Scouting the Cubs Return for Yu Darvish
In roughly 24 hours, the San Diego Padres traded away a total of six players who, were they dropped into the amateur draft tomorrow, would come off the board somewhere in the top 50 picks. It’s the kind of talent few orgs have in their systems at all, never mind in such excess that they can ship it away without totally nuking the farm. Rumors that the Padres were in pursuit of Yu Darvish spread through the industry a few days before Christmas, but it’s taken years of focused rebuilding through the draft, international signings, and trades for pro prospects, and the GM himself sometimes roaming the backfields looking at raw, young players, to build toward a week like the one the Padres and their fans have had. On Monday, the rumors became an in-principle agreement to swap Darvish and C/1B Victor Caratini for several exciting young players most recently scouted on the Peoria, Arizona backfields: Reginald Preciado, Ismael Mena, Yeison Santana, and Owen Caissie. I was lucky enough to see more Padres instructs action than any other club’s, and other than Caissie, I’ve had year-over-year looks at all of them.
You can see where I had all the prospects involved evaluated before my Instructional League looks for some context to the movement I’m about to describe, because two of the traded prospects have moved up quite a bit, and a third might still. Let’s start with Panamanian infielder Reggie Preciado, who is the best prospect in the trade and will be on this offseason’s top 100 prospect list as a 50 FV player. Preciado has the overt physical traits that teams have traditionally coveted in the international market. He’s a big-framed (about 6-foot-4) switch-hitter who is athletic enough to stay on the infield. Players like this have a wide range of potential outcomes, and one is for their body to develop in the Goldilocks Zone where they remain agile enough to stay at shortstop, but become big and strong enough to hit for impact power. Though some teams have shown evidence of a philosophical shift in this area, prospects like Preciado are the ones who typically get paid the most money on the international market, and indeed Preciado received $1.3 million, a record for a player from Panama.
When Preciado came to the States for 2019 instructs, he looked like you’d expect a 16-year-old his size to look: raw and uncoordinated. He still had not gained athletic dominion over his frame, and he looked much more like a third base defender than a shortstop. Fast forward a year (because there was no minor league season) to the Fall of 2020 and Preciado now has a batting stance and swing that look an awful lot like Corey Seager’s. It allows him to be relatively short to the baseball despite his lever length, and whether it had to do with the swing change or not, he looked much more comfortable in the box this Fall than he did last year. Because of the missing minor league season, most teams in Arizona brought an older contingent of player to instructs than they usually would, and still Preciado (who is just 17) was striking the ball with consistency and power from both sides of the plate. I still think he ends up at third, but there’s rare hit/power combination potential here and it just takes confidence in one’s eyes to see it might already have arrived. I now have him rated ahead of Cubs first rounder Ed Howard and, barring any more deals, Preciado is likely to rank third or fourth on the Cubs list this offseason.
Next is Yeison Santana, whose evaluation will remain the same. Santana, who is nearly 20, took a huge leap throughout 2019, when his shoulders broadened and he began rotating more explosively while retaining most of the bat control that made him an interesting, contact-oriented shortstop prospect. Santana is only 5-foot-11, so the risk that he outgrows shortstop is remote, and he became the best infield defender in the Padres system once Gabriel Arias was traded to Cleveland as part of the Mike Clevinger deal before the deadline. He had not taken another step forward physically in a way I felt was noticeable in the Fall. He’ll remain a 45 FV prospect, commensurate with the grades I typically have on players picked toward the back of a draft’s first round.
What is Chicago going to do with all of their shortstops? In addition to acquiring Preciado (who will be 18 for most of 2021) and Santana (20), they also just drafted Howard (19), and 2019 signee Kevin Made (pronounced MAH-day) looked very good in the Fall. Presumably at least two of these players will need to go to full-season ball next year. I think the relatively polished Howard and Santana, by virtue of his age, are the likely two.
