Top 45 Prospects: Baltimore Orioles
Below is an analysis of the prospects in the farm system of the Baltimore Orioles. Scouting reports were compiled with information provided by industry sources as well as my own observations. As there was no minor league season in 2020, there are some instances where no new information was gleaned about a player. Players whose write-ups have not been meaningfully altered begin by telling you so. Each blurb ends with an indication of where the player played in 2020, which in turn likely informed the changes to their report if there were any. As always, I’ve leaned more heavily on sources from outside of a given org than those within for reasons of objectivity. Because outside scouts were not allowed at the alternate sites, I’ve primarily focused on data from there, and the context of that data, in my opinion, reduces how meaningful it is. Lastly, in an effort to more clearly indicate relievers’ anticipated roles, you’ll see two reliever designations, both on my lists and on The Board: MIRP, or multi-inning relief pitcher, and SIRP, or single-inning relief pitcher.
For more information on the 20-80 scouting scale by which all of our prospect content is governed, you can click here. For further explanation of Future Value’s merits and drawbacks, read Future Value.
All of the numbered prospects here also appear on The Board, a resource the site offers featuring sortable scouting information for every organization. It can be found here.
| Rk | Name | Age | Highest Level | Position | ETA | FV |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Adley Rutschman | 23.1 | A | C | 2021 | 65 |
| 2 | Grayson Rodriguez | 21.3 | A | SP | 2023 | 55 |
| 3 | DL Hall | 22.5 | A+ | MIRP | 2022 | 50 |
| 4 | Ryan Mountcastle | 24.0 | MLB | LF | 2021 | 50 |
| 5 | Heston Kjerstad | 22.1 | R | RF | 2024 | 50 |
| 6 | Gunnar Henderson | 19.7 | R | 3B | 2024 | 45+ |
| 7 | Ryan McKenna | 24.1 | AA | CF | 2021 | 45 |
| 8 | Jordan Westburg | 22.0 | R | 2B | 2024 | 45 |
| 9 | Terrin Vavra | 23.8 | A | 2B | 2022 | 45 |
| 10 | Dean Kremer | 25.2 | MLB | SP | 2021 | 45 |
| 11 | Michael Baumann | 25.5 | AA | SP | 2021 | 45 |
| 12 | Kyle Stowers | 23.2 | A- | RF | 2023 | 45 |
| 13 | Coby Mayo | 19.2 | R | RF | 2025 | 40+ |
| 14 | Jahmai Jones | 23.6 | MLB | 2B | 2021 | 40+ |
| 15 | Anthony Servideo | 22.0 | R | SS | 2024 | 40+ |
| 16 | Adam Hall | 21.8 | A | SS | 2022 | 40+ |
| 17 | Tyler Nevin | 23.8 | AA | 1B | 2021 | 40 |
| 18 | Zac Lowther | 24.8 | AA | SP | 2021 | 40 |
| 19 | Yusniel Diaz | 24.4 | AA | RF | 2021 | 40 |
| 20 | Rylan Bannon | 24.9 | AAA | 3B | 2021 | 40 |
| 21 | Cadyn Grenier | 24.3 | A+ | SS | 2022 | 40 |
| 22 | Hudson Haskin | 22.2 | R | CF | 2024 | 40 |
| 23 | Carter Baumler | 19.1 | R | SP | 2025 | 40 |
| 24 | Darell Hernaiz | 19.6 | R | SS | 2024 | 40 |
| 25 | Isaac Mattson | 25.6 | AAA | SIRP | 2021 | 40 |
| 26 | Garrett Stallings | 23.6 | R | SP | 2022 | 40 |
| 27 | Ramón Urías | 26.8 | MLB | 2B | 2021 | 40 |
| 28 | Bruce Zimmermann | 26.1 | MLB | SP | 2021 | 40 |
| 29 | Drew Rom | 21.2 | A | SP | 2023 | 40 |
| 30 | Hunter Harvey | 26.2 | MLB | SIRP | 2021 | 40 |
| 31 | Kyle Bradish | 24.5 | A+ | SIRP | 2022 | 40 |
| 32 | Alexander Wells | 24.0 | AA | SP | 2021 | 40 |
| 33 | Mishael Deson | 18.7 | R | CF | 2025 | 35+ |
| 34 | Zach Watson | 23.7 | A | CF | 2022 | 35+ |
| 35 | Kevin Smith | 23.8 | AA | SIRP | 2021 | 35+ |
| 36 | Joseph Ortiz | 22.6 | A- | SS | 2023 | 35+ |
| 37 | Maverick Handley | 23.0 | A- | C | 2023 | 35+ |
| 38 | Blaine Knight | 24.7 | A+ | SIRP | 2022 | 35+ |
| 39 | Tyler Wells | 26.5 | AA | SIRP | 2021 | 35+ |
| 40 | Ashton Goudeau | 28.6 | MLB | SIRP | 2021 | 35+ |
| 41 | Andrew Daschbach | 23.4 | A- | RF | 2023 | 35+ |
| 42 | Brenan Hanifee | 22.8 | A+ | SP | 2022 | 35+ |
| 43 | Jake Zebron | 21.1 | R | SP | 2023 | 35+ |
| 44 | Ignacio Feliz | 21.4 | A- | SP | 2023 | 35+ |
| 45 | Felix Bautista | 25.7 | A | SIRP | 2022 | 35+ |
Other Prospects of Note
Grouped by type and listed in order of preference within each category.
