Stop Throwing Things at Other People
Let’s say you’re in an argument with one of your colleagues. If you work in an office, maybe that comes in the form of a heated disagreement during a meeting. Maybe you work construction and you’re unhappy with the way the foreman is running things at your site. Maybe you just think the head chef at your restaurant is an ass. Regardless of what the circumstances are, your workplace disagreements — whatever form they take — likely don’t include flinging projectiles at each other at speeds in excess of 90 mph.
Baseball is far from a typical workplace, of course. For most people, work generally doesn’t require one to compete against another “team” for the amusement of the masses. Most job descriptions don’t mandate that the applicant possess elite athleticism, expertise with balls of cork and twine, or extensive experience with wooden clubs. There are rarely endorsement deals for a particularly capable account manager. Statistically speaking, you’re unlikely to be making in excess of a million dollars. Professional sports are a strange realm, and baseball may be the strangest of them all.
The politics of the beanball are as intricate as they are confusing. To hear some people discuss it, there’s a right way and a wrong way to heave a projectile at another human being. There’s a time and place for that sort of behavior. You’ve got to protect your guys.
Yet, in a vacuum, this all makes very little sense. When Matt Barnes threw a fastball at Manny Machado’s head, he got a four-game suspension. If Barnes had done the same thing anywhere but on a baseball field, the justice system would have likely gotten involved. Construction workers can’t hurl wrenches at each other without facing some form of repercussion.
Ever since Machado slid too hard into Dustin Pedroia, though — an act that players on both sides acknowledge was unintentional — the Orioles and Red Sox have been throwing at each other. As you may have seen last night, Manny’s had about enough of it. He launched into a profanity-filled tirade against the Red Sox after yesterday’s game, in the first inning of which Chris Sale threw behind him. It’s worth a listen. (Although, if you’re at work, I advise using headphones.)
Sale’s decision to throw at Machado came after Dylan Bundy hit Mookie Betts on Monday night, and was therefore likely retaliation for that. The Red Sox (or at least Sale) felt that Betts being hit was actually in retaliation for Machado being thrown at in Baltimore, and so on and so forth. It’s like a Taylor Swift song come to life. There’s nothing but bad blood here.
Had Barnes actually connected with Machado’s head, the latter could have been grievously injured, or worse. It’s not clear whether Barnes was actually trying to hit him, or if he was just buzzing his tower. Let’s hope it was the latter. Machado made the point that, if he were to hit an opposing pitcher with his bat, he’d be looking at a very long suspension. Barnes got four games. Remember what happened when Giancarlo Stanton got hit in the face? It was ugly.
Sale threw behind Machado’s legs. He wasn’t trying to injure him seriously — and Bundy wasn’t trying to seriously injure Betts. It’s not even clear whether Bundy did it on purpose, seeing that he did it on the fourth pitch of the relevant plate appearance, that he’d already run a fastball inside earlier in the PA, and that it brought the tying run to the plate in the sixth inning. If it was on purpose, he hid it well, and he did it at a very inopportune moment.
I’m not trying to blame the Red Sox for all of this. Bundy certainly didn’t help matters. The first fastball with which he missed very nearly hit Betts, and that could have been what he was trying to do. It was Sale, if not others on the team, as well, who decided to continue to drag this out.
What’s the point of all of this? What is gained from throwing 95 mph fastballs at other people? I’m trying to apply reason to a very unreasonable set of actions, of course, and that’s only asking for trouble. The public at large seems to regard this as a boys-will-be-boys kind of thing. These players are paid to function as masculine paragons, and if tempers flair, that’s just good entertainment.
We’ve seen plenty of inter-team feuds like this in recent years, and they’re nothing new. The Royals and the White Sox. The Blue Jays and Rangers. The Red Sox and Rays. The Pirates and Reds. There are spats that happen. This one seems particularly bad, and Machado’s comments after the game didn’t exactly create any goodwill. Is Machado going to get thrown at again tonight? Is a Boston player going to get hit? Possibly, possibly not. Maybe the managers will tell the players to put it to bed. Maybe the whole season is just going to be one long chippy affair between these division rivals that culminates in a benches-clearing brawl that’s feeling more and more inevitable.
If you got into a cubicle-clearing brawl at your office, or into a scuffle with a rival company at a conference, there would probably be some assault charges filed. When there are brawls on a baseball field, some suspensions get handed down and it’s the lead story on SportsCenter. How many times did you see the slow-motion video of Rougned Odor ringing Jose Bautista’s bell last year?
We excuse this sort of thing because it’s What Men Do. It’s How The Game Is Played. We shouldn’t. Throwing at people is a ridiculous exercise in proving one’s masculinity. It’s silly even if it’s just a quiet exchange of fastballs into the hip, and it’s far more stupid when it involves throws at the head and it drags on and on like this. Machado clearly thinks it’s stupid. He doesn’t understand why they’re throwing fastballs at each other. I’m at a loss for a rational explanation, as well.
This is childish. It’s a contest to prove who has the bigger set of cajones. Goodness knows what’ll happen tonight if there’s another incident. Hopefully the retaliation will be what Machado did to Sale in his third plate appearance, when he sent a pitch over the Green Monster.
