The Twins Won the Trade That Had To Happen

Pablo Lopez
Jasen Vinlove-USA TODAY Sports

Trades aren’t inevitable. We hear rumors of some player being on the block all the time. Sometimes, that ends in an actual trade. Frequently, though, it ends in nothing: some team shops a mystery player around, no one bites, and then everyone goes about their business as if the initial trade rumor never happened. But sometimes the rumors are just so strong that they’re bound to come true eventually. To pick a name at random (note: not random), the Marlins have reportedly been looking to trade Pablo López for eons. They can’t hit, they have plenty of starting pitchers, and López seems like the best trade option when considering the combination of potential return and expendability.

Likewise, Luis Arraez has intermittently been the subject of trade speculation. He’s a good hitter and versatile defender, but the Twins have enough infielders that they’ve been reduced to playing the 5-foot-10 (generously) Arraez at first base. When Carlos Correa returned to the fold, it looked like another year of Arraez at first base, so it didn’t take a rocket scientist to surmise that the Twins might look to move an infielder. They needed pitching. The Marlins needed hitting and crave contact ability. What happens when an unstoppable force meets an exceedingly movable object? The trade that had to happen, of course.

As Jeff Passan reported, Luis Arraez is now a Marlin after the Twins traded him for López and two prospects: Jose Salas and Byron Chourio. Both Arraez and López are the kind of player that smart front offices love to build around. They have multiple years of team control remaining at below-market rates thanks to the arbitration process. They’re both borderline All-Stars, and both have utility on more or less any team — Arraez because of his versatility and López because everyone needs pitching. Players like these two form the backbone of every sustainable winner, so it’s no surprise that each team demanded such a player when trading one away.

My macro-level overview of the trade: I like Minnesota’s side of the deal much more and think that the Marlins will regret this one. I’ll get into the exact details of why I think that at the end of the article, after I talk about the players involved, but if you came here thinking, “Ben Clemens, tell me what to think,” there’s my one-line summary. Now, let’s start out by talking about Miami’s side of the deal.

This one is pretty straightforward: the Marlins came into the offseason prioritizing contact hitters. Arraez is perhaps the best contact hitter in the game. He won the AL batting title last year, and both ZiPS and Steamer project him to bat above .300 this year, the only player to clear that line in both projection systems (Masataka Yoshida came close, though). The Marlins also have a ton of positions to fill, and they seem to be constructing their lineup around versatility. With Arraez, Jean Segura, and Joey Wendle, they have a lot of multi-positional infielders, which will serve them well if they need to mix and match due to injuries this year.

Now, why do the Marlins want contact hitters so badly? I’m not entirely sure. Their reported reasons are the large dimensions of their home stadium and the forthcoming ban on infield overshifts. I’m not sure that either of those is an exactly perfect fit with Arraez, though. Starting with the dimensions of the park, loanDepot park (sic) and Target Field have similar park factors for batting average on contact and doubles, using a variety of sources for park data. Doubles are Arraez’s bread and butter; he’s the best line drive hitter in baseball for my money, and line drives are the best way to hit doubles. He’s also impossible to shift against; he sprays his grounders, and teams deployed a shift on only 41 of the 2,413 pitches he saw in 2022. I think Arraez will be a phenomenal contact hitter in 2023, but I don’t think that will be because of either his new home stadium or the new defensive regulations.

That doesn’t mean Arraez isn’t a valuable bat. He sports a career 120 wRC+, and both of our projection systems, as well as THE BAT, think he’ll put up comparable numbers this year. He strikes out so infrequently and hits so many line drives that he’s seemingly always on base; his career .374 mark is tied for 13th in all of baseball starting in his 2019 debut season. He might not hit for a ton of power, but he still advances plenty of runners thanks to his singles and doubles. He was good enough offensively last year that despite hitting only eight home runs and bleeding defensive value by playing at first, he was worth 3.2 WAR for the Twins.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed. We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member. 1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other. 2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off. 3. Dark mode and Classic mode! 4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them. 5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects. 6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.) 7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only. 8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO. 9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members. 10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features! We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it. In case you didn't read all that, here's the short version. Membership includes:
✓Ad-free browsing
✓Unlimited FanGraphs & RotoGraphs articles
✓Historical & platoon projections
✓Leaderboard & player-page stat heatmaps
✓One-click data exports
✓Customizable player-page dashboards
✓Dark & Classic site modes
✓Weekly Members-only mailbag
✓FanGraphs Walk-Off, your year in review
✓Optional homepage photo removal
✓Gift articles to non-Members
✓Full postseason coverage

Amusingly, though, he didn’t have an obvious defensive home in Miami either. With Jazz Chisholm Jr. locking down second base, Wendle at short, and Segura playing third, there was no reasonable configuration of middle infielders that would put Arraez at second. To solve that problem, the Marlins are moving Chisholm to center field, which comes with some question marks of its own. Chisholm has played the middle infield exclusively as a professional, though you can see what the Marlins are thinking there. He’s quite fast and wasn’t a premium infield defender, so center might fit his skillset better in the long run, even if it takes a few months for him to get used to a new position.

That defensive shuffling is probably worth it; Arraez will immediately be one of the Marlins’ best hitters. Regardless of whether he lines up at second base all year or whether the team ends up moving Chisholm back to the infield, Miami’s offense is comfortably better now than it was before this trade, and likely quite a lot better than its 2022 iteration. This will be a slightly better team overall, too, in my opinion: Trevor Rogers can slide up to fifth starter now, and he was overqualified as a depth piece. If you made me pick an over/under on the win total, I’d be about half a win higher today than I was before this trade.

