The Reds Add Jeimer Candelario, But Who Will They Vote Off the Island?

The first few days of the Winter Meetings didn’t deliver much action; at breakfast on Wednesday, Erick Fedde versus Wade Miley as the biggest signing of the meetings was a popular debate. But things picked up as the gathering ground to a close. First, the Yankees traded for Juan Soto. Next, Eduardo Rodriguez agreed to terms with Arizona. Finally, Jeimer Candelario capped the meetings off when he signed with the Reds for three years and $45 million and a team option for another year, as MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand first reported.
Part of the allure of free agency, as a fan experience, is that you never know where any given player might land, or who your team might pick up. Sure, we all have opinions on where the top guys will sign, but until they put pen to paper, or at least until Jeff Passan gets a text about their chosen destination, nothing is set in stone. But if you’d asked me to predict signings that wouldn’t happen this winter, I would have made a lazy prediction: the Reds would stay away from hitters in general and infielders in particular.
That doesn’t have anything to do with Candelario, to be clear. I think he’ll be one of the bargain signings of the offseason, a plus bat with playable defense at third base on an affordable contract. A three-year deal nets the back half of his prime without too much messiness at the end of the contract, and he’s played at a 3–4 WAR clip in three out of the past four years. He’s been the 68th-best hitter in baseball by our count over those four years, just ahead of Luis Arraez and Ketel Marte in a similar number of plate appearances, if you’re trying to calibrate that in your head.
When you’re not living at the very top of the market, there will always be question marks. Candelario’s is his 2022 season, when his offense cratered so badly that the Tigers — the Tigers! — cut him loose rather than going to arbitration. He signed a prove-it deal with the Nationals, put together a sterling first half, and finished the season on the Cubs. His 117 wRC+ wasn’t a career high — he did better in both 2020 and ’21 — but that’s kind of the point. He looked like this for a while, fell completely apart, and then bounced back to his previously established level of production. ZiPS sees him as an above-average regular, an acceptable defender at a semi-premium position who will get on base a lot and sock 20 dingers a year in the confining confines of Great American Ballpark:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | .260 | .338 | .471 | 497 | 75 | 129 | 32 | 2 | 23 | 84 | 52 | 129 | 4 | 113 | -2 | 2.6 |
| 2025 | .258 | .336 | .466 | 481 | 72 | 124 | 30 | 2 | 22 | 79 | 50 | 124 | 4 | 111 | -2 | 2.4 |
| 2026 | .252 | .330 | .447 | 456 | 65 | 115 | 28 | 2 | 19 | 72 | 47 | 118 | 3 | 105 | -3 | 1.8 |
None of that is the weird part of the signing. That’s all stuff I could have written in October, and more or less did; between myself and Davy Andrews, our Top 50 Free Agent list had all that information. That also led to my prediction of a three-year, $45 million contract, and the crowd wasn’t far off either, with FanGraphs’ intrepid readers expecting a three-year pact worth around $36 million. In other words, the things that make Candelario interesting to major league teams are pretty straightforward.
Less straightforward: why the Reds were the most interested team. If I had to explain their offseason position in brief, I would have focused on three points: They’re cash constrained, they need pitching depth, and they have a gaudy collection of young infield talent. Here are the top Reds hitters, excluding Candelario, by 2024 Steamer projection:
| Player | wRC+ | WAR | Position |
|---|---|---|---|
| Matt McLain | 108 | 3.2 | SS/2B |
| TJ Friedl | 102 | 2.2 | CF |
| Noelvi Marte | 102 | 1.9 | 3B/2B/SS |
| Elly De La Cruz | 96 | 1.9 | SS |
| Jonathan India | 106 | 1.8 | 2B |
| Christian Encarnacion-Strand | 114 | 1.5 | 1B/3B |
| Spencer Steer | 105 | 1.4 | 3B/1B/OF |
Six of the seven hitters who the Reds hope will anchor their next competitive core are nominally infielders; only Friedl doesn’t fit. “Where will the Reds play everyone” was already a tough question to answer in 2023. At midseason, McLain slid from shortstop to second when India went down with injury. That led to De La Cruz establishing himself as the starter at short, which left McLain at second and gave India nowhere to play, though the problem was temporarily averted when McLain missed the end of the season with injury. Steer can play a lot of places, but first base stopped being one of them when Encarnacion-Strand came up. This isn’t a bad problem to have — oh no, too many of our prospects panned out! — but it’s still a problem that needs solving.
