The Arizona-Florida Plan Creates a Solvable Scheduling Pickle
Last week, two competing plans for an alternate-site baseball season were leaked. The first was the so-called Arizona Plan: Send all 30 teams to Arizona, rotate games between the available fields, and play an abbreviated major league season with no in-person audience. That plan has its logistical pitfalls, but one of the few things the plan doesn’t alter is the existing divisional structure of baseball. Aside from a shorter season and its attendant complications, baseball would mostly work the way it always has: the Red Sox, Rays, and Yankees would attempt to club each other into submission, the AL Central would be full of rebuilding teams, and so on.
The second plan, the so-called Arizona-Florida plan, would be something else entirely. Instead of recreating the exact structure of the league in one city, this plan would place each team at their spring training facility. Many of the logistical issues from before would still need to be answered. Assuming those can be handled, however, there’s still one major twist: instead of existing divisions, the teams would be grouped by geographic proximity — and, of course, given that the existing setup isn’t 15 AL teams in one location and 15 NL teams in the other, the leagues would be scrambled.
Per Bob Nightengale, the divisions would look like this:
| North | South | East |
|---|---|---|
| Yankees | Red Sox | Nationals |
| Phillies | Twins | Astros |
| Blue Jays | Braves | Mets |
| Tigers | Rays | Cardinals |
| Pirates | Orioles | Marlins |
| Northwest | West | Northeast |
|---|---|---|
| Brewers | Dodgers | Cubs |
| Padres | White Sox | Giants |
| Mariners | Reds | Diamondbacks |
| Rangers | Indians | Rockies |
| Royals | Angels | Athletics |
That’s quite the scramble. Dan Szymborski is running the new divisions through ZiPS to get an idea of what it does to teams’ playoff odds, but I thought I’d consider the mechanics of playing with 15-team leagues, as well as highlight some interesting matchups, to give you some sizzle to go with your steak, as it were.
First things first: how would an odd-numbered league work? Baseball has gone to interleague play in part to avoid this question: in a game where most every team plays most every day, having odd-numbered leagues won’t work. That’s why expansion was always done with two teams joining a single league at once; before the Rockies and Marlins were added, the AL had 14 teams to the NL’s 12. When the Diamondbacks and Devil Rays joined the majors in 1998, the Brewers were shifted to the National League to keep the numbers even — 16 NL teams and 14 AL.
When, in 2013, interleague play became a daily occurrence instead of a specific chunk of calendar, the Astros shifted to the AL, setting up our current 15-team leagues. But of course, the daily interleague play plan won’t work anymore; no one’s flying back and forth across the country in this plan, which is specifically designed to avoid flying back and forth across the country.
What other options do we have? One choice would be to have some non-traditional double headers. A team could play a day game and then a night game against two different opponents, serving as a de facto 16th team for game balance. Of course, that schedule is about as unfair to that team as you would expect — playing two games in a day is usually a mutual disadvantage, and while it’s hard to estimate the exact cost, it’s not likely to be low.
How can that cost be offset? Most likely, it can’t be. An extra pitcher or always playing at home can’t offset the cost of playing twice a day. But if we give each team an equal number of split double headers, the cost can at least be shared among all teams. Nightengale’s article references a 108-game season. You could handle this issue by having 13 days where a team has an off night and 90 days where a team plays a split doubleheader, with each team playing six of them.
That plan is probably too radical. A team playing its second game of the day against a fresh opponent might not be compelling baseball. An alternative, then, would be to give one team an off day every day, but have some of the remaining teams play double headers. Those double headers aren’t strictly necessary, but the season needs to be compressed, and off days don’t exactly jive with fast seasons.
If baseball is sticking with the 108-game schedule, they could finish it in just over 100 days by having every day feature a double header and one team with an off day. That’s aggressively compressed, though: if you have 110 days to use, you could have double headers every two out of three days and still get through the entire schedule even with one team off every single day.
Of course, that’s on paper, and neither Florida nor Arizona come without challenges. In Arizona, the main challenge is heat; every double header would have to be played at Chase Field. That works out okay at first, but on the 30th consecutive day of double headers, the field is going to be pretty beat up, no matter how much work the grounds crew puts in. If baseball has the aforementioned 110 days, that would help; using every third day to refresh the field is a lot better than almost never having off days.
Meanwhile, in Florida, it rains. In the summer, it rains a lot. In Miami, more than half the days in July, August, and September feature some rain, and those three months will figure heavily into any plan. In theory, the domed stadiums in Miami and Tampa could handle some of these otherwise unplayable games, but darnit, rain doesn’t just happen in one city at a time. Stupid weather! If it rains near Tampa, at least five stadiums will be affected. That’s the biggest concentration of spring facilities, but depending on how big of a storm front is involved, every stadium could easily be unusable for a day.
