What the Astros Might Deserve
There are many pieces detailing how the Astros appear to have cheated by using video to steal signs in real-time. Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich wrote a lengthy piece for The Athletic with quotes from former Astros’ pitcher Mike Fiers detailing the team’s practices in 2017. The basics are in that piece, but there are a several more that discuss what the team was reportedly doing and how they did it. We don’t yet know all the facts; it is still unclear precisely how long the team engaged in this practice, and who all of the responsible parties are. But what the evidence makes pretty clear is that the Astros stole signs with the aid of advanced technology and relayed those signs to hitters during games. That’s cheating.
What the Astros and their employees might receive in terms of punishment for engaging in that practice is less clear, though multiple precedents have been set to guide the league’s possible enforcement. Perhaps you’re of the mind that the consequences Astros deserve to suffer is to have won fewer games, including their 2017 World Series. But such an extreme result is unlikely. Astros wins and championship banners probably won’t be taken away or vacated like a farcical college athletics penalty. Even when players are caught cheating in the middle of games, the results aren’t vacated. So what might we expect? In looking to past scandals, we can get a glimpse at MLB and Rob Manfred’s approach. There are multiple factors that play into potential punishment, both for individuals and the franchise, but here are a few of the major ones:
- Is this the first time a team has been penalized for breaking the rules?
- Was the organization cooperative with MLB’s investigation?
- How high up the organizational chain does the knowledge and activity go?
For the first factor, let’s consider the Boston Red Sox’s penalty for breaking the rules surrounding signing international free agents. After the club exceeded the allowable pool amount to sign Yoán Moncada, it were restricted from signing any amateur international free agents for more than $300,000. To get around those restrictions, the Red Sox signed less well-regarded players for $300,000 with the expectation that money from some of those lesser players would go to the better players who should have received higher bonuses and were represented by the same agents. When the Red Sox penalty for circumventing the rules came down in 2016, they were prohibited from signing any international free agents for a year, and the players involved were declared free agents, with Boston unable to recoup their signing bonuses, which remained with the players. It was the first time a team had been penalized in this fashion.
Fast forward to the penalties handed down in the Braves case in November 2017. The Braves engaged in a similar scheme as the Red Sox’s, except they did so the year before they spent big on international amateurs. By breaking the rules to stay under their pool level in the 2015-2016 signing period, they were able to spend more in the next period and give multiple players million dollar bonuses, including Kevin Maitan. As a result, the players who were part of the scheme in the 2015-2016 signing period were declared free agents. In addition, the players who the Braves were able to sign in the next period only because of the previous scheme were also declared free agents. The Braves were also unable to recoup the bonuses handed out to these players. This was essentially the same penalty as the Red Sox, except that, because of the way the Braves broke the rules, they lost about ten times more in bonus money. The Braves were prevented from giving out a bonus of more than $10,000 for a year, similar to the Red Sox, but they also received further penalties in the form of a smaller bonus pool in 2020-2021. On top of the organizational penalties, former general manager John Coppolella was permanently banned from working in baseball, while special assistant Gordon Blakely was suspended for a year.
When differentiating the penalties the Braves and the Red Sox received for essentially the same infraction, we can think of the Red Sox’s transgression acting as a warning for the rest of the league. While the Braves’ penalties look a lot more severe, the organizational impact was similar — the difference in severity came in the punishments for individuals. And a cooperative front office matters. When Rob Manfred was asked about potential Cardinals’ penalties for the hacking scandal and how the Red Sox situation compared, he specifically mentioned the Red Sox cooperation as a factor in determining their sanctions:
“I do not see a great parallel between the Red Sox situation and the St. Louis situation, principally for these reasons: The Red Sox, to their credit, accepted organization responsibility for what went on,” Manfred said.
“We don’t have all of the facts in the St. Louis-Houston situation. To date, there has been no implication that this was an organizational problem but there has been an indication that it was one employee, (who) did something inappropriate, the organization found out about it, and fired the employee. Those are very, very different things.”
When discussing the Braves’ international violations, Manfred indicated the Braves were cooperative, but that Coppolella was not. That likely played a role in the severity of the punishment Coppolella received. The Braves hired a new general manager in Alex Anthopolous, while former President of Baseball Operations John Hart also left the organization. Cleaning house helped shift some penalties from the organization to individuals; Manfred cited new leadership in Atlanta as a positive:
“The senior Baseball Operations officials responsible for the misconduct are no longer employed by the Braves,” Commissioner Rob Manfred said in a statement. “I am confident that Terry McGuirk, John Schuerholz, Alex Anthopoulos and their staffs have and will put in place procedures to ensure that this type of conduct never occurs again and which will allow the Club to emerge from this difficult period as the strong and respected franchise that it has always been.”
Similarly, Chris Correa was uncooperative with MLB and received a lifetime ban, though Manfred indicated the organization should still be held responsible:
“Although Mr Correa’s conduct was not authorized by the Cardinals, as a matter of MLB policy, I am holding the Cardinals responsible for his conduct,” Manfred wrote. “A club suffers material harm when an employee of another club illegally accesses its confidential and propriety information, particularly intrusions of the nature and scope present here. In addition, as a result of Mr Correa’s conduct, the Astros suffered substantial negative publicity and had to endure the time, expense and distraction of both a lengthy government investigation and an MLB investigation.”
MLB opted for restitution in that case, awarding the Astros two Cardinals’ draft picks and $2 million; the league presumably believed that Correa going to prison would serve as a sufficient deterrent to future misconduct. That MLB’s investigation didn’t go any higher than Correa likely prevented a front-office shakeup or more severe penalties. That leads to the final factor from above. The last time penalties were meted out for sign-stealing, the lack of organizational knowledge was deemed a plus by Manfred. When the league set down a fine for the Red Sox in 2017, he noted the following:
“In assessing the significance of this violation, the investigation established three relevant points. First, the violation in question occurred without the knowledge of ownership or front office personnel. Second, when the Red Sox learned of the Yankees’ complaint, they immediately halted the conduct in question and then cooperated completely in my investigation. I have received absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type. Third, our investigation revealed that Clubs have employed various strategies to decode signs that do not violate our rules. The Red Sox’ strategy violated our rules because of the use of an electronic device.
“Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida. Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.
When we consider the precedent and statements from above, things don’t look especially great for Houston. Manfred issued his statement concerning the Red Sox’s sign-stealing about a week before the Danny Farquhar incident described in the Rosenthal/Drellich piece, so even if the cheating didn’t extend into the playoffs (and the television monitor being removed after a World Series game makes that claim seem dubious), there’s still evidence of the Astros cheating after Manfred announced that more severe penalties would follow future incidents. Emails from special assistant to the general manager Kevin Goldstein to scouts about stealing signs with cameras further would seem to indicate an organizational problem. And an incident involving the Astros in the 2018 postseason, which Jeff Luhnow’s attributed to the team being on the lookout for illegal sign-stealing, would make it difficult for Luhnow to claim he was unaware that his own organization might be engaging in their own sign-stealing when he was constantly watching other teams for the same behavior. MLB solidifying other rules around the practice heading into the 2019 season shows further efforts by the Commissioner to clean up electronic sign-stealing, efforts of which the Astros were surely aware.
As for the current scope of the investigation, Manfred took a position ahead of the owner’s meetings yesterday, indicating that the investigation is currently focused on the Astros and issuing some strong statements on potential penalties:
Manfred on the gravity of the allegations against the Astros: “Any allegations that relate to a rule violation that could affect the outcome of a game or games is the most serious matter. … We have … what is going to be a really, really thorough investigation ongoing."
