Picking My Four Years

Last week, I asked you a question that took me something like 900 words. Here, I’ll summarize in a sentence: As a baseball fan, would you prefer your team have a stretch of success without a championship, or a championship surrounded by a few years of disappointment? This is the post, with the poll at the end. As my stand-in teams, I used the recent Detroit Tigers and the recent Boston Red Sox. More than 3,500 of you responded. The results were interesting; no matter what, the results were always going to be interesting. Roughly 2,000 of you took the Red Sox. Roughly 1,500 of you took the Tigers. Things weren’t split right down the middle, but they were in the vicinity, with people showing a slight preference for the trophy.

I figured I’d write a short post outlining my thoughts. Because this is based on opinion and emotion, this is necessarily self-centered, and you can consider yourself invited to close this window if you don’t give a hoot what I think. I don’t know why you would. But I started it, so I might as well weigh in at some point. And a number of people asked where I stood in last Friday’s chat.

I’ve thought about it — I’ve thought about it for years — and I know where I am. Before I proceed, though, I want to embed two more polls. These are polls I wish I would’ve initially included. The polls are the same as before, but they’re selective: One is just for fans who’ve witnessed a championship. The other is for the others. I can’t make you vote honestly, but I don’t know what the point would be of trying to troll this. Vote if you’d like! My own thoughts are below.

I take the Red Sox. It’s entirely an individual decision, so there’s no such thing as a right or wrong answer. For me, I take the World Series win and the surrounding letdowns. The biggest part of this, probably, is I haven’t witnessed the Seattle Mariners win the World Series yet. I haven’t seen my favorite hockey team win the Stanley Cup. I did see the Seahawks win a Super Bowl, but I don’t care about football, so it doesn’t work. That didn’t fill the void. I’d like to have the void filled.

This is why I added two more polls — I assume different people will have different answers, based on their own experiences of team success. Those who haven’t seen a title are probably considerably more desperate for a first than others are for a second or a third. I don’t know that to be true, but it seems very likely. An interesting follow-up would examine the significance of additional titles, after the first one, and maybe they almost all feel the same. I guess we’ll see what the polls say.

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I think this is kind of about conditioning. Rationally, I know I should be pleased if my favorite team is really good, even if it ultimately falls short in the postseason tournament. The most a general manager can hope for is that his roster is successful — there’s not really any planning for the playoffs. You can’t rig them. Rationally, success should be its own reward, but when it comes to sports, emotion takes over. I’m emotionally programmed to want that championship far more than anything else. The championship is the goal. Psychologically, that’s true. The only true victory, then, is the final one. To fail to win the championship is to, in some way, have a failure of a season.

Just because I’m not sure I want to feel that way doesn’t mean I don’t still feel that way. As a consequence, losing in the playoffs is extraordinarily painful, and it has a retroactive effect on the months before. It’s impossible for me to think of the 2000 and 2001 Mariners without thinking of the losses to the Yankees in the ALCS. All the positive memories come with an asterisk. The weekend I graduated college, I watched the Ottawa Senators win in overtime and advance to the Stanley Cup. It was the best sports had ever made me feel, until I went to the Stanley Cup in Anaheim and everything was much worse. I can still enjoy some highlights from the year, but there’s no escaping the knowledge of how that team eventually got steamrolled. The whole season is rendered bittersweet.

There are dual considerations: There’s the experience of following a team at the time, and then there’s looking back upon the seasons when they’re finished. Quite obviously, it’s more fun to follow a good team than a bad one. This is why so many people chose the Tigers. The Tigers allowed their fans to be mostly happy. The Red Sox have been a wreck for the majority of their games. Why not pick the most day-to-day happiness? To me, though, I think the value of a championship blows the other stuff away. On the enjoyment scale, following a good team might rate as a seven. Following a bad team might rate as a four. (Even bad teams have interesting stuff to talk about.) Winning a championship might rate as a 20. These numbers are totally made up, but I figure there’s a bigger difference between a championship and an ordinary good year than there is between an ordinary good year and an ordinary bad one.

In the bad years, you’re still following your favorite team. Maybe less than you’d like, but you still follow. You still get to watch the sport. You can focus on player development and prospects and talent acquisition. When seasons are over, you get to have a regular offseason. More talk about talent acquisition, and so on. It’s really not that bad because there are always some positives somewhere. If you have interested friends, a bad year can be something to bond over. Given success or failure, sports can still revolve around community. A bad team doesn’t have to be a waste of your time.

Following a good team keeps you more hooked. There’s leverage, and stakes, and that sort of pure emotion that in the moment feels absolutely important. Sports-emotion is real, if silly, and a good year comes with more good moments than a bad year. This is all obvious, but then a good year without a championship ends in crushing disappointment. It ends with steps not taken. That good year doesn’t live forever in the memory. At least, not unblemished. It will fade away.

