The Ballpark Netting Debate Is Back

Last Wednesday, Cubs outfielder Albert Almora Jr. hit a foul ball. That is not an unusual occurrence at a baseball game, except that this particular foul ball hit a four-year-old girl in the stands. Almora, quite understandably, was visibly shaken.

Unsurprisingly, the incident ignited another round of debate over a topic we first discussed last year: protective netting at ballparks. Brian Johnson, a former major league catcher and current scout for the San Francisco Giants, told CNN’s Jeff Pearlman that the existence of seats without netting is like building cars without seat belts. But, as we discussed last year, the law doesn’t see it that way:

As explained in the Restatement [of Torts], there exists in the law a doctrine called “assumption of the risk.” In the context of baseball, that basically means that if you sit in an area without protective netting and you know it’s a possibility that a foul ball might come your way, you can’t sue the team for getting injured by that foul ball. As one court put it in a case called Edward C. v. City of Albuquerque, a fan ‘must exercise ordinary care to protect himself or herself from the inherent risk of being hit by a projectile’ — even if that projectile is traveling upwards of 100 mph.

There’s a really excellent write-up on this that you can read here. In short, however, this “baseball rule” represents the majority rule in the United States. If a foul ball comes your way at a ballpark, the law basically says you should have seen it coming. You’ll probably find language on your ticket saying you assume the risk of injury by foul ball, like the Yankees have on theirs.

What the law says, in essence, is that if you’re injured by a foul ball and there isn’t netting in front of your seat, it’s your fault. If you’re injured by a foul ball and there is netting, it becomes the team’s fault to the extent the netting didn’t suffice to block the foul ball. This seemingly counterintuitive rule, however, doesn’t make sense in an age of unprecedented fastball speeds and batted ball exit velocities, where fan injuries from foul balls are on the rise. The most commonly cited statistic, 1,750 batted ball injuries per season, would make these injuries more common than batters being hit by pitches.

Cubs General Manager Jed Hoyer is also a proponent of expanded netting for this reason. In an interview with 670 The Score, he said:

“You’re not paying attention all the time. The balls are going faster and harder than ever. There’s just no way to react. Our fielders can barely react at times with a hard line drive. To expect a parent or a kid to react to a ball that flies into the stands, it’s not realistic. I think that shouldn’t be part of going to a game. Going to a game should be about spending time with the family and being entertaining and watching these great athletes. The idea of getting hurt should not be at all be a part of the equation.

When the ball is on a line close to the dugouts or beyond the dugouts, there’s just no time to react. I think we have to admit that and realize it. I’d always be in support of netting that area.”

And Hoyer is on to something here: as FanGraphs’ own Nathaniel Grow discussed last year, fans simply don’t have enough time to react to foul balls, especially because seats are closer to the field now than they’ve ever been before:

At 110 miles per hour, a spectator seated sixty feet from home plate would have just four-tenths of a second to react to a foul ball, giving even those fans paying extremely close attention to the action on the field virtually no chance of avoiding injury. Indeed, at four-tenths of a second the hypothetical fan described above would actually have less time to react than MLB batters have to avoid being hit by a 95 mile-per-hour fastball. If elite professional athletes of this caliber are often unable to get out of the way of such a fast-moving projectile, it should come as no surprise that fan injuries from foul balls have become even more common occurrences than batters being hit by a pitch in recent years.

Now, to be fair, before the 2018 major league season, Major League Baseball issued new netting guidelines, specifically including that netting should extend at least as far as each team’s dugout. However, as USA Today noted last week, netting lengths still vary by franchise, with the Baltimore Orioles providing the most protection (three sections past the dugouts in the outfield).

In light of last week’s incident, there groundswell has been a groundswell of support for netting that extends down the entirety of each foul line – from behind home plate to the foul pole in each corner – as it does in professional leagues in Japan and Korea. But this idea isn’t new. The MLBPA has been attempting to include this as a provision in collective bargaining agreements since 2007.

I asked our resident KBO and NPB connoisseur, Sung Min Kim, about netting in the KBO. He told me that, as far as the KBO is concerned, the netting was a problem because fans used to climb it in an effort to get on the field:

“At the Jamsil Stadium [where the LG Twins and Doosan Bears play], they lowered the net from eight meters to three meters on the infield to improve the sightline, and they instituted facility workers to blow whistles every time a batted ball comes into the stands, but this is a long time ago. They still do have whistle blowers in ballgames, but I’m not sure if they have the same height. I actually doubt it. I think it’s entirely possible that they made the nets taller again. The ones I’ve seen look most definitely taller than three meters.”

He was right, of course. Jamsil Stadium raised the net height last year; the SK Wyverns also raised raised their net height, to nine meters.

In NPB, the extensive netting is not a result of league mandate, but of a court decision after a woman injured by a foul ball sued the Nippon Ham Fighters:

Japanese baseball officials appear headed for the trenches after a court’s unprecedented decision to force a team to compensate a female spectator who was blinded in one eye when she was hit by a line drive at a ballgame. The decision handed down by the Sapporo District Court on March 26, the day before the regular season got under way, ordered the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters professional baseball team, Sapporo Dome Co. and the city of Sapporo to pay the woman, who has asked to remain nameless, about ¥41.9 million (about $350,000). Although there have been similar incidents in the past of fans being hurt by foul balls and suing teams, this time an example is being made of the Hokkaido-based club with ramifications that are causing baseball clubs to take note, in what most of them view as a critical indictment of their sport.

“It was a tragic accident but I was shocked when I saw that decision,” Chiba Lotte Marines president Shinya Yamamuro recently told Kyodo News. In the ruling, Presiding Judge Yasuhiro Hasegawa noted that the area above the almost 3-meter tall fence for the infield stands was not furnished with protective netting.

The key aspect of the court’s ruling was that “simply warning spectators to be careful of foul balls by making public service announcements or on the large screen panels is not enough.” This was significant, because Japanese law had previously accepted a variation of the same “baseball rule” that American courts had enforced. Contractually, Japanese courts had believed, fans assumed the risk of injury by attending the game. The decision against the Nippon Ham Fighters changed the calculus for teams, with one Japanese baseball official sarcastically telling the Japan Times that “[I]f we continue to have court orders for compensation of large sums like this we’ll end up having to cover up stadiums to their ceilings in bulletproof glass.” That didn’t happen, but now every NPB stadium has netting extending all the way to each foul pole. Ironically, however, NPB teams are increasingly offering “exciting seats” without that netting, where spectators are encouraged, but not required, to wear helmets.

Meanwhile, minor league games continue to have netting largely limited to behind the plate. On Saturday, a young child was seriously injured by a foul ball launched into the stands during an Indianapolis Indians game. The boy was taken to the hospital, and no updates were available on his condition. The baseball rule, however, remains the law of the land even as courts have declined to follow it in instances, like those involving t-shirt cannons.





Sheryl Ring is a litigation attorney and General Counsel at Open Communities, a non-profit legal aid agency in the Chicago suburbs. You can reach her on twitter at @Ring_Sheryl. The opinions expressed here are solely the author's. This post is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended as legal advice.

165 Comments
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bartonlsmith
7 years ago

I wouldn’t all it a debate. It’s much more like proponents of more netting calling anyone who questions the idea heartless, idiot, argumentative, etc. I think this issue offers the opportunity for commenters to feel like they’ve struck an important blow for child safety without leaving their chair.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

Cool story, bro.

Mike NMN
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

Do you have a position on the merits of more netting? As opposed to a position on the proponents of more netting?

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I am no longer engaging in this discussion. I’d sooner take up a twitter debate on abortion or immigration. The nets are coming, and I’ll be fine with that.

William
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

You didn’t engage in any discussion.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

there’s no point in having a position on the merits because people are not treating this as a decision about netting, they are treating this like pretty much all “discussions” are treated these days: as in-group/out-group litmus tests.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

Maybe thats because extending the netting is such an obviously good idea with little to no downside and massive upside that anyone arguing against it is being disingenuous or an idiot. Or both.

