The Tigers Might Be Historically Bad
As we’re reminded every time they face the Yankees and give up homers by the half-dozen, the Orioles are a very bad baseball team. At 39-82, they’re 41 1/2 games out of first place, and on pace for 52 wins, which means they could lose more than two-thirds of their games for the second season in a row. They’re just nine homers away from breaking the single-season record for dingers allowed (258). And yet they’re not even the majors’ worst team. Neither are the Marlins, who through the first 41 games of the season slipped below the Throneberry Line by losing 31 games.
That so much attention has been paid to those bad ballclubs might be chalked up to yet another instance of East Coast Bias, because tucked away in the more wholesome Midwest are the Detroit Tigers, who are doing things (and not doing things) to rekindle memories of their 2003 squad, which gave Throneberry’s 1962 Mets a run for their money by losing 119 games. At 36-81, these Tigers are on pace to go 50-112, but a slight slippage could send them past last year’s 115-loss Orioles. In the words of James Brown, “People, it’s bad.”
This — what’s the opposite of web gem? — might be the 2019 squad’s signature play (h/t @suss2hyphens):
The Tigers were a competitive concern as recently as 2016, when they went 86-75 but slid out of a Wild Card spot in late September. That was the last gasp of the core that won four straight AL Central titles from 2011-14, and one that probably should have begun scattering to the four winds earlier. As it was, general manager Al Avila — who replaced Dave Dombrowski in late 2015 — traded Alex Avila (his own son!), J.D. Martinez, Justin Upton, Justin Verlander, and Justin Wilson in a six-week span in mid-2017, as the team was en route to 98 losses.
The Tigers are rebuilding, but their rebuild has been hampered by a farm system weakened by years of bad drafts and repeated mining to keep their competitive window open. One has to dial back to 2011 to find a year in which the Tigers’ top draft pick (James McCann, who was a second-rounder) ever suited up for the team in the regular season, and 2012 (Jake Thompson) for one who even played in the majors. Baseball America’s annual organizational rankings placed their system between 26th and 30th annually from 2014-17. That’s a lousy platform from which to launch a rebuild, and it’s shown. Last year’s Tigers lost 98 games under new manager Ron Gardenhire, and this year’s crop is worse. Much, much worse.
How bad? Where to begin… Let’s start with the offense, and note that unless indicated, none of the stats here reflect Wednesday night’s victory over the Mariners. One win isn’t changing the arc of their season, and I can only stare into the heart of statistical darkness for so long without filing a workman’s compensation claim.
This Tigers team’s average of 3.67 runs per game is nearly half a run lower than the next-lowest AL team (the White Sox at 4.10), and just 0.03 runs per game ahead of the Marlins for the majors’ worst. Their .236 batting average and .295 on-base percentage both rank dead last in the majors, and the latter is in danger of surpassing the .292 mark of the 2011 Mariners and 2014 Padres for the dubious title of the lowest since the 1994 players’ strike. Their .387 slugging percentage and 78 wRC+ are both last in the AL, ahead of the NL-worst Marlins (.37 and 77, respectively); the post-strike low for wRC+ is 74, by the 2004 Diamondbacks. Their 110 homers is last in the AL, 15 fewer than the 14th-ranked Royals. Their 25.9% strikeout rate trails only this year’s Padres (26.1%) and last year’s White Sox (26.3%) for the era’s highest, while their 3.65 strikeout-to-walk ratio trails only this year’s White Sox and Marlins (4.08 and 3.85, respectively) and last year’s White Sox (3.75). Got all of that? Sorry, I should have warned you, it’s an awful lot of awful baseball to digest in one sitting.
In terms of individual players, through Tuesday the Tigers had given more than 50 plate appearances to just one player who has a wRC+ of 100 or higher, namely Nicholas Castellanos, who was traded to the Cubs on July 31. A 100 wRC+ might still be attainable for Brandon Dixon (99 in 308 PA), Niko Goodrum (96 in 449 PA), Miguel Cabrera (96 in 426 PA), and JaCoby Jones (92 in 333 PA), but of that quartet, only Cabrera projects to do so (more on him below). Meanwhile, the team has given at least 100 PA — a cutoff I’ve chosen to clear out at least some small-sample noise — to 11 players with a wRC+ below 90; that’s 11 out of 160 such players in the entire majors, which is to say that they’ve got far more than their share. Those players have account for a major league-high 50.2% of the Tiger’s plate appearances.

