The Bellinger Tolls For the 2019 NL MVP

Cody Bellinger
Jeff Hanisch-USA TODAY Sports

Three years ago, everything was coming up Cody Bellinger’s way. The NL Rookie of the Year in 2017, he broke out in a big way in ’19, smashing 47 home runs with an OPS over 1.000 and edging out Christian Yelich for his first (and only) MVP hardware. Bellinger had even taken to playing excellent defense in center field, not something typically on the curriculum vitae for a young first baseman. Entering his age-24 season, everyone expected that he’d be a star for the next decade or so and a building block for the Dodgers as players like Corey Seager were approaching free agency.

The ZiPS projection system, known for being the grumpy devil’s advocate as most such systems are, didn’t see any particular reason for concern, either. If you wanted Los Angeles to sign Bellinger to a lucrative contract extension, guaranteeing he wore Dodger blue for a long time, you had a loyal friend in ZiPS:

ZiPS Projection – Cody Bellinger (Pre-2020)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2020 .291 .389 .583 549 106 160 33 5 39 118 87 126 15 155 2 6.8
2021 .290 .392 .594 535 106 155 33 5 40 119 89 126 14 159 2 6.6
2022 .284 .392 .580 529 105 150 32 4 39 115 93 130 14 155 1 6.4
2023 .282 .393 .582 521 105 147 31 4 39 114 94 132 13 156 1 6.3
2024 .277 .390 .576 509 101 141 30 4 38 110 93 131 11 154 1 5.9
2025 .276 .390 .564 493 98 136 29 4 35 105 91 123 11 151 0 5.5
2026 .275 .388 .559 476 93 131 28 4 33 100 88 115 10 149 0 5.2
2027 .271 .381 .543 462 86 125 26 5 30 93 82 109 9 143 0 4.6
2028 .266 .373 .523 440 79 117 24 4 27 84 75 99 7 136 -1 3.8
2029 .260 .363 .494 419 71 109 21 4 23 75 67 88 6 126 -1 3.0

In rest-of-career WAR, Bellinger ranked third among position players, behind just Juan Soto and Ronald Acuña Jr.

Now, if this were a comedy movie, this is the point in the trailer at which you hear the record scratch, the narrator describes the humorous change of fortune, and then the music changes to an upbeat pop hit song with clips of how Bellinger gets back everything he lost and learns about the incredible power of friendship. But it’s not. Since that NL MVP season, he has hit .200/.271/.380 in over 1,000 plate appearances, only finishing above replacement level by virtue of the fact that he at least still remembers how to play defense. This is less Pixar and more Darren Aronofsky.

For a while, some underlying explanations gave hope. In 2020, the bullish explanation was that Bellinger had over-tinkered with his swing. In ’21, blame was placed on a shoulder injury from the previous postseason, one which required surgery and left him with a lot of physical weakness in his arm. After a course of weight training, Bellinger felt that his shoulder was back to where it was last August. We’re now a calendar year from when he said that, and he’s hit .195/.249/.368 since.

ZiPS is now even more negative on Bellinger than his seasonal line. As painfully mediocre as his 80 wRC+ is, the z-stats that ZiPS uses agree with Statcast’s x-stats in that they think he’s actually overperforming his hit data. Statcast gives him an xSLG of .360, 40 points below his actual figure, and ZiPS is even more bearish, pegging his zSLG at .351. As such, his long-term projection now looks very bleak, with little mitigation outside the defense:

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ZiPS Projection – Cody Bellinger
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2023 .221 .303 .406 471 74 104 21 3 20 82 55 138 14 90 2 1.6
2024 .222 .306 .415 410 65 91 19 3 18 74 49 122 12 93 2 1.5
2025 .222 .307 .420 419 67 93 20 3 19 75 51 121 11 94 1 1.6
2026 .223 .306 .422 417 65 93 20 3 19 74 49 114 11 94 1 1.6
2027 .222 .303 .408 392 60 87 18 2 17 68 45 104 9 90 1 1.2
2028 .218 .296 .401 357 53 78 16 2 15 60 39 90 7 86 0 0.8
2029 .215 .289 .388 307 44 66 13 2 12 49 32 73 6 81 0 0.4
2030 .214 .286 .363 234 31 50 9 1 8 35 23 52 4 74 -1 0.1
2031 .207 .272 .339 174 22 36 6 1 5 23 15 35 3 64 -1 -0.3

After the 2019 offseason, Bellinger’s top offensive comp was Hall of Famer Frank Robinson; now, it’s Brant Brown. ZiPS gives Bellinger only a 65% chance of ever having a wRC+ above 100 again.

Bellinger’s offensive decline is among the largest for a young star in baseball history. To see who had a comparable dropoff at the plate, if anyone, I took every player from 1901 to 2019 who had a 150 wRC+ in at least 400 PA in a year in which they were 25 or younger, then compared their next three seasons. Two players were eliminated from the dataset as they did not play in the next three seasons — the only time Wally Judnich gets to be in the same sentence as Ted Williams. That left 215 total player-seasons and 130 unique players:

