Which Players Might Have Benefited from the Astros’ Sign-Stealing?

It’s been more than two weeks since the Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich’s bombshell report at The Athletic, which revealed a massive sign-stealing scandal implemented by the Houston Astros beginning in 2017. Since then, we’ve seen reports that the official investigation launched by Major League Baseball has confirmed the system as described by Mike Fiers in that original report; they are continuing to look into other ways the Astros may have cheated during the 2017 postseason and beyond. Whether the Astros were using a modified method on the road relying on “buzzers,” as some have speculated, has yet to be confirmed.

What we do know is that the Astros broke the rules by using technology to steal signs in real-time. Members of Houston’s front office and coaching staff could face significant penalties, and with Alex Cora and Carlos Beltrán implicated as sign-stealing ringleaders, there could be impacts felt in organizations beyond Houston. It remains to be seen just how severe the punishment will be — though our own Craig Edwards argued last week that they could be quite severe indeed — and if any players are caught up in the fallout.

Last week, I took an initial look at whether or not the on-field value of the Astros sign-stealing scheme could be parsed out in the data. Between the changing roster, the changing ball, and the at times non-linear effect of coaching and player development, there was a lot of noise in the data. At a broad level, it’s hard to make any conclusive statements about the specific effects of the Astros sign-stealing, though as I noted, the fact that the team persisted in the practice suggests they believed they derived an appreciable benefit from it. On Friday, two more attempts to answer that same question were made.

Over at The Ringer, Ben Lindbergh concluded:

“Knowing the next pitch just has to help, right? But no matter how we slice and dice the data, the statistical case is less compelling than it would be if sign-stealing made hitting as simple as it seems like it should. Great as the Astros were at the plate in 2017, the most fascinating aspect of their sign-stealing scandal is that it didn’t make them even better.”

Rob Arthur was a little more confident in his conclusions in a piece for Baseball Prospectus:

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“We can tentatively conclude that their sign stealing probably had a major impact on the team’s plate discipline numbers. This was not innocent cheating that barely affected the game; according to the available data, it may have yielded an unprecedented improvement in the Astros’ ability to make contact and lay off outside pitches, helping to turn a talented lineup into one of the best-hitting teams of all time.”

In my previous piece, I landed somewhere in between these two positions: sign-stealing probably had an impact, but it was nearly impossible to determine the exact benefit at a team level due to all the noise. But what happens if we drill down to the per-pitch level, as I did with the run expectancy (RE288) data in my article last week, and this time focus on individual players?

Before we get to the analysis of individual players, I’d like to present some adjusted data from my analysis last week based on the sign-stealing timeframe Arthur proposed in his article. He scanned the TV broadcasts for the telltale audio cues created by banging a trash can and found that the Astros likely began using their sign-stealing system around May 19. With that date in mind, here are the Astros’ adjusted run values against the three major pitch types while at home in 2017. (Note, because we’re working with different sample sizes, I’ve scaled the run values to standardize the values per 100 pitches.)

Astros Pitch Type Run Values At Home
Year Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
2017 – Pre 5/19 -0.76 -1.34 -2.32
2017 – Post 5/19 -0.65 -0.56 -0.91
Change 0.11 0.78 1.41
Take Runs
2017 – Pre 5/19 1.07 1.26 1.77
2017 – Post 5/19 1.19 1.36 1.54
Change 0.12 0.10 -0.23
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

And here’s a table comparing home performance against away performance after May 19.

Astros Pitch Type Run Values Home/Away Split
Year Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
2017 – Home -0.65 -0.56 -0.91
2017 – Away 0.37 0.07 -1.11
Difference -1.02 -0.63 0.20
Take Runs
2017 – Home 1.19 1.36 1.54
2017 – Away 1.15 0.87 1.29
Difference 0.04 0.49 0.25
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

If we just focus on 2017 and compare the Astros performance before and after the presumed May 19 start date, we can see that they did indeed see a big boost after implementing their trash can system. They saw better results at home against every pitch type, whether or not they swung. And when we compare their home splits against their road performance, we can see that they performed better at home when taking pitches. Looking at the data this way removes some of the noise that was complicating my previous analysis — we don’t have to worry about the change in talent from 2016 to 2017. It also supports the Arthur’s conclusions; the Astros gained a significant advantage at home after implementing their sign-stealing system. I estimate its total cumulative value at somewhere around five wins.