On to Ismael Mena, who appeared to have grown a couple of inches since I last saw him in 2019. Mena’s swing is still kind of awkward. He can be very bent at the waist throughout his swing, which is very bottom-hand heavy, sort of like a lefty version of Todd Frazier’s swing. But like Frazier, Mena was getting the bat head on the ball during instructs and hitting it with surprising power. The presence of Robert Hassell, San Diego’s 2020 first rounder, and Hudson Head (a 2019 overslot high schooler) pushed Mena to a corner in my looks at him but there’s less competition for center field reps in the lowest levels of the Cubs farm. He’s a long-striding outfielder who, based on how big he’s gotten in the last year and how clownish his feet are, I expect will one day end up in right field, but Mena runs well enough to continue playing center for now. Mena is currently on the 40+/45 FV line for me and as I continue to source on the Cubs list, he’ll tip into one of the two based on where scouts think he can fit defensively.
Finally, there is Owen Caissie, who I did not run into this Fall. He was the first Canadian picked in the 2020 Draft, the Padres’ second rounder who they signed for $1.2 million. As I mentioned in yesterday’s Blake Snell prospect package write-up, San Diego typically takes a shot on at least one underscouted high schooler in every draft. Caissie is a big-framed Canadian corner outfielder (6-foot-4, 190 pounds) who wasn’t part of the traditional summer circuit the year before his draft, and instead took high-profile at-bats during the Canadian Junior National Team’s annual trip to Spring Training in Florida, during which they play the Blue Jays and minor leaguers in the Tampa area. Caissie looked pretty good during the club’s early-March trip and buoyed his draft stock. His swing is a little long because of his lever length but he is very strong, and hit better against advanced pitching than most long, cold-weather high school hitters should be able to. I’m skeptical of the bat-to-ball future here, which is damning considering Caissie is destined for a corner, but cold weather and bigger-framed hitters deserve extra time to develop, and Caissie is both. He’s a 35+ FV on The Board right now (basically a low probability player with notable physical ability), but could move up a tier as I continue to source on the Cubs list. Again, of everyone in this deal, he’s the one with whom I have the least in-person background.
It’s been quite a while since the Cubs had to “rebuild” via trades for pro prospects, so it will be interesting to see where their proclivities lie as they continue to (I assume) ship off pieces. This first prospect piñata includes very young, mostly up-the-middle players with little statistical track record, which might be more a result of the lack of 2020 season or is perhaps an indication that a Cubs rebuild will be done via eyeball reports rather than on-field performance.
Eric Longenhagen is from Catasauqua, PA and currently lives in Tempe, AZ. He spent four years working for the Phillies Triple-A affiliate, two with Baseball Info Solutions and two contributing to prospect coverage at ESPN.com. Previous work can also be found at Sports On Earth, CrashburnAlley and Prospect Insider.
Thank you Eric, very cool!
Eric, so what’s your assessment of how the Cubs did here?
He obviously likes these guys quite a bit. The question lies more in how much risk the Cubs take on in this return and how much more certainty they could have gotten. In one respect, the Cubs probably maximized the amount of talent they added to their system (in terms of tools and their ability to get to these guys early and mold them) while likely in a position where ownership forced baseball ops’ hand in shedding salary as teams are probably more reluctant than ever to spend. In another, they’re betting pretty heavily on their ability to get children to be good professional baseball players, which isn’t a high probability game.
What implications does this have for the Cubs in the next couple of years? Is that worth the opportunity to develop high-end but very young talent that won’t have direct impact until the middle of the decade, perhaps?
Great passage in the first paragraph to remind us just how much organizational work goes into a week like the Padres just had. Thanks for the early analysis!
This is part of why I think the people freaking out over this supposedly low return are not thinking through this enough. Preciado and Santana have excellent upside. You don’t usually get to trade away a guy owed $60M over the next three years, have the other team assume almost the entire contract, and get guys with this kind of potential. And the other guys are interesting too.
Agree completely. Far too many in Cub nation are sounding off as though Jed Hoyer is a rube who got swindled at the county fair.
