The NL-Worst (!) Cardinals Are Panicking

The Cardinals snapped their eight-game losing streak on Sunday thanks to Paul Goldschmidt’s three-homer day, but not before finding new ways to embarrass themselves this weekend. Saturday’s loss dropped them to 10–24, their worst record through 34 games since 1907. On top of that, that same day the team declared that Willson Contreras, the marquee free-agent catcher signed in December to replace the retired Yadier Molina, would no longer be the primary backstop but would instead spend his time as a designated hitter and corner outfielder, drastically reducing his value. A day later, St. Louis backtracked, announcing that Contreras will DH but have a path to returning to catching duties.
What in the world?
This is jaw-dropping, panicky stuff coming from what was supposed to be a well-run organization. The Cardinals entered the season having reached the playoffs in four straight years and won at least 90 games in each of the last three full seasons; twice in those four years they took home division titles, including last year, when they went 93–69. But more than 20% into this season, they own the National League’s worst record at 11–24, three games worse than the Rockies (14–21), the NL’s next-worst team, and only three games ahead of the godforsaken A’s (8–27) for the majors’ worst record.
Nobody expected this to happen. In our preseason staff poll, 23 out of 27 respondents picked the Cardinals to win the division. Other outlets, including Las Vegas oddsmakers, picked them to win as well, and so did our projection systems. As you might surmise from their NL-worst record, they’ve experienced the largest drop in Playoff Odds of any team:
| Date | Proj W | Proj L | Proj Win% | GB | Win Div | Clinch Bye | Clinch WC | Playoffs | Win WS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Preaseason | 86.9 | 75.1 | .536 | 0 | 50.6% | 20.7% | 16.8% | 67.4% | 4.7% |
| Through May 7 | 78.8 | 83.2 | .486 | 9 | 13.5% | 1.3% | 7.2% | 20.7% | 1.1% |
| Change | -8.1 | +8.1 | -.050 | +9 | -37.1% | -19.4% | -9.6% | -46.7% | -3.6% |
The Cardinals are off to their worst 35-game start in half a century, which at least beats their worst 34-game start in over a century; they haven’t been anywhere near this bad since 1995:
| Rk | Season | W | L | W-L% | TmRDiff | Pyth |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1903 | 9 | 26 | .257 | -97 | .253 |
| 2 | 1907 | 10 | 25 | .286 | -73 | .268 |
| 3T | 1973 | 11 | 24 | .314 | -29 | .407 |
| 2023 | 11 | 24 | .314 | -19 | .445 | |
| 5 | 1972 | 12 | 23 | .343 | -39 | .376 |
| 6T | 1902 | 13 | 22 | .371 | -66 | .325 |
| 1918 | 12 | 22 | .343 | -38 | .360 | |
| 1919 | 13 | 22 | .371 | -46 | .339 | |
| 1925 | 13 | 22 | .371 | -10 | .474 | |
| 10T | 1908 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -18 | .420 |
| 1912 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -43 | .388 | |
| 1940 | 13 | 21 | .371 | -37 | .396 | |
| 1947 | 13 | 21 | .371 | -13 | .455 | |
| 1975 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -11 | .466 | |
| 1976 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -21 | .432 | |
| 1978 | 14 | 21 | .400 | 0 | .500 | |
| 1980 | 14 | 21 | .400 | 10 | .529 | |
| 1986 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -8 | .472 | |
| 1995 | 14 | 21 | .400 | -24 | .433 |
Those Deadball Era teams were gruesome — last-place teams in an eight-team league, notable for the presence of a Hall of Famer here (Three-Finger Brown in 1903) and there (Jake Beckley in 1907). Both the 1972 and ’73 teams featured four future Hall of Famers in Lou Brock, Bob Gibson, Joe Torre, and Ted Simmons, none at their absolute zenith but all good enough to make the All-Star squad in at least one of those years. The 1972 team went 75–81 in the strike-shortened season, the ’73 one 81–81; they lost the NL East by a game and a half, doomed by their wretched start.
You’ll note from the table above that this team isn’t close to having the worst run differential or Pythagenpat record of the bunch, but the 2023 edition has gone 1–7 in one-run games. Sequencing and timing have been issues, to the point that the Cardinals are five wins below their Pythagenpat and BaseRuns records, tied with the Cubs for the majors’ largest gap in the former and one game behind them in the latter.
The Cardinals have been spiraling downward ever since manager Oli Marmol called out Tyler O’Neill for getting thrown out at home plate after not running hard enough during a 4–1 loss to the Braves on April 4, when the skipper called O’Neill’s effort “unacceptable.” O’Neill, who was limited to 96 games last year by hamstring strains in both legs and whose sprint speed has declined from the 97th percentile to the 77th, disputed the assertion that he wasn’t hustling and took issue with the manager’s public airing of what could have been a private conversation. With that, one suddenly had to wonder whether Marmol had significantly shortened the horizon of his continued employment via a desperate show of authority. The Cardinals fell to 2–3 that night and haven’t been within reach of .500 since.
If Marmol made a mess out of that situation himself, he’s got a multitude of collaborators in the Contreras situation, starting with president of baseball operations John Mozeliak. With Molina retiring and with none of the organization’s other catchers ready to take over, the team signed the going-on-31-year-old Contreras to a five-year, $87.5 million deal in December, the largest deal they’ve ever given to a free agent besides Matt Holliday, whom they retained via a seven-year, $120 million deal in January 2010 after trading for him the previous July.
When they signed Contreras, it was clear that the Cardinals were getting a bat-first catcher, but they did see him as a catcher first and foremost; concerns about his game-calling and staff-handling had depressed his market around the trade deadline last summer, as teams considered him a part-time backstop. Last year, he hit .243/.349/.466 with 22 homers and a 132 wRC+, second among players who had at least 400 plate appearances and 60 games caught. Contreras caught 72 games, starting 61 of them and DHing 39 times; he took 65% of his PA as a catcher. Behind the plate, he was 3.5 runs below average via our pitch framing metric, 2.5 below via that of Baseball Prospectus, and average via that of Statcast — all much better than his 2017–19 numbers, which neared or reached double digits, albeit in more innings behind the plate. Meanwhile, Statcast’s new catching metrics had him four below average in blocking but three above in preventing stolen bases; BP had him 0.2 runs below average in the former and 1.1 above average in the latter. In all, the numbers paint a picture of a catcher not without his weaknesses but certainly playable given his offense.
While showing his typical patience at the plate, Contreras is currently hitting .265/.341/.393 for a 107 wRC+; he’s making good contact (92.1 mph average exit velocity, 8.9% barrel rate, 47.8% hard-hit rate) but is well short of his .460 xSLG. Defensively, he’s about on pace for the numbers he put up last year save for already reaching -3 blocking runs, but the samples are still small enough to prevent firm conclusions.
As to what suddenly turned the Cardinals against his catching, this smacks of management finding a scapegoat to cover up for the assembly of a mediocre rotation that ranked 20th in our Positional Power Rankings. The unit is currently 23rd in WAR (1.3) and ERA (5.33) and 20th in FIP (4.80). Excluding Adam Wainwright, who allowed four runs in his five-inning season debut on Saturday, four of the five starters (Miles Mikolas, Steven Matz, Jack Flaherty, and fill-in Jake Woodford) have ERAs of 5.70 or above and FIPs of 4.93 or above; Jordan Montgomery (3.29 ERA, 2.87 FIP) is the exception. The unit doesn’t miss enough bats, ranking 25th in strikeout rate (20.1%) and 22nd in strikeout-walk differential (12.1%). It doesn’t help that they’re also 20th in home run rate (1.38 per nine).
