upfront about it. It isn’t a difficult thing to do as it makes so much sense to opt out.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

I think we all know he’s opting out unless there’s a catastrophic injury – even at the 5th percentile ZiPS projection there’s a decent chance he could beat the option on the open market. But what does he gain by committing to it publicly before the season?

v2miccaMember since 2016
3 years ago

Man, seeing the potential numbers Machado is expecting (and very may well get) for his decline years makes me all the more appreciative of the Braves front office which through some dark voodoo keeps managing to lock in their young talent for extended deals at team friendly prices.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

Those offers work a lot better if you offer the player a fortune before they’re already set for life, but the Braves have really had good luck with them. So far, at least!

proiste
3 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

It’s not dark voodoo, they’re getting these deals because they let players skip the arbitration process and give them guaranteed money they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten at such early stages in their career. What Braves are doing has worked out for them so far, but it’s not hard to follow that there’s significant risk to paying guys before they’re fully established, which is what leads to these lower dollar values

kid
3 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

The “megadeal for the super young player” is one of the true remaining market inefficiencies that can work out as (relatively) incredible deals for clubs. Some forward-thinking clubs have been successful doing this, but other traditional clubs have opted to do the thing where you let the good, young player ride out on a cheap deal then open up the wallet in FA.

webgems86
3 years ago

The only problem I have with these projections or any projections per usual is they are context neutral. 1, Manny isn’t some jabroni normal player thats just going to fall off. He’s a future HOFR, Generational left side IFr/3b. He’s in the A-rod, Cal Ripken category. When it’s all done he’s probably going to have high 80s to 90s career WAR. The other thing is and this is where Sabr/context neutral doesn’t work. It’s 1 thing if Manny played on a rebuilding team like he did the 1st year or 2 in SD and it was just him. That’s how you get 2-3 WAR Seasons. But if he stays and is surrounded by Tatis and Xander& Cronenworth he’s going to put up 100 runs &rbi til he’s 35-36&bang 30 bombs. Plus ELITE Defense. Same if he got signed by Yankees or Dodgers, Mets other Contender large markets

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  webgems86

How much might Machado produce for 2023 Oakkand?

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  webgems86

I fee like I just read a radio call in comment.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Was it “jabroni” that gave it away? I think that term was rarely used in the Lincoln-Douglas debates. It did not come into fashion until Admiral Stockdale began throwing it around in the leadup to the 1992 election

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Teams have some major issues with overpaying guys coming off of excellent seasons even if there are red flags about future performance. If he has a 6+ win season he is going to beat that 80th percentile projected deal by $100M.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I completely agree, and if he does it’s still only $16m more than he just turned down.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Only?
Even after taxes and the agent’s cut there is nothing “only” about that difference.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

It must be understood: he’s insatiably greedy for needing that measly $16 million, teams are overpayzzzing for offering that massive difference

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

For me $16m would be a life changing fortune. For Machado it’s something like 3% of his expected career earnings. Regardless, he should do whatever gives him the most expected value if that’s his priority.

I’m just not convinced that turning down $255m does that. Let’s say he has a 2022 Judge-level all time great 2023 season – would he get 360m? I bet it would be a little less because of Judge’s unique circumstances.

If he repeats last year’s 7 WAR season (the best of his career), he might get $300m.

If he has a relatively pedestrian (by superstar standards) 4 WAR 2023 season, as a 31 year old free agent he’ll probably get what? 200m?

I’m not convinced the expected value of playing out the 2023 season and going to free agency is higher than what he already turned down.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Maybe it’s not just the money: some folks are saying SD can’t sustain their new budget level indefinitely. And his contract only has a six team no trade clause.
He may be considering the possibility of being Huizenga-ed.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Fair enough, he could be.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I like to read “overpay” and “overpaying” as “overpayzzzzz” and “overpayzzzing”….Best captures the depth of the statement

Mike NMN
3 years ago

Machado will opt out, and someone will pay him more in free agency than he’s worth. It’s just a question of how much more. That doesn’t mean he’s not a very good player who, barring something unfortunate, is likely to go to th Hall of Fame. But a big AAV long term deal is very risky for the acquirer. It’s true the Yankees overpaid Judge. But if he actually puts up $311M of value for $360M, that Yanks might just be satisfied with that, given the marketing/leadership aspects he brings (that doesn’t mean they’d like the overpay, just that it would be easier to swallow). Is Machado in that boat?