Of course, scheduling makeup games is far more difficult when there’s no such thing as a mutual off day. Makeup games would need to be doubleheaders, which might tax an already difficult schedule for players. That doesn’t even get into hurricane season, which could be a massive wrench in the works; lose four days of the schedule to a hurricane, and the already-compressed season would be in shambles.
One possible solution? Abandon this facade of making baseball almost like a regular season and simply make both leagues even. The Rays train in Port Charlotte, a 90 minute drive from Tampa. They could use Tampa as their home base, and one of the 10 teams that shares a facility in Arizona could take Port Charlotte. Heck, they could even share Port Charlotte if the league would prefer to reserve Tropicana Field for double headers — it’s hot in Florida too, after all. Sharing a spring facility is nothing new; 14 teams share spring facilities. But most likely, Miami’s newer stadium could handle the twin bills and the Rays could have the Trop.
Of course, that makes 16 teams in Florida and 14 in Arizona. But quite honestly, who cares? Baseball used a 16/14 split for nearly 20 years with no real problems. The NL Central had six teams, the AL West had only four, and it’s not as though anyone looks back on the 1998-2012 era as having unfair competition.
That arrangement would require other scheduling quirks; in the 16-team Florida league, teams not in the six-team division would play six games against each team in the other five-team division, and only five against the six remaining teams. In the division with six teams, instead of playing 12 games against each divisional opponent, it would be a mix of 11’s and 12’s (they’d have an extra 10 intra-division games due to only playing non-division opponents five times). The opposite pattern would hold in Arizona; one division would play a longer divisional series (16 games instead of 12) due to its four-team construction.
For my money, that change is much less disruptive than the various double header-centric plans. You can still schedule two teams at a time for off days to make rest work; but as it’s no longer required, you won’t have the everyday off-day plan that was previously necessary. With two teams at a time scheduled for off days, there’s a much higher chance to schedule makeup games when there are rain delays. And with fewer double headers necessary to make the schedule work, teams could more reasonably play double headers as makeup games.
Heck, if the weird difference in divisional games is too much for your sensibilities, just abandon an unbalanced schedule altogether. Each team could play each other team in the Florida (or Arizona) league an equal number of times, give or take a few games at the end to make the two leagues have an equal number of contests. In a 108-game season, that would mean the Florida league consists of 12 seven-game sets and three eight-game sets. The Arizona league would be nine eight-game sets and four nine-game sets.
To be clear, these theoretical scheduling discussions don’t mean that the plan is flawless. The same quarantine issues that make playing in Arizona difficult would apply. Without massively increased access to testing, the plan won’t work. But if that side of the equation can be handled, I prefer this plan to the Arizona-only plan. Scheduling games for the East Coast is a big problem in Arizona, as is the need for nearly every field to be used every day.
This plan does a good job mitigating those problems. It won’t be perfect — there are two teams who play in Arizona whose home cities are in the Eastern Time Zone, and only one could head to Florida even in the 16/14 plan. There would be some unavoidable time zone issues for one of the Indians or Reds.
But short of that, I think it’s far better. The Florida weather is a smaller problem, in my eyes, than the difficulty of playing so many games in the desert heat. Any of several plans could handle the scheduling requirements, and all of those plans would make for better viewing than the Arizona-only plan. Some of the plans would also have their own weirdness; strange double headers or one team constantly resting or unbalanced leagues. But they’d all deliver on the key thing we need: baseball, and live baseball at times when people could watch it. Solve the non-baseball issues, and this Arizona-Florida plan could handle the rest.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
Based in this article from ESPN, sounds like player buy-in will be a huge hurdle. Yes, they want to play. But they don’t want to be separated from their families for 4 months. And they don’t want to put others at risk, particularly some of the older coaches.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29017716/too-much-iron-players-say-mlb-arizona-plan
Not to mention, how are they going to quarantine literally everyone else who comes in contact with them? If they don’t do that then it’s going to spread through clubhouse, and then they’ll just re-cancel things. I just don’t see how this is possible. I really don’t.
We just need to keep remembering that a positive covid test for a 20-30 year ball player is probably one of the following three results
1. No symptoms at all
2. Minor symptoms that are fine in a few days
3. A 3-5 day full blown flu followed by a couple days of regaining strength
Everyone needs to keep in mind that ballplayers aren’t going to be hospitalized or dying as a result of this.
The bigger issue is coaches, managers, clubhouse attendants, etc who are a bit older.
The news has down a terrible job of explaining the risk here. The risk starts with people 50+ and people with pre-existing conditions like autoimmune, HBP, diabetes, cancer and the real risk is for people 70+.
The country is shutdown not because of lethality but because of contagion and risk of overwhelming our hospitals
Planning for baseball simply needs to mitigate these risks. Older coaches, umpires, clubhouse attendants should be sidelined until there is better testing.