The bullpen was supposed to be the stronger end of the staff, and at first glance it is. After ranking 12th in our preseason PPR, it’s third in strikeout rate (27.7%), fifth in K-BB% (17.6%), seventh in FIP (3.66), 13th in WAR (1.0), and 18th in ERA (3.88). For as strong as some of those rankings are, the unit is last in the majors in WPA (-4.13) and Clutch (-3.82), both by sizable margins. Of St. Louis’ six relievers with an average leverage index (pLI) of 1.0 or better, five (closer Ryan Helsley, setup man Giovanny Gallegos, middle men Jordan Hicks and Drew VerHagen, plus the since-demoted Andre Pallante) have WPAs below zero. Long story short, they’ve allowed runs at especially bad times, hence the 1–7 record in one-run games.
Though they praised Contreras’ communication skills after signing him, Marmol and Mozeliak both seem dissatisfied with the catcher’s communication with the staff and don’t like what they’re seeing. Here’s Marmol from Saturday via MLB.com:
Marmol said the decision to move Contreras out of the catching role was made “by watching the game.” He added, “There are certain things in ways we operate that Willson is still taking to and learning — and it’s a difficult thing coming from a different organization and learning all of it.” Marmol, who chose not to be specific about the areas that need improvement, added, “So, we have an internal strategy to help with all that and we’ll start moving in that direction over the next several weeks.”
And here’s Mozeliak on Sunday, noting that the new pitch clock is a factor, via The Athletic’s Katie Woo:
“You’ve got to have confidence with people in certain roles, that’s what it comes down to,” Mozeliak said. “We’ll be patient, but look, again, this has not gone how we would have thought. You’ve got to remind yourself it’s a long season, but it’s certainly gotten off on the wrong foot. … I do (still believe in Contreras). But some of the things we expect, some of the things about the game we’ve become accustomed to, I think he realizes it’s going to require more preparation. Now the question is, can that happen? I guess we’ll have to find out.”
“When you ask, where is this on the pitchers’ side, the difference is, this year you have a pitch clock,” Mozeliak explained. “In the past, if hypothetically you were my catcher and you keep asking me to throw a slider, I could just step off. Eventually, if you wanted to burn one of your mound visits, we could talk it over. But the clock has changed the dynamic of the interaction. It does speed things up. We need to come up with a strategy of how the communication between our catcher and pitchers can become more seamless or candidly, more timely, to allow if they’re not on the same page.
The Cardinals are tied for first in the majors with 13 pitcher pitch timer violations, but those are only estimated to have cost the team 0.9 runs.
One problem for the Cardinals is that less Contreras behind the plate doesn’t bring about the second coming of Molina, or even Jeff Mathis. Andrew Knizner, who’s 28 years old, has hit .204/.288/.291 (67 wRC+) in 595 career PA; even after collecting a pair of doubles on Sunday, he’s batting .205/.244/.333 (59 wRC+) this year. Defensively, by our metrics he’s 17.9 runs below average in framing in 1,344 career innings, including -8.7 runs in 685.1 innings last year. By BP’s metrics he was seven runs below average, and by Statcast he was six below, though he was four above average in blocking. In other words, he wasn’t good enough to prevent the Cardinals from concluding that their big investment over the winter should be a new catcher, yet somehow he’s now the player whom they believe should be starting.
Tres Barrera, who was recalled from Triple-A Memphis on Saturday, is 28 and a career .231/.317/.315 (73 wRC+) hitter in 162 PA; the minimal data in his 382 innings behind the plate shows him above average in framing and average in blocking. And carrying three catchers doesn’t just cost the team an extra roster spot. In any key late-inning situation, somebody has to pinch-hit for one of them, and thus a contradiction rears its head: the suddenly-vaunted pitcher-handling skills of Knizner or Barrera won’t be available at a crucial point in the game. Hmmmm.
If all this doesn’t seem laughable enough, there’s the quick reversal of Contreras’ non-catching role. It briefly looked as though he would be shoehorned into the outfield, one that was already overcrowded enough for Mozeliak to cite playing time issues. “[G]uys just aren’t getting into rhythm, [with their] expected playing time,” is what he said when demoting top prospect Jordan Walker less than two weeks ago. Contreras does have 35 career games (24 starts) in left field and is a couple of runs below average by DRS and UZR. More Mozeliak via The Athletic:
“We won’t have him in the outfield… I know that came out yesterday, but after talking with him, it’s basically going to be more in the DH role right now. And there’s light at the end of the tunnel to get back behind the plate.
“I don’t anticipate (Contreras in the outfield) unless there’s some sort of emergency reason,” Mozeliak added. “Everything was moving quickly yesterday. A lot of things were getting out there. His hope is he gets a chance to get behind the plate. That’s what we’re going to work toward.”
Uh, ok. Maybe this is just a temporary setback, a wake-up call for Contreras to do things The Cardinal Way, but if it does wind up being his transition out of catching, the Cardinals won’t get as much value out of his contract. Via Dan Szymborski, as a catcher, he projects to produce 11.1 WAR over the five-year deal, which ZiPS values at $89.2 million; as a left fielder, he projects to produce 5.5 WAR, a value of $39.1 million. ZiPS assumes he’s a -5 run left fielder based on his age, his speed data, his limited experience in the outfield, and historical moves of catchers to the outfield. That’s pretty much DH-caliber defense, so I don’t think the reversal to keep him out of the field changes things appreciably — and all of this is with Contreras getting 10–15% more PA as an outfielder or DH. Via Dan’s projections, Contreras would have to be worth about seven runs above average per 150 games in left field for his valuation to match that of him as a catcher.
Projections aside, using Contreras as the primary DH cuts into the playing time of Nolan Gorman, who’s hitting .255/.347/.510 (133 wRC+) with seven homers, tied with Goldschmidt for the team high. The 22-year-old Gorman is at DH because he was blocked at third base by Nolan Arenado, and his work at second base has been brutal (-6 DRS, -10 RAA in 631.2 innings last year and this one), a liability behind the contact-oriented rotation.
As for the outfield, the Cardinals have been mixing and matching all over the place with lefties Lars Nootbaar and Alec Burleson, switch-hitter Dylan Carlson, and righties O’Neill and Walker. Only Nootbaar (137) and Walker (101) have a wRC+ of 100 or better; O’Neill (74, and now on the injured list as of Friday due to a lower back strain), Carlson (78), and Burleson (84) have struggled mightily, each with an OBP below .285. The righty-swinging Walker, the no. 11 prospect on our Top 100 Prospects list, made the jump from Double-A to the majors out of spring training and hit .319/.360/.489 (137 wRC+) while assembling a career-opening 12-game hitting streak. He then went just 5-for-26 (.192/.250/.231) over his next seven games, with four of those hits coming in the final three, and was optioned to Memphis, with Mozeliak deciding that the depth of the unit was a suddenly a problem.
To be fair, Walker’s 3.8% walk rate, 25.6% strikeout rate, and 40.4% chase rate were worrisome, and his defensive numbers were even worse than Gorman’s in a smaller sample; another converted third baseman, he’s got -5 DRS, -3.1 UZR, and -2 RAA in just 170 innings. So yes, he’s got things to work on in Triple-A, and if it means avoiding the stench of the current squad, that’s a bonus.