I think this does indicated that they’re doing a rebuild and not a retool, though. Their staff was already slim and now is slimmer. If their infield rebounds, they can still compete in the NL central (because the division is so bad, not because the Cubs will be a real contender).
Agreed. I think Cubs fans are going to feel cheated. They thought they were getting a dynasty; few thought they’d have to tear it down this soon.
I still find it odd how the seemingly inevitable Cubs dynasty fizzled out.
At least, it went better than the Astros dynasty.
The inclusion of Davies has me questioning this, along with the fact that the guys on the big league roster at a nadir in trade value at this time. Davies could have simply been a salary off-set who the Cubs think they can flip. But he does have value in 2021 to them if they simply want to compete in a bad division. I can see a scenario where filling holes on this roster with players who diversify the skill sets in the lineup was contingent on moving money. And now, maybe they go after a couple of modest free agents on short-term deals who they otherwise weren’t going to be able to afford? That would still fit in with potentially flipping dudes for prospects if things go awry, too.
Totally agree. They did just win the division fairly handily despite bad performances from three of their best players. Could 2021 Baez, Bryant, Rizzo and Davies produce more WAR than 2020 Baez, Bryant, Rizzo, and Darvish? Sure. It’s possible. And the division is worse. This feels like making the best of an unfortunate payroll mandate by ownership. I can easily see them winning the division by 6 games and getting blown out in the playoffs. I can just as easily see them being far enough away at the deadline to want to trade Bryant, Kimbrel, Contreras, etc. But either way, I don’t think this is a deep rebuild, so much as a one year step back and then right back at it in 2022. Not a lot of payroll commitments and a great free agent class next year.
Yeah, I missed Davies’ inclusion when I commented, but then reports came out that Contreras is being shopped (Carantini is also in the deal). To me, that signals tear-down levels of rebuild, to the point that maybe only Hendricks and Happ are off limits.
I’m of the mind that the only guys they’re not shopping are Ian Happ, Bote, and Hoerner. If you’re, say, the Angels, I bet Hendricks looks pretty good right now.
Cub fans also expected the team to compete through at least 2021–the FO came up with every lame excuse to squeeze the extra year of service time out of Bryant which is this year! and they’re now not going to capitalize on it. The Cubs sat on their hands last winter, Theo left this winter (because he didn’t want to cut salary?), and they just traded their best starting pitcher for a bunch of players who are at least three years away. I completely understand why they’re frustrated.
You usually don’t trade away a top 10 pitcher yes. These guys have upside particularly Reginald but ridiculous risk as well. Odds are very high that none of these guys are impact guys.
The prospects seem similar to the return on Sonny Gray to the Yankees in 2017 and probably similar to what Musgrove will go for. Of course, Davies is returned to the Cubs as the veteran. This seems light for Darvish, whom Craig mentioned has Zips’ 5th-highest WAR forecast for 2021. Preciado is probably better than his FV50 implies since he’s only 18 and has a lot of development coming, thus a slightly-lesser Marco Luciano, so that may mitigate what looks like a low return on the surface.
Overall, it’s clear the Cubs took a hit in the prospect return to get Darvish’s salary off the books. Establishing their own Marquee Network during the pandemic may have cost them more than staying on an RSN. Guess it’s good it coincided with the aging decline of the team. With only 1 year of control left and coming off down-seasons with substitutes on the FA market probably willing to take short-term deals, Baez and Bryant won’t return that much. They probably could have won the division with a Davies-type starter and a couple ok relievers, but I don’t have a problem with them blowing up an 87-win team. Just wish the Darvish return was better.
I love what SDP did on Clevinger (though his TJS puts a damper on things) and Darvish. I like the Snell deal for them less, but it was still a fair trade. And their farm system is still top-half of MLB after all the trades. Along with the Kim signing, SDP fans must be loving it!
Better prospects for a 34 year old starter owed 60 mil? Not in this economy!
This is quite a bit better than what Oakland got for Sonny Gray.