A championship, I’m given to believe, sticks. Every little part of it. Every anecdote, every transaction, every glorious highlight, every deceptive lowlight. Every year, fans somewhere get to believe theirs was a team of destiny, engineered to win from the beginning, and there’s no disproving it. Losing in the playoffs pulls everything down. Winning in the playoffs pulls everything up. Even lowlights become highlights. It’s adversity, overcome. I know this is all me speaking of other peoples’ experiences, but if you want to state it simply, it really is summed up in the expression that flags fly forever. In a championship season, everything necessarily breaks right. That’s something I want to experience, more than I’d want to experience four solid years of unfinished business.

Your mileage varies. It has to do with your level of tolerance for watching a bad team. It has to do with how much you value a playoff run. It has to do with how much you let a conclusion color everything that came before it. And it has to do with how often you reflect. It seems to me, most seasons die when they’re over. A championship year is eternal. I want to have that in my experience vault. I want to have seen something I know was special, as opposed to something I had to convince myself was all right.

I’d want the championship, like a lot of you. A different lot of you went the other way, and nobody’s wrong. It’s never a bad idea to consider what we’re even in this for. I’m clearly not in it just for wins, because I can find satisfaction in failure. But it’s precisely that ability that makes me willing to tolerate more of it, provided it comes with one sweet, final triumph. Me? I just want to know.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

86 Comments
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Malcolm Butler
10 years ago

You’re lucky you don’t care about football or the Seahawks or you may have committed Hari-kiri last February.

Kirk
10 years ago
Reply to  Malcolm Butler

I know Jeff says that he doesn’t care about football, but I was with him when we won that Super Bowl and Jeff was just as elated as the rest of us. He was pretty down after the game last year, too.

Kyle
10 years ago

My reason for choosing the “Tigers” run: I am a Blue Jays fan and my child-through-teen-through-young-adult sports life has been a nightmare. Just making the playoffs would basically be a championship.

Buctober
10 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Us Pirate fans know the feeling. For a while there just getting over .500 would have been enough reason to celebrate.

Mike
10 years ago
Reply to  Buctober

I’m also a Pirates fan and I voted for the 4 year period that included a championship. I agree with the concept about the happiness that comes with winning a championship.

Also, as a Steelers fan in football, I would STILL pick the period of time that included a championship over a run of success. Once my team has won a few championships in my lifetime, any season that DOESN’T end in a championship almost feels like a non-event. Yes, that’s a very entitled point of view, but it’s a hard one to shake.

20longyears
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike

I’m a Pirates fan as well, but I would take the Tigers four years, simply because that losing year in the middle would be so painful. If I were the fan of another team I think I’d take the up-and-down of the Sox; I want the championship. But as a Pirates fan, plummeting down to the depths would make it seem like the two decades of losing had returned. The Bucs were a laughingstock for too many years, and I wouldn’t want to endure the collapse year.

Mike
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike

There’s another practical aspect to this as well…a bad season allows us the ability to tune out, which isn’t a terrible thing. I, for one, have other things that I’m interested in besides baseball, but when my team’s in a pennant race I’m glued to the games every night and all weekend…without a championship to go with that, it makes it seem like a lot of wasted time.

When the team’s bad, you watch when you want, ignore what you want and don’t feel like you’re missing anything.

BJ Birdie
10 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

I’m also a Jays fan but remember as an 8 year old kid watching Joe Carter run the basepaths and that will stay with me forever and has made the last 22 years of Jays fandom tolerable. The Maple Leafs, even though they’ve also been terrible for a while, I’ve seen them in the playoffs multiple times over the last 20 years and would trade all of them for a Stanley cup.

Jason B
10 years ago
Reply to  BJ Birdie

Jays fan here also, saw the 1992-93 championships on TV when I was 13 and 14. I voted Tigers, I would just like to see some postseason appearances after such a loooooooooong, long drought.

Eric the Snail
10 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Tiger fans who are around my age grew up with the 1994-2005 team. 12 years with an average of 66 wins per 162 games.

After that, I’ll gladly take the last few years.

Jim Price
10 years ago
Reply to  Eric the Snail

Yes I’m there too. 2006 knocking out the Yankees was about as close as you get as a substitute for WS win. especially just 3 years after being the worst baseball team I ever saw in 2003.

Paul Kasiński
10 years ago

I wonder if there should be a third option for fans who have never witnessed their teams make the playoffs. Because watching the Blue Jays in October has always seemed like an unobtainable goal to me.

John
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul Kasiński

As a pirates fan who was 2 years old when Bonds left via free agency, I 100% know the feeling. 2013 was awesome enough to make all the down years worth it for me.

Paul Kasiński
10 years ago
Reply to  John

Yeah, that’s kind of how I’d imagine this year being. Even if we made the playoffs but didn’t win a championship, it’d probably feel like the equivalent of a World Series win for fans of other teams.
It’s also interesting how our teams’ lack of succes has differed. I wonder which would be more frustrating: being constantly awful and out of contention like the Pirates were for so long, or regularly knowing you were good enough to make the playoffs like the Jays, but being held back by bad luck (underperformed our Pythag 12 of the past 15 seasons) and a stacked division.

Big JgkeMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul Kasiński

I am seriously curious what the distribution of answers to these polls was for Jays fans who witnessed the championship years and those who didn’t.

Personally, I can’ imagine how i would feel about the team if I hadn’t grown up watching Pat Gillick slowly evolve them into a monster, but instead had grown up watching the Gord Ash/JP Ricciardi meltdown experience.