All of this, though, comes back to a roster that just doesn’t fit together, with too many DHs and back-end starters, and not enough playing time for a horde of young outfielders. Mozeliak and Marmol have already raised our eyebrows with several of their moves. At this point it feels like rubbernecking to see what they think of next.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
I didn’t expect this contract to age very well- 30+-year-old catcher multi-year commitments rarely do- but I never expected this. And from the Cardinals? I’m really surprised they’ve handled this so poorly. As a Cubs fan, there has always been begrudging respect for how the Cardinals have run their team so this is completely unexpected.
I’m not really sure what they expected from Contreras. It was widely known that he is a below-average framer and blocker. The pitch clock is new but they had all of March to get used to it. You paid him because he can hit, he’s an emotional leader, and he has a rocket arm. I truly don’t understand how this could have gone so wrong so quickly.
Its all about scape-goating. If the Cardinals were 24-10 no one would be talking about replacing Contreras. This is the coaching staff throwing the only guy under the bus who could potentially affect the entire pitching staff. I have to say some of the pitch-calling has been weird. Like when he called 7 straight sliders by Hicks. However, this has to be about more than that.
I predict Willson C will be back catching within a month, as this just makes no sense. That said, he may have a new manager calling the shots in a month as well. Could this be the worst run organization in baseball outside of Oakland or Denver, or may be actually the worst given their resources?
Nah. This is much more likely a blip. If you look at Pythagorean record or BaseRuns, they’re better than their record would indicate. Though they’re still not doing well, and they need to sort out their starting pitching. That’s going to be harder with Yadi gone, but this front office fields competitive teams every year. They’ll be fine. Now, CHW, on the other hand . . .
Looking forward to our St Louis Cardinals raising the Pythag Record World Series, come October
Calling the third most winnest team over the last 25 years the worst run organization in baseball maybe the most laughably ignorant comment I’ve seen on a Fangraphs chat, and that takes a lot of doing.
These mofos are awfully reactionary, huh? One has to assume they believed in Contreras ability to catch enough to support the bat at the time they signed him (otherwise, he’s not an $85m DH). But now they don’t. And Jordan Walker has a great spring training so they put him on the roster. Then he has one mediocre month, which a league average batting line for a 20 year old skipping AAA and learning a new position is actually pretty freaking good, and they send him out.
This is all just so funny (except for Walker – let’s hope they don’t screw him up). Especially for this organization. The schadefreude is just *chef’s kiss*. Let’s modify the old saying about quarterbacks to “if you have 8 outfielders, you actually have zero” (or one nootbar).
The fact is that the real problem is that the organization assembled a lousy rotation and they don’t seem to have any idea that they’ve done it. Everything else could have been fixed just by doing the obvious thing, which was in most cases nothing. I refuse to believe that Willson Contreras’s supposedly terrible game calling is responsible for Miles Mikolas having an xERA over 6, Steven Matz regressing (which he does sometimes, that’s part of the risk you take with him), Jack Flaherty’s multi-year slide from effectiveness, a 41 year old pitcher getting injured, the fact that Jake Woodford was anywhere near the starting rotation…
Agreed. It feels like scapegoating Contreras for the pitching sucking when it didn’t look like it was going to be particularly good going into the season, anyway.
It’s not that hard, really. Nolan Gorman is hitting well and fielding terribly so he should be a DH, except on the days when Willson Contreras needs a breather. Brendan Donovan’s not a great defensive second baseman but it’s only a problem if you are relying on pitch to contact. Dylan Carlson plays well in CF and Tyler O’Neill plays well in LF, so why switch them up? Maybe you call up Jordan Walker if you don’t believe in Burleson and Nootbaar is hurt, but don’t shuffle the whole outfield for fun. Andrew Knizner shouldn’t be starting. Jake Woodford shouldn’t be starting. Don’t publicly throw your left fielder who you awarded the center field job like a week ago under the bus because he did something you didn’t like.
they also have the means to improve the rotation by dealing from their depth somewhere else! i’m sure there are a few teams (the Marlins and Dodgers, to name a couple) who would be happy to take Tyler O’Neill off their hands for some pitching.
not sure what publicly humiliating O’Neill and Contreras is supposed to accomplish
I’m not sure that anyone exactly “wants” Tyler O’Neill right now, but they have so many players who don’t quite fit that they should absolutely have at least one player that other teams want. Gorman displaced Yepez at DH, and now apparently Contreras is displacing Gorman at DH, and Burleson needs to be getting everyday reps somewhere…
Nobody wants five months of Tyler O’Neill. They definitely won’t give STL a pitcher better than Woodford (who is exquisitely terrible).
The Dodgers already have two reclamation OFs in Peralta and Heyward blocking younger players. Yet another is the last thing they need or want.
Eh, Walker does need time to actually learn RF.
Is there anyway to find the percentile breakouts from the preseason projections? I’m curious what their current pace would be if it holds up for the rest of the season (I know it likely won’t, as we all know regression to the mean is tough to overcome). Is it 10th percentile outcome? 25th?
Yeah, they’re sorta the 2021 Giants in reverse. (The difference is that those Giants were legit great – a 103-win Pythagorean team, whereas these Cards seem to be more a mix of not very good and unlucky. When you drill down a bit, they’re not terrible.)
You can’t sign a bat-first catcher and expect him to become Yadier Molina. Cards hubris is going to cost them on this one. Contreras only brings positive value as a catcher, he isn’t going to help much as an OF or DH.
*Unless you’re Milwaukee
The Brewers might have a very flawed team but the things that organization does well they do very well.
I couldn’t be happier to see this organization going through this.
This is absolutely the right take. It’s been years since the Cardinals did something as bizarre as signing Willson Contreras to a $90M contract and then benching him in favor of Andrew Knizner, who probably shouldn’t even be in the league anymore.
This is my favorite type of bad move–the one where even if you try to defend it, it still means the team screwed up. Because it’s not like you didn’t know what you were getting with Willson Contreras, who is probably a 40th percentile defender at catcher and a 95th percentile hitter. These sorts of moves really aren’t even that bad; every team makes moves worse than this, even the Cardinals. But this sort of very dysfunctional move isn’t something we see from a lot of teams all that often, so it’s fun* to see a seemingly well-run organization face-plant like this.
*well, it’s fun if you’re not a Cardinals fan
Yeah, it’s not fun at all for fans. It’s not like we can point to bad luck or injuries or players underperforming as the reason for this nonsense. It’s incredibly rare for the reason to be pure, unadulterated stupidity. I have no doubt in my mind that Mozeliak and Marmol wanted to play Contreras in the outfield and only backpedaled a day later after significant backlash around the league.
Theyve got a huge manager problem. Terrible body language and just not ready for the job. Everyone knew contreras was not good behind the plate…and now they have 2 not good behind the plate and no one to lead the team.
Bad vibes and just brings the whole clubhouse down with it.
Yeah, it’s really hard not to conclude that Marmol is the primary problem here. He doesn’t seem to know how to assemble a working lineup out of their slightly weird roster (which roster, yes, you can blame Mozeliak for). He doesn’t seem to know how to motivate the players. And he has made a complete hash out of dealing with the media, in one of the most absurdly, uncritically team-friendly media environments in all of sports. Whatever the long-term outlook for the team, they obviously need to start by showing him the door.