Adding Candelario to that mix only makes the situation trickier. His defensive capabilities are straightforward: he should play third base. He’s a roughly average defender there, perhaps a tick below if you believe DRS over OAA, but certainly within a playable range. He can play first base as well, but Encarnacion-Strand is a better fit there, and Candelario’s offense is much further above the baseline level at third than at first.
A brief aside: this is a weird blind spot in positional adjustments, and a reason that I think some first basemen get overly penalized by our WAR framework. The adjustments we use — and the adjustments that everyone uses, really — imply that Candelario would need to be 15 runs above average at first base to provide equivalent defensive value to being a scratch third base defender. That’s just not possible; the range of first base defensive outcomes isn’t that wide. If he repeated the same offensive season at each position over the next two years, the year where he played third base would be worth roughly one extra win relative to the year where he played first.
That might do a good job of explaining his value to the Reds, because it’s much easier to find good hitters at first than at third. Likewise, imagine a shortstop who’s a league-average hitter and a plus defender. If he were to transition to first, WAR would correctly assess that he’s far less valuable to the team at his new position. But the player is the same in both cases; positional adjustments don’t mean they suddenly got worse. They’re just playing below their potential value, as measured by WAR, to help the team out. Call it the Ian Desmond Rule: take an up-the-middle defender and move them to first base, and their measured defensive value will crater.
Anyway, back to Candelario! Dan ran him through ZiPS as a DH instead of third baseman, just for funsies. The third base projection, if you’ll remember from up above, was pretty solid; ZiPS would pay $56 million over three years for that kind of offense. Here he is as a DH:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | .261 | .339 | .475 | 491 | 74 | 128 | 32 | 2 | 23 | 82 | 51 | 128 | 4 | 114 | 0 | 1.8 |
| 2025 | .254 | .335 | .461 | 464 | 69 | 118 | 29 | 2 | 21 | 75 | 49 | 123 | 4 | 110 | 0 | 1.4 |
| 2026 | .252 | .333 | .449 | 432 | 62 | 109 | 27 | 2 | 18 | 68 | 46 | 116 | 3 | 106 | 0 | 1.1 |
Same hitter, different context, poof goes the WAR. If the Reds want to get the most out of him, then, he’ll need to play third. The easiest alignment for their infield goes Candelario/De La Cruz/McLain/Encarnacion-Strand moving across the infield from left to right, but that doesn’t leave anywhere for Marte, whose natural position is also third base. Okay, fine, maybe the Reds are happy to torch all that defensive value and move Candelario over to first, or even DH. But we’re not done! India is now crowded out; he’s worse than McLain on both sides of the ball, can’t hit enough to unseat Encarnacion-Strand at first or DH, and doesn’t provide defensive utility across the infield like Marte. Steer, meanwhile, will likely play the outfield full time now. I think he’ll hit enough, and develop enough fielding prowess when given a full-time role, to be a good left fielder, but that’s still an open question.
If you’re racking your brain trying to come up with some configuration that solves all these problems, you can stop. There isn’t one. You can’t play six infielders at four spots, five if you count DH. None of them are part-time players or easy platoon guys; they’re all either righties or switch-hitters. All of the solutions involve subtraction in one way or another; someone has to get hurt, or someone has to get traded. Even then, there are going to be some Ian Desmond Rule issues; someone who is defensively overqualified for DH is going to end up there, because there are just too many shortstops and third basemen on the roster.
