Red Sox Turn Wade Miley Into Potential Bullpen Ace
Most of the time, when you hear about a transaction, you think “yeah, that makes sense.” Free-agent contract terms are seldom surprising. And trades between teams are also seldom surprising, in terms of how much each side seems to be worth. Every so often, though, a move will give you pause. There was a trade between the Red Sox and the Mariners, Monday, and it arrived a little differently than usual. It didn’t make immediate sense for both sides.
After having lost out on Hisashi Iwakuma, the Mariners turned around and picked up Wade Miley, along with Jonathan Aro. They wanted a starter, and they recognized that the Red Sox had some excess depth. Nothing surprising there. Nor was it surprising that the Mariners were willing to include Roenis Elias. The part that engaged the eyebrows was the final piece, that being Carson Smith. What this is, today, is the Wade Miley trade. What this very well might end up looking like is the Carson Smith trade. The Red Sox did well to add a reliever with many years left.
From time to time, you’ll see a move and you’ll think it favors one side. Some moves do favor one side. You can express yourself and stop there, or you can try to think about why the one team might’ve been a willing participant, given that every team has so much information. What it looks like is that either the Mariners are quite fond of Miley, or they’re a little down on Smith. It’s smart to at least try to understand from both perspectives.
Let’s start from the Red Sox perspective. It’s the easier one. By adding David Price, the Red Sox wound up with too many starters, and that’s not a bad situation to be in when the market is going so wild over starters. There’s been talk about Miley, Clay Buchholz, and Joe Kelly. Miley’s the guy to go, at least at this point. He’s under guaranteed contract another two years, with a third-year option.
Miley obviously isn’t nothing, as a 29-year-old who’s surpassed 200 innings. Over two years, he’ll get paid right around $15 million; over three, he’d get right around $27 million. That’s not a bad rate for a decent starter. But now let’s consider a point of reference: J.A. Happ. Happ recently signed for three years and $36 million, and, like Miley, he’s left-handed. Over the past three years, they have an almost identical ERA-, and an almost identical FIP-. On the one hand, Happ is older; on the other hand, Happ has been excellent more recently. They’re comparable pitchers, so while Miley will be underpaid relative to what he could get on the market, it’s not a dramatic difference. He’s a decent asset.
Miley, to be sure, is better than Elias. Elias is functional starter depth, and maybe one day he’s in the bullpen. Elias is a small-time piece, in the way that Aro is a small-time piece. Smith is the get. Smith is the kind of guy Dave Dombrowski could’ve gone out to get, if he didn’t want to pay the premium price for someone more established. Smith is a guy some teams might’ve considered as a quieter alternative to Craig Kimbrel. Dombrowski just went ahead and got them both.
The comparison I have stuck in my head is between Smith and Ken Giles. They’re both young, with some ninth-inning experience. They both have five remaining years of team control. They’ve both struck out a third of opposing hitters. They’ve both allowed a similarly-low batting line. Giles throws a harder fastball, but on performance alone, they’re extremely similar. Teams have called the Phillies on Giles, and they’ve talked about upper-class prospects. The Phillies were said to have asked the Astros about Lance McCullers and Vincent Velasquez. The Phillies want a haul for Giles. The Red Sox got Smith for Wade Miley.
In case you don’t know how good Smith just was: he was fifth among relievers in WAR. He was simultaneously a strikeout machine and a groundball machine, so he didn’t get hit, not even by lefties. This is an offseason in which it looks like good relievers will be heavily rewarded, so it feels like it should’ve taken more to pry Smith away. Especially since the Mariners think they’ll contend, themselves, and now their bullpen is far more thin. They need a Carson Smith. They needed another Carson Smith when they still had Carson Smith.
From the Red Sox side: they dealt a cost-controlled starting pitcher who can look like a No. 3. They added a young reliever who, statistically, compares to many of the best relievers in the game. If you believe in Smith’s numbers, you like this trade for Boston. You have to. Smith could have long-term closer potential. He’s already been excellent.