It’s easy to say that boys will be boys. These players are adults. Perhaps they should start acting like it.
Nick is a columnist at FanGraphs, and has written previously for Baseball Prospectus and Beyond the Box Score. Yes, he hates your favorite team, just like Joe Buck. You can follow him on Twitter at @StelliniTweets, and can contact him at stellinin1 at gmail.
Sale continues to act like a spoiled brat. Protesting over Adam LaRoche’s boy being kicked out of the clubhouse and cutting jerseys up b/c he didn’t like their style. But hey, maybe it’s ok since he’s on a team friendly deal.
Sale let’s his emotions get the best of him sometimes, but to call him a spoiled brat because of this? Weird choice of words. His attitude wavering from time to time is probably OK because he’s one of the two best pitchers on the planet… so I’m sure teams are willing to tolerate the occasional outburst which is tied to being competitive and a loyal (however stupid) teammate.
Agreed. But I bet you get all kinds of comments on how you are making ‘merica soft with this kind of talk.
Nah, most of the comments will be parroting the author. We only read stuff we agree with.
Some of this has to be handled by the umpires as well. Instead of coming out and giving dramatic warnings to everyone, toss Sale immediately. There’s no question what he was trying to do there, and he doesn’t deserve to get a warning for it. Toss him, toss the manager, and maybe next time they won’t think “I know I’ve got one freebie”.
Absolutely.Well said.
Yeah, I’m a Redsox fan but the Sox are getting off way too easy here. Four days for a relief pitcher for throwing at a man’s head? Warnings for throwing behind someone, almost certainly in an attempt to hit him?
If you think someone deliberately threw at a man, throw him out of the game. No warnings.
If MLB agrees, then suspend him for long enough that it hurts.
The warning is pointless, it’s nothing more than the Umps telling the benches, “Hey, guys, I think someone deliberately threw at someone; but rather than enforce the rules of the game (AKA doing my actual job), I think I’ll WARN you that NEXT TIME, I’ll enforce the rule that deliberately throwing at someone gets the pitcher and manager tossed.”
To which one presumes the players are supposed to respond, “Gosh, when Dad gets home I’m in real trouble now.”
Real long time Red Sox fan here and I would have had no problem with Sale getting the heave-ho right there, and to do it one batter after the 99.999% of Red Sox fans who are the best in baseball showed their class by giving Adam Jones a rousing ovation only compounded the fiasco. It was not a good night to be a Red Sox fan.
It reminds me of the time Syndergaard got tossed after throwing behind Utley in the third inning. I’m sure Mets fans were pissed but I thought it was a great move by the umpire to stop things where they were.
Or why not eject Britton in this manner when he hit Betts? Or let Sale slide and eject the next Oriole that hits a Red Sox?
I would agree with harsh enforcement if MLB had a clear policy of immediately tossing pitchers in those scenarios. Otherwise, it’s arbitrary and capricious application of the rules, and that’s worse. Moreover, umpires are not employed to “send messages,” they’re employed to enforce the rule book.
“If Barnes had done the same thing anywhere but on a baseball field, the justice system would have likely gotten involved.”
Yes. There is no reason why baseball should be treated differently. These are actions intended to bring about a violent touching. That is assault and it should be treated as assault.
The next time the visiting team retaliates in this feud the local prosecutor should file charges against the offending player. Better yet, the prosecutor should issue a statement reminding both teams intentionally throwing something at a person with the intent to cause injury is assault, and that the law does not contain an exception for baseball or players who play the game the right way.
Except it’s unprovable, so filing the charges would be a waste of time.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see them fix this but as long as they’ve got the “it slipped” defense I don’t think the courts will accomplish much.
It would be up to a jury to evaluate the credibility of a pitcher who testified that the location was unintentional.
Or up to the player testifying under oath to decide whether he would be truthful about his intentions in that setting. One of the benefits of a court setting is that it creates structures that make it more likely a player would give an honest answer rather than the wink wink kabuki theater we get when players talk to the media after a game.
Yup. It’s the perjury that gets you in the end.
I’d love to see a 25-man baseball team, coaches, etc get called up to testify under oath about that. You’re right that it would probably win in court, but it would make the “unwritten rules” argument for this nonsense harder going forward.
I’m not endorsing the idea necessarily, but just to echo Sabometrics, juries in this country decide whether someone acted with the required intent every single day. Circumstantial evidence =/= unprovable.
I’d perfectly happy with this current system of “hit 900 ft homer, pimp it for an hour, get thrown at, hit 900 ft homer, pimp it for an hour, get thrown at, call it bullshit” I will sign up for 5 more months of this
I absolutely hate this garbage; they’re acting like a bunch of children and you know it’s going to continue tonight. Wouldn’t be surprised to see the pitchers get ejected early
I actually don’t mind plunking guys, as a matter of principle.
But you get one chance to do it, ad you aim right between the numbers.
Headhunting, kneehunting, or throwing more than once is bullshit.
America: We’re cool with violence, but get it right the first time.
…and make sure not to actually hurt them.
It’s the difference between a LB tackling a RB charging right at him, and a safety headhunting a WR while he’s looking for the ball.