For the Twins, Arraez was a man without a home. Their biggest team construction problem, at least on the offensive side of the ball, was that they had too many solid-bat corner types, a category that Arraez got lumped into thanks to Correa and Jorge Polanco holding down the middle infield. Maybe Arraez was the best of the bunch, but between Max Kepler, Jose Miranda, Joey Gallo, Alex Kirilloff, Kyle Garlick (back in the fold after clearing waivers), Trevor Larnach, and Nick Gordon, there were a lot of mouths to feed and not a ton of positions to use. Maybe that group is light on first base experience, and maybe Miranda will end up as a full-time third baseman, but I’m pretty sure they’ll be able to find league-average hitting at first base to replace Arraez, even if it means signing a veteran to platoon with Kirilloff or something. The loss of Arraez hurts, but I don’t think they’ll lose three wins worth of offensive production, even if he has a 3 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Twins desperately needed pitching, and López is just what the doctor ordered there. Fresh off of a healthy season with a 3.75 ERA and matching peripherals, he’s probably the second-best Twins starter behind Sonny Gray. I thought they were two pitchers short before this trade; they had roughly four proven starters and plenty of question marks. They still don’t have a ton of depth, but their rotation looks a lot better with Bailey Ober and Josh Winder as the sixth and seventh options than as the fifth and sixth.

There’s some dispute about López’s true talent level, but I’m bought in on what the projection systems think: he’s squarely above average and a borderline All-Star if he throws a full season. That’s the pitching version of Arraez, and given that the Twins are replacing Arraez with some solid bats in their own right but are upgrading from poor pitching to López, that one-for-one switch would already make their major league team better in 2023 in my estimation.

That’s not the end of the deal, though. Both players are under team control after 2023, and there were two other prospects in the deal. Arraez won’t be a free agent until after the 2025 season, and López will hit free agency after 2024. That extra year of team control led me to rank Arraez 42nd in my top 50 trade value list last year; López finished just outside the top 50. Team control is the currency of the realm these days; a straight-up trade of Arraez for López would have slightly favored the Marlins in my opinion.

To even things out, the Marlins kicked in Salas, who we consider their second-best prospect, as well as Chourio. Salas is a big, projectable shortstop whose 6-foot-2 frame gives him a solid power floor. He looked tired in his Arizona Fall League appearance at the end of last year but looked good in A ball and acceptable in Hi-A during the season, so it’s hardly surprising that he wasn’t 100% by year’s end. He’s a switch-hitter, but per Eric Longenhagen, he looks more complete so far from the left side, though he sometimes struggles with back-foot breaking balls. Though he didn’t hit much in the AFL, Eric thought he looked the part defensively, which removes one of the riskiest parts of his projection; if he sticks at shortstop, his bat will look much better. Eric sees him as a low-variance 50 FV prospect as a shortstop whose bat is above average for the position. Any upside from there would come from Salas growing into more power, which is hardly out of the question; he’s still only 19, after all.

Chourio made his professional debut in the DSL last summer and hit a ton, though without much authority, batting .344 and walking nearly as much as he struck out but only slugging .410. Per Eric, though, that might not last: Chourio is extremely projectable physically, which is an excellent fit with his plus contact skills. There’s some chance he moves off of shortstop as he matures, but he also has the frame that makes Eric think he might stick in the Goldilocks Zone, with strength and power but enough athleticism to remain at short. It’s extremely early to say much more than that, given that he’s a 17-year-old who just started playing professional baseball. But as an extra name in a deal I already liked, he seems like an excellent pickup for the Twins. Most players who splash onto the scene in the DSL don’t turn into world beaters, but some do, and I’d give Chourio better odds than your average DSL prospect of making the majors one day.

That’s a meaningful minor league talent infusion for the Minnesota system. Per The Board, Salas is now the Twins’ third-best prospect, and while Chourio isn’t on there yet, he’s one hot-hitting summer away from vaulting up prospect boards. I also think Minnesota got better for 2023. Miami needs Arraez to be much better than López to come out even on this deal, and quite frankly, I don’t think that’s likely.

In my opinion, Miami made what I like to call a second-level trade mistake. The first level of trade valuations is simply to add everyone up. You know what I’m talking about; who among us hasn’t dreamed up a fantasy trade of fifteen marginal prospects for one star? Hey, you might say, the total value looks roughly equivalent. These trades don’t happen in real life for obvious reasons.

The second level of trade valuations is to only care about who gets the best player in the trade. I think that’s Miami here, particularly when you take into account the extra year of team control. If you’re wary of making a first-level mistake, you might end up doing this kind of trade: giving up multiple talented players to get an even better one. The odds that either Salas or Chourio eclipse Arraez as players are somewhere between slim and none; prospects mostly don’t pan out. That’s all well and good, but Arraez isn’t better than López by very much at all.

There’s a classic admonition that explains second-level thinking well: never trade a quarter for two dimes. That’s not what happened here, though; I think the Twins traded a quarter for a heretofore-unseen 20-cent coin, a dime, and a nickel. That’s 35 cents for the cost of 25, if you’re following my strained analogy. Sure, the Marlins have a shiny quarter (though potentially an out-of-position one), but they emptied out their change purse to get him, and used some valuable coins at that.

Even stranger, in my opinion: it’s not like the Marlins are one piece away from contending. In their position, I’d be operating completely differently than they are. They seem to be trying to tweak the strengths of their roster, swapping pitching for hitting and power for contact. But let’s be honest: they’re not a tweak away from the playoffs. They won 69 games in 2022 and didn’t get particularly unlucky to do so. Dan Szymborski called them a .500 club in his ZiPS writeup, but I’m less optimistic, and that’s still a long way short of the playoffs.