I don’t know, there were people who put FV50s on all three of the guys the A’s got for Sonny Gray. I didn’t buy that at the time, because Mateo had all kinds of statistical red flags, Fowler’s leg had basically fallen off, and Kaprelian had suffered so many injuries he hadn’t pitched in pro ball. But you did not have to go very far to find people who disagreed with me, including Eric.
I like Preciado now better than I liked those three guys then. I’d put Santana a shade higher than those guys then and Mena a shade lower. Caissie is a throw in.
So I would say this is a better return than the Sonny Gray to Yankees trade, but this depends a lot on whether you bought the FV50 label on those guys back then or if you were more skeptical.
I think it’s the older, low-ceiling/high-floor FV50’s (and yes, they were probably more 45+’s) that the Yankees gave for Gray versus the younger, high-ceiling guys the Padres gave for Darvish. I definitely prefer the latter, but I still don’t think the Cubs got enough for Darvish, who again Zips regards as a top-5 starter in 2021.
This explains why my White Sox weren’t a player for Darvish. Dunning is also an FV50 but more of the older, low-ceiling variety. The White Sox can’t scout or develop high schoolers so they don’t draft them and they have almost no presence in the Dominican so their prospects are more the 22+ yo’s low-ceiling types. (Maybe that’s changing with the White Sox going overslot on some HS pitchers in the last 2 drafts.) The Cardinals pick these older types too but their player development is able to turn these into good players.
Since most prospects don’t pan out many team’s management view them as nothing more than trade chips. Yes, some prospects do go on to be stars but I’ll be pleasantly surprised if any of these players end up becoming anything more than place fillers. Count me as one of those who felt the return was light on quality.
IMO, this was nothing more than a salary dump and Hoyer got a few lottery tickets that he hopes will be worth something.
I fully expect Bryant will be traded next and possibly Baez. May not happen till the AS break in hopes of getting more in return. At this rate the Cub’s payroll will be down around the Royals (said with sarcasm).
I’ll be very surprised if the Cubs end up above .500.
He’s 34. All four players would be drafted in the top 50 this year. Cubs did fine.
LOL, How many are returned in the top 50 (why not top 30?) of a draft (was it a good one or bad one?) is irrelevant.
Greinke might be a better proxy and he returned 2 FV50’s in Martin and Bukauskas, an FV45 in Beer, and an FV35 in Rojas. The return here for Darvish falls short of that.
Sorry, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. If that were the case then TB would have got that haul for Snell who is much younger than Darvish.
And who costs half as much…
Much appreciated
Rating Preciado over Howard is a little much, but yeah giant switch hitter with infield defense and a shot to hit plus is the kind of profile that could trump Howard. I have his ceiling in that Zobrist/Ramirez tier of versatile, switch hitting, underrated first division stars. He might skip the underrated part in Chicago, but tha’ts A-OK. Howard’s still that dude in the system tho as the guy who can lock down SS and hit
This is probably the least optimistic about Mena’s CF defense I’ve read, but also he’s 18 and possibly 6’5″ now(?) so that’s understandable. The 6’5″ thing would be pretty awesome, like this mold of giant OFers who can play any of the 3 spots defensively the Cubs are going after starting with Brennen Davis. One of the most underrated aspects of the 2016 Cubs is that they were both bigger and better at defense than foes, feel this guy and Preciado are in that mold
This eval makes me appreciate Santana a little more within the context of the trade. As a surefire SS defender with likely versatility, plus an AZL offensive breakout at the solid age of 18, I underestimated how he’d be perceived. For me, he’s a a better Luis Verdugo within the system due to his superior SS defense and mashing in the AZL at 18 (Verdugo was repeating, Santana wasn’t)
Caissie is more a standard 2010s Cubs prospect in tools anyway. Potential high Iso offense, probably some swing and miss, some defensive tools but likely a corner guy or to move down the spectrum, outstanding size, above average athleticism
Mena is all tools right now; a total unknown.