Shaun
10 years ago

I’ll take the 1936-1939 Yankees with my allotted four years.

durn
10 years ago

2007-2011 would have been heart-wrenching had the Phillies not won one WS. It would make these past years burn even deeper scars.

Dave
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

This. 1 million times… this.

Andy
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

I think a lot of Phillies fans who may also be Eagles or Sixers or Flyers fans have the emotional raw data on which way to pick very near at hand. Give me the ring. For me personally, it is connected even though baseball is my favorite.

Cool Lester Smooth
10 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Bradford and Murray had better stay fucking healthy this season…

McNeilDon
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

I’m a 35 year-old Philadelphia sports fan and I don’t remember the 1980 World Series or the 1983 NBA Finals. But, I do remember game 7 of the 1987 Stanley Cup Finals, the impact of Jerome Brown’s death on the 1992 Eagles, Games 4 and 6 of the 1993 World Series, the Flyers “choking situation” int the 1997 Stanley Cup Finals, Scott Stevens knocking out Eric Lindros in Game 7 of the 2000 Eastern Conference Finals, the 2001 NBA Finals, the NFC Championship games in 2001, 2002, and 2003, and the Super Bowl in 2004.

October 29, 2008 makes all of those other memories not really matter, and also makes 2009, 2010, and 2011 seem kind of meaningless, despite the Phillies’ success during those years. So, obviously I took the Red Sox window.

However, I think if the Phillies had won the World Series in 1993, lost it in 2008, and everything else in Philadelphia sports history was the same, I would have picked the Tigers window.

RCMember since 2016
10 years ago

I think the amount of time since your team has won a championship matters as well. I saw the Braves win a championship 20 years ago, but not since becoming an adult and actually living in the city. Had it been simply 10 years ago, I may have selected the Tigers.

Doug Lampert
10 years ago
Reply to  RC

With me, I think it’s the lack of championships while I was growing up that does it.

I watched the Red Sox have good seasons, and blow it in August.
Or good seasons, and blow it in September.
Or good seasons, and blow it in the playoffs.
Or good seasons, and lose the series.

Good seasons are just a bunch of games you win. The Sox aren’t doing anything this year, but they’re still giving me a bunch of games they win, just a smaller bunch.

Meaningful games are meaningful because they end with a flag.

My wife grew up watching the Cardinals win the series every so often, she takes the Detroit years.

Dr. Obvious
10 years ago

As a Blue Jay fan who saw two titles in the two years of my life I probably watched the least amount of baseball (my age 19-21) – give me a title and misery over no title..

As a Seahawk fan – I prayed for years I would live to see 1 Superbowl…I got it so now I just enjoy the ride no matter what happens

Flags fly forever…

Pat's Bat
10 years ago

As a Giants fan, I feel dirty voting in this poll.

AF
10 years ago
Reply to  Pat's Bat

I think the Giants (and the Cardinals, and the Yankees, and the Phillies, and even the Red Sox — pretty much every WS winner of the century except for the Marlins) show that the best way to win a championship is to aim for multi-year stretches of success. Sure, the Giants got lucky to win the WS three times, but you can’t do that without making the playoffs three times, and they were focused on making the playoffs in the dread odd-years as well. Winning a WS upon making the playoffs is largely a crap shoot but you can’t win if you don’t play.

Anon21
10 years ago
Reply to  AF

Counterpoint: Braves.

AF
10 years ago

The problem with this poll is that the best way to win a championship is to have a stretch of success; since winning the WS upon making the playoffs requires uck, the way to maximize the chances of winning a WS is to make the playoffs multiple times. Sure, the Marlins got lucky a couple of times, but the most likely outcome of aggressively mortgaging your future to win now is a playoff loss followed by years of rebuilding. So while this question is interesting in the abstract, it isn’t really meaningful to real-world choices of teams or their fans.

AF
10 years ago
Reply to  AF

luck

Professor Ross Eforp
10 years ago
Reply to  AF

This is true, and that’s why I gave both answers below 🙂

arc
10 years ago
Reply to  AF

Fans have no control over their teams, so I don’t see how that is a “problem” with the poll. It’s just a fun thought experiment.

TKDC
10 years ago
Reply to  arc

Some fans actually think they are better people because the team they cheer for wins.

Orsulakfan
10 years ago

I don’t know which poll to participate in. I mean, I saw the Orioles win the World Series in 1983, and it was exciting, but I was 9 and didn’t become a big baseball fan until 1986. And, of course, the Orioles have not won in that time, and have spent a lot of time being terrible.

Both of these experiences – the lack of a title in 32 years and the experience of enjoying (seriously!) watching a consistently bad team – makes it a no-brainer for me: 4 years with one championship and 3 losing seasons I’d take in a heartbeat.

Professor Ross Eforp
10 years ago

As an avid reader of Fangraphs and a person that is generally more interested in the process than the results, give me the Tigers. If I have to surround 1 great team with 3 really crappy team or choose a team that is pretty good over the course of 4 years (but never as good as the great team), then I will take the latter.