There no reason why players can’t see their families for instance using smart social distancing thoughtful processes
People in their 20’s and 30’s have died from COVID-19. It is just a low percentage of those infected or hospitalized. Coaches, trainers, and team support personnel are likely to be older, and have higher risk than the players.
I really hope that we have baseball this year, and this seams like a potentially viable option.
I hope that if we learn anything as a nation from our current situation, it is to be better about recognizing and addressing risk in our decision making. Life is complex and nuanced. We absolutely need to make decisions and to accept risk. We just make better decisions and better manage risk when we can have a fact-based discussion about potential costs and benefits.
Exactly, the risks to this subset of people is quite low and if there are some people who have higher risks, they can opt out. There may be players like Daryl Kile who don’t know they have a pre-existing condition and society has to agree to accept those risks like we do with car accidents and flu etc.
Beyond the deaths, there are also people suffering permanent and semi-permanent damage. People thinking this is black and white are missing a lot of facts.
Man, you’ve been making these very same arguments over on the Cards SB Nation page (VEB), and they’re just as poor arguments here as they are there.
Yes, your view (attached ) is way better
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8214127/Thousands-people-line-miles-outside-emergency-food-banks-US.html
we’ve saved, at the median, 8 trillion dollars from extreme social distancing, and if we don’t continue active suppression we’ll lose 9 trillion dollars. Sure there are costs, but you can’t wave away the benefits (source: actuarial analysis in this paper:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3561244
and this paper
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3562053
Tim Locastro has a pre-existing HBP condition
This is unpopular, but correct. The reason for social distancing is not so no one gets COVID- it is so fewer people get it- and we reduce the number so that our health care system can handle these cases.
That’s part of it. The other part is to reduce it to a point where testing/tracing/quarantining is viable. If you don’t do that, then you’re right back where you were before–locking everything down.
If you get to a point where testing/tracing/quarantining is viable, then sure, these sorts of plans will work. But you don’t have to flatten the curve to do that, you have to break it. And you need an absurd number of tests–like 4 million tests a day. We’re currently at about 100,000 a day. If you see how we’re going to up the amount of testing by 40x its current capacity, I’d love to hear how it’s going to happen. The only party that can coordinate that is the federal government, and they’re not doing it.
And if you don’t have confidence in your tracing, then you need even more tests.
This is not going to work until a lot of things happen that probably won’t happen anytime soon. Life is not going back to normal without an incredible commitment to public health, or until a miracle drug/vaccine shows up, which will probably be a while.
Oh boy. You want to get a bunch of people together (ballplayers, stadium support people, etc) in the same place who aren’t essential workers and let them just go wherever and talk to whoever? This is like the opposite of what anyone should be doing right now.
It would be one thing if it happens in a vacuum, but I imagine they’ll modify things based on seeing how they go in other countries with other leagues. I think the biggest obstacle is that Florida is kind of a mess w/r/t the response to the virus. I don’t have enough information on Arizona to form a response. You’d think that would be one of the primary criteria for where they want to start the season. Frankly, I’m surprised a low impact state isn’t trying to woo the league to them.
I don’t know that there are “low-impact” states.
The places that will probably be up and running sooner will probably be in the Northeast. You could do it at the NYPL stadiums, potentially.
Don’t have enough on AZ because they don’t release it. Governor Duecy is just a big of an idiot as DeSantis
The Arizona plan seems to require a tight quarantine. This AZ/FL doesn’t seem to, as team will be traveling quite a bit.
Florida weather is such that there would be delays but not many actual rainouts, if baseball was willing to play games at non traditional times.
Since there are no audiences, morning games (10AM?) across the board would solve a lot of problems. Broadcasts don’t have to be live; just keep the press quiet or out.
Or, given that many will still likely be working remotely, count on fans shifting around their daily schedule to watch their team even if the game is on at 10 am and then catch up on work later. It would be kind of like watching the first rounds of March Madness or the World Cup. Even when we can’t watch, we’d still have something to discuss later.
Bottom line, having non-traditional start times should definitely be on the table.
The problem with Florida weather during the summer isn’t just the rain, it’s the fact that the rain comes in the form of thunderstorms, meaning there will be a period before and after the rain falls when lightning will be striking nearby, necessitating even longer delays. Those of you who watch college football are familiar with how long lightning delays can last.
Now perhaps with no fans in the stands, they ignore or weaken the rules against playing with lightning nearby, but if they don’t that has to be factored in.
Older coaches should not be involved if this happens.
Or older umpires. We need to keep Joe West, Angel Hernandez, and CB Bucknor safe by replacing them with younger umpires.