In that position, I think it makes sense to be trying to accumulate good players however you can, even if it means creating positional logjams or acquiring prospects that don’t fit your optimal contention timeline. Marlins ownership chooses to spend only sparingly on the team; given that constraint and their current mix of players, I don’t think they’re an Arraez away from being great. Tossing in some interesting prospects to get a player who suits your preferred style of play is the exact opposite of how I’d be running things.

I’m not a major league GM; I’ve never worked for a major league team. I haven’t even talked to any team sources about this deal, because I wanted to get my own thoughts down first. I’m pretty sure that those evaluators would agree with me on this one, though. Remove Chourio from the trade, and I’d still like it for the Twins, though it’d be closer. That’s the sign of a bad trade, to me: when I can remove a meaningful part of the return and still think a deal is balanced, something must be off about the full deal. With no mitigating circumstances to excuse it — there’s no huge boost to a playoff push, no last piece a great team needs to go from pretender to contender, nothing like that — this just feels like a case of the Marlins deciding they were going to go out and acquire batting average, and the Twins making them pay through the nose for the player in the majors who most exemplifies it.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

91 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago

Wow. What an awful trade for the Marlins.

Baseball Analyzed
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Pablo has a career 3.94 ERA he’s a mid rotation starter who had a 3.0 WAR in 2022. Arraez has 1 more year of control and had a 4.4 WAR. You also forgot that Trevor pitched like an ace after his back healed and was never going to be dropped from the rotation.

Noah Schalit
3 years ago

Wouldn’t call it an awful trade by any means. 3:1 trade looks like a steal for the twins, but let’s give this one time. Both teams got what they needed.

Last edited 3 years ago by Noah Schalit
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Schalit

It’s not obviously terrible at first glance, like Dansby Swanson and Ender Inciarte for Shelby Miller. But this looks like an obvious win for the Twins and puzzling for the Marlins.

I think a better way of putting it is “it is possible the Marlins got what they needed.” Sometimes, a trade that looks really lopsided turns out to be quite fair (or lopsided in the opposite direction). That could happen here; it’s not that obvious the Marlins got fleeced.

baubo
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This is a very hindsight 20/20 take on the trade because Shelby Miller got injured and never recovered in Arizona. Now I don’t know enough about Miller at time of the trade to know if this was an obvious risk, but given that he passed the Diamonbacks physicals I feel it’s most likely just bad luck.

So assuming Miller never got injured. He had a 3.7 fwar 4.2 bwar in Atlanta. Let’s suppose that was fluky and peg him more as 2.5~3 war player. 3 years of Miller would’ve gotten Arizona around 8 war. While Swanson, who at the time wasn’t doing great in the minors, only put up about 8 war over 5+ seasons until 2022, when he broke out in a big way this past season.

In the timeline in which Miller didn’t immediately get injured, I think this trade plays out fine for Arizona.

Last edited 3 years ago by baubo
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

IIRC this was actually one of the most panned trades of all time at the moment it was made. Swanson was seen as a Jeter-ish star in the making, which also didn’t really come to pass (although or if it did it happened very late).

baubo
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It was because Swanson was the #1 pick (taken right before Alex Bregman no less) and had the #1 pick glow. But he wasn’t playing like a top pick at the time and in hindsight the Diamondbacks correctly identified that he wasn’t as elite a prospect as people thought.

The Diamonbacks mistake was using him to trade for Shelby Miller, not the fact that they traded him

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

In some ways you’re talking to the right person here because I’ve been a Swanson skeptic for a very long time. I absolutely thought that Swanson was overrated, and I believe it was describing what I thought his future trajectory would be that I first came up with the “Erick Aybar zone” to describe what his path to success would probably look like if he did it. I believe I formed this opinion after his cup of coffee in 2016. I also have a very specific memory of being very much outnumbered on that one, and that the consensus was that Swanson was the next star shortstop.

All said, this is getting pretty complicated–using 20/20 hindsight on Swanson’s side but not on Miller’s side? And this is relevant because you need 20/20 hindsight to justify the D-Backs’ decision to trade him; there was no evidence of this until we saw how he performed against major league pitching for the first time.

So the idea that he was overmatched at the time of the trade is kind of ridiculous if we are talking about performance. At the time of the trade, he had just wrapped up running a .394 OBP in short-season ball while earning rave reviews for his defense, so I’m not sure what more he could have done at that point.

Jeff Sullivan started his recap here of the trade by writing “Just yesterday, we thought the Wade Miley trade might’ve been lopsided…But now we’re on another level.” Craig Edwards wrote a piece here that literally was titled “Attempting to Rationalize the Shelby Miller Trade.” Dan Farnsworth wrote “Swanson was drafted first overall in June, and hasn’t really done anything since to lessen his value as a high-potential shortstop.”

So, if we just look at how the trade seemed at the time, it seemed extremely lopsided to basically everyone. I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest otherwise. Bringing 20/20 hindsight into this wasn’t my intention, and selectively bringing it in doesn’t make much sense to me at all.

baubo
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If we aren’t using hindsight then I don’t see the comparison. There is no question about major league production on either side here. Both Pablo Lopez and Luis Arrez are above average major league starters. And by all objective measures, Luis Arraez had the better season last year. So lopez and stuff for Arraez has none of the “premium prospect for average arm omg are they retarded!?” vibe that thr Swanson deal had

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

Reading this, I think we may actually agree on the important stuff here so I’m just gonna decide not to sweat the fact that we’re speaking past each other.

jimmy gMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Along with Swanson, less than a year from being the #1 pick, the Braves got three years of league average offense plus superior CF defense out of Inciarte before he broke down. Even worse, the Backs were left with no one to run down Miller’s fly balls.

