The Most Important Bangs of the Astros’ Scheme

Just when you thought every angle of the Astros sign-stealing scandal had been covered, a new wrinkle emerges. Previous attempts to discern the true impact of the banging scheme were always limited by the lack of granular data. Without going through the effort of scanning all of the available audio and video, we had very little idea how often the Astros banged on their trash can. Were they using their scheme in every plate appearance? Only in high-leverage situations? Without answers to these questions, we were using incomplete data that included a ton of noise.

Enter Tony Adams. He scanned through 58 Astros home games with available video and audio and logged every single instance of a bang using a custom application he built. He ended up logging over 8,200 pitches and over 1,100 bangs. Last Wednesday, he made his data public on his site.

With Adams’ data in hand, we have answers to some of the questions that thwarted earlier attempts at analysis. The data still isn’t comprehensive. The 23 home games with missing video are still shrouded in mist, and we can’t assume the banging scheme was in effect during plate appearances where the batter only saw fastballs. We also don’t have insight into other possible methods of communicating stolen signs, like whistling, buzzers, or the like. Still, the new data provides us with a thorough look at those 58 games, helping us draw some more definitive conclusions.

Rob Arthur of Baseball Prospectus had this to say after his initial look at Adams’ data:

“By and large, the Astros tended to get the signals right, but it was hardly perfect. They were most accurate when they whacked the can: When they did so, a non-fastball was on the way 93 percent of the time and they were wrong seven percent of the time. … Based on Adams’ data, the Astros used the trash can frequently and they were relatively accurate, moreso when banging than when silent.”

A 93% accuracy rate seems high, but when the banging misidentified pitch, it had a significant negative effect on the overall value of the scheme — at least according to Arthur’s methods:

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“When the fix was in, the Astros received a substantial advantage. But when the players in the tunnel thought they had cracked the code and it turned out they hadn’t, it harmed the batters at the plate more than knowing the incoming pitch helped them. … The net effect of the banging comes astonishingly close to being zero. Nothing. Statistically, for all the work and effort that went into the cheating scheme, the grand result of it, at least as measured in this way, turned out to be no runs at all.”

Using Adams’ data, I re-ran my analysis using pitch-by-pitch run expectancy (RE288) and found that the Astros likely benefited from their scheme but to a lesser degree than I had previously estimated. I’ve scaled the run values below to standardize the values per 100 pitches.

Astros Pitch Type Run Values At Home
Fastball Breaking Ball Offspeed
Swing Runs
Banging 0.07 -1.92 -2.48
Non-Banging -1.60 -2.02 -2.85
Difference 1.67 0.10 0.36
Take Runs
Banging 3.56 1.91 2.48
Non-Banging 2.07 1.96 3.12
Difference 1.49 -0.05 -0.64

The most surprising result is in that first column. On fastballs — the pitches that were supposedly misidentified in the banging scheme — the Astros actually performed better when a bang occurred than without. (I am including cutters in my categorization of a fastball.) It’s possible the Astros considered cutters breaking balls, and when I remove them from the fastball data, the banging impact is greatly reduced. The Astros also saw a benefit when swinging at breaking balls and offspeed pitches. That tracks with my previous analysis, though the cumulative effect was much less than I thought.

But beyond trying to discern the team-wide impact of the banging scheme, Adams’ data presents us with a few new avenues of analysis. Now that we have individual bangs identified and associated with individual pitches, we can look at specific instances where the banging scheme had a significant impact on the outcome of a game. Using Adams’ raw data, I mapped the leverage index for every at-bat where a bang occurred. That helps us answer the question of whether or not the banging scheme was used more often in high-leverage situations. The answer is resoundingly no.

The average leverage index of the at-bats where a bang occurred was .99, almost exactly average. The median leverage index for those at-bats was .85. That tells us that the average was skewed a bit by the high-leverage situations, and that there were more low leverage situations where the banging scheme was on.

Astros Banging Scheme Leverage Index
Leverage At-bats % Cumulative Run Value
Low Leverage 308 49% 1.94
Medium Leverage 262 42% 1.97
High Leverage 53 9% -2.00

That’s exactly what the data shows us. Just 9% of the at-bats where the trash can was used occurred in high-leverage situations. That’s around what we’d expect based on the normal distribution of high-leverage situations throughout the season. And in those high-leverage situations, the banging scheme didn’t seem to provide much of a benefit. Our run values show that in those 53 high-leverage at-bats, the Astros cumulatively lost around two runs. It’s not much of an effect overall, but it’s still surprising to see a negative impact.

In medium- and low-leverage situations, the Astros banging scheme definitely had a positive impact. Intuitively, this makes sense. The banging scheme is optimally used against starting pitchers, as cracking their signs will have a more significant effect over many innings. And if you were wondering if the Astros continued to use their banging scheme in situations where the game was already decided, 14% of their at-bats where the trash can was used came in extremely low-leverage situations where the leverage index was less than 0.2.