Next Three Years, Players 25-and-Under, wRC+ of at Least 150
Name wRC+ PA Next Three Yrs wRC+ Next Three Yrs Dropoff
Cody Bellinger 161 1026 79 82
Bryce Harper 197 1814 132 65
John Olerud 179 1503 116 63
Adrián Beltré 161 1970 102 59
Harry Lumley 166 1194 111 55
Jack Fournier 171 473 117 54
Mickey Mantle 217 1937 166 51
Mookie Betts 185 1502 136 49
Boog Powell 176 1598 127 49
Joe Medwick 180 1917 131 49
Mitchell Page 157 1511 109 48
Rocky Colavito 179 1988 131 48
Jeff Burroughs 158 2024 111 47
Arky Vaughan 194 1882 147 47
Sixto Lezcano 165 1277 123 42
Juan Gonzalez 164 1429 122 42
George Burns 153 904 112 41
Mike Greenwell 157 1921 116 41
Heinie Zimmerman 162 1672 121 41
Alex Bregman 167 1082 126 41
Willie Horton 167 1470 126 41
Bobby Murcer 176 2005 136 40
Sherry Magee 168 1607 128 40
Jimmy Sheckard 161 1770 123 38
Tony Lazzeri 158 1819 120 38

Bellinger’s dropoff was the largest of the group, and he was the only player among the 130 who dipped below a wRC+ of 100 over the next three seasons. By and large, these players continued to be stars; the average career WAR for that group is 61.1, and that’s with more than a dozen other players still active. Even not counting mortal Hall of Fame locks like Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, and Adrián Beltré, there are 46 players in this group in Cooperstown. Beltré may represent the best-case scenario for Bellinger, as someone who was still a solid player despite the offensive drop-off from his breakout year, making up for an ordinary bat with Hall of Fame defense, before eventually finding his personal renaissance in his 30s.

It’s understandable that the Dodgers, a team that has repaired all sorts of seemingly broken players, have been stymied so far by the collapse of Bellinger’s offense. After all, there’s a reasonable case to make that, among young superstar hitters, the magnitude of his fall has been unprecedented. It may be someone else’s problem soon, with the Dodgers not even allowed to offer him less than $13.4 million for the 2023 season, suggesting that he’s a prime candidate to be non-tendered this offseason. Next time a young star signs a long-term contract that trades a reasonable amount of money in order to mitigate risk, remember the tale of Cody Bellinger, who has seen his dream become more of a requiem for one.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

117 Comments
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Anon21Member since 2018
4 years ago

This is presumably meaningless, but one thing that I always thought was a bit off about Bellinger’s breakout 2019 is that it was basically one ridiculous, transcendent month followed by five months that were certainly good, but much more All-Star level than MVP level. Again, I’m sure that’s meaningless, it just sticks out because the crazy month was the first month of the season, so there was really nowhere to go but down the rest of the year.

Tymathee
4 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Tell me you don’t know anything about cody bellinger without telling me you dont know anything about cody bellinger.

Yes, his April was out of this world but he was still a plus plus offensive player the rest of the way with an OPS+ of 164, 152, 147, 131 and 141 in subsequent months . Tell a player his worth month was being 31% better than the league and he’d be happy.

He won rookie of the year in his first season, had a 3.7 WAR his second and a 7.7 after that. Even in 2020 with covid he had a 1.6 in 56 games and a wRC+ of 113 and his woba was inline with his career norms and he was a plus offensive player but his babip tanked for reasons related to his injury.

What’s basically wrong with him now is he’s opening up too soon and moving his head too much as he follows through, making it hard for him to adjust to off speed pitches (head movement) and popping up/flying fastballs as he doesn’t get good enough leverage to drive the ball (opening up too soon)

HIs issues are fixable, he just needs to be more consistent. It may come down to what helped fix Muncy, bellinger is in a comfortable batting stance but its’ not producing results.

He shouldn’t have changed his stance after 2019 cuz like dde, you won an mvp, why the hell would you change anyting

Anon21Member since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  Tymathee

Reading comprehension not your strong suit? I didn’t say he was bad after April, I said he was All-Star level rather than MVP level. I stand by that. He was 16th-highest in fWAR after April in MLB and 7th in the NL, in a scrum with about 15 NL guys who did about as well or better. Still a deserving MVP recipient since April did happen and he was amazing, but it just stands out to pack so much of your overall production into one month.

Ukranian to Vietnamese to French is back
4 years ago
Reply to  Tymathee

You say we don’t know anything about the Bellinger Code, but you don’t say what you know about the Bellinger Code.

Yes, his December is the best in the world, but he still adds to the offense for the rest of the series with OPS+164, 152, 147, 131 and 141 in the following months. Tell the player that his month is 31% of the tournament and it will be finished.

He won an hour as a rookie in his first season, with a VAR of 3.7 in the second and 7.7 after that. As of 2020, with Tsovid, he has 1.6 in 56 games and 113 HRC, and his goal fulfills his professional standard and is more of an attacking player, but his baby has been suspended due to injury.

We can’t make it, but we can’t. goals for him, and you should find evidence of pitches (head movement) and fastball floaters, because he did not get enough good pitches (too early)

I can see problems with AI, but they need to be fixed. It can beat the guide, but it can’t lead to the outcome.

It’s still bad weather for the snakes in 2019, but you won the MVP, damn it, you’re going to mess it up

Pike Parker
4 years ago

How does WAR translate to VAR? In between France and the Ukraine, was there a stopover in Transylvania?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Pike Parker

If you’re driving, you’d go through Germany for sure, and that would do it. My guess is that you probably would want to drive through Frankfurt and Dresden, since that would deposit you further away from the border with Belarus.

That said, I always thought of a translation as a more instantaneous type thing, with the only stops being in Vietnam and France.

Mahoney
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The trans-European highway E50 connects France and Ukraine (where it’s the largest highway in the nation). After passing through Germany, the E50 moves through the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

The three largest ethnic minorities in the Czech Republic are Ukrainians, Slovaks…and Vietnamese.