With that out of the way, let’s turn our attention to a few individual players. I won’t go through the entire Astros lineup. Instead I’ll focus on a couple of key players suspected to have been using the sign-stealing system. In their non-comprehensive video review from 2017 for Effectively Wild, Lindbergh and ESPN’s Sam Miller found at least 10 different hitters using the sign-stealing system, including almost all of those with regular playing time. There has been also video evidence of the scheme posted various places, but no official or confirmed list of the players who participated has yet been released, meaning this list could shift as MLB completes its investigation. With that in mind, let’s take a look at a few of the Astros players who have been identified as possible beneficiaries of Houston’s system:

José Altuve

Jose Altuvé Pitch Type Run Values 2017
José Altuve Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 -1.34 -5.61 -6.5
Home – Post 5/19 -1.23 1.07 4.24
Away – Post 5/19 0.83 2.15 3.5
Take Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 0.11 -0.19 1.05
Home – Post 5/19 1.53 0.77 3.16
Away – Post 5/19 2.05 0.94 0.92
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

José Altuve improved across the board when batting in Minute Maid Park after May 19. But when we take into account his performance on the road, one thing really stands out; his results against offspeed pitches. His ability to recognize and either take or punish offspeed pitches really took off at home after May 19. As a result, his expected wOBA against offspeed pitches increased from .274 to .363.

Alex Bregman

Alex Bregman Pitch Type Run Values 2017
Alex Bregman Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 -1.25 -3.77 -6.46
Home – Post 5/19 -1.42 0.48 -3.26
Away – Post 5/19 1.44 -0.12 -3.67
Take Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 1.03 0.85 1.31
Home – Post 5/19 1.84 2.39 2.41
Away – Post 5/19 1.13 1.04 1.37
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

Like Altuve, Alex Bregman improved almost across the board after May 19, both home and away. But he saw improvements against all pitch types at home that weren’t necessarily mirrored on the road. He really benefited when taking pitches, particularly those thrown out of the zone. This was Bregman’s first full year in the majors, so it’s possible he was still making adjustments to major league pitching. Prior to May 19, he was running an 18.1% strikeout rate, lower than what he posted in his rookie season in 2016, but much higher than his minor league strikeout rates (though again, the quality of pitching he saw relative to that in the minors presumably also improved). After May 19, his strikeout rate dropped to 14.6%, and his chase rate and swinging strike rate saw similar drops.

Carlos Correa

Carlos Correa Pitch Type Run Values 2017
Carlos Correa Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 2.13 0.46 -3.33
Home – Post 5/19 0.54 0.65 3.27
Away – Post 5/19 2.56 1.23 -2.76
Take Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 0.13 1.86 3.20
Home – Post 5/19 1.62 1.39 -0.47
Away – Post 5/19 0.79 0.81 0.92
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

Carlos Correa’s results weren’t nearly as straightforward as Altuve’s or Bregman’s. He saw some improvement in some aspects of his game, but also developed struggles in others. The two aspects that really stand out are his swings against offspeed pitches and his fastball takes. When swinging at offspeed pitches, Correa scuffled prior to May 19 and on the road, but he crushed offspeed pitches at home. He posted a .452 expected wOBA on contact against offspeed pitches after the sign-stealing system was implemented, a 73 point improvement over what he had posted before then.

Evan Gattis

Evan Gattis Pitch Type Run Values 2017
Evan Gattis Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 -0.51 3.54 -6.50
Home – Post 5/19 -1.36 -0.33 -2.50
Away – Post 5/19 3.83 -1.31 -7.91
Take Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 1.51 -0.81 1.90
Home – Post 5/19 1.07 0.64 1.25
Away – Post 5/19 0.75 0.86 -2.37
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

Like Correa, Evan Gattis‘ results are a little all over the place, though he did enjoy the same big improvements when swinging at offspeed pitches. He may have also benefited when watching breaking balls and offspeed pitches go by.

Carlos Beltrán

Evan Gattis Pitch Type Run Values 2017
Carlos Beltrán Fastball Breaking Offspeed
Swing Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 -1.76 -6.25 5.16
Home – Post 5/19 -1.78 -3.08 -2.79
Away – Post 5/19 -1.68 -1.82 -1.79
Take Runs
Home – Pre 5/19 1.19 1.10 0.73
Home – Post 5/19 1.28 0.53 0.68
Away – Post 5/19 1.07 0.34 1.71
SOURCE: Baseball Savant
Pitch Values scaled to per 100 pitches.