I always thought Swanson was too pretty for La Russa or maybe he made the mistake of seeming to enjoy himself during a game or otherwise failed to show sufficient hard-nosed dedication to suit Tony.

To the current trade I think Lopez is more likely than most SPs to miss a big chunk of any year.

Jolly Good Show
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

The Miller trade was a shockingly bad trade at the time. Other teams started targeting them as a result to see if they could get uneven deals too.

The problem was that they decided to value their prospects lower than the market value. The only thing I can write in favour of that trade was that over 20 teams were chasing Miller, so the price was always going to be stupidly high, but should never have been as ridiculously high as the Diamondbacks paid.

The fact that Miller bombed after the trade was bad luck, but there have been lots of stories about management shenanigans in the dressing room at the time, and perhaps they ruined him as a result. I think that Gibson was fired within a year.

connjc
3 years ago
Reply to  baubo

Except they didn’t trade Miller for Swanson straight up. They also included Inciarte who was possibly just as valuable a player as miller was at that time AND they threw in one of the top prospects in baseball.

Baseball Analyzed
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

What are you talking about? Pablo is a career 3.94 ERA, had a 3.75 ERA in 2022 and is a few agent in 2 years. It was an even trade where both teams got what they needed. What exactly is puzzling about trading an expendable mid rotation starter for a batting title winner with more control?

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Schalit

Well, the Marlins just traded away future production for present production.

They just moved up from 4th in the division to….4th.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Yes. I’m not nearly the “window maximalist” that a lot of FG writers and commenters tend to be. I believe there are only so many years and sitting around and waiting for the perfect opportunity usually ends badly. The Nats shelving of Strasburg being perhaps the worst example. But even I still think there needs to be some path and some purpose. This move gives up some of the Marlins future, when who knows if the Mets, Braves, AND Phillies will all still be strong, for no realistic shot at even looking like an okay team into the second half.

It’s also very off brand for them. The Marlins don’t execute it nearly as well as the Rays do, but they do tend to never be on the side of major deals where you’re getting the older and more expensive return.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I don’t like the trade either but really they have to try to compete as long that rotation is great.

Losing salas isn’t great but sandy can’t get any better than he is now so either you try to compete now or you trade sandy and anyone with less than 5 years of control.

Also the marlins got a replacement for salas in Amaya which was a good move too.

Really the marlins are in a tough spot, they are probably the 4th best team in the division but they have sandy now so they either have to try now or trade sandy and do a full teardown bc you can’t waste prime years of sandy and even risk him getting injured and do nothing.

So really the marlins only can do two things, either do another complete teardown or somehow try to compete now.

Dmjn53
3 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

That’s fine, but if you’re going to go for it then go for it by adding a player that changes your trajectory. Luis Arraez is a nice player but is like the 5th or 6th best player on a contending team

Last edited 3 years ago by Dmjn53
Baseball Analyzed
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Games are played for a reason.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago

I’m willing to put money on this if you are.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Arraez was fantastic last season, and the Marlins needed a very good bat, and he is a very good bat. But there are so, so many ways this could go wrong.
Arraez is an oft-injured, positionless, powerless guy coming off a career year, both in terms of rate and volume.
He beat his xwOBA by a moderate amount so there’s some obvious regression coming even if he literally does the same thing this year.
To accommodate him they’re going to move their best infield defender to a position that guy has never played before. Chisholm might be able to do it. But also, it seemed to make sense for Dee Strange-Gordon and it didn’t work.
They’re going to put this positionless guy right up the middle in a reduced-shift world. Next to him at shortstop will be a third baseman (or a shortstop that everyone thought would have to move).
The funny thing is, Pablo Lopez could tear his ACL tomorrow and the Twins would be worse off. It’s not like this is risk-free for the Twins either. But the pieces on the Marlins do not fit together at all on the position player side. At least they’re better at hitting now?

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
OkraMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree that the Twins got the better of the trade but I think you are a little too harsh on Arraez. He’s still young, not really injury prone, and could legitimately become an even better hitter.

First, he’s only 25 and already has accumulated 7 WAR and a 120 wRC+ in MLB. He has averaged 133 games the last two years. No Cal Ripken but consider that only 44 hitters in all of MLB exceeded 150 games last year. His exit velocity has improved each year he’s been in the majors. Between improved EVs and a launch angle that is still pretty average and could gain more loft, it’s not hard to imagine him hitting for more power going forward. Lastly, sure he’s a below average defender but I think people forget that you don’t need to be peak Juan Gonzalez to be a DH. If he can be a serviceable 2B with par defense then great, but if not, putting him at DH is fine. Last year DHs had a 107 wRC+ and Arraez is projected at ~125 wRC+. And him and Jazz are the only good hitters on the team so he’s not blocking anybody if he does DH.

Twins won the trade but Arraez is still good!

BryzMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  Okra

Arraez has bad knees, which has been an issue for several years. Not enough to put him on the IL, necessarily, but enough for the Twins to mention it as a worry multiple times.