Flip it around, now, and look at this from the other side. The Mariners dealt a starter and a reliever for a starter and a reliever. Miley is fine, and he’s looked better than that before. He’s fairly young and he’s been durable, and it’s good to have a proven pitcher locked up for up to three years at a modest price. Miley would get more than Happ on the market. Maybe he’d get something like the Iwakuma deal, or even the pending Mike Leake deal. It would’ve cost the Mariners more money to plug the hole with a free agent.
They shouldn’t miss Elias too much. His 2015 was worse than his 2014, and his 2014 wasn’t all that good. He’s probably a sixth or seventh starter. Some of the focus ought to be on Aro. Much of it, of course, remains on Smith.
I don’t want to build Aro into something he’s not, but he just debuted last season. He didn’t pitch much in the majors, but in Triple-A, he did throw a ton of strikes while missing an above-average number of bats. He’s not a copy of Smith or anything, but he’s a guy whose stock is rising, and he should be able to help in the big leagues. He’s not a pointless throw-in.
And then there’s Smith. As I’ve thought about this trade, I’ve thought about the potential difference between what Smith’s been, and what he could become. I have to figure Jerry Dipoto doesn’t quite buy Smith’s numbers as indicators of his ability going forward. I personally like Smith a lot, but I could understand why someone might suggest we’ve already seen him at his best.
Simply understood, Smith is a sinker-slider righty reliever. There are plenty of those, and while there are few of those with Smith’s numbers, he doesn’t throw with eye-popping velocity. As a sinker-slider righty, he’s someone from whom you’d expect a pretty big platoon split. It hasn’t materialized yet, but that doesn’t mean it won’t. There were times Smith was protected from facing many lefties, and that wouldn’t be the case if he became a regular high-leverage reliever. If lefties became a problem, then Smith would look an awful lot less like a ninth-inning option.
Then there’s the matter of Smith throwing sliders with almost half his pitches. In any projection, you have to try to account for individual injury risk, and though doing that well is obviously a challenge, Smith might well be at greater risk. Dipoto might not love Smith’s odds of remaining healthy, and it’s worth noting he had a small velocity decline toward the end of last season. Definitely might’ve been nothing. And maybe his arm is up to the challenge of pitching, as much as anyone else’s is. I’m just trying to present what might be the argument.
As I think about it, I still like this more for the Red Sox. I don’t love Miley’s command, so I don’t love his chances of taking a step forward. As a mid-rotation pitcher, he’s boring, and only modestly valuable. Smith has already resembled an elite reliever, and he’ll cost nothing for years. We don’t understand reliever projections and injuries nearly well enough to say that Smith has peaked. I like what Boston did. I just see why this is also what Seattle did. It’s not insane, and it’s not unjustifiable. It’s just questionable. Unusually so, these days.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
LOL
Dipoto is gettting out of control; you trade your best reliever,possible closer and under team control ,and a sure bottom of rotation guy in Elias for double the salary of both, older, and a 4.46 ERA? Elias is better than that alone. Stop the madness Dipoto!
Let me explode the Hot Stove first.
Could at least add someone that the fans would be excited to see too… so m’s to add excitement machines like Miley, Aoki and Martin
2015 FIP:
Elias-4.52
Me-3.81
Wade Miley is the definition of “sure bottom of the rotation guy.” He had a rough 2015, but he’s been impressively, metronomically average for years.
Smith is actually better than Giles. Their K and BB #s are basically identical but Smith’s GB% is 66% compared to 44% for Giles
I’d agree with all that as someone who, as a 12-year-old, snuck behind his parents’ backs, saved all his snow-shoveling proceeds, and bought weekend-day-game season tickets in Fenway’s Sec 36 with his buddies in 1979. I’d agree, that is, if I wasn’t so leery about trading for relievers. I guess it’s slightly better than giving them huge 4-yr deals but it’s still always a crap-shoot.
…what?
Meanwhile, Giles’ ERA- is 14 points lower, and he’s done it for two seasons.
So? GB pitchers can run high BABIPs and get killed too
Since ground ball data became available Smith and Britton are the only relief pitchers ever to throw 50 innings with a 60% ground ball rate and 30% strikeout rate, both doing it this year.