“Best fans in baseball!”
barf.
Winning 93 games and a division title last year tells me Marmol was ready for the job. But I’m also not the body language expert you are.
Teams get lucky.
Look up the Royals 2002-2006 and beyond:
62-83-58-56-62…
Stuff happens.
Sometimes it makes good teams look bad, sometimes it makes bad teams look good. Either way, reversion to the means rules.
The Cards may not be as bad as they look but they’re not a good team.
And a manager who publicly throws his players under the bus won’t be a manager for long.
For an example of how a good manager handles an underperforming team, look to Francona in Cleveland. Grace under pressure. No pretense, no blame.
I’m not saying Oli is a good manager. (Personally I think he’s a mix of good and bad traits. His strengths suited the team last year, whereas his flaws – he’s too tightly wound, for starters – aren’t good for a team that’s failing.) So I’m not here to defend him. I’m just poking fun at the idea that he’s “just not ready” after he won a division title, and that we, as spectators, can tell much of anything by watching his body language on TV. I mean, that’s the kind of stuff you hear on sports talk radio.
The players have a thing or two to do with winning and losing.
Sometimes, despite the manager.
I mean…you’re describing someone who lacks the interpersonal skills to lead his team through adversity effectively. Calling him “not ready” is actually being generous, because it implies he might be ready one day.
Also…Matt Williams won 96 games his first year as a manager, haha.
The effect managers have on a team is usually very overstated, but Marmol publicly bashing two of his guys like he has is super weird from a PR perspective
It’s true a manager usually don’t impact a team more than a couple wins in either direction.
But a truly terrible manager (not saying Marmol is, but think LaRussa last year) who has lost the clubhouse can certainly lead to players giving 80-90% and playing several games below their ability.
Typically speaking, a manager doesn’t create good chemistry, because that mostly comes from winning. But they can absolutely screw it up. Matt Williams is the most extreme example of this; I don’t know that anyone could be that bad if they tried. But if you’ve thrown two players under the bus (O’Neill, Contreras) and it’s only the second week of May, maybe you are trying. Who does that?
According to many reports the decision to move Contreras to DH came from the front office, not Marmol. Who knows if that’s true (and it’s such a head-scratching move that if I’m manager I fight it vigorously – maybe Marmol tried; again, who knows; it’s so hard to judge managers with our limited info).
The most charitable read I can come up with – based on Mozeliak’s comments hinting at Contreras’ possible lack of preparation and “light at the end of the tunnel” that he can catch again – is that Contreras simply wasn’t game-planning for hitters the way the team is used to. So they put him in the dog house, and now it’s up to him to show he can prepare in a way management expects.
Even if that’s true, I’m sure there’s a better way to handle it publicly. And I still don’t think the downstream effects (taking such a huge hit at catcher with Knizner, forcing Gorman to play the field more, etc., etc.) are possibly worth what the Cardinals may gain.
If somebody on the team isn’t doing enough “game planning” isn’t that on the manager?
I mean if Marmol isn’t involved in the game plan each day, what DOES he do?
Perhaps Contreras wasn’t absorbing the game plan or something – again, it’s so hard to speculate on what’s going on behind closed doors. But overall, yes, I agree. Even if Contreras truly is slacking off on his duties, ultimately the blame falls on Marmol (for failing to motivate him), or Mozeliak (for signing Contreras without adequate intel), or both.
At some point, someone is going to have to explain to me what the normal expectations are for catchers because this doesn’t make any sense to me either. Players are supposed to be active in watching film, but the emphasis being placed on this doesn’t quite seem right either.
Apparently in St. Louis the expectation is: be Yadier Molina.
I’ve heard from people in the Cubs organization that when Contreras was in Chicago the team worked and worked with him on pitch sequencing and reading swings and while he tried, he just couldn’t get it. I’ve also been told that the Cubs tried desperately to unload Contreras at the trade deadline last year, and no one wanted him, in large part b/c he was so difficult to work with. Surely the Cardinals knew this. Which makes you think there was some real ego behind the Cards signing him – i.e., “he’ll come here and we’ll fix him.”
I say all this as someone who thinks the real problem here is not Contreras but the guys pitching to him. But I think the other aspect of this drama – signing a guy who’s not a good fit with the organization, and extremely different from the guy he’s replacing – is just very telling.
Marmol has violated one of the cardinal rules of managing now twice this year, which is don’t publicly malign your players to the media. This ain’t the 1970s.
And if you are going to dog one of your players, don’t dog a guy one month into his new 80 million dollar contract.
What was the right answer? Probably not signing Contreras. Now that they’ve signed Contreras, what’s the right answer? They have to stick by him. Work with him, through all the kinks. Get some better pitchers. Make the best of an imperfect situation. Obviously, they didnt do that.
But they cant undo what they’ve done now. They have a manager who looks like a total clown. They have a lop-sided roster problem, which isn’t insurmountable because they have young talent, but they need to make a couple trades (should have happened over the winter, of course) and they need to find a good manager–a steady hand–probably after the season but you never know.
Joe Maddon would probably love to stick it to the Cubs and he’s good with young players and worked well with Contreras–he seems the obvious candidate.
The Cardinals have had a lot of success over the years but have kind of always had a strange culture in the La Russa & Matheny years, and then there was the Shildt firing and now the Marmol shenanigans. Mozeliak has had a good run, but doesnt seem to be handling well the pressure of losing right now, and it’s worth questioning whether he knows how to hire a manager.
Joe Madden might be the worst in game manager in mlb history, though. Teams won in spite of, not because of.
Thats definitely hyperbole and probably not coming from a position of objectivity
This is a joke, right? There’s half a dozen worse in game managers active right now…
Isn’t that what spring training is for?
Why wasn’t Contreras brought in line then?
Seems pretty simple to fake a phantom injury where he can still hit but not catch (dead arm, etc) without throwing him under the bus for some sort of “Cardinal Way” bullshit
Exactly. This whole thing was poorly handled from a PR perspective. Both O’Neill and Contreras incidents should have been handled in-house. Marmol is too honest with media. His inexperience didn’t matter last year, but it has been on public display this year.
your name here is the shit
Ha – thanks!
My favorite description I heard regarding interactions with Matt Williams was that it was like dealing with your high school girlfriend’s father, but every day and for hours.
Sure, Matt Williams won more games than Marmol (more playoff games too) as a first year skipper…and his second year wasn’t nearly this bad.
It’s possible that Marmol was adequate as long as Molina was around to be a de facto bench coach. They might be trying to put Knizer in that role but it almost certainly won’t work. The problem with firing Marmol is that they’d have to get a replacement who knows The Cardinal Way. Unless it’s Molina who would qualify?
He’d jump at the chance.
He wants to manage:
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/yadier-molina-managing-puerto-rico-2023-world-baseball-classic-mlb/ma5gkdbdaznrupcdq1fzvc72
Honestly, why not?
In the WBC he swapped out the projected starter at the last moment. When askedvwhy, afterwards, his answer was a haughty “Because I felt like it.”
Not sure that woulf play in StL.
Yeah, but Yadi isn’t going to be a yes man for the front office. This team will not hire Yadier Molina as manager.