So what was the most important bang of the Astros’ 2017 season? It’s fitting that it came with Carlos Beltrán at the plate. (Watch the clips below with headphones or with the volume turned up to experience the full banging effect. The videos begin at the appropriate timestamp.)

Trailing by three runs in the bottom of the ninth inning against the Blue Jays, the Astros loaded the bases against Roberto Osuna. After seeing three straight cutters, two bangs rang out from the Astros dugout prior to the fourth pitch. Osuna threw another cutter. Beltrán swung and grounded into a fielder’s choice, dropping the Astros’ win expectancy by 10%. The next two at-bats would win the Astros the game — with the help of the banging scheme in both of them.

The highest-leverage at-bat where the banging scheme was used but the at-bat ended on a pitch with no bangs occurred on July 17.

With the game against the Mariners tied at seven in the bottom of the ninth, the Astros loaded the bases against Yovani Gallardo. Alex Bregman stepped to the plate with two outs. The first two pitches whizzed by without a bang from the dugout. On the third pitch, a slider, a single bang rang out with a few more sounding immediately after the pitch. On the next pitch, a fastball, Bregman grounded into a fielder’s choice (with some nice defense by Jean Segura to hold the game level).

Here’s a table of the five most important at-bats where the banging scheme was used, by leverage index:

Astros High Leverage Bangs
Date Play Description Leverage Index Run Expectancy Run Value Pitch Type Bang on Pitch?
7/17/2017 Alex Bregman grounds into a force out, shortstop Jean Segura to second baseman Robinson Canó. Brian McCann out at 2nd. 6.39 0.89 -0.89 2-Seam No
8/6/2017 Carlos Beltrán grounds into a force out, first baseman Justin Smoak to shortstop Ryan Goins. José Altuve scores. Yuli Gurriel to 3rd. Marwin Gonzalez out at 2nd. Carlos Beltrán to 1st. 4.95 1.68 -0.18 Cutter Yes
8/6/2017 Juan Centeno singles on a line drive to right fielder José Bautista. Alex Bregman scores. 4.63 0.26 0.74 4-Seam No
7/17/2017 Norichika Aoki reaches on a fielder’s choice out, shortstop Jean Segura to catcher Mike Zunino. Josh Reddick out at home. Yuli Gurriel to 3rd. 4.14 1.22 -0.46 Curveball Yes
7/1/2017 Marwin Gonzalez walks. 4.08 0.37 0.13 Slider Yes

The eventual game-winning hit in that game against the Blue Jays shows up as the third-most-important at-bat, though no bangs occurred on the pitch that Juan Centeno hit, a fastball. Another at-bat from that game against the Mariners shows up as well. Norichika Aoki was up earlier in the inning; he grounded into a fielder’s choice like Bregman did a few at-bats later.

We can also use this data to determine how each player on the Astros fared in different leverage situations with the help of the banging scheme. Below is a table of the cumulative run values for each player who saw more than 200 pitches in 2017, and their performance in high, medium, and low leverage situations in at-bats with at least one bang in them (the columns are sortable):

Astros Run Values by Leverage
Player High Leverage Medium Leverage Low Leverage
Alex Bregman 2.36 -2.41 4.06
Brian McCann -1.72 -1.26 -0.99
Carlos Beltrán -0.58 -3.91 -1
Carlos Correa 2.44 2.91 -1.21
Derek Fisher -0.17 -1.13 0.18
Evan Gattis -1.2 -2.59 0.69
George Springer -1.66 4.83 -0.59
Jake Marisnick -0.65 0.28 1.41
José Altuve -0.87 1.15 0.24
Josh Reddick -0.24 -0.02 2.15
Marwin Gonzalez -1.15 -1.46 -3.13
Norichika Aoki 1.31 0.5 -0.37
Tyler White -0.17 0.81 2.65
Yuli Gurriel 1.47 5.45 0.88

Only a few players — Alex Bregman and Carlos Correa most notably — were able to take the information provided by the banging scheme and put it to good use in high leverage situations. Yuli Gurriel benefited from the stolen signs no matter what the situation was, but particularly in medium leverage situations. George Springer was unable to take advantage of the trash can system when the game was on the line or when the game was all but decided, but he really thrived in medium leverage situations. Marwin Gonzalez, the player who heard of the greatest number of bangs during the season, simply couldn’t put that information to good use, no matter what the situation was.

While there isn’t much more that can be gleaned from this leverage data, the fact that we know the Astros frequently used their banging scheme even when the game had already been decided answers a longstanding question hovering over this scandal. If the Astros used their sign-stealing sparingly or only in particular situations, that might color our perception of how they cheated. We now know they used it often and in all situations, from low leverage to high.





Jake Mailhot is a contributor to FanGraphs. A long-suffering Mariners fan, he also writes about them for Lookout Landing. Follow him on BlueSky @jakemailhot.