Six of those 11 players (Jeimer Candelario, Grayson Greiner, Josh Harrison, John Hicks, Dawel Lugo, and Ronny Rodríguez) have a wRC+ below 70. It’s grim. Meanwhile, Dixon is the only Tiger with more than 11 homers (he has 14); the Marlins only have one such player, Brian Anderson, but he’s already reached 20 homers. Cabrera (.347) is the only Tiger with more than 50 PA and an on-base percentage of at least .330, while Dixon (.470) and Castellanos (.462) are the only ones with a slugging percentages of at least .435 — and again, the latter is no longer in uniform. He earned his escape.
By and large, these are not glove men playing, either. The Tigers entered Wednesday tied for 27th in the majors in defensive efficiency (.671), one point out of the bottom spot, and they owned sole possession of 27th place in terms of both UZR (-22.1) and DRS (-54). Jones owns the majors’ lowest UZR among center fielders (-12.6), and he’s been flanked by Christin Stewart in left (-5.9) and Castellanos in right (-4.2); as you can see from the above home run clip, Dixon and Goodrum might not be ready for prime time, either. When he’s been healthy enough to play — not that often, given that he’s missed 10 weeks due to a recurrent right quad strain — Jordy Mercer has been lousy at shortstop (-4.0 UZR, which prorates to -13.5 per 160 games, and let’s not even think too hard about his -9 DRS).
WAR-wise, only Goodrum (2.0) and Castellanos (0.9) have accumulated more than 0.3 WAR, while six players have -0.6 or less (two of them in fewer than 50 PA apiece), “led” by Hicks, who leads the team with 63 starts at catcher. The team’s total WAR is the second-lowest of the post-strike era:
| RK | Season | Team | Bat | Base Run | Field | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1998 | Twins | -136.4 | -1.2 | -107.0 | -4.5 |
| 2 | 2019 | Tigers | -125.5 | -3.7 | -31.1 | -1.5 |
| 3 | 2003 | Tigers | -155.8 | -6.5 | -43.9 | -1.2 |
| 4 | 2002 | Tigers | -134.1 | -9.4 | -53.5 | -1.0 |
| 5 | 2004 | Diamondbacks | -204.5 | -7.7 | -33.7 | -0.4 |
| 6 | 1996 | Tigers | -124.1 | -6.5 | -78.0 | 0.2 |
| 7 | 2004 | Royals | -143.6 | -9.3 | -32.9 | 1.0 |
| 8 | 2001 | Expos | -169.8 | -2.2 | -48.0 | 1.0 |
| 9 | 1999 | Rockies | -140.8 | -5.3 | -87.0 | 1.3 |
| 10 | 1999 | Twins | -175.9 | -3.5 | -8.0 | 1.3 |
Sweet fancy Moses, when the Tigers have been bad, they’ve been reaaaally bad, but none of their other squads of ignominious infamy — or is that infamous ignominy? — are directly connected to this one. Still, it seems quite possible that this will stand as the worst collection of position player performances in this millennium.
On the pitching side, the Tigers’ 5.68 runs allowed per game is the majors’ fourth-worst mark; they’re way ahead of the Orioles (6.40) and slightly ahead of the Rockies (5.88) and Mariners (5.80). The rotation is 26th in ERA (5.28) but tied for 16th in FIP (4.65), and 14th in WAR –that’s downright respectable. Staff ace Matthew Boyd has been pretty good (4.38 ERA, 4.10 FIP, 2.9 WAR) amid the rubble of the lineup, and Spencer Turnbull (3.68 ERA, 4.05 FIP, 2.0 WAR) has been far better than his 3-10 won-loss record indicates. Likewise, albeit to a lesser degree, has Daniel Norris (4.98 ERA, 4.67 FIP, 1.5 WAR) despite a 3-10 record of his own. His numbers translate to a 108 ERA- and 100 FIP-; he’s been sorta-league average. Norris and Boyd, incidentally, came to the Tigers via the July 30, 2015 trade that sent David Price to the Blue Jays; a day later, they netted Michael Fulmer (and Luis Cessa) by trading Yoenis Cespedes to the Mets. Had Fulmer not gone down with Tommy John surgery in March, the rotation would be that much stronger. As it is, the unit has featured the now-injured likes of Jordan Zimmermann (7.13 ERA, 4.80 FIP, 0.9 WAR), Tyson Ross (6.11 ERA, 5.99 FIP, 0.0 WAR) and Matt Moore (10 innings, 0.5 WAR), 25-year-old rookie lefty Tyler Alexander (recently moved to the bullpen) and Edwin Jackson, the last of whom has made two very good starts (including Wednesday night against the Mariners) after being pummeled for a 9.35 ERA in 28.1 innings with the Blue Jays.