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) November 19, 2019
While the investigation could eventually cover others teams and players, that will probably be of little help to Houston. Much of the coverage of the scandal hints at other teams engaging in sign-stealing themselves, and Ken Rosenthal has advocated for a very broad investigation based on what he’s heard, but has not yet been able to confirm. How pervasive the practice is, and how closely the behavior of other teams resembles that of the Astros is still unknown, and is likely important context through which to consider possible punishment. The Commissioner will need to exact penalties that are consistent and repeatable for other teams, players, and executives, but likely won’t be eager to mete out penalties without significant testimony and evidence. If MLB isn’t looking beyond Houston, the Commissioner is unlikely to find much that contextualizes the Astros’ actions unless the Astros themselves turn over what they’ve found about other teams’ behavior.
With the Astros, we have obvious cheating with prior precedent for penalties, repeated efforts by baseball to prevent this behavior, and the entire organization, at a minimum, cognizant of potential sign-stealing issues. Ultimately, even if the Astros organization tells the truth about what happened, they are going to be hit hard. If individual employees don’t cooperate, or are found to be lying, they are going to be hit harder. The Astros’ reputation as an organization willing to do anything to win is going to hurt them publicly, but looking solely at the actual evidence will probably be plenty to bring about significant penalties. While some forms of stealing signs are largely accepted as part of baseball, there’s too much in the way of bright-line rules, clear precedent, and brazen disregard for the same to think the Astros’ behavior isn’t going to be easily seen as cheating when the Commissioner’s office conducts their analysis. If the investigation reveals continued illegal efforts to steal signs in 2018 and 2019, harsh penalties are warranted. An excuse of “everyone is doing it” isn’t going to hold water when teams were put on notice of the risk of getting caught. When commenting on Chris Correa’s behavior, Manfred said:
“I am intolerant with respect to the violation of our rules.”
When the investigation concludes, we’ll find out more than just the Astros sign-stealing scheme. We’ll find out if that statement is true.
Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.
Good summary. I’m going to say that in addition to a fine and draft choices, Luhnow and whoever directly ran the cheating operation will get a permanent ban and Hinch and others a year. MLBPA will make it hard to penalize players who took advantage.
I agree. MLB is going to make this a 3rd rail issue, similar to gambling I think.
I think Crane gets 80s Steinbrenner’d, Luhnow is thrown out of the game, Hinch gets a long suspension, Cora either a short one or a sizable fine, and many draft picks are gone. They’ll still be good next year and the year after, but it’s going to really hurt their 2020s.
probably also international money taken away….
They have to prove beyond shadow of a doubt folks there was cheating.
Fiers, Dodgers and Yankees all have personal bones to pick with the Astros.
Also a lot of the evidence is circumspect.
And to be real the fines of now weren’t used then so unless you want the MLB to start penalizing teams for having dopers pre-steroid era, you might want to step back.
On the other hand the Astros probably won’t try to play the “prove it” card too hard because then mlb might seem them “uncooperative “. Astros might get off easier when they admit everything than if the make mlb prove every bit of it,
yeah. And some guys may be very cooperative to hope to stay employed in baseball….
The evidence – even the publicly available evidence – isn’t equivocal. Tbe Baseball Prospectus analysis of the broadcast audio files matching up with the timestamps on Statcast breaking pitches isn’t circumstantial evidence.
{got my work cut out for me tonight — Serb.}
They must prove more than the shadow of doubt that has been uttered.
The guys, Dodgers and Ianki have their bones to pick from in the Astros.
And a lot of evidence is on the alert.
And to be really good, don’t use it right now, unless you want MLB to start punishing the team that angered them before infertility, you might want to retire.
[repeat]
The Taubman service is aimed at a distorted sports writer who wants to find something to attack in the eighth.
I’m a woman and I invite her to it.
this
They must prove more than the shadow of doubt that has been uttered.
The guys, Dodgers and Ianki have their bones to pick from in the Astros.
And a lot of evidence is on the alert.
And to be really good, don’t use it right now, unless you want MLB to start punishing the team that angered them before infertility, you might want to retire.
____________________
o be honest, if MLB is in it, the Astros can sue and claim every winning title at the age of each of its awards.
He won’t do it for that reason.
_______________
In fact, they can do what your whistle does, and headlines must be prosecuted for violating applicable laws.
This is what you want here.
_______________
Well … Do it and every team wins a trophy in court before the Council, a poststeroid bracelet, does it.
Do I look inconsistent and exaggerated?
This is what you suggest.
____________
There will no longer be a ban on his life.
There was something a great man could do about revenge, but the truth got worse.
Anyway – they haven’t proven anything yet.
Remember: all Fiori, Doders and Iankees have their bones to choose from with the Astros.
Types: until 2017, then posted.
I did not buy his needs until he returned to the circle and a cash prize. (I think who cares about him).
He is also an athlete now, and the Astros did all this last year.
Iankees: 10 years without VS, 3 from Astros. They also accused Red Juice and others of cheating until they were injured.
Doder: Gurriel’s anger in July was not banned at the rest of the World Series for his racist gestures.
Gurriel helped the Astros win 5 games 7.
Write down the facts and questions:
А. How can rubber cans look like metal?
B. Seriously whistling is funny because the horn on stage is getting more and more.
C. They can watch records from legal shows from previous games and be a pitcher.
D. They have a preview of the game with a screen that tracks the challenges.
Е. The rainbow is recorded all the time, so why is it not in dispute now?
F. Hard Pencils: They are wide open, so why the risk of getting caught so easily?
Everyone is bloodless here, but the lawsuits are very problematic … The border on revenge.
_____________________________________
DUKE: They get revenge, not basically.
I think what I have with other teams.
Everything filtered, Iankee and the Dodgers were salty – the “bad” Astros were injured and he has created an ALP or more in the last 7 years since in the AL and other ALDSs.
They are unacceptable – the “Clown” group that does this.
___________
This whistle can’t be recorded until we play through the games, and no bands or tapes are seen.
How are metal candies wiped?
The coldest screams have bones chosen by the Astrose for individuals (muscles) or for larger reasons.
People need to see reality: There are many challenges.
Stop feeling guilty until proven guilty. ”
________________
Keep in mind they had a better profile in 2015, so that’s ridiculous.
Iinin:
Registration for 2017:
Houses: 48 to 33;
Absences: 53 to 28
So we feel something fishy in the allegations you make.
______________
It’s not fair.
I know cameras have had their debts for years and years.
Video proof is weird – does the sound of the tire produce METAL sound?
The machine is a meter in the playoffs and then released.
It has bones and I worry about who wants it.
What starts out is a vision that starts when people say the team is better than that year.
To your needs?
Unless we can remove the winning title of every Islamic DOPER team for Prohibited DEP:
That’s not going to happen.
Oh, and this is why this team is doing well?
29 owners forced the Astros to sell to the AL West.
Anything you move them out of the competition center thinking they want to be clowns.
And compare the blocks to Black Sok.
They recorded the series on a different team. They don’t eat time to win. sigh
_________________________________
That is a fact, but even before the NL strikes, they had 80 seasons, and far longer than the supposed scandal.
________________________________
In case of errors, there is a proven digestive history.
People don’t see the details in their hated Astros.
A. The fuses did not arrive until 2017, and he was later released after the season.
He was very sweet about it – unless he returned to the ring and the award – it was REEKS revenge.
B. Salty fugitives from July were not banned in the series after his racist pursuits. This decision allows him to help win five and seven rounds.
C. Iankees wrath? 5 words:
Ten years of World Series.
“Evidence” also suspects:
1. “Rumble” – Guys, I heard the sound of metal.
The canoe tram is rubber / plastic.
Make no noise.
2. Display – The challenge allows the person to monitor the game during a delay.
And they’re still filming: So why isn’t the charge now even before the testimony?