Maybe it’s my imagination but the FL rains seems to wash out days of August minor league play at a time. I’m sure there are hidden challenges but there are 8 domed or retractable stadiums five of which have artificial turf. How about the five clubs in each division relocate to one of those cities and play a season of 80 in-division games with an expanded 12 team playoff? If you limit yourself to artificial turf parks you’d have to house a division in an unfamiliar park.
Six divisions complicate the “odd-team” issue and require DH’s each day as well as 2-3 games a day in each park – hail the return of afternoon baseball so you’ve got plenty of time between games. Alternately realigning into three “leagues” of ten teams each would solve the odd-team problem but require 5 games/day in each park which could complicate social distancing between clubs and make it hard to disinfect clubhouses between games.
The best geo stadium selection for a 6 division format would be:
AL East – Rogers Centre/artificial turf
NL East – Marlins Stadium/artificial turf
AL Central – Globe Life Park/artificial turf
NL Central – Miller Park/grass
AL West – SafeCo/T-Mobile Field/grass
NL West – Chase Field/artificial turf
If you didn’t care about basing a division near it’s fanbase you could replace one with Tropicana Field/artificial turf. You also have Minute Maid Park/grass.
Realistically, virtually all of MLB stadiums are fine to play on in May-September. Ironically, it’s the spring training stadiums that are the problem. I think, however, that having games on neutral sites and at one of those stadiums makes sense for the playoffs if it stretches on into November.
That said, I do like this idea because you could basically never worry about rain delays. I was a big fan of the idea too, until I realized that it would be even harder to quarantine everyone who comes in contact with the players, which is the other plan’s Achilles heel. This weakness becomes even harder here.
the real rain issue, and maybe this is what you mean, but in monsoon conditions it’s hard enough to get a decent field for one team to play on a few times a week, let alone a field where there will be zero rest for weeks. Groundskeeping is extremely difficult at the best of times pretty much anywhere. Florida in the summer is not the best of times.
I did a quick count on the Port Charlotte Stone Crabs, July 1, 2019 onward. There were 15 dates either PPD or cancelled due to weather or field conditions.
I’d also like to add that the ball carries very, very poorly in the air in the humid conditions of Florida in the summer. With games in both AZ and FL, it would be strange to see, perhaps, significantly different scoring environments between the two leagues. And that might manifest weirdly for teams that were designed to compete in their home parks and against their standard division opponents, neither of which would figure in.
I offer this points not as an objection, but just added “stuff” to think about.
I never knew how much it cost to keep the field going in college, despite the fact that we were free f’in labor, as is baseball tradition. I also don’t know how much it cost to keep our soccer field in good shape (but a grass/field turf weave which is super fancy).
I know my high school field (not for high school, but a club owned the field), which was a sand base with real grass on top of an irrigation system, was in the neighborhood of $30k a month to keep functional in a much cheaper country than the united states, and you couldn’t even look at that field outside of gamedays. And by the end of the season, despite all the work, it was either a mud puddle or a desert. So, it’s possible that all the imported sod in the world still won’t change field conditions all that much. Does that matter? I mean, yeah, probably. Enough to stop games? It sure does in other sports.
Section 11 of the Uniform Player Contract lets the Commissioner “suspend operation of the contract during any national emergency during which major league baseball is not played.”
Once they start playing major league baseball, aren’t clubs required to pay players? Even if their revenue is reduced? Section 11 does not give the Commissioner the authority to tie a player’s salary to the player agreeing to live in isolation from their family for months.
If players do not agree to the isolation plan, can MLB still suspend their contracts even though major league baseball is being played?
What if a player said he will play, but will not be locked in a hotel in Arizona for 3 months. There is nothing in the UPC that ties salary to living in isolation. Clearly they won’t let that player in the facility. But aren’t they required to pay him anyway?
I ask as a pure legal question. Can MLB refuse to honor contracts just because they did not anticipate this situation.
Maybe force majeure would apply, but that results in litigation, possibly class action. Would the CBA require arbitration? Since this would be a unique issue, would players apply for court oversight, or would they challenge arbitration?
Secondary question – if you isolate entire teams (players, managers, trainers, medical staff, grounds crew, umpires, bus drivers, equipment staff, camera crews, broadcasters, chefs, hotel staff – several thousand people total) to do this, and somebody gets seriously sick (or God forbid dies) during the MLB-orchestrated isolation… is MLB negligent? Do they have a duty of care for the thousands of people they are isolating? Would they all need to sign liability waivers? If so, can MLB make signing a liability waiver for isolation a condition of paying their contract? That seems likely to result in even more litigation.
One thing I know for sure… We need an analysis by Sheryl Ring. That seems like a perfect topic for her to take on.
Your first question is an interesting one. I presume it would be dealt with via a new addendum between MLB and players.