The bullpen has been closer to what you’d expect for a team this bad, ranking 27th in ERA (5.19), 29th in FIP (5.16), and 24th in WAR (0.3). The unit has the majors’ lowest strikeout rate (20.4%), and second-lowest strikeout-to-walk differential (10.3%) as well as the fourth-highest home run rate (1.58 per nine). Closer Shane Greene far outpitched his peripherals (1.18 ERA, 3.69 FIP) before being traded to the Braves for lefty Joey Wentz and outfielder Travis Demeritte on July 31; the latter, a 35+ FV prospect, has hit .283/.370/.457 (118 wRC+) in 54 PA since the deal. Buck Farmer has been pretty solid (3.66 ERA, 3.36 FIP, 0.8 WAR), but no other reliever has more than 0.3 WAR, and Joe Jiménez, who’s been lit for a 5.59 ERA since making last year’s All-Star team, has the team’s only two saves (one on Wednesday) since Greene left town.
In short, this is a pretty ghastly squad that’s gotten almost nothing positive from anybody making more than $4 million (Greene’s salary). The 36-year-old Cabrera, who’s hitting a thin .285/.347/.392 with eight homers, is making $30 million this year and is owed another $132 million through 2023 (!). Future Hall of Famer though he may be, he’s a shell of his former self after playing just 38 games last year due to a hamstring strain and a ruptured biceps tendon. The 33-year-old Zimmermann, who’s making $25 million this year and is owed the same amount for next season, has delivered just 4.5 WAR over 468.2 innings in four seasons while missing time due to neck, shoulder, and elbow injuries; he missed nearly eight weeks from late April to late June due to a UCL sprain and is currently on the IL due to neck spasms. Ross ($5.75 million) made just seven starts before being felled by ulnar neuritis, and Mercer ($5.25 million) has been just a hair better than replacement level.
The good news is that aside from the millstones of the Cabrera and Zimmermann contracts, the team has no money committed towards next year’s roster, and they still have three years of control apiece for Boyd and Fulmer, two for Norris, and five for Turnbull. The minor league system ranks 12th in our valuations, and 13th on Baseball America’s just-released org rankings as well. They’ve got some quality pitching on the way, with righties Casey Mize and Matt Manning, and lefty Tarik Skubal all pitching well at Double-A Erie. Mize, the first overall pick in the 2018 draft, is now our number nine prospect overall; he’s dominated at Double-A Erie despite missing time due to shoulder inflammation. Manning, their 2016 first-round pick who’s now 33rd on our list, has also been strong thanks to an improved changeup, and Skubal, a ninth-round pick last year, is pitching his way into the picture as well. Right fielder Riley Greene (this year’s first-round pick) and third baseman Isaac Paredes (a 2015 July 2 signing acquired from the Cubs in the Wilson trade) rank 79th and 96th on our list, respectively. On the other hand, 2015 supplemental first-round pick Daz Cameron, a center fielder, and 2016 fourth-rounder Kyle Funkhouser, a righty, have both scuffled in their second go-rounds at Triple-A.
You can’t win ’em all, and perhaps I’ve belabored that point by digging in on a team that’s really tanking, and is right now in line for the number one draft pick for the second year out of three. At least the Orioles have turned to a new regime with links to successful turnarounds in Houston (where GM Mike Elias was amateur scouting director and assistant GM) and Chicago (where manager Brandon Hyde was a bench and first base coach for the Cubs). Gardenhire piloted the Twins to six postseason appearances in his first nine years in Minnesota (2002-10) but earned a reputation as an old school type, and was a conservative choice to head down this rocky road. Avila, who’s been with the Tigers since 2002, has drawn criticism for his lack of creativity and the team’s belated embrace of analytics. The extension he received in early July, before his trade deadline performance could be evaluated, raised some eyebrows, as did the team’s decision to hold onto Fulmer until he got hurt instead of dealing him last summer or winter; they now run the same risk with Boyd. Still, the team’s pitching inventory suggests the long-term situation isn’t as grim as what’s on display at Comerica Park. But right now, the Tigers are tough to watch.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Christian Bethancourt might actually be an improvement at catcher for the Tigers if they decide to grab him on a minor league deal.