I mean, honestly. What is the argument against more netting?

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago

Claims about the ruination of sitelines and the general deterioration of America’s collective toughness.

akgerman
7 years ago

moral hazard and taking away all responsibility of the seated customer. a popup goes over the netting and someone is not paying attention, they can now sue. so, then we need netting on the top of the fans. what happens if that’s not extended far enough and a ball gets through? you can see where it goes..what happens if a ball goes for a home run hits a fan? need netting out there too now. the piece appropriately points out, once netting is in place, it has to be 100% or the stadium is liable. by that point ,we’re all better off watching from home…

JDX
7 years ago
Reply to  akgerman

I wonder what a 100% netted stadium would look like.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago
Reply to  JDX

Its called a batting cage!

IDrinkYourMilkshake
7 years ago
Reply to  akgerman

I think what isn’t being emphasized enough is that there are probably different injury risks associated with different batted ball events (e.g. injury caused from a fly ball vs a line drive/flying bat).

Knowing that fans will probably never be 100% protected (unless nets/protective bubbles are placed everywhere), isn’t it still worth attempting to eliminate the worst instances, however rare?

The argument that more fans would get hit by balls from not paying attention is kinda weak IMO, but isn’t this scenario still favorable if the extent of their injuries are lessened?

IDrinkYourMilkshake
7 years ago

Not a race fan, but if NASCAR racetracks have to carry liability insurance, wondering how this is so different from attending a baseball game?

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

“Anybody who disagrees with me is an idiot”

This is the discourse of modern progressives.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Actually, it’s the discourse of people who are uninterested in examining their own views of the world, regardless of what they might be.

More than a bit of it on all ends of the political spectrum

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

100%. It’s reached the point where I start to seriously consider going back to a flip phone instead of lizard-braining to the adrenaline derp rush.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

“I have an opinion so therefore it must be valid even if its absurd and based on pretty much nothing”

This is the discourse of irrational people on the internet.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago

to be fair, the hazard of people getting hit with a foul ball, despite recent examples, is pretty minute to the point of being almost nothing. Just from a “how often does it happen” and conditional on “when it does happen, is there an injury”- the number of events is very small. Perhaps small enough to not even justify the cost of nets. Even a brief consideration of the probability of injury and costs to defray that probability isn’t particularly absurd. That’s hardly nothing, and it’s not worth spewing insults over an
argument that’s so close to top of mind.

That being said, put the damn nets up (that is, I reject the cost benefit argument against nets on moral grounds, not really cost benefit grounds). If people stay home, they stay home.

The moral hazard argument isn’t a bad one, though.

kbtoys
7 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

The moral hazard argument isn’t a good one, though, unless you’re arguing for no nets anywhere. If it’s the responsibility of the fans sitting on the foul lines to avoid 100+ MPH liners, then it should also be the responsibility of the fans directly behind the plate to avoid foul tips. If you disagree with that statement, then your moral hazard argument already folds.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  kbtoys

“Moral hazard” isn’t the right term here. That would be like if we were worried that the safety of a net would prevent people from looking where they were going and crashing into each other or something. Like how one might worry that seatbelts could cause more reckless driving.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Moral hazard is a fine term. You just have to realize that what it means is that the commenter making it is complaining more about the infantilization of the crowd than about the netting itself. Mature, responsible people who pay attention to the game instead of their phones don’t need a net in front of their face. Erecting one is tolerating such behavior.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

How is the “infantilization of the crowd” a moral hazard? That makes no sense unless you think people checking their phones during a baseball game is immoral.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

Well, given that other comments in this thread are making that very argument I feel secure in my statement that this is a position some are taking.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

It’s definitely the discourse of pretty much anyone who discusses anything online, progressive or anti-progressive. I was listening to this fascinating story about the Russian troll bots. People think it was all fake news. Actually a lot of it was creating groups that encouraged these strong identity associations, whether it was identifying as black LGBT or white Texas conservatives, didn’t matter, the point was to get people into groupthink as much as possible. And it’s working.

Greg SimonsMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

And conservatives, and everyone in between, if you’re going to start stereotyping.

jdfree49
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

You’re right, but most FG readers are, for some reason, “progressives”, so enjoy your downvotes.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago

because going to a game and sitting where there’s a chance of getting a foul ball is exciting. look at all the people who currently sit in these “danger zones”. how many of them are scared vs. excited about a ball coming their way?

does this outweigh the safety concern? down the line, I’d say no. but what about in the bleachers? someone could get hurt by a home run ball too, but the risk is lower, and the chance of catching a home run is worth the risk to us.

I totally get why most people agree to expand netting, but what I don’t get is why people think there’s no conversation to be had, no sliding scale.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Bingo. What people keep telling me is that there is no valid argument on the side of not putting up nets. My preference for not having a net is not valid. I agree my preference may not be the point, but don’t tell me I don’t enjoy the game more without the net.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2024
7 years ago

I’ll take a stab at the against…

I find that my eyes tend to re-focus on the netting regularly, such that I miss the action when I’m sitting within about 10-15 feet or so of the net. In the seats that happens, I guess I’m mostly glad that I had the net, but it does distract.

Luy
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

I’m not sure why bartonlsmith is getting downvoted.

Take a look at the responses to anyone who is even mildly anti-netting. It’s pretty clear that there is only one “right” answer in most folks minds.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  Luy

It’s because I am stupid, arrogant, and heartless. Had a great interaction with Keith Law the other day on this topic. He went 0-60 on me in 2 words.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

Keith Law is smart and sometimes insightful but I’m basically not a fan of him because he is so intolerant of disagreement. He wrote a book that took it’s name from a term he uses (smrtbaseball) that is basically just a way of calling people stupid.

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Luy

bartonlsmitb is being downvoted for bringing up wedge political issues that have nothing to do with the topic. He says he doesn’t want to discuss, but this is not true based on the simple fact that he is commenting.

The other highly downvoted comment above makes generalizations about the comments while literally being the very first comment. Amazing, obnoxiously putting people down makes them not like you. But at least you get to feel superior, somehow.

BipMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

despite the down votes, I totally agree with this comment. the thing is, I agree with expanded netting. but then I see the same level of groupthink on the pro-netting that I see on any mainstream political issue, and that bothers me way more than just about any anti-netting take.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Bip

The argument against netting is, essentially, cost. Cost that, like any other, will be passed along to the ticket buyers in as much portion as the market will bear.

On the one hand, there are folks who are aghast that cost should ever be an impediment in the way of safety. This is a fine, albeit terribly idealistic, point of view.

On the other there are folks who say that no matter where you draw the cost/safety line, there will always be some accident that would have been preventable if you moved the line just a bit more. And if perfect safety is unachievable, reducing enjoyment of the game (through obstructed views, higher prices, etc…) is a bridge too far. This is also a fine, if terribly alarmist, point of view.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  Bip

That’s what’s amazing to me. Here’s a minor issue in sports. It makes you realize how hopeless any discussion on anything important is.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

You may have just created a self-fulfilling prophecy with your comment here.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That could be

Mike NMN
7 years ago

Like everything else, a balancing act. Any open-air activity has at least some potential for spectator (or at least sidelines) injury. But until the public demands more safety, and they really haven’t yet, I’m not surprised that baseball hasn’t been more proactive.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

Money talks. There’s not many people who are refusing to go to games because it’s unsafe. But there are a LOT of people who pay big money for seats and don’t want to sit behind a net.

wubbie075
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Do you have any actual evidence for this? Are the most expensive seats not the ones closest to home plate, i.e. the ones with netting in 100% of parks? Are these seats selling less than the cheaper non-protected seats?

And, even if those seats are selling less, is there evidence that the netting is what is driving that, rather than the fact that, in general, fewer people are simply able to afford the most expensive seats?