85 Comments
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Cave Dameron
6 years ago

Players should have been banned. Can’t wait for Manfred to get the boot.

southie
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

I’d say players should have been canned

Cave Dameron
6 years ago
Reply to  southie

Boo

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  southie

binned even

MarkMember since 2020
6 years ago

Seems interesting that banging in high/medium situations couldn’t be replaced by the game on second relaying signs to the batter like any normal sign stealing that occurs. If the dugout knew the sequence, and could relay it to second, then why bang at all. If the guy on second knew the sequence, why bang at all.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

If there are guys in the video room learning the signals, and another guy (or one of those earlier) on trash-can duty, why bother trying to teach the signs to the players active in the lineup?

evo34Member since 2023
6 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

So you don’t take any more risk of being caught than needed.

Goms
6 years ago

Man that first video is frustrating to watch. Seeing players act like they did something amazing when they knew exactly what was coming feels so gross now. F%&# those guys.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Goms

Yep. I’m still disappointed that there were no player suspensions.

KennyMember since 2017
6 years ago

I continue to be interested in understanding this question of whether, how much, and when the Astros benefited, and I need help understanding what conclusions, if any, I’m supposed to draw from this exercise. In the Athletic a week ago Jayson Stark and Enos Sarris seemed to provide pretty solid evidence that the scheme helps to explain one specific outlying area of the Astros season, which was frequently noted as remarkable at the time: the team’s unprecedented combination of high power and low strikeout rate. This conforms broadly to my understanding of what can, and cannot, be accomplished by knowing whether the pitch coming is a fastball or a breaking ball: if you know with strong enough reliability a breaking pitch is coming, you will hold back your swing until you can discern whether it is going to break outside the strike zone. If you know a fastball is coming, you can tee up. Precisely what this ought to do is allow for full power while limiting strike outs. And it seems likely that doing that will produce excellent offensive results over all.

This article in no way intersects with the article I’m referring to, and points to broadly opposing conclusions (the cheating was of limited to no benefit, rather than the cheating had a plausible concrete benefit). I get that the point of this article is to discuss leverage, and that the issue I’m bringing up is devoid of leverage considerations. I suppose it is theoretically possible that you could have a situation where the banging scheme was good for individual stats but because it only has impact in low leverage situations it can be shown that it didn’t result in any actual wins. But that seems … unlikely to say the least. More likely cheating to get a decisive edge against mediocre starting pitchers created an expanded number of low leverage plate appearances all season, while the combination of low n plus harder to read relief pitchers makes the not so great results in high leverage situations irrelevant to understanding how the cheating was useful.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Kenny

The Astros thing has really exploded in academia because of the website linked to above. The visualization is just so good that others are looking at it, and among those I know who aren’t particularly interested in baseball, their intuition is that the Astros get a ton of value from knowing what’s coming because they can implement very simple decision rules with pitches and probably nothing else in the model (i.e., game state). Basically, as far as I know, my interpretation and my friends’ interpretation aligns with your first paragraph- if I know what’s coming, I can wait for a fastball that I can absolutely smoke. I get better contact on fastballs than I do with any other pitch, and it notably changes how I’m going to swing, so the more fastballs I hit, the better my outcomes. Basically, the Astros used it whenever they wanted, agnostic to leverage, and everything that looks like a trend otherwise is spurious correlation (except maybe that the players who the other players thought needed the signal more, got the signal more, and just couldn’t do anything with it).

That’s agnostic to leverage, however, adding leverage to the banging decision rules (i.e., only bang in high leverage situations) could just confuse batters and bangers. The simpler the decision rule, and the more consistent its application, the more likely it’s going to be applied correctly. I agree fully with your last couple points too- the banging system likely maximizes value from players where you see more pitches (starters) and the use of the system likely creates fewer high leverage situations towards the end of games. Removing those confounds is essential to understanding how much the leverage of the game state influenced the “return” on the banging.

haueter19Member since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Kenny

Pretty much all the Sarris/Stark Athletic article said is what Jeff Sullivan said prior to the 2017 season which is that the Astros were projected to strike out a lot less (yeah, a LOT less) in 2017 than they did in 2016. The projection saw it, then the team did it. I have no idea what the point of that article was. It didn’t draw any conclusions, so….cool. I, too, am very interested in how much the sign stealing helped the team. I’m intrigued by the fact that the MLB report says they stopped in 2018 b/c they didn’t think it was helping. So far the results coming out indicate that there was a high and unknown variability to the efficacy of the system. That would make me nervous if I was a hitter. Having the sign is helpful I think, but it doesn’t put your bat on the ball. Having the wrong sign is clearly worse for hitting. The idea that it cancelled out is interesting. As a hitter myself, I’ve never wanted help from runners on 2nd for the same fear. If they don’t have it right, I’m in trouble. Plus, my brain doesn’t seem to operate better when I know the pitch. I’ve always felt it increased my likelihood of swinging no matter what. But, I’m not a pro either.

baubo
6 years ago
Reply to  Kenny

> Athletic a week ago Jayson Stark and Enos Sarris seemed to provide pretty solid evidence that the scheme helps to explain one specific outlying area of the Astros season, which was frequently noted as remarkable at the time: the team’s unprecedented combination of high power and low strikeout rate.