Sleeper College Bats
Greg Cullen, 2B
Toby Welk, 3B
Johnny Rizer, CF
AJ Graffanino, SS
Both Graffanino and Cullen were acquired from Atlanta for Tommy Milone. Cullen was a good Day Three pick out of Niagra and could be a high-OBP, low-SLG infield reserve. Graffanino was a name high schooler (his dad is Tony) in Arizona but then underperformed in college (Washington) until his final year. He performed in the low minors early on, then missed all of 2019 due to injury. Welk was drafted in the 21st round out of Penn State Berks, a D-III satellite campus of Penn State. He’s the second-ever player drafted out of that conference. Welk is a big, athletic guy with average power and shocking feel to hit for someone who just got done seeing bad amateur pitching. His timing is great and his top hand gets over quickly, which enabled him to get around on New York Penn League fastballs. He probably fits at third base and would be one hell of a story if he turns into something. Rizer (out of TCU) is an above-average runner with some pop who needs to be more selective. He could be a lefty stick fourth outfielder.
Corner Power Bats
JC Encarnacion, 3B
Brett Cumberland, DH
Robert Neustrom, RF
James Rolle, 1B
Cristopher Cespedes, RF
Encarnacion is far too aggressive, but he has the best frame, athleticism, and defensive ability of this group, so he’s at the top of it. Cumberland might have trade value and utility if the universal DH is implemented. I expect him to be a .350 OBP, .410 SLG type of DH. Low-A assignments are fine for Big Ten hitters and Neustrom played well during his. He has 55 raw and a chance for a 50 bat. Rolle is one of a couple of Bahamian players in the system. He’s a stocky 6-foot, 240 pounds and has above-average pop. He’ll have to hit all the way up the ladder. Cespedes was a minor league Rule 5 pick from Cleveland. He had one of the highest average exit velos in all the minors in 2019, averaging 96 mph off the bat, albeit as a college-aged hitter in the AZL. He spent several years in rookie ball and those guys almost never pan out.
International Projection Bats
Luis Gonzalez, OF
Wilmer Feliciano, OF
Josue Cruz, OF
Stiven Acevedo, OF
Many of the international amateurs Baltimore has signed of late have been big-framed outfielders, many of whom hit left-handed. All except Acevedo here are lefty hitters. Gonzalez has the most polished feel to hit of this group. Feliciano was the most physically imposing prospect at a Scottsdale event a couple Januarys ago (I think? I don’t know when anything was anymore). Cruz is a little older than the others here at age 20.
International Signees From Last Year’s “Others”
Dax Stubbs, CF
Luis Ortiz, LHP
Stubbs hasn’t turned 18 yet. He’s got a good frame and can really rotate, so there’s power potential there. This Ortiz is not the Rich Garcesian righty who has some big league time but rather the semi-projectable lefty the team signed for $400,000 in July 2019. He has a vertical arm slot and some feel for a curve.
A Couple More Arms To Watch
Zach Peek, RHP
Mac Sceroler, RHP
Kyle Brnovich, RHP
Easton Lucas, LHP
Conner Loeprich, RHP
Ofelky Peralta, RHP
Dallas Litscher, RHP
Yeancarlos Lleras, RHP
Leonardo Rodriguez, RHP
Peek and Brnovich were part of the Dylan Bundy deal. They both have below-average arm strength with good underlying data traits. Peek was still just 90-91 in the Fall. Brnovich could be a breaking ball centric reliever. Sceroler is a Rule 5 pick who is up to 94; his fastball has upward angle and he’s deceptive. I thought he was the most surprising name taken in the Rule 5. Lucas was acquired from Miami, Loeprich from Pittsburgh, and like most of the pitchers Baltimore acquires, they have a backspinning fastballs. Loeprich’s has an awful lot of spin (nearly 2500 rpm on average) for how slow it is (89-92 in 2019). Peralta throws hard (94-97) but has zero feel to pitch. Litscher has a sneaky heater and good curveball spin rates, but he’s relatively old. Lleras is 19 and touches 95; he was a Day Two pick out of Puerto Rico in 2018. Rodriguez, 22, is into the mid-90s, too, but his delivery isn’t great.
System Overview
We don’t have the benefit of a recent 40-round draft to use to look for patterns from the newer Baltimore regime, but because the Orioles have leaned so hard into a rebuild, we do have lots of trades to consider. Like a lot of teams that have made a concerted rebuilding effort lately, the Orioles have taken a go-wide approach, often picking up several players at a time and taking fliers on an awful lot of pitching in smaller deals. Combine that approach with actual participation in Latin America and this system is getting deeper. I think cutting a deal with Kjerstad enabled Baltimore to be the only team that got five potential impact prospects in the 2020 Draft.