It’s stunning to see a team that has been so consistently successful this entire century crumble so far this year. Sure, losing Molina was going to be a concern, but his absence can’t be responsible for this chaos. These problems start with ownership and run through the front office, manager, and players. I’m not sure what the solutions are, but I’m quite curious to see if they find any.
What a shitshow. They did nothing to improve a bad rotation and now they’re using Contreras as the scapegoat.
While it’s a bad look to move Conteras from catcher one month into a five-year deal, I don’t agree that he’s being “scapegoated.” Teams that are losing 75% of their games generally make moves. For example, the White Sox just sent a bunch of guys to the minors, and nobody accused them of scapegoating the demoted players.
I don’t know, did they demote and bench the good players or the bad ones?
They demoted two rookies that were struggling, one who was only up because of injuries. They also DFA’d Diekman who had been terrible since they got him. The rest of their moves were IL stuff.
And the Cards took away catching responsibilities from someone commonly viewed as bad at one of the most important aspects of the job: working with pitchers.
“When you can take away responsibility from your marginal defense/good offense catcher and give it to your marginal defense/bad offense catcher, that’s a move you just gotta make!” –Marmol, apparently
except they’re implying that Contreras maybe has something to do with the rotation underperforming, rather than just stating that they need better production from said rotation
They did nothing to address their rotation, which was projected to be below average.
Instead they’re blaming their pitching struggles on the new catcher. That’s the definition of “scapegoating”
It’s clearly scapegoating him because of the way it was handled – by trying to make it about him than about what could actually improve the team. This on top of back tracking after the announcement shows how incompetent they are, further leading to using Contreras as the excuse for their issues.
Observation: It seems to me that in the past, most comments that were downvoted were hot takes, or hostile/disrespectful, or anti-data. Recently I’ve been seeing more and more comments being downvoted due to simple differences of opinion. I’m not a fan of it.
1) Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course; that said, not all opinions are created equal. “I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry is far superior to Rashomon in every way” is certainly an opinion, but probably not a particularly good one.
2) People get so hung up on their upvotes and downvotes sometimes; if you feel strongly about something just make the case and let the votes fall where they may. Even if sometimes they come up Chuck and Larry…
I didn’t downvote you because it seemed like you were trying to make a constructive comment. That said, this is still not a good take.
Your original comment lands squarely in the first category you mentioned.
You must be new to the internet
you love to see it
I always just assumed the Cardinals were doing something right, but some of the recent things make me think that maybe they are just really good at hitter development, and their success has been in spite of some poor decisions. Apparently they teach their pitchers to pitch to contact, which seems absurd.
It’s not a bad idea if your pitchers can’t strike guys out that much and you’re running out a lineup full of gold glovers. But it’s hard to run out a lineup full of gold glovers every year…
Let’s not forget that under Marmol and Mo, suddenly Mike Maddux, who has been a pretty solid pitching coach over his career, bolted for Texas. Bench coach Skip Schumaker left to become a manager of the Marlins, one can hardly blame him for taking a promotion, but then also Jeff Albert left as hitting coach to join the Mets as he felt he was blamed for too much, and then Matt Holiday was hired to replace Skip Schumaker and did a quick 180 just a few weeks later. There’s something pretty off about all of this that screams “toxic.”
The Holliday thing did seem odd.
Great stuff, Jay. The vibes coming out of Saint Louis have been very weird lately
I will say this: If the Cards really don’t think this is working out, there are definitely teams that will take Contreras off their hands in exchange for a not-great contract going back the other way. His deal is underwater, but not by that much. The Giants would be happy to do a change-of-scenery deal, maybe Haniger for Contreras or something. Maybe Jean Segura on the Marlins, because their catchers have been horrible. Or maybe the Padres would just agree to take him, period, since they don’t care about money and Austin Nola is clearly not suited to catch everyday.
Is his deal even underwater? He’s still a quality bat and his catching and framing numbers aren’t far below average. If I were the Cards, I wouldn’t take any of these deals. This seems more like a pitching and management problem. Oli Marmol has been terrible this year.
If no other team was willing to give $88M+ to Contreras five months ago, hard to imagine they would want to do it now.
General rule of thumb is that free agent contracts are slightly underwater the moment they are signed (draft pick losses complicates things a bit for smaller deals) and becomes more underwater as time passes unless the player overperforms expectations, which Contreras has not been doing.
Yeah, the deal is definitely underwater. Almost every free agent deal is underwater the moment it is signed, since no one else wants them at that cost, and now the team that signed him to catch has made him a DH. Which might not hurt his value too much, but it certainly doesn’t help either.
And no, I wouldn’t do any of those deals either, but then again I never would have demoted him quite like this in the first place. I still think he’s pretty good, and so I believe that he shouldn’t be hard to get rid of. If you proceed from the assumption that he’s a DH now, and you want to free up cash for shoring up the rotation next offseason, I think you can do that.
Stephen Strasburg, YOU are a Cardinal.
I said “not great” not “the worst contract in baseball”
Didn’t Stanton want to be a Cardinal, when the Marlins were dumping him?
It was the opposite: The Cardinals wanted to trade for him and he blocked it, along with the Giants. He was only going to approve a deal to the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and Astros.
The opposite. The Cardinals and Marlins agreed to a deal, and Stanton just needed to approve it. He refused.
It was the opposite. The Cardinals wanted him, but he would only accept a trade to a few of the most attractive destinations on the coasts.
With a weak farm system, Graceffo’s shoulder injury, Montgomery leaving at season’s end, and a rotation that will be headed by Mikolas and Matz in 2024, I don’t see how the team competes this year or next. They’ve stopped spending, so it’s not like they can sign their way out of this. There’s enough money to sign one decent starter in the offseason, but an E-Rod/Mikolas/Matz/Liberatore/Woodford rotation is still bottom-5 in MLB.
With a Central division that is rapidly improving, STL should be bold and do a quick rebuild, trading Goldschmidt, Edman, Montgomery, and any minor pieces that aren’t going to be around for 2025. I’m sure that seems reactionary, but seriously, look at the 2024 team, knowing that the rotation likely cannot be improved upon this year’s (they aren’t going to sign a pitcher better than Montgomery, who is gone in 2023). And it’s not like pitching is the only significant need — the outfield needs at least one more guy. Maybe they could trade for one more back-end starter, but that’s still not a good rotation, and I think Mozeliak is gun-shy about trading after completely blowing the Ozuna and Liberatore trades, which likely ended their long run of respectibility a couple seasons early.
I think the Liberatore trade was fine (not great but fine). The Cardinals just had too many outfielders, and it’s not like Arozarena has been head and shoulders above the guys the Cards kept. Maybe Liberatore was the wrong prospect to trade for, but I don’t think that trade is keeping Mozeliak up at night.
But the Ozuna trade, yowch. This team looks just fine/great if you’ve got Gallen and Alcantara leading the rotation.
It is probably too soon to tell on the Arozarena trade. It doesn’t look promising, but it looked like a fair deal at the time, and Arozarena is pretty streaky so who knows.
I’m a little skeptical of critiquing deals with the benefit of hindsight, unless it’s really bad (that Ozuna trade would qualify, I think). Sometimes, a process can be good and you can get unlucky; or a process can be bad and you can get lucky. It has to be so outrageously lopsided–or happen across a comically large number of different deals–to be sure it was a bad process.