Last edited 4 years ago by Mahoney
#KeepNotGraphs
4 years ago

The first rule of Bellinger Code is – you do not talk about Bellinger Code,

wobatusMember since 2024
4 years ago

I can’t believe they suspended his baby. His baby can’t help it.

Beer
4 years ago
Reply to  wobatus

Hope his baby didn’t catch Tsovid.

idliaminMember since 2024
4 years ago

The Bellinger Code: It’s Bad Weather for the Snakes.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

IDK about that. His April was ridiculous, but he went .998, .967, .962, .918, .891 OPS (.944 OPS in total) in the 5 months after. That’s pretty consistently awesome

Cave Dameron
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Bellinger had 4.7 WAR in those 5 months. Project that out to a full season and he’s at 5.6 WAR.

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

The truth is usually in the middle.

A 5.7 WAR season propped up by a .944 OPS is absolutely going to garner MVP votes. It probably won’t and shouldn’t win, but it’s finishing top 5 most seasons based on the strong offense leading the profile.

Can’t everyone just be right? I feel like both sides aren’t realizing that they’re in agreement because they’re too busy defending their point, but both are correct. He did have a RIDICULOUS April – dude hit .431 with a 247 wRC+ and a 1.397 OPS – it did propel him to win the MVP. He doesn’t hit the magic .300 without April, and he surely doesn’t win the MVP without April because Yelich was having a monster season himself and Bellinger needed every single bit of that April to win it over Yelich. But, he was also awesome the rest of the year, playing at what can be considered MVP level-adjacent, and would have surely still finished top 5 in 2019 if his April was another normal 2019 month. He really only had Story/Arendado/Marte/Yelich as competition that year, and two guys getting a Coors boost on a terrible team are always going to cannibalize each other’s chances, giving the rest of the field a slight boost..

tung_twista
4 years ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

>The truth is usually in the middle.

Properly prorating Bellinger’s numbers (4.7 WAR in 130 games from May 2019) gives 5.9 war, 5th highest among NL hitters.
While I agree that the truth is usually in the middle,
I feel no qualm saying that referring to a hypothetical 5.9 war season as “much more All-Star level than MVP level” is just wrong.

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

I 100% agree, it’s wrong.

But, I think it’s semantics. He’s trying to illustrate how important April was. He’s correct in that point. The rest of the season at an All-Star level is moot. He dug in as a response to the tone of the message that started off by telling him he doesn’t know anything. It was at that point logic started to falter, and the conversation became argumentative. He dug in to defend his first point which was attacked but also correct.

Then he replies questioning the other posters reading comprehension, and all hope was lost. That conversation is set on fire. It’s not recoverable.

My comment was meant to comment on that dynamic. It didn’t need to become combative because both were right in their points, but the way they challenged the other person, they never had a real chance of seeing eye-to-eye, they’re going to argue just to argue now..

Anon21Member since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

Ok, I might be underselling his rest-of-year performance. 6 WAR with an offense-heavy profile is firmly in the MVP conversation, but would represent a weak winner by historical standards. As I said, it doesn’t mean anything and certainly takes nothing away from his deserving award, just a weird quirk of what will likely stand as his best career season.

maguroMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Is an MVP having one amazing month really a weird quirk? I would think a lot great seasons have a super great month in them.

Anon21Member since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  maguro

I do think it’s kind of weird to pack nearly 40% of your seasonal production into 1/6th of the games. Compare to a similar (but superior) “young player goes nuts with the bat” MVP campaign such as Harper 2015: he had monthly wRC+ of 161, 262, 210, 172, 156, and 219. One month clearly better than the rest, but every single month at a level you’d expect of an MVP winner.

Bryson Brown
4 years ago
Reply to  maguro

Miguel Tejada comes to mind

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

I still think that there’s enough upside here to take a chance on him for something like $10M, maybe even more. The first step is figuring out why he’s dropped off so much. If playing the outfield has worn him down in some way, given him nagging injuries, etc, then maybe it’s time to take another look at him at first base. And if that’s not it, then he would at least be an interesting platoon center fielder and backup in the corners.

ZiPs thinks he is going to bounce back to a 90 OPS+, maybe a little higher. OPS+ is not quite the same as wRC+ but if you told me that I could have a 90 wRC+ who guy who is plus in CF, that sounds like an upgrade for something like 12 teams. And probably better than whoever the Dodgers have tapped to take over for him, unless you’re 100% in on James Outman or something or think that Chris Taylor can handle CF full time (that’s a big maybe).

Last edited 4 years ago by sadtrombone
Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

absolutely, and even as it stands an 85 wRC+ bat that can play CF isn’t a completely useless player

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Exactly. If the Dodgers were to cut bait, Bellinger would have no trouble getting an MLB contract for next season.

whiptydojoe
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Umm… the Dodgers have a first basemen.

Dag Gummit
4 years ago
Reply to  whiptydojoe

I didn’t read the post as speaking exclusively on the Dodgers being interested in keeping him; particularly when they noted that the Dodgers could have someone “tapped to take over for him”. While that could be interpreted in a situation of the Dodgers opting to move him to 1B, it could also be interpreted as them cutting ties with him.

Last edited 4 years ago by Dag Gummit
TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago

Bellinger is something of an answer to the idea that these extensions are always wrong. However, even with his epic collapse, he has already banked $46 million and it’s not unrealistic to think some team might invest some decent amount in him in hopes of reaping the benefit of his rebound. A rebound that might be very unlikely but couldn’t be more surprising than his fall has been.