With that said, once we know what has happened, I have to say as an Indians fan to just give me the championship. The only team I root for that has ever won a championship is Ohio State. As a fan in the 90’s, I essentially saw an enlongated version of the Tigers. It was great to watch every year, but once they finally won a title it seemed to change my whole fandom. I had seen what I wanted to see, and it was great, but it seemed less important. I obviously wanted to see it again (and got to!), but it will never be the same.

regular guy
10 years ago

All I honestly care about my team is that they are relevant in September.

jacaissie
10 years ago
Reply to  regular guy

I like this concept–one of the loneliest feelings in the world is loving a sport, and having your team be irrelevant in discussions about who is going to win the championship.

Pirates Hurdles
10 years ago
Reply to  regular guy

Agreed, with the crapshoot that the playoffs are, I’d much rather have the team be playoff bound every year than suffer 3 out of 4 terrible seasons. The regular season lasts 6 months, I’d take a good run at that over one magic October.

RA Dickeys Lost UCL
10 years ago

Reds fan who started following in 2000-2001. Waited 10 years to see them get to the playoffs in 2010, got destroyed by the Phillies and no-hit. 2012-win 96 games, and 1st 2 playoff games, lose next 3. 2013- Cueto! Cueto! chants in the WC game. The embarassing playoff losses really overshadows the joy of those regular seasons. Take the ring.

Roy Halladay
10 years ago

HOW DO YOU THINK IT FEELS TO GET TAKEN DEEP BY CODY ROSS!? #SORRYDOC

John
10 years ago

“It’s really not that bad because there are always some positives somewhere.”

As someone who followed the Dave Littlefield era Pirates, let me tell you, this statement is NOT true. Having a 65-win team with a terrible farm system and no plan for the future is depressing. The off-season was probably worse. We got to look forward to predicting which washed-up player would come to the Pirates because no one else wanted them. The only good thing the Pirates had going for them for about 10 years was PNC Park.

Matt
10 years ago
Reply to  John

“Having a 65-win team with a terrible farm system and no plan for the future is depressing.”

I wonder if the inverse of this isn’t at least part of what influences selection of BOS here. Since we’re talking 2011-14 Sox, we are all aware that the organization continues to have a bright future (and we’re aware that the team “should” have been good in a lot of these off years, which fact may carry a unique amount of influence on Fangraphs). A more interesting contrast against the Tigers option might be the 96-99 Marlins — very little hope and one championship vs. lots of hope and no championship.

Anon21
10 years ago

The Braves’ 2013 is a good example for why I picked the Tigers’ run. Embarrassing the arrogant Nationals the way they did, especially beating them so many times head-to-head, was a season-long buzz. The playoff loss felt fated, and while it was very painful, it hasn’t spoiled my memory of the regular season.

August
10 years ago

I am a Rangers fan, almost 30 years of great memories at this point. 2010-2012 were great obviously. But it will always have the Game 6 asterisk. I definitely just want that one magical year more than anything.

Bitten Corndog
10 years ago
Reply to  August

If I ever become a father, I’ll name my child Gamesixof Worldseries Twentyeleven.
And I’m not even a Cardinals fan.

MikeIsGreat
10 years ago

As a Mets fan since 1995, I take the ring. My answer changes if you change the question slightly (as I’m sure most would too). If the question was “would you rather be the a playoff team 4 years in a row but the playoff results are unknown, or would you rather take the one playoff run if you knew you would win the World Series”. I think the issue here is that we know that the Tigers did not win. At the time, every year they made the playoffs they had a chance. The Red Sox only made it once but they won. It’s hindsight that causes me to pick the Red Sox. For those who have never seen a championship, I think the question becomes more interesting if you have the possibility of winning one year with the Tigers run. I’d much prefer sustained success over one good year, even if that one year meant a ring, assuming I thought I had a chance. In this question I know the Tigers will not win, so how can I pick them? It’s about rings, baby.

ceee
10 years ago

For me, I would choose the Tigers.
Past performance really doesn’t matter, it’s all about future performance.
Consistently being ranked as a division favourite increases my future potential of a championship(s). Where as the Red Sox – one off championship is not really sustainable and chance of winning/ competing for a championship again are slimmer than that off Detroit.

Canard
10 years ago

It’s interesting how some teams have experienced success and don’t get a high anymore unless they win a title, while fans of other teams haven’t seen the playoffs in their lifetime and would be happy merely making the playoffs.

It’s kinda like the difference between Manchester United fans and Everton fans. It’s not that one fan-ship is better than the other, it’s just different.

Guy
10 years ago

The only bad thing about not winning a championship is the jerk fans of teams who have won one rubbing it in your face like it wasn’t luck and they had something to do with it.

durn
10 years ago
Reply to  Guy

As an Eagles fan that’s all I hear my entire life. Like the Cowboys fan that was born in Ohio and brags about all of his superbowl rings. Dude, they couldn’t have done it without you.

LeBron James
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

Uh…of course they couldn’t have done it without me. I’m the best player in the world.