Since 2012, Mike Leake has put up 8.9 fWAR. He’s exactly one year younger than Miley. This morning there were a bunch of rumors suggesting he’d get something like 5/80. Wade Miley has put up 10.1 fWAR in that time.
Wade Miley would do very very well as a FA, and while we feel like he’s not all THAT great, pitching prices for starters this year are just as crazy as prices for relievers.
In a world where JA Happ gets 3/36 Wade Miley is a really valuable commodity.
J.A. Happ looks like the steal of the offseason so far. 3 WAR season last year, projected for 2.2 next year. Really disappointed my Cardinals didn’t outbid that offer.
Hey, that’s my line.
Steamer projects 1.9 WAR for Elias and Smith and 1.8 for Miley next year.
This year, Elias and Smith combined were worth 2.7 WAR and Miley was worth 2.6. Assessing them on what’s likely to happen or what’s most recently happened leaves them equal, not differing by a win.
It seems like a pretty straight swap on both a WAR provided and WAR projected basis. The Mariners come out better having consolidated that WAR. The Red Sox come out better having gained team control and shed payroll.
I think your analysis actually suggests the Mariners won, because, for the same amount of WAR the Mariners are spending 1 roster slot while the Red Sox are spending 2.
You misread that. Steamer projects 1.9 WAR for Miley and 0.3 for Elias.
Ghug is using the numbers from last year, not the projections. Steamer projects virtually no playing time for Elias, so it’s hard to compare based on that.
Carson Smith is controlled for 5 more seasons. He currently costs $500k per year and will be inexpensive for 3 more years, and reasonably priced for 2 more years after that. He was an elite-level reliever last year providing 2.1 WAR. He was penciled in as the #1 or #2 reliever in the bullpen. He is 26 years old. He has no injury history.
Roenis Elias is controlled for 5 more seasons. He currently costs $500k per year and will be inexpensive for 3 more years, and reasonably priced for 2 more years after that. He was a fringe #5 started for the last 2 years in a part time role, and provided approximately 1.2 WAR per 200 IP. He was penciled in as the #5 or #6 starter. He is 27 years old. He has no injury history.
Wade Miley is controlled for 2 more seasons. He currently costs $6M, and $9M next year. He has averaged 2.5 WAR per season as a starter in a #3 to #5 starter role. He is 29 years old. He has no injury history.
Jonathan Aro is controlled for 5 more seasons. He currently costs $500k per year and will be inexpensive for 3 more years, and reasonably priced for 2 more years after that. He is doesn’t make anyone’s top 10 prospect list in the Red Sox organization. He’s considered a lottery ticket. He is 25 years old. I don’t believe he has injury history.
Elite relievers are currently receiving approximately $9M per year on the open market. That would make Smith worth an estimated $35M surplus value over the 5 remaining years of control.
Starting pitching is going for about $8M per WAR on the open market. That would make Miley worth an estimated $25M surplus value over the 2 remaining years of control. That would make Elias worth an estimated $33M surplus value over the 5 remaining years of control.
Even if you value Aro as $10M surplus value (which I think is way, way higher than reality), the total net of this trade is $33M value in Boston’s favor.
Lastly, this also moves out another key piece from the bullpen, which began the offseason as a major weakness.
None of this is fact, it is opinion backed by available market cost data and projections. That is acknowledged. Hopefully this provides a satisfactory level of detail.
you forgot miley’s option for 12 mil which would add surplus using your method. elias was only worth that much war because of who he played for, the mariners were bad and short on depth and therefor he had to throw more innings. in reality you don’t want him throwing over 100 innings, therefore your surplus valuation on him would be high.
Why would you pro-rate Elias WAR to 200 innings when projecting surplus value? He doesn’t project as a starter in Boston (and wouldn’t for most clubs), he’s more of a possible swingman/depth starter but it’s very unlikely he’d ever surpass 120 innings never mind 200. He’s much more likely to be moved to the pen, and he could be an effective LOOGY or more. Certainly you’re going to inflate his value drastically if you project him as a 200 inning pitcher going forward. That would be a dramatically different pitcher.