Say you are a team like the Nats. Would you consider a contract like 2/$18 million with a couple $12 million team options on the end?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I would offer that to him without even thinking twice.

Mahoney
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I thought it would have made sense for the Nats to try to get him tacked on in any big Soto deal with the Dodgers, then tender him to see if he got more than a dead-cat bounce.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

The Nats should be the unofficial pillow contract capital of MLB for next season, and probably 2024 as well.

So yes.

Heck, I’m kind of bummed that LAD opted to extend Muncy. I was hoping he’d rebound in DC next year.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

In general, I agree with you. That said, what I would focus on if I were the Nats is relievers. Highly sought after at the trade deadline and the current and near-future options look awful.

They probably wouldn’t be in play for Edwin Diaz but anyone who has been good in the past and is having even a slight downtick should be on the table. They should be all over Craig Kimbrel and Taylor Rogers at the higher end, and guys like Emilio Pagan and Seth Lugo a little further down.

achidesterMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

this is why I’m glad they picked up Jake McGee. He might be washed, but he’s worth a punt.

v2miccaMember since 2016
4 years ago

Declines like Bellinger make you appreciate Trout’s first 11 years of consistent excellence even more. Injuries may have limited his counting stats recently, but his rate stats have never dipped below elite level.
But yeah, Bellinger’s fall from grace strangely reminds me of Jason Heyward. The difference being that Heyward never fully delivered on the promise of his talent before declining.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

Bellinger’s decline happened around the time he started getting injured a lot. I don’t know what to make of that, but I do think it was injury-related.

For Heyward, he kept tinkering with his swing to unlock that promise and eventually it blew up.

mikejuntMember
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I haven’t seen it elsewhere but a Cody Bellinger reality (as someone who has watched probably 98% of his MLB PAs) is that it’s not a coincidence that his 2 best seasons were the two juiciest-ball seasons. Cody’s swing and power were perfectly suited to take advantage of that and while he hit some enormous, prodigious tank HRs (and still does), part of what made those seasons work is that he could get balls that weren’t totally crushed out of the park. Those don’t go now, which emboldens pitchers to attack his biggest weak point – the top of the strike zone – without suffering so much when they miss and he can get a good swing on one that dips a bit too much.

I like Cody a lot but this ability to do enormous damage when he didn’t square up the ball changed the way he was pitched so much and let him really lean into his strengths.

The data also caught up with him – the decline in his month-over-month OPS in 2019 maps to when teams adjusted their shifting to him by recognizing that he was at that point pulling something like 70% of all his batted balls. In particular, teams started shifting their 1b to play on the line even without guys on base, and the number of lineouts he made to that exact spot was notable even in 2019. He can’t cover about 1/4th of the strike zone and his batted ball pattern basically uses about 40% of the playing field. With less reward when he does get the ball up over the defense, all those holes become easier to exploit.

For my part, I hope they can help him get right mentally (his frustration is obvious), because if he could just reverse the decline in his BB% to where it was in 2019 and 2020 before his sustained struggles started to affect his decisions, with his defense he’d still be a consistent 2 win player. The decline from 10-11% to 7% on the BBs has really sapped the OBP, and if he could bring it up closer to .300 he’d be a servicable non-star player, and they could be patient while figuring out how to fix the rest (as they were with Muncy for 4 months, until they quite recently found something he’d inadvertantly changed due to post-injury discomfort in his swing, fixed it, and now he’s doing damage on contact again).

BarryZitoBarChords
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Reminds me of Ryan Howard

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

The most frustrating part of watching Cody the last two seasons was his complete inability to hit fastballs. He especially struggles high and inside, but right down the shoot, he was just late, missing them. And then his absolute stubbornness in crowding the plate, in being fast enough to turn on those inside fastballs. He can’t with consistency. He consistently misses them. Yes, occasionally he gets around on an 100 MPH fastball in on the hands and hits it a mile. I spent two years fooling myself with “He’s finally getting locked in! Once he times that inside fastball, watch out world!”

I’ve been wrong for two years.

This year, he hasn’t been getting dominated by fastballs, which is nice. He’s not hitting them particularly well, but he’s not getting embarrassed by fastballs over and over in the same game when everyone knows it’s coming. For that reason, I’ve often found myself optimistic that’s he’s about to click again, though I know better (fool me once and all that).

Still, I’ll take this poor version of Bellinger over the one from last year that looks like me trying to hit an MLB fastball at the plate (spoiler alert, me trying to hit an MLB fastball is atrocious imagery).

uptheirons
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I think you’re onto something there. Combine from the superballs with injuries, and bad habits caused by injuries, and that’s about as good explanation as you’ll get.

techzero
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I remember looking up a lot of this information last year in regards to Matt Carpenter, shortly after the data from the revised (re-re-re-re-revised?) ball started coming in. Essentially, a LOT of the angles that Marp hit his majority-pulled balls were the ones most impacted by the deadened ball, resulting in warning track outs.

He seemed to rebound this year, not by changing his approach to hit to all fields, but doubling down on it. With the rebuilt swing, new bat, and likely some additional rotational training, he came back with a vengeance, but this doesn’t seem like something that can carry on for too much longer.

Marp also started hitting for a lot more power in 2015, which is the first time we could document the ball being altered, if I remember correctly.