3. Whistling – the stupidest of allegations. People often whistle at games on both sides.
It was funny when it was used as a request.
4. Call the Newsletters: In case you haven’t noticed: BP is open.
That is, it is a little strange that it will generate any kind of signal that will be displayed to the viewer.
Conaino
5. It is legal to watch videos from previous games.
You said 29 teams are really stupid or not.
The Astros will only be punished for their whimper.
But am I really exploring? – These are not cut and dried, so unless you want the same treatment with your group of defendants? Come back
________________________________________
[EPILOGUE]:
People are Damin ‘Astros: How would you think your group was convicted before finding evidence?
Please analyze:
Three people give up machine teams, Iankees and DoD: They all have the bones to vote for the national team.
Ward: He is not on the team in 2017, and was released at the end of the season.
He still doesn’t get his ring and money back so he needs to check it out.
Doders: Julie is angry that he won’t be banned from the rest of the series after his racist move.
Keep in mind that Iuli helped her team win Game 5 to 7, more than “Density.”
Iankee: The Astros keep them from two World Series made in the last 10 years and from the third ALP.
They have also repeatedly accused the deceived opponent.
••••••••
Then we look for “evidence” of “whistling.”
The movie with “The Big Band” has a tire. Why metal vengeance rings?
Whistle – that’s the dumbest of all. All of the above whistles.
Keep in mind that the last shoe request was made after everyone pointed out that the team was better at 17.
Oh, it’s self-deprecating and jealous.
And the screen was weird: people claimed to have watched viewers for a long time, but now they turn around and say the team won’t let him out.
What kind of people are they?
I don’t know, they have photo shots, so they wonder why it wasn’t reported 17?
“Bulolovka” is funny because HA is easy to register at work.
Be realistic:
The Astros will not lose the title.
Out? They have a reason to ask all teams to be infertile DOPPER before the law, and even now they lose.
That’s a lot of titles for a big bag.
They will be punished, and the straits will be calmed by bad sports teams.
The owner of the Look-29 was created from the Astros in West AL from an extremely difficult center.
Now the angry Astros have appeared four times out of seven when AL and two were injured.
Meanwhile … Uh Jenkenni “in turn” passes the usurper to him.
You will dream.
I will live on this event and I will know if MLB will beat you to the truth.
cliff notes please.
This is like Jane Eyre, except it’s worth reading. Well done.
@TKDC – of course it’s like Jane Eyre. The original writer was FEMALE.
“The Dodgers and Yankees all have personal bones to pick with the Astros.”
Well the Astros did cheat them out of a potential championship.
Yeah Fernando, That’s actually the saddest part. What if Kershaw retires without championship? It absolutely changes his legacy. He’s in danger of being the Dan Marino of pitchers.
I think the down voter kids themself with regards to Kershaw. Dan Marino in football isn’t viewed by a wide margin of football fans as well as Joe Montana. And that’s entirely due to the # of Super Bowls each guy won…. Even though statistically, Marino was much better than Montana.
” Even though statistically, Marino was much better than Montana.”
For their careers, Montana had a completion percentage that was 4 points higher, 0.1% higher touchdown percentage, 0.4% lower interception percentage, and 0.2 more yards per attempt. Montana had a much higher sack rate, but was also a better runner. I think it is totally reasonable to pick Marino over Montana, but to claim that Marino is statistically much better than Montana is not based on actually looking at any statistics. The one statistic where Marino does much better is 3000 extra passing attempts, which doesn’t really have much at all to do with either player’s actual talent level.
but would you agree that Montana is viewed as being well head of Marino?
If so, that’s entirely the championships…..
Rings for all fingers > Isotoners for each hand.
Just neighing.
Finkle IS Einhorn! Laces out!
Pretty sure Kershaw isn’t coked up the way Marino was most of his career.
Found the butthurt Astros fan.
My thoughts exactly.
Burn. Them. To. The. Ground.
That is all.
Punishment prediction – Loss of draft picks plus a sizable fine. Something like loss of 1st and a 2nd or even a pair of 1st rounders if the investigation uncovers particularly egregious behavior.
This episode is bad for the league. The punishment will need to signal that they are serious about cleaning this up, and it needs to act as a deterrent going forward.
They have to prove beyond shadow of a doubt folks there was cheating.
Fiers, Dodgers and Yankees all have personal bones to pick with the Astros.
Also a lot of the evidence is circumspect.
And to be real the fines of now weren’t used then so unless you want the MLB to start penalizing teams for having dopers pre-steroid era, you might want to step back.
nice copy and paste
We are all they-have-to-prove-beyond-shadow-of-a-doubt folks.
Yeah: because I’m telling truth you poor sports HATE.
dude you might in 1 column set the fan graphs record for most combined down votes in a column ever….
I live in DC so I’ve seen this story before. The Astros were actually trying to stop the cheating, right?
Well, unfortunately for the Astros, they don’t have a fan club of Baghdad Bob cosplayers deciding their fate, so they are going to get hammered.
This isn’t a criminal trial. MLB absolutely does not need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is basically a civil matter – if the evidence suggests it is more likely than not they can dish out harsh penalties. Players receive long suspensions for alleged assault cases that never go to trial. It is more likely than not that those players were guilty, but clearly their guilt was not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and they still receive penalties. Even if you are delusional enough to think the Astros are somehow innocent, it is hard to be so delusional that you don’t even understand under what terms MLB can apply significant penalties.
Not harsh enough. A low first round pick, at the end of the day, carries fairly marginal value. I’d say they forfeit the first 10 picks (i.e., you get no actual prospects in the draft, no picks you can use on senior signs to spend for a later guy, just organizational filler so your minor league teams have rosters) and the $10,000 cap on international free agents for a year. Basically: You get no prospects for a year. Plus some variant of the bans people have floated, depending on the proof of each individual’s knowledge and participation. Goldstein gets a lifetime ban, I’d think. That email is unforgivable.
Is there precedent for MLB suspending an employee of one team for conduct that the person engaged in while employed by a different team? I’m wondering if suspensions for Beltran and Cora would be appropriate if the investigation determines they were involved in the sign stealing. Suspending them now would seem to unfairly penalize not only the personnel, but also their current teams. Perhaps MLB would restrain itself to fines in the case of Beltran and Cora, while reserving the suspensions for current Astros employees?
I think Cora would be in much more trouble vs Beltran- coach vs player….
Maybe instead of suspending Beltran his punishment will be to continue to manage the Mets.
Yes, look at the Astros themselves.
They traded for Robert Osuna. Osuna, while with the Blue Jays, assaulted a women and received a 75-game ban. The Astros traded for him while he continued his punishment.
This year Yasiel Puig was involved in a benches clearing brawl with the Reds, after he had been traded (REALLY unsure why he was still in the game), but he was suspended and had to sit out while a member of Cleveland.
I understand what you’re asking, but it’s not just as if someone is a part of a different organization they get a free pass.
I’m not sure either of those examples really works. Osuna had already been suspended, as you point out, so the Astros knew that they were acquiring someone who would not be able to immediately contribute to the team. The Mets and Red Sox had no such knowledge when they acquired Beltran and Cora.
Puig is a closer example, but, again as you point out, Puig’s conduct occurred *after* he had been traded. And if the Indians had been concerned about him doing something that would warrant a suspension before he joined the team, they could have demanded that the Reds pull him from the game. The Mets and Red Sox had no such way to protect themselves ex ante.
To be sure, I’m not arguing that Cora and Beltran should get a free pass. (In fact, I suggested they be punished in a different fashion than a suspension.) I’m just curious how MLB will balance the interests of the people and the teams.
I could see large fines as a way to punish the individual and not an innocent team. But, sometimes doing the right thing leads to collateral damage.