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  wubbie075

The most expensive seats are almost always behind home plate. Which is protected by netting in every single park and has been for decades.

This idea holds as much water as a wiffle ball.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
7 years ago

To go further, the most expensive seats are more likely to be luxury boxes, which probably do have some extremely strong/shatter-resistant glass as part of their design, and are possibly the only seats in a stadium that can’t receive a batted ball. Those suites are what…$5k-$20k? per game?

But families who have to pay more to enjoy a ballgame and must put their kids in jeopardy to do so? I don’t have kids, but I’m capable of recognizing a backwards situation when I see one.

vbjd1111Member since 2019
7 years ago

“Luxury boxes” in MLB stadia don’t have “shatter-resistant” glass as “part of their design.” They are almost all open to the field and balls can be hit into them at any time. There are some exceptions, I imagine, but it’s not the rule.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago

They pay that money to be on the TV broadcast not watch the game.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  wubbie075

If nobody cared about having nets obstruct their view, there would be nets everywhere. Would you like a peer reviewed scientific journal to prove this obvious fact?

And can you think what the reason why netting behind directly behind home plate is treated different than betting along the baselines? The level of risk is infinitely higher, and the cost of having an obstructed view is worth the trade-off for safety. It’s why you wear a helmet on a motorcycle but not while playing hopscotch. Different safety measures for different levels of potential harm.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Dont pull a muscle moving those goalposts, chief.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

What goal posts?? If people wanted nets, there would be nets. That’s pretty cut and dry. There’d be no reason not to put up nets if they didn’t bother anybody. Reduce liability, increase the fan experience. Yet none of the 30 teams seems eager to extend the nets to the foul lines. Why??

This comes down to wanting to tell other people what kind of risks they’re allowed to assume. Rather than blame people who bring their kids into what you view to be dangerous seats, you blame people who pay money to go to games and don’t want a net in front of them. And then those people get told “it doesn’t make a difference if there’s a net”. As if they know what’s better for everybody else. Billions of people go to games over the past couple decades and a few get killed, and now you want to push a change on the other 99.9999% who aren’t seriously injured to make their experience worse, against their will. Some people get a lot of enjoyment by trying to dictate how other people live their lives. Because “think of the children!! … (but don’t blame their irresponsible parents)”

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

What goal posts??

You: “People wont pay good money to sit behind netting!”

Everyone else: “The most expensive seats in every park are behind netting.”

You: “well yeah but…”

Like I said, dont hurt yourself. Make sure you stretch first.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

Except I never said people won’t pay good money to sit behind netting. Very clever move there, changing the words that I wrote, putting it in quotes and attributing it to me, and then accusing me of moving the goal posts.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Except I never said people won’t pay good money to sit behind netting

Ummm….

But there are a LOT of people who pay big money for seats and don’t want to sit behind a net.

I mean…what are we doing here?

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

What are we doing? Well let’s see. I made a statement, you re-wrote my statement and fundamentally changed the meaning from one which is clearly true, to one which is objectively false, then put it in quotes and attributed it to me, and then finally accused me of moving the goal posts.

You’re not arguing in good faith, so I’d say overall what we’re actually doing here is wasting each others’ time.

Spa City
7 years ago

Just because you disagree does not justify being a jerk. Does it really make you angry that a stranger on a comment board thinks differently than you?

MarsupialJones
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Would you like a peer reviewed scientific journal to prove this obvious fact?

I don’t know about anyone else but I would settle for a shred of evidence that supports your claim that people won’t pay to sit behind nets. Because so far you have presented zero and all the evidence suggests the opposite conclusion.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

Again, I didn’t say people won’t pay to sit behind nets. And of course they prefer nets behind home plate, because the risk is much higher there.

If you want to discuss differences of opinion, then at least make an effort to not mischaracterize those you disagree with.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

I offered up that I would prefer to not sit behind a net. That should qualify as a shred. I have kids.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago
Reply to  wubbie075

Here is one piece of evidence. I would pay money to not be behind a screen. What does evidence even look like lol?

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

Have to imagine it’d have to be a n larger than 1.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

So are the first seats beyond the net generally more expensive than the last seats obstructed by it? If your claim were true I would expect that to be the case

DGLewisMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Let’s do some research. First, since Sheryl cites the Orioles, let’s look at their ticket prices. Netting runs from sections 16 (1B line) around to 58 (3B line). For a randomly-picked game (vs Padres, 6/25) seats in sections 16 and 58 are $66 each; seats in the next sections out (14 and 60) are $48.

Must be those coastal liberal elite weenies – let’s check the prices in Real America. The Texas Rangers have netting from sections 18 (3B line) to 34 (1B line). Seats in sections 18 and 34 for the June 19 game against the Indians are $78 (upper rows) or $95 (lower rows); seats in the next sections out (17 and 35) are $68.

Maybe it’s an American League thing. Let’s check those purveyors of Real Baseball, the Cardinals. Netting runs from sections 141 (1B line) to 160 (3B line). Seats (other than rows 1-3) in sections 141 and 160 for the June 25 game against the A’s are $60.90; seats in the next sections out (140 and 161), other than the first row, are $40.90. (Even the first row in sections 140 and 161 is cheaper than rows 4+ in sections 141 and 160, at $50.90.)

Seems to me that in this small sample the seats behind a net command a premium of anywhere from 15% to 50%. (Yes, they include seats several sections closer to home plate – but the also include seats as little as five feet closer, across the aisle from the next section out.)

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

One of my favorite parts of attending a ballgame is the potential for foul balls. I am sure I am not alone in this. They have seats behind home-plate with a screen and in the upper deck if you are worried about it.

wubbie075
7 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

No one is suggesting installing netting so tall as to make it practically impossible for any foul balls to ever reach the stands. We’re simply saying that the netting should be enough to protect people from super fast line drives that non-professional baseball players are not accustomed to reacting to.

The standard pop-ups into the stands will very likely be mostly unaffected.

And on an entirely personal note, I’ve never really seen the appeal of foul balls. I’d LOVE to get my hands on a home run ball, though.

Andrew
7 years ago

I am certainly not an engineer, but couldn’t they hang “retractable” nets down the lines? Keep the nets up once batting practice is over until 15/30 minutes before the game, so kids can still try to get autographs. Put the nets down during the game. Maybe from a height of 30 feet…lock them down below the wall. Keep the maintenance of the motors up to date. Security guys could check the locks between innings at the base of the wall (inside the stands).

I could see the “obstructive” sight lines argument but they have cameras hanging over football fields and it doesn’t seem to bother (most) football fans. There are nets hanging all around home plate and over the dugouts now and (most) people don’t complain. I’m all about “pay attention” at the game, but…if you are down the lines at any high level baseball game the chance of having a life altering experience are real. Not “likely”….but why take a chance.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

I’ve seen examples of retractable netting and that goes a long way, I think.

baubo
7 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

You would be surprised at how little innovation any company would make when theres no pressure for it. I’ve worked at companies where technology is 5 years behind the times but since they work no one replaces them.

Now, if you told MLB owners that can each make an additional 10mil from ticket sales with retractable netting, there would be state of the art technology at every stadium.

But theres so little traction on netting because fans in general dont care and the incentives for having them ranged from negative to neutral. Not because owners are incapable of doing so.

Cave Dameron
7 years ago

They should just have safety glass around the edges of the stands, like they have at hockey arenas. Fans could bang on the glass too.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

Didnt the old metrodome (or whatever it was called in Minnesota) have glass in the OF?

Six Ten
7 years ago

It was the most cost-effective way to cut down on home runs, I think. It made the wall taller without having to move/cut down on seats.