Despite being named as one of the instigators of the sign-stealing scheme, Beltrán’s results don’t really point to him having derived any benefit from the system. He got a little better at taking fastballs but no other parts of his approach at the plate really stand out. He was in the final season of his long career, so it’s possible no amount of forewarning of the pitch type could have helped combat the effects of aging.

Based on this second look at the data, we can probably determine the true benefit gained by the Astros on a team level. But when we begin digging into how individual players benefited, each player seems to have responded differently. Some improved across the board, while others improved against certain pitch types. And then there were players like Gattis and Beltrán who didn’t seem to improve in any one area. That’s to be expected. Not every batter will be well equipped to put the knowledge of which pitch is coming into action. Lindbergh touched on this idea towards the end of his article:

“Major league hitters don’t have superhuman reflexes. What they have is learned perceptual skills, honed through picking up patterns over thousands and thousands of pitches. Simply telling them which pitch is coming, instead of making their brains work for it, sounds like it would simply allow them to skip a step and be even better. But disrupting their regular process might make them worse.”

Once Major League Baseball concludes its investigation, we may have a more complete (and accurate) list of the players involved, though Rob Manfred may choose to keep that information private. Until the official investigation is closed, the best we can do is make educated guesses about which of these players benefited from the sign-stealing system, and by how much. This glimpse at the individual results gives a better idea of which players might have benefited from sign-stealing and which ones seem to have been unable to utilize it to the fullest extent. Beyond Bregman’s comprehensive improvement — which may have been him simply adjusting to major league pitching — most of the gains we see above aren’t as significant as we might expect, though their aggregate effect is notable. As Jeff Sullivan pointed out back in 2017, the Astros were projected to have a good lineup before the season even started. Some of the benefits of the sign-stealing system were bound to be marginal because of that baseline talent level. But when you have an organizational culture that values the cumulative effects of many marginal improvements, implementing a sign-stealing system to help your batters gain an edge, even a small one, might be just what you’re looking for.





Jake Mailhot is a contributor to FanGraphs. A long-suffering Mariners fan, he also writes about them for Lookout Landing. Follow him on BlueSky @jakemailhot.

77 Comments
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NathanMember since 2018
6 years ago

Did Springer not have much of a difference? Isn’t he rumored to be one of the ones who used the system extensively?

archju01
6 years ago

Could you take each one of these 10 guys, calculate the similarity scores among all players of the same ages in 2017, and then check to see how each of the 10 performs against their most similar batter pre/post May?

computersBaseball
6 years ago

The gained 5 wins across like 60 games? I wonder if Ben Lindbergh thinks that is significant.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

You could divide that result in half and it would still be plenty to incentivize those with no morals.

The Duke
6 years ago

That was my reaction. Holy moly. That’s huge. I hope manfred reads fangraphs. The dodgers and all the AL playoff teams must be furious. And it just makes the Nationals victory so much sweeter

SucramRenrutMember since 2017
6 years ago

Anecdotally, this would seem to explain some of Altuve and Bregman’s seemingly preternatural ability to jump on and punish high fastballs, particularly as smaller guys.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  SucramRenrut

Hey now!

The man’s appropriate title is “2017 AL MVP Jose Altuve”!

Don’t you forget it!

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

1 thing that is kind of interesting. Would have thought that the sign stealing concept would help the team steal bases far better than normal…. Definitely not the case as they were right at league average the last 3 years….

greenaway55Member since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Why bother running when your batters are getting such a boost at the plate though?

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  greenaway55

I wasn’t going off of # of steals, but rather the SB %. They were slightly below average in steal attempts.

Sonny LMember since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I tried to look at it game but game using a mistaken August date. They improved slightly on SB% of 2B but ran less frequently. But my start date was wrong so it shouldn’t matter.

Bron
6 years ago

Nice work! I’d be interested to know how the percentage of swings vs takes for the individual players varied for each pitch type before and after 5/19.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago

Ban these players for life. Plus whoever else cheated, this is disgusting.

greenaway55Member since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

What a great opportunity for sponsored giveaways when the Astros come to town though. Can you imagine LA Waste Management handing out trashcans to all fans for a Dodgers-Astros series in Chavez Ravine next year? Marketing gold, baby.

abgb123
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

You want them to be banned for life? For using electronic devices to steal signs? Let’s not forget that stealing signs in MLB isn’t against the rules, just the use of the electronic devices. This isn’t exactly a capital offense and if the rumors are correct and this behavior is wide spread and you are going to ban 3 of the top 25 players in baseball plus who knows whoever else on the team you would have to apply the same punishment to future cases. Seems like a recipe for self implosion.
I could see something like the penalty the RedSox received in 2016 or worse case what the NFL gave the Saints for the head hunting case. I would wager that no one player gets suspended for more then 15 games but more likely no player is suspended. What we will likely see is that ownership-front office-management take the brunt of this in fines, draft pick loss, in’t money loss, suspensions and so on but life bans are usually reserved for those that don’t cooperate.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  abgb123

If they don’t bring the house down on these players and ban them for life along with the execs , scouts, analysts and all who were involved in this scheme…..mlb will lose a ton of fans and will lose a ton of credibility.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Gotta say, “for life” is unfair.