“the Astros organization tells the truth about what happened”
Hahaha what a story, Mark.
I take back my criticisms, FG stepped up and this piece is great.
Also worth noting that this is just one of two current investigations involving the Astros, the other being the Taubman affair.
Hi! You may have wandered into the wrong website! To be clear, we don’t appreciate spamming the same comment over and over again around here! Thanks! Have a lovely day!
This made my day.
Two favorite lines:
“I’m FEMALE and calling her out on it.”
“Also a lot of the evidence is circumspect.”
I’m totally 100% certain that the registered Fangraphs commenter/spammer who named themselves after an obscure reference to the ’80s TV sitcom “ALF” is a woman and not a guy just claiming to be one on the internet.
And I bet you won’t counter my argument because I speak logic and you hate the Astros.
There ZERO doubt in my mind here this is nothing more than revenge by Fiers, Yankees and Dodgers… and pennants for the biased female reporter because simply firing Taubman wasn’t good enough for her.
You all forget she walked into the owner’s office and demanded an apology letter.
One thing I’m confused about is who was looking for revenge and/or had bones to pick.
Glad you love truth.
If you don’t think either are the reason why this is really going on? You’re delusional.
You should hop on any other sites that are showing video related to this. The internet has already done quite a job and no one has bones to pick with the Astros; certainly not the all of the internet.
The only thing that could further this is how the Astros cooperate and if this runs deeper than what Reddit, Twitter, & Facebook have already found. There are like 50-60 videos that already show easy instances and those are just from MLB.com game feeds.
I’m looking for something unprecedented and WILD:
Punishment: Poll the other 29 GMs and vote for 3 Astros players to automatically become Free Agents; and the Astros can’t sign a Free agent for more than $2mil during this this Free agency period.
MLBPA would never allow this nor should they allow a punishment to a team that would remove a potential spender in FA.
There’s a lot of ways to punish a team with fines, suspensions, bans, draft pick removal and so on without effecting FA’s.
This works only if the Astros have to pay the rest of the contracts.
How about this, let the other 29 teams Draft directly from the Astros roster, respecting only player blocking rights. The contract of that player will still be paid by the Astros. The draft order would be based on how wronged the other teams were. So Dodgers and Yankees first, the ALW, then AL, then NL.
I’m not sure if you’re joking here or not but… What? No. This isn’t the NCAA, the notion that the league can just unilaterally implement punishments and vacate championships (I know you didn’t mention that) pretending like they didn’t happen is impossible and rather stupid. This had nothing to do with player acquisitions, specifically at the major league level so I doubt MLB would suddenly start letting the league draft from the Astros while saddling them with the bill.
My original comment, which proceeded the one that you have an issue with, stated: “UNPRECEDENTED” and “WILD” punishments. I am not looking to predict what will happen with some dull fine, suspension or draft picks. Turn up the heat!
The Taubman affair is due to a BIASED sportswriter who wanted to find something to attack Osuna on.
I’m FEMALE and calling her out on it.
This
They have to prove beyond shadow of a doubt folks there was cheating.
Fiers, Dodgers and Yankees all have personal bones to pick with the Astros.
Also a lot of the evidence is circumspect.
And to be real the fines of now weren’t used then so unless you want the MLB to start penalizing teams for having dopers pre-steroid era, you might want to step back.
We get it – you are an angry Astros fan. Calm down and quit posting the same message over and over.
Hey are you female?
Being uncomfortable with someone celebrating assault is bias?
It’s completely silly to think they would do anything impacting players as the players association would be involved.
Vacating the championship could only happen if much more is found and MLB is not going to look that hard for that kind of data
It will be some combo of fines, draft picks, suspensions, banning of various personnel. The only real questions that can stir up controversy is if Cora/Beltran are involved. Then you have a bigger issue
To be truthful if the MLB vacated it the Astros could sue and demand EVERY title won by a team with a doper loses EVERY one of their awards.
They won’t do that for that very reason.
1.) MLB will not be vacating any titles or awards, calm down.
2.) LOL no, Houston could not sue to strip other teams of their titles. Please stop spewing nonsense around this place. It insults you as much as it annoys us.
Actually, they can do what these whistleblowers are doing and demand titles be stripped retroactively for Breaking current laws.
That is what you are wanting here.
I don’t know who MLB will ban from the Astros over this matter, but please ban this melmac79 from this baseball discussion. Thank you.
Cora could easily be banned from baseball, depending on his role, what he knew, and what he came up with.
Similarly I’m not trying to predict what’s going to happen, I’m trying to suggest a huge punishment that wouldn’t run straight into the MLBPA.
A huge fine or loss of draft picks are much more likely outcomes than anything about current MLB players.
There is a problem that any player would be unlikely to be suspended (and have it stick) unless there is a substantial amount of evidence about that player. That leaves coaches, front office, and the organization (owner) as targets for a “this likely happened and you didn’t fully cooperate with our investigation” situation—which seems likely given that the investigation isn’t over.
Personally, I’d like to see an MLB official, with a job that’s exclusively integrity, join the Astros for a few years. They can go anywhere and talk to anyone within the organization but has a big fat NDA about Astros operations unrelated to rules violations.
Fine… you do that and EVERY one of those teams that has won a trophy with a doper before the ban has to do it too, DOUBLE post steroid ban.
Sound unfair and excessive?
That’s what you’re suggesting.
First off if you are a woman you are doing women a disservice. The reporter in question gave the Astros every opportunity to get out in front of the story and there idea of doing this was heads in the sand immediate denial then only after the story was independently verified multiple times did they finally apologize to the reporter and fire the AGM.
As far as this moronic idea that teams with steroid users should have titles vacated, I wont even begin to point out all the holes in this idea.
Baseball, MLB specifically has always allowed or turned a blind eye to certain types of cheating, steroids although illegal were not banned, cocaine, greenies and so on. However MLB has always been fairly direct in its distain for in game cheating, eg corked bats, pine tar on the ball, electronic sign stealing and so on. I’m not judging which is ok and which isn’t I’m just pointing out history. But again I reiterate that I don’t think MLB would or should vacate any championships.
To be fair, this kind of warped logic *is* taught on Melmac.
I struggle with Hinch and the coaches. They are sitting in the dugout, feet from the banging, so they know what’s going on. Plus Hinch’s crocodile tears over being accused this year look very bad now.
In the PED scandals, people were all over TLR and Selig because they “had to know” but it’s quite conceivable that management did not know Jose Canseco was shooting up players in a bathroom stall.
Here, it’s impossible to believe that Hinch, and to a lesser extent Luhnow, didn’t know. Is it possible the ops people could place a camera without Luhnow knowing about it – maybe.
Do these folks sign a Code if Conduct every year? I know I have at every company I have worked for. This would clearly be a code of conduct violation punishable by dismissal.
If an SA to the GM knew this was going on, and apparently he had a hand in it I have to imagine the GM knew. If I was Luhnow I would rather be viewed as guilty-compliant then as a damn fool.
To me it seems pretty obvious that everyone knew. Nolan Ryan’s timing is also incredibly suspicious. I hope he found out for the first time what was going on and didn’t want to be associated with it, or he found out that shit was hitting the fan and didn’t want to be associated with it.
Thank you for writing this.
I actually think Hinch ought to get as much or more of a suspension than Luhnow. Assuming there is no direct proof that Luhnow knew or should have known. I just don’t see any reasonable way that Hinch didn’t know.
Luhnow knew.
Not sure which would be worse:
The GM had -any- kind of knowledge that his organization was involved in this (players, devices, e-mails sent from execs to scouts)
-OR-
All of that was happening with the people mentioned above and he DIDN’T know. That would show it’s even more wild in Houston
Yeah, there’s absolutely no plausible way Luhnow could not have known about, and approved, this. As you say, the idea that he might not have would almost be even more damning, i.e. the inmates running the asylum and whatnot.