What I find more interesting, and it’s something no one has really looked into (I don’t think), is that the Astros didn’t seem to regress from their power/no-strikeout surge in 2017. In 2019 they are #1 in Slugging and #1 in not striking out. So either they have even more advanced form of sign stealing that no one knows about, or their surge was more due to other factors. Partly due to their roster turnover, but also probably some internal development.

Regardless, the more we look at the data, the more it feels like the trash can has way less effect than people think. Not sure if that’s a good or a bad thing quite honestly.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  Kenny

An analysis of Adams’s data reveals several very general conclusions:

1) most pitches were not signalled by bangs,
2) some batters received more signals than other batters
3) there was not a strong correlation between the number of bangs and the type of pitch
4) no batter received a huge benefit from the bangs; at best, there was a relatively small benefit that might add up to a significant effect over a full season, but in no way jumps out, in the sense, that one can compare any one pitch signaled by a bang with one not signaled, and see an obvious benefit.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

I should have added that while most fastballs were not signaled by bangs, many breaking balls also were not signaled by bangs. So no bang didn’t discriminate that well between fastball and breaking ball. So while banging tended to indicate a breaking ball with high probability, no bang–which occurred the large majority of time–did not really help the batter, and might have hurt him, if he assumed it meant fastball.

eastmanMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

You raised the point I raised before me, and I agree. As we understand the scheme, the absence of bangs is really not very informative.

timprov
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

I don’t think that’s a fair conclusion to draw from overall data. There are naturally going to be a lot of occasions when the banging system is not in play and the batters know it’s not in play – when they haven’t gotten a pitcher’s signs down yet. So you’d have to exclude all those “no-bang” breaking balls that just happened to come when there wasn’t an attempt to bang before looking at how many of them came with no bang when the batter might have been listening for one.

eastmanMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  Kenny

One question – could as Astros batter expect a fastball after no bangs as reliably as an offspeed pitch after bangs? My guess is no. Not hearing a bang would leave me more uncertain (did I not hear, was the sign not intercepted etc) than hearing a bang. If that’s the case I’d guess Astros batters had a more typical approach – prepare for fastball and adjust – during no bang pitches than they would have had during bang pitches. After hearing a bang, they could more reliably sit offspeed.

southie
6 years ago

My takeaway. Hitting major league pitching is very, very difficult.

Da Bear
6 years ago

High leverage situations are generally characterized by runners on base (the #1 situation even explicitly quotes bases loaded), runners who are *overtly there* and can look in at the catcher’s signs from their own bases without a modicum of wrongdoing. Naturally, catchers in these situations are going to put down a more complicated series of signs so that whatever anyone sees, it’s bound to look more like noise than signal. Hard to convey a change-up with a trash can bang, helmet tap, or whatever if you can’t decode their signals to know that they’re even saying offspeed.

The main thrust of the scheme was likely to prey on the battery’s desire to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace with no one on and adopt a simplistic sign scheme for those cases when they thought no one was there to peek in, but alas the rogue CF camera said otherwise. From that perspective, it’s rather surprising that the number of high-leverage data points is even as high as it is.

Mark SchneiderMember since 2020
6 years ago

The fact that they used the banging in low-leverage situations when the games were already decided leads to the supposition that in those cases they were playing for statistics and bigger contracts. I guess that shouldn’t be a surprise. But I am still amazed these days when I see this kind of situation: 2 outs, 9th inning, team is down 2, and the hitter is trying to jack one out instead of doing anything they can to get on base (in that situation a walk is as good as a home run). It happens a lot…..

AnonMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark Schneider

Yep, that 9th (or even 8th) inning down by more than 1 and swinging for the fences thing is just painful to watch. Worse is when it’s a left-handed power hitter against the shift. They could lay down a bunt or a half swing to the left side literally anywhere and they’re standing on 1st. Instead they pull it right into the shift.

Mario MendozaMember since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark Schneider

Or it was just practice… if you are not used to it, it probably is hard to incorporate an additional cue into your at bat, so they probably did it consistently

fjtorres
6 years ago
Reply to  Mario Mendoza

Camouflage?
If the banging only happened in high leverage situations it would be even more suspicious.

johansantana17Member since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

A combination of all three of these reasons seems most likely.

steex
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark Schneider

Keep in mind that low leverage means way ahead or way behind in a game. If you’re confident (rightly or not) that you can put up crooked numbers by stealing signs, you’re likely to view any deficit as something you can overcome – and thus do not see that game as decided.