Not to say it isn’t doable, but the bigger issue with adding Florida into the plan is the stadiums are MUCH more spread out. In AZ, all stadiums are less than 1 hour from each other. You could have a central quarantine hub for all players and be within 30 minutes of each stadium. In Florida, some stadiums are up to 4 hours away from each other. Even within your own division, you would be traveling more than you would in AZ. You would have to have at least 3, if not 4 or 5, quarantine zones. In some ways it makes the logistics easier, in other it makes it more difficult.
That’s why they’ll have teams play vs teams close by for the most part of not all their games but I hear you nobody wants to take eight hour bus rides
If they just play teams close by, most of them will be playing the same 4-5 teams over and over again. For the 3 teams in southwest FL, it will get old real quick. Perhaps they could find different venues for a handful of teams and keep everyone within 2 hours or so, but they would probably need to find new homes for 4-5 teams to do so.
You don’t need the stadiums on the east coast to make this work. I think you could figure out how to play just on the west coast of Florida. I’d house a bunch of AAA teams on east coast and let them be the group that gets called up if there is a need.
If you do that the drives between stadia are 0-3 hours max
I know the odd number in each “division” on the Florida-Arizona plan makes scheduling difficult, but why not just give every team a break for 2-3 days? While every team starts with a 2-3 game series to start, one team has a bye series?
Why play series at all? Series are about travel expediency, and if there’s no travel there’s not a lot of reason to play the same team several games in a row. Scheduling one team in each 15-league to have a day off doesn’t have to mean more than ONE day off.
Excellent point
You could do without series in AZ because the stadiums are so close. Not really doable in FL given the travel distances
Correct, a 3-day break every 15 series is far easier than Ben’s plan
I love baseball. I want baseball to come back. But honestly, is “lets just not play baseball this year” really such a bad plan?
But don’t forget… We need to get Nick Markakis to 3,000 hits – just to enjoy the years of debate over his Hall Of Baines induction.
Markakis is 645 hits from 3,000. 5 seasons should get him there. He is 36. If they play most of a season this year he has a chance. Lose 2020, and Markakis will need to play until he is 42 or older.
How many hits was he gonna accumulate this year as a 4th OF?
As their 4th outfielder, not many. But as a LH hitting platoon outfielder, he was gunna get quite a few hits.
With whom is he platooning? Acuna and Ozuna have the corners locked down and Enciarte is the only playable CF on the roster. Maybe Acuna can fake CF in a pinch, if you’re willing to risk a dumb injury, but I strongly doubt you’d see a starting lineup with Acuna in CF vs RHP. If Enciarte doesn’t hit, they’d more likely call up Pache or Waters before throwing a corner OF in the fire.
I think they call up Pache, like you’re saying. Maybe Ozuna is unplayable for some reason, but even then they have other options.
I happen to think it’s a bad plan. It’s just that every other plan to have them play baseball (so far) is worse. So I’m in favor of them continuing to try and come up with plans, even though none of these seem feasible.
This is very much how I feel. I don’t think the plan is great, but I do think it’s better than the last one, and there’s value in the iterating. Perhaps they’ll eventually land on one that works, but even if they don’t, this is what baseball should be doing right now.
I’m normally not a fan of a “throw against the wall to see what sticks” approach, but under these circumstances it seems to be the best chance to salvage a worthwhile 2020 season for MLB.
I suppose it depends on your definition of “worthwhile” but it seems like any even semi viable plan is going to entail a season that doesn’t resemble an actual baseball season whatsoever.
Like I said, I want baseball to come back. But if coming back means a bunch of randomly grouped teams playing a crazy schedule in spring training facilities I’m not sure how worthwhile it will ultimately be (aside from a purely entertainment standpoint). But I understand why they are trying.
(and this of course doesnt touch on the actual health risks of such a plan)
Yes, to me the Florida/arizona split seems best but it should be NL/AL split not cactus/grapefruit
The next plan is the same plan but it happens over the winter because in Arizona and Florida it can.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that the IHME model (https://covid19.healthdata.org/) predicts the virus to be causing problems in Florida and Arizona for up to a month longer than many other states, especially multi-team states like California, New York, and Illinois. FL and AZ are predicted to have their last COVID-19 related hospitalization in late June where CA, IL, and NY should have their last hospitalizations in mid or late May. Closures of non-essential businesses (which FL and AZ still do not have) and stay at home orders are likely to be lifted earlier in some states than others.
This is going to create problems in all walks of life, not just baseball. Will states like California ban travel from states that are still experiencing higher levels of infection? Would people travelling from those states (including teams of athletes, their families, and support staff) be forced into quarantine for two weeks after returning from there?
I understand that FL and AZ have the facilities to play baseball and the governments of those states have shown more willingness to let people do what they want, but you may have to wait longer to start playing there and it may make it more likely that the whole season has to be played there instead of just part of it.