I’m not sure how it compares to netting on cost or view obstruction. I imagine glare would be an issue from time to time, since down the line you’re looking at an angle to the surface of the glass far more than you are in the outfield. But then again, netting covers more of the view at an angle than it does straight on.

rosen380
7 years ago

“At 110 miles per hour, a spectator seated sixty feet from home plate would have just four-tenths of a second to react to a foul ball, giving even those fans paying extremely close attention to the action on the field virtually no chance of avoiding injury”

Are there that many seats that close to home plate, that don’t already have netting in place (and in place probably for decades)?

v2miccaMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

I know this is a little off discussion, but the first thing I thought of was the pitcher, who after planting and landing is standing just under 60 feet away from home plate. I know they have accepted the risk more so than that spectators, but eventually we are going to have to come up with some protective options for the hurlers.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

We already have them, but pitchers don’t want to wear them.

wubbie075
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Hockey players didn’t want to wear hard helmets either. Then it was mandated, and after all the older players who were grandfathered in under the old rules finally retired, it’s become normal.

This stuff needs to begin at the lowest levels of youth play, then as these kids get older and eventually make it to the highest levels and the oldest players go away, there won’t be anyone left who is not used to it.

Cave Dameron
7 years ago
Reply to  wubbie075

Hits to the head are much more common in hockey. It rarely happens in baseball and it happens multiple times a game in hockey, they’re not even remotely the same thing. A more apt comparison would be helmets for hitters but we already have those.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

some softball players wear facemasks on the mound (40 odd foot distance?). During the Stanford game last night, the commenters were talking about whether the guys in college baseball should be wearing them. I dunno if it’s surprising, but the general temperature was “yeah I would wear one” from the commenters.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

different fields are different? I always felt the coverage at Chavez Ravine was a lot better than it was at Coors field, where sitting right on the first base line requires constant attention

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

For the amount of injuries caused by a lack of netting, the response is so extremely over the top that it’s just become silly. Once the progressive faction of baseball fans latch onto an idea they run with it and brand anybody who disagrees a terrible person.

The fact is: people want to sit in seats with a view unobstructed by netting. They know the risk, and they embrace it. It’s 1000x more dangerous to drive to a game than it is to sit in a seat once you’re there, and people should be allowed to assume both of those risks. All you can do is warn people of them. No amount of “it’s the same thing, you can’t even tell the difference!” will change that. People will pay more for seats that don’t have netting in front of them, which is why teams don’t want to change. If it’s so dangerous to sit in seats not protected by netting, then simply don’t sit in those seats. That’s a very simple solution to the problem.

PhilMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Aren’t the most expensive seats all protected by netting? So maybe people are prepared to pay even more for being close to the action without the risk of being hit by a foul ball.

(I’m not an expert on stadium pricing, so I am prepared to be completely wrong with the pricing)

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Phil

If people wanted to pay more for seats with netting, then there would be netting everywhere and owners wouldn’t be fighting it’s implementation.

Luy
7 years ago
Reply to  Phil

This is such a disingenuous argument. There is no control for the fact that these are the best seats in the house. Sitting directly behind home plate =/= sitting 40 ft down the line from 3rd base. The desire/tolerance for netting at both seats is not the same. To act as though it is, is silly.

wubbie075
7 years ago
Reply to  Luy

Look at DGLewis’s post above. He notes that in the sections on either side of the end of the netting in multiple stadiums the seats behind the netting are significantly more expensive despite the fact that in some cases there is only a difference of a few feet between the netted and non-netted seats.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

An even simpler solution would be putting up netting. That way you are not forcing fans to choose between good seats and potential injury.

But maybe that is to logical for the internets.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago

Seems like a reasonable segmentation exercise. Let people choose the amount of risk they want to assume by charging them a premium to be exposed to foul balls.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

Why even go to a game at all? Traveling to the game itself is infinitely more dangerous than watching it on TV. Is it so hard to use this logic, people?!

CC AFCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Wait, what’s the logic part? Driving is dangerous therefore we shouldn’t take measures to prevent injuries at the game because you might die on the way home, anyway? I think non sequiturs are generally disfavored in logic.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Why do you think it’s productive top purposefully mischaracterize the argument of people you disagree with? If you have a good argument it should stand on it’s own without having to flavour it with dishonesty.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

I love how you are single handedly proving how ridiculous and irrational the counter argument to more netting is. lol.

The MLBPA should just put you up in front of a microphone for 10 minutes and there would be new netting the next day.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago

As a person just stumbling in here 100+ comments already on the board – its your team that seems desperate, petty and angry. Its OK if an anonymous poster has a criticism of this blog post.

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

+100. The safest move is to stay in bed all day!

RonnieDobbs
7 years ago

You describe attending a baseball game like it is wandering across a shooting range blindfolded.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Do we know that people will pay more for seats that don’t have netting? We know that increase ballpark security has downward pressure on attendance (mind you there’s a lot of stuff going on in that data), but going from that finding to this one is a stretch.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago

One tidbit from this that I’m wondering about: why the hell is the MLBPA worried about this/conceding bargaining ground on this issue in collective bargaining? It’s unclear to me why longer nets would be a part of the collective bargaining process.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

The owners absolutely don’t want to do it, and the players don’t really care, so therefore it’s a bargaining chip for them. They can get the owners to concede on another issue in return for dropping the issue of more netting.

William
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Almora sure seemed like he cared last week.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

If I were a player, I might like to know that some effort has been made to stop me doing my job from accidentally killing a 3 year old some fine day. It might not be on the top of my job demands, but I can see having it on the list.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I’ve spoken to some players who are adamant about extending the nets. In fact, that’s why I’ve come around (hard to believe, but people yelling at me on twitter didn’t do the trick). As Doug says, the last thing a batter wants to think about at the plate is the possibility of a bad swing hurting someone.

chasfhMember since 2018
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

Plus, bonus: nets will keep random crazies from running onto the field. Players want nothing to do with that.

Spa City
7 years ago

I don’t care whether they install netting or not – I will still go to as many games as possible either way. My input is more limited… I believe it should be left to each team to decide on their netting situation, and not a decision made by MLB.

Each ballpark is different, and each team faces unique legal issues based on state law. Many teams don’t own their own ballparks, and the ballpark owner likely faces their own unique legal issues. Ultimately, all decisions like this involve an equation balancing the effect on fan experience versus risk of injury. I would let individual teams, and the owners of the ballparks, decide on their own how they want to proceed.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
7 years ago
Reply to  Spa City

The differences in state laws pertaining to these injuries are negligent/nonexistent. This isn’t similar to HR fence length or scoreboard design–it’s more in common with the many, many regulations (local, state, and federal) that already regulate the food, bathrooms, parking, stairwells, and everything else about the stadium anyway. I don’t understand why people make a last stand against regulation on “Let Children Die Hill.”

Luy
7 years ago

“I don’t understand why people make a last stand against regulation on “Let Children Die Hill.””

Well… at least we can have reasoned discussions about this. :/

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Spa City

Allowing teams to give people the ability to determine their own risk exposure?? Sounds like late stage capitalism to me.

merlin401
7 years ago

Would it be such a such a stupid idea to just have full protective netting down along one side (lets say the third base line since there are more righties anyway). That way you can sit in lower bowl seats with protective netting if you like, or you could sit in lower bowl seats that are unobstructed. Since there are proponents of both ideas, have a half and half solution that satisfies both. Just like how everyone is satisfied that one league has a DH and one league has pitcher bat. Oh…

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  merlin401

This would be an interesting experiment. Put netting all the way to the foul poles on one side, and leave it as-is on the other side. See which side fans prefer to sit on. You’d have to alternate between leaving the home side or away side with the netting in various stadiums, to control for the bias towards people choosing the side of the field closest to the home dugout.

Although, if fans preferred to sit behind netting, you’d think at least one savvy owner would have put netting up all the way to the foul poles by now.

Hank G.Member since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Or, it could be that installing netting would cost money, and so far, the courts have supported that putting a disclaimer on a ticket relieves the baseball team of liability, so baseball teams have no incentive to put up nets.

