Thor, Mets Throw Caution to Wind, Suffer Immediate Consequences
When Noah Syndergaard showed up to spring training having indulged in “Bowls of Doom” to gain 17 pounds with a view towards throwing even harder — this, after a season in which his fastball averaged 98 mph — alarm bells began clanging around the country. Among those waving red flags was the present author.
Here’s what I wrote on Feb. 13, 2017:
As exciting as all this [added strength] sounds, perhaps someone should pump the breaks. For a pitcher who threw harder than any other starter, who threw a variant of a fastball on 60% of his offerings, more velocity might not be such a great development. While we don’t have a full understanding of why so many pitchers are breaking down, perhaps the body is being pushed beyond its physical limits with the strength and velocity increases in the game. No one, among starter pitchers, is pushing limits like Syndergaard.
After pushing the limits in 2016, Syndergaard was attempting to push even harder against them this year. Perhaps he pushed too hard, flew too close to the sun, etc. Pitchers’ ligaments and soft tissue aren’t unlike wax wings; velocity, not unlike the sun. Record pitch speeds have wrought a record numbers of injuries. That Syndergaard is on the DL is, sadly, one of the least surprising developments early this season.
Worst Final Jeopardy ever. https://t.co/hLDik6IqT3
— Zachary Levine (@zacharylevine) May 1, 2017
Sports-injury expert Will Carroll told FanGraphs on Monday that Syndergaard’s offseason work was likely unhelpful.
“It’s very likely a kinetic-chain issue. It reminds me of Stephen Strasburg a couple seasons ago where it worked its way down — shoulder, trap, lat, lower back,” Carroll said. “The question for Syndergaard is whether he exacerbated these mechanical issues with the addition of more force from his legs and back. If he didn’t increase his efficiency, it [his offseason work] was counterproductive.”
The Mets are going to be without their ace for some time, and they really can’t afford to be without him long after a 10-14 April that dropped their FanGraphs’ playoff odds to 31.4%. Carroll put a six- to eight-week timetable on Syndergaard’s return to the mound.
Maybe Syndergaard was due to land on the DL no matter what in 2017. The list of young high-velocity throwers to have suffered injury is, of course, a long one in recent years. The best young talents in the game — such as Strasburg and, of course, the late Jose Fernandez — were unable to avoid surgery, likely in part due to the stresses their stuff placed on their elbows. Strasburg has reached 200 innings once in a season, even as the Nationals have been accused of exercising too much caution with him. While Gerrit Cole hasn’t endured surgery, he has landed on the DL five times in the last three seasons (and once due to a lat).
The Mets and Syndergaard will unlikely be charged with using too much caution. And that’s what makes this injury unfortunate: there was seemingly little care taken with arguably the game’s top young arm.
Syndergaard himself refused to be thrust into an MRI machine following a start that caused him to experience biceps discomfort. While Syndergaard perhaps chose poorly, it was his right not to go into an MRI machine.
“I can’t tie him down and throw him in the tube, either,” said Mets GM Sandy Alderson to NJ.com.
But the Mets’ decision-makers — older, wiser adults — should be familiar with the sense of invulnerability young people can feel. The Mets didn’t have to put him back on the mound Sunday if they had any concerns. And they had concerns. Syndergaard returned to the mound Sunday and left with a partially torn right lat, a significant muscle in the kinetic chain in the act of pitching.
While the lat isn’t the tender biceps about which Syndergaard previously complained, a weakness in one area of the body can lead to injury in another if stress is redistributed. And it’s not just that the Mets put Syndergaard back on the mound Sunday, it’s that they left him on the mound to struggle through a high-stress 31-pitch first inning — and inning during which he allowed five runs — and to return for seven pitches in the second before he was removed.
Why is one of the game’s most talented arms, about whom the team is already concerned, allowed to toss a high-stress, 31-pitch inning? It’s not clear.
For Syndergaard, the silver lining is this: perhaps this can be an important lesson.
As John Smoltz noted in a recent piece by Ken Rosenthal for FOX Sports, too many young pitchers are trying to max out, trying throw with 100% effort all of the time. Pitchers, of course, like Syndergaard.
“(In the past), each pitcher was given the opportunity to learn what kind of pitcher they were going to be,” Smoltz said, “Now they’re all robots.”
“I call it the red-line factor. When you keep running your engine above the red line, you’re going to blow it out. If you race your car hard for too long a period, it’s going to overheat. We’re getting dangerously close to every pitcher red-lining when he doesn’t really have to. They’re not preparing to learn how to pitch like it’s a six-gear car. They’re always in sixth gear. Never in fourth or fifth.”