But who to trade? Now that’s a sticky question. I think that De La Cruz and McLain are staying put for sure; they’re the top two talents, and the only two that feel like surefire core players to me. I don’t think Encarnacion-Strand is likely to get traded, either, though I’m less sure there. It’s just hard to imagine getting much value for a first baseman (he can play a little third now, but first is his long-term spot) with his strikeout issues and lack of track record. If I were the Reds, I’d hold onto him and bet that he’ll be better than what other teams would give up for him.
That leaves India and Marte, but there are issues with trading either of those guys, too. India’s value is at a low ebb; he hasn’t yet replicated his hot-hitting rookie season, with two straight years of league-average offense. He’s also a below-average defender; I think a lot of teams would hesitate to plug him in at second unless they truly had no other options there. He’s a classic baseball archetype — a guy who needs regular playing time if he wants to recapture the value he showed a few years ago — but the Reds have nowhere to play him, and they almost certainly value him as closer to his best self than the teams trying to trade for him will.
Trade Marte? I suppose they could, but his situation is even more confusing. He was the key player that the Reds got when they traded Luis Castillo, and as such, he’s a symbol of their rebuild. The tricky part here is that he looked diminished in 2022, then finished with a poor showing in Fall League, then turned in a mostly lackluster 2023 in the minors. He hit quite well in a brief major league showing but graded out poorly defensively at third, and there were already questions about his long-term defensive home. He has huge upside, but there are so many unknowns that, like India, I think teams trading for him would only be interested if they were getting him at an attractive rate.
This is the classic problem of trading from surplus: you want to trade the guys who are underperforming so that you can keep the ones who are already playing well, but the teams you need to trade with get to see that underperformance, too. Any trade involving India is going to feel underwhelming in the context of his 2021 Rookie of the Year season. Any trade involving Marte is going to feel underwhelming in the context of the Castillo trade.
Still, the Reds need to make a trade. There’s not even much concern about subsequent injuries leading to a shortfall; even if they move one of these guys, another infielder will be playing DH, and Steer can always move back to the infield if necessary. Heck, many of the Reds’ best hitting prospects behind the current crop of guys are infielders, too, though to be fair most of them are still pretty far from the majors. It’s just a strange situation. They already had too many infielders, and then they made their biggest signing of the offseason to increase the logjam.
The reason for this seems obvious: they think Candelario is great. I tend to agree with them and think he’ll do really well there. He’s a good fit for the park, and again, I already thought he’d be one of the best bargains available in free agency. If you’re going to run a budget around $90 million, like the Reds are, bargains are really important.
The happiest outcome of all of this would be that the Reds already have a trade lined up. It doesn’t matter exactly what they get in return, as long as it’s players who can help them in the near future; they could use more outfielders, more starters, and more relievers. They’re counting on a ton of innings from young and recently-injured pitchers, and their current right-field platoon of Stuart Fairchild and Will Benson doesn’t inspire a ton of confidence.
So let’s give the Reds the benefit of the doubt, at least for now. There weren’t any exciting outfielders in the budget range where they were shopping unless they won the Jung-ho Lee sweepstakes, and I’m not sure if they were even participating. The pitchers I think they’d be most interested in will command bigger deals than Candelario. From a money and talent standpoint, he really does seem like a great fit.
But from a team construction perspective: he’s a terrible fit. What do you get the team that has too many infielders? An infielder, naturally. If the Reds can’t trade their way out of this problem, this is going to be a very frustrating roster in 2024. So for now, they get an incomplete grade, and if they haven’t moved one of their infielders by next year, that grade will switch to an F. It’s truly one of the most baffling signings from a team-needs perspective in my career in baseball.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
Speaking as a Reds fan, I am simultaneously excited by the efforts shown by the Reds in FA (a novel experience after the past few years!) and absolutely flabbergasted by some of their choices. Absolutely no idea what to expect next.
Reportedly the Marlins are listening on Garrett, Luzardo and Cabrera in trade talks and badly need a shortstop. Cabrera won’t get you one of the Reds shortstops but Luzardo surely would right?