Teams are always clamoring for pitching depth and this was especially true last year due to the combination of the typical rate of injury, whatever extra injuries were caused by the weird stop-and-start nature of the season, and COVID. This may be amplified again as teams not only have to deal with last year’s complexities but have to do so entering a season where all of their pitchers will be asked to carry a much heavier workload. Pitchers who can work multiple innings and pitchers with option years left are going to be at a premium as clubs attempt to deal with the situation and the Orioles have many of those on the roster. Post-hype Dillon Tate and Jorge López are also around; Tate had a velo uptick last year and started working with two different fastballs. There are lots of interesting young arms to watch, many who’ll get an opportunity here that they might not have elsewhere. Perhaps that will enable a Keuchel-colored rainbow to shine at the end of this long rainy day for Orioles fans.
Eric Longenhagen is from Catasauqua, PA and currently lives in Tempe, AZ. He spent four years working for the Phillies Triple-A affiliate, two with Baseball Info Solutions and two contributing to prospect coverage at ESPN.com. Previous work can also be found at Sports On Earth, CrashburnAlley and Prospect Insider.
Is Keegan Akin no longer on the list?
I was thinking the same thing-I think he graduated due to shortened-season service time rules. Wondering-is he 40+ FV?
You can see his prospect report at the time of graduation, including tool grades and his FV, on his player page.
He still has his rookie eligibility, I’m almost certain – he should be included here
He graduated last year – you can see all the 2020 graduates on The Board (this view is filtered on Baltimore): https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/the-board/2020-graduates/summary?type=0&sort=-1,1&team=bal
Are you able to elaborate on this? I’m not seeing how Akin hit 45 days active. He was recalled 8/8, optioned 8/15, recalled 8/25, optioned 8/27, recalled 8/30, stayed until end of season on 9/28. I get 41 days out of that count. Are there days active I’m missing? Baseball Reference lists him still as a rookie and he’s listed on other sites Orioles rankings for 2021 – two I could find off-hand are Baseball America and The Athletic.
Yep, I posted the same thing, but comment was disappeared “for moderation” (assuming because I used multiple links to the info you’re citing here which got flagged).
I could be wrong (I often am) but both FG and BR says Akin has 0.108 service time. Does that not signify 108 days? In which case he would not be a rookie.
That’s the 2020 season equivalent of 108 days, not the actual number of days on the roster. I don’t believe that those added days count against rookie/prospect eligibility. If they did, then Ryan Mountcastle (0.105) and Dean Kremer (0.053) would also be ineligible for this list.
Makes sense. I thought maybe he accumulated time prior to 2020. I dont follow the O’s that much (I’m not a sadist 😉 )
So if you do the math (each day of service time counted for 2.8 days in 2020) he was on the roster for 38-39 days in 2020. Seems like he is definitely not graduated then.
Yep, that’s the same count you get manually counting up from official transaction logs for 2020
I was super critical of Baltimore’s 2020 draft approach, thinking they should’ve either picked top guy available and only underslotted in order to get Kelley and/or Wilcox
Now that the dust a settled a bit, their draft strategy makes more sense: they took Kjestad to get Mayo and Baumler, Westburg was a slot pick, and Servideo was great value in 3rd. I’m okay with all of that.
But that still leaves Huston Haskin 39th overall with the 2nd pick in the 2nd round. Detroit drafted Dingler with the pick before and Miami drafted Dax Fulton with the pick after. If Baltimore had landed one of these players (insert best player available) instead of Haskin, and their draft went something like: “Kjestad, Westburg, Fulton, Servideo, Mayo, Baumler” I think everyone would have been much more receptive to underslotting Kjestad. However, they took Huston Haskin. 39th overall.
Not saying it’s a bad pick, just interested to see if he can turn into an everyday guy. Was only on him as a good-framed sleeper projection guy before the draft but now he’s a high-priority follow
The widespread rumor at the time was that the plan after they took Kjerstad was to snag Bitsko with their comp pick, and then they had to adjust after the Rays snatched him.
If they’d taken Fulton 39 I guess they could have still signed him, but they would have gone over their allotment. Still would’ve been less than 5% over, so it would just be a small financial penalty, but the O’s sadly don’t seem interested in any avoidable costs these days. Big picture, I agree that Haskin is the pick that stands out there. Will be interesting to see his development.
The Bitsko thing was real, but they were dreaming if they thought they were going to slip him through the gauntlet of teams (TBR, STL, CLE, etc) drafting in the 20s, and that was even with the Yankees and Twins locked in on Wells and Sabato.