Except that tackling is actually part of playing football, albeit within the bounds of what sort of tackles are legal. Whereas beaning opposing batters is just macho bullshit.
And is explicitly forbidden by the rules of baseball.
I am extremely ashamed to be a Red Sox fan right now.
That makes at least two of us.
There’s a saying that goes “People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” Okay. How about “Nobody should throw stones.” That’s crappy behavior. My policy is: “No stone throwing regardless of housing situation.”
— Demetri Martin
What’s wrong with throwing stones?
Skipping rocks on the lake is crappy behavior? I was in the desert the other day throwing stones at a big rock. That didn’t feel crappy.
Reminds me of a stupid story.
I was waiting for the bus at an end stop a few years ago. It was a long wait – 10/15 minutes. I was amusing myself by tossing (not even a full throwing motion, mostly just wrist) pebbles at a larger rock in the distance. The bus driver came back and walked some hundred feet behind the rock I was throwing pebbles at.
I went to get on the bus, I put in my dollar, and the driver says, “No that you’ve paid, I can kick you off the bus for throwing rocks at me”. It was ridiculous, none of the pebbles I threw were within 50 feet of him. I have a pretty short fuse for idiocy so the argument got more heated than I’m proud of.
Ended up calling my friends for a ride.
Cool
It’s worse than childish because, unless you’re the worst parent in the world, you’re likely to be extremely upset with your children if their answer to a problem is to hurl a projectile as hard as possible at someone else.
Unfortunately there are a lot of bad parents these days.
Sale throwing behind Machado he should have been immediately kicked out of the game. Given the recent history, it very clearly was intentional, and the ump should just toss him instead of just giving a warning.
thot this was going to be an article about adam jones, but still, yes.
I completely agree with Nicholas here and think someone is going to get killed if MLB doesn’t rein this in. Start these suspensions high and if the whole team gets in on the act then start suspending the manager. Something popped up on my news feed (I’ll paste the link here) that notes that the Red Sox have thrown at Machado six times in the last week. Seriously? Reporters need to badger Farrell about this until he gives a Shermanesque statement that his team will no longer throw fastballs directly at the batter’s box.
http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/5/3/15530492/manny-machado-chris-sale-thrown-at-hit-by-pitch
Nobody is going to get killed. If you’re worried about player safety there are a lot bigger things to worry about than unwritten rules.
A man has already died from getting beaned. Yes, it was in the pre-helmet era, but it’s not so hard to imagine a fastball hitting a player in the eye or nose and sending fragments of the zygomatic bone into the brain (which is pretty fatal). Or hitting someone in the neck and breaking vertebrae. Or breaking a person’s rib and having it pierce their lung. The amounts of force we’re dealing with can totally be fatal if bad luck or bad positioning is involved. Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yes.
Warning contains death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpmRK97Hl1s
^ Phillip Hughes being killed during a cricket match in 2014 by a ball sneaking past his helmet and causing “vertebral artery dissection which led to subarachnoid haemorrhage”.
Was talking to a buddy about this last night. What if the MLBPA disciplined Barnes/Sale/anyone they thought intentionally threw at another player? Is that even a thing that could happen? Wouldn’t that send a more powerful message than whatever useless discipline the Commissioner’s Office hands down?
thanks for the hearty laugh sleepy – the idea that the union thugs would punish one of their own is absolutely hilarious
“I’m not trying to blame the Red Sox for all of this.”
Okay, then I will. This is indisputably the Red Sox’s fault.
This just doesn’t make any sense to me. The actual outcomes of the 4 instances resulted in high spikes into Pedroia’s knee, a pitch drilling Mookie, and two Red Sox pitches (both in response) that hit nothing but air. I am totally on board with not throwing at heads, but the Orioles both started it, and had an option to end it.
“high spikes into Pedroia’s knee” that everyone agrees wasn’t intentional. Mookie getting drilled doesn’t make sense that it was intentional. That leaves 2 intentional act out of 4.
Defintely intentional. Manny pretending to be concerned afterward doesn’t mean much to me after he pretended throwing his bat at Josh Donaldson was an accident.
I guess we just disagree about intentionality. All 4 seem intentional to me. Machado’s spikes were *way* up and over the bag. And just a coincidence the sox best player is the one who gets drilled? I don’t buy it. To me all 4 were intentional, only 2 of which resulted in actual results, the two Orioles plays.
There’s plenty of blame to go around, I just don’t buy that this is 100% on the Sox.
There seems to be a major disconnect on this one. ALL the players recognized that the spiking itself was not intentional. Fans look at it and think his cleats were high so it was purposeful, but none of the players complained about it, likely because they all recognize that it was just a natural bounce that happens all the time. Seriously, go look at the various quotes from Farrell and Red Sox players after the incident. They’re not complaining about the spikes.
What the Red Sox were upset about is they thought the slide was LATE. None of the fans have paid any mind to that, because it’s also silly. If Machado hadn’t immediately gone to help Pedroia, he would have finished that slide with his hand on the base. That’s not a late slide, it’s just a hard slide intending to break up the double play, which everyone does. Compare it to the Utley slide that sparked the new rule, and it’s apples and oranges. It sucks Pedroia got hurt, but there was nothing wrong with the slide.