Yeah, they have governors who are more likely to let it happen even if there are substantial risks, which is how they got into this pickle in the first place.
I am not sure if that’s supposed to be drawback or a bonus for this plan.
Interstate travel is already a problem: Puerto Rico has been trying (to no effect) to get the FAA to block flights from NY, NJ, and Florida for weeks. Folks from NY have been loading up on fever meds to fool screening, getting on planes to San Juan, and ending up on ventilators after infecting everybody in sight. (AP did a report over the weekend.)
PR used to have only low double digit cases, all cruise ship related, but now it’s gone communal in SJ. Still modest but still growing…
And PR is an island. No ground travel.SJ
Now try to manage ground travel on the interstates and back roads to keep the pandemic from spreading back and forth.
It’s not hard to see waves of infection rippling across the country until they find a reliable treatment.
Unless entire teams are willing to isolate around the playing fields, no plan will provide a full, if abreviated, season of play. The most likely scenario is about ten days of games before the first new cases start to crop up.
The safest season is no season.
In what alternate universe are we 4-6 weeks away from the “last hospitalization” in New York? (Push it back for other areas, same issue.) In mid to late May, there will still be no approved & available vaccine or treatment, still nowhere close to herd immunity, and people will still be infecting others. Hell, we will be lucky to have a moderate increase in testing by that window, such that symptomatic people can be tested (but not yet the general public). “Last hospitalization” suggests you think this virus will soon disappear on its own? Via what means? Does not compute.
P.S. Because of the lack of testing, the data is garbage, which means the models are outputting garbage. If there is a model calling for zero hospitalizations by this summer, that simply doesn’t pass the laugh test.
Obviously in the IHME’s universe. This is what they do. The probably predict the future better than STEAMER or ZIPS does. Check out the link, they explain their methodology.
They aren’t measuring diagnosed cases, they are measuring hospitalizations, ICU admissions, ventilator usage, and deaths. These are much easier to track.
Hospitalizations can be used as a surrogate endpoint for cases since if nobody is being hospitalized it is reasonable to assume that there are few or no cases in whatever area is being monitored. The lack of widespread testing is less of an issue for all of those since we aren’t talking about community prevalence, but hospital usage. Most patients (maybe all) that are admitted to the hospital, especially with symptoms that fit the pattern, ARE being tested.
I do want to push back a little bit on taking IHME as gospel. It’s better than nothing, but it’s really not a very sophisticated model. It’s automatic curve fitting software–I played around with it one a little a couple of years ago. It is…not very clear about what it’s doing. They’re basically trying to take how the curve has progressed in other countries and fit the same shape to what we’re seeing here. Again, it’s better than nothing. But there are other models out there that are a bit more pessimistic.
The stuff most states are using is the CHIME model, which is much more pessimistic. Unfortunately, there aren’t any fancy visualizations of CHIME.
My issues with the IMHE model are two fold.
One is that they say that their model is based on full social distancing through the end of May. We don’t have full social distancing right now so why base your model in that assumption? Why not base it on actual reality?
Secondly, in their FAQ’s they state:
“Our forecasts of zero deaths in July and August assume that appropriate measures are put in place to guard against the reintroduction of COVID-19 from another state or country. These measures may include mass screening, contact tracing, testing of all individuals entering the country, and quarantine of people who test positive.”
That all sounds great but what are the odda of that happening? Particularly when it involves 50 differemt decisions by 50 different governors. Also, do they honestly believe that will lead to 0 deaths??? That’s basically what South Korea is doing and they still have deaths.
There are like a hundred things wrong with it. For starters, it’s basing it on the number of deaths but we’re missing a huge, huge number of deaths from COVID-19–they’re being classified as other things.
Also, the equation used by the software is forcing the shape to be symmetrical, when what we’ve seen is a sharp rise and a very slow decline.
Also, the amount and degree of social distancing is radically different from place to place. In Wuhan, they were basically kidnapping people who tested positive and keeping them away from everyone else for two weeks. In South Korea, they did the same thing except nicer–they put them up at a hotel for two weeks.
The epidemiologists I’ve been talking to have said that it is incredibly optimistic.
Worse, South Korea has 100 cured people showing up as positive for a secpnd time. They swear it’s not re-infection (bad enough) but if not it would mean initially undetectable traces had kept replicating after recovery.
Not a good development.
That’s all much more reasonable than just discarding IMHE out of hand.
And really my initial point was that the two states proposed for early baseball – Florida and Arizona – are places where the virus is likely to hang on longer, which makes your proposed quarantine that much more difficult. You can change the absolute dates, but that probably remains true.
Almost all of Florida’s cases are in Miami-dade, broward county. If you play in the spring training locations, the Florida epicenter can be avoided for the most part.