Joe Joe
6 years ago

If I’m reading the second table right, the Astros benefited cumulatively by 2 runs in the banging scheme. 2 runs? That’s it? The penalty imposed is worth about 33 runs.

tjkMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

The penalty should not be related to whether they actually benefited or not. The crime is the attempt to cheat, not if they benefited from the cheating.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  tjk

I’m stunned you’re getting down voted for this.

baubo
6 years ago
Reply to  tjk

I don’t think he’s talking about the penalties so much as people’s idea of “Well if all it takes is some draft picks and $5mil to win a title then every owner would do it” kind of thing. Or a lot of the media articles saying the Astros cheating cause many pitchers’ careers to end and took away their livelihood.

In the end they did cheat. And punishment has been doled out. And just like steroids it’s up to each fan to decide how harshly they want to treat these players. But at the same time, for a site that’s based on analysis and objectivity, it is also interesting to see just how useful the cheating is. Even if it is just to waste a few more minutes of work time during the offseason.

Joe Joe
6 years ago
Reply to  tjk

If the magnitude of whether they befitted or not didn’t matter, the Astros should have gotten a slap on the wrist like other teams in the past for cheating or MLB needs to punish every offense like they did the Astros. There wouldn’t be as many articles about the banging scheme if people didn’t think this helped the Astros significantly. I wouldn’t be negative voted for essentially stating facts, and you wouldn’t be getting positive votes.

However, I suspect the Astros cheating scheme is viewed as a bigger deal than other cheating such that I’ll continue to get downvoted.

I’m mostly amazed that the benefits were only 2 runs. I would have guessed in the 20 range. The punishment would fit what I expected the benefits would be.

LaBellaVitaMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Acoustical noise –> statistical noise.

D-WizMember since 2019
6 years ago

No matter what you think of the ethics of the whole thing, I think we can all agree that this scandal was worth it just for the introduction of “banging scheme” to the baseball lexicon. It just never gets old.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  D-Wiz

Isn’t that Jeter’s mantra? Completed with a gift basket.

Mike
6 years ago

I happened to be halfway through the book “Astroball” when this broke out. Ironically in hindsight now, Beltran’s sign stealing is talked about fairly in depth / casually (though obviously without the video / trash can portion). There’s a quote from Correa in there on page 193 that is pretty telling. “Beltran’s impact was impossible for the Nerd Cave to quantify, but Carlos Correa attempted to attach a number to it: seven. Of the 24 home runs he hit in 2017, by the end of the regular season Correa attributed precisely seven to Beltran’s influence, to Beltran’s showing him how to use video to break down opposing pitchers to a depth Correa had never before imagined, to his identifying their tells. “Maybe they’re doing something with their glove that allows you to figure out if it’s a fastball or a curveball,” Correa said. “The biggest thing I’ve learned from him is to look at the bigger picture. It’s not only about playing defense and catching the ball and throwing the ball and hitting it. It’s way more than that. He showed me how to prepare the right way every single day to be successful out there.”

Might be another data point for your analysis.

sterling62Member since 2020
6 years ago

Good analysis and interesting article. The extent of the Astros cheating, even in lower leverage situations, shows how corrupt the players were. In addition to the leverage analysis by Jake, it should be noted that the Astros won the division by 21 games, so during the bulk of the banging scheme, the game itself was “low leverage” from the standpoint of winning the division. The only high leverage games for the Astros in 2017 were in the postseason, when they were 8-1 at home, and although apparently the banging scheme was not used, MLB claims they also cheated in the postseason. It would be helpful to know the extent and method of the cheating in the playoffs and World Series as well. Stealing one pitch in the ALCS or WS could have changed the outcome of the series. And an impactful stolen pitch did not need to be on a game winning hit. Simply fouling or taking a tough slider because they knew the pitch and drawing a walk or extending a pitcher may have changed the outcome of a game and a series.

Also, as analysts try to ascertain the relative benefit sign stealing gave to the Astros, any inefficiency in the process should not minimize the level of wrongdoing. They cheated whether it helped them immensely, slightly, or not at all.

gost1
6 years ago
Reply to  sterling62

I am curious to know your definition of corrupt, because it sounds harsh. If a Pitcher uses a foreign substance, the penalty is a 10-game suspension. If you knew the other teams’ hurler was using vasoline on his arm, or stick’ em on his ball cap, and imparting a spin which makes it impossible to hit; is that “corrupt”?

When this whole incident came up, I said it was the dumbest thing in the world to engage in it, because as a former player, it is NOT cut/dried whether it is even helpful to know the pitch. As a former player, not some Schmo who thinks he knows ANYthing about baseball — Phil Garner said Ray Knight was a Master. And the other Astros did NOT want to know the pitch. Of course being wrong screws with guys’ careers, just the same as if one could argue it benefitted a hitter; or more absurdly contended by Freddie Freeman that one outing against the Astros ruined the career of his friend.