This is the internet, man. You can’t ask people to go beyond their personal opinion and incorporate information into the discussion.
Internet 101
I don’t think it was intentional by Machado. But it was reckless, and that reckless slide did in fact cause damage. I don’t think Barnes was intentionally trying to hurt Machado. “Just” back him off the plate, or hit him lower. But either way you cut it, Barnes pitch was reckless as well and could have done very serious damage.
Personally I’d like to see a no-tolerance policy where any hit batsman (unless the batter is clearly trying to be hit), or any reckless slide or other activity, results in immediately being thrown out of the game. Intention can always be denied. Punish reckless actions, whether or not they cause damage and whether there was intention or none at all. Machado, Barnes, Sale, Bundy, Donnie Hart and Rodriguez all did acts that I think qualify for being thrown out of the game. A few people would be unfairly thrown out when pitches get away. But so what? The trade off is avoiding the debacle that we are going through right now.
Using Machado of all people as a device to describe what is stupid is ironic indeed.
Also, these situations would happen less often if the pitchers instigating most of the feuds had to step into the batter’s box later an inning or two later. I doubt Sale would have acted like such an arrogant ass if he had to think about getting buzzed himself.
Right. Because hardly anyone got beaned before 1973.
Good lord, this article and the comments are the very definition of a hot take. These incidents are all due to the behavior of Manny Machado and the Baltimore Orioles. They spiked a Red Sox player, carelessly if not maliciously, resulting in an injury for several games. The sox then inartfully threw at Machado in retaliation. Fines and suspensions handed down, incident over.
Then Monday night the O’s decide that the incident isn’t over and they plunk Mookie. Clearly intentionally if only because how well it was done, right in the thigh. Did Mookie posture or complain? Nope. He took his base. Did he or anyone else go on a post game profanity laced tirade impuning player, franchise and city alike? Nope. Not that I heard.
But guess who did take notice? Chris Sale did. They spiked our player, we threw at theirs. Fines and suspensions, incident over. Right? Not for the O’s. In addition to injuring Chris Sale’s new all-star second baseman, they’re now going to throw at Chris Sale’s new MVP candidate right fielder. Well, apparently that’s not gonna happen on Chris Sale’s watch.
So Chris Sale whistled a screamer just behind Machado’s precious knees and with it he announced “I am Chris Sale! I hurl thunderbolts! With them I smite mountains! With them I slay dragons! FEAR ME!”
Make no mistake, that was fear that came babbling out Machado’s mouth post game. Pure abject fear.
What
This comment is a pretty good illustration of what it looks like when the impulses from the primitive portions of our brain overcome our ability to think rationally and to empathize.
“Good lord, this article and the comments are the very definition of a hot take. The very definition of a weak hot take. Now I’m going to show you what a real, manly hot take looks like…”
Max Kellerman, is that you? Go back to analyzing boxing…
Lol. Machado was so damn scared of Chris Sale’s thunderbolts that he stepped into the box and hit a ball that literally left the stadium. Shaking in his boots.
You did see manny become unhinged in his post game comments correct? Babbling incoherent nonsense. Threatening violent retaliation despite the fact he hasn’t been touched by ball or spike yet. Spiking players and beaning players must be the sole province of the blameless Baltimore Orioles. Pedey and Mookie et al just better suck it up.
Such a perfect example of Poe’s law.
And as such, I have no idea whether I should upvote or downvote.
Serbanian to Vietnamese to French should say something.
No matter what happens, it was worth it.
Did any one else see Sale breathing fire in the dugout after the bottom of the first? Did anyone else see how Mookie handled his beaning and near beanings over the past couple of games? I’ll tell you what Mookie didn’t do after he got beaned. He didn’t yell obscenities into the opposing dugout. He didn’t slide into second with his spikes a foot off the ground and a foot and a half past the bag. He didn’t launch into a profanity laced incoherent tirade and threaten to use his bat as a weapon. Mookie put his head down and took his base. Didn’t say a peep. Despite the fact that this has now been going on for more than a season. What did Mookie do the next night? He hit three rockets, while dodging more “purpose pitches”, including a victory clinching double late in the game.
With a young leader like that and Sale as his guardian angel, this team could go far.
This is Bosoxforlife writing and I place virtually all of the blame on the Red Sox. Yes, Machado spiked Pedroia but anyone with two eyes could see immediately that Machado realized he had made a mistake, a bad slide, a simple physical mistake not dissimilar to a zillion other mistakes that take place on every diamond, a bad throw, a booted grounder, a muffed pop fly. He made a bad slide, but this was not Chase Utley attacking Ruben Tejada, and his reaction is clear when, instantly, he tries to assist Pedroia. Farrell, in a calculated retaliation for something that even Pedroia did not see as anything serious, went ballistic. He does not have the soft-tossing Wright throw at Machado but waits for hard-throwing Barnes before giving the signal. As if the Red Sox reaction was not already bad enough, it is here that I think things went totally awry. Barnes has been very wild high all spring and I am of the opinion that he was not head hunting but simply unable to control his fast ball which was hopefully targeted for Machado’s wallet. Call me naive but I have watched enough of Barnes’s heaters force Leon and Vasquez to leap out of their crouches to think that this is a strong possibility. The tit-for-tat that has followed has been absurd, stupid and every other word that is appropriate as both sides have tried to show that they are the “tough” guys. I know I don’t appreciate this $%#*&#, I get enough of this “disrespecting” behavior on the evening news. How about playing baseball!