Loss of 3 top draft picks and international money, and 90 day suspensions of all management personnel, including Cora, who instituted use of PED (Performance Enhancing Drumming).
gonna be a whole hell of a lot longer suspensions for all management. To include lifetime bans quite frankly.
There won’t be lifetime bans over this.
There’ll be something to assuage the big three out for revenge, but facts hurt them more.
Regardless – They haven’t even PROVED anything.
Keep in mind: Fiers, Dodgers and Yankees all have personal bones to pick with the Astros.
Fiers: not being on the 2017 playoff team then being released after.
I don’t buy his claims until he returns his ring and bonus money. (I’d keep tabs on who is interested in him).
He’s also an Athletic now, and the Astros pummeled their chances this year and last.
Yankees: 10 years not in WS, 3 caused by Astros. They ALSO have accused the Red Sox and others of cheating when they don’t get to the WS.
Dodgers: furious Yuli Gurriel wasn’t banned from rest of the World Series for his racist gesture.
Gurriel went on to help the Astros win games 5&7.
Note these facts, and the questions of:
A. How can rubber trash cans sound like metal?
B. Seriously, whistling is ridiculous given whistles are ALL throughout the stadium ALL game long BOTH sides.
C. They can legally watch broadcast footage from past games and those get closeups PD pitchers.
D. They have one view the game with a monitor ON DELAYED TIME for challenges.
E. Dugouts filmed ALL the time so why wasn’t this challenged LONG BEFORE now?
F. Bullpen claim: they’re out in the wide open, so why risk being caught so easily?
Everyone here is out for blood but the claims made are highly questionable… bordering revenge.
What kind of mental jumping jacks did you have to do to come to these conclusions?
You’re muddying the waters with outlandish conspiracies and asking questions of immaterial nature.
I’m pretty sure that the Red Sox were accused of something like this except they weren’t particularly punished as it was on a much smaller scale. So I’m not sure how harshly they’ll be punished, but it might not be as much as everyone is expecting.
The article literally discusses this…
The Red Sox were stealing signs with a runner on second – the traditional way – the only novel thing about Boston’s approach is that they used the Apple watch to transmit it to the batter. (As far as I am aware)
The Astros did the for almost every single pitch – which I think is a pretty big difference. Also the whole league were on notice for this after the Sox got busted.
I don’t agree with Phil’s first paragraph. My understanding is that the Red Sox had an employee watching a video feed who then sent the information to the Apple Watch of someone in the dugout.
To be fair: International signing “violations” are as common as a pitcher using a “foreign substances”. Extremely wide-spread(except the Orioles for obvious reasons) and acceptable as long as you don’t make it blatantly obvious. Plus the effects shuffling money around to sign a 16-year old are light-years away from impacting the game now the field. The violation being “far from the field” is true with the “Ground Control Scandal” too. It was like a hedge fund manager trying to beat the market with insider information on only Apple’s mobile phone division. Plus it only really negatively harmed 1 team.
If the signing stealing allegations hold, it direct affected the CURRENT ON FIELD product while harming every team that played the Astros. That is substantially different IMO
I have a feeling lifetime bans will be handed down.
I’d be okay with Luhnow and Hinch both getting lifetime bans. Cora receiving a one year suspension. Beltran receiving 30 games.
Plus significant fines and international prospect penalties.
A lifetime ban for the manager and GM will certainly make every team who thinks to do this think again.
Do you think your opinion will change when the actual evidence comes in?
Duke: they’re out for revenge, not fact.
I’d be saying what I have if it were other teams.
Fact is Fiers, Yankees and Dodgers are all salty the “inferior” Astros won a WS and have made it to the ALCS or higher four of their past 7 years since going to the AL, and ALDS another.
To them that’s unacceptable the “clown” team doing that.
I like how you’ve repeatedly claimed it hasn’t been proven that the Astros cheated, yet you insist it’s a fact that other teams are just being salty. (This is even more hypocritical given that there’s no proof the Yankees and Dodgers are the driving force behind the investigation).
You mean when we see how widespread the Astros’ cheating was?
MLB doesn’t generally just hand out life time bans, since 1944 there’s has been 9 people associated with baseball that have been banned for life and only 3 are currently still banned, Pete Rose, John Coppolella and Chris Correa and the one theme among them is not cooperating with the investigation. Prior to 1944 there are only like 14 people banned and most are for fixing games or gambling or both. My point is that MLB is quite forgiving so long as you repent, even life time drug and gambling bans have been lifted.
So long as everyone cooperates I don’t imagine life time bans will be coming, hefty fines, draft pick loss, international spending limits and suspensions all seem likely though.
I think that they should be forced to remove Luhnow and Hinch and they should be replaced by Dave Stewart and Bobby Valentine.
Now that’s harsh.
But appropriate.
If you won’t abide by today’s rules, suffer yesteryear’s.
Torres. That was super clever.
Make that Rueben Almora JR.
The thing is it likely goes well beyond even the banging. There was a whistleblower on twitter nearly a month ago as shown here : https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/dw1u4g/astros_sign_stealing_video_footage_megathread_for/f7i9dui/?context=3
Saying they are using buzzers in their shoes. There also have been pictures of tape, and buzzers, etc. I think the banging on the trashcans is just the tip of the iceberg. My issue is when people say “all teams are doing this.” Maybe some teams are doing something, but I have a hard time believing it is to this extent. This isn’t a paid employee trying to study a pitcher tipping pitches, then relaying that to do the dugout on what the players should look for. This is using technology to cheat real time. That is a much bigger issue.
I wonder if this is something where someone is going to be made an example of. I wonder how much more the league knows that the general public does not, and how deep this actually goes. If they are using trash cans, and buzzers, etc I think it is very unrealistic to think that it stops here. I think it is also is very unlikely that they didn’t have some sort of mechanism in place on the road as well. When you are looking at home vs road splits I think you are doing a major disservice, because you cannot isolate what games they had it vs what games they did not and what players used it versus what players did not. The obvious offenders are obvious, but the Houston Asterisks also are going to mess up the legacy of other players. From what I have seen, it doesn’t look like Altuve was doing it. Yet for the rest of his career he will be associated with cheating, even if he didn’t do it. A bad look all the way around.
That whistleblower doesn’t get dugouts are filmed all through the game and tape and buzzers would be seen.
The trashcan banging: how are RUBBER cans making metallic sounds?
The ones yelling loudest have bones to pick with the Astros because of personal (Fiers) or bigger reasons.
Folks need to see reality: there’s a LOT to be challenged that isn’t.
Stop being “guilty until proven innocent.”
You keep mentioning this trash can and throwing your confusing info around. I’ve watched quite a few of these clips and the sound isn’t metallic at all, it distinctly sounds like someone hitting one of these resin or harder polyethylene cans.
I’ve read this Reddit thread. Clearly an insider who had already talked to the press. Posted around the same time Taubmann got fired.
If you look at this guys other comments. He says at one point during one of the WS game threads that it’s amazing how the Astros are so much better at knowing which pitch is coming.
So the good players got a buzzer in their shoe and the bad players had to use a trashcan? I don’t get it.
Those are different time frames, correct? If you are going to cheat, and know you are under a microscope, why would you be looking for a method that is more difficult to catch?
“It doesn’t look like Altuve was doing it” ?
So he just politely opted out of all the the cheating the entire organization was doing around him, at roughly the same time he magically became a power hitter and started drawing way more walks, which are easy outside indicators of knowing when breaking balls are coming?