Luzardo or Garrett both probably gets anyone but Elly or McLain, depending on how one feels about steer’s defense. Luzardo’s health history (and 3 years of service time) probably keeps him from getting Elly or McLain despite his excellence last year.
Luzardo for McLain (or ELDC) would be one heck of a challenge trade. It’s the kind of trade where both teams’ fans* would complain they were ripped off.
—
*hypothetically speaking, the Marlins don’t actually have fans
Luzardo for Elly would be really interesting. It’s a volatility challenge trade!
If I’m reading it right, Elly has 6 years to go before he’s a free agent after the 2029 season and Luzardo has 3 years left. No way I’m trading 6 years of Elly for 3 of Luzardo. Last year was basically the first time Luzardo ever stayed healthy for a full season.
I honestly have no idea what I think of that trade I just proposed. I just thought it would be fun.
What about Elly and Marte for Eury Perez? How does that strike your fancy? (I would do that if I was the Reds, not sure about the Marlins)
no way the Marlins do that!
Pitchers break, dude. See: Alcantara, Sandy; Rogers, Trevor; Meyer, Max…
Eury was a guy I thought of when I was trying to think of what type of pitcher would be fair value for Elly. I happen to like both Marte and Elly so it feels a touch heavy, but I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand. Maybe Elly and, like, lowder, or something. Probably neither of them do it because of the extreme risk in all directions.
Yeah, I do lean the Elly side there, but maybe not as much as you. I would wager on him currently being fairly near his peak value, because currently he is faced with having to succeed with a batted ball profile no one succeeds with long term
So when I start thinking of it in terms of “Get a Luzardo today or something much less in the 2024 offseason” I start to talk myself into it
Yeah, there is no way the Reds are trading Elly unless he ends up a 60%-70% actualization range where he has value but falls well short of his ceiling. Trading him for a pitcher seems extra dubious considering the breakage rate on arms.
Shades of Chisholm-for-Gallen.
Have you seen GABP?
Kind of like the Arraez for Pablo Lopez trade! I think everyone involved ended up pretty happy with that one.
I know the White Sox don’t want to trade Robert and that is completely understandable but to me the Reds and White Sox could line up for a huge blockbuster that cleans up some of the Reds over crowding of infielders and could jump start the White Sox rebuild.
Cease & Robert for Steer, Marte, Arroyo, Ashcraft, India & Collier
White Sox 2 best prospects are both already likely destined for 3B. Imo the Orioles are the only team with the prospect fire power who could pull off a trade for both.
That’s a super easy no on the White Sox end for me. If Robert is going then Elly is coming back.
That is fair I could see the White Sox asking for De La Cruz instead of Marte and asking for another SP prospect like Lowder or Phillips instead of Arroyo or Collier. Reds might not go for it of course and this type of massive trade almost never goes thru, it would be much more likely to have Cease and Robert trade separately if they were both ever to be traded.
I just don’t see anyway the White Sox are going to be competitive the last 4 years of Robert contract so if he can be traded for a haul that sets up the White Sox for possible success sooner than later I would make that trade instead of being uncompetitive the next bunch of years and trading him for less once he gets closer to free agency.
The reason I like the Reds as a trade partner for the White Sox is how ready most of their prospects are so the White Sox could add a bunch of high end prospects on the same timeline as Montgomery, Ramos, Quero, Nastrini & Schultz. Plus they would have very little committed in salary so they could add a couple free agents in spots where they were needed.
Four years is a long time in baseball, so there’s no urgency to trade him. Robert will still only turn 30 the last year of that contract. Add in these additional tidbits:
-They’ll likely get some big pieces for Cease this offseason to add to a farm system that is currently ranked 12th, up from 27th, on this site. I think the Reds are a great trade partner, but probably for Cease only. A Cease for Lowder/Marte probably gets them most of the way there.
-While stuck with that Benintendi contract that was underwater before the ink was dry, they’ll get out from bad money contacts after 24 if they buy out Eloy and Moncada. If they buy out both, that’s over $30M saved.