You know your name appears directly above your posts, right?
another reason NL ball is superior to AL ball where pitchers have no fear of going up to the plate after throwing a ball at the opposing star player.
So much assumption to unpack in the article and comments! You all claim to know intent behind each of these players and plays, but you couldn’t possibly. When you make those assumptions then propose new rules and/or litigation based on those assumptions, we find ourselves in a guilty-until-proven-innocent situation. What happens to the pitcher who accidentally lets go of the fastball too soon, or misses an inside pitch by a few too many inches? If someone got hit earlier in the game you would say “there’s no question” he’s going for revenge, or you “know” what he intended, and you would propose they go to jail? This is just plain narcissism.
Not to mention pressure you put on other pitchers who may not have quite the pinpoint control. “Welcome to the majors, try to throw this ball 90 mph into a 2’x 2′ box consistently without letting that trained professional hit it, and don’t miss your target by 6 inches or you’ll go to jail.”
I am not presuming anything and of course everyone is (criminally) innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, just like they taught us at the Dick Wolf School of Law.
If, as no one seems to be disputing, there is reason to believe that the balls and pitches that were part of this exchange were a deliberate attempt to hit the batters, then the pitchers should be charged with assault and it should be up to a jury to determine whether they had the type of intent that would make such an action criminal.
We might even get Jeff Sullivan or Eno Sarris as expert witnesses, who wouldn’t love that?
and since there’s no way to prove beyond doubt that a pitcher throwing a pitch threw it or didn’t throw it exactly where intended, what would this accomplish?
I believe the question would be whether he threw with the intent to hit the batter, not whether the intended to throw it exactly where it ended up.
I don’t agree at all that there is no way to prove such a case. The fact that there was an on-going bean ball exchange is strong circumstantial evidence that this was intentional and the fact that it was Machado himself, perceived as having prompted the feud, who was hit. You would present the jury with evidence of the pitcher’s history and repertoire to show that there was no “baseball reason” to throw a pitch in that area. Then you would have to present evidence of the pitcher’s control in an attempt to show that it was exceedingly unlikely that the pitcher missed his spot by that much.
So you build a case on circumstantial evidence, and you claim it’s not possible they made a mistake, based on their PitchFx history? Heatmaps? You still have a fundamental problem of proving intent, otherwise the defense can roll out hours and hours of video of the best pitchers in history missing their spots.
“Not possible” is not the legal standard that the prosecution would have to meet and that the jury would have to find. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is the standard.
I made this point above, but there’s an incorrect presumption here that the pitcher wouldn’t admit under oath that he intended to hit the batter. He might or might not, but one way of proving guilt is getting testimony under oath.
I am incredibly disappointed that there was no fangraphs article about Manny’s slide or his continued pattern of dangerously immature behavior on the field. I continue to be amazed at how many Manny apologists there are out there, I can only assume you all have him on your fantasy teams or something.
He made zero attempt to avoid putting his cleat into the back of Dustin’s knee, say whatever else you want about the play or the rule or the reaction, but there was no reason he couldn’t move his damn foot.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a-brief-history-of-the-growing-feud-between-manny-machado-and-the-red-sox/
You seem to be equating a denunciation of the bean ball with a defense of Machado’s previous actions. No one is saying that and it isn’t sensible or fair to make such an assumption.
Sorry Sabo, some history here. Remember when Yordano plunked Manny and he charged the mound last year? Numerous defenders of Manny’s actions on fangraphs, and when I asked “What about the maturity issues?” I was accused of spinning some fairy tales in my dream world, as though Manny never threw his bat at Donaldson, etc.
To your point though, I am not making that equation. This is a comment on Manny’s previous actions that very carefully does not attempt to voice an opinion on beanballs. I voiced that opinion below in a separate comment, which you had replied to before replying to this.
You realize that Manny never threw a bat at Donaldson, right? Donaldson wasn’t in the game. So, you are spinning fairy tales in your dream world.
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/manny-machado-throws-bat-video-knee-fernando-abad-athletics-orioles-bench-clearing-brawl/zexydnu7zp9y1i7y8lrgibzc3#
Ok. I’m an Orioles fan. I remember Manny throwing a bat.
All I said was that it wasn’t at Donaldson. Donaldson wasn’t in the game at the time.
Where exactly in your article does it say that the bat was thrown at Donaldson, as you claim? Not sure why you posted that otherwise. Did you even read it or watch the video?
But Machado was never beaned. Mookie was. Where was this outrage Monday night?
Preach.
If someone’s crowding the plate, you throw at them. If they showboat a homerun in their previous AB, you throw at them. If someone talks shit on your teammates, you throw at them. Some people don’t like it but it’s been part of baseball for so long that it’s cemented into the game.
So should it even be punished?