You leave my sweet child Jake Rogers alone.
Of course, Bethancourt would probably be a backup catcher.
Yeah….honestly hes too good for detroit. The pitching is some of the worst in history…..crossing him up. His statcast poptimes have been 1.7’s and his OPS is over .800.
Yadier Molina’s first 4 years in MLB he didn’t pop a 1.7 ever, and his OPS was never over .650.
I was speaking about Jake Rogers…..they’ve got a goldmine with him. Comparing him to yadi and he’s performing better as a rookie as a more productive hitter (ops) and def. Bright future for the young kid as it will only get better.
No, Molina posted an OPS over .650 during 3 of his first 4 years, while you’re talking about a guy with fewer than 50 MLB PAs. Talk about a small sample size!
I would argue they are having a successful season for what they are actually intending to do. The new race in Baseball is to the bottom.
I highly doubt the Tigers were intending to race to the bottom. They kept Fulmer too long. They didn’t trade Boyd. Basically, a few years back, they mortgaged the future on teams that weren’t good enough, but they still tried to win it all. Now is that past’s future.
The decision not to trade Fulmer looked bad at the time. It was pretty obvious Tigers weren’t going anywhere anytime soon. The farm system was utterly barren, and the team’s arrow was trending down. I don’t know what they were thinking.
I don’t think Boyd is quite in the same boat. The team is 2 years closer to being back in contention (which could happen as soon as 2022), and Boyd is a plausible extension candidate given his age and team control. I think it’s not as slam-dunk a situation as the Fulmer situation was.
Boyd isn’t as much a slam dunk as Fulmer, but they will likely chew up a lot of value in next 2 years by keeping him. I’m not that optimistic on Tigers rebuild being ready soon as they are starting at such a low point.
Agreed. Their position player prospects are ghastly. Rebuilds built primarily through pitching prospects is a risky endeavor…just look at the White Sox for validation on that.
Yes and no with Fulmer. A young starter with a ton of control (he was pretty much the only good young player in their last gasp with that crew) was going to fetch a pretty high price. I don’t think any other team wanted to pay the price they put out there, so they held onto him. Now, you could argue that they should have lowered their price given how every pitcher is pretty much a time bomb and they were coming to the end of the run. But if they traded him for a lesser return, we’d be sitting here talking about how the prospects they got for Fulmer were bums,
I’m not sure I’d hold onto Boyd. While the pitching prospects they have look really good, their position players aside from Paredes aren’t particularly good (Greene could be really good, but he’s likely debuting around 22/23). I’d try to flip Boyd and Farmer for any position player prospects they could get.
What Joe Joe said. If they were trying to race to the bottom, they massively effed up by not trading Boyd and by waiting too long to trade castellanos, Greene, and Fulmer. If they’re racing to the bottom, they’re not racing hard enough.
Yeah, that was Illitch’s fault. He was desperate to see another winner (which he ultimately didn’t get), and now that he’s dead he doesn’t care about the sorry state he’s left the team in.
This is what they have to do. As Joe Joe says, after years of spending dumb money on past-his-prime Cabrera, Zimmerman, Victor Martinez, Anibal Sanchez, and Frankie Rodriguez, the Tigers succumbed to what happens to most teams that do heavy free agent spending and don’t have amazing J2 player acquisition and minor-league player development: racing to the bottom in pursuit of high draft picks.
The Tigers may only be a bit behind the White Sox rebuild, though a lot depends on the rebound of Fulmer. Mize, Manning, Greene, and Paredes comprise only 4 of the Top-100 prospects, while the White Sox had Tim Anderson, Moncada, Kopech, Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez, Eloy, and Cease after the trades of Sale, Eaton, and Quintana and would soon add Luis Robert and Nick Madrigal through the draft. If the Tigers can trade Boyd for 2 Top-100’s, get 2 more Top-100’s in the next two drafts, and 2 more in trades for Fulmer and Norris, they could be back in the Free Agent market for a wild card shot in 2022, but more likely 2023.
The big difference between the White Sox rebuild and the Tigers’ is that the Sox had some actual big talent to move in Sale, Eaton, and Quintana, and they got very good talent in return. No one is going to give the Tigers two top-100s for Matt Boyd, and no one is going to give them anything of real value for Fulmer or Norris. So they are basing this rebuild entirely on drafting well, and the above article makes a pretty good argument that the current FO has no real track record of doing that. Competing in 2022-23 seems… optimistic.