Let a court reverse that ruling, and nets will go up quickly.

How many people read that waiver of liability on their ticket? About as many as the number of people who read the license on the software they buy?

bluerum29
7 years ago

Most of the time when I go to games I get seats that are up high behind home plate. It is a great view for seeing the whole field of play and a decent price. I have on a few occasions gotten tickets in lower sections, but the entire game I was hopeful to get a ball. If I’m paying more, seating closer to the action, I want to be able to get a ball.

smc5784
7 years ago

I went to the Rangers-Royals game with my 4-year old daughter this weekend. We have a family friend in the Royals’ organization who got us tickets, and they were in the second row just past the Royals’ dugout. I’ve never sat there before. The seats were incredible, but I definitely spent the entire game being very aware of the danger posed to my daughter (no netting) and positioning myself fully in front of her as the pitch was delivered, especially to lefties (we were on the 3B side).

This was the first time I’d sat in this particular area of a stadium, but I have sat in the first or second row behind home plate, where there is netting. To me, the netting has a near zero impact on viewing the game, or even the feeling that you’re right there near the players, whereas the lack of netting had a pretty substantial impact on my ability to relax. I get the argument of “well don’t bring kids to those seats” (and I probably wouldn’t intentionally … we didn’t know where our seats were until we picked up the tickets at will-call), but is that really how we want to treat fans who have families and might be lucky enough to get some incredible seats? To me, you should be able to bring your family and sit anywhere in the stadium without being in constant, imminent danger.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  smc5784

To me, you should be able to bring your family and sit anywhere in the stadium without being in constant, imminent danger.

Its really that simple. The fact that people argue the opposite is absurd.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago

I don’t agree with the argument that the reduction in enjoyment is offset by the gain in security- I don’t honestly see how nets impede enjoyment of the game, but it’s hardly absurd. The idea that increased security of one sense or another at the game keeps people at home, however, seems reasonable.

The security theater to get into a random minor league game FAR exceeds the probability of a terrorist attack and actively keeps me (and a lot of other people!) from going to the game and that’s roughly the same argument against netting. Few people are calling the argument absurd that the increase in hassle for the micro particulate probability of a security event/terrorist attack at the carolina mudhens/Pittsburgh Steelers/LA Dodgers game reduces the fun of going to a game to the point where people stay home (and if you think it’s absurd, go to a game this year with the CLEAR policy. It’s ridiculous).

The argument against nets is not a good one, but the premise is hardly absurd.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
7 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Are you actually saying people choose not to go to games because security is too high?

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Roughly yes- the hassle from a clear bag policy, the increased lines from security, and the increased ingress and egress times deter people from going to games. It’s frequently the biggest pain point in surveys (in part because stadium ops folks have done a ton of work to make the traditional frictions go away).

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Some people do, of course. Many people believe the security theatre at baseball parks and airports doesn’t make them any safer, and the lineups that it causes are undesirable.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

a particularly cynical lawyer friend of mine suggested that the real reason you have the long security lines outside of the stadium is that if there’s a mass casualty event in a security line, people who own wherever the people are piled up are liable, not the stadium owner. That’s PARTICULARLY cynical, mind you.

akgerman
7 years ago

can you bring your child on a roller coaster? can you bring you child to a 3 Michelin star restaurant? you can’t bring your child to my wedding. Can you bring your child up a 14,000 ft mountain? can you bring you child to a concert at a bar at 10 pm? there are, places, children can’t go. why is there a debate about that? it’s absurd to think it’s not that simple

Outta my way, Gyorkass
7 years ago
Reply to  akgerman

I…don’t think MLB wants to have their stadia (or even parts of them) be places children can’t go, given that they’re ostensibly trying to create lifelong fans in kids.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago

And considering MLB doesn’t want nets, then they must not think that lack of nets is deterring parents from going to the park. The risk is so tiny that it’s not even a consideration for most parents. These are the same parents that drive on the highway to go to the games, which is an infinitely more dangerous activity, yet nobody even thinks twice about it.

smc5784
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

I think much more than twice about it. I put my seat belt on, strap my daughter into her carseat, get in the safety-feature-laden van (certain features of which cost us thousands of dollars), and make sure not to look at my phone while I’m driving. Driving on the highway isn’t a recreational activity; it’s necessary to get to the recreational activities (at least here in North Texas).

And I can tell you that the lack of nets would absolutely deter me from purchasing those seats, if my daughter was with me. And although this is entirely anecdotal, I imagine I’m not alone there.

My guess is the decision is merely about the costs of putting up the net, perhaps sprinkled with some “it’s tradition / look how tough we are” old school mentality that still manages to pervade in areas of baseball.

The visibility argument isn’t very genuine–it just doesn’t matter that much. And while I definitely get that people want foul balls, I can say for myself that I want no part in the linedrive that sends even the professionals scrambling in the dugout. They’re scared of it, so I think I’m okay being scared of it, too.

Shirtless George Brett
7 years ago
Reply to  akgerman

Can you bring your child up a 14,000 ft mountain?

Yeah, this isnt absurd at all. What was i thinking?

bartonlsmith
7 years ago

Actually, you can do that and people do

dukewinslowMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

you can drive to the top of two of them, even. Like, the original point is dumb (kids are allowed on mountains, last I checked)

JDX
7 years ago

Lots of kids on the top of Pikes Peak every day. 😉 There’s even a donut shop up there. Sounds like a pretty good 14,000ft mountain.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago
Reply to  JDX

Not to quibble, but I think you can only drive to 11,000. Could be wrong.

JDX
7 years ago

I agree. We should take every single activity in daily life that has any amount of risk and reduce that risk to as close to zero as possible. That’s the only way. The fact that anyone would argue is absurd. Well-stated.

Near and dear to my heart – I think we should also reduce all speed limits to 1 mph in residential areas. Even one injury from a kid running into the street is too much. I’m glad you agree, Shirtless George Brett. If you didn’t that would be absurd. I’m sure you don’t support children being maimed by speeding cars, do you? Good! Neither do I! There’s no logical argument against it. Everyone can spare a few extra minutes getting out of their neighborhood every morning. It’s for safety. There’s literally no downside.

Luy
7 years ago
Reply to  JDX

According to Forbes one year there were 1750 injuries of any kind due to foul balls. Netting will NOT eliminate all of them.

And I don’t accept the herd mentality that there is NO downside. You can reasonably argue that the upside is greater than the downside. But fan interaction is lost. Fewer fans leave the ballpark with a souvenir (something that legitmately has an impact on future fandom for some kids).

I’m forever frusrtated by people supporting reasonable ideas so unreasonably.

William
7 years ago
Reply to  Luy

Surely there’s a way to build nets that can block a liner but would allow for popups to reach the stands.

akgerman
7 years ago

the opener on seat belts is great. like it’s a fact we’re all safer with seat belts. MORAL HAZARD..how much safer would people drive if we didn’t have seat belts? More deaths, for sure, but fewer accidents…look at HBP data pre and post helmets..another way to look at it, Barry Bonds would not have owned the plate if he weren’t wearing full on body armor?
anyway, nice job in this piece pointing out the real reason we don’t have netting, if we did, the stadium operator, MLB team, would be liable for anyone hit by a ball. alas Moral Hazard by the seated customer, doesn’t have to take any responsibility. what happens if a ball goes OVER the netting and falls on a texting spectator’s head? sounds like about $50,000…which is probalby what most of the 1750 hit fans number actually is..pop ups or balls bioucning around off other spectators. we need batted ball data for foul balls to actually see how many folks are hit by the screaming liner…but the court won’t care, if you mandate netting, any ball hitting a fan is now a lawsuit..so have to put nets OVER the top as well..maybe up into the second deck. then, what do we have? I guess i’d rather just watch from home at that point.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
7 years ago
Reply to  akgerman

You’d rather watch from home than sit behind a net? At least someone else can go to the game with the ticket you don’t buy. Some people will share your sentiment, but I suspect most won’t. And teams who win will still have no trouble selling out their games.