I mean Altuve clearly could of been doing it. I have no horse in the race, it doesn’t matter to me. Everything I have read specifically said certain players opted out of it, and no one has linked an at bat where they heard a sound with him, yet basically every other player has an at bat via Jomboy or other sources. When I picture Altuve I picture him taking horrible swings at breaking balls way outside the zone, in the dirt, etc. That could clearly be from getting the signal wrong, but that doesn’t have to be the case. There is no real change in his swing percentage, no real change in chase percentage, etc. The only real difference is the percentage of pitches he rcvd in the zone fell substantially. He also chased more curve/sliders after so that sort of flies in the face of him stopping chasing.
i wonder if something we see taken away from the Astros is the ability to have any IPads in the dug out.
I think this would be a move that affects the entire league, not just the Astros
Under the “make the punishment fit the crime” heading, how about reducing their home schedule by one game per team played, and moving that game to the other team’s home park? After all, you can’t steal signs with your outfield camera if the game isn’t being played in your own park.
Note they had a better record AWAY in 2015, so this is illogical.
Facts:
2017 record:
Home: 48–33;
Away: 53–28
This is why we smell something fishy with the claims you all are making.
Who’s this “we”? You and the mouse in your pocket?
One year’s record is irrelevant to this proposed punishment. What it’s really about is revenue. Reducing the gate by over 10%, as a schedule penalty would do, is going to (1) cost the team a LOT of money, (2) spread the pain over the whole organization (since a very large number of people, not all of them players, are at least complicit in this), (3) make the media package less of a good deal for advertisers, etc., and (4) get local fans ticked off to the point that they don’t want it to happen again.
Catchers can safely put down a single sign if the battery and infield can simply look into the dugout for a simple code from a coach changing with each pitch. It can be as easy as changing the posture of the coach.
Everything the astros have done has permeated other orgs now since they got away with it for so long before being caught. Several managers in MLB came from the astros. Elias at the Orioles GM etc. Then you have other teams fell like they have to do it just to keep up and compete with them. MLB has to set an example from the ones that started all this mess.
After the investigation is complete and we know exactly who cheated and was involved. The following punishments should happen:
1. All individual awards and team awards should be stripped from them since 2017.
2. Anyone with direct knowledge in executive office should be banned for life ie Lunhow, Taubman etc.
3. Any player that cheated should be banned for life.
4. Hit them on the back end as well….They should lose prospects and draft picks.
5. If the owner Mclain knew about it, then he should be forced to sale the team.
6. None of the players should be allowed ever in the HOF.
Basically if you knew about it and/or participated in it , you are punished. Including the owner. Their should also be an audit and investigation of emails in the organization as well. This cheating is disgusting. These people/players/execs etc should be shamed from ever stepping in another mlb venue again.
ALL not true.
I know cameras filmed the dugouts last year and year prior.
The video evidence is weird – a rubber trashcan making METAL sounds?
Fiers was livid he wasn’t on the playoff team and then released.
He’s got a bone to pick – and I’m wondering who is wanting him he’d do this.
Oddly that vibrating claim started while folks pointed out the team did better AWAY that year.
Oh and your demands?
Unless we also remove EVERY title win by a team with a doper retroactively because PEDs are banned:
It won’t happen.
Oh and FYI the REAL reason this team is doing well?
The 29 owners FORCING the Astros too early to the AL West to be sold.
YOU all moved them out of the competitive NL Central thinking they’d remain clowns.
And please stop the comparison to the Black Sox.
They THREW the series to the other team. They didn’t cheat to win. *sigh*
I think the Astros tanking to pick top 5 in the draft 5 years in a row helped a little more than the AL west.
When you pick first overall 3 times in a row you will get some good players. Crazy but true.
That is a fact, but even before the NL to AL move they were having 80+ loss seasons, and for FAR longer than this alleged scandal.
Mrs. Luhnow, you know that Rob Manfred isn’t going to change his mind because of hot takes in comments,don’t you?
Where this is in error is the talk about PROVEN cheating.
Folks are not seeing details in their hatred of the Astros.
A. Fiers was NOT on the 2017 playoff team and then released after the season.
He was VERY salty about it, so – unless he returns his ring and bonus money – this REEKS revenge.
B. The Dodgers are salty that Yuli wasn’t banned from the Series after his racist gesture. That decision let him help win games 5&7 of the Series.
C. Yankees angry? – 5 words:
Decade of no World Series.
The “evidence” is suspect too:
1. The “banging on trashcans” – guys, I hear metallic clangs.
The trashcans in the dugouts are RUBBER/plastic.
Don’t make the same noise.
2. Monitors – challenges allow one person to monitor Game in DELAYED Time.
And they’re filmed constantly: so WHY this accusation now and not sooner with proof?
3. Whistles – stupidest accusation of all. Folks CONSTANTLY whistle in games, BOTH sides.
It’s ludicrous really to use as a claim.
4. Bullpen calls: in case you all haven’t noticed: the team’s BP is wide open.
Meaning, kinda odd they’d be making any type of signal that visible to viewers.
Finally
5. It’s LEGAL to watch video from previous games.
You’re saying honestly the other 29 teams are stupid or not taking advantage of that too.
The Astros will get punished just because of the whining.
But actually investigating? – this isn’t cut and dry folks so unless you want the same treatment of your team is accused? Pull back.
Lol – why on earth would anyone give the Astros the benefit of the doubt? They have proven to be bad actors across virtually every spectrum of team management. This than less than a month removed from them trying to bully a female reporter and hope that the negative press goes away.
So very funny that you think its other salty teams that are inventing these stories. The Yankees won 4 titles in 5 years – did we hear stories like this? The Giants and their 3 WS? It’s amazing all of this bad press that the Astros attracts from their big huge one WS win. A bunch of jealous haters are salty bro!
A. That woman was out for ruining Osuna. She was biased and demanded an apology letter.
No question this is continuing for appeasement.
B. Yankees also had at least one PED user in most of those WS wins. That too is cheating, but no peep because they’re the Yankees.
C. Let’s be truthful: if it were up to certain groups in the MLB, the Astros wouldn’t have the trophy.
Yankees and Dodgers ARE on record saying the Astros were GIVEN their title because of Harvey.
Selig meddled with the 2005 World Series forcing the Astros to keep their roof open, and ensuring the White Sox won.
He again meddled during Ike forcing the Astros to play a “neutral site” Against the Cubs 90 miles fromChicago and at the site of the team vying for the wild card (Brewers).
Those are NL scandals by the MLB.
The 29 owners are angry that moving the Astros to the AL didn’t hurt them but let them thrive.
You want the BEST punishment? Put them back in the Central against the Cubs and Cardinals.
Then they don’t have to tarnish The Yankeesvand Dodgers’ amounted spots in the WS.
Holy cow man, this is an Olympic level display of mental gymnastics.
This going to be age so horribly for you. The reason everyone is pissed is because its, once again, the Astros acting in bad character. This is the 3rd time, of varying degrees, that they’ve looked bad for the LEAGUE in 1 season.
Yeah, all hand painted by the whining Yankees, vengeful Dodgers and vindictive Fiers who was angry he didn’t get to play and was released.
Look dude, UNTIL Fiers returns his “ill gotten” ring and money, I call this revenge and “put them in their place.”
I say roll them up in a carpet and throw them off a bridge!
I disagree that the vacated college titles are “farcical,” and I don’t understand why that gets assumed as a universally held belief in conversations on the topic. The point of the vacated title punishment isn’t to somehow make amends for or undo what happened, it’s to forever and always tie the cheating directly to the winning in the thoughts and minds of people who talk about the teams in question, which it does very effectively.