-They’ve got a top 5 pick this year.
-Most importantly, they’re in a division where you don’t have to be outstanding to be competitive. KC is as rudderless, if not more so, than Chicago was. Detroit has money, but their rebuild has gone a bit sideways. Cleveland is capable, but can’t/won’t spend. So, it’s really Minnesota is the only semi-capable team, willing to put money into the product right now. Thank God for geography if you’re a Sox fan.
Trading Robert indicates a full on tank. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. One thing it definitely does do is kill interest in the MLB product for half a decade. That has repercussions down the road.
Signed-
A Pirates fan.
Depending on what they get just trading Cease I do think their farm system could look pretty good but even if every one of their top prospects hit that would still probably take 2 to 3 years and still leave them with some major holes on the roster that I personally do not expect Reinsdorf to be willing to spend to fill.
It just looks to me like they need everything to go right in order to be competitive for the last year of Robert contract which leaves them with a very small window where as they could try to set themselves up for a 3 to 4 year window. You never know every prospect they receive in a Robert trade could flame out and it could be a major mistake but that is one of the reasons I like the Reds prospects they are as close to sure things as you can get in the prospect world so it wouldn’t be trading for guys in the low minors who have a high risk of never providing value.
Robert contract is insane as far as value for the next 4 years I just don’t see any benefit to having that contract on a team with a minimal chance of competing during that 4 year window.
I am getting downvoted and no one seems to agree with me so I am probably just completely off base though haha
It’s unlikely they’ll be competitive in the next two years, sure. But after that, who knows? Like I said, four years is a long time. It’s certainly possible some of these lower 40 level prospects take a big jump.
As for the return you cited…maybe that makes them kinda competitive. But do any of those prospects/young regulars in your initial offer profile as stars? Or potentially better players than either Cease or Robert? Pretty slim. Those are 10 nickels, but that ain’t gonna equal 2 quarters.
And I don’t think teams are likely to want to pay that price, especially for Robert with the quality and contract. They’ll likely have to bide time if they want to flip him.
Which would be a super easy yes for the Reds. If given the choice between Robert or Elly I’d take Robert 1000 times over.
This makes zero sense for the Sox
I’m surprised some White Sox fans are against this because as a Reds fan, I would be unhappy to see this move. Sure, it clears up a temporary crowded IF situation, but the Reds have a window of 4+ years and should not sacrifice the future in order to win in 2024 and 2025. Let’s see these guys develop a bit before betting the farm. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to have Robert and Cease, but Cease is only locked up for two years. Giving up 4 50 FV prospects, a former rookie of the year, and a serviceable SP for this is a huge ask.
The trade simulator shows this trade as an overpay by the Reds, although not a ton. Basically removing Arroyo, India, or Collier would even it out.
I would much rather talk with SEA, CLE, MIA about long-term controllable starters and give up much less.
Robert is signed for 4 years (and only $67.5m!)
My issue here is timing. A combo of bringing in Candelario to play 3rd and trading a young infielder who has a bunch of speculative/excess value makes sense as a two-step process. Doing it in this order doesn’t. Now, the Reds have an obvious problem on their hands, and they’ve consequently worsened their negotiating leverage. How do you play hardball in negotiations when the other teams know you have to either make a trade or one or both of Elly/Marte have to get stuck in AAA.
Does it really affect their negotiating leverage that much? They always have the option to just trade with another team…
You never want to be negotiating from a place where everyone else knows you have to make a trade
I suppose the other thing that could be in the works is an Elly move to CF
But since they CAN park someone in AAA it’s not actually a problem. Just an abundance of resources, poorly allocated. And if they don’t get an offer the like before opening day, they’ll likely get one before the trade deadline.
Possible they will mix and match, maybe have an injury or two in the Spring–and then trade Candelario himself in June, bringing back new assets for effectively the cost of his salary the first couple of months?