Outta my way, Gyorkass
7 years ago

Vendor perspective here:

Netting can be executed, even extended far down the field lines, with very minimal impact to the fans’ view of the field. I’ve witnessed several extensions of Miller Park’s netting…from the park’s opening in 2001 until the mid 2010’s or so, only the first two or three sections to the right and left of home plate had protective netting. Then, you saw it get extended at a lower height out to the end of the third base dugout, and this season, the extended section of netting got extended upward to the same height that the home plate adjacent sections have. Trust me, if it’s done right, you barely notice it’s there. It’s probably only a matter of time until it gets extended out to the foul poles.

Also, my job requires my back to be turned to the field for much of the game, while working on the field level, so I, for one, appreciate not having to duck for cover at an instant’s notice any time you start hearing fans screaming so as to signal “hot foul ball incoming”, at least not nearly as often as I used to.

Mike NMN
7 years ago

Thanks for that informed addition.

Outta my way, Gyorkass
7 years ago

Can’t edit this small bit of derp out of my comment any more, but obviously, “third base dugout” should have read “first and third base dugouts”.

Psychic... Powerless...
7 years ago

Welcome back, Sheryl!

notdeananna
7 years ago

Fun mental excercise:

Assuming MLB brings netting pole-to-pole but adds the Japan-style “exciting seats”… Which seat would cost more? Which one would you pay more for? How do YOU value safety vs excitement.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
7 years ago

Commenters keep repeating “moral hazard” in lieu of making an actual argument. What moral hazard is introduced by having netting? As the piece points out, no amount of ethical responsibility makes it possible to react to a high-velocity batted ball. Whence the moral hazard?

Six Ten
7 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

Yeah, when you’re dealing with very concrete real-world issues, arguments from first principles are mostly a hand-waiving excuse rather than useful counterpoints. They’re worth considering! “Moral hazard” is a good first principle to be aware of! But, yeah, with balls hit as hard as they are now in entertainment venues where there will always be people switched off from time to time, and *which actually injure people a lot already* the first principle of moral hazard fades into near meaninglessness, except as a question of financial liability for the owners, which is why it needs to be mandated by league rules or laws rather than individual team choice.

On the other hand, “the separation caused by nets hurts entertainment value” is a plausible real-world argument. But I don’t know that it’s borne out by any evidence, whereas “fans in seats not protected by nets get hit by baseballs” is borne out quite clearly. If it *is* borne out by evidence, that’s interesting and that evidence is worth seeing! Until it is, I don’t know why we should take it as seriously as the already-existing safety issues.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

Very well put, though I still don’t see how moral hazard is a relevant issue in this case, either as a first principle or a practical concern. Not a single person has articulated what the moral hazard actually is, they are just repeating it like a mantra because they think it makes them seem logical and sophisticated.

akgerman
7 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

let me try again. If you know the nets will “protect” you, then you have no obligation to pay attention to any ball or bat coming your way, and thus, if a ball were to go OVER the net and hit you, it’s actually worse than before when one knew all along they had to pay attention. I tried to use the seat belt analogy and the helmets for batters. Once seat belts are installed, and now, traction control, all wheel drive, airbags, etc, it takes the responsibility away from the driver and, once again, allows even for the drive to either take more chances at worse, or jus tnot pay attention at best..”I can check this text, worse case my car will stop automatically if it gets too close to another car”..
Once batters wore helmets, they leaned in more, pitchers threw inside more and thus, more batters were hit. check the data.
So, if now people are fully “protected” by that net, and, as the writer of the piece pointed out, once there’s a net the stadium operator is fully liable, well, it really escalates….the person both “thinks” they’re fine and pays 0 attention, and the operator, by law, must assure that’s true, if not..lawsuits everywhere. A commenters above made the point, we’d need the entirety of the field and the stands separated by a net. If just one ball gets through, it’s a lawsuit, and my Moral Hazard point is, the spectator could be injured by something as simple as a pop up because they have the belief they’re fully safe, they take no responsibility to pay any attention, and sickly, can hope to get knocked by a ball so they can have a pay day.
Liability is the full on name of the game here. It’s 130 comments here about site lines vs keeping my shitty kid safe and “faster balls coming into the stands” (really? there weren’t 95mph in 1950? i’d argue fewer balls make it into the stands now than ever as Strikeouts are less frowned upon) anyway, the whole thing, as nicely pointed out in the piece is an issue for who’s made to be at fault, and, i’m saying, if we make the operator at fault, well, we’re going to be seeing a different kind of stadium, and have a different kind of experience and, maybe, maybe no game at all. I do know this, the reason people aren’t attending baseball games IS NOT BECAUSE THEY DON’T FEEL SAFE. But, those who do go and sit behind third base, would have a hard choice to make if the experience were even 5% less as good.

bartonlsmith
7 years ago

Not surprisingly, anyone asking questions about the need to change the status quo is attacked. If you are for more nets, relax. You’re going to get them. Quit acting so defensive as if your position is weak. Unless, of course, attacking people who disagree with you makes your feel morally or intellectually superior. Then, by all means, go ahead and show us who you are.

evo34Member since 2023
7 years ago
Reply to  bartonlsmith

This is a classic case of certain attention-deprived individuals aggressively “taking a stand” to defend a position that 90% of people already agree with.

It just becomes a grandstanding contest to see who can claim to be *more* for fan safety than you are.

Erick
7 years ago

The argument seems like sightlines versus safety. It sounds like there is an opportunity for a company to create a netting that doesn’t take away from sightlines. Maybe even nanotechnology in the future!

chasfhMember since 2018
7 years ago

Major League Baseball will extend nets all the way around the stadium. Book that. They can’t not do it.

Baseball has always been the beneficiary of the Baseball Rule, protecting them from liability for balls that go into the stands and hurt fans, who ostensibly accept full responsibility should that happen because they bought the ticket, and therefore they assume the risk. At least that’s always been the case in the past.

But the moment a small girl at Yankee Stadium got hurt, and it was all over the news, Baseball felt they had to respond by extending the nets. No one likes thinking about pretty little girls getting hurt by flying objects. Extend the nets! Protect the pretty little girls!

Which sounds fine on its face, although two things:

1) Baseball now admits through this action that they do indeed have liability for fans getting hurt in their stadium. The very act of extending the nets is an admission of culpability. So no matter where in the stadium an injury from a ball flying into the stands happens, someone will have standing to bring a case against the sport and the teams when they get injured by a ball (or any other object) flying from the field of play into the stands.
2) There can be no end point at which Baseball can extend nets and escape this newly-assumed liability. By making the arbitrary decision to end the net at any point, they are making the fateful decision to protect some fans and leave others open to injury. Should Baseball be legally allowed to “choose winners and losers” by protecting the person sitting in one seat at the end of the net, while leaving the person in the seat right next to them open to being injured? After all, even if nets are extended to the foul pole, with Baseball tacitly admitting that certain seats 320 feet away are still in the danger zone, the argument can still be made that seats 321 feet away, 322 feet away, and beyond are in just as much danger, practically speaking. And since the fans in such seats are paying just as much to attend the game, wouldn’t they deserve the same level of protection?

Just wait until someone sitting in outfield bleachers, who is paying 100% attention to their phone, or to their toddler, suddenly notices a commotion going on around them, looks up to see what all the fuss is about, and gets an eye full of home run ball. Or worse, fails to protect their child from getting a face full of ball. Wouldn’t you think the lawsuits would start flying and cries arise to ring nets (or chain-link fences, which players would probably prefer) all the way around the stadium?