Miley is a great bet to pitch around 200 innings next year and the next two to follow. When you underrate the ability of a pitcher to handle a big workload and/or assume anyone can take on that workload you’re going to overrate/underrate a lot of pitchers.
personally i like to pro-rate SP by starts instead of innings. 32 starts insteady of 200ip to be precise.
IP/gs is a skill. Miley as a 6+ip/gs guy is a valuable innings eater, elias as a mid-5s guy will never get to 200ip even if he stays in a rotation all year.
this would only be viable if taking in to account that the nl has pitchers hitting and therefore are more likely to be pulled sooner for a pinch hitter than an a.l guy who is just in til he can’t get outs anymore.
The better NL pitchers don’t get pinch hit for unless they’re losing the game, are tied in a pivotal game, or are getting rested coming back from injury/for the playoffs. All of which would happen in the AL just the same. Plus NL pitchers get near-free outs from their counterparts so it balances out.
This would make some sense if you had the players service time numbers and contracts correct. First off, Aro has 38 days of service time, thus he has six more years of team control. Miley has a team option at the end of his deal that would create extra surplus value as well. Also, Elias and Smith are both pitchers scouts see as being more prone to injury due to their deliveries. Don’t know about Aro but I know Wade Miley is seen as being pretty smooth and not really that big of an injury risk, for a pitcher. Then again, you never know about pitchers.
He also gave Elias an extra season of control, he only has 4.
Nevermind, looked at the wrong sheet on Cot’s.
Um, well, Rabble rabble!!
I think you are underselling Miley. As someone above posted, Miley on the open market is basically Mike Leake. Leake is rumored to be looking at $17-18M AAV over 5 years on the open market. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that if Miley were looking for 3 years max he could come close to $20M AAV. That would put his surplus at $27M over the next 3 years.
As for Smith – 1 more year for let’s say $1M (to keep the numbers round). If he is a dominant closer and qualifies for Super 2 you could easily see salaries (via arbitration) sky rocket. Using Britton as an example, if Smith follows a similar path you could see a total outlay of $30M+ for 5 years. I think a fair evaluation for an unproven but elite level potential bullpen arm on the FA market would be somewhere around $10M/year. So a potential FA cost of $50M while only being paid approximately $30M. A nice surplus of $20M over 5 years.
At the end of the day, I think the trades are pretty darn even. Smith is alluring and Smiley is boring but using reasonable open market valuations I see them as similarly valued assets. Aro and Elias are used to balance out the equation.
“If (Smith) is a dominant closer and qualifies for Super 2 you could easily see salaries (via arbitration) sky rocket. Using Britton as an example…”
But Kimbrel is signed for the next 2-3 years, depending on whether his 2018 option is picked up. So even if Smith has the ability to be a dominant closer, he won’t have the opportunity to rack of saves. When arbitration hits, he’ll be in line for 8th inning money, not 9th inning money.
You wanna talk about rack of saves?!?!
If he continues to perform like Andrew Miller we could assign him Andrew Miller money as a FA.
To be fair, Leake is being valued for having averaged 2.5 rWAR/3 RA9WAR over the past three years, while Miley’s averaged 1.5 rWAR/2.2 RA9WAR over that span.
Teams care about run prevention.
Great writeup but my critique is that Elias has had injury concerns. Strained flexor bundle in his pitching elbow to end the 2014 season.
This is a pretty terrible trade, so I’ll say something nice about Wade Miley. He works incredibly quickly, throws strikes, has a tremendous pickoff move, and never misses a start. He turned out to be a really easy guy to root for.
Wade Miley SUUUUUUCKS!!! He wasn’t good when Boston picked him up and he’s not good now. I can’t believe the M’s bailed out Boston on this one and got NOTHING of value to show for it.
He doesn’t suck.
He’s perfectly, remarkably average.
Jerry does not know what he’s doing.