This (great) post has shades of that. Nice work.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  techzero

Is “Marp” a thing? I’ve never seen it before but am not a Cardinals or Yankees fan.

dl80Member since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

He also hits so many infield pop-ups now. Maybe that’s a symptom of not being able to catch up to stuff at the top of the zone?

tung_twista
4 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

Nowadays I observe some revisionist history going on about how healthy Trout was.
Yes, he’s been unhealthy for the past couple of years.
But that does not change the fact from 2012 to 2020,
Trout is 4th in PA, 9th in games played
despite the fact that he wasn’t called up until a month has passed in 2012.

AnonMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Trout hasn’t played 90% of his team’s possible games in a single season since 2016 and that includes the COVID shortened 2020. Including today he has played 67.5% of his team’s games since the start of 2016. This didn’t just start recently, it’s been going on for awhile.

(BTW, dinger for Trout tonight)

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

And Heyward locked in the big contract *before* imploding.
Better timing.

mikejuntMember
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

In fairness to Cody, he had his MVP season as his platform into super-2 arbitration, so while he’s not doing as well as Heyward, he pretty much optimally timed it, which is why some people discuss him as a nontender candidate. When he was projected as the 3rd-highest rest-of-career WAR in baseball, he was also a candidate to break Betts’ max arbitration award because of having 4 bites at the apple and starting with an MVP platform into Arb1. He’s making 17m this year and, if he’s not nontendered (and I think there’s a very low chance that happens), he’ll make at least that much next year (you can’t get reduced salaries in arbitration)

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

LA’s decision is likely going to hinge a lot on what they get out of Gallo moving forward. He is a big power OF with a good glove. Don’t think they’ll keep both and Gallo ‘s salary is a known quantity.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Gallo is a free agent.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

And they’re auditioning him.
Who is the real Gallo? The guy in Texas or the ’22 guy in NY?
Bellinger they know. A chance to look at a competitor on the cheap is a fair move.
Most free agents you have to rely on scouting but having him for a few months of “hands on” is valuable.

Last edited 4 years ago by fjtorres
carterMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Gallo FA. But as of yday he had a 185wRC+ with the Yankees. It is funny how New York media is, as while everyone was aware Bellinger was struggling, you would of assumed Gallo was playing light years worse, when he wasn’t. Gallo feels like whoever signs him next is going to be happy. Bellinger? Who knows

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  carter

But as of yday he had a 185wRC+ with the Yankees.”

Gallo had a 185 wRC+ with the Yankees?? I think something is badly off there

formerly matt wMember since 2025
4 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

*with the Dodgers

As of today he has a 178 wRC+ with the Dodgers. His BB% and K% are almost identical between the two teams but his ISO with the Dodgers is 190 points higher and his BABIP is 158 points higher. SSS of 42 PA of course.

carterMember since 2020
4 years ago

Obv I meant to write Dodgers lol. And it was 185 when I checked.

mikejuntMember
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Bellingers is too and he’s the only plus CF glove on the roster. I don’t think Gallo is competing with him any more than AJ Pollock was

Mule
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Salaries can be reduced up to 20% in arbitration unless I missed a recent rule change.

Chili Davis Eyes
4 years ago

“After the 2019 offseason, Bellinger’s top offensive comp was Hall of Famer Frank Robinson; now, it’s Brant Brown”

Nooooooooo!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

Let’s say Bellinger gets non-tendered and the Dodgers decide to move on. Where does he go? Here my top places:
1) Cleveland. Starts in CF against right-handed pitching, makes way for Straw against lefties. If he bounces back in any significant way he can still play in the corner outfield or DH.
2) Milwaukee: He starts in CF until one of Sal Frelick or Garrett Mitchell is ready, then he moves to 1B or DH if he can still hit.
3) Texas: The Rangers are the perfect team to take chances on guys like Bellinger, being good enough that the upside of Bellinger would make a difference in the playoff race and if he doesn’t rebound it’s not the end of the world. Where he plays depensd a lot on what you think happens with Leody Taveras, but depending on what happens with the bat he could also cover 1B/DH or the corner outfield, all of which are positions of need.
4) Kansas City: Some similarities to Texas here, but they’re not as good. They do definitely need someone to help Michael A Taylor out because Taylor is in the midst of a career year and he’s still going to clock in at less than 2 wins over 600 PAs.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Cleveland was my thought too. As long as the defense is still good, he makes sense as a lottery ticket.

kojo
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Toronto: His 1.3 fWAR, 85 wRC+ and above average defense from this season would be an enormous upgrade from the unplayable and utterly replaceable Bradleys the team has been trudging out as their backup CF options this year. George Springer is a wonderful player, but he’s brittle. He already gets his fair share of DH days when healthy, and he still grades out as average in CF, but he’ll be 33 going into next year so transitioning him off such a physically demanding position sooner than later would be smart.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  kojo

Better choice.
They have the offense to carry him at his offensive worse and the need for his defense.

Pike Parker
4 years ago
Reply to  kojo

I’d rather continue watching the Jays trot out Whit Merrifield and Raimel Tapia in CF than subject the team to whatever circus comes with trying to put Bellinger’s swing back together again on a team that’s trying to win. Hell, I’d rather see Bradley Zimmer back in CF.

Besides, the faith in JBJ is paying off. 116 OPS+ in a rock-solid 45 PA sample.

Last edited 4 years ago by Pike Parker
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Pike Parker

rock solid, with tongue firmly in cheek.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Pike Parker

Hell, I’d rather see Bradley Zimmer back in CF.”

Let’s…let’s not say things we don’t mean. 😀

JSJohnSmithAnon
4 years ago
Reply to  Pike Parker

JBJ has 17 PAs with Toronto.

Pike Parker
4 years ago

Right you are. The 45 PA’s was Merrifield’s line and he was directly above JBJ on the stats page. My bad.