The most common criticism of it I hear is that everyone knows what happened, and the games obviously can’t be replayed or scrubbed from people’s memories, so the punishment is pointless. I disagree. Of course everyone will still remember what happened on the field, and the title won’t suddenly be given to the Yankees or Dodgers, but making them take the banner down and putting an asterisk in the record books has a real impact on the legacy of this Astros team. You can’t undo the harm that was done by cheating, but you can send a message to everyone involved in MLB going forward that this kind of team-wide cheating that was actively sponsored by the coaching staff and front office (not just turned a blind eye to, like in the steroid era) will not be tolerated, and anyone guilty will not be celebrated for anything they achieve while cheating.
Obviously with the NCAA, there’s a lot of extra baggage involved because of how widespread recruitment violations are and the innately unethical setup of forced amateurism, but whether or not the NCAA is a good organization or the punishments were right, the vacated titles for USC football and Louisville basketball have a tangible effect on how those teams are discussed and remembered. It’s the single most salient detail about those teams for most fans.
Ask roger maris if the asterisk mattered. Of course it did
If MLB punishes the Astros too lightly, the lesson for other teams would be that cheating pays – it pays very well.
They have a chance to set a meaningful standard for integrity. They should make the most of it.
MLB should consider lifetime bans for all executive level employees who were in on the cheating, including the owner.
They should consider forcing the Astros to play 2020 on the road – no home games.
The fine should be calculated by not only the revenue generated by the WS win, but also by the Increase in the value of the franchise Now compared to pre-cheating. It could be hundreds of millions of $. The commissioner could divide the $ between teams as an effort to improve competitive balance.
Beyond that – they could force the Astros to change their team colors – maybe pink and yellow combo.
Legally they can’t force all road games. (FYI that isn’t a deterrent and Houston as a city could sue the MLB).
That’s cheating too.
Your fine claim is ridiculously unfair… unless you’re willing to fine every team who won a WS with a doper?
Uniform change is discrimination, and that one could lead to a lawsuit.
Yes, the MLB could schedule all road games. What would the municipal government of Houston use to prove their standing in a lawsuit against MLB?
What is unfair is cheating to win a world’s series. I think my fine idea is perfectly fair. I would make it $100M over 5 years – the cost of a 2nd tier free agent pitcher. They can afford it.
What “discrimination” would you see in a uniform change? Who would have legal standing to sue?re
Where did you go to law school? I want to make sure my kids go elsewhere.
Folks damning the Astros: how would you feel if YOUR team was being found guilty before all the evidence is found?
Let us be analytical here:
The three accusing the team – Fiers, Yankees and Dodgers: ALL have a bone to pick with the team.
Fiers: was not on the 2017 playoff team and was released at the end of the season.
He hasn’t returned his ring and money yet, so that should be questioned.
Dodgers: angry Yuli wasn’t banned from the rest of the series after his racist gesture.
Note, Yuli helped the team win games 5&7, moreso than “pitch cheats.”
Yankees: Astros kept them out of two World Series appearances on the past 10 years and out of the ALCS a third.
They also CONSTANTLY accuse opponents of cheating too.
••••••••
Then, we look at the “evidence” from “whistleblowers.”
The film with “loud bangs” – dugouts have RUBBER trashcans. Why do the thuds sound metallic?
Whistling – this one is the most absurd of all. There is whistling EVERYWHERE ALL throughout the game.
Notice the newest allegation of buzzers on shoes came after folks pointed this out AND the FACT the team did better AWAY in ‘17.
Oh that alone SCREAMS set up and jealousy.
Screens is odd too: folks are claiming they’ve seen monitors in the dugout, but now turn around and say the team isn’t letting the dugout be filmed.
Which is it folks?
No I know: they’re being filmed, so goes to question Why not reported in ‘17?
Bullpen is ridiculous given it’s damn easy to film their BP at work.
Let’s be real:
The Astros WON’T lose their title.
Why? They have legit reason to demand every team that had a doper before the steroid laws and even now be stripped.
That’s a lot of big pocketbook team trophies.
They’ll get fined, and moreso to appease the poor sport teams.
Look – 29 owners bullied the Astros into the AL West from the extremely difficult NL central.
Now they’re angry the Astros have advanced to playoff 4 times in the 7 as AL and two of those WS.
Meanwhile the anointed ones… uh Yankees, are being “overthrown by a usurper” so it’s payback.
You all go on your dreams.
I’ll live in facts, and I’ll know if the MLB is cowering you folks over facts.
only thing missing from this comment was you declaring that you are a FEMALE.
TL;DR
Anytime someone has to use caps lock to accentuate their point I immediately lose interest.
If it was my team I would be ashamed of them. There’s no point in rooting for a cheater.
You didn’t just skip Logic 101 on Melmac, you skipped English, too.
And I thought Donald Trump’s Twitter account was the best place for nonsensical ramblings…
It’s time to start punishing teams by taking away championships. The 1991 and 1987 Twins cheated by using their stadium’s air system (google it), the 1919 Reds benefited from the White Sox throwing the World Series. Time to do the right thing and stop rewarding cheating.
1919: No champions
1987: award WS win to the Cardinals
1991: award the WS win to the Braves
2017: award WS to the Dodgers
Or just have no champions those years but cheaters shouldn’t be allowed championships.
Why punish the Reds for something the losing team did?
I like this. Cards get 1985 World Series because of replay on Denkinger call and 1987 because of the AC.
I think it will be draft picks and someone gets banned. I wonder if the Astros can somehow attach this to taubman so luhnow is protected and only someone who is already gone is banned.
On the other hand it is harder to prove for luhnow that he knew nothing about this and frame this as a single person incident because of the big number of people involved. Much easier to oversee this than a single specialist hacking a computer and it is kinda hard to believe that all the players and the manger knew but the the GM didn’t,
On the other hand banning luhnow woyld be huge. Coppy likely was on his way out anyway as his rebuild wasn’t really translating to mlb success yet and so the braves had an easier time sacrificing him but luhnow is probably the hottest GM in baseball and was on his way to a hall of fame career so banning him would be a blow to the Astros.
The biggest punishment for the Astros is anyway that their window is tainted. In early 2018 the Astros were the hottest thing in sports, a bunch of nerds revolutionizing player dev and sabermetrics and going from a 100 loss team to maybe the best team ever and then 3 incidents happened and now they are wife beater and misogyny supporters and cheaters. This is probably a bit unfair since other teams did this too, but 3 such incidents in a bit more than a year add up and make people question everything even if their player dev is really that good their story now has changed. Sucks for the Astros but their public relations also were pretty bad especially in the taubman incident.
Those 3 things aren’t related but many will put them together, partially because people like to see a giant fall, especially if the story sounded too good to be true.
Luhnow is the hottest GM going bc his team cheated. He can’t point at his team and say he built a genuine winner. The Astros successes in his tenure are now tainted. No one can look at the team and discern they were genuinely successful. The recent teams have the scarlet letter of cheating attached to their success now. So, since Luhnow allowed this to occur to the franchise the only way to move forward will be to have the franchise be subject to severe organizational discipline and to remove Luhnow and any direct lieutenants from the game for life. This includes Hinch bc of his hostile attitude towards accusations of cheating to the media, especially during press conferences while in the playoffs – the games biggest stage. An organization is not bigger than the game. A point needs to be made. And it’s the only way for the organization and the game itself to truly move forward. Anything less will be a true disappointment.
There is what the Astros deserve, and there is what the Astros can be practically given. The key factor is none of what has been talked about, but rather how much other teams have also cheated and what the Astros know and can prove.
While baseball fans want blood, MLB wants this issue to go away as quiet as possible. The latter may not be possible if they penalize the Astros so much that the various people involved decided they will say screw it and talk things that should be talked about on their way out. Of course this is based on the assumption that other teams cheat and that the Astros know some stuff about such things, but it’s a pretty good assumption quite honestly. If the Astros care as much about sign stealing as they look, they for sure do their damnest to know what other teams try to do. And it’s hard to imagine no one else has crossed the line.