I would think that you would need E-Rod (or Giolito) and Montgomery to make it work. Maybe you could get by with Mahle or Stroman or Sonny Gray, although what Gray is doing is not sustainable and he’s going to get paid way too much if he keeps this up. But I do think that this team is good enough that if they had one more good veteran starter instead of Flaherty you could get by with thoughts and prayers for Mikolas, Matz, and a young guy emerging to replace Wainwright.
The pool this winter is shallow. It’s more likely they look for a one year scratch ticket and maybe a trade to make the roster more balanced.
Really? I guess you’re right, in the sense that there aren’t very many guys available who are 2+ win, 4th starter types. But the number of playoff-worthy starters is very deep. We have:
#1 starters: Nola, Ohtani (probably)
#2 starters: Kershaw (although he’s not leaving LA)
#3 starters: Urias (although he’s gonna get way overpaid), Giolito, E-Rod, Montgomery
#3/#4 borderline: Mahle, Stroman
Playoff-worthy starters if they bounce back: Snell, Montas
Wild card: Sonny Gray (pitching like a #1 now, probably more like a #3 or #4), Scherzer (recently was a #1, now pitching like he won’t opt out)
When was the last time there were this many playoff-worthy starters available in free agency? And that’s the pool the Cardinals need to be fishing in, anyway. They don’t need to be messing around with Wade Miley, which is good because he’s maybe the only one in that category.
They’re not even out of the division THIS year. You guys are doing too much now. They went from odds on favorites to win the division 2 months ago with a top 10 farm system to now their farm system sucks and they can’t compete with the Cubs, Brewers and Pirates over the next two years? Yeah. Step away from the computer and get some fresh air man.
Too bad Nootbars’s hitting is a mirage too, his x-stats are barf. Also how does someone get a negative launch angle?
Lots and lots and lots of groundballs. Or was that rhetorical?
Raimel Tapia had, shockingly, a -4.4 launch angle in 2021. That takes some real commitment.
His xwOBA is .327 – not great, but perfectly playable.
Darn reality not corresponding to the nice x-stat we have!
One more thought on this team: I still don’t think the right call is to blow this team up. The NL Central is a disaster right now; the Pirates, Cubs, and Reds aren’t ready, and the Brewers are running out of major league caliber players and have had a lot of trouble scoring runs lately. Sure, they could trade Goldschmidt and Contreras and Montgomery and a whole bunch of relievers.
But this is a team that if they just hold steady for now, extend Montgomery, and sign a decent starter (Giolito? E-Rod?) they would be the favorites for the division title in 2024. They have enough pitchers in the minors that they can have a competition for the 5th rotation spot, and while a Giolito-Montgomery-Mikolas-Matz-Graceffo/Liberatore/McGreevy rotation isn’t very good it’s also not embarrassing like this mess. If I were them, this is what I would do; I’d trade Stratton and VerHagen and maybe Contreras if I really didn’t like him at catcher and needed some cash. That’s it.
What I don’t think they should do is just wait for positive regression from Mikolas and Matz and barely invest in the rotation otherwise. The comments coming from the Cardinals don’t inspire a lot of confidence in that…if they do that, and aren’t more aggressive in either direction, I would expect them to have a rough time of it going forward.
Yeah, this team still suffers from the classic Cardinals problem, they’ve got too much talent to tear down for real. Stripping out luck, this is roughly a 500 team. If they were 17-18 right now, much less chatter is happening. They’re probably not good enough to overcome such a horrid start to the year, but that doesn’t mean they should punt 2024 too.
They don’t have the money for Montgomery and another similar pitcher. I assume Montgomery will get $20+ million, and so will E-Rod and Giolito. The Cardinals will only be able to sign one of these pitchers, so you’re looking at a rotation of: Montgomery/Mikolas/Matz/Liberatore/Woodford.
That’s a bad rotation, man. Even if they trade for a back-end guy and dump Woodford, that’s still a bad rotation. And I think you are underestimating the other NLC teams. Pittsburgh is a bit of spending away from being a contender, assuming normal improvement from young guys + a return from Cruz. The Cubs are close to contending and have far more money than anyone else in the Central, which they will use whenever they think they are close. The Brewers do seem to have a smaller window, but turning Contreras into a monster might prolong the window, and they clearly have the ability to get maximum value from the guys they bring in.
They really should have enough money for that. Their estimated luxury tax payroll next year is something like $125M before arbitration, and even if you add another $50M on for the arbitration class they are nowhere near the tax line.
And if they don’t, and they really don’t like Contreras at catcher and they think they don’t have enough money, they should dump most of his contract on someone else to get enough money. That would free up another $15M or so. They could even non-tender Tyler O’Neill if they’re really hard up (or trade him for pennies on the dollar).
You think they are going to approach the tax line? They sat around $160 million this season after announcing they were going to raise payroll. There’s clearly a hard line on spending. If the only argument for this team competing in 2024 is that they could raise payroll, it’s not gonna work out.
O’Neill is a free agent, so he’ll be gone, but nobody would take Contreras. STL would have to eat something like $20 million, I guess, and they wouldn’t get much back. At most, they will have Wainwright’s, Dejong’s, Montgomery’s, and O’Neill’s money to spend, and that equals one good starter or a return of Montgomery.
They’re at $200M right now in tax line stuff (which includes all kinds of things other than salary), so, yeah, I think they can easily fit in another $25M and maybe a lot more.
Would they be favorites with that rotation? Probably, but that depends on what the Cubs do next offseason and whether the Brewers can spin any present gold out of their expiring assets. But that would speak more to the division than the Cardinals; they’d get a ticket to the playoffs but probably aren’t going anywhere i with that staff — it’s not like their offense in this scenario is *that* good, and Arenado and Goldschmidt are both a year older.
I assume any selloff would zero in on ready or near-ready MLB guys and could enable them to restructure their roster build on the bat side. Whether that opportunity emerges, who knows, but I’d take it if it did.
I’m 100% with you. Even if they significantly raised payroll for the first time ever and got two good starters, that’s still a mid-80’s win team. Good enough to be competitive but far from a top team.
But the Cardinals seem remarkably comfortable betting on random breakouts + luck turning mid 80s win teams into low 90s win teams. And given their success with that strategy and their farm system’s tendency to churn out 3+ win guys from unheralded prospects, I can see why.
Regardless of whether they should sell major pieces, there is just no chance they do. Stratton, Verhagen, sure. Maybe Cabrera, a couple outfielders, even Helsley. In a crazy world, maybe a bad contract swap of Contreras for an overpaid starter. But I can’t imagine them deciding to trade foundational pieces like Goldschmidt. Even when the team was set up to neatly trade expiring contracts in the 2016-2018 downturn, they still didn’t.
I think this is a worthwhile question. Let’s say they decided to extend Edman and Helsley (who are both relatively young) and built around them, Carlson, Nootbaar, Donovan, Gorman, and a bunch of guys who still have rookie eligibility. That’s a decent foundation, right? Who is left to trade?
Definite goners: VerHagen, Stratton. They’re both pitching well, on expiring contracts, not extension candidates. They’re gone even if they don’t tear down. Could get FV40 prospects back for them, maybe FV40+ if they get lucky.
Likely goner: Willson Contreras. His contract is underwater but if they’re not going to play him at catcher, they might as well move on from him. Depending on how much they eat, they might get a decent prospect back.