JSJohnSmithAnon
4 years ago
Reply to  kojo

That was Zimmer, but the Jays barely gave him a chance this year.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago

In seeing what he did when he did have the chance to play, there was no reason for the Jays to waste more ABs on Zimmer this year.

Mule
4 years ago

Who do you bench to give ZImmer ABs? It’s not going to be Springer, Lourdes, or Teo. It’s not a bad problem that the Jays’ fifth outfielder didn’t get reps because all the regulars were playing well.

Last edited 4 years ago by Mule
JSJohnSmithAnon
4 years ago
Reply to  Mule

Look at how many ABs Tapia got. Springer, Teo and Lourdes all DH-ing at times or given the night off. Zimmer was cold/unlucky for the first few weeks of the year then basically benched, even though his defense and projected production was higher than Tapia’s. Tapia is at his career high xWOBA and still negative WAR.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If he wants to go to Cleveland it had better be on a one year deal with a dozen incentive clauses.
And it’s not going to add up to $10M as long as Dolan signs the checks.
When was the last time Dolan signed a FA for $10M?
And $10M for a project at that.

I’m skeptical anybody will give $10M for a WAR glove first platoon CF and Cleveland gets about as much from Straw as Bellinger from bat and glove. And they’ve been trying Benson in CF. With two more CF prospects in Columbus. That includes George Valera.

Cleveland just stood pat at the deadline to see what their kids can do. And now they’re going to bring in an expensive (for them) platoon project to block their top two OF prospects?

Somebody else might go for Bellinger, and if Dolan weren’t cheap, they might go for him at first. Though Naylor looks okay there. But Cleveland got where they are on the cheap and they have yet another wave of cheap talent coming up. If they wanted to spend for a bat, it would have been this year.

The way they work, any money they spend will go to extending their young ones.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

It sucks that Cleveland is so cheap, because I couldn’t think of a team that would benefit more from supplementing their young core with a few mid-level FA signings.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Totally true last year.
And the year before.
And…e

But this year it looks like they figured out something (around 2017?) because the team tbat “specialized” in producting 4th OF has surfaced 7 likely long term regulars. They’re not all going to develop but so far two look like keepers. (Or at worst, projects.)

Bellinger looks like a better fit in Toronto CF or Cubbie 1B.
Maybe Milwaukee.
Anaheim might’ve been an outside candidate but with a sale on the table all bets there are off.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Yeah, that’s fair that they should be focusing on extending the guys they already have. Bieber probably wouldn’t take whatever they’re offering at this point, but Naylor, Karinchak, Gimenez, Stephan, and Kwan all look like the sorts of guys they would target.

If they were willing to spend I still think he’d be a great fit, but they wouldn’t. Straw is just always going to struggle against right-handed pitching, enough that it’s going to be hard to live with the offense. But I would guess they’d just move Kwan over instead (I am not buying Will Benson or George Valera in center field, and neither of them are proven anyway). In that alignment, I would assume Nolan Jones is going to get the first shot in right field, with Gonzalez, Valera, Palacios, and Benson competing for the starting job / reps in left.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If tbey don’t offer a fair 4+2 to Gimenez the fans should go on strike. Ditto McKenzie and Stephan. Not sure what they would offer Kwan or Naylor.
Rosario is worthy but he is still likely trade fodder.

Wouldn’t shock me to see Straw move at some point. His glove is good enough to offset his offensive variability (he was fine last year) and this year he’s had streaks of adequacy (based on his fielding) but thepipeline is too deep:

Kwan in CF is logical as long as his glove travels there. Not all good LF make good CF.
Gonzalez has excelled long enough to claim a regular spot in the OF.
Brennan isn’t up because he’s not on the 40 man but he doesn’t seem to have much left to prove in Columbus.
Jones has the pedigree and little to prove but he hasn’t hit the ground running like Kwan and Gonzalez. That’s his pattern when he moves up, slow at first, then he adapts.s
Benson had his first shot and got sent down for Palacios who has shown some promise as a *pinchhitter* of all things.
And Valera has the pedigree, the tools, and has been brought along slow but like Brennan has little left to do in Columbus. On a different team (Miami, KC) he would’ve been up since 2020 or 021 at the latest.

This is the team that went three years without a real MLB OF.
Baseball is weird.
Adds to the fun.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Oscar Gonzalez is going to be a sub-.300 OBP guy without a position unless he trims his strikeouts (or increases his walks) by a lot. He’s dramatically outperforming his xwOBA and has a huge BABIP as a result. Enjoy this hot streak while it lasts.

But Jones is way more mobile than I had been led to believe and with his gun of an arm should get more leeway to figure things out at the big league level. Whether he does it or not, I don’t know, but it’s worth a shot.

Valera definitely has more to prove, since he needs to hit with a fair amount of power if he’s going to stick as a TTO guy who isn’t a center fielder (I’m still skeptical).

I don’t know anything about Brennan, so thanks for telling me about him. If he can play CF then he’s a lot more interesting. Clay Davenport has him at -2 in CF. It could work.

I still think Benson deserves a chance. Maybe not with Cleveland, maybe somewhere else, but he’s only 24, has big raw power, and is crushing AAA. His cup of coffee was so short it’s hard to really judge based on that. It’s interesting, Steamer and ZiPs disagree on him. By a lot.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You sure?
He’s doing fine so far.
21% K rate isn’t that bad.
His wRC of 127 and wOBA of .345 over 50 games look playable.
His babip looks unsustainable but he’s making a *lot* of hard contact. It might not drop much.