Another Old GuyMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Bryz

There is an additional here in the issue did not rear up last season, but Lopez has had chronic shoulder issues. He also does not come risk-free.

fjtorres
3 years ago

No pitcher does.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Okra

I don’t think this is really “bad” in terms of value for the Marlins as much as the roster was already an ill-fitting mess and it is somehow now is even worse. I don’t have an optimistic assessment of Arraez’s defense here—he was below average by OAA before the new shift rules and a lot of these second basemen are not viable there now, and he’ll be flanked by Joey Wendle. If he DHs then Soler has to play the field and squeeze out all of their other corner outfielders (of which there are many) and if he plays second then Chisholm has to learn a new position and stay healthy while playing it (which has been an issue for converted second basemen in the past, for reasons I don’t entirely understand). And it’s a 75 win team; extending years of team control in this scenario is good but it’s only one year, he’s not an obvious extension candidate because of his knees, and they gave up their third best prospect or something like that in the process.

This isn’t the Titanic or anything but it is like rearranging the deck chairs on the cruise ship and expecting the boat to go faster. The team is stuck, Lopez was their most logical trade piece for getting them unstuck and I don’t think this does it.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The value of OAA, very specifically, is that it removes positioning form the equation.

Baseball Analyzed
3 years ago
Reply to  Okra

Minnesota didn’t win the trade. A batting champ is worth more than a career 3.94 ERA starter.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The .316 that Arraez hit in 2022 is exactly .002 ticks above his career average and lower than two of the four years he has played in the major leagues so it is certainly not a ‘Career” year. He has been one of the few players who has actually come extremely close to his predicted performance from his prospect days. The Marlins should be quite secure in the expectation that he will continue to produce an OPS+ quite a bit above league average.

Dick Monfort
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

They should move Chisholm to first base.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  Dick Monfort

They announced CF.

proiste
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Look at the poster’s name and take a moment to reminisce about Ian Desmond

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  proiste

Gotcha.

cnordhielm
3 years ago

I don’t dispute even one bit of the case you make for ‘Twins win.’ However, I’d take the opposite position based on something you (and most everybody else) omits from trade analysis. The risk of injury factor favors the Marlins in a big way. I’m not referring to the specific players who I’ll assume are all healthy and not injury prone, but rather the positions played and the inherent risk that a generic coin (using your analogy) will be lost to injury for part of the control period. Starting pitchers get hurt more than any other position by far and second baseman seem to be about average. Arraez will likely play some first base with an even lower risk of injury, and he will also DH some. He doesn’t run, take HBP or even swing very hard. If I throw out a 10:1 likelihood of injury imbalance and I’m off 50% because I didn’t do any real research, that’s still a 5:1 risk factor benefit to the Marlins. Any reason not to factor in some estimate of relative down time?

OkraMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  cnordhielm

This is a fair point but I don’t think it matters because you have to have pitchers on your team. To play this point to the extreme, it’s not like you can trade all your pitchers for hitters and think you took advantage of some injury arbitrage in the trade market.

cnordhielm
3 years ago
Reply to  Okra

Agreed. There is no way this consideration is valid at the macro level or really in any but the most unusual circumstances. But the Marlins do seem to have that perfect storm of ‘extra’ pitching and major offensive shortcomings. I am only wondering aloud why positional injury risk is not even a part of the discussion. I felt like the Toronto deal for Varsho was a similar instance of a team tired of ‘wasting’ extra talent at a position where depth could help another team.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Okra

This point is something that I think is really under appreciated. Because you absolutely have to have pitchers and there’s no way around it, and because they get hurt so often, there’s a much bigger scarcity for pitchers than hitters than it appears at first glance.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  cnordhielm

I think you’re missing the forest for the trees. If pitchers are injured more often, they are then relatively more valuable. Hitters and pitchers aren’t perfect substitutes on a baseball team.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago

I think Arraez gets a bad rap for his defense somewhat undeservedly. The numbers hate his 2019 debut at second, but have thought he’s average since. I watch a lot of Twins, and I think he’s average.

What would his WAR have been last year with credit for an average 2B?

I also think it’s cool that before last year, he had played one game at first base, in rookie ball in 2014. He only ended up there because Sano, Kirilloff and Larnach were some combination of hurt and terrible. If you’re Luis Arraez, it’s incredibly easy.

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago

Sorry, Pablo Lopez is a “borderline all-star” now? I’m not on board with that assessment. He’s not yet cracked 3 WAR in a year. Above-average, sure. But if he’s clearly not better than 2023 Sonny Gray…

Arraez, if you agree he’s adequate at 2B, is a much better player than Lopez is– plus more control and less injury risk. This fluctuating wRC+ is much more about the overall offensive environment fluctuating than him. Which brings me to a second point: if the league continues its ball-in-play/ball-deadening efforts, Arraez’s contact-hitter 130 wRC+ might actually be here to stay.

Anyways, I think the gap in value between Lopez and Arraez is a lot bigger than stated here. I don’t trust that the Twins’ training staff is going to keep Lopez any healthier, either.

Shalesh
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

Excellent comment! Ben thinks more deeply about baseball than I do, but I wonder why he can’t drop qualitative assessments and simply write:

“Luis Arraez is a 3.5-win bat. We can say that both by his actual results and by projection systems. And since the age range of 26-28 normally doesn’t experience decline, his projection is expected to be durable.

The Twins traded 3 years of Arraez for 2 years of a 2.5 win pitcher in Pablo Lopez. To get one 3.5-win year + 1 additional win in each of the first two years, the Marlins had to give up an FV50 and an FV40+.

While some may argue that Arraez ‘s premium should be 2 FV45’s instead — I wouldn’t–, the bigger issue is that a team who won 69 games last year should not be trading prospects. Instead, the Marlins should…”

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Yeah, I don’t like them trading away Salas either. But I don’t really feel like the Twins “won” this trade, as you lay it out, it’s pretty even on value, it just makes more sense bc of where guys around the squad are. If the Marlins had more offense already, I’d feel better, bc they do have a really impressive young group of pitchers still even with Lopez being shipped north.