Agreed with this. Boyd, to me, likely brings back one top 100 and a couple other interesting pieces. Which…sure, those interesting pieces could explode and become stars. Fulmer…I think the only way he fetches a big return is if he comes back and does very well. Then flip him.
Competing in 2022? No way. Interesting team with some fun young players like Mize, Manning, Paredes in their first couple of years? Sure.
In a world where 1.5 years of Marcus Stroman and cash didnt bring back a single top 100 those returns seem……hopefull. To put it nicely.
Maybe Boyd, if he keeps performing, but there’s zero chance of getting much for Fulmer or Norris unless they have a sudden breakout. And even then…
Ironically, that 1998 Twins team at the “top” of the WAR list finished 70-92, which was 4th place, 5 games ahead of the last place Tigers. I’m curious how a team with a meh 70-92 record has the worst team WAR since 1995. I wish baseball had some kind of relegation system so the Tigers could just sort of disappear from MLB for a couple years until they could field a team with at least some squinty sort of 0.5% chance at the playoffs because these last 3 years have been painful to watch.
That chart was for position player WAR. I’m guessing the 98 Twins had a decent pitching staff to make up for it.
Yep, only Mike Trombley (-0.1) and Travis Baptist (-0.3) had negative WAR on the pitching side.
Also, I keep forgetting (even as a Twins fan) that Brad Radke was a pretty good pitcher. 10 seasons with at least 2 WAR apiece, with 4.2 WAR for that ’98 team which was tied for his 4th best season by WAR.
That, and the Twins are only at the “top” because of their ludicrous fielding numbers, which it’s fair to be skeptical of for a team from that long ago. The Tigers position players might really be the worst of this era.
Oh wow, those are some terrible fielding numbers. Especially for Lawton and Nixon who were really fleet of foot. I know that doesn’t always translate into range in the outfield, but it usually does.
Relegation may or may not have its merits, but the idea of relegating the Tigers seems to be an argument against it. I think relegation is usually brought up for teams not trying to win. The problem with the Tigers is they tried to hard to win. They wouldn’t throw in the towel until there was no towel left to throw.
So, if this were Rocky 4, we’re at the point where Apollo is convulsing on the canvas while Drago says “If he dies, he dies”.
“…the Tigers are tough to watch”. Which doesn’t even take into account the accompanying historically bad broadcast team. Craig Monroe is only one i’d give more than a C, the rest are simply awful.
Couldn’t agree more. Really miss Mario and Rod. Hopefully CMo will be full-time analyst next season, and they keep Gibby and Jack away from the booth for good.
Perhaps they decided to set the bar low this year and their only goal was ‘let’s pick broadcasters that won’t get into fisticuffs with each other this year’. So that’s a plus.
It’s brutal – 9 innings of monotone recollections and stilted interrogatory.
Plus, you never know who’s going to show up; there’s no rhyme or reason as to who covers which games – day/night, home/road – and when. Jack Morris drops in for a handful of games and then goes MIA for extended periods of time. It’s bizarre.
The only bright spots, IMO, are Monroe and Kane, but even they are kept in a constant state of flux for the likes of Petry and Fletcher, and sometimes Keating or Thompson or York.
The production decisions coming out of FSD/Sinclair are questionable at best at this point, while the overall prog. and prod. values have been lacking for some time now. As of January, the $6.69 per-subscriber fee for FSD was second-highest out of all of the RSNs – second only to YES at $6.74 (AdAge, 2019). Talk about bang for your buck!
Broadcast rights for Tigers/Pistons/Wings are supposedly up in 2021.
Maybe the rumblings that Ilitch & Co, and maybe Gores/Platinum, are serious about starting their own RSN will prove to be true.
Its so brutal to listen too. Gibson acts like hes gods gift of baseball and he doesn’t know anything……he likes all the players that hit the ball on the ground and draw no walks. ha!!
Its not 1970….these players don’t throw 87mph anymore, they throw 100mph. Swing is not the same.
For example, Gibson tries to tell everyone what Jake Rogers is doing wrong all broadcast when he’s the only player with a BB% of >15% and has 4 HR’s in his first 11 games for a tigers record. ha!! Been the most productive tiger hitter since he was called up. Yet you wouldn’t know that listening to gibson because he only knows how to read batting average.