The victimization in America and particularly against the Astros has reached outlandish proportions. Your own teams have stolen signs and used live-feed cameras (how about 1986 Torre’s Mets vs Astros?), weathervanes, towels in the bullpen, fans in the outfield with white gloves on …. When a team puts a sign down, it is their responsibility to make sure it’s a decoy.

If you’ve ever played baseball, you wouldn’t need any of this information!

Move on with your silly little lives. Don’t you have anythig better to do?! The 2019 Astros put up epic offensive numbers. The 2017 Astros were 31-9 to begin the season on the road, best since 1900. The team is gangbusters, and didn’t need this idiotic suggestion by Cora and Beltran in the first place. That is the real problem big markets have — they’re butthurt. The real test will be this year, and sadly for the opportunists, you’ve awoken a sleeping bear, who really took it easy on the league last year.

Punting off JD Davis, holding unanimous ROY down for S2, Tucker with nothing to prove in AAA; using Tyler White as DH; fillers Mayfield, Straw, Kemp, Stassi and 6 rookie pitchers.. 125 wRC+ and it wasn’t even close. Good luck to the rest of the league in 2020.

Honestly, the author should be ashamed. it was the flimsiest conjecture in the first place, and the follow up reads even weaker. “Might, May be, Who Knows: How do I have a Job?” should be the title.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  gost1

I dunno, as a former player, I never hit a home run on a pitch that wasn’t your typical 3-1, 2-0 fastball. I’d have to really think and count up hits on breaking balls that weren’t mistakes (at the high school/college level). You just get so much more crank in fastball counts.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  gost1

Is this satire? It hits all the high points:

-Shut up nerds, I played the game.
-Like cheating is a big deal anyway.
-Other people cheat too!
-They were so awesome they didn’t need the help.
-Did I say they didn’t need the help? I meant it doesn’t help anyway.
-Are we still talking about this? Why can’t you just move on.

And my personal favorite,

-An appeal to “victimization in America”

Ukranian to Vietnamese to French is back
6 years ago
Reply to  gost1

I’m interested in your definition of corruption because it sounds difficult. If the pitcher uses a foreign substance, the penalty is a 10-game suspension. If you know that another team’s storm used Vaseline in your hand or put it on the ball, and it spins, it makes it unpredictable; Is it “corruption”?

When all this happened, I said that the stupidest thing in the world was to join it, because as an old player it doesn’t cut / dry if it’s even useful. ” in this respect. As an old player, not some Schmo thinks he knows anything about baseball – Phil says Rai Knight is a master. And other Astros don’t want to know the field. Of course, you are wrong about your child’s career, just as she may think there is a problem with her. It’s more absurd to have a breakup with Freddie Freeman than a trip against the Astros that ruined his friend’s career.

Victims in the US, especially the Astros, were beaten. Your teams stole billboards and used cameras on live streams (what about 1986’s Torre ‘Metata vs Astros?), Veaters, cowhides, white-gloved outdoor court fans … When the team removed the panels, it was their responsibility was to ensure it was decoration.

If you’ve ever played baseball, you don’t need this information!

Navigate your stupid little life. You have nothing better to do? The 2019 Astros staged an epic attack. The Astros 2017 is September 31 for a season that starts on the road, preferably 1900. The team is a gangster, and in the first place, there is no need to hint at Core and Beltran. This is a real big market problem – it’s Buti. The real test will be this year, and unfortunately at bedtime, this is really easy for last year’s tournament.

He started with JD Davis, holding a certain ROIA for S2, Tucker has nothing to prove in AAA; The use of Vhite Tiler is DH; Maifield, Straw, Kemp, Stasi and 6 stones … 125, and it doesn’t close either. Good luck with the rest of the 2020 tournament.

To be honest, the author should be ashamed. It was the strongest wave in the first place, followed by the weakest. “Maybe, maybe, who knows: How to become a business?” It should be a title.

BrendanMcKayDylanWalshMember since 2018
6 years ago

The only thing worse than posting this idiocy once is posting it twice. The irony of you claiming other people need to get a life is thick…

Seuss2004Member since 2018
6 years ago

I have a sneaking suspicion that Meg had some input on the title? I believe this is the definition of “Using your powers for good”.

spudbeer
6 years ago

Were there players who consistently batted with little or no banging? One might assume the scheme was used by some players but not others and therefore the non-bangs shouldn’t be assumed to be part of the signal.

#KeepNotGraphs
6 years ago

This article had more discussion about banging than the top three Banknotes Harper articles combined.

scrap1ron
6 years ago

AJ Hinch is supposedly giving an interview on the MLB channel soon, should be interesting.