If you are drafting 2nd overall and trying to underslot with later picks, the “the player we wanted to take got drafted” excuse only works in Dungeons & Dragons leagues not MLB. Professionally, you have to have a Plan B. I am still just surprised that Plan B to Nick Bitsko was Haskin, not Fulton or whoever. Haskin got full slot at 1.91 M
I don’t think Plan B was Haskin; Plan B was Mayo and Baumler (or, in general, multiple overslot signs later, as opposed to a big one earlier). That to me is the most interesting part of their draft. Rather than go for another high overslot guy, like Kelley or Winn or Wilcox, they seem to have just gone back to their board for their earlier picks, and then took two shots at (lower) overslot guys later. That seems to fit the broader approach of this regime’s seeming preference for quantity over quality in trades too. It’ll be an interesting thing to track.
As for Bitsko specifically, I dunno, I think it’s hard to judge those things from the outside because there is a ton of communication that none of us know about. If they were working with no other information, I’d be more critical, but presumably they knew his number and knew very few teams could meet it, and they may well have had even more specific info about teams targeting him too. And of course he DID make it past CLE and STL; Rays may have been the last team that would have taken him.
Well, the end result was that they spent less money. Exactly who they were targeting at the slot pick is unknown–Bitsko or Soderstrom, maybe–but IIRC the ultimate result was that they didn’t spend their full pool. So either they got really cheap or they tried something that didn’t work.
I’m not really a huge fan of Kjerstad, since he isn’t particularly good at making contact and is never going to play a premium defensive position, and I don’t particularly like Westburg either. When you pick that high you can make suboptimal picks and they can still work out…after all, Kjerstad does hit for a lot of power and will probably be at least a platoon bat, and seems like he could be a Jay Bruce type if everything clicks (he was pretty good earlier in his career). It’s just not how anyone would have drawn it up (unless the goal was just to save money).
Just based on Eric’s reported numbers they spent $13.75MM against a pool value of $13.89MM according to an mlb.com article before the draft, which is close enough. I think the “Orioles not spending their full pool” narrative was mostly just speculation in the wake of them missing a Bitsko-esque name. You can argue about the allocation, but I don’t think you can really argue they cheaped out here.
That’s closer than I remembered. But considering that most teams go over by a little bit, it’s pretty notable whenever a team doesn’t.
I’m personally with you, think the Kjerstad thing is a bit odd and didn’t have him in my top 10 draft prospects. There is too much swing and miss at this stage, I like Mayo but they could have taken Martin or Lacy and still afforded him
The good news is that he has plus power, is left-handed, and performed really, really well against college pitching. Guys like that pretty much always wind up, at minimum, as a platoon bat. But I do not think this is a Kris Bryant sequel, a polished bat who pretty rapidly hits his way into the majors, compensates for all of his weaknesses, and puts up several ~140 wRC+ seasons. I could see Austin Martin doing that at second base, though.
What’s so bad about the Haskin pick? Drafting a 6’2″ CF prospect who hit really well in college seems like plenty good value. I like Fulton, pre-surgery thought he was the 2nd or 3rd best HS pitcher behind Kelley and maybe Abel, but a pre-injured HS pitcher that isn’t the best HS pitcher hardly sounds like superior Value compared to a good college hitter playing up the middle
Wouldn’t be stunned if he’s in the Keirmaier mold
@SenorGato, I was just trying to be more reasonable than the “I don’t like this draft outside of Servideo” guy I was when the draft was happening in real time, which in retrospect ironically led me to more narrow-mindedly scapegoating Haskin.
Like I said above, I liked Haskin as a sleeper, also due to his 6’2 frame. What i didn’t articulate well bc im lazy is that their front office is going to take their guys regardless of industry opinion. It has nothing to do with saving money, these are their guys. It reminded me of when Houston took Korey Lee 1st round. Nobody said diddly bc Astros were in trash can dynasty mode, while Baltimore is still rostering Chris Crush. If they were more successful franchise, maybe we give them more benefit of the doubt
If it were up to me, there wouldn’t have been any Monkey Business: I would’ve gone Emerson Hancock, Slade Cecconi, Kelley with first 3 picks (my dream draft included Hancock, Kelley, and Wilcox, but I had to come to terms).
I know you, like me, were big on Ed Howard and Kelley. I don’t think there was a chance they take Howard 2, but I was a real broken record on those Georgia arms-Hancock and Wilcox-being undervalued. I really think Hancock is going to blow up now that he’s in a good dev org like Seattle (I think Kirby blows up this year too), and see Wilcox as a major bullpen weapon at least.