Obviously, it has to be more than what steroid users get…but let’s be fairly lenient.

100 games a piece, for anyone who did it after Boston got popped.

Any further infraction is permanent.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago

Should be more than 100 games. This is an order of magnitude worse than someone getting popped for steroids. That discourages no one from cheating. Just like steroids punishment don’t stop players. 100 games is nothing.

Connor Grey
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

You seriously never want to see Jose Altuve ever play again? How is that good for baseball? It’s absolute bullshit what they did but this isn’t the friggin Black Sox scandal

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  Connor Grey

It’s much worse, you mean, right? They scammed the 2017 World Series and undoubtedly perfected the system which helped them in 2018 and 2019.

At this point it’s hard to know if these players are really that good. How much of their production is legit ?

Each one should have to apologize in writing with a full allocution of their deeds and perhaps rolling 100 games suspensions – you can’t suspend the whole astros squad at once

Hinch and luhnow need to be taken out. Not sure about Cora or Beltran until we see some facts.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  Connor Grey

No I don’t want to see him play again, Guy is a fraud and cheater. This is much worse than blacksox scandal.

cs3
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

The Guru, you’re just delusional. There is absolutely zero chance that any player gets a lifetime ban. It’s pretty likely that no players even get suspended at all.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  cs3

I’m delusional? reading the comments, by far the majority of the comments is people want them banned from the game.

fredsbankMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

The players, the staff, the executives, the owner, everybody. Salt the earth in Houston.

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago

This is great work…but this just scratches the surface and the analysis could be taken to a whole other level with more manpower. The whole fg team should be on this togeth and divide up different tasks to tackle this cheating.

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Here here

HandsomeBoyModel
6 years ago

All these players are frauds.

josechell
6 years ago

I don’t think it’s going to happen, but if Altuve is proven to had or have been cheating then you have to consider removing his 2017 AL MVP award

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  josechell

And ban him from the game.

snood
6 years ago
Reply to  josechell

Hard to worry about the MVP award when the whole friggin’ World Series might need an asterisk.

fredsbankMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  josechell

“consider” ???

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

For me, this cheating is an order of magnitude (or 2) worse than steroids. Absolutely disgusting, and the modern “business” of baseball (barf) has brought us here.

Also getting very tired of the yawns & suggestions that everyone is doing it from some people including some writers here. Nicely echoing the takes from fans of the Astros team and front office clowns (I met Kevin Goldstein in 1999 when he was at BP — was not impressed then either, and I hope he and others face bans).

If you have evidence of other teams cheating, please do bring it on. Right now the evidence in front of us is clearly pointing at one team. And it’s really not fine.

rustydudeMember since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

2 orders of magnitude = 100 times worse. I’m pretty good at math.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

I didn’t think there was any question whether a hitter benefits from knowing what pitch is coming. This is an area where having played the game helps — of course it helps, ask anyone who knows which end of a bat to hold! Pitching without the element of deception creates something more like organized batting practice than baseball. I like spreadsheets too, but if you want to know if the earth still orbits the sun, you can just look up and save yourself a lot of work.

Edited to clarify – I love this amazing article. The only flaw is it is too respectful towards those who question the efficacy of sign-stealing, which is about thisclose to trolling.

csw117
6 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

If you just look up, you’ll assume the sun orbits the Earth, just as everyone did before scientists decided to, you know, analyse the data. That analogy is as dead wrong as it’s possible to be.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  csw117

As a matter of fact, scientists managed to accrue a TON of data “proving” the Earth orbited around the Sun.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

Data tends to reflect its collector doesn’t it?

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  csw117

These are excellent points! Still, my metaphor was based on a modern, heliocentric understanding of the solar system. Not using “looking up” for foundational knowledge of what happens but just confirming no catastrophic changes. I will admit the word “still” is doing a lot of work there for a mid-sentence, buried-clause adverb.

scrap1ron
6 years ago

If it is proven that the Astros cheated as charged, then the end results of these actions is really irrelevant as far as their punishment goes. Considering player performance variations can this be attributed to natural improvement or cheating, hard to say isn’t it?