Exile in St. LouisMember since 2024
6 years ago

I’m fairly exhausted by this. I’m an Astro fan, I think the punishment is fair. I watched the end of the Blue Jays game. Do they bang or not on a cutter? I saw Osuna throw a 90mph cutter to Bregman that was center-cut, and got drilled for a triple. Could Juan Centeno even hear the bang with the crowd? I sure couldn’t with headphones on. I’m getting exhausted by claims that bad pitchers were run out of the league, and that the Dodgers would have won if the Astros didn’t cheat. 2 RUNS for 890 bangs!

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago

the little electric shock on his nipple though, I’m sure he felt that (KIDDING)

Exile in St. LouisMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

It’s like: have people watched Altuve hit? For nearly a decade, Astros fans have watched him get totally fooled by a pitch, only to adjust mid-swing and somehow get a piece. No good hitter in baseball takes as many bad swings as Altuve.

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago

In other words, he can’t hit until someone tells him what coming, then he turns into Babe Ruth!

free-range turducken
6 years ago

In other words, not a lot of buck for the bang.

atadamsMember since 2019
6 years ago

This is fantastic work by Jake Mailhot. The hope that we would see analyses like this was one of the things that drove me through the tedium of logging 8,200+ pitches. Thanks, Jake!

atadamsMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  atadams

I didn’t make it clear in my post. I’m Tony Adams, the guy with no life who logged all the Astros’ bangs.

ScottyBMember since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  atadams

Thank you Tony for your contributions!!!!

atadamsMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  ScottyB

I wish none of this had ever happened — but it did. The Astros cheated. At least we can try to learn something from it.

insidb
6 years ago

Considering that the data can’t really account for defense, would it be helpful to look at hit expectancy in BBE?

If several of these ABs resulted in scorchers to the Jean Segura’s of the world, the positive impact would appear diminished.

If the xBA on those ABs are .200-.300 high than average, some of the luck can be washed out of the analysis.

zobp
6 years ago

Although it would be impossible to find, a good control group would be games where it was known that a pitcher was tipping his pitches. Even with this information, batters do not always get a hit, or sometimes they get fooled. My suspicion is that it would be at the same rates as the above data. Since baseball is a game of failure, any slight uptick still produces meaningful changes at the macro level.

CalvoMember since 2016
6 years ago

Not sure if this is question is answered already: If a particular at-bat includes banging for a breaking pitch, isn’t it safe to assume that the hitter was at least generally aware that a fastball was coming where there was no banging?

Does that increase the sample size and change the results of the performance boost?

Ben Cerutti
6 years ago

I’d love to see if anyone (does anyone know if someone has taken the time to do this?) has looked at a players wOBA or wRC+ on PAs that end in a ‘bang bang’ on a can?

CalvoMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Ben Cerutti

Yeah, or PAs where there is a bang at all during the PA.

User79
6 years ago

Wouldn’t we need to compare that last chart with another one showing run values created in at-bats with no bangs? Or at-bats from the year before? That way we have a reference to show the improvement (or lack thereof). Or maybe I don’t quite understand how run values are calculated.

Luy
6 years ago

I know what I’m about to say is a logical fallacy… but forgive me if I don’t take an Astros fans’s word for it, when he says the Astros didn’t benefit from the banging scheme.
It’s really hard for me to imagine a situation where every decision in compiling data or setting up the analysis was made neutrally, rather than in the hope of defending his team.

trumpetofdoom
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

The site offers no judgment as to whether or not the team benefited, merely “here are the pitches thrown to Astros hitters, these are the ones that were banged on, these are the results”. And you can check that for yourself.

tung_twista
6 years ago

Something is seriously wrong with that last table.
Or it is misleading at the least.
For example, Marwin Gonzalez in 2017 had a wrc+ 144 season with 28 batting runs.
You are telling me he had -6 runs in PAs with banging
while +34 runs in PAs without them?
It’s theoretically possible but highly unlikely.

dodgerdawg
6 years ago

Two major comments on this story:

1. Why isn’t anyone doing this for their post season games? Why JUST the regular season?

2. No banging has just as much impact on things as that was one of the signs. It was either a bang or a no bang and both communicated what to expect from the pitcher. Maybe I missed something in the article but it seems like you are not taking this into account at all, which would make your data look like the sign stealing was MUCH less effective than it actually was.

losdiego
6 years ago
Reply to  dodgerdawg

This is what I’ve been thinking too…the absence of a bang generally indicates fastball. Knowing the pitch you’re getting is not a breaking ball would be just as valuable. This is the problem with trying to understand how much value stealing signs added, there’s just no good way to properly measure it because every analysis I’ve seen looks only at the banging noises, but that doesn’t cover everything.