Think you’re underselling Marte by quite a lot here. He ‘underperformed’ to the tune of a 116 wRC+ in the tacky-ball Southern League at age 21, controlled the zone very nicely (12%BB/19%K) in his brief AAA stint, and then was hitting rockets everywhere upon being called up (Av EV 92, Max 116).
He’s been young for every level and performed – high BB, low K, strong exit velos, etc. Doesn’t chase and seems to make a lot of contact in the zone. Not really sure I see a flaw in his profile to be honest.
He should have a ton of value on the open market, though I’m not quite sure why he’s the one they’d want to move, what with ELDC and McClain’s contact issues.
None of this makes any sense.
Agreed, I think that you should be able to find someone willing to trade the world for Elly, who is still really just a lottery ticket due to his profile, and you could get a top of the rotation pitcher for him straight up whereas you probably have to package India & Marte together. Then you run with
3B: Candelario/Marte
SS: Marte/McClain
2B McClain/India
1B: Steer/Encarnacion
DH: India/Encarnacion
With Steer also getting starts in the OF. Still a little messy but doable, and a pretty kickass lineup to boot.
I was surprised at the assertion that he’s a poor defender, as observationally he showed decent range and a strong arm. I think he has good defensive upside there but I’m interested to see what the metrics say.
He looked very promising at the plate. I agree with everything you note, especially the lack of chase. He showed a much more polished approach than I expected.
It is all made even weirder by the report that the Reds are going to play India at 1st base/DH.
He’s a pretty poor defender at 2B. That announcement sniffs a little of “We’re happy to keep him (please trade for him)” gamesmanship
When I saw this news I texted a buddy a pointed out that you don’t make this signing unless you’re willing to play two the infielders in the outfield right now. Steer seems obvious, but McLain has some OF experience as well. Not that this would be ideal for them or the team in terms of maximizing value, but there’s just no way you sign Candelario without having multiple plans in place that will allow you to try and get the most out of your roster.
i found this move a little odd, but it kinda makes sense if you think about it from the perspective of needing a reliable left handed/switch bat with some level of pop? elly and benson might strike out 1/3 of the time and while freidl and fraley have some interesting skills they needed a little juice. i think i’d rather just sign joc though? maybe he didn’t want to go there
Joc is looking for a much longer and much, much more expensive contract. Signing Joc would have been the Reds entire offseason and then some.
are we talking about the same Joc? You think he’s looking for much more than 3/45?
EDLC just feels a lot like a guy who could play a passable CF based on athleticism and his arm alone.
McClain played CF for a year at UCLA.
I seem to recall he wasn’t very good at it.
I seem to remember that Krall, while talking about India, casually said that there aren’t 700 PAs for anyone on this roster. But that India would play, and play a lot, like everyone else. It’s entirely possible that the Reds are just casually building a deep roster where no one plays every day, which gives Bell (who’s notoriously fidgety) maximum room to play around with lineups. I don’t know if that would work, but having 11 or 12 guys you want to play every day might allow you to play the hot hand and not force anyone to become a star.
Interestingly, everyone assumes the Reds need to/will definitely add a starter. But it’s sort of the same issue there too – Greene, Lodolo, Williamson, Ashcraft, and Abbott are a theoretical five man rotation of young, unproven guys just like the infield. And they’ve said Martinez is a starter also, so there’s six.
I’m not sure what the plan is, but these are all talented guys. Maybe the hope is talent just somehow makes it all work.
It’s not that it wouldn’t be good to have all that depth, it’s just not a very efficient use of resources to have multiple of those guys sitting or down in AAA every day when the rest of your roster needs help.
Williamson and Ashcraft are butt so there’s two spots right there. Greene’s always hurt. The bullpen was obviously also atrocious last year, so maybe a trade for a starter and a reliever (or three) makes sense.
I agree the resource allocation is a mess and the rotation and bullpen could use serious offseason help, but the Reds bullpen was not “atrocious” last year. Middle of the pack and severely overtaxed? Yes. Atrocious? Hardly.