I think what ends up happening is draft picks lost, international signing money lost, maybe a suspension here or there, but nothing long term that truly cost anyone high up. Cause the goal here from MLB isnt doing what’s right, it’s doing what best protect the MLB organization
Would be a significant miscalculation by MLB to pursue such a tactic. If the door is perceived open to cheating — loss of draft picks and bonus money is nothing in exchange for the revenues of playoffs and world series — then the rush will be on and baseball won’t be able to recover credibility at that point without essentially sport breaking disciplinary actions.
There are lots of ways to prevent sign stealing, the most obvious way is to not have people communicate with hand signals in the 21st century.
The only reason this issue exist is because MLB moves at speed of molasses when it come keeping up with the times
Am I the only one that thinks the punishment should include a postseason ban? Is that an option? to me, it seems the most fitting punishment.
Their season ticket holders demand their money back. The Astros finish 60-102 because the players have no incentive. Fans boycott and their attendance is second lowest (thank heaven for the Marlins!) MLB will never do anything that hurts their business that much.
It’s never good when the investigator starts by saying, “Jeff, how have you been since we spoke last month?”
Luhnow is the hottest GM going bc his team cheated. He can’t point at his team and say he built a genuine winner. The Astros successes in his tenure are now tainted. No one can look at the team and discern they were genuinely successful. The recent teams have the scarlet letter of cheating attached to their success now. So, since Luhnow allowed this to occur to the franchise the only way to move forward will be to have the franchise be subject to severe organizational discipline and to remove Luhnow and any direct lieutenants from the game for life. This includes Hinch bc of his hostile attitude towards accusations of cheating to the media, especially during press conferences while in the playoffs – the games biggest stage. An organization is not bigger than the game. A point needs to be made. And it’s the only way for the organization and the game itself to truly move forward. It would be a significant miscalculation by MLB to pursue appeasement with the hope of making this seem like ‘nothing to see here.’ If the door is perceived open to cheating — loss of draft picks and bonus money is nothing in exchange for the revenues of playoffs and world series — then the rush will be on and baseball won’t be able to recover credibility at that point without essentially sport breaking disciplinary actions.
I played ACC baseball in the early 00’s. We played an MLB team in Spring training. I could take all the steroids I could fit in my system, and I would bat like .130 off Verlander.
Tell me what pitch was coming every time, and I’d hit .300 off of him. Justin Verlander without deception wouldn’t make it out of AA.
This is the largest scandal to hit MLB since the Black Sox scandal.
It makes perfect sense to me that sign stealing is a huge advantage to the hitter.
Yet, all the stats, splits and other data I have seen show that the Astros have a very similar offensive profile on the road vs at home since 2017. If they could match or exceed their offensive output without sign stealing what good was it to steal signs?
I wonder if there is a way to identify in the stats what the actual advantage of sign stealing is?
For MLB purposes, it doesn’t matter whether sign stealing is effective or a placebo, just as it doesn’t matter whether PEDs help or not or whether flaunting international signing rules brings in a superstar or a dud.
What matters is compliance with the rules.
OK, but it’s against the rules because everyone, including myself, assumes that sign stealing gives the hitter a huge advantage. I’ve seen players saying it will cost young players jobs, etc.
What if up to 3 years of Astros offensive data shows it doesn’t have a measurable impact on offensive output?
I find that incredibly fascinating in and of itself. Something that would be worth a deeper dive into the numbers.
Lots of rules are arbitrary. Doesn’t mean they can be waved off.
In the case of sign stealing (done legally or otherwise) it probably helps some players (especially those who have trouble with breaking balls) by helping them lay off certain pitches. (It’s easier to stop mid-swing than to belatedly try to catch up to modern fastballs so in a sign stealing environment slow bat players will assume everything is a fastball until told otherwise.) Note that the Astros are accused of flagging breaking pitches. So, no warning meant a fastball was most likely. Not a guarantee of catching up but it ups the odds.
Other players with good (and better) hit tools it might hurt by distracting them. Those can ignore it or tell their handlers not to warn them.
So it won’t help everybody on every pitch but it very likely changes the odds in favor of the hitters, as a group.
Maybe they’d have been that much worse at home without it…
Fundamentally, the issue isn’t sign stealing by itself, but rather violation of MLB rules.
The rule against using technology to steal signs is as binding as the rule against PEDs. Or the rule against illegal drugs or the rules governing international signings.
MLB teams are governed by a series of rules and teams can’t be allowed to pick and choose which rules tbey will follow and which rules they’ll ignore.
Violating the anti-tech spying rule is *exactly* as much a violation as the other cited cases, in Boston, Atlanta, and St. Louis. You are either following the rules or you aren’t.
It’s all or nothing.
MLB’s job is to document whether the rules were violated and which, if any, aggravating behavior occured, which is where cooperation or obfuscation comes in. Because mandatory cooperation is also a rule.
As for penalties, stripping away titles or players isn’t in play.
But, given the partnership nature of MLB itself, Crane himself *is* in play.
Given the Astros recent history of behavior and the “benefit of the game” clause, Crane could be forced out. It has happened before. It might happen again
It is his watch, his guidance, his responsibility.
Adding up everything, from tanking, to exploitative trades, to rules violation, MLB might decide the game is better without “win at all costs” Crane.
He isn’t a well-loved partner and the rest of MLB might want him gone. This might be the excuse they want.
I wonder if specific players could get punished for using the system while not actively engaging in the capturing of the information. Say, batter A is signaled what pitch is coming his way but doesn’t actually participate in sign stealing. In fact Batter A might have received this benefit 300 or so times over the course of a season, if this cheating was limited to home games. Most of the discussion has been around Cora and Beltran, front office management, and individuals potentially involved in the planing and actual sign theft. But, I wonder if individual players who knew the information was stolen and were benefiting from it in half of their plate appearances could face punishment too. If, for example, a clubhouse attendant was corking bats for players, and the players knew and used the bats, the players would be punished. Is this different?
Would it be too extreme to open up every player not on the 25 man roster to the Rule 5, remove all draft picks for 2020, and limit their intl money to $0?
No.
It might even be mild.
Most of their talent is relatively young MLB players. Losing high minors prospects might stall their pipeline but going after the 40-man won’t harm the next wave.
At a glance the cheating didn’t help much in 2017 according to home road splits. Their road numbers were better for BA, OBP and SLG. Their SB numbers were better at home however. Has anyone done any statistical analysis to determine if the cheating significantly helped them. And really what I’m getting at is did the players embrace the competitive advantage and actually benefit from it?
Yasmani Grandals comment today was very concerning as well. Maybe more teams do it?
Make them ineligible for the postseason and it’ll stop
As Buster Olney reported, the Astros were fined $500,000 for the filming the 2018 Indians dugout incident so that route has already been taken.The next step is bans for the coaching staff and in this case the front office since they already have a track record of culpability.
The everyone does it argument didn’t work in junior high and it won’t work here,the Astros were doing stuff so blatantly they were asking to get caught.
https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1194348775965437952?s=19
i think a point- even if the players don’t get punished by the league- when those batters come up for free agency in the near future- their numbers are going to get discounted similar to the Coors Field or PED effects…. These guys are going to have to prove starting in 20 that was their real talent, and not just helped out by this…..
It’s simple—punish the guilty individuals AND announce that the Astros’ 2020 draft pool is $0. The penalty has to be harsh enough that no one will even *think* about pulling this crap again.
If you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’. That being said, once you get caught, I fully support public flogging. Maybe castration for a second offense? Third offense…..death.