Rogers OPS is over .800 for a catcher simply because he draws walks and hits bombs. But the tiger way is to draw zero walks, out hit your opponent 13 to 8 hits in a game and still lose somehow…….why? because gibson and front office reward singles hitters, they absolutely love a guy who hits for .300. and still only has a .300 obp. with a .300 slg%. They have zero power and it seems like they encourage slap hitters too. your OBP needs to be .100 higher than your avg by drawing walks.
They are so far behind its kind of sad to be honest. They have all these ex players from 1970 advising them .
Uh, it’s pretty difficult to get an OBP .100 points higher than your batting average.
yes you are correct, but i was making a point….point remains the same. you draw 15% walks and you are pretty close to being .100 higher on obp. Its all about walks and bombs….not slap hitting singles.
A 15% walk rate is well above league average though.
Batting average is obviously not the end-all-be-all of measuring a hitters’ performance, but it’s still something I look at in evaluating a hitter. It’s like BB% or ISO, they tell something about a hitter, but not the whole story, so it’s important to look at all of them when evaluating and/or comparing hitters.
If the power is even, I’d rather have a guy who posts about an average walk rate but also hits for a decent average, as singles are more valuable than walks.
Thats why the tigers are dead last….they think like you too. Its not about BA. Its about walks and bombs period. They just outhit the rays in a game last night 10-5…and they still lost, the tigers way. They out pitched and out hit them, and still lost.
Because their hits mean nothing, they are all singles and they draw no walks so noone else is on base.
I actually like Gibby. His voice is not the best, but, he is very intelligent & brings value, IMO. I almost always learn something listening to him. Has a dry sense of humor, too. The best Tiger TV announcing crew post Kell-Kaline was the Josh Lewin-Gibby tandem in the early 2000’s. You just wonder how much the Parkinson’s wears him down. Monroe is pretty good, too & I think they’re grooming him to be the guy down the road.
Morris is god awful. Boring, nothing interesting to say, way behind on analytics, etc. Petry is better than Morris (better personality), but, still stinks. Shepherd is a bad play by play man..who gives an MLB job to a guy that worked at WDFN & called UM basketball?
Gut says they went cheap knowing the product was going to stink.
Morris is on Twins broadcasts, too. I’ve heard one good piece of analysis (Dozier ripped an inside pitch foul, Dick Bremer wondered why anyone would go inside on him since he had dead pull power, Morris responded that if you pitch him far enough inside, all he can do is pull it foul.), but otherwise his only purpose is to provide nostalgia from the ’80s.
I would like to commend their excellent radio broadcasters, though. Particularly Dan Dickerson – he’s not only excellent in his play-by-play calling, but he’s very knowledgeable about the game. He frequently quotes articles from fangraphs during broadcasts. Boy, I don’t know how I’d get through the Tigers season without him.
Yeah, Dickerson is a delight. MLB.tv lets you run the radio audio over the TV pictures, and that’s pretty much saved Tigers broadcasting for me.
Thank god for MLB.TV with radio feed audio overlay. Dan Dickerson is close to the best in the business, and Jim Price is for the most part a tell-em-like-it-is analyst who’s not afraid to call out players and coaches when they deserve it.
The Tigers have been terrible this year, but I still think the future is bright, even brighter than Jay indicates at the end of the article. Christin Stewart and Jeimer Candelario, together, can’t be as bad as they were this season. They have the best 1-2 pitching prospects of any system, with both of them in the mix to be considered the best pitching prospect in baseball. They have two keepers in the rotation long-term in Boyd and Turnbull. Alex Faedo and Joey Wentz look like potential rotation pieces (probably only one of them will work, out, but that’s okay). Paredes has been great in AA as a 20-year old, and there is an array of interesting of potential complementary pieces (Daz Cameron, Jake Rogers, Willi Castro). Somehow, Riley Greene is holding his own in A-ball. And I don’t have any idea who this Tarik Skubal guy is but it looks like his stuff is just too much for minor league batters. Almost all of these guys are at AA or AAA, and this is also before we factor in the likely #1 or #2 pick. This could be a .500 team in 2021 and a contender in 2022.