IMO, it depends on how it’s done. Barnes throwing anywhere close to Machado’s head? Immediate toss (whether there was a warning or not), and a suspension – 4 games I’d say was WAY too low. 40 would be more like it.
Bundy’s plunking of Mookie Betts? I wouldn’t punish that – it stings, but I view that as “within the bounds of what players/teams can do, to self-police each other without a high risk of injury”.
Ditto Sale throwing behind the batter, at-or-below the waist.
Before we-as-fans go off the wall and start trying to have players arrested for a HBP…don’t you think we should be asking the players why it keeps happening, and see if the players really want it removed from the game?
If other teams think Machado is disrespectful of them and their health – by his sliding past the base and accidentally spiking the infielder, etc – what actions (as a fan) are you willing to concede to those playing the game, to handle it their way? You won’t let them hit the batter in a way unlikely to produce lasting effect, and you won’t even let them throw behind the batter and make no contact at all.
Well, if it’s cemented in the game, it’s still disgusting. As Nicolas artfully discussed, this behavior isn’t acceptable anywhere else, why in baseball?
Also, we are just lucky no one has died.
No blacks in baseball. No Asians in baseball. Hispanics. . . maybe but they better be really light skinned. (Major League Baseball, 1876-1947).
Sure, some people didn’t like but it had been a part of baseball for so long that it was cemented into the game.
I am not accusing you of racism in any way, I just wish people would think more and think better.
IF the catcher is blocking the plate, you lower your shoulder and take him out. It’s cemented into the game.
Except that’s NOT part of the game anymore, because the league saw an issue and took steps to make a change. Change can happen, those in charge just have to care enough to own it.
Obviously I’ll be very down voted for this but have you actually ever played a competitive game of baseball? This is the way things are done, a guy on your team feels wronged and he tells you to beam the guy who did it. What are you going to do, not back up your teammate. By the way when a pitcher throws at someones head, thats their way of sending a message without hitting them, if you want to hit someone you do what sale did and throw at the waist because guy react a lot slower.
If my kid ever becomes a pitcher and pulls this kind of stunt in a competitive baseball game, there will be some very long lasting punishments.
Also, my former coaches actively discouraged this type of behavior.
What are you gonna do, follow the actual rules of the game?
What are you gonna do, not inflict violence without a legitimate purpose?
What are you gonna do, play a game not a dominance ritual?
By the way, if a person throws a hard object over 90 MPH at someone’s head on purpose that is entering attempted murder territory.
To suggest that professional competitive sports are just a game and not a “dominance ritual” is to miss the forest for the trees.
“Obviously I’ll be very down voted for this”
Yes. Because everything you said was stupid.
As someone who was a pitcher for his entire high school and college baseball career, the initial comment is stupid. If you want to back up a teammate, you shut your opponents down within the bounds of the game. You hit off the pitcher. You strike out the batter. You rob a hit. You force a double play. If you can’t do it yourself, you pitch in so a teammate can. Throwing at people is reckless, immature, and only makes it more likely that your opponents come after your teammates. That doesn’t support your teammates in the slightest.
Why stop at beaning? Why not ambush the guy in the carpark with bats in hand?
I think umpiring crew should warn them ahead of tonight’s game. If it still happens, they should be tossed immediately and suspended for good number of games.
It is painfully clear the suspensions need to be longer. Often times, the guys absolutely must know they are going to get suspended, but they go out and throw at guys anyway. You need to raise the suspension so that only a psychopath won’t take a step back and say “this isn’t worth it.”
Apparently both teams were called by MLB officials and told to stop it. Then Gausman hit Bogaerts with a breaking ball in the second of tonight’s game and was immediately tossed. The RedSox announcers thought it was clearly an accident and that Gausman’s expulsion was unreasonable. I assume Baltimore felt the same way. So apparently MLB has decided that they’re willing to risk overreacting to stop the nonsense.
I’ve long wondered why baseball players can’t seem to be civil to one another on the field. Throwing at guys…take-out slides at 2B…going out of one’s way to bowl over the catcher at home plate…the game doesn’t need to be played that way.
“But that’s the way the game is played!!!” Alas, if there’s any part of the game that needs to be changed, it’s in these areas.
So pedroia gets spiked, Betts gets drilled (by Bundys fastest pitch on the night no less) and Benintendi nearly gets hit in the head, yet the redsox are the obvious bad guys?
Barnes throwing at Manny was stupid, and the redsox deserve some blame there for side, but so do the orioles as well
MLB’s suspensions for throwing at a player are a total joke and no kind of disincentive at all.
You want to curb intentional headhunting? Make it 15-20 games.
A description of what would happen to Matt Barnes if he threw something at a co-worker is irrelevant and misleading. One would also find themselves afoul of workplace rules or criminal laws if they checked a co-worker into a file cabinet or tackled a co-worker as they reached for another cup of coffee. There are good reasons criminal and civil law don’t mix with events that occur on a field of play.