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  scrap1ron

They should be shamed from ever stepping in ballpark ever again. Whoever cheated should be gone. I don’t care who or what team. They are gone and banned. Period.

gbekiarisMember since 2021
6 years ago

In your group analysis, you note that the Astros created more take runs at home. How many more take runs would we expect them to create just by virtue of being the home team?

Even if you know what pitch is coming, you still never have location. I would say that is a larger factor in preventing sign-stealing from being foolproof than “disrupting their regular process.”

Additionally, the pre-5/19 stats are pretty small samples. Altuve, Bregman, Gattis, and Beltran all had wild numbers against offspeed pitches in both directions. Surely, they were bound to come back to earth. A more effective method might be to compare their performance post-sign-stealing to their expected run values against those pitch types?

yeahnah
6 years ago
Reply to  gbekiaris

The key to good offspeed pitches is that they look like a strike for long enough that the batter is convinced to swing at the pitch. Pitchers are generally trying to put offspeed pitches below the zone and breaking pitches below/outside.

As a hitter, if I know a changeup is coming and I see a pitch out of the hand that looks to be a low fastball, I’m leaving the bat on the shoulder and watching that thing drop out of the zone. Same with a slider, if it starts on the outside half of the plate, I can be fairly certain that it’ll end out of the strike zone.

orbitstolesignstoo
6 years ago

Amazing how your article already assumes all the allegations are true and proven. MLB has just started its investigation and dont forget they were already investigated previously and MLB didnt find anything.

Here is what we do know. Sign stealing without surveillance equipment is legal and done frequently. The Astros dont hide that they look for pitch tipping and looking for signs. That’s baseball and it is true that most if not all teams have players that do it. If no one did it then pitchers and catchers would just have one set of signs for games but they dont. They regularly change things up because it’s part of the game.

Many of the Astros players have done just as good or better on the road the last few years. Were they installing cameras all over MLB parks too?

For those that think this is why they won the last 3 years you have probably not watched their games. They have had one of the best starting rotations and bullpens each of the last 3 years. Winning tends to happen when you stop the other team from scoring.

The Astros have mastered statistical analysis. They use iPads before and after at bats to learn pitching trends and to evaluate pitchers. That’s not illegal and any team can and should do it. So here is food for thought. What if they, through video analysis of a pitcher’s previous games, learned a “tip” the pitcher does. Then in the game they watch the pitcher and whistle or bang or put out a smoke signal to notify their guy that an offspeed pitch is coming…does that make them cheaters? No…it is baseball just like researching a batter’s tendency to pull the ball and implementing a shift.

These are all minor actions that have minimal impact on games. Players still have to play and it’s a hard game no matter what info you have in advance.

Some here are ready to ban these players for these things and discount the hard work they put in each season….with no real proof. All we’ve actually seen is clips with audio and video of bangs and whistles but no indication of whether those came from the dugout or not and if they did find a tip or get signs you dont know if it was using cameras.

Maybe your next article is about Orbit, the Astos mascot, pretending to be the batboy for the opposing team, sitting in the visitor dugout calling out each pitch.

brunoMember since 2025
6 years ago

There is proof. They cheated. And the punishment must be severe. I have spoken.

orbitstolesignstoo
6 years ago
Reply to  bruno

Please share the facts that have you so convinced.

rainmaker42
6 years ago

Fact- Your mother is a hamster

orbitstolesignstoo
6 years ago

One more bit of info no one seems to consider in this whole mess…one of the writers that released the story that got this rolling is a former Astros beat writer that accused the team of trying to get him fired. Then he went to work for the Red Sox and…got fired. Then he worked with former (fired, released and non tendered) Astos employees to write the story. That’s laughable.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

lol.

Ok, Luhnow.

The Duke
6 years ago

I did not know Ken rosenthal was an Astros and Red Sox beat writer. The things you learn on fangraphs

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

lol.

Ok, Luhnow.

(Ah, damn – this was supposed to be a reply to the SECOND pathetic, unhinged rant from Luhnow’s burner! Damn WP comments!)

orbitstolesignstoo
6 years ago

Mike Fiars? Is that you???

Connor Grey
6 years ago

If you don’t consider the Farquhar video proof then I don’t know what will convince you.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

Friend, I have written my share of dumb comments here too, but none of them were this long. Just be more efficient?

fredsbankMember since 2020
6 years ago

Found the guy who was banging trashcans.