As far as Cleveland is concerned, he’s doing the job now and doing it for league minimum. He’s the regular RF in their run at the division. (Added a Hr today in their 7-0 run over SD. Off a Blake Snell curveball. Second in two days. Yesterday he did it off Clevinger.)

No, Oscar Gonzalez is not supposed to be an OF regular.
But then Cleveland isn’t supposed to be in first, crowding Toronto.
They are, though, and Gonzalez is part of the reason, as a middle of order bat.
Whether he sustains it or not is the but 50 games isn’t easy to wave off.

(Since I’m not in any team’s blackout region, I get to watch all 30. And these days, with all other divisions pretty much settled, I’ve been seeing a lot of the Cleveland kids. They’re watchable.)

Last edited 4 years ago by fjtorres
soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Whether he sustains it or not is the [question] but 50 games isn’t easy to wave off.

I dunno man. Guys that come out of nowhere and run .369 BABIPs over small sample sizes I find pretty easy to waive off.

I’m cheering for him because I love cinderella stories, but it’s WAY too early for Cleveland to feel like one of their OF slots has been solved by Oscar.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

Not only is it just that BABIP itself is noisy because making hard contact is difficult, but when you are outperforming your xwOBA by 35 points it sure seems like this is not sustainable. I don’t think it’s an accident that ZiPs–which takes into account contact quality–thinks he’s more of a 110 wRC+ guy.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

When was the last time Cleveland trotted out a 110 guy in the OF? Before this year?
Baby steps.

fjtorres
4 years ago

Didn’t say solved.
But he’s filling it decently for now. Contact rate looks good both inzone and out zone. 15% swi ging strike looks playable. If you watch his at bats he looks comfortable and in control.
That’s today.
With rookies that’s all you can go by.
As they say, “a prospect is a guy who hasn’t done anything”, but Gonzales has 200ABs behind him. He has done something. Im nit ready to take it away from him.

Long term, he’s one of a half dozen. I’m pretty sure after every game, Francona says, “Good game. Now do it again tomorrow.”
That’s the rookie life.

And, again, it’s Cleveland, if they are going to bet on a project: they’ll bet on tbe cheap one.

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Miami potentially if they’re willing to spend, but they probably don’t want another question mark in the OF.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I would very much enjoy him in Kansas City next year.

idliaminMember since 2024
4 years ago

That makes sense in the abstract, but if the squish ball is giving Bellinger trouble, wouldn’t playing in Kauffman Canyon make it worse?

Dmitri
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Baltimore also seems like a nice potential destination for Bellinger. They seem to have some sort of fairy dust working with hitters these days. Not that the Dodgers don’t, mind you.

AlbyMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If I’m Cody Bellinger and I’m a free agent, I’m looking for a team with a hitting coach who has some clue how to fix me. If he gets back to even his 2017-18 level he’ll play his way onto the starting nine.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

White Sox are still missing both left-handed hitters and decent fielding outfielders

Another Old GuyMember since 2020
4 years ago

His plate discipline certainly has fallen off since 2020. Not only a lower walk and higher K%, but he is chasing more pitches outside the zone. Injuries may have indeed been a player, but it seems those issues could be fixed. If they are, the 17-18 version of Bellinger may come back, but 2019 does seem to be an outlier.

DLHughey
4 years ago

Wish there was a little more here attempting to explain the why than just “here are projections that don’t like him now that he’s been bad for his most recent 2 years.”

For example, his max exit velocity is down 3mph since that shoulder injury. That’s huge. His launch angle is way up–is his tinkering or compensating? Yet his average exit velo is relatively unchanged, so what to make of that? His Ks and BBs are way in the wrong direction–is he cheating on certain pitches or is he being pitched differently? Savants batted ball classifications make it clear that over the past 2 years, he’s been “under” the ball way more, but that’s also reflected in the launch angle data.

As you noted, his xmetrics make it clear that he deserves something around what he’s doing now based on his output, but I’d argue that the “why” is way more interesting than the projections alone. Although the projections in context with all the other fall-offs was very interesting.

mikejuntMember
4 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Remember that his shoulder injury was just the -most recent- incidence of that problem, and that he had several other incidents of it (all the way back into 2018 and 2019, even). It’s a chronic problem until it’s fixed, at varying levels of severity, which is why Fernando Tatis foregoing surgery on it and continuing to roll the dice was such a wild decision, and why, IMO, it’s nuts that he isn’t getting the surgery right now today when he knows he’s not playing baseball until next May.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Something has been wrong with him physically for several years now. I refuse to believe that doesn’t have something to do with it.

mikejuntMember
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I am a Tatis prophet, I guess.

idliaminMember since 2024
4 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Not for nothing, but Eno Sarris said the other day (on Rates & Barrels) that apparently, the shoulder surgery in question doesn’t have the highest success rate. Makes one wonder what Tatís is going to be when he eventually returns.

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  idliamin

Shhh!
Preller is scared enough as is. 😇

DLHughey
4 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Oh definitely! There is no simple answer to something this confusing. It’s one of the weirdest drop offs ever, and his huge, looping swing is certainly a suspect, as are his collection of injuries and stance changes. It’s a sad, rapid decline for a superstar.

EonADSMember since 2024
4 years ago

If Bellinger’s offense had only dropped to the level of fellow ’19 MVP candidate Christian Yelich, his downturn would be forgivable, given that he’s still a solid defender. But his contact quality has just cratered. Bellinger’s average exit velo is deceptively high, given that his max EV is in the bottom third of MLB.