By the book, I don’t know that Manny necessarily did anything outside the rules. We all know he slid past he bag and with his cleats up to try and break up a double play attempt (violating paragraphs (3) and (4) of Rule 6.01(j)). (Of course he didn’t mean to hurt him because nobody intends to hurt anyone; they just want to best their opponent. That’s beside the point.) However, the rule explicitly addresses slides made in attempts to break up a double play, and Pedeoia made no motion whatsoever to turn two. Alas, this means MLB essentially says “go ahead and do what you want if it’s not a double play.” Maybe they could modify the rule to apply when the mere existence of a force situation exists, irregardless of whether the fielder attempted to turn two. I think that would be a tweak that might work.
When rules are insufficient or don’t exist, people take the law into their own hands and chaos ensues. Soon we’re all throwing spears (or baseballs) at each other. (To be fair, the slide rule’s shortcomings were just the cause in this instance; beaning batters is a wholly seperate, poorly regulated aspect of the game that won’t change until someone dies or has their career ended by a warning pitch.)
I’m going to amend that post: the rule is clearer than I implied. The fielder doesn’t need to attempt to turn a double play; the runner only needs to attempt to side to break up a double play. I still think the rule should be more specific and apply when a force is in order. In this case, I think the umpires got it wrong. They should have ruled the slide illegal and called the runner out.
Silly baseball players probably still would have thrown at each other.
I get civil law, yes. But what are the good reasons why otherwise criminal behavior should be excused because it occurs in the context of a recognized sporting activity?
Wrong question. What are the circumstances in sports that warrant criminal charges and prosecution? Criminal law includes establishing that the accused intended to cause the resultant harm. For example: What evidence exists that Sale intended to hurt Machado by hitting him?
A reasonable person is aware that throwing a baseball at someone at 90 mph can cause injury.
You’re not getting it. Criminal statute seeks to establish that a person committed an act with pre-meditated intent of harming another in a specific manner. What other evidence would you present, prosecutor, to prove that a criminal act occurred? The usage of the word “intent” is quite different from the usage in criminal law. It’s not remotely criminal in nature.
Nicholas’s comparison between what happens when a pitcher throws at a batter to what would happen to a person for throwing a wrench at a co-worker is critically flawed.
Sure is a lot of groupthinking in here.
Or most of us critically evaluated the opposing viewpoint, determined it to be idiotic, and came to the reasoned conclusion that the Red Sox should calm down and stop throwing baseballs at the opposing players.
Didn’t an Oriole throw at a Red Sox in between, and didn’t an Oriole negligently spike a Red Sox at the beginning of all this? “Most of you” that conveniently excluded those events from the discussion need to redouble your critical efforts.
No one excluded those events. We just looked at them, and like most all neutral observers (and a significant number of partial observers) concluded that the slide was poorly executed but not malicious and that there was likely no intent to hit Betts in that situation. Literally no one is saying that any of the Red Sox’s antics were not intentional.
If you don’t believe that Bundy intentionally drilled Betts, I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you.
You excluded those events in the previous post to which I replied, which is the cherry on top of your faulty premise that the Orioles are innocent bystanders. These teams were clearly throwing at each other with the intent of sending messages, and a discussion regarding remedies for such scenarios isn’t going anywhere with parties who can’t even come to that basic observation.
MLB should consider a zero-tolerance policy regarding beanballs, which sounds a lot easier than it is since the act of pitching inherently requires throwing baseballs in the general vicinity of batters 250-odd times a game.
I think MLB needs to try harder to regulate this out of the game, but the analogy used is ridiculous. I work in an office, but I also play basketball in a JCC 3-on-3 league. For recreational sports, this is a fairly noncompetitive league. Most of the people in that league also work in offices, at least the ones that I know about. While I’ve never been involved in a fight, there have been altercations that got at least a bit physical. I don’t think any of these people would likely get into a similar altercation at work. Playing sports gets adrenaline going and the competitive nature makes it harder to remember that words are better than fists.
You could say this is different because this is not my job. That is true. It is also true that the demands of a professional athlete and the competition is 1000 times more intense. So that cuts both ways.
Professional athletes just happen to work in a job where it is easy to end up in physical fights. I don’t think this excuses the behavior, but I do think that pinning the blame on some sort of societal expectation of “boys will be boys” or “This is what Men Do” is wrong.
I feel like the basketball analogy is erroneous. There is a difference between a sport where there is physical contact between players and a minor scuffle or shoving match, and throwing a dangerous object at people that can cause serious harm. To be similar fists would have to fly in a serious manner, and possibly even resulting in punches to a person while the are prone on the ground, just to get into the area of damage that can be done by a baseball hitting someone in the head.
There is also the intent issue. Basketball court scuffles are normally seen as a way to intentionally hurt someone, but as a means to defend against an incident that is actively occurring. In baseball, the event is over with and concluded with, and the issue is just being restarted after the fact.
While I don’t condone fighting, I understand how it can occur in the heat of the moment. Throwing a baseball at someone is usually calculated, as pitchers wait for the “right time” to do it.
Yeah, my analogy wasn’t perfect. But it was still better than comparing baseball to working in an office.
What warrants a longer suspension: Head Hunting or PEDS?
PEDS
Good question – PEDS in-directly threaten other players careers by cheating. Head hunting can turn someone like Tony Conigliaro the all-star, into TonyC the former player. I’d rate headhunting a little worse, but I’m probably in the minority.