This is not a new idea, that pitchers should learn to pitch at different gears. It’s at least 105 years old. Carroll noted that, in Christy Mathewson’s book Pitching in a Pinch — published in 1912 — Mathewson writes that pitchers must learn to navigate stretches of the lineup at less than 100%, to conserve energy and reduce stress.
Instead, the showcase era of baseball has produced pitchers too concerned with radar readings, and we’re guilty of often being fascinated with average fastball readings at FanGraphs. If a pitcher’s fastball velocity is down, we will red-flag the pitcher.
Syndergaard, like so many young arms, has never learned how to pitch at different gears. It’s perhaps why he’s on the DL today and the Mets are in a pinch. It’s said that wisdom can only be gained through experience — or, in this case, through a 105-year-old book. The good news is Thor has not been lost for the season and he doesn’t require surgery. And perhaps this short-term loss can result in a long-term gain: a pitcher who returns wiser and better positioned for long-term success.
The real mistake, the real folly, will be if Syndergaard (and the Mets) learn nothing from this experience.
A Cleveland native, FanGraphs writer Travis Sawchik is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Big Data Baseball. He also contributes to The Athletic Cleveland, and has written for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, among other outlets. Follow him on Twitter @Travis_Sawchik.
The reason to put on the weight is to make you throw smarter, not harder
There’s a much bigger point here to discuss.
Open two browser windows, both at Baseball-Reference, one for the Mets Franchise History and the other for the Phillies. Notice how since the Mets came into existence the Phillies and Mets never compete for first place for more than one season. Always, with no exceptions over fifty years, when one of these franchises is on the way up the other is always on the way down. Their competition for a season – which is also rare – is by chance.
The Phillies are on the way up. So Thor and the other injuries are just something that will be used as excuses like the phony Bernie Madoff thing for which no evidence has ever been publicly produced. The truth of the matter is that Fred Wilpon has been running the most profitable franchise in MLB, and the Phillies are right on Wilpon’s financial heels.
“What’s past is prologue” – William Shakespeare
Fifty years of uninterrupted past tell us what is to come for the Mets.
What does any of that have to do with the post you replied to? I award you 0 points.
Jimmiefoxx
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/free_aec-allan-eric-carlson.15733/
blblblbl wth wtf internet wtf even
There’s no reason to talk is much higher.
Open two brovser window, even in baseball, the document, one of the tasks of Mets history, and the second for Philadelphia. Keep in mind that, since the Mets are from Philadelphia and the Mets never compete for first place on more than one season. However, with and without exception, more than fifty years ago, when there was a transaction on their way back to each other is still on the way down. Their competition for the season-unusual-and by chance.
Mohammad are on the move. Tor and other injuries is just something to be used like Bernie Madoff To note that no evidence ever publicly. The truth is that each leader of the Original Vilpon the largest profits in the big leagues and to Philadelphia after finance Vilpon.
“Proljlost start” William Shakespeare
Fifty years of uninterrupted history and tell us what to give the Mets.
This would be even funnier if it weren’t more coherent than the original.
With and without exception, that is the case for “Jimmie”‘s posts.
http://www.theclinic.cl/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/aliens-meme-1024×768.jpg
I saw the first sentence of JFXX’s comment, closed my browser, and recited the rest from memory without seeing it.
This is the Mets we’re talking about. They will not learn anything from this. Syndegaard might, but the team won’t. This article could have been written any time in the last 15 years, swapping out Syndergaard for some other poorly managed injury, and the team still doesn’t learn. It’s why players from Beltran to Matz get their own medical opinions. Unless there is a true change in accountability at the very very top of the organization, nothing is going to change.
It is a shame that we see so many organizations ruin talent because they have no clue.
IMO active roster sizes should be expanded to promote a bigger rotation and to give guys with durability issues ample rest. What is a game here or there to preserve the health of some of the game’s most talented and exciting players?
It would also give more guys a chance to shine. I have believed for a while that there is more talent in baseball than there are starting positions. Talent fades because they lack clear opportunities to play. As we know many orgs play with their prospects and depth players like a yo-yo. Up and down and up and down without being given a proper look at what they could do in the show.
Apologies for the rant.
You are acting like you know more about what is right here than MLB teams and trainers do when they have far more information and experience.
What evidence is there even that more rest = better health? We are resting pitchers and limiting pitch counts more than ever before and injuries are also higher than ever before.
I’m not saying there is definitely a link there, just that there is obviously a lot that presumably no one knows yet about keeping pitchers healthy.
On a case by case basis, the Mets should have more information than we do. They have all the scan and doctor opinions they could ask for. Do they always follow the advice given or do they search for a way to cut down time for their star players to get them back onto the field?