Arizona’s number of cases are very small and the data indicates new cases have already plateaued. Phoenix has 2000 cases and 50 deaths. It’s not a hot spot
You are talking about reported cases which is not reliable because of the lack of widespread testing.
Arizona’s diagnosed cases may have plateaued for now, but the number of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and ventilator usage is not predicted to peak for nearly 2 weeks, which suggests that the number of diagnosed cases reported under-represents the actual number of cases in the states. A “small” number of cases can change in a hurry. Especially if you import a thousand people or more from around the country and do not successfully quarantine them.
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/arizona
I want to see an A’s – Astros World Series. They’re one of the few teams the A’s haven’t lost to in the playoffs
I like the idea but I’d go with go with no divisions while still playing teams closest in proximity and just have the top seven (Baseball wants expanded playoffs), teams record wise in each location make the playoffs. I also like adding the dh— I’m tired of seeing pitchers embarrass themselves at the plate, kill rallies and get pulled an inning earlier because their lineup spot is coming up and as a Mets fan it gets Cespedes in the lineup as it’s unlikely that he can play the field so having Davis and Ces both in the lineup is quite a boon to said lineup.
The Northwest Cactus league looks insanely easy. Brewers/Pads/Rangers catch a huge break!
The A’s and Yankees look like they catch a break with their toughest competition moving out (the Phillies and Cubs are not on the same level as the Rays and Astros).
Cleveland, thinking it can get lucky to get by the Twins, suddenly get to go up against the juggernaut Dodgers.
The Twins, Braves, and Rays looks kind of like a fun playoff chase. It’s probably a little harder for the Twin and Braves, but the Rays are probably thrilled they don’t have to go up against the Yankees.
The Nationals and Astros get to play each other ALL THE TIME.
Some good storylines and possibilities there, if they can pull it off (they probably can’t).
Nats and Astros share a spring training complex in real life. “Travel”, as it were, for that matchup is via golf cart. They’re going to get awfully sick of each other.
By the time baseball is back, hotels, restaurants and small retail will be open. Where I live the hotels are open right now. So the rules for life outside of the stadium will be looser than anything described by People discussing it today.
Baseball just needs to minimize outside contact with teams as much as reasonable and do a lot of testing/contact tracing.
A positive test is simply a DL stay – the biggest challenge is where to get call-ups from when needed. Where will AAA talent be housed and play?
I think you are drastically underplaying the amount of chaos a positive test of a player would cause.
Explain to me what you think this chaos would be? Do you think they are going to die? Do you think guys in hazmat suits are going to descend en masse and cart people off to sanatoriums?
The most likely thing that happens is that everyone on the team gets tested and life goes on.
If you are 30 years old and call your doctor today and say I’ve lost my sense of smell, I have a sore throat and a dry cough, your doctor will tell you to drink some Gatorade, get a lot of rest, take some vitamin C and ride it out.
Seriously, what do you think will happen if a player tests positive ?
Some non-zero number of people will freak out. That’s what. You can call that irrational and you’d be right, but it will still happen.
They would have to trace and test every player and personall that the positive player came into contact with and quarantine them until the tests come back. Which means no games for any of those players/teams. Which, given the already chaotic condensed schedule, would be a nightmare.
And even if they all came back negative (which isn’t going to happen. Look at what happened in the NBA with Rudy Gobert) they still recommend if you had contact with a known case you self isolate for a time just to be safe. And if someone else he was in contact with tests positive too they will have to track and test for him as well. And on and on. If you think they are just going to put the player on the DL and move along you are insane.
As someone in their 30’s who was tested 10 days ago (it was negative) I can tell you that what you claim happens when you show symptoms is grossly inaccurate and naive.
Also, since under either of these potential plans you are going to have multiple teams sharing facilities, you are looking at a temporary shutdown of the facilities the player had recently been too in order to disinfect them. Which would just throw another wrench into the already clusterfucked schedule.
There is a reason why pretty much every sport shut down the instant an NBA player tested positive. This would be that only worse due to closer proximity, more shared spaces and a massively condensed schedule.
Imagine a world where pulled hamstrings or broken hammate bones are contagious.
Those 15 day IL stints would drag on a loooooottt longer than the minimum time necessary, as they’re currently handled.
They should just play at Marlins stadium. It’s always empty.
Neither Florida or Arizona seem like good choices to play in. Perhaps Alcatraz island might be a better choice. It has both isolation and housing.
I don’t see a season occurring under the present circumstances.
All the discussion is based on the assumption that teams would remain in Arizona/Florida the rest of the year. If restrictions are removed some time this summer by governors/President Trump, its going to very hard to tell players they need to remain isolated from their families. This could be an interim solution for a few months with a return to individual stadiums later this year. Not saying that’s the correct solution but a lot of political figures are trying come up with someway to remove the restrictions soon and I suspect that’s going to happen sometime this summer.