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I don’t think so. The Yankees are paying a 16% premium over ZiPS – I don’t think that’s at all unusual for a superstar contract and might even be on the low end. If Machado gets, say, $280m that would be an 89% premium over the 50% ZiPS and a 64% premium over the 80% ZiPS.

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I’d wager that the Yankees recoup that on-field overpay in a single season from the increased sales and marketing revenue Judge produces for them.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sbf21

I’d be curious to see if there are any studies to support this. At least from a ticket sales perspective, wouldn’t the Yankees sell out every game regardless of whether they have Judge or not?

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

I too would love to see this.

Perhaps Judge really does increase the size of the revenue pie, or perhaps his star power just results in a larger portion of the same pie being credited to him.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

The Yankees don’t sellout every game or even most of them. Their average attendance last year was 40,207, while the ballpark has a capacity of 54,251.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Does the average attendance figure include all tickets sold, or just the people who show up? I’d bet the latter and that it represents most of the difference.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

No. That’s the capacity for the old stadium. The new one holds around 46,500. But don’t believe that 40K number. Inflated. I’ve seen it reported that they take a couple of thousand unfair rights and give them out and then count those as part of the attendance.

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  sbf21

How does “unsold tickets” turn into “unfair rights?”

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

The Yankees haven’t sold it every game in many years. And it’s obvious that they inflate the announced attendance figures when you see all of the empty prime location seats at every home game.

Since they moved to the new Stadium their prices are preposterous. Up to $2000. For one seat. I attended one game the year it opened (2009) and have not gone back since. I honestly find it to be seriously offensive. I would enjoy SenorGato’s take on the house that George built. I’d probably agree with him!

However, Judge’s real monetary value will be in YES revenue. Their ratings were thru the roof resulting in much higher rates to advertisers.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

The Yankees also have a lot of uncertainty in the offense.
They needed a lineup anchor with a a high floor.
Judge may not repeat his 2022 numbers but he has a pretty high likely level of performancem

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Performancem was just added to the periodic table in 2013, leave it to the damn Yankees to hog a naturally occurring element…

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

So that’s what they gave to Matt Carpenter.

OddBall Herrera
3 years ago

Personally, I think it’s pretty transparent that he would be crazy to turn that extension down, that it’s not even an ego thing if you treat it as one massive contract instead of two semi-massive ones, and that his comments about opting out are more about bumping up that offer than they are about actually opting out

Last year was a career year, which means that if you had to bet you would bet against him meeting or exceeding those stats this year. So he stands to go to the bargaining table EOS with less clout than he has right now

Then again, maybe he is just betting on the Yankees,Mets and Giants bidding war to get into silly money territory

Last edited 3 years ago by OddBall Herrera
fjtorres
3 years ago

Is that such a bad bet? Especially the Giants: big money no big names.

Pepper Martin
3 years ago

I can’t see the Yankees paying excessive money for Machado. The Giants may overspend on a deal that will be underwater immediately, but the Yankees already have too many big money contracts for players in their 30’s. In 2026 — so, three seasons after this coming season — the Yankees will still be paying Judge (34 years old) $40 million, Cole (35) $36 million, Stanton (36) $29 million, Rodon (33) $27.8 million, and LaMahieu (37) $15 million.

lorena1959
3 years ago

Still trying to figure out what Mo put in Arenado’s coffee back in December that kept him from opting out?

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  lorena1959

Pointing out the Cardinals are always paying meaningful games in late sept?

Daniel Idell
3 years ago

Why do the $ per WAR numbers drop in the future?