This is going to happen, like it or not. There will be netting, or chain-link fencing, strung all the way around the stadium. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but soon, and forever. And that will be fine for some fans, by whom I mean, those fans who are there for the social aspect, the sitting in the sun, the drinking of the beer, the walking around the stadium to buy things or to go to branded patios so they can socialize with other people and pay all their attention to them (or to their phones once they get bored). People who are there more for the atmosphere rather than for the actual game. Those are the customers Baseball is aggressively courting anyway, and such people make up a higher percentage of the gate than ever before. The whole new push to create an immersive mobile experience at the ballpark is geared for exactly those people. There’s nothing wrong with how those fans choose to enjoy the game, and I’m not knocking them—I’m just saying that’s one kind of fan who won’t care about 360 degree netting around the ballpark.

But for we fans who typically pay very close attention to the whole game, every batter, every pitch? We already feel a lost connection to the proceedings on the field from how the nets have already been extended. I sit upstairs behind the plate. For 15 years, the end of the net was in the perfect spot for me: it covered the umpire only, and the batter and catcher were just the other side, and all of fair territory was unobstructed by it. Now the net is in front of my view of the entire infield and maybe 40% of the outfield. Sure, I can still see the game through it, but believe me when I tell you, I still notice the difference every single inning I’m there.

I accept that this is going to happen and nothing I say or write can ever change that, but that doesn’t mean I love it. I don’t. But I won’t be able to stop it, so if I want to continue to pay $100+ every time I go to a game, I will have to accept however far they extend the netting or fencing when it does happens. Then at that point, I guess it will be up to me to determine whether showing up and paying to watch the game at the ballpark is preferable any longer to watching the game at home for basically free.

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  chasfh

Are car companies liable for every injury because they put 2 airbags in cars instead of 15? I sincerely hope you are not a lawyer, because your statements, especially point #1 and point #2, are incorrect.

Llewdor
7 years ago

I oppose the extended netting. The end of the dugouts should be sufficient, and anything beyond that encourages complacency.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Llewdor

This argument is what I’m talking about. No amount of vigilance can protect you from a high-velocity batted ball. How is “complacency” the problem?

Llewdor
7 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

The high-velocity balls (to which you still have a second to react – we’re farther than 60 feet from the plate) are an edge-case. The lower-speed balls we could react to, and we need to react to if there’s no netting.
I don’t know why the article used that 0.4 seconds number, given that fans who aren’t behind nets are all substantially farther from the plate than that.

Six Ten
7 years ago
Reply to  Llewdor

I agree with Ryan DC that complacency just isn’t the issue. But even if it was: why is actively combatting—or just choosing not to encourage—complacency even remotely the job of a baseball team? It’s entertainment! It’s escapism! It’s a sport with a whole lot of dead time built into it by design! Complacency seems like an entirely reasonable way to conduct one’s self at a baseball game! BE ON CONSTANT ALERT is not really the point of going to the game and sitting in the lower decks, is it?

I always figured it was the smells and sounds and sun and new angles of the game and all that. What I remember from the couple times I sat down close isn’t learning to be as vigilant as a deer in an open field. It’s seeing the individual blades of grass, getting to be *right there* for close plays at first base, hearing the base coach clapping his hands, noticing there wasn’t a gap between seeing the ball hit the glove and hearing it like there is when you’re in the upper deck.

But maybe I did it wrong?

Complacency when you’re being entertained by someone else is great. Complacency is why I stuff my face with nachos and hot dogs and beer at a baseball game instead of going for a run before a dinner of salad and baked chicken breast. They serve *alcohol* at baseball games! In the lower decks! How is that not encouraging complacency? Complacency is core to the experience of consuming overpriced beer in even modestly large quantities! Every fan deserves to be complacent! (This paragraph may have got away from me just a little. But seriously, why is it so bad?)

wubbie075
7 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

But but but… PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!! If you’re not gonna have 100% of your focus on every pitch and batted ball why are you even at the game??????

Don’t have a beer or pretzel or dog. Forget having a conversation with your buddy/SO/kids while at the game. That BS is for poseurs who don’t actually care about baseball. WATCH THE DAMN GAME!!

ashlandateam
7 years ago

A thing MLB should be considering:

This is a league where they’re trying to think of ways to appeal to a younger generation. Every time a child gets hit and it makes the news (and this did – it could be seen nationally in places that don’t cover sports), it isn’t hard to imagine parents deciding to take their young children to an activity – even another sporting event – where such a risk doesn’t exist. It’s harder to imagine those same parents with potential child fans saying, ‘there’s a net?! That’s silly. Let’s not watch baseball now!’

All I hear in this debate is baseball fans arguing with each other. It feels like the question should be asked about how this impacts people who MIGHT be fans, at some point in the future, depending on what baseball does or does not do. In my opinion, anyway.

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  ashlandateam

The people with the most at stake – the owners of all 30 teams – have each decided independently to not put nets up all the way to the foul poles. What are the chances that all 30 of them are wrong about what fans really want? Who has more insight on this situation – the owners, or keyboard activists?? Tampa would do anything to increase attendance, and they’re a progressive and outside-the-box organization. Why haven’t they extended the nets all the way to the foul poles yet if it would actually be a good business decision? Probably because it’s not a good business decision.

Instead of focusing on the argument of “this is what people really want, and there’s no difference in the experience of a stadium with nets”, some honesty here would be nice. And the truth is that proponents of mandatory nets don’t care if it’s a worse experience for some people, and they don’t care if people are knowingly, willingly assuming the risk. They think they know what’s better for people more than people do for themselves.

Six Ten
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

“The people with the most at stake – the owners of all 30 teams – have each decided independently to not put nets up all the way to the foul poles. What are the chances that all 30 of them are wrong about what fans really want? Who has more insight on this situation – the owners, or keyboard activists?? … Why haven’t they extended the nets all the way to the foul poles yet if it would actually be a good business decision? Probably because it’s not a good business decision.”

The people with the most at stake – the auto manufacturers – have each decided independently not to put shoulder belts in the rear seats like the ones they have in the front, or airbags on the front passenger side like the one in the driver’s side. What are the chances that all of them are wrong about what car buyers really want? Who has more insight into this situation – the manufacturers, or keyboard activists?? Why haven’t they installed these safety devices yet if it would actually be a good business decision? Probably because it’s not a good business decision.

“Not a good business decision” is probably exactly right, but not in the way this suggests. Sometimes things are bad business decisions simply because the cost more money. Also because if you *try* to protect someone’s safety and fail you have liability that you often don’t have if you don’t even try, as Sheryl’s post quite clearly lays out. This is exactly why rules exist and why you don’t leave it up to every individual market actor for everything.

Why is it our problem that it’s a bad business decision? The Rays don’t need more money full stop. They need more money *to compete with even richer teams*. If all the teams have to make this choice, their loss, from a competitiveness standpoint, is nothing. They will still be hugely profitable, just like all the teams are. Some of the cost will get past onto ticket buyers. Maybe some ticket buyers will leave. So be it. An equilibrium will be reached, and fewer people will get hit by bats and balls. That seems … good?

RotoholicMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

“If all the teams have to make this choice, their loss, from a competitiveness standpoint, is nothing.”

I’m not talking about wins and losses, I’m talking about money. All teams would lose money somewhat equally, but it’s still a financial loss. I don’t think the fact that all the other teams losing money would be of much comfort to the Rays, or whoever else. And if you don’t care about the Rays’ finances (as I, and most people, don’t) then look at the reason for the lost revenue: people would rather watch a game without a net in front of them. People are getting a worse experience. It sounds morbid to balance the enjoyment of a huge amount of people with the suffering of a small few (who knowingly put themselves in a risky situation), but it needs to be done, and it is done in every facet of life, every day.

“An equilibrium will be reached, and fewer people will get hit by bats and balls. That seems … good?”

Good for some, but not good for many who are opposed to watching the game through a net. If it was a good thing for everybody, there’d be no push back. For me, personally, the trade-off is not worth it.

“Why is it our problem that it’s a bad business decision?”