Last edited 3 years ago by MRDXol
Shalesh
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

Yes, it’s even on value. Arraez projects for 10.5 wins and Lopez only 5 wins for their years of control. I equate the two prospects to what the Mets gave up for 1.5 years of 3.5 win Stroman a few years ago.

Both teams are doing a “Moneyball” trade: Twins collecting prospects and the Marlins collecting high-BA guys who they must view as being cheap in the arbitration process. If you can get a 3.5 win player at the salary of a 2.5 win player like Seth Brown, who hits HR’s, that’s a win!

The more direct route for the Marlins would be to trade Alcantara and Chisholm after he rebuilds value and start over. Ng may not be authorized to do this, so she is trying to collect players she can get a haul for when they do rebuild. Or if they can come close, she can convince ownership to buy a superstar. I don’t think they will, so a rebuild is more likely.

Last edited 3 years ago by Shalesh
kingharbaughMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

How is Arráez a 3.5 win player? He’s never been worth that and isn’t projected to be worth that. He’s probably a 2-3.5 win player with solid concentration around 3 wins. There is a lot more risk in a player like him because if the league starts hitting for more power he’s merely average. Playing him at second without the shift is a risk too. It’s a weird trade.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

the bigger issue is that a team who won 69 games last year should not be trading prospects. 

Is no one else bored
of this kind of lazy “analysis?” It’s boring and lazy. Also whoever wrote this couldn’t care less about anyone involved, specifics and details are secondary to such a boring, lazy way to look at a sport

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

I would tend to agree that Lopez is not that good, and Arraez’s value value increased because of changes in play around him rather than anything he did (that and he played more). But I’m less convinced this is going to continue to be in his favor. I suspect the reduced shift isn’t going to benefit him much compared to other hitters, for example.

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I don’t think the reduced shift will matter much. It’s just the league-wide reduced homers -> reduced overall offense for everyone but dudes with really serious raw pop.

dangledangleMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

I agree it’s a head scratcher based on the competitive strength (or lack of) for the Marlins particularly with the division they play in. You can argue over the value of the respective players but process wise the Marlins should have been prioritizing prospects or less proven players with more years of control. Will they be competitive? Not this year. If they were on the edge of being competitive and a moderately more productive offense would get them to the dance this trade would make sense.

WerthlessMember since 2020
3 years ago

Sonny Gray
Chris Paddack
Joe Ryan
Bailey Over
Josh Winder
Simeon Woods-Richardson
Kenta Maeda
Tyler Mahle

Great depth, nearly entirely acquired via trade.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

For some reason Falvey actually had to address the trade thing. Some schill decided to ask the tough question of why, I assume it’s not efficient enough for our job creating lords above

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago

Really starting to question if Ng is the answer in Miami. This is a head scratcher.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  raregokus

I think it’s worth noting that this mess long predates Ng and that this is not an optimal scenario for most executives. The Marlins were a long time run by a very close knit and traditional scouting operation that was literally married into Loria’s family. They were pretty good at finding and developing hitters but the overall product was subject to the whims of Loria, which torched the relationship they had with the fan base (and thus a good chunk of the revenue stream).

Jeter brought in Denbo and Ng and they were originally supposed to be part of a collaborative team. They fixed the pitching development before Ng showed up but seemed to have no clue about hitters. But Denbo was an abusive boss and Jeter is gone for whatever reason (and may not have been good in the first place) and we have no idea who is actually part of the decision making process here. It’s probably either Ng all by herself without the larger analytics structure most modern teams have or it’s Sherman calling the shots and she’s just trying to implement it in the least bad way possible.

There’s just no way any single executive would thrive in this situation without getting a chance to rebuild the baseball operations department.

And if I might add, this trade is weird for a number of reasons but it’s not that bad in terms of overall value devoid of context. It’s just that the context is a 75 win team with an ace and a talented if unpredictable second baseman and payroll limitations and a lot of iffy corner outfielders that they are committed to for various reasons and major defensive questions at shortstop and center field already. I don’t think Ng is the answer but this is not her fault either and I struggle to think of who would fix it, especially since it’s not clear how much Sherman is involved.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah I’ll admit I don’t exactly have my finger on the pulse of the Marlins front office, but Ng is at least the public face. Whoever is making the decisions, the entire larger strategy seems flawed: trading young pitching depth to try to patch together a league-average offense out of cost-controlled known quantities.

joelbarlow
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

its still early but literally everything good on the roster predates her being hired and she’s had a terrible success rate with moves since coming on

proiste
3 years ago
Reply to  joelbarlow

Shaking Jesus Luzardo out of the A’s for half a season of Starling Marte was an awesome move. But those Garcia and Soler signings both were also questionable at the time and look atrocious now, in addition to the weird move here

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It felt like Jeter was itching to shift into a play-for-now mode right before he resigned, and I’m not sure the Ng’s mandate was to “win now, but do it on the cheap”

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If you really want to get into, the mess really dates back to MLB deciding to put a Major League team in Florida in the first place.

dangledangleMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Or more than one in FL. Lol. Look at TBR they somehow put together excellent teams and no one shows up unless the Yankees are playing. In concept a team should work in FL.