London Yank
6 years ago

Will this impact Beltran’s HOF votes? Voters who consider PED usage a disqualifying offence, ought to consider this to be as well.

snood
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

The “integrity, sportsmanship, character” part of the voting criteria should be a huge impediment if any HoF candidates are proven to know about this scheme.

(and of course if MLB drops the banhammer on any players, they’d be outright ineligible for election)

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

Potentially yes. Nothing about Beltran has been proven. But Beltran has unequivocally said he was not involved. If it ends up that he was, then I think his HOF chances with the writers are over.

And frankly, how is it possible to sit in the dugout and not know what was going on? I can’t see how he ends up looking good here

Demiurge
6 years ago

This was, by definition, only “cheating” if you agree with the technology exception. Teams use signs to foil the offense. The signs are out there to be read. If you don’t conceal your signs well then you open an advantage to your opponent – in this case, the Astros. If the league protected their signs even remotely well then the Astros wouldn’t have been able to exploit them via their system. Lifetime bans? Draft penalties? Some of you people sound like children.

The only component of the rules that was broken was the use of technology which isn’t even a terribly rational exception to begin with. A guy standing on 2nd base who knows the signs can also communicate them to his batter in real time. Technology is just an enhancement of an advantage your opponent has already conceded through sloppiness.

Unless you think baseball is supposed to be a game where the batter should never have any inkling of what’s coming. That seems odd as baseball theory, both on sites like this and in the minds of players themselves, is all-consumed with the picking-up on of patterns to gain an advantage. One such pattern: putting one finger down for fastball. The Astros, unwittingly, may have just made the league better.

Not to mention probably every team is scheming to do things like this all the time and some have – perhaps not all of them are using cameras, but they’re likely thinking of ways they can. The Astros just did it well. Shit, they didn’t even do it that well and yet most of you are only hearing about it two years later.

They exploited their opponents through really simple means and broke some rule of debatable merit. Punishment may be in order, but some of you seem to think something truly draconian should be in order. And I’ve seen some people even type about morality. Really? If you think there is anything even close to a moral component to this scandal then you really need a college education. Grow up.

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  Demiurge

Hmm, pretty sure cheating vs not-cheating doesn’t depend on whether the accused (or anyone else) agrees with the rule in question.

“Technology is just an enhancement of an advantage your opponent has already conceded through sloppiness.”

I’ll concede that there is an element of sloppiness to not picking up on the fact that there’s a loud bang emanating from the home dugout before every offspeed pitch, but there’s nothing sloppy, and certainly nothing conceded, about assuming that with no opponent sight-line to the catcher’s signs, opponent cannot see the signs.

I for one am pretty happy with drawing a hard distinction between the eye of the human on second base and a hidden-camera/wifi system.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  Demiurge

Found the front office goon! Glad you got a few hours off for holiday time… Now go iron your khaki pants and celebrate underpaying some teenagers!

P.S. Re: your last sentence, I was the one who wrote about morals, and you definitely don’t want to get in a degree-measuring contest with me (or Obama, with whom I have two in common).

yorobertMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  Demiurge

Please, enough with the laughable attempts to minimize and rationalize truly deplorable and indefensible behavior by an organization that has, top to bottom, actively pursued corrupt measures at the expense of all other teams, all baseball fans, and of the game of baseball itself. “Its only cheating if you agree with the technology exception”…really? No, its cheating even if you disagree with the rule, which has 100% support. Has anyone said “No, let’s make cheating ability a big part of success in MLB!”

And yes, this is about morality. It is disgusting that so many people would go along with this on the Astros, top to bottom . And it doesn’t matter who exposes the Astros, or their motives, only whether it is true or not.

There will be a huge price to be paid, however-the players involved will never again have their careers considered without this scandal, and their willingness to go along with it, being mentioned prominently. I will never feel sorry for their whining about this never being forgotten-it will be well deserved.

I’ve lived and breathed baseball for decades, but if MLB doesn’t make a statement that “it doesn’t pay to cheat”, especially on an organizational level, I’m not sure I’ll be on board any longer with this game. However, I believe this issue is actually more far more important than you accuse others of claiming it is-when it comes to both the long-term future of and public perception of MLB, they are circling the drain. MLB needs to make a strong and definitive statement to everyone-teams, fans, outside observers-about what it claims to be, and what its core principles are. Bring down your hammer, Thor!