You are always astute re: prospects, and I sure hope you are right. There just is not a ton of help coming on offense, I fear. Candelario and Stewart have lost about 10 points of wOBA based on Zips ROS forecast versus pre-season. Saying they are not super athletic might be putting it mildly. I don’t expect them to age well, and it’s hard not to imagine Paredes going down a similar path. Seems to be a lot of guys where another Castellanos is the upside. I wonder if the organization is just bad at identifying and developing hitters. A bunch of bad plate discipline profiles in the high minors. James freaking McCann is the last high draft pick they brought to the majors, and he has to go to another team before he learns how to hit.
Of course, it could also take far longer than that. But you are correct that the way they are going to win in 2021, if they do, is going to be on the strength of the pitching staff. I’m particularly high on Manning. Of course, either he or Mize could blow out their arm entirely or suddenly stop managing to strike people out, but I think that when you add them to Boyd and Turnbull, and to Faedo and Wentz, you have the beginnings of a pretty good rotation even if only one of the two guys in each category don’t pain out.
As far as being bad at identifying hitters, it probably doesn’t help that the only hitters they’ve selected in the first round since 2015 are Stewart and Greene, and Stewart was at #34. The biggest problem was that they got nothing for JD Martinez, Michael Fulmer, and Nick Castellanos–although they did okay with Wilson/Avila and Verlander.
They’ve whiffed on a # of hitters in the last 4-5 years. Took Derek Hill as 1st rd pick in 2014, he’s hitting .225 in AA. Wasted a 2nd rd pick on recently suspended Reynaldo Rivera in 2017, 2019 2nd rounder Nick Quintana hit .175 w/ a /450 OPS in West Mi before getting busted down to short season ball. 2018 2nd rd pick Parker Meadows is hitting .220 in West MI. Kody Clemens is hitting .225 in Lakeland. Daz Cameron is not hitting despite the rabbit ball in AAA (Of course, you have to actually hit the ball for the rabbit ball to work).
The international prospects are non-existent. They focus almost solely on “big college” hitters (exception being Meadows) with low upside & catchers from round’s 2 thru 20, no high upside athlete types.
Don’t write off Cameron yet; he’s not that far off, and he’s 22 and provides defensive value.
The other guys, like Quintana and Parker Meadows and Wenceel Perez–they have a chance to turn things around. Even Kody Clemens is putting up a league average batting line by wRC+. It’s not a good group and odds are on only one or two of these four turning into a major leaguer of some kinds…but aside from Derek Hill, who is a bit of a long-shot to even be a 4th outfielder, none of these guys are done yet.
Parker Meadows is 19 years old, and he’s been a lot better over the last month or so.
But, that’s the point, the top 5-6 hitters, other than Paredes, are ALL struggling. Not giving up on any of them, but, the #’s don’t lie.
Cameron & Meadows are both young for their level, so I think there is hope with both of them, esp Meadows who has had a better 2nd half. Clemens, OTOH, is in A Ball,is 24 next May & poor fielding 2B. Quintana was a Pac 12 hitter that struggled mightily in Low A Ball. Perez has no power at all.
Main point still stands- no international signings that work, very conservative drafting approach & very few late round finds. You need 9 position players & I see 3-4 at most right now .
I dont agree that Candelario is unathletic. Watching him in the field he surprised me with how spry he is. The bat has been a disappointment this year but I really believe he will turn it around and put together a few good seasons
One of the craziest parts about the 2003 Tigers team was that they were in the World Series three years later.
Ahhh, good to see the 2004 DBacks mentioned. That team actually had some hope of getting back to the post-season at the start of the year. However, things didn’t go well between injuries and underperformance and they decided to blow it up at the trade deadline by trading Steve Finley and Robbie ALomar (you’re forgiven if you forgot that ALomar was a DBack for half a season). They then told Luis Gonzalez to have the elbow surgery he had been holding off on (good God did teams run on him that year, he could barely lob it back in to the cutoff man). They then ran out the absolute worst team imaginable the rest of the year. I’m looking at their lineups now and at least half of those guys were out of baseball within 2 or 3 years.They single-handedly cost Randy Johnson the CY that year (245 IP, 2.60 ERA, 290 K but only a 16-14 record thanks to his teammates)
I truly have a hard time believing any team is worse than the 2nd half 2004 DBacks .
“% of Team PA to Players with < 90 wRC+"
Finishing in a very close second place, the Colorado Rockies.
But the focus primarily remains on the pitching (which has also been really bad).