That said revenue sharing is nothing to sneeze at and most of the low payroll teams can afford more than they claim they can.

raysfan7777Member since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  dangledangle

Death, taxes and Rays attendance jabs on random articles

NATS FanMember since 2018
3 years ago

I’m unsure of the Jazz defensive hate. In every advanced way to measure defense Chisom is an above average second baseman. Arrez probably isn’t as good since he was the guy moved to first in Minnesota. But Jazz is going to be more productive in CF than the other choices. So… Miami did really need a premium bat though!

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Jazz is going to CF.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

From MLB:

https://www.mlb.com/news/jazz-chisholm-jr-moving-to-center-field-for-marlins

general manager Kim Ng announced that Marlins All-Star second baseman Jazz Chisholm Jr. would be moving from the infield to play center field.

“Jazz is a very unique athlete, very dynamic,” Ng said. “He’s got great range, great speed. He’s got a lot of the things that you look for when you’re thinking about center field. We’ve seen how he handles popups, and how he ranges to the ones that are really tough to get to.”

Trevor May Care Attitude
3 years ago

I know what we often try to do on this site is to accurately evaluate and assign value and/or risk to players, transactions, teams, etc.–and I really enjoy that quite a bit–but I would like to make one point that is still salient. The immediate reactions of many Twins fans that I saw on Twitter were ones of shock, disappointment, and even anger. Why? Because Luis Arraez is really fun to watch. I mean **really** super-fun! He’s just been a guy on another team in my squad’s division, and I grew quite fond of him. I don’t know how to quantify that, but it seems obviously true to me, nonetheless. So Marlins fans have that going for them, even if they do end up losing this trade.

tomerafan
3 years ago

I’m going to post a contrarian take. Yes, I think the Twins did better in this deal. But I also like it from the Marlins side.

The Marlins have a surplus of pitching and they decided to move an arm if they could get controllable value in return. Lopez is the guy who makes the most sense to move. I like him a lot – he’s a good pitcher and a smart pitcher – but his shoulder woes seem to pop up once or twice a year. He seems to have the most value to trade (outside of Alcantara, who isn’t going anywhere) and also a high amount of downside risk.

The Marlins reportedly shopped Lopez around, including checking in on the Mets during the Correa saga and asking if Brett Baty was available. I am going to assume that Arraez was the peak value offered for Lopez and the prospects were needed for the Twins to seal the deal.

So why make the trade? The Marlins would rather have Arraez than Lopez in 2024 (yes, 2024). The Mets and Phillies both have serious roster construction considerations beyond 2023. The Marlins have a chance to be the sneaky-good NL sleeper team of 2024 and they just picked up an on base spark plug for surplus pitching in a good starter who is oft-injured.

I still like the twins side of the deal better, but I totally get why the Marlins did it.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

This was not “rob Peter to pay paul” but selling high on a player they think has peaked.
The msrlins have been trying to move Lopez since last june. So it’s not like they value him all that highly.

With Arraez a second, Segura at SS, and Wendel at 3B the infield is set and they fixed CF. They still have tons of young pitching, a young Ace in Alcantara, and enough stars to build around.

No they’re not contenders. Not in the NL East. But they have something fans might *pay* to watch. Young fun players.

Both teams got what they wanted.
On paper.
Now lets see them play and wait to see who actually does better.

Last edited 3 years ago by fjtorres
grandbranyanMember since 2017
3 years ago

33 year old Joey Wendle with 647 career innings at SS?

33 year old Segura with 179 career innings at 3B?

Arraez, Jazz, Joey and Jean gives them essentially four 2B in their regular lineup.

Maybe they can find a fifth for LF before the season starts?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

This is part of the “I can’t believe this roster construction” thing I was talking about earlier. Some of these guys can play other positions–Wendle and Segura should be able to play 3B, even if they’re not plus there. But it is weird that they are going to play the single worst defender of the four at 2B and shift everyone else to positions that they will probably play worse.

(Jon Berti is another one, but he has a clear role as a utility guy)

The other part of my disbelief is the unbelievable number of corner outfielders, almost none of whom are good enough to start on a contending team. They’ve invested a considerable amount (in various ways) in Avisail Garcia, Jorge Soler (now a DH unless the Marlins get sick of Arraez’s D at 2B), Jesus Sanchez, and JJ Bleday. How can a team put so much of a focus on finding corner outfielders and get so little?

(And that’s before we get to Bryan De La Cruz, Peyton Burdick, and Jerar Encarnacion, the first two of which may be better than any of their other options in the corners.)

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

They thought they had traded for a franchise CF.
Nope.
So now they’re doing Plan C. (Or it is D?)
Chisolm as CF. (see above.)

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

Wendel is best at 3b and Segura is okay at short.
Do remember this is the Marlins and where they’re starting.
The question is whether or not this makes them better and helps sell tickets in ’23.
’24-25, they’ll worry about later.

Baby steps.

Last edited 3 years ago by fjtorres
radivel
3 years ago

If this is the price for Pablo Lopez, I wonder what the price is for Alcantara. Asking for a friend, and that friend is every MLB GM.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  radivel

Alcantara?
A bit less than Trout, more than Bieber.
He’s under team friendly contract ($11M) until ’28, Roughly 33 years by then.

He’s not going anywhere.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  radivel

You mean the guy who just unanimously won a Cy Young award, is projected for 4.6 wins next season, is 27, and is under team control for the next five years for only something like $70M?

One way to think about it is that we’re talking about something like $120M in surplus value here. That probably represents the low end.

The other way to think about it is that he was 10th in the trade value list midseason before he proved he wasn’t a fluke, and so he’s probably closer to Soto (who was at #6) and that would be not too far off from what he would command. That’s something like one FV60, three FV50s, and an FV45 (about $140M). That probably represents the high end.