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  yorobert

Great post. Couldnt agree more. Mlb must make a statement and ban everyone for life that cheated. They are losing a ton of fans and credibility if they’d dont.

Mlb is getting destroyed by weak leadership. Sad for us fans. Bill baer laid it out best.

These are just the issues/scandals in MLB since October.

– Manfred says owners won’t make concessions for labor peace

– MLB wants to contract 42 minor league teams

– MLB has been either/both at times ignorant and misleading about manufacturing of baseballs

– Rawlings (owned by MLB) may have misled customers buying memorabilia baseballs

– Astros execs and numerous players in cheating scandal in which electronically stole signs in 2017 and won World Series at the direction of at least one front office member.

– Former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman taunted female reporters by yelling support of player who had been suspended for domestic violence

This is on top of preexisting stuff like MLB lobbying Congress so they can continue massively underpaying minor leaguers, gambling immersion …

Just to add more stuff to this: increased prevalence of tanking, MLB using indy league players as guinea pigs for rules testing, stagnant free agency and hints of collusion even by gm of a team, QO system that makes free agents more expensive, competitive balance tax that acts as de facto salary cap. Orioles cutting a player who posted 4 war for being too good as they are trying to tank.

No free Market at 26 teams are trying to lose.

Angels/Skaggs/opiates, Verlander tried to bar a BBWAA credentialed journalist from clubhouse access, Jason Vargas threatened journalist and Mickey Callaway tried to have writer thrown out of clubhouse…

This doesn’t even include the worst deal in sports history, mlbam deal that basically muzzles and acts as the gestapo for anyone that wants to post or see mlb highlights and blacks out any fan trying watch their fav team.

SAD

Connor Grey
6 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Jason Vargas? Seriously? How should they go about fixing that “issue“, banning him for life too?

brunoMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Demiurge

This is all gibberish.

esotericcd
6 years ago
Reply to  Demiurge

If Lucifer had written a comment on a baseball website, it would have read like this. And I mean that in the sense that it completely, arrogantly, high-handedly tosses away rules that are actual rules by saying “well it’s a rule I think is dumb, so let’s break it and be legends” and then goes on to castigate all the other fools who think that playing by the rules matters, and then further moves into self-congratulatory territory by saying “hey, the Astros made baseball BETTER” by wantonly cheating for years and years in contravention of the rules. Give in to temptation! Feel how good it is!

The only thing missing from this post is an invocation of the Nietzschean ‘Superman’ as justification.

Demiurge
6 years ago
Reply to  esotericcd

Deciphering an opponent’s signs then using that knowledge to one’s own advantage is not cheating. Having a hired tough club Nancy Kerrigan’s leg is cheating. Bribing someone like an opposing player or an umpire is cheating. Why have signs in the first place? Only if you’re trying to conceal a stratagem. If you don’t conceal it well, that’s on you.

Also, the very existence of a rule does not make it legitimate. Didn’t everyone wring their hands in October when the running lane rule was invoked against Turner and the Nationals. No one likes that one. Do I even need to bring in an example like segregation to prove my point? Do you really think a rule legitimizes itself by its mere existence?

And again, if you think there’s any moral component to this scandal then you just aren’t very intelligent. This is a game. A game involving strategy. Cheating, at best, is unethical. Morality has zero to do with it. No one’s personal rights or well-being are on the line here. Don’t be ridiculous.

Rowdy McFlowdy
6 years ago

This whole thing has created a situation where innocent players are going to be tainted for life because of irresponsible psuedo journalism like this. We still do not know who did what but that didn’t stop the writer from presenting all this analytical data, as indisputable facts. The writer does not say it is fact, but without showing the video evidence that brought him to these conclusions, it sounds very solid. All this information is based on video evidence that only the writer is privy to. If the video evidence is solid, then provide links to some YouTube videos. I suspect the video evidence if seen by 100 people, you will likely arrive at several different conclusions. Unless there is indisputable evidence, I think there is a more likely chance the writer is using confirmation bias to support his conclusions, and of course since we are not seeing the video evidence, it is hard to question it.