Manco
4 years ago

I spent a few minutes looking over what has happened to him since ’21. Seems injury limitations have led to a temporary decline in skills. This season he is still building up his strength and hasn’t readjusted the bad habits he picked up from the injuries. I suspect that the Dodgers should have held him out of the first half of the season, especially with the lockout, to rebuild his conditioning and mechanics more thoroughly before giving a green light.

I suspect this offseason, assuming good health, Bellinger will finally have time to right the ship. If I played in NL leagues, I would try to buy now because of how low public sentiment is for his future. I would expect 25-30HR and 10-15SB with .240-.250 BA

AlbyMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Manco

Bold prediction. We’ll see.

Angelsjunky
4 years ago

It is the Curse of the 2019 NL MVP Candidates, because Yelich had a similar collapse, if at an older age and after more good seasons. But Yelich’s decline is equally strange – not unlike Andrew McCutchen’s, but even younger (after age 27 vs after age 28 for McCutchen). AM also had a dead-cat bounce season in 2017 (age 30) that was a pretty good.

MarioLopez
4 years ago
Reply to  Angelsjunky

Yelich’s home slugging percentage in those seasons was .699 and road slugging percentage was .569. The Brewers were heavily implicated in the sign stealing scandal and Yelich in particular was more or less called out by an opponent (Darvish). It is a better explanation for why the guy started hitting like Bonds for two seasons than why he’s completely devoid of power now but you toss in the fact that he can’t cheat with injuries and the deadball and you get some idea of why he’s fallen so far

formerly matt wMember since 2025
4 years ago
Reply to  Angelsjunky

After his breakdown season in 2016, Cutch had a wRC+ between 120 and 122 the next three seasons; nowhere near his prime but solid. But in 2018 his defensive ratings collapsed to where they were in ’16, and he missed half the season in ’19.

smmaertens
4 years ago

There are honestly just too many memes to choose from for the “power of friendship” so I’ll just drop a link to google search results for it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=power+of+friendship+meme&source=lmns&bih=937&biw=1920&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS941US941&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUlJ3S-N35AhVIEGIAHTnGBbwQ_AUoAHoECAEQAA

jsolid
4 years ago

I see that Darren Aronofsky call-back, nice.

yyysguy
4 years ago

Yelich may not qualify yet, but his dropoff from 2019 to the next three years stands at -73, which would put him in a strong second place on the list.

snood
4 years ago
Reply to  yyysguy

Yelich will never qualify for a list of dropoffs after an incredible under-25 season because his big years were at age 26/27.

connjc
4 years ago

I’ve said this before but he just looks late on everything. It seems like a combination of pitchers adjusting how they pitch to him, his tinkering in an effort to adjust, then bad habits created by injury, and now the mental aspect. I’m not the expert the Dodgers hitting coaches are but the simplest thing I think he needs to do is to start his load earlier. It won’t fix all the bad habits he’s in with this swing, but it will give him more time to see the pitches. He just looks so rushed when trying to catch up to a fastball.

Bryson Brown
4 years ago

I’m rooting for him! He’d always been a feast and famine hitter, but the shoulder injury started him on a path of tinkering and self doubt that has led to only famine. Seems like so many players have been done in by shoulder injuries. I don’t think he’ll be given a chance to fix himself with the dodgers bc of money, but in a place with fewer expectations he could.remake.himself. maybe a minimum with Tampa?

icswirkaMember since 2017
4 years ago

So just to get a sense of what I’m looking at and referencing, does this mean that the 3-year ZiPS projections on a player’s home page remain the same throughout the year and represent that one moment in time when they were run preseason (or whenever they go up)? And that the ZiPS (Update) and ZiPS (RoS) capture the to-date changes?
Thanks!

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
4 years ago
Reply to  icswirka

Yes, the three year projections are from the preseason.

baseballenjoyer
4 years ago

He was never the same after Carlos Correa told him to get the facts straight.

patagent
4 years ago

Bellinger is not right physically as evidenced by his Max Exit Velocity numbers:

Year M.E.V. L.A.
2017 112.8 17.5
2018 112.9 16.2
2019 110.6 17.9
2020 110.6 16.6
2021 107.4 22.2
2022 107.3 20.7

Even at his peak, his max exit velocity did not suggest a slugger with elite power but someone who could maximize distance with good launch angle and spin numbers giving him less wiggle room if he’s not at his peak. Now he has below average max exit velocity and higher launch angles which leads to shorter distances.

Last edited 4 years ago by patagent
fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  patagent

…without a rabbit ball.
Sounds like a perfect storm.

ismailadiemeMember since 2020
4 years ago

Brady Anderson come to mind?

AlbyMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  ismailadieme

Different situation. He always had warning track power until he, um, bulked up before his breakout season.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Alby

#sideburnpower

fjtorres
4 years ago
Reply to  Alby

Nice polite way of putting it.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
4 years ago

as a Braves fan, this is my biggest fear. Acuna, Harris, Riley, and Albies are all great young players. But there is a chance 2+ of them turn into pumpkins. I guess the good thing is the risk is spread out. But still, I’m a pessimist so I’m just waiting for the next 3 years to be like, 1 WAR years from Albies, 3 WAR years from Acuna, 2 WAR years from Riley, and for Harris to be a quad A player.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
4 years ago

I’d rather have those great young players that might turn into pumpkins than the pumpkins my team currently has.

Sincerely, The fans of every other team

idliaminMember since 2024
4 years ago

From your keyboard to the baseball gods’ screens.

Sincerely,
All Mets fans