Horrible trade DiPoto. You started out well with your moves, but letting Kuma walk and then making this moronic trade has me second guessing you. Miley is nothing. Just a back of the rotation arm. An older and worse Elias. M’s got fleeced. And you talk about wanting to improve the bullpen and then you trade your best and youngest arm… f***ing idiot
How did you end up on this website? Can you back up your “worse Elias” remark? No, you can’t, because Miley has produced 10x Elias WAR in double the seasons (2 vs. 4). Roenis got worse this year and Miley had an improved year over his two previous. Not to mention he has put up a 4 WAR year before. Elias has come nowhere near that. Elias is probably a 1.5 WAR upside and more likely to be worth 1 WAR or less. Miley is 2 WAR solidly with much higher upside.
Career ERA:
Miley: 4.07
Elias: 4.16
Career ERA:
Don Leshnok: 0.00
Pedro Martinez: 2.93
Career FIP:
Miley: 3.80
Elias: 4.23
(raises hand to crowd)
Thank you, thank you…
(leans into mic)
This thing on?
[LOUD FEEDBACK]
FYI, on this site we try to keep things civil and refrain from calling people “f***ing idiots.”
WAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!
You couldn’t possibly be a more boring poster. Your comments are utterly worthless.
In defense of Old School, the trade is pretty f***ing stupid for Seattle.
VERY SOLID trade for The Red Sox! In short time, their PEN is now top 7-8, landed a top starter in price, added depth with a solid 4th OF and perhaps they aren’t done. Seems to me, at this moment, Sox nation can start thinking about the playoffs again. Yes!
Things that didn’t exist before 2004: Twitter, YouTube & Red Sox nation.
Dumbest comment on the internet today, amazing. YOU TRIED.
Are you kidding me? We were one of the most long suffering fanbases in sport until 2004. Tough to suffer without any fans. I’m sure every photo at the grave of someone that never saw a World Series win wasn’t really a fan. They were just fair weather corpses.
Something else that probably didn’t exist before 2004: JJ
“Red Sox Nation” has existed since the local college crowd fell in love with the Impossible Dream Team in 1967, dispersed back across the country after graduating, and then continued to root for the team while often passing on their rooting interest (and while new converts continued to attend school in or near the city over the decades).
The only thing that happened in 2004, outside of the championship, was that the fan-base was given a fairly annoying name. But outside of the insufferable Masshole crowd, Red Sox fans have been and will continue to be both loyal and knowledgeable, as with the excellent fan bases of many other teams.
Sean McDonough was making references to “Red Sox Nation” in the late 1990s; the term seems to have popped up around the same time Wally The Green Monster did.
Being a life long Blue Jay fan (since 1978) – I have always hated the Red Sox, but as much as most of their fans deserve to be slapped in the face – they are a hardcore group who have always been very loyal to their team.
They have a more loyal & sports savvy fan base than any other team in their division (including my team)
Red Sox Nation has existed in more or less it’s current form since about 1967. Prior versions existed in the 1940’s and 1901-1919.
I am not a Red Sox fan. In fact, the one game I ever went to at Fenway Park was in 2003, against the Seattle Mariners. I had a seat that was behind a pillar (although I was able to move in the 2nd inning). I was very annoyed with the relentless “RED SOX NATION!!! chants.”
Fairly certain that A) this reply is long enough after the article publishing that it will likely not be read, and B) you made that up because “red sox nation” is never chanted at fenway park. Ever.
I am impressed Mr. DiPoto. Great move getting established talent.
ugh.
another good move by the Sox.
this hurts.
Sure seems like a good trade from the Sox’ POV. If Carson Smith stays healthy and they don’t overwork him, he should be a great high leverage inning guy. Given Sox depth in SPs in wake of Price signing and the sad state of last year’s bullpen for Bosron, it sure did look like Wade Miley was going to be a piece in trade for somebody. He’s unspectacular, yes, but he’s solid, has been consistent, and projects to be better in Mariners’ ballpark. So it’s not totally crazy from the Ms’ POV given THEIR need to fill a rotation spot with a steady lefty. But in this moment I’m still thinking, chalk up another one for Deslin’ Dave Dombrowski: he got his man again (he’s 4-for-4 so far this offseason), and at a rational price.