The thing about Santana is that sometimes people underestimate how valuable an evaluation of “very likely to stick at shortstop” helps someone’s profile. People think that just raises his floor, but it also raises his ceiling. A league average defender at shortstop with a league-average batting line is a 2.5 to 3 win player (see 2019 Amed Rosario). You project plus defense or a wRC+ of 110 and he’s a 3.5 to 4-win player (see 2019 Paul deJong, or 2018 Jean Segura). With both you’ve got a 4.5 to 5 win player. It’s remarkable how good a player can get if they are merely above-average at a difficult-to-play position.
Before anything, appreciate the comment/feedback/discussion etc and thanks for not going into attack mode when that’s an easy route to go given my clearly screw loose approach
I hate this idea that no reps means we no know nothing in 2020(!!) soon 2021 sports. He’s not a total unknown. We know he’s going to be listed at 6’3″ possibly more and 185#. We know grades on his speed and defense at signing were very high. We know he’s only 18, turned on 11/30, and was at Fall instructs for the Padres. We know he signed for $2.2 million, which is similar money to what the Cubs spent on Hoerner (2.7) and Jensen (2) in the first round of the draft….This whole prospects are ultra mysterious and unknown and unknowable thing is largely dead. Hell, I’d even give him points for being in an org that turned Brennen Davis, also super duper mysterious and raw notsolongago, into a consensus top 100 prospect way ahead of a mainstream schedule. I felt comfortable calling Davis the highest upside prep they’d drafted when drafted, more comfortable saying it after his impressive AZL debut, and yeah generally aren’t as caught up as most in *needing* performance data to perceive something about these players. There’s just too much info out there across all sports and *especially* this one to be totally in the dark on prospects if you’re into the whole thing
Agreed 100% on the SS defense comment, find Santana to be a likely MLer even at this stage because of it. People underrate prospect defense in general, people really underrate a prospect creating certainty about their ability to play SS. That’s why I’m *huge* on Ed Howard. Combine his defense with his size, outstanding amateur career, and being the first prep SS off the board on draft day and the ceiling is through the roof
Should note that Dan Kantrovitz pointed out some offensive showcase metrics for Howard too at the time of the draft, but yeah just put everything together on him and he’s a possible whale not really viewed like one (which I’m mostly fine with outside of that largely being the owners using media to artificially deflate/lower expectations to their long term benefit using the cover of dreaded, eviiiiil things like any uncertainty and aging boogity boogity)
I’m wondering if the shape of the return was more decided by the Padres being unwilling to part with anyone else interesting in their high minors after giving up a lot of depth in the Nola and Clevinger trades than the Cubs wanting prospects a long ways from the majors. The Padres have such a strong farm system that they still had a choice after 3 win now trades, but maybe they want to make sure they still have interesting prospects to debut over the next few years to avoid looking like the Cubs.
Looking at what the Padres traded away in 2 days with Eric’s FV and Craig’s trade value:
Luis Patino/60/$60/Rays
Blake Hunt/50/$28/Rays
Cole Wilcox/45/$4/Rays
Reginald Preciado/50/$28/Cubs
Yeison Santana/45/$6/Cubs
Ismael Mena/40+/$4/Cubs
Owen Caissie/40/$2/Cubs (if bumped)
That’s $132M traded away in value and yet they kept Gore, Abrams, and Campusano (likely because of his potential legal battle). Even if Gore is bumped to a 60 (as he wasn’t called up), Gore, Abrams, Campusano, Morejon, and Hassell have $173M in value (holding all other FV constant), they rival the Reds farm system while being a top team in baseball. Preller calling Tatis up opening day, cashing in on his farm while his team is ready to win now, etc is very exciting for the game.
https://twitter.com/BaseballAmerica/status/1344100895831728128?s=20
Getting LH Brennen Davis vibes offensively and he’s coming in the better defender…Giant, L/L OF with CF defensive tools, power on the way, positive outlooks on contact skills and approach, will be 18 all of next season. Seems like alot of potential to go well for Cubs