Cool Lester Smooth
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

Fuck Dallas.

jacaissie
10 years ago

I know this is baseball, but as a Patriots fan, all I can think about is our 18-1 season when reading this. The helmet catch was possibly the most painful sports moment of my life, and that’s all I remember about that season.

durn
10 years ago
Reply to  jacaissie

But do the wins make up for it?

jacaissie
10 years ago
Reply to  durn

The wins are awesome. If you offered me 19-0 in exchange for the 4 rings, no way I’d take that deal.

I’m just pointing out that the failure to win a championship can really tarnish an amazing regular season.

Brett W
10 years ago

Cubs fan. Not 108 years old yet. Take the ring.

Kei Igawa's RC Copter
10 years ago

Among Yankee fans I don’t know how representative my thoughts are. I picked the Red Sox option, but when I look back on the memorable moments of recent Yankeedom, a disproportionate amount of them come from the “failed” runs of 2001-2004. I wouldn’t trade them for the championship runs, but damn if they weren’t great years for fans that enjoy compelling baseball regardless of result.

bilal
10 years ago

i agree with that sentiment. it’s also like comparing oranges and apples with regards to baseball regular season and playoffs. for example, a great starting rotation will win more games in the regular season but not translate over necessarily to the postseason. whereas team with great bullpens tend to do better in october, but not in the regular season. (see 1996 yankees and 2011 phillies.)

Cool Lester Smooth
10 years ago

Yanks fan, and I’d take Detroit. “WS or bust” is nice and all, but playoff baseball is awesome, even when you lose.

The last two years have been so frustrating. I definitely wouldn’t go through the Sox’s 11, 12 and 14 to relive 09.

bilal
10 years ago

i think in baseball it’s unique in that you follow your team on an everyday basis. whereas football, is just one game a week, and thus for me losing is alot more tolerable. however in baseball it’s just torture to endure 6 months of losing every year. a good baseball team gives you a daily satisfaction multiplied many times over. whereas in other sports you can go several days without seeing your team play. with that being said, i still chose the championship because well flags fly forever, and it does shut up the obnoxious rival fans to some degree.

Eric
10 years ago

Being an avid Blackhawks fan (and seeing the White Sox win it 10 years ago), give me the Tigers 4 year stretch 🙂

DUTCH4007
10 years ago

This is a great question because it is a hard choice. I choose the Tigers run because it reminded me of the 84 championship season. If I did not have that memory I would have chosen Boston. Being irrelevant is the worst vote Tigers winning it all is the best vote Boston.

daydreamer
10 years ago

Looking back – championships rule but looking forward not so much. A consistently winning team is much more fun to follow than one that occasionally wakes up and wins. Think about all those months of a winning versus a losing season and all the conversations and activities such as going to a game or getting together with friends to watch. Been a Bluejays fan since the beginning and I’m almost as excited about the fact that the guts of our offence will be back next season as I am about our long awaited success right now.

Wobatus
10 years ago

I think a better way to look at this is where you don’t know the outcome. Would you rather have a team that tries to compete every year, stays within its means, spends somewhat but not crazily, and sometimes holds back prospects instead of making big deadline deals. Or a team that every few years goes for broke, way overspends, tries for a championship, trades prospects for current value, then tears it down completely and waits a few years to try again.

Because, sure, championships are great. But you might not get the championship. The Yankees spent on McCann, Ellsbury, Beltran and Tanaka last year but missed out on the playoffs. Now they doing well this year thus far but of their 9 top position players by WAR, only 1 is below 31 years old (Didi). Their 2 best by WAR are 35 and 40. All the big contracts are still there for next year. Plus CC’s and Tanaka’s. But hey, they have plenty of money and keep finishing above .500. When the Mets tried to go for it, they never won that title, Madoff came along and blew their budget as well, and it has taken years to get back.

Knowing you win the title changes the equation.

Kenny
10 years ago

An A’s fan since 1989 (when I moved to Oakland/Berkeley for school) who got plenty of pleasure out of the 2000-2006 period and the 2012-2014 period, I took the Tigers unhesitatingly in the first poll because the number of days and months you have something worth watching is so much greater. To which I would add only the following: the point is overachieving, surprises, unexpected discoveries that lead to success. Even (gasp) luck! The pain of Tigers or Rangers fans in recent years is knowing they missed great opportunities to teams that were no better or objectively worse. I wouldn’t want to be a Red Sox or a Tigers during this period – sure the 2013 championship was nice but three years of crap from players that were projected to win? If life had put me in Kansas City I’d be having a great time right now, regardless of the pain that will come when the Royals don’t win the series; and if I were in my birth home in Queens, I’d just be laughing every day, while having no particular expectations for the playoffs.

Maverik
10 years ago

Tigers for me because multiple years of success show effective planning and execution, but missed their slice of luck due to injury, statistics, general volatility, etc.

A one and done team had it all together for one year, but because they get the one year, it’s more fluky, or the stars were aligned.

triple-A city
10 years ago

Did everyone else vote in both polls as well? I feel like I have enough sports-emotion compartmentalization to assess both approaches given different teams from different sports I like. But maybe that’s not true, you’re only supposed to vote if you’ve never seen any championship ever, like Jeff? I voted in both, I hope that’s not cheating. Maybe it was the whole point anyway.