“Williamson and Ashcraft are butt”
Disagree, especially on Williamson. He didn’t look right after his bout of COVID, but when he was healthy and had his FB sitting 94, he was carving with four pitches and was able to go reasonably deep in games. I was down on him coming into the year but he really grew on me. The cutter he added really changed his profile. Looking forward to 2024.
Ashy is frustrating as hell, and probably belongs in a MIRP role. He doesn’t have enough viable pitches or the command to start. I’m for letting him start the season in the rotation, but I’d rather see what Connor Phillips can do if Ashcraft gets off to another slow start.
Man, I dunno. As a Phillies fan, this signing is giving me flashbacks to the Phils signing Carlos Santana to play 1B, thinking they were getting such a bargain that it was worth forcing a promising young guy (Rhys Hoskins) to play out of position. Also getting bad flashbacks to the Padres trying to make their whole team out of middle infielders, thereby cratering Jake Cronenworth’s value by forcing him to play a position where his glove had little value and his bat was too light.
There could be a nice trade between Brewers and Reds where Crew trade from their young CF surplus for one of Reds too many young corner infielders. But since both teams probably see the other as a their biggest rival for next year I doubt its going to happen.
I think both probably see the Cubs as their biggest rival but your point is well taken. Neither of them are making that deal unless they think (1) that they’re winning the deal and (2) the other team is losing.
I’m sure the Brewers would love to trade Joey Wiemer for Noelvi Marte. And I’m sure the Reds would love to trade India or Encarnacion-Strand for Sal Frelick. They’d be looking to win and the other side to lose.
Who says no on Weimer for Marte? Wiemer is from Ohio. Heck, the Reds could even throw in a little extra.
As an outsider to both teams I would value Marte a fair bit higher than Wiemer
Wiemer has a huge ceiling. He’s 70 raw, 70 speed, 60 field, 60 arm. And like a 30 hit tool. Maybe lower. Not for the faint of heart. I’m very skeptical of Marte’s defense and I would still rate him half a grade higher easily. Maybe a full grade.
I’m a Bearcat and would love to see Weimer as a Red, but no chance in hell I’m trading Marte for him
They could throw in some Skyline Chili! Nevermind, that has negative value.
I love Jeimer and I’ll be excited to see him in such a friendly park.
For the Reds, the best way for this to make sense is to sign Chapman, trade for Adames, maybe trade for Polanco and Duran, and just run an all-IF team and wait for other teams to break down. That’s how you build trade leverage.
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Positional adjustments has been the biggest skeleton in the closet for WAR (more so than often maligned defensive numbers) but I don’t follow this logic. If you put Christian Walker (who has been a +7 defensive runs/150G 1B the past three years) in 2B, he would need to be a -4 defensive runs/150G to match his value, something that is highly unlikely. Does this mean that the positional adjustment for 2B is too harsh? Of course not.
I’m curious as to the league-wide WAR totals by position. It feels skewed, but I’m not sure how. I’ve thrown out the idea of scaling the positional adjustment to position-wide wRC+. Then an average hitter and average fielder for their position would come out at average overall.
When we looked at the depth charts last year, there were a few comments about almost all of the shortstops rating at “above average.” Naturally, talent isn’t distributed equally at each position – but I’ve also observed a similar phenomenon with catchers – too many “above average” ones, very much at the cost of 1B/DH guys who eat a huge penalty.
I like Jeimer Candelario a lot. I think this is a very good deal for one of the better bats on the free agent market, and one who can (probably) play an average third base. Not so easy to find that. But this is eerily reminiscent of the time the Reds decided they were going to sign Mike Moustakas to play second base because they wanted both a left-handed hitter and a second baseman and decided it would work out. The Reds don’t seem to think positions matter at all, so this could get super weird very quickly. Like, Spencer Steer in LF, Jonathan India in CF-level weird.
Imagining India’s arm in CF… SMDH.
At least with the Moose signing, one could at least see the logic in that shifting would help him out so. Now, though? Shrugs.