You’ll have to convince him: Paul Goldschmidt. He’s going to be 36 soon. Almost certainly their most valuable player who they could actually trade. He put up a 7 win season last year and is on pace for something like a 6 win season now; if the other team takes his whole salary, it’s like $35M in surplus value. FV55s are something like $40M and FV50s are something like $25M, so this would be the bulk of the rebuild here. But he has a no-trade clause, so good luck convincing him to waive it.
Unclear: Genesis Cabrera, Jordan Montgomery. Opposite problems here–Cabrera is young enough to extend, but he may not be reliable enough to do so. Montgomery is reliable enough to do so, but he’s a bit on the older side. Montgomery’s value is likely to be decent because he’ll be the second best pitcher available at the deadline behind E-Rod. Cabrera’s too–he’s good now and has some team control. I guess you could always trade Montgomery and then try to bring him back in free agency.
Not playing well enough to trade, especially with those contracts: Arenado, Mikolas, Matz.
Should hold to see if he rebuilds value: Gallegos, O’Neill. They’ve been better recently than this. O’Neill might have some value in the offseason in his last year of arbitration if he finishes strong.
Good luck trying to trade him: Jack Flaherty
When you start breaking it down like this, it really starts looking like the question is whether you can convince Goldschmidt to waive the no-trade. If you can’t, then you’re stuck with Cabrera and Montgomery.
Goldschmidt is their best chip — didn’t know he has a no-trade but if they’re still underwater in July maybe he’s happy to leave if he’s going to a contender this year, it’s not like the vibes coming out of St. Louis are good right now, I can imagine he doesn’t have the warm fuzzies.
Cabrera and Montgomery would have easy markets. So the decision is do you extend or sell. I think sell makes sense in both instances for the reasons you laid out.
Arenado needs to get back to some sort of baseline but if he can do that I think he’d have a market — just a few months ago people were flagging his contract as a deal given the winter market explosion, I could see a team thinking they’re buying, say, his 2021 line on his contract and being okay with that. He also makes the most sense if they’re resetting between his age and the opportunity to open up 3B. That all said I was a little surprised to see his offensive projections ROS, could be wrong that there’s positive value here.
Gallegos and O’Neill have minimal value, question there is one of timing and, with O’Neill, roster fit.
And then a bunch of guys who don’t and won’t have trade value: Matz, Mikolas, and I would put Contreras in this bucket. Here you’re eating money, and you’re only moving if you need the roster spot / lineup spot.
They need themselves a Joe Girardi-style firing, and quick
Marmol seems like a bad fit, but that’s not gonna fix the pitching
He’s Marmalade
A few thoughts:
Well said
I need to hear from rutabaga on this
I can’t stand the scapegoating of Contreras here. He’s been one of the only productive players on the roster and, as the article says, moving him off catcher reduces playing time for Gorman, who has also been one of the few productive players. In the era of the pitch com, if a pitcher doesn’t like the way a catcher is calling a game, then they should just call it themselves, the tech is there. Pitchers have always been ultimately responsible for the pitch call, and although things worked a bit differently with Molina, the team signed Contreras knowing full well that he is not Molina. So dumb.
Are we sure Mozeliak doesn’t think he was Molina? I think Contreras and Molina both speak Spanish.
Maybe he just now realized they aren’t the same guy.
Take this with heaping piles of salt – the sample sizes are small, they’re not adjusted in any way, etc., etc. And yet I’d be lying if I said this wasn’t interesting –
Cards’ pitchers ERA w/ Contreras vs. ERA w/ Knizner:
Matz 7.08/5.06
Mikolas 6.84/3.65
Montgomery 3.81/2.13
Flaherty 8.10/2.45
Helsley 4.26/3.18
VerHagen 4.91/1.80
Hicks 7.56/7.71
Gallegos 4.00/ 0.00
Woodford 4.87/ 6.52
Cabrera 2.25/3.60
Whether or not it’s fair to attribute the lack of good outcomes to Contreras (I tend to think it’s not), you can at least see where the PERCEPTION of Contreras as a horrible game manager came from.
I think this is largely what the rCERA part of DRS is supposed to do. And he definitely has not been good on that metric, but it’s not like that has been a consistent part of his game with the Cubs. He had one bad year in that department with the Cubs and the rest of the time he was average.
The real concern with this sort of analysis is that the pitching has been so horrible that they are bound to regress back to something being less awful no matter what they do at catcher. So now that Knizner is the regular catcher, it’s easy to attribute the pitchers bouncing back to him and not something that would have happened anyway. And that means Andrew Knizner becomes the object of a cargo-cult like worship, and he will be your catcher forever.
Ah, you beat me to this comment. But yes, I fully expect that scenario to play out.
And if you read the pitchers’ postgame comments, they are frequently flagging Knizner’s game calling. It’s totally feasible that the pitchers are falling victim to this same type of small sample size bias, and believing they pitch better to Knizner.
Why management is calling for it, that’s a tougher question. If you’re just trying something, anything to get the team going, I don’t know why you don’t just say that. “We totally believe in Contreras’ catching ability, but we’re just looking for a shakeup to see if we can get a little momentum. That’s all this is”
If they’re calling that out in the postgame interviews, then they’re going to be stuck with Knizner for a while.
I think this is what blows my mind the most about this. If your backup was Carson Kelly, or Austin Barnes, or Jacob Stallings, you would have someone who has been a functional player at some point in the recent past. But Andrew Knizner has never been good enough for this role. He’s got about 600 PAs and has a career WAR total of -1.7. And while it’s not my problem if Andrew Knizner becomes their new full-time catcher, it is baffling.
If you combine that with perhaps a pitcher or three hinting to the manager that, really, I threw what Contreras wanted, it’s not my fault it got blasted, you can see how a team might suddenly decide they need someone else back there.
I was a little too young to follow the team back then, but from what I’ve heard, this is looking a lot like 1990. That Cardinals team was also expected to contend with a lot of talented players like Ozzie Smith, Willie McGee, Vince Coleman, Terry Pendleton, Pedro Guererro, a decent rookie year from top prospect Todd Zeile, and guys like John Tudor, John Magrane, and Bob Tewksbury in the starting rotation, and they even traded for future Hall of Fame closer Lee Smith in May. Yet the team had a similar weird collapse, Manager Whitey Herzog gave up and quit midseason, and the team finished in last place for the first and so far only time since 1917.
The good news is that the team rebounded to finish above .500 and in 2nd place in 1991, as the Wizard rebounded back to usual level of offensive play, Zeile was shifted to 3rd base so that Gold Glover Tom Pagnozzi could be promoted as the starting backstop, Felix Jose had been aqcuired in the McGee trade the previous August, and rookies Ray Lankford and Bernard Gilkey became starters. The pitching also rebounded, including a career year from Lee Simth (not that he wasn’t also very good the year before). (Pendleton leaving only to rebound to win MVP with the Braves really hurt, though.) Although, they still had to wait until 1996 to return to the playoffs.
We’ll see how things go this time with the rest of this season and the next…
I think STL is the most obvious bounceback candidate in years, but I think it’s more of a late 60’s/early 70’s win team in 2023 bouncing back to a late 70’s/early 80’s win team in 2024. The 2024 team isn’t making the playoffs without Walker turning into Manny Ramirez or something, not with the projected rotation and money issues.
That’s why they’ll clearly upgrade the rotation over the offseason via trade and/or free agency.
What money issues? Aside from not being able to afford a high end payroll over $200M like usual, they don’t have any money issues, especially since they’re still drawing well over 30,000 a game despite being a last place team.