There is a reason, players and organizations get multiple opinions on injuries and most of them do not revolve around the long-term health of the player. They almost always revolve around the timetable the player will be out for (searching for a quicker solution to the injury at hand or to avoid surgery).
Look at what happened with Homer Bailey and the Reds. In 2015, in his second start, we saw a dramatic drop in command and velocity which got worse as the game went on. They let him throw 72 pitches before taking him out. If we know the signs of an arm injury shouldn’t they?
I don’t think people can say that professional organizations don’t try to toe the line between health and a win? Of course, it is up to the player to speak up but even then have you never heard of an organization putting pressure on a player to go out there with questionable health?
You can even take a look at Marcus Semien who pushed through a fractured wrist. They did multiple tests throughout his injury and didn’t find out until they did a CT scan. My argument with that is if he had discomfort why chance it? Especially with the A’s case because what are they playing for this year?
You could even argue that should be even more the case for someone like Syndergaard. Why jeopardize the long term health of your superstar for a game or two?
My orthopedic surgeon told me if the thing is swollen, it is that way for a reason. Your body is screaming at you to stop.
Like you’ve said there is a lot about the health of pitchers, let alone the human body, that we still don’t know today. From the 2015 study from the Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit (http://www.jshoulderelbow.org/article/S1058-2746(16)00023-9/abstract) we know that velocity causes stress on a pitcher’s arm more than anything else.
We also know that improper mechanics can aid into causing additional stress on certain parts of the arm depending on the deficient mechanical issue.
There is also a variable about how a person’s physiology comes into play which is hard to gauge until the body is stressed to its limits. Unfortunately for some, genetics aren’t on their side and their bodies can’t handle the stresses and MLB season can put onto it.
Physiologically speaking rest cures all, except torn ligaments and bones that require external measures to secure them into place. There is a strong relationship with rest and health. Different people’s bodies react differently to the stresses put on them but in general, more rest is better. Our muscles take 7-14 days (most conservative approach) to FULLY recover after a workout. With weight lifting the general rule of thumb is 2-4 days before you can stress the muscles you just worked out. Any additional stress in between the recommended rest time, increases the risk of injury and can essentially start to break the muscles down. As with everything, there is a rate of diminishing returns.
I can even add that while I was a competitive pitcher, resting myself for a full week with little “pitching stress” helped my arm strength. I even saw a significant velocity boost for up to 5 mph if I was given a full month away from pitching.
Obviously, this can’t be done in the season but the point being that cumulative stress on the arm from pitching can adversely affect a pitcher’s performance. What is the difference between 28-30 and 32+ starts from your ace if it means they can stay healthy longer? What good does an ace do if they are injured?
I like how the article right below this one is about the “ominous” velocity trend of another Mets pitcher.
Deleted
Guessing that’s in reference to: “… we’re guilty of often being fascinated with average fastball readings at FanGraphs. If a pitcher’s fastball velocity is down, we will red-flag the pitcher.”
The Mets do this with all their players and then place all blame on the player when they inevitably get hurt. Without any accountability by the doctors, training staff or management, this will most likely continue. I realize this isn’t necessarily a good indication of poor player management, but I have to assume the Mets are near the top of the 60-day DL placements every year.
I cringed when I read Alderson’s quote about how they couldn’t force him to take an MRI. No, you can’t, but you can tell him to take the MRI or you’ll put him on the DL. Maybe you could bribe him to get into the machine with a game of mini-golf afterwards (if it’s not banned by the collective bargaining agreement). Or you could sit him down and try to reason with him. There are a lot of players who want to play, and the teams find a way to get them to accept the tests anyway. It sure seemed like they enabled him here.
Technically they could force him into th MRI machine. They have the right to do that
No they can’t force him to. He can choose not to. It’s just the team can then refuse to pitch him. At some point Thor does have to decide to do the MRI. A team can just make it an easy decision to make.
They could say, fine, don’t do the MRI, but without the MRI we have to put you on the DL as a precautionary measure anyway.
Throwing in “fourth or fifth” gear nowadays is unhealthy due to the whiplash that results from quickly turning to watch the resultant pitches rocket off of and over outfield walls. Only way to do it is to manage the innings/pitches, understanding that “faster pitches + the same amount of but no more injuries than before” overall is a good outcome.
Granted, that’s a bit tough to implement when pitchers tell the manager what to do, rather than vice versa.
Sure didn’t seem to hurt Smoltz or Randy Johnson or Verlander. All have been known for taking a little off so they had mph in reserve when they got in trouble.
Please provide us with all your research proving babyong pitchers works. All known evidence says otherwise.