Chris G
10 years ago

I’ve been a Blue Jays fan since ’89. ’92 was awesome and ’93 made it that much more spectacular! I have a ringtone on my phone that is the call of Joe Carter’s home run that won the series in ’93, and I still truck it out every once in a while. But as great as it was winning back-to-back World Series championships, the depths they’ve reached in the years that followed were horrible. And its made worse being in the division they’re in; the Yankees and Red Sox have played in 11 of the 20 World Series’s since the Blue Jays last won, with 8 wins between them. Hell, even Tampa Bay made it to the World Series in that time! Don’t get me wrong, after all that, I would love for the Jays to win the Series this year; but after finishing 3rd or worse in the AL East 19 of those 20 years(the year we finished 2nd, we finished 9 games back of the Wild Card winner), I will take an AL East Pennant to distract me from the fact that this year’s team will in no way resemble next year’s team at all.

Give me a banner…and a lot of good years sandwiched between title wins.

Giants fan
10 years ago

I echo the sentiment others have suggested that there be an additional poll for fans of teams who haven’t made the playoffs in a long time. In fact, I think it would be interesting to have two separate questions: (1) which 4 years (Jeff’s question), and (2) what the voter’s favorite team is. Obviously, there would be some small sample sizes for some/all teams, but one could always group the data later. I’m mentioning this, because my guess would be Giants fans would prefer the Red Sox years, as we went a long time without championships (despite good teams) and then just won three titles split by years of not makign the playoffs.

dilettante
10 years ago

“In the bad years, you’re still following your favorite team.”

5 years ago, this was 100% true for me. Now? Not so much. There are so many things that attract my interest besides a last-place baseball team. I’d often rather literally stop to smell the flowers. When I’m watching baseball, I’m more likely to follow some other team because I’ve already watched my long-time favorite lose for about a decade. Losing sucks. Losing all the time sucks more. Also life is short and brutal. Have a nice day.

Brian
10 years ago

As an Orioles fan who has never seen a World Series championship, I voted for the Tigers four year period.

What Jeff didn’t discuss is that beyond the four year period you don’t know what your team will look like. In terms of probability, if your team is garbage 3 out of 4 years, most likely that run will continue. So how different would the poll be if instead we talked about an 8 or 10 year period? How many Red Sox voters would change their votes if they had to endure an Orioles-like 14 year run of embarrassment for just one championship (which, of course, we didn’t get).

I can understand enjoying watching a bad team, but if you care about your team winning, nothing can beat, well, winning. I remember too many dozens of games with smug, vulgar, rude, bandwagon fans of [let’s just say “other teams”] taking over Camden Yards and absolutely ruining the experience of going to the ballpark by just personally making you miserable.

I went to a game against one of these “other teams” last month, and the Orioles dominated them and took the W handily. The bandwagoneers started out with their usual shenanigans but by the 4th they were silent and by the 6th they were streaming for the exit. Needless to say, this pleased me greatly.

I’ll take the day-in and day-out probability of winning with a really good team any day, even if it means watching the Royals BABIP their way to an ALCS sweep at the end. That hurt for a few days, but the previous 6-7 months were amazing. From my perspective of enduring an entire childhood and young adulthood of mostly terrible baseball, give me consistent quality, exciting teams over more of the same with one “WTF?” year in there.

Mitch
10 years ago

I think it’s useful to draw a distinction between football, where the Super Bowl is the all-encompassing focus 100% of the time and Week 2 wins are analyzed for what it means for a team’s playoffs chances, and hockey, where the Stanley Cup Playoffs are a full two-month endeavor, and MLB, where the regular season overwhelms the playoffs. As an O’s fan born in 1981, I had two good years in the ’90s and now two (plus however 2015 finishes up) good years in the last four. Following the team day-in and day-out during the pennant race is a fantastic experience. I love checking box scores and tracking out of town games while speculating about how the O’s can make up a game in the standings this week. Baseball is an every day game, and the regular season is much better at that than playoffs. I can’t say for sure that I would trade my Delmon Young grandstand shaking bases clearing double to beat the Tigers experience 4 great years of following the team, but I’m sure leaning that way.

Vic Romano
10 years ago

As a Cubs fan — I’ll take 2016-2019 for my 4 years. Not sure exactly where the train is headed, but I’m looking forward to the ride.

highrent
10 years ago

The one thing lost in this. is how fricken likely is it to do what the Red Sox did. Its fairly unprecedented. Truly awful play for 3 years with a championship in the middle with only some light at the end of the tunnel in a tough division. While the Red Sox deserve credit for 2013, this is just as much luck as anything else. I’d take putting good teams day in and day out. If you want to see a world series thats a better bet than what the Red Sox did. More than likely that gets you a lot of heart break instead of triumph.