Jeff Passan was just on ESPN a few hours ago saying mlb hopes the games in Arizona are only for the first two months — and then they can have games with no fans in teams regular ballparks. I don’t see the NY and Cali governors allowing that in their states, but some other areas of the country probably would allow it.
Under that scenario, everybody’s back to their home stadiums but still playing as Cactus and Grapefruit leagues?
I think Passan is talking the Arizona only plan not the Arizona/Florida plan that Nightengale wrote about.
Here’s in written form what he said on ESPN https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/1969991
I’m skeptical that we’ll get to the point of games this season, but of the two plans I much prefer the Florida/Arizona version over the Arizona-only version because it seems marginally safer and more comfortable for players to be at their spring training facilities.
That said, one tweak I’d consider if moving teams anyway would be to bring both the Reds and Indians to Florida and send either the Astros, Cardinals, or Twins to Arizona. If the Cards, then the Cubs-Cards rivalry could be preserved. If the Astros, then they’d be with the rest of their division.
Um, can’t each team just have a one series break once every 15 series?
I am 100% on board with the Arizona-Florida plan (assuming it’s safe). This season is going to be wacky no matter what; might as well go all out. I want this to be that year our great-grand kids look back on in the record books and go, “What the heck was that?”
A couple of thoughts, both on the compressed schedule, and the AZ heat…
Central Time and East Coast time teams in AZ could play 9am games. AZ doesn’t have daylight saving, so those would be at 11am and noon in CT and ET zones. With so many people working from home (or furloughed) day baseball would be welcome.
Also – they could schedule a number of 7 inning doubleheaders to squeeze in extra games. And to alleviate wear and tear, could go to 28 or even 30 man rosters.
There are no frontal systems that come thru FLA in summer. There is a persistent high pressure and convection cells happen as the sun heats up the land during the day, causing warm, humid air to rise where the moisture condenses. The vast majority of the summer rains happen in the afternoon and evening. One solution would be to play all the games in the morning, when it rarely rains. It would be terrible for ratings but would at least allow the games to be played. Maybe they could rotate teams thru the domed stadiums, play those in the evenings and televise those, with other teams playing morning games…
About Florida weather in the summer, early fall: hurricanes.
The way 2020 is rolling they’ll get a category five.
Lol having an odd number of teams is the LEAST of our problems. Not every team needs to play every day! Stagger the series a bit so there is overlap…problem solved!
I’m 100% on board with a wacky season of baseball, but I still don’t believe baseball can be played this year. I need to hear a detailed plan on what happens when a player or coach or equipment manager tests positive for the virus. What do you do if multiple players test positive at once, which is much more likely than just one player in a clubhouse getting it?
And player buy-in is a huge issue. What if your star player simply doesn’t want to risk dying? Some of these guys aren’t spring chickens; they could be seriously hurt. Many coaches and managers are in the higher risk brackets.
Again, it’s amazing people are spending time coming up with these ridiculously outlandish what-if scenarios. If you all are smart enough to break down tunneling, pitch sequencing, and all other amazing things to baseball. Than why is it that hard to you all to grasp a International Pandemic where there is a lot of Unknown about a killing virus that spreads by talking, a virus where there is no medicine to cure. How about somebody spends there time breaking down the Unknown and Odds and all that of this Covid-19 and worry about the “smaller” things in life like baseball when this Pandemic is over? I wouldn’t watch baseball while a dam Pandemic is going, knowing the idiocy they would be presenting all while risking lives but yet attempting to still social distance.
are we just going to stay in prison in our own house for 18 more months until the vaccine is ready for public consumption? i dont think so. im def not. im not spending 2 yrs of my life locked in my house 90% of the time.
The virus is here to stay and will be around forever or at least the near term. Come august september october its going to sky rocket again during winter months. Its not going away, likely ever.
Once we’ve got a handle on things medically which seems like we are pretty much there with the meds and masks being created, then its time to open up or we wil never open up for 18 months because the numbers will sky rocket regardless especially this winter and this wont be controlled until a vacine.
If we dont start playing baseball in June / July then we might not even play next year either as we will be in same boat without a vacine coming off peak winter flu season. in 2 weeks, Its time to open the country up and play ball.
It won’t take a vaccine: just a reliable treatment protocol.
Getting infected by itself isn’t a death sentence or even a hospitalization guarantee.
The problem is tbere is no acknowledged effective treatment yet, just a bunch of anecdotally effective ones.
Worst case, they’ll get the artificial antibody treatment into full production by fall.
It’s headed into trials right now while the production facility ramps up.
Amen
Anyone asked COVID-19 what it thinks? Nothing will happen until we have adequate testing, including antibody testing, and we need anti-viral. The next season will be in 2021… hopefully.