Shouldn’t they be going up each subsequent year? This has 1 WAR worth $6.5M in 2029.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Daniel Idell
  • The number hasn’t grown within the mainstream in like 20+ years and is too damn high anyway according to science and math
  • Players are debuting later which lowers their real earning potential
  • Teams have more control of service time, playing time, and more cost certainty in general
  • Workers in general are going to make less with the heavy artificial inflation and gouging showing up in response to any tiny, temporary step forward in wages
  • More public (and private) support than ever for our overseers, our guiding lights
  • There’s a poop ton of cheap, optionable players who can be 2-3 and out…more than ever…The player pool is *massive* in this post-pandemic era btw MLB, MiLB, and NCAA

Something like that…definitely wouldn’t be a shocking development under the circumstances

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago
Reply to  Daniel Idell

$/war isn’t linear, the first (and 7th) WAR is worth less than the 3rd.

SenorGato
3 years ago

To all you cats worrying about payroll efficiency, Future, our owners being held captive by the insatiable greed of these Aging grifters….Fear not! The Future you desire is right around the corner! Do not think for a second our lords have sat idly by! Machado *may* sneak through – even as we fight the good fight – but understand this is only one battle in a war that we *will* win with our lords

sbf21
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Power to the People
Power to the People
Power to the People
Power to the People.
Right On!

SenorGato
3 years ago

Take heart…The Rays, who control usage and playing time of the players in the org, beat Ryan Anderson in arb by banging on his lack of usage against LHH…Our lords know what they’re doing and The Future is bright (for them! Hallelujah!) even if this aging, grifting thug Machado takes a round:

https://twitter.com/R_Thompson15/status/1628585210404126720?s=20



Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Did you get into the bath salts again

darren
3 years ago

That is one pessimistic projection for Machado. Look at it compared to Bogaerts, for example:

Bogaerts 31-40: 26.7 WAR
Machado 31-40: 19.9 WAR

However:

Bogearts age 31: 119 OPS+, 4.5 WAR
Machado age 31: 137 OPS+, 5.2 WAR

Bogearts age 35: 103 OPS+, 2.7 WAR
Machado age 35: 107 OPS+, 2.0 WAR

Machado starts out better, but ages far worse. But why? His hitting falls off faster, but he remains a slightly better hitter through age 35. His playing time is one factor. Even thought Macahdo has missed 13 fewer games than Bogaerts the past 3 years, by age 35 he’s projected for about 15 percent less playing time. But that is only part of it. It’s hard to tell without defense listed in the table above, but it appears that is another place where he is expected slip more quickly than Bogaerts.

My suspicion is that there is something in ZIPS that looks at Machado being a 3B and Bogaerts being a SS and adjusts their aging accordingly. That really hurts Machado specifically as he seems far more comparable to a SS than most 3B.

darren
3 years ago
Reply to  darren

Start Manny with the 5.2 WAR he’s projected for age 31, and give him Xander’s aging curve, and he comes out at 31.7 WAR. That sounds high to me, but so did Xander’s projection. I’d guess he ends up in the middle between 19.9 and 31.7–about 25 WAR?

darren
3 years ago
Reply to  darren

darn, I wish I could delete all of this. I used the wrong table. Feel free to ridicule me!

darren
3 years ago
Reply to  darren

Correct comparison:

Bogaerts 31-40: 26.7 WAR
Machado 31-40: 19.9 WAR
However:
Bogearts age 31: 119 OPS+, 4.5 WAR
Machado age 31: 129 OPS+, 4.5 WAR
Bogearts age 35: 103 OPS+, 2.7 WAR
Machado age 35: 104 OPS+, 1.7 WAR

So the same conclusions apply, I guess. Machado ages worse on offense, defense, and staying in the lineup. One more thing we can see is that the two players are projected for 4.5 WAR at age 31, but Machado is a better hitter. So he must project worse on defense/baseunning, which I find hard to believe.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

So, uh, are we still thinking it was such a bad and dumb idea for Machado to turn down the 10/$255M offer, since it was so clearly already above his true “value”? I feel like today I’m seeing 95 million or so fairly clear arguments in favor of his negotiating approach, and at least that many against this column’s take.

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago

How could we know the Padres owner was that big of an idiot?

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

Ah good, there’s nothing at all to be learned from reality’s stubborn defiance of prediction, then. What a relief!