I imagine the league used 2020 to kinda mess with the evolution of HS/amateurs and set new standards. The biggest prep risers were guys like Abel, Veen, and Bitsko who were very active on social media posting elite DisneyCast numbers. Not that they’re bad prospects, but yeah….Maybe if games were played a HS prospect had a shot at #2 overall, but under these conditions eh and the league’s pushing the NCAA
Agreed, should have included Hancock down there. I like that role for Wilcox too and maybe there’s like a harder throwing Joe Musgrove or something going on. I think my shortlist for 2020 is like Torkelson, Howard, Lacy, Hancock, Kelley, Walker, Bailey, and Crow-Armstrong in some order…maybe thrown in Tanner Witt…I like Daniel Cabrera too, think the Tigers drafted him, felt he was underrated if far from a top of the draft kind of player
What are your thoughts on Tony Locey and Ryan Webb from the Georgia program? Different years, I think they’re both future MLers and a little underrated themselves
I am having a pretty hard time getting excited about a lot of these prospects. I know that Kjerstad hits for a lot of power but when you look at his ETA of 2024 (the same as Gunnar Henderson, who is quite a bit younger) it’s awfully hard to get excited about him. Westburg is also underwhelming. Stowers has some serious swing-and-miss issues.
But since Rutschman grades out as a possible successor to Buster Posey as the catcher who does it all , and Gunnar Henderson has a shot to be a big star, and you figure they should get a second baseman out of one of those guys, and an outfielder out of the set in the minors here…it should add up to more than the sum of its parts. When you combine that with the interesting pitchers and outfielders / 1B / DHs they already have in the majors, you start to see the outlines of a competitive team. The depth on the position player side, combined with the top-end guys like Rutschman and (potentially) Henderson, seems like it will work.
I’m wondering if there are two typos on Kjerstad’s report. Given his college experience, I would think he would be up by 2023 with the possibility of a September call up in 2022 if he performs well. I’m also wondering if his game power is supposed to be a 60. It’s pretty rare that Eric gives someone the same FV for raw and game power. If his game power is truly a 60, I would think that would move his overall grade into the 55 FV tier.
I may be misremembering, but I think Eric has said before that the ETA for guys who aren’t right on the cusp is just when they are Rule 5 eligible. For Henderson and Kjerstad, that’s the same year, because Henderson was drafted a year before but out of high school.
Do the Orioles trade with anyone besides the Angels? Haha.
They convinced the Brave to give up live players for Tommy Milone. Also, they stole Vavra from the Rockies who wanted Givens for their playoff run(s).
Yes getting Vavra was a steal. Is there a team right now that is run more poorly than the Rox??
Giving up on Vavra then trading Arenado makes no sense. They seem directionless. Even the Bucs seem to have direction and are making competent moves with that direction in mind.
I seem to recall the O’s making a little trade with the Dodgers a couple of years ago. Three of the players that they got in that trade are listed above…
It is a pleasure to see Mountcastle finally getting at least a bit of respect for his ability to rake. I wonder sometimes, no actually I wonder a lot, if people know there is a position , at least in the AL for now, called the Designated Hitter. Even if Mountcastle plays the outfield like Wily Mo Pena he will add considerable value to the Orioles in the very important position of middle of the order bat. There is a place in an American League lineup for a Nelson Cruz or a Giancarlo Stanton. The team is not penalized for having a dedicated DH and I will never understand why the DH’s WAR is penalized for not playing defense as long there are 9 men on the field while he is in the video room. Are National League pitchers WAR devalued so precipitously when they combined to hit .123 in 2020?
I agree, I think the DH penalty is conceptually flawed, as is the notion of pitchers getting a lot of oWAR for garbage hitting. It makes absolutely no sense for DHs to get penalized for not playing defense, yet pitchers to get rewarded via oWAR for effectively not hitting at all. Zack Greinke has accumulated 6 hitting WAR in 600 PAs for putting up a 60 wRC+. That’s stupid, and there’s no level of defensive adjustment that makes that acceptable.
Greinke’s 6 WAR includes his excellent fielding -which I’d imagine provides the majority of that WAR. He’s also a really good hitter, relative to other pitchers, and he should get credited for that. Likewise, a pitcher who is even worse than the typical pitcher at hitting will be costing his teams runs. (I really don’t know how this component is calculated for pitchers – e.g. Kershaw has a career wRC+ of 5, but 1.9WAR – because even though he’s been worth -93.6 runs on offence, he’s been worth 85.8 runs on defence – Greinke also has a (much less) negative offensive runs of -28.3)
I’m aware of the relativity of pitcher offensive war, it’s just really stupid, and you didn’t address and of my point as to why pitchers get rewarded despite being bad at offense overall while DHs get dinged for being similarly useless on the opposite side of the ball, yet one DH is not relatively worse than another at defense since they don’t play defense. You can’t have it both ways, yet WAR as it’s set up does exactly that.
And to give a pitcher nearly 6 war in 600 PAs of offensive sample if you think it’s really defense alone would make him better than any defender per 600 ever. Not buying that either.
If you can’t understand that there is a difference between being a bad hitter (Greinke) and a terrible hitter (most pitchers), then I don’t know what to tell you.
And DHs are not being dinged in comparison to other DHs, only in comparison to players who field a position.
I actually think there should be a lower limit on how much any fielder is punished for terrible defense, set to the DH penally. Like it’s not Sheffield’s fault that teams kept running him out there. He shouldn’t be hurt more than any DH would be.