Can we talk about the number of Red Sox articles on this site? Where the articles on the Blue Jays, Brewers, Twins, Phillies, Padres, DBacks, Reds, and Marlins? I bet Red Sox get more articles this offseason than all those teams combined.
Write one yourself on this free website
http://www.fangraphs.com/community/
Um,
There is currently one Red Sox article on page #1 (note they made a trade and said article is also about the Mariners)
Also on page #1 is an article about: KC, TOR, LAD, OAK, BAL, DET, SF
Had to go back to Dec 3rd to find the next specific BOS article and it was on the Price opt-out
Thanks for playing
Need “guy who claims Jonathan Aro is overrated” and I’ve got red Sox article bingo.
Not one article has been written about the Phillies here or on the corporate sites since Cole Hamels trade was wrapped up.
Any article that would be written about the Phillies would have to be centered on the fact that their owners are enacting the biggest monetary ripoff of their fan base in the history of professional sports.
Google: Kevin Maitan FREE_AEC
I think the Philadelphia 76ers would take the crown in that regard
Each Chan’s movies should focus hoped owns the biggest stage of his fans in the history of professional sports.
Each station will write as in Philadelphia should focus on the fact that the owner of the largest extortion of money from their own fans in the history of professional sports.
Google Kevin @PEE_AEU Maitan
You’re really upset about this, aren’t you?
Phuck the Phillies
Phuck the Red Sox and phuck the Mariners for making them better.
There will be a new Phillies article when they trade Giles to the Rangers
It comes down to what you think of Smith going forward. It’s possible that Jerry Dipoto just wasn’t a big believer in his success. As good as Smith was last year, the most reliable piece in this transaction is Miley.
I don’t think it’s a clear cut win for Boston. I actually think theres a decent chance both teams benefit from it.
Hopefully, the trade works very well for both teams. One wonders, though, if the Red Sox did not value Miley as much in person as they once did on paper.
I think DiPoto was convinced Smith’s man muscles were never going to come in.
When Wade Miley pitches for your team, no one benefits except Wade Miley.
Red Sox traded surplus and Mariners traded for need so that starts in the Sox favor if they want to press for it that way. But the Mariners certainly got value. Lots of responses in this and other posts that Miley is no significant piece. 200 adequate innings is significant. When a team already has 1000 starter innings set it might not need to do this. But with what the Mariners have adding 200 solid innings puts them in a notably better position.
Let’s not overlook the levels of uncertainty in this deal. Miley is a league average starter that will give you 200 IP and probably will be until we’re all dead and gone. Elias has established himself as a AAA depth guy and nothing more. Aro comes with tons of uncertainty, but also isn’t a guy I’m guessing Seattle are relying on. The key piece coming to Boston is Smith, who has one full MLB season. It was a great season, but he’s a guy with a small MLB sample that plays at the least reliable position in the game. I’m sure we can all rattle off 5-10 relievers that had 1-2 great years only to settle into a life of mediocrity if not worse. From Seattle’s perspective, they needed a starter and got one of the most reliable guys in the game. You know what you’re getting with Miley and it’s not that bad, though also not terribly exciting. Smith could continue to excel and be a Top 10 MR in the game, or he could blow his arm out with his over-reliance on bendy stuff, or he could he could regress and end up a solid, but unspectacular reliever. It’s worth noting that he outperformed his AAA rate stats last year, which may be suggestive of some regression in 2016. Personally, I’d rather have a reliable starter signed to a below-market deal for three more years than a crapshoot reliever with upside.
Huh? Elias is a cheaper version of Miley. Seattle didn’t just trade a potentially dominant reliever for a boring starter, they gave up a similar starter as well. Therefore the narrative that the Mariners needed to fill out those innings is a blatant lie. I will agree that we’re more confident in Miley’s 2016 stat line than that of Elias, but it’s not even clear that this is an upgrade in the rotation. Elias had a significantly better swinging strike rate than Miley, a lower contact rate, and throws a higher percentage of strikes while being massively less expensive. This trade is indefensibly stupid.
No, he’s not. Miley puts up 200 innings of an average ERA/FIP a year.
Oenis doesn’t.