There’s just no good way to quantify how much it actually helped.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  Jake Mailhot

There are numerous examples of PA where there were one or more bangs, but several pitches that were breaking balls, but no bangs. There are also PA where there were nothing but breaking balls, and no bangs. In these cases, the batter might have chosen not to be signaled, but since he was signaled in other PA in the same game, this doesn’t seem very likely to me.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  dodgerdawg

The data indicate that no bang was associated with a breaking ball a large proportion of the time. One or more bangs was associated with a breaking ball most of the time, as the article notes, but when the batter hears no bang (and is he sure there is no bang, and not just that he doesn’t hear it?), it could very well be a breaking ball, so if he assumes fastball, he stands a good chance of being hurt, not helped.

WARrior
6 years ago

The data I’ve looked at show a poor correlation between number of bangs and the type of pitch. E.g., on 6/17/17 (and this is only one example of many):

2B:FB9, CR12, SL2
3B: FB3, CR3, SL2
4B: FB4
5B: FB

where 2B is two bangs, 3B three bangs, etc.; FB, fastball; CR, curve, SL, slider.

Looking at one period comprising about 30% of the total :

Balls: 128
Strikes/swinging: 83/26
Fouls: 54
HBP: 1
BIP/H: 55/15 (including 3 2B, 2 HR)

The overall contact rate on tipped pitches was 80.7%. League average was 77.5% in 2017, but for the Astros team, it was 80.2%. You would expect it to be a little higher at home than on the road, even without the sign stealing. BABIP is actually lower than league or season Astors average.

I also looked at one player in toto, Bregman:

Balls: 56
Strike/SW: 29/5
Fouls: 12
BIP/H: 29/14

His contact rate on tipped pitches was 89.1%, a little higher than his rate for the entire season (85.7%). His BABIP (1 HR removed) was .464, which is a lot higher than his seasonal average: .311, including .300 at home, and .320 on the road. That would be very suggestive, except that the sample size is so small.

But a lot questions are raised, particularly, why were so few pitches tipped? Was it because they weren’t sure of the catcher’s sign much of the time? They couldn’t go through the decoding process and get the information to the trash can banger soon enough? Were they using another system along with the banging, maybe so the other team wouldn’t catch on to what the banging meant? Did batters tell them they didn’t want to be tipped some of the time? The pattern of tipping seems to be more or less random, except that some players definitely were tipped more than others, which seems to point to some choice on the part of the hitters. But if they were using other signaling systems than banging, some batters might have indicated they preferred another system to banging.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

I should have added that most FB came with no bang, so no bang was a good FB signal. But when one or more bangs did occur, they did not discriminate well between FB and breaking ball.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

Have to modify that. No bang was not a good FB signal. One or more bangs usually meant a breaking ball, as the article says, but no bang did not discriminate well between fastball and breaking ball. To the extent that a batter assumed no bang meant fastball, he could be hurt by the fact that a large proportion of the time it was in fact a breaking ball.

evo34Member since 2023
6 years ago

This is good stuff. Not sure the samples are large enough to be splitting them by leverage, though.

I would be interested to know if certain players were more consistently receiving help than others. This could be used to demonstrate that these players were actively seeking the illegal assistance, as opposed to just being on a team that was running the scheme.

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  evo34

It’s pretty clear that some players were signaled far more than others, and the difference can’t all be ascribed to more breaking balls.

evo34Member since 2023
6 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

I haven’t seen anything on the topic of bpp (bangs per player) yet. Link?

WARrior
6 years ago
Reply to  evo34

The % of bangs different players received has been reported in stories about Adams’s data. E.g., Altuve had bangs associated with < 3% of his pitches, while Bregman was about 16%, and Gonzalez about 25%.

cpinyan
6 years ago

My takeaway is that Yuli Gurriel is easily the quickest thinking Astro.

FedericoMember since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  cpinyan

Which is already a surprising finding, in and of itself

res
6 years ago

Check out Jared Diamonds piece in the WSJ he says they were cheating on the road also.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  res

yep, and the way hinch answered the buzzer question or lack thereof pretty much tells everyone they were using buzzers in years after. sad. manfred has lost full control. needs to resign.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago

after wsj article came out that basically was the opposite of mlb findings. manfred was caught in a total coverup. needs to resign effective immediately in order for the mlb to retain some of the very little credibility it has remaining.

also add in the wilpon disaster this week, he has lost institutional control, and very few people still have confidence in him. hes been a failure. SAD to watch.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

If that report is accurate, Manfred is the Emperor with No Clothes. Blaming Hinch (for what? not telling his boss to f_ck himself?) and leaving those front office cheaters in place tells you everything you need to know.

johansantana17Member since 2026
6 years ago

Fuck these clowns

scrap1ron
6 years ago

It ain’t easy being cheesy.

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago

In high leverage situations the batters are far more likely to be facing the better pitchers (closers, Setupmen, lefty specialist if lefthanded, fireman, dominant starters in a close low scoring game)! So they would have likely had a negative run expectancy regardless. I’ll bet it was less negative than usual implying they got a benefit!

CalvoMember since 2016
6 years ago

Seems like there is a lot more to this story that isn’t being talked about.