Newsflash: 60 wrc+ is terrible too. Alcides Escobar spent the last 4 years of his career doing that in well over 2000 PAs and had about 2 WAR to show for it while playing the most demanding position on the field. But somehow, 60wrc+ relative to pitchers should be treated differently than 60wrc+ relative to SS despite the fact that the actual in-game outcome is the same? No thank you. Why aren’t pitchers dinged compared to all other players that hit, like DHs are dinged compared to all other players that field. The logical inconsistencies are too obvious.
But Greinke also only batted 600 times – so he’s hurting his team less offensively by batting far fewer times. Escobar had far more bad PAs – so hurt his team more.
Both helped their team with their defensive skills – but that’s a bigger relative part of Greinke’s job than Escobar as Greinke has been in the AL a lot.
Sorry, phrased that badly. Didn’t mean to imply that a pitcher’s defence is more important than a shortstop’s!
Greinke has 598 PA (60 wRC+), and Escobar had 2504 PA in his last four years (for a 64wRC+). So , Escobar was the slightly better hitter, but both are negatives. Escobar is far more of a negative because he had over 4 times the plate appearances, so had far more chances to hurt his team.
Greinke has fielded for 2939 innings. Escobar fielded for 5336 innings (if I’ve added up correctly), mainly at shortstop, in 2015-2018. Escobar has under double the number of innings fielded.
Greinke fielded over double the number of innings per plate appearance than Escobar did.
Both have positive Def Runs in the time periods, but Greinke has only -28.3 Off Runs, compared to -97.8 for Escobar. So that seems why Greinke gets 5.7 oWAR for his career, compared to 1.8 oWAR for Escobar for 2015-2018.
As an aside, Greinke is 134th all time for Defensive Runs for a pitcher.
In 132nd place, is Johnny Cueto. Cueto though, has an oWAR of -2.5, because his hitting was so much worse than Greinke. There are lots of pitcher with a high number of Defensive Runs – but an overall negative oWAR because their hitting was so bad. That to me seems fair.
Greinke’s hitting WAR isn’t coming from his hitting per se. For example, Baseball Reference lists him as -33 runs over the course of his career as a hitter. The value is coming from the positional adjustment. Now here’s where things get strange. Normally positional adjustment is calculated by looking at how teams trade off offense and defense at various positions. But that obviously doesn’t work for pitchers since no team uses or benches a pitcher because of his ability or inability to hit. So they have to use a different method. BR has an explanation for how they do it about halfway down this page under Pitcher Positional Adjustment.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml
(BTW, at least for BR, pitcher defense is include in pitcher WAR)
I don’t follow the complaint. WAR represents wins above a replacement player. Replacement pitchers would likely be terrible at hitting compared to Greinke, so it makes sense he’s generated WAR from his offense. But literally all the best replacement hitters could fill in for DH because it requires no position, so the bar is higher. What’s the objection?
But the replacement is not an even worse hitting pitcher, it’s a pinch hitter. DLHughey and Left of Centerfield are correct in noting that the way FanGraphs calculates the batting WAR of pitchers is deeply misleading.
Hmmm…my post is entirely about how Baseball Reference does it. I imagine that Fangraphs does something similar, but I’m not sure. I’m also not taking sides here….just providing information on how it’s done. Also, where do you get that “it’s a pinch hitter”? Nothing I posted from the BR website indicates that.
HowBoutDemOs said that “replacement pitchers would likely be terrible at hitting compared to Greinke,”but the replacement isn’t or at least shouldn’t be position specific given that when a pitcher is replaced in the lineup it is for a pinch hitter.
I don’t think this is true? Maybe I’m missing it, but I don’t see the explanation anywhere on the site. But I’m fairly sure the replacement player is indeed a pitcher. In almost all instances, a pitcher who hits is hitting only because they’re going to continue to pitch in the game. Pinch hitters don’t have the ability to do that, so they shouldn’t be considered replacement players.
They absolutely can do that, as position players take the mound from time to time. And unlike with batting WAR for pitchers, we don’t give position players extra credit on their pitching WAR. The way BR and FG calculate batting WAR for pitchers means that teams would theoretically be better off using position players on the mound because the supposed benefit from batting WAR is larger than the negative pitching WAR that position players produce, which shows just how wrong that calculation is.
Not really, you can’t use a pinch hitter in every inning or you would have no pitching quickly because you can’t start your pen in the second inning every game.
This means those two plate appearances are a thing you need to endure and thus a pitcher which is slightly less terrible will have a positive impact as he replaces an even more terrible pitcher. You have to go by what is done in reality and not theory as the other team will put on a. 350 OPS guy instead of 600 ops greinke. This is an actual gain of 250 points which is quite a gain.
Now overall the effect is still small due to the small amount of PAs pitchers get especially when they only go 5-6 but it definitely is a positive effect that you gain even if it pales compared to the effect of pitching.