Because you chose to go to a game, and you can’t force everybody else to cater to your personal wishes. If you don’t think it’s safe, don’t go.

ashlandateam
7 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

“If you don’t think it’s safe, don’t go.”

That actually nearly summarizes my point. Baseball wants to attract young people – young people with parents, who don’t care about whether or not it’s a ‘worse experience’ to look through a net. Baseball – under the watch of the aforementioned 30 owners who’ve decided not to do this – has fallen behind the other major sports in this country, for all sorts of reasons. ‘Your kid may get hit’ is a solid reason not to take your kid to a game, if you’re look at this from the standpoint of a parent. And that matters.

You may not care who does and doesn’t go to a game. MLB needs to. All I’ve heard and read for years is that the baseball fan is a dinosaur slowly dying, without young fans to replace them; attendance and ratings back that up. This is one of three dozen ways the game could cater more to families, with children, who can grow up to keep the game going. I don’t, and shouldn’t, matter to baseball – I’ll watch no matter what. I suspect you’re the same. MLB needs to worry about making more people like you and me.

evo34Member since 2023
7 years ago
Reply to  ashlandateam

Attending games — which used to be the only way to enjoy them visually — is becoming increasingly meaningless to the bottom line in sports.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/07/nobodys-going-to-sports-in-person-and-no-one-seems-to-care.html

DDD
7 years ago

One con to extending the netting I’ve yet to hear mention is that kids love to bring their gloves to games in the hope of catching a foul ball. When I was a kid, that was one of the most exciting aspects of going to games (along with getting there early enough to get autographs during batting practice). The best place to sit was along the third base side as close to the fence as possible. Extending the netting would virtually eliminate that aspect of the game (you would have to sit much further back in the hope that a popup foul ball lands in the stadium seats beyond the netting). Granted that was in the 60s and 70s and maybe times have changed (people are obsessed with their cell phones these days). For me, the current cost of attending games is a significant inhibitor in the number of games I attend.

I’ve also been to Doosan Bears games (KBO) at the Jamsil Baseball Stadium in Seoul, Korea and they have a lot of netting. Their games, along with their sideline entertainment, are awesome!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
7 years ago

Well, I’m 5 hours late and there’s already 107 comments, so I apologize if I missed someone who already said this, but I have a kid who doesn’t always follow instructions so well and tends to freeze up when he’s scared. I would expect that this is possible behavior other places up along the age spectrum too, although I would hope less common. So I’m pretty clearly in favor of them adding the netting, and it stinks that it exposes them to more liability to do so.

It’s not that hard to understand why some people are getting hurt, and if netting will help reduce that, then it’s obviously a good thing, although obviously the liability issues make it less likely to happen.

derekbellboatingclub
7 years ago

The new netting at Marlins Park goes almost all the way to the foul poles, so I’m sure it’s longer than what Camden Yards’ netting appears to be from the link. But, you can be forgiven for not being aware of something that happened at Marlins Park in 2019.

wubbie075
7 years ago

Thanks, now someone is gonna say that this is why Marlins’ attendance is so low, lol.

MarsupialJones
7 years ago

This exact same discussion happened when the NHL put up extended netting at the ends of the rink after a little girl was killed by a puck in Columbus. Like the identical arguments about sightlines, paying attention, souvenirs etc etc.

Nearly 20 years later and no one anywhere cares about the netting anymore. and looking back all the hand wringing about how it would “ruin the experience” looks monumentally silly.

joedodger
7 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

Count me as that one (only?) person who doesn’t go to hockey games anymore for this very reason. The netting at the ends – where we loved to sit – has stopped us from enjoying the game in person. The visual intrusion of the nets detracts too much. We get our fix at home, now. Sorry, hockey , and apparently, (soon-to-be-)baseball.

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  joedodger

Well, I know a girl that doesn’t go to games anymore because of the old way. So I guess it evens out.

evo34Member since 2023
7 years ago

Far more deaths occur from falls than getting hit by a ball. Where are the nets in front of the first row of upper level seats, and around all escalators?

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  evo34

There has been talk and should be about the barriers for the upper deck. Not nets, but higher barriers. Nets would probably result in more idiots leaning over and falling into them. I don’t think it would end up helping.

evo34Member since 2023
7 years ago

For the “it doesn’t affect the view” crowd….that’s merely your opinion. My opinion — and that of many others — is that it has a huge impact on one’s view. For this reason, I always choose to sit behind the dugout instead of behind home plate.

Maybe the safety consideration does outweigh the view, but to pretend like the net has no adverse impact is simply disingenuous.

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  evo34

I haven’t heard a single person make the argument you so expertly took down. I can’t wait for force fields to replace nets, myself.

TKDCMember since 2016
7 years ago

To me, the real shock is that it took so long to even extend the netting at all. The law review article that is cited goes through almost a dozen factors, all of which have made the prospect of sitting in unprotected territory more dangerous. The seats are closer, the balls are thrown harder, the players are swinging harder, and there are more distractions (both from in-stadium entertainment and the smartphone*)

*You can say you never look at your phone during the game, but nobody believes you.

So, for 25 years starting with Camden Yards, flamethrowers at every turn, and roided out sluggers, changing the extent of the netting was not done.

Now it has been done. But it is fair to ask if it is as good as it should be? Also, it seems as though netting should be (or is?) much less obtrusive than it once was. If we can put cheese in the crust of a pizza, surely we can invent netting that more or less blends into the background.

jwa05001
7 years ago

The only debate should be netting or the glass type stuff around hockey rinks. There’s no debate as to whether more protection is needed.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
7 years ago

Came for the shitshow. Wasn’t disappointed.

I feel like it’s possible there’s some middle ground where netting could be extended another, say, 90 feet down the lines and eliminate 95% of dangerous foul line drives (defined perhaps as balls with less than 1.5 seconds flight time into the stands?), and that the correct distance and net height would be fairly easy to determine with batted ball data. But we should all keep arguing about extremes that no one is proposing.

MarkMember since 2017
7 years ago

Well, this certainly has been entertaining. I don’t think the comments have added much to Ms. Ring’s analysis, though I appreciated Doug Lampert and bartonlsmith pointing out why the players would want more nets. Perhaps some perspective might be helpful.

I’m 65 years old. When I was a little kid, I rode unrestrained on the bench front seat of a car with an unpadded steel dashboard. So did everybody else. I never wore a helmet on my bike, and neither did anybody else. When I was ten, I literally cooked a bit of my knee on a metal playground slide that had been in the summer sun. (And it was uphill to school both ways, in the snow. You kids get off my lawn.) Yet, when I had kids of my own, they rode in those newfangled safety seats and their neighborhood playgrounds had plastic slides and soft wood chips (not asphalt!) under foot.

Was everybody just stupid in the old days and smart today? Alternatively, was everybody rational and clear-headed about actual risk and over-the-top risk-averse today? I’m sure that some of the changes are due in part to new information, such as the research on smoking and on patterns of injury in auto accidents. But they also are clearly due to changes in what level of risk people will accept. Obviously this differs from person to person (see the above discussion), but it’s apparent that many people are prepared to accept costs, from the hassle of buckling a three-year-old into a safety seat, to standing in an airport security line, to watching a baseball game from the other side of a net.

WHY these changes have occurred is way beyond the scope of a FanGraphs discussion thread, but there is a lot of interesting literature out there. You have the behavioral economists looking at the (often paradoxical) way we tend to assess risk and reward. You have traffic safety researchers arguing about whether lots of road signs or very few are actually more conducive to safety. You have sociologists examining why risk aversion differs from place to place, time to time, and person to person.

The bottom line is that ballpark netting, like bike helmets, deadman controls on lawn mowers, and childproof caps on medicine containers, is part of a broader trend toward efforts to mitigate highly unlikely but scary risks. There certainly can be intelligent disagreements about the need for a given effort, but the general trend is pretty well-established.