If they make enough pitching improvements, they should be back over .500 at the very least by next year.
I mean, all the things we liked on the position player side are still there, and the pitching isn’t super but there’s no way it’s THIS bad. They’re only at -19 run differential. BaseRuns thinks they should be 16-19, and they’re still projected to play .521 ball going forward.
I don’t know if they can crawl out of the hole they’re in now, but they’ll be OK.
They clearly have a hard line around $160 million. There’s no other reason they didn’t add more to a team they expected to contend. Saying they should spend more is a different argument than if they actually will. At $160 million (or the inflationary equivalent), you can’t rebuild the rotation by 2024. You can’t trade your way out of it without blowing up the farm system (any good starter will either be paid too much to acquire, or they are cheap and thus have exorbitant value that STL likely won’t pay for).
This feels like some of the collapses the the Red Sox have had in recent years. Last week Zips gave them an equal chance to make the playoffs. I felt like it was a car where zips was not recognizing the scope of the issues. Contreras is not the problem. It seems like an organizational problem where they are not certain what they want to do with their players on a day to day basis. This is not normal the pitch clock issue is overblown but also it’s indicative of them not have a plan on how they want to pitch. This yanking and backtracking is not helping.
They seem to be failing about and not acting as a model organization that they have been.
Contreras is clearly doing *something* much worse than they expected him to. No team, let alone the Cardinals would expect him to come in and defensively be the 2nd coming of Pudge. They knew they were sacrificing defense for offense, so in order for this to happen it’s got to be much worse than anyone expected.
Other than that, the Cardinals always seem to be a team that’s perpetually living in the past. They give out huge contracts to veterans who are past their primes or at least are likely to be for the majority of the deal (Arenado, Mikolas, Wainwright – I’ll admit that Goldschmidt is surprisingly keeping it up at least so far) and seem to expect performances from several years in the past when the players clearly have issues (e.g. Flaherty).
Finally, maybe the bullpen has been unlucky, but there’s also some really strange usage patterns here. Anecdotally, it seems like Helsey isn’t used for a bit (because the team’s bad), then he’s used either with a big lead in the 9th, or in the 7th, and then he’s not available for when they really need him.
Like others have said, this team is constructed poorly, and the roster is used in an even worse way. They’re not this bad, but this doesn’t look anything like a playoff team unless many underperforming players magically turn it around.
I’ve always found the Cardinals to be a symbol of the “unwritten rule” nonsense that the game needs to leave behind, so I take a bit of quiet satisfaction in their leadership suddenly morphing into the 3 stooges. I predict a new manager and GM by the ASG.
They’ll always have Montgomery for Bader though. You don’t pull Brian Cashman’s pants down every day.
At least until the last few years…
Eh, I think Cashman pretty much knew what he was getting, and Bader ended up being one of the biggest heroes for the Yankees last year. If he and Montgomery continue to play this well when their teams need them that’s going to go down as a great win-win trade.
I’ve always thought the Cards as avatars as the “unwritten rules” nonsense has always been exaggerated. In La Russa’s day, yes, there were incidents, but almost nothing since then.
I mean…Mike Matheny was peak “‘unwritten rules’ nonsense,” haha
He really wasn’t. He was a straitlaced guy for sure, but not the arbiter of decorum that TLR was. Frankly I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole on this thread b/c we’ll be picking at nits over stuff that went down 10 years ago, so I’ll just leave it at that.
I think we all knew that the Contreras contract was going to end up underwater, but sheesh, I thought it was going to be a little longer than a month into season one.
One thing that will be annoying though is that when these pitchers start positively regressing (it has to happen right?), they will credit Knizer/front office with it, when it’s probably going to end up being more positive regression than anything else.
Contreras has always been high strung and vocal. His body makes a lot of quick, jerky movements.
If I’m throwing a 3 inch ball through a 6 inch window from 60 ft away, I need the guy catching it to be as still and quiet as possible.
It won’t shock me if the cardinals pitching improves, and not solely because of mean regression. I can see how Contreras’s style has a detrimental effect on a pitcher for sure.
Knizner isn’t a good catcher, though. Not good enough for his wet noodle of a bat, certainly.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen such immediate buyer’s remorse on a player
The extreme from going from a defense-first catcher in Molina to a bat-first catcher in Contreas might have been too much of a quick transition for some pitchers, but in the end, the pitchers who aren’t doing their jobs are using him as a scapegoat. Worse, the Cardinal orgnization is using him as the scapegoat. I generally don’t advocate for firing mangers, but Oli Marmol hasn’t been good at all, either with his in-game decisions and his player management. It’s interesting that Mozeliak joined in the panic parade. That may indicate he’s feeling pressure from ownership.
When does his contract expire?
Some managers do strange things when their contracts are ending.
He’s more nuanced now due to the increase in the run game, he’s above average in that department. Catchers with great arms were de-emphasized in favor of framing and receiving. Now that the run game is back it’s a more complicated evaluation to say defense first.
Of course Yadi was great at just about every aspect of defense but it’s hard to find a catcher like that.
Remember when Mozeliak surprisingly fired Schildt, the winner, and hired a guy who wouldn’t question him?
That’s not why Mo fired Schildt. Miklasz broke this story. He fired Schildt because Schildt was being so abusive toward his coaching staff that they threatened to resign if he wasn’t let go.
Why do you think that so many of Marmol’s coaching staff have left?
I think it’s different in each case. Skip Schumaker obviously got promoted to a managing job, and I know for a fact had a great relationship with Marmol. Mike Maddux I know also had a good relationship with Marmol, but I don’t think his approach fit with the organization (he’s a very old school guy). I don’t know as much about why Bryan Eversgerd (the bullpen coach) or Jeff Albert left. Albert said he left b/c he was shouldering too much of the blame when the Cards’ hitters struggled. Who knows if that’s true. The people I know inside the org tell me Marmol is infinitely easier to get along with than Shildt. I mean, isn’t it pretty telling that Mike Shildt made the postseason 3 years in a row, averaged 90 wins per year, evidently wants to manage, and still hasn’t been hired by another team?
For the front office to do this right before visiting Chicago is not likely to be a detail lost on Contreras (or his agent). All they had to do is wait 4 days and not make a public announcement. You don’t even need to read between the lines to see the simmering tension in this relationship.
I think Yadi was able to turn a bunch of 5th starters into much better pitchers routinely. Contreras makes them worse. that gap is a bigger gap than we thought. Yadi really was THAT good!
I wonder if the Cardinals last year were able to essentially use incredible game planning to squeeze marginal pitchers above the line of marginality. Now, with game planning taking even a tiny step back, plus the pitch clock making it more important to have that knowledge at your fingertips, they can’t quite make that squeeze any more.
Someone upthread mentioned swing plane analysis as a weakness of Contreras, and I wonder if that’s part of what’s happening here. It’s not that he isn’t putting in sufficient pre- game work, but if your last guy was one of the best at seeing details and making calls to exploit batter weaknesses, and now you have a catcher who is a bit below average at that, plus isn’t as familiar with the pitchers, and he has less time to think things through, I can see how it looks like the new guy is just dogging it in pregame prep, even if he’s just fine
Great stuff. The Cardinals TV staff try to smooth out the rough edges on air but WTF!! Don’t blame the hit first catcher for your own shortcomings. The team needs a change.