Allan Paderson
10 years ago

Sometimes a amazing playoff victory can trump the final playoff loss. Being a red sox fan I hear about Fisk’s home run and the 1975 series as a draw not a loss. The legend just grows from some miracle finishes and even though they lost, because they were not given a chance to win against the Reds, it lives on like a victory. My own memory I put the Pedro game of 1999 against the Indians in game 5 and that series. That was a good year, the red sox got creamed in the ALCS 4-1 with Pedro beating Clemens handily but I game 5 is the benchmark and that is what I take from the season as a good ending even though it was far from a championship. I do not believe that all playoff losses are equally awful, a good time with a good run that loses competitively to a better team can still give the fans memories to smile by for years to come.

thirteenthirteen
10 years ago

The first year I really cared about baseball was 1987, and I’m a Giants fan. So I saw many years of good teams (and bad teams, but largely pretty decent and sometimes very good, and often exciting because Barry Bonds) that failed to win a championship. It was enjoyable to have hope and anticipation but ultimately heartbreaking.

Now that I’ve seen my favorite team win the World Series multiple times, I have to say that it is VERY NICE and I liked it VERY MUCH. It’s hard to say how I might feel if the Giants decided to play really crappily for three years after winning the World Series, but there are certainly some periods during the odd years (and during 2014 too, they were HORRRRRRRRRRRIBLE for awhile there) where I cheered myself up by looking at my swag and watching Buster Posey hit a grand slam off Mat Latos repeatedly thanks to the power of gif technology.

Red Sox it is.

Nick Emptage
10 years ago

I’d actually be interested in the following variation on the question:

How many seasons of abysmal baseball would you accept from your favorite team if you were guaranteed one WS win in that time? So, for X seasons, your team would win fewer than, say, 65 games, except for one year where they won it all: how large a value of X would you tolerate?

For example, I discussed this a bit with a friend who’s an Angels fan: if X is 4 (the Sox scenario), he’s fine with it. But if X is 10, not so much. For him, that’s too much bad baseball.

Ashlandateam
10 years ago

One thing stands out to me: expectations. As a Reds fan who was 6 during the last championship (meaning I have no recollection of it, but am aware I was alive for it), lots of terrible years had no pain because I knew the team sucked. If you have low expectations going in, it’s hard to be disappointed. 2015 is exhibit A for this.

On the other hand, 2010 – when the team unexpectedly won the division – was incredibly satisfying, despite the playoff loss. Add in expectations, and suddenly you have a fanbase calling for a manager to be fired after 90 wins and a playoff spot.

The question is incomplete without the variable of expectations. That’s why I have friends who love the Cardinals and aren’t happy with this season because they want to see more runs – they expect greatness, and are disappointed with goodness. And I have friends who are Royals fans and are on cloud 9 because they’ve been conditioned to lose for three decades and every win is a basically a pleasant surprise.

Also, yes – I’m a Reds fan living in Missouri. Baseball is equal parts enjoyable and agonizing as a result.

Matt
10 years ago

I chose 4 straight playoffs as a Mariners fan, but because you shouldn’t know that your team was going to tank/not win a World series during that time. Thus, all 4 years are filled with excitement and the shot at a. Word series (which us ranfm in the playoffs anyways rather than 3 miserable seasons where the most exciting this is the trade deadline

MSpitz
10 years ago

I’m a diehard Jays and Senators fan (hi Jeff!), and less so a Raptors fan…born in 93. So I’ve experienced nothing but disappointment in my life as a sports fan, and yet I would take the Tigers run every time. As stupid as it may sound, I’m almost scared of one of my favourite teams winning a title (especially in a Red Sox-like stretch). How do you get (as) excited at the beginning of the next year? Normally a hockey/baseball season starts and I have new hope…the “Maybe this is finally the year” feeling. But if my team just won the year before, what are you hoping for? “Maybe this is the year…again”? It worries me that I might lose a bit of interest in my favourite team if that’s the case.

In the same way, I still remember all the great Senators teams that broke my heart…but I remember them in a positive way. Sure, I still hate the Ducks because of the 07 finals, but my happiest moment as an NHL fan was when Alfie scored in OT to send them to the finals. I’ll take 4 straight years of playoff contention (or in the Jays case, just the damn playoffs) and the good/bad memories that come with it over 1 year of great memories and 3 years of shit any day of the week.

Chester Guppy
10 years ago

Neither of these options are bad, so it’s not totally black and white. But I voted for the Red Sox. I *am* a Tigers fan and this stretch has been satisfying, but I’d trade the close calls for a World Series plus some garbage years.

Football-wise I grew up a Denver Broncos fan, they’re a good case study. They’ve had very few bad seasons in my lifetime, and I appreciate them. But the late-90s Super Bowl wins are the best, easily. The good-not-great seasons tend to blend together. The Super Bowl wins are special.

Maybe it depends on what kind of fan you are. I’m not a bandwagon jumper but when my team is bad, bland, or uninspiring I still follow but definitely spend time doing other things and not obsessing. I’d hypothesize that fans who obsess over the good and bad teams find sustained success to be more important.