T’s and P’s to Sporer
They are actually even worse at the plate. If you remove pitchers(which you should always do when comparing team stats for the entire MLB), the Marlins have a wRC+ of 81 compared to the Tigers 78 and only the white sox and orioles are in the eighties (tied at 88).
Coming into the season I liked Niko Goodrum because he could play pretty much any position.
Apparently they need him to play ALL the positions.
Honestly, they should just keep him at SS. He has been decent there & not sure what running out Jordy Mercer does for them at this point.
As someone who likes fantasy baseball and the analytical side of real baseball, but hardly ever watches an actual game, can someone explain how that is scored as a HR instead of an error?
Probably because it was not considered a play that required merely ordinary effort.
This really doesn’t fit here because it was Dombrowski, though Avila was his deputy, but I need some venting, and I don’t say things on the internet a lot, but you folks are pretty alright, so here goes:
The post-2014 offseason was really where they took a perennial contender and set the stages for the current and ongoing toilet-in-a-dumpster fire:
Highlights:
Scherzer signs with the Nationals – rumors were that he wanted out of Detroit, so maybe unavoidable here, but should have offered him all of the money they had instead of…
Signed V-Mart to 4/$68 – he was awesome the year before but it was huge overpay, and was a disastrous contract
Traded Eugenio Suarez for expiring contract Alfredo Simon – one of the worst trades in the team’s history
Traded Devon Travis for Anthony Gose – the end result wasn’t much but Travis was a prospect who could actually hit when healthy, and Gose was a known entity who sucked, and it showed the mindset to get limited PV at any cost
Traded Robbie Ray and Domingo Leyba for Shane Greene – had just traded Doug Fister for Ray in a confusing deal in the previous offseason; paid for the upside on Greene and got the regression and had to turn him into a bullpen arm; Ray becomes a damn good pitcher in ARI; imagine what he would’ve been traded for this deadline and compare that to what we actually got for Greene. Leyba would probably be one of the top hitters in this weak org now as well
Traded Rick Porcello for Yoenis Cespedes and Alex Wilson – probably a wash here because Fullmer comes from Cespedes, but Porcello has been pretty good since the trade and may have signed an extension if we kept him in Detroit.
Cut Hernan Perez – nitpicky and this was in June, but he became a useful player that would have been an upgrade over what they’ve ran out on the field since discarding Kinsler
Signed Joba Chamberlain to be a late inning bullpen guy – cut him in July because he was toast; their bullpen was utter garbage in ’15 with Chamberlain, Bruce Rondon, Neftali Feliz, Joe Nathan, 2015 Tom Gorzelanny! and Joakim Soria who they used Corey Knebel and Jake Thompson (headlined a Cole Hamels deal) to get in July ’14 and then flipped him for he-can’t-hit-a-lick-but-boy-is-his-defense-overrated Jacoby Jones
Might as well pile on because I’m stretching my initial premise but this is how you eff up a good team – in the 2014 draft, they took scrub Derek Hill in Rd 1; the next four picks were Cole Tucker, Matt Chapman, Michael Chavis and Luke Weaver.
Fire Dombrowski in August under odd circumstances, maybe he had just given up, replace him with Avila. The next offseason is not as bad because they *only* overpay Jordan Zimmerman an ungodly amount, trade Chad Green and Luis Cessa for Justin Wilson to finally shore up that bullpen and sign Justin Upton to a decent deal and then trade him for a pack of gum.
Not like I care or anything though
If only Mike Ilitch had died 2 1/2 earlier than he did…
Good post & pretty on point. The time to start the rebuild was 2014 or 2015, not 2017. The decline had started in 2014 (snuck into the playoffs, bounced in the ALDS without winning a game). When Scherzer doesn’t re-sign, they should then not re-sign V-Mart & no excuse to trade a 23 year old SS, who had already made MLB & could hit, for a 35 year old 300 lb pitcher. For God sake, move Suarez to 3B, where Castellanos was awful, move Nick to OF & you have no need to trade for Cespedes. They were just rearranging weak spots that off season without getting better.
They got burned with Simon, Greene, & Nathan in not realizing all 3 had unsustainable lucky performances the prior year. Behind the time on anayltics.
BTW, the 2016 Zimm/Upton signings also cost the a 2nd/3rd rd pick. Not that it means much with how they’ve drafted, but, still you’re mortgaging the future again. & Justin Wilson, along with Alex Avila, got them Candelario (If he can hit) & Paredes, so I guess the book isn’t closed on that one yet.