What I fail to understand is how any rational human can watch the slide and assume there was any intent there. Was it a bad slide, very obviously yes. But as a neutral observer, it was nothing more than a player playing hard, and making a decision way to late. Other than this, all this bullcrap is extra on a situation that doesn’t justify it. I don’t care about Machado’s past behaviors, because in this instance it doesn’t matter. This situation is separate and has nothing to do with any past instances. I have seen perfectly reasonable people make insane decisions, and perfectly insane people make reasonable decisions.
Watching the video it is very clear the impact of Machado’s leg with the bag pops him up into the air resulting in the contact with the fielder. There was no intentional contact. It becomes even more clear when he immediately, before his momentum even stops, tries to keep Pedroia upright by immediately grabbing him at the belt line. A player with intent wouldn’t have done that.
Everything that has transpired since then is pure stupidity. I have no problem with a tight buzz inside, without hitting a player intentionally, to say that the action was dumb, but attempting to throw at someone else is just dangerous and wrong, I don’t care what part of the body that is being aimed at.
That doesn’t take into account that throwing at someone to put them on base is counter intuitive to the point of the game, to win. Putting runners on base isn’t exactly the best way to meet that goal, and outside of the very rare strategic instances where an intentional walk may be a good idea, it is a bad way to go about winning.
I’ve been playing adult hockey for a little over 20 years now, after first learning to skate as an adult – so I never played as a kid. For years, I had a problem with “trying too hard” – and in the process, causing open-ice collisions with other players. Guys who have to get up the next morning and work, didn’t appreciate my enthusiasm. There was no intent to hurt anyone, but I was still an ass. A few cases of … “corrective encouragement” from other players, and a good talking to from my favorite ref, finally convinced me that sometimes it’s better just to let the puck or other player go.
Manny Machado has the same problem. He’s been getting corrective encouragement for a few years now, but seems a little hard of hearing. Watch most runners from first these days when there’s a play at 2nd – they either turn out of the baseline completely, or they slide way before the bag and don’t come close to going past it. What Machado did was fine 20 years ago, not now (thankfully)
Head-hunting him for it, totally unacceptable. See above, “worse than PEDS”. Throwing at someone’s hip? Throwing behind them at hip level, to send them a message? I have no problem with either of those. So, the only REAL problem I have was with Barnes throwing near his head. The other hysteria about Rodriguez, Bundy and Sale is just way over the top, IMO – and becomes a self-sustaining “f*ck you – no, f*ck YOU” cycle.
Other than the Barnes incident – I think people’s REACTION has been more of a problem than anything going on on the field.
Intent to do what? Harm Pedroia? No sane person thinks Machado meant to hurt Pedroia. I think he intended to break up a potential DP, i.e., commit a common baseball act.
The answer lies in the rule book. His action was either legal or illegal. Talk of intent to harm is a red herring.
This is all 1 big argument for the abolishment of the DH. Pitchers are much less likely to do this nonsense if they have to bat.
One of the many things that makes it so bad to me is that pitchers have a relatively hard time controlling where their pitches are going a decent amount of the time. It’s not like they can always have pin point accuracy. So if a pitcher is telling himself “i’ll just brush him off the plate or hit him in the legs/midsection” he could easily miss with the pitch high and hit him in the head area. It’s just dangerous and irresponsible anyway you slice it. And the MLB has to hand out actual penalties to pitchers and not like 5 games to a starting pitcher so he basically doesn’t miss any time.
I have in the past suggested that any suspension of a pitcher should have an additional four days (with pay) added to the length of the suspension. The pitcher losses pay for the current suspension length, and the extra four days are because he’ll probably start serving the suspension when he needed about that much time off to rest and recover anyway.
TL:DR – the extremity of HBP is the cause of concern, not the fact there are intentional HBP. Remove the DH and everything settles.
This article is completely misguided, as are the opinions and views of almost every writer on this topic. I agree completely – throwing at someone is, at best, a scum move – but there is a need for it in the game. Until machado gets a 5 game suspension for metal-cleats-aimed-at-shin slides, teams will want and push for their own form of retaliating. Example: a corner outfielder slides in hard, with intent (as almost every slide in hard has). But now, teams can’t retaliate with HBP. What does the victim team do? Sit on their hands and do nothing? Of course they want to defend their players. Pitchers are currently in the AL able to be as violent with HBP as they’d like with no fear for their own selves. Removing the DH would be the best peace-keeper MLB could ask for, as sale would end up having to bat soon.
somebody has already mentioned this aspect of it but just to reiterate matt barnes is not exactly known for locating pitches well. id like to believe that he wouldnt intentionally throw at a hitters head. as a matter of fact i think its pretty reasonable to assume that almost no pitcher would throw intentionally at a guys head.
maybe this belief is naive on my part and either way it certainly doesnt change the overall message of ‘stop throwing things at people’ but i feel like he was very likely just trying to back machado off the plate and not decapitate him.
there are tons of unwritten rules and codes in baseball and one seems to be ‘hit them between the knees and shoulders’. and just ftr im not justifying or condoning barnes behavior in any way. he deserved to be suspended ofc.