The fact remains however, there sure is a lot of smoke. Maybe the Astros did nothing wrong. Maybe it is all a series of unfortunate coincidences, and ex players with an axe to grind. I think likely though, there will be some serious cheating that happened, but probably not as widespread, and organized as rumored.
The way most media have been covering and reporting this, it’s as if the Astros invented sign stealing and the technology to do it. If there is any truth to the rumor that Beltran and Cora were the masterminds behind this system, does anyone really think that they say down together one day and came up with the system?
MLBs nightmare scenario is that these two learned this system as players on other teams. Just look at the teams these two have played for. The deeper you look into this, the more teams will be implicated, unless you believe MLB was pure as the wind driven snow, prior to the Astros corrupting it.
Let’s say however, it was as described here, a wide ranging, complex operation involving the whole team and management. How would anyone expect a secret operation, with so many involved, expect secrecy to be maintained? The answer is that it wasn’t secret. It wasn’t talked about out in the open, but everyone had some level of sign stealing operation going on. That is why it was somewhat out in the open. I mean, if it was such a secret, how did the Astros expect Mike Fiers, and other ex players not to spill the beans?
The reasonable explanation is that it wasn’t as serious, and probably done by most teams to some extent.
The people posting here that everyone is doing it, is not an excuse, I beg to differ. Millions of dollars are at stake, and billions on the team level. You cannot just know that team A is doing these things, and just go in there and take your beating every time you play them. You do it too, or you can report them to MLB. Well nobody wants to report anybody else because most players have been on teams with other players and are friends. And they are well aware that these things go on. Mike Fiers just became the first guy that was jaded enough to say something. It will be interesting to see if he dosen’t find it hard to get work after his current contract expires. It will say a lot about the league in general.

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  Rowdy McFlowdy

If this kind of thing were prevalent in MLB, all catchers would always be putting down sequences with bases empty.

brunoMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Rowdy McFlowdy

The video evidence is readily available online. There is ample proof that they cheated. Yes, some of these players will be tainted for life. They deserve it.

aweb
6 years ago

5 wins in 61 home games is an insanely large advantage to gain, if this article is anything near accurate (and the surface analysis seems valid). For a full year, that’s 7 wins just in the home games, a 14 WAR player equivalent, part-time. Using fangraphs #’s, 2017 Altuve was worth 7.6 wins. Replacing him with 2017 Rougned Odor (-1.4 WAR) for the home games doesn’t offset that advantage here. It’s adding Peak Barry Bonds to your lineup, except it costs you nothing, not even a roster spot.

This would also screw up scouting reports on the players and make it harder to game-plan against them. I don’t know if pitch mix changed over the course of the year, and that data would be incredibly noisy, I would think, but it might have been an important effect too.

I hope MLB punishes the living hell out of the team officials, coaches, and players.

johnforthegiants
6 years ago

I would agree that some really significant should be given to the players who cheated (maybe a 2 -year ban maximum?) but it’s less clear how much to penalize each player. I guess the pitchers could just get a slap on the wrist, but how to differentiate between batters. How to tell how much use each player made of this? If we assume that every batter made use of it every time they were at the plate when the team was at home, then they could each get punished according to how many plate appearances each of them had at home during the time period in question–but maybe there were periods of time when for one reason or another the system wasn’t used? Maybe some players decided that they wanted no part of it and made their position clear to the team? It sounds tough to decide.

One thing which does seem clear, though, especially after reading this article–Altuve should be stripped of his 2017 MVP award. He clearly used and benefitted from the system enormously. MLB needs to send a message that you can’t win an MVP award by cheating.

WARrior
6 years ago

I’m sorry, but a much better case would have to be made before it would be justified to sanction Altuve or anyone else. The author focusses on improvements in swing runs and take runs at home after May 19, but he doesn’t discuss the fact that for some pitches there is a decrease in home performance after May 19, or an increase in road performance greater than that at home. This is the case even looking at the entire team, in his first tables, as well as in individual players.

Why? The most likely explanation is that these are random changes. The author doesn’t provide any standard errors or deviations, nor does he apply this analysis to players on other teams that were not using a sign stealing system. In fact, there are road improvements vs. certain pitches in the entire team that are greater than any of the home improvements. How can you possibly argue that the home improvements are significant, when the road improvements, which are ignored, are even greater?

I appreciate the author digging into the numbers, but a much more rigorous analysis is needed before we talk about suspending anyone. Drug tests usually establish that an athlete has the drug in his system at a probability of much less than 0.01. These data don’t come remotely close to that standard.

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago

The team should lose an entire draft of players if you ask me! The players should lose all the playoff money they earned plus a million dollars. the GM, manager, and coaches should be banned from the game. It would never happen again!

The GuruMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Players need to be banned from game too and they should lose 5 years of draft picks

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago

AND THE NATS STILL BEAT THEM!

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Sorry I am still very very happy the Nats won! I do not think I’ll ever get over it!

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Isn’t that just great !