DL, I haven’t received much support for this side of the debate and yours is appreciated. It is frustrating to try to infer that logic might have a place in the debate over whether a DH should be penalized for being in the video room while 9 of his teammates are wearing their gloves. On the offense in a NL lineup there are 8 position players and a pitcher. On the offense in an AL lineup there are 8 position players and a DH. Logic would appear to place the pitcher in the NL and the DH in the AL in an exact mirror of the same situation. One is only expected to pitch, with going up to the plate only a required burden to his team, while the other one is only allowed to hit. Let us try to look at that realistically. One of the sides of the situation, the pitchers, who are forced to hit even though they are generally very bad offensive players, get a free pass and their WAR doesn’t suffer. On the other side is the DH who, even though he isn’t allowed on the field, has his WAR severely penalized for not doing something he isn’t allowed to do. That certainly seems to fit the definition of being illogical, even reaching the point of absurdity.
I don’t see the symmetry.
If a pitcher is bad at hitting, relative to the population of pitchers, their WAR suffers – because they are costing their teams runs. So they can effect the game.
A DH can’t with their glove.
How much WAR should a full time DH, who is an average base runner, and puts up a 100wRC+ get?
That seems to me a below average player, and that’s why they should be below 2 WAR.
It is very simple. Both of these groups of players, the pitchers and the designated hitters, are tasked with only one part of the game. where as all of the other players are tasked with both offensive and defensive responsibilities. One group of these players, the pitchers, are not penalized for being very poor in the important part of the game that they are not responsible for, hitting, while the other segment of the players that only have one responsibility, the designated hitters, are penalized for something they aren’t even allowed to do. What could be more illogical than that?
I think this debate will become a lot simpler with the universal DH!
If there was no DH, partial DH or universal DH, the total WAR for everyone would remain the same – there is still the same number of non-replacement level wins to compete for. In the NL, starting pitchers are tasked with hitting. They still have to go out there and hit occasionally. If a DH has to field, they get credit for the innings they fielded.
Pitchers, in 2019, were had a combined 0.4 oWAR. And that includes their defence. (The top of the leaderboard is full of NL pitchers – but so is the bottom. But they have more opportunity to gain or lose WAR). I think one group of players having a total of 0 oWAR, shows that they are being penalized for being poor. Replacement level is not very good.
DHs, on the other hand, in 2019, had a combined 12.7 oWAR. I don’t see the positional adjustment for DHs as a penalty – more a reflection with how WAR is calculated. Replacement level defence is bad defence, so if you give a DH 0 Def Runs, then that is boosting their WAR. The average DH should get less WAR than the average non-DH position player – as they contribute less to their team.
Pitchers sometimes hit + play defence = 0.4 oWAR
DHs hit + never play defence = 12.7 oWAR
What do you mean by replacement level defense? There is absolutely nothing that even hints that the player who plays the field has to be a replacement level player. In reality the player who replaces the DH is more likely a glove first defender who the team has the luxury of using because they have an Ortiz, Cruz, or Martinez, both Edgar and J.D. ably filling the DH position.
This is the WAR formula:
WAR = (Batting Runs + Base Running Runs + Fielding Runs + Positional Adjustment + League Adjustment +Replacement Runs) / (Runs Per Win)
Consider a player who is exactly average at fielding, hitting and base running. Each of Batting Runs, Base Running Runs and Fielding Runs would be 0 – but they would have a decent positive WAR because that’s an average player, and average players have ~2 WAR.
Now that player, the following season, is exactly the same, except he is a full time DH. His Batting Runs and Base Running Runs are still 0. His Fielding Runs is also 0 – because he never took the field. But he was less valuable to his team – because he did less – so his WAR in this year will be lower.
This is where the Positional Adjustment ‘penalty’ comes in – because he doesn’t accrue any value from fielding, the positional adjustment essentially counterbalances the Replacement Runs.
If you look at this table of 2019 DHs, you see their replacement runs is always a few runs higher than their negative positional adjustment:
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=dh&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=6&season=2019&month=44&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31
So essentially, a DH starts at replacement level, and gains WAR by being a productive hitter (or loses WAR by being a below average hitter and a bad baserunner). Personally, that makes logical sense – I can see why you might disagree.
The penalty for DH is not really for lack of defense but due to replacement value of DH, I. E it is easier to find an halfway decent bat at DH than it is at 2B for example.
Also the penalty for DH is not all that bad, it is about 5 runs compared to a 1B which means a bad first baseman can easily have more negative impact than a DH if he is more than minus 5 in the field.
So for the guys who don’t want a DH penalty: what kind of penalty would you accept? Should it be less than a penalty first basemen receives?