Except that he doesn’t. Miley’s results are pretty consistently worse than his FIP, and even then he was a below average starting pitcher in 2014. Again, I recognize that durability has value and Miley has proven himself there, but there it is not at all unreasonable to think that Elias may be the better pitcher in 2016 and beyond.
Miley has average 2.2 RA9-WAR over the last three seasons.
His career ERA- is 99.
His career FIP- is 99.
So…yes. Miley does put up 200 innings of an average ERA/FIP every year. It’s really, really not that hard to look this stuff up.
Also…Elias put up a 107 ERA- last year, with a 1.17 HR/9 in Safeco, while Miley put up a 106.
So, I really have no idea what you’re on about. Elias is qualitatively worse than Miley, and there’s no reason to expect that to change in Miley’s next 3 years of team control.
The motivation of this trade seems pretty obvious on DiPoto’s part. He thinks Carson Smith won’t last and he’s looking to cash out.
I get that the move doesn’t look good on paper but we don’t have the medical angle that the Mariners association does. I’m going to wait and see – if the guy’s elbow implodes than the Mariners got a very reliable innings eater for a crate of damaged goods.
I think both GMs think they’re pulling a fast one and selling high.
Miley had a solid 2.5war year instead of his usual backend 1.5war year, while Smith is an unremarkable arm that had one huge surprise year. interesting challenge trade there.
and then mix in that DD might also think elias is a buy low, given that elias and miley were pretty damn similar pitchers in 2014….while seattle might think this is the last chance to get any value for a guy who may well be on his way out of the league after one decent year.
interesting all around.
“while Smith is an unremarkable arm that had one huge surprise year.”
false, his slider is special, 50% wiff rate. sinker is special, unreal vertical drop and ground ball rate.
Correct, and Carson did not come out of nowhere. He’s one of those “closers-in-waiting” that people have been talking about for years. Those guys often flame out, so there are no guarantees, but the notion that his 2015 performance was a fluke is not at all justified.
If true, I think the Mariners could have gotten more for Smith than Miley, I guess I dont buy the 200 IP of average baseball to keep the Mariners at a .500 club. If the perception is that Smith is an above average reliever, seems like you could do better than an average starter. yeah, I get the 200 IP versus 60 IP, but if it doesnt make you a better team by more than a game for a sub .500 team, why do it that way?
Miley’s track record of consistency and durability is the key from the Mariners POV. It allows them to manage their stable of young arms with regard to IP and injury concerns. Walker and Paxton have huge upside. Miley helps hedge against their possible downside.
Smith’s breakout season and potential to help deepen what’s starting to look like a lock down pen is the key from the Red Sox perspective. Miley was a fungible piece for the Sox with Owens and Kelley waiting in the wings.
This looks like a trade that will help both teams.
I remember when the Red Sox turned me into a potential leadoff ace.
Why is Elias’ reputation so low? People are saying he’s “established himself as a AAA depth guy and nothing more”. The kid is 27 years old! A little early to start labeling him a AAAA player, no?
Podhorzer had a rotographs write up in April about how any 26 year old who can hold his own as league average deserves some attention.
Agreed. Durability has worth and Miley has proven himself there, but Elias the better swinging strike rate, the better contact rate, and the better strike percentage. I wouldn’t trade Elias alone for Miley straight up due to the cost difference, much less add in Carson Smith. This trade is lunacy.
…he’s 27 years old. That’s exactly when you start labeling people as AAAA players.
hi
i think boston made out better, but i’m a little more sanguine about the value of middle-inning and set-up relief pitchers than some people. I’d rather have a decent quality starter, because i think a bottom of the rotation starter who can’t get to the 6th inning is a drain on the overall staff that doesn’t always show up in the box-score. you burn your bullpen, and maybe you ask an extra inning or two from your top-tier starter. over time, that’s wear and tear. Still, for what boston wanted and needed, i thought they did well
I think Mariners could have gotten more for Smith, but compared to their other moves – this is one of their better ones
The fact that Miley’s third year is a $12MM option with a $500k buyout makes it significantly better as a contract than Happ’s 3 year/$36MM deal. The guaranteed part of Miley’s contract is 2 years/$15.25MM, so it’s more accurately a $7.625MM AAV. The AAV is generally going to increase on a shorter deal, so if we’re using Happ’s contract as a proxy for Miley’s value, it’s probably more like $14MM AAV if it were only two years as opposed to three.