The list of teams that would even think about trading for Alcantara is probably only one name long: The Cardinals (with Jordan Walker as headliner). Maybe the Dodgers if the Marlins are especially high on Diego Cartaya. No one else with a prospect that good is in a position where emptying out the farm makes any sense.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

And the Cardinals will never make that trade because it will only highlight how dumb Mozeliak was for trading him away in the first place. That Ozuna trade has got to be among the top 5 worst this century.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  radivel

Are these two perceived as similar talents?

roobMember since 2025
3 years ago

Did I read this right? The Marlins will be playing Jean Segura at 3B, Joey Wendle at SS, Luis Arraez at 2B and Jazz Chisholm in CF?

I’m wondering who will be the next GM of the Marlins.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  roob

They just fired the manager so Ng is going to take the fall for this. And frankly, if this was all on her and not ownership-driven she probably should be.

I bet whoever they bring in someone who used to have a lot of authority in the front office and wants to get back into it again and doesn’t have any other options. I am pretty sure David Stearns and James Click are not going to be interested.

Maybe they’ll bring Michael Hill back. Maybe Bobby Evans? Neal Huntington? Josh Byrnes?

What about John Coppolella? Or Jeff Luhnow? That feels dangerous; I bet Luhnow or Coppolella are the sorts of guys who would be hired as #2 guys so someone can supervise them.

OddBall Herrera
3 years ago

Yeah I really liked this for the Twins. Arraez straight up for Lopez would have been defendable, but also throwing in two high ceiling prospects? Good deal

wokegraphs
3 years ago

I’m guessing this one took the Marlins out of the Bryan Reynolds Rumor Circuit

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

Unless perhaps the Bucs love Chisholm as a centerpiece for a deal involving Reynolds?

wokegraphs
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

I doubt they do. He’s got what, four years left, and almost all the Pirates position player prospects are up the middle. They want SPs.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

That’s why he’s not already in NYY.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

They should but it’s not efficient *enough* (and the Marlins would correctly never do it)

Dominikk85Member since 2020
3 years ago

I’m surprised there wasn’t more demand for Lopez so the marlins had to add a borderline top 100 prospect on top of Lopez to get a young controllable hitter.

Sure there have been some injury issues but Lopez is 26 and has pitched 180 innings last year.

But apparently Lopez wasn’t valued all that highly by the market, if there was a better offer they would have taken it.

Kim ng seems to try to emulate the guardians with contact plus pitching, we will see how that works.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

“Kim ng seems to try to emulate the guardians with contact plus pitching, we will see how that works.”

How many players on the Marlins hit for average?

Dominikk85Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Well for starters they added segura and arraez who are both low K guys. They also added several low K rate minor league guys like Jake Mangum.

This still could go wrong if they finish last in Homers and have a slap hitting offense with no punch but they clearly have tried to add guys with lower k rate and better plate discipline after the previous regime got a lot of toolsy raw guys with bad plate discipline (Monte Harrison..)

schwejk
3 years ago

I think the Marlins lost the trade. Not so much for who they received or for the prospects they gave up. But the traded away the wrong guy and tried to fill one hole by opening another one.
Dan mentioned it in his Zips projections: Behind Alcantara and Lopez there is a lot of potential in the Marlins rotation, but even more risk and volatility.
With Lopez gone they basicly shifted pitching WAR to batting WAR hoping that the pitching WAR they traded awax could be compensated by in-house solutions. Well, there are more Max Meyers and Sixto Sanchez than Sandy Alcantaras. So I think it would have been more competitive, to trade pitching prospects for established bats. They are a pitching development factory, they seem to develop a top pitching prospect every other year, but most of these prospects don’t pan out. So why keep them, if you are desperate for hitters?

The Marlins are designed for a rebuild. They did not sign any big bats in FA, they could not even sign a reclamation project like Bellinger and signing several proven bats would have been the only way to make them competitive. Instead they are wasting Alcantaras premium years just like the Angels wasted Trout’s glory days. The way they operate they will probably miss the right time to trade Alcantara.

John W.
3 years ago

excellent

dangledangleMember since 2024
3 years ago

Thinking about this more. Anyone else find it odd how much they are emphasizing “contact” hitting in their acquisitions? It’s weird..

I do feel bad for Ng. I think they pitched the job as a couple of years of development then we will open the checkbook and swing for the fences basically a Cubs style rebuild. Now it’s time to swing and they are forcing her to bunt.

MTFMember since 2020
3 years ago

The loss of Arraez hurts, but I don’t think they’ll lose three wins worth of offensive production, even if he has a 3 WAR season.

Offhand, that sounds like a criticism of WAR that needs some expansion.

Re the trade itself: Does Miami have a masher to hit behind Arraez? With a high OBP guy like him hitting ahead of a power bat you can envision improving team run production. On the Twins side it is dismaying to trade their best hitter, even a guy who was being relegated to first base/DH, because they haven’t got a pitching pipeline going. Unless one of those prospects plays out I could see both teams disappointed in this trade.

__AL
3 years ago
Reply to  MTF

He’s just saying the replacements for Arraez should be worth >0 WAR. So they may be losing a 3 WAR player, but they’re not losing 3 WAR from the lineup.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Not a particular fan of either player, but I’d submit Arraez has the more unique* and in demand skillset btw he and Lopez. High contact, high AVG, high OBP LHH who doesn’t hit a ton of GBs to do it

*OTOH, 180 inning SPs aren’t exactly running rampant. Still, the risk of being inefficient to get there when several cheaper arms with options is straight up terrifying and in defiance of our gods/overlords themselves