MNMsJrny
10 years ago

As someone who began following sports in the 1970s with the unbelievably awful Giants to go along with indescribably bad 49ers, I’m taking the Red Sox option and the championship. When I read the original article, my first thought was “depends on how long it’s been since your team won everything.” I’ve you’ve never seen your team win the whole thing, you want the ring. If you have, watching a good/winning team is going to be more enjoyable. Right now, Bay Area sports fans are seriously spoiled, especially if you’re a sports fan over 40 who has lived and experienced both the highs of winning it all and the lows of being the worst team in the league. I loved the late 80s/early 90s Giants teams — they were the first ones to win consistently in my memory — so I get the choice of the Tigers option, but was frustrated and disappointed every time they fall short. (Heck, even with the recent run of success Game 6 2002 still pisses me off, though not nearly as much as it used to. And I still boo Jose Oquendo heartily whenever the Cardinals are in town.)

Watching a winning team consistently over a span of several years is vastly more enjoyable than watching a team lose repeatedly over a similar span. And now, having seen 49ers, Giants, and Warriors championships in my life time (and multiple ones at that for the first two) I can be satisfied with “just” having a consistently winning team. I have the memories of winning it all to keep me content in down years (thank you 49ers for proving that statement.)

Ben
10 years ago

I’m a Red Sox fan. I view baseball as being very much different than my other favorite sport, college hockey. In baseball I would gladly take the Red Sox 2011-2014 since even when you are bad you still get to have 70ish wins and plenty of highlights during the season. So even when it is bad, it isn’t that bad. 2013 was amazing and 2012, 2014, and 2015 weren’t really that unenjoyable in my opinion and you still have individuals that you can still enjoy watching like Bogaerts.

Now with college hockey, I attend the University of North Dakota, and would much rather have a Tigers like stretch. You have only 40ish games in a season, which means possibly only 8-10 wins in a season. That is 5-6 months with almost no high points and losses stick in your mind longer as you only play on Fridays and Saturdays. UND hasn’t had a season where they didn’t have a chance to win the national championship since the 2000-2001 season, yet haven’t won any in that time period. Now a team like Wisconsin in that same time period has consistently gone in cycles where they are terrible or bad 3 out of every 4 years and that fourth year they are what UND is every season. And when your team is bad in hockey, no one on the team is fun to watch even if they are great because they aren’t able to stick out without good teammates. When you’re good everyone is fun to watch.

TLDR, bad baseball teams can still be fun to watch and championships are amazing to watch. Bad college hockey teams aren’t fun to watch at any point and even the great seasons that end in disappointment are fun to watch throughout.

stretchfest
10 years ago

Cardinals fan here, I took the championship. I’ve been a fan since the early 90s so the first ‘ship I saw was in 2006. I still remember plenty of details about the Mets and Tigers series. Needless to say, 2011 was bonkers. From those two years alone I probably have 6-7 of my top, I dunno, 25 memories of my life. There is just nothing like watching your favorite team win that last game.

Re your Senators analogy, though, the best Cardinals team I ever saw was probably 2004 (hadn’t seen the Cards in the WS yet). An MVP, a Cy Young, and a team that just steamrolled. Then got swept by the Sawx. As much as I want to remember that team fondly, I can’t forget how it ended, and watching that sweep is one of the worst sports memories of my life.

Bert
10 years ago

I think that in a league where the champion is crowned by ways of play offs, being relevant and watcheable is most important whereas a sport in which the champion is being crowned as per the league standings, e.g. soccer in Europe, it is better to be good once, suck 3 times and be good again.

If you are relevant in the play-off format, there is always the chance that you can win. being in the position to be able to win is preferrable to knowing in advance you will maybe win in a year or 2-3, in my opinion.

Re final table format: Because it is painful to see a fairly competent team but always finishing a few games short of the title, I’d take the glory every once in a while. This might sound contradictory to my previous point but because there is no crapshoot at the end, no title is in sight, while in the play offs there is always the chance, even if it never happens.

Tuffy
10 years ago

As a Chicago Cubs fan, I want our team to finally get that one more World Series victory that has eluded us for generations.

But once you’ve seen your team win it all, just once in your lifetime, I think a consistent winner that comes close but doesn’t make it all the way is better. I enjoyed the Bears’ visit to the Super Bowl in 2006 and wasn’t disappointed when they lost, because I had memories of them making it when I was a kid back in 1986. If I were a decade younger, I’d probably feel differently.

And I don’t care much about “playoffs”. This is less probable now that there are two wild card teams in each league, but I’d rather see a team win 90 games three years in a row, but never be in the playoffs, than win 85 games and sneak in (and not win the WS), or (God forbid) post a losing record and still make the playoffs.

Adam S
10 years ago

I think my answer depends on the sport. For NFL and NBA, I’d take the Red Sox. For MLB and NHL, I’d take the sustained excellence of the Tigers.

For baseball, I’m overwhelmed by the sense that the playoffs are random. Flags fly forever, and that’s THE deciding factor for many, but at the end of the day we’re celebrating getting lucky/hot in October. And the trade off is three miserable seasons.

Someone suggested tuning out the bad seasons. Maybe that’s possible if you don’t follow baseball that closely and are out of market. (I feel that way about my college teams.) Try tuning out a season when you have season tickets and that’s the only team on TV. The last Mariners decade has been miserable — last year aside — and if they win the World Series next year, I don’t think it will be worth it. As a lifelong Cubs fan, the last three years were horrible, though at least there was a clear plan to rebuild so expectations were low, and really just making the playoffs this year cancels that out.