Plus Moose played a fair amount of 2nd the previous year so there was at least some idea how he would perform.
Completely with you on Moose. That was the first thing I thought of when this news came out.
OTOH, there is nothing weird about Steer in LF. He looked surprisingly good out there as the season wore on.
Thank you for saying it–this makes no sense.
The reds will be able to trade out of their surplus with the players they don’t need instead of flipping their core guys. Miami obviously makes sense.
India for Trevor Rogers?
India, Fraley, and Ashcroft for Rogers and Meyer?
Flipping Marte right now would be a mistake.
Seems like they could use some combination of Marte/India/Steer, and aim for an expensive one year pitcher – Burnes is obvious, but those in-division trades are tricky. Or maybe India/Steer for Manoah?
All these trade suggestions in the comments section are interesting but my guess is that ultimately the Reds will just trade India and accept the best pitcher they get offered.
This is my thought exactly. As soon as I saw this signing I figured India was as good as gone.
There’s the same infield logjam with Candy replacing India, but it shifts to a Marte impact instead of McLain or CES, and has me wondering if Noelvi starts the year at LOU.
Assuming Steer moves to the outfield, you really have 6 players vying for 5 spots. I could see it breaking down similar to something below:
Candelario: 90% 3B, 5% DH, 5% rest
EDLC: 90% SS, 5% DH, 5% rest
McClain: 80% 2B, 10% SS, 5% DH, 5% rest
CES: 45% 1B, 45% DH, 10% rest
Marte: 10% 3B, 20% 2B, 45% 1B, 25% rest
India: 10% 1B, 40% DH, 50% rest
However, that’s all assuming everyone is healthy and playing effectively. Between injuries, pinch hitting opportunities and teammates slumping, if you are playing well, they’ll likely be a spot for your in the lineup even without a trade. Wouldn’t hurt if Marte and/or India could play the outfield though.
I expect to see some 3B in Elly’s diet like last season, but it’s an interesting stab.
I do think Steer is the starting LF out of ST.
“They’re counting on a ton of innings from young and recently-injured pitchers, and their current right-field platoon of Stuart Fairchild and Will Benson doesn’t inspire a ton of confidence.“
The strong side in the RF platoon is Jake Fraley. Benson played that role when Fraley got hurt, but Fraley is the guy. Fairchild is best in LF and probably the best at backing up all OF spots, but is the worst bat. Benson is a solid hitter but probably the weakest defender.
Friedl has CF on lock and beats platoon threats by hitting lefties extremely well. Steer should be the starter in LF. He looked like a rock solid defender as the year wore on. I don’t see anywhere for another infielder besides Steer to move to the OF. There are two starters and the RF platoon, defensive back-up and pinch hitting are covered by the available options. There’s not enough PT to move anyone.
WAR isn’t supposed to consider how easy it is to find a replacement in the first place! It’s about the relative value compared to an average farm system’s best AAA replacement at the same position regardless of the overall rarity of those replacements.
So yes, revisiting some of those positional adjustments is a good idea, as the only reason WAR should have positional adjustments is to compare the defensive value provided only through the relative ease of actually playing the positions (aside from DH, which technically has neutral defensive value despite being the easiest “position”).
I expect Marte and his solid arm to head to RF; I think the unhappy player out of all this will be India; he may end up as a real UT player, or if EDC really “can’t” hit LH, or doesn’t out of the gate, I see a quasi-platoon of EDC and India, with McLain filling in the open spots at 2b and SS. I think the Reds are happily “full” with the bats, and probably are with the arms as well, which will disappoint the fan base, but play into N. Martinez shepherding the kids. If/when a top arm at the deadline becomes available, well, then we may see the trade that makes sense…
I don’t see any issues with selling low on India if they don’t think he ever will recover his rookie form.
Trading India seems the likely path but Reds announcers have noted that he is a leader on the team. But let’s assume he is dealt for pitching. With Votto gone as well, there will be a need for player(s) to step into the role.