Nonsense. If that were true, then HR/9 would correlate to velocity for pitchers, and it also would correlate from year to year for individual pitchers, whereas there is almost no correlation between HR/9 in Year X and Year X+1 for pitchers.
Is the answer to throw less hard a lot of the time? Is that what Smoltz and others are saying?
Verlander, when he was very effective, was less effective at higher velo. Not an all bad idea to throw 95, like Kershaw.
Ding, ding, ding. You win!
Not all pitchers are good enough to do this but the best are. And Thor has velocity to spare so he should look into a 96-97 MPH fastball sometime.
I will say this was a lot easier to do back in the day when basically all shortstops were abominations at the plate.
perhaps this short-term loss can result in a long-term gain: a pitcher who returns wiser and better positioned for long-term success.
Lessons are usually wasted on those who have no interest in learning what they offer and instead prefer learning something else.
I’m curious if the player’s union would have got involved if they had sat him when he claimed he was healthy.
I thought this as well. There’d have to be evidence to prove he was 100% healthy. Considering his bicep soreness the team would have evidence for reasonable doubt while, without an MRI, there would be evidence he is 100%. I think Thor would lose.
I initially misread “Bowls of Doom” as “Bowels of Doom,” And I thought “man, Syndergaard really is scarily dedicated to throwing harder at any cost.”
“Bowels of Doom” is my offseason weight program. Easy to confuse the two of them.
Another good point worth making in this discussion is Chris Sale. A lanky fireballer who has been always considered one start away from TJ for the first 3-5 years of his career is the one guy who hasn’t once had a significant injury. My guess is that is has something to do with the fact he has repeatedly adjusted his arsenal in attempts to stay healthy and put as many innings in as possible, such as throwing his fastball at 90% velo, throwing less sliders, etc.
I think the White Sox know something we (the educated public) and other MLB teams don’t know about keeping pitchers healthy.
Is there work looking at how pitchers change gears depending on situation? It might be interesting to compute velocity as a function of leverage, quality of opposing batter, etc. On average, to what extent do pitchers modulate their velocity? Which pitchers modulate the most? The least? Not at all? Do they change their velocity for all pitch types or is it selective (e.g., drop fastball velocity, but maintain slider velocity)?
I Noah entire fan base that is sad right now.
I demand the person who downvoted this explain themselves.
That joke followed by sadtrombone!
Instant karma for frat bro arrogant pricks…and for stupid stupid organizational decisions
I can’t find the link so I’ll just repeat from memory one of my favorite online exchanges of all time:
Will Carroll: It’s so hard to explain to people what I do.
Anonymous Commenter: Perhaps “Pretend to be a doctor on the internet and awkwardly try to pick up women”?
Yes. This guy is a clown I wish Fangraphs would stop quoting him. Surely there are injury experts that aren’t weirdo misogynists.
“Carroll noted that, in Christy Mathewson‘s book Pitching in a Pinch — published in 1912 — Mathewson writes that pitchers must learn to navigate stretches of the lineup at less than 100%, to conserve energy and reduce stress.”
There could be something to this. Interesting how the DH affects this mindset as well. Law of unintended consequences and all that.
It’s really interesting. I think the home run is what did most harm to this strategy. Once a guy could knock somebody in even when no one was on base it made many more situations “stressful.”
Does no one know how gears or transmissions work?
You’re more likely to red-line your engine in a lower gear like 4th than in a high gear like 6th. You downshift to get more power. Upshifting always lowers RPM.
It’s a terrible analogy.
Since starting pitchers appear to be going down to injury far more frequently than relievers, and I am sure that’s even true if you do the analysis on a “per innings pitched” basis, I wonder if we are getting close to a time where teams may consider experimenting with a 6-man rotation, where a starter will only pitch 3 or 4 innings max at a time, and be paired with a second “starter” that does the same thing, then take 2 days off and pitch again.
I know there are several drawbacks to this proposal, but this would also pretty much eliminate the “third time thru the order” penalty. It seems to me this might be the most effective use of a pitching staff, but I’m sure others here will tear apart my proposition.
I was hoping my post would have gotten more discussion going, but maybe my post came too late and most people already read this article. One thing I wanted to add is if you do your pitching pairings with one lefty and one righty, you can really mess up the other team that way too.
I found this quote from Thor that explains everything: “Guys with a little bit of mass are more durable throughout the season and throughout their careers.”
Clearly he put on all that extra mass in the off-season because he wants to be the next Bartolo Colon.
I don’t think anyone informed would argue with you if you said that the Mets make terrible decisions about player health and that they have no idea about how to use a DL. It’s difficult to understand how the Mets managed to mismanage the DL with the Cespedes injury so badly.
Q. Who doesn’t know the DL rules?
A. The LOLMets