Also, there’s the comp pick they get from Iwakuma signing with the Dodgers. Had they opted to match, they’d have given him a 3 year/$45MM contract. By not matching, they’ve gained Miley @ $7.625 MM AAV for the two years they wanted to give Iwakuma plus a comp pick plus Aro at the cost of Smith and Elias. Clearly the two are separate transactions – the Mariners could have kept the comp pick and not traded for Miley – but the fact they’re getting the comp pick (something they hoped they wouldn’t get had they been able to get Iwakuma at only two years) may have factored into their thinking.
It’s also very much selling at the peak of Smith’s value. And he’s likely to have more surplus value to a team like the Red Sox who’s going to use him as something other than a closer. If the Mariners kept him, it’s very likely he’d have been a closer either this year or next, which means that come arbitration time he’d be getting much larger salaries than he’ll likely be getting with Boston (since Kimbrel’s entrenched as the closer there). That value can only be accessed by teams that already have an elite (or close to elite) closer, which limits the market to some extent.
Those things make me say it’s not questionable for the Mariners. Had they been able to sign Iwakuma to a 2 year deal, they’d have kept Smith and used him as a closer and his arbitration salaries would potentially increase very quickly, as happens with closers. With the path they’ve chosen, they get a comp pick, which they’re hoping they can turn into another Carson Smith, along with a starter on the 2 year deal they wanted who, if you squint, is maybe equivalent to Iwakuma in performance (fingers crossed), along with an unexpected ~$8MM extra in the budget to potentially use to improve 1B, plus another arm for the bullpen in Aro. Certainly from the Red Sox perspective it’s great, but that’s in large part because they get Smith without the arbitration cost of a closer, which Seattle didn’t have.
So, that’s the analysis for Seattle. You’re really losing more like $20 million in surplus value with Smith since he would have been a closer here. Boston’s gaining more surplus value since he won’t close for them, but Seattle wasn’t going to get that so they’re not truly losing it. You’re gaining about the same surplus value with Miley. Elias and Aro basically cancel each other out (Elias is more proven and a SP but also has one pre-arb year left versus three for Aro). And, you have the comp pick from losing Iwakuma along with extra payroll space to potentially address 1B this year.
I like it. It’s not sexy, but none of DiPoto’s moves have been. They’re workmanlike. He’s not getting superstars, but he’s filling needs at reasonable costs in a way that’s tailored to his home ballpark. He’s building a team that can contend for the playoffs over the next two years while maintaining maximum payroll flexibility past that two year window.
Just want to point out that this very well could represent selling at the peak of Smith’s value, but we don’t know that for sure. His value would be substantially higher if he continued to perform like he did last year for a couple more years, especially if he were to rack up saves as a full-time closer. (On that latter point, I’m in no way saying he should have more value due to getting saves, but it’s safe to say that he would.)
FenGraphs
As a Mariners fan, I’m troubled by Dipoto trades necessitating smart folks having to work fairly hard to come up with a scenario in which the hometown club didn’t give up more than it received. We saw this with the Brad Miller deal and now this, not to mention a series of other, more meager apparent losses along the way.
Dipoto isn’t clearly getting ripped off in any of these, but I don’t think anyone would say that he has “won” any of them.
Two potential saving graces:
– In both deals in which he gave up quite a bit, the asset he received back was an experienced, yet not ancient, SP who would command a sizeable amount on the open market if a free agent.
– I have some hope that the final product, despite giving up value along the way, may still wind up being a better club than the slowpitch softball team that Jack Z assembled.
I remember when we bolstered Boston’s lineup/deense and made them the AL East favorite. Winter meetings are such an awesome time.
Hey wait a minute! The Red Sox are well in their way to winning their SECOND off season IN A ROW!!!!
Wait!?! You don’t get a ring and a ticker tape parade for that?!? But… But…