Now you have opened a Pandora’s box, I have an almost equal animosity for the first base penalty. No one was happier to see two first basemen receive their rightly reward and be named MVP of their respective leagues. In the shift era, the first baseman is probably the second most important defensive position. As the shift against right-handed hitters explodes exponentially the first baseman is delegated with covering the entire right side of the infield, yet if he plays well off the bag he has to make a long run to first base and is forced to catch some errant throws before having time to set up. Since the 5-6 hole no longer exists, the SS no longer has to have any more range than late career Derek Jeter, the second baseman can get by with a rag arm and the third baseman is a bat first position with clearly much less defensive responsibility than the first baseman, who has to come up with all the throws that the third baseman buries into the dirt while still facing the same hot shots down the line. Of course, first base is still the dumping ground for the Vlad Guerrero’s of the world, but the position’s importance has increased dramatically since the right-hand shift has proliferated and the penalty needs to be addressed.
So you are against any kind of positional adjustment? The shift has slightly changed stuff but still every non 1b infielder can easily play first but almost no first baseman can play another infield position decently.
Same is true for SS, any SS can play second or third but vice versa it is rare.
Positional adjustment is not about how hard defense is but about how many can play that position adequately. Since about 90% of all ballplayers in affiliated ball can play first but maybe 10% can play short the hitting talent pool for 1b is just larger and thus it is easier to replace hitting at 1b.
I think the game has changed so much in recent years that some of the present ideas about defensive importance no longer stand up. The shift has dramatically altered the SS position. Ozzie Smith would not be anywhere near as valuable today as he was, but that isn’t to say I wouldn’t still want Frankie Lindor playing SS for my team. However, all defense is of less importance now because the game has devolved into a game of catch between the pitcher and the catcher. There are several fewer chances for the defense and more of those are now fly balls. There are so many holes in what is presented as defensive metrics that I don’t really believe anything I read. My questions about defensive metrics, how they are measured and how they affect the valuation of a player is defined by the ridiculous discrepancy between TZR, DRS or OAA in their analysis and presentation of identical events. When the same event is seen so differently by these systems it has to create a serious amount of doubt in anybody with an IQ higher than Ted Williams number. Today’s most important story, the signing of Jackie Bradley, Jr, exemplifies this point as clearly as anything could. Even today, after 8 years of consistently sensational defense, supported by every person who has occupied a seat in the Red Sox press box, as David Laurilia writes in today’s article, along with every member of Red Sox Nation, there is a rather vehement debate about the quality of his defense. How can that be? It couldn’t be if there was anything substantive in the defensive metrics as they exist today. Eight years should be more than enough time to make a call, wouldn’t you agree? I have concluded that if such an important part of what passes for today’s defensive metrics can’t come up with an answer to that then I will cast a doubting eye on all of it.
Eric, you are my top follow for scouting and prospect coverage, but I’m surprised to see a few things go unmentioned… 1) Carter Baumler hurting his elbow in instructs and needing TJ. 2) The 9 figure IFAs signed in January- SS Maikol Hernandez and C Samuel Basallo.
Came here for this – the Baumler TJS seems material lol
Is Adley Rutschman’s ETA still ’21 considering that Baltimore will be dealing with delayed minors and will likely want him to graduate from every stop to ensure completion and general service time manipulation? I know I read a piece that was skeptical he’d be up, it seemed quite sound logic that they would slow play to make sure he was 100% ready. Do you know different?
Obviously it is not start of 2021 but I Could see at some point in 2021.
I really hope Rutschman lives up to the hype and then some
And then some what?
First to cover the hype and then some to cover the salaries
I like the system and I think the new front office did a solid job but also let’s not forget they had two top 2 picks in a row so they should be much improved.
They are improved but it is not nearly enough, to compete in that juggernaut division they will need to build a monster farm with 7 or 8 top100 prospects similar to what the cubs, Padres, braves and Astros did prior to their recent success. So tanking/rebuilding needs to continue at least another year
It should be noted that Kjerstad’s numbers were considerably better against lesser opposition than they were against SEC pitching. For instance, in 2019 he hit .307/.382/.500 with 7 home runs (out of 17 total), 10 walks, and 38 strikeouts against SEC opponents. 2020 never made it to the SEC schedule, although he did homer off of Ty Madden of Texas and recorded two singles against 22nd overall pick Cade Cavalli of Oklahoma.
And while Eric may not have heard concerns about Kjerstad’s swing, many analysts have commented on the exaggerated load and leg kick. Those elements presumably contributed to his high strikeout totals and his overall struggles against breaking balls. To me he looks like a Kyle Schwarber with less power and plate discipline. If Elias was set on going under slot, I would have much preferred to gamble on Zac Veen. Taking Westburg at #30 was another head scratcher given that he has even bigger strikeout issues while he probably will not stick at shortstop.
I think he’ll stay a bit more mobile than Schwarber, which will help him in a few different areas. I keep thinking the best case scenario for him is someone like Jay Bruce. But that’s the best case scenario, and I would agree there are a lot of parallels to Schwarber or Brandon Moss or Eric Thames or other lefty guys who strike out a bunch and hit for power, but aren’t hitting Gallo-esque bombs (and have some platoon splits that sometimes need to get managed).
Why take the less likely MLer in the same mold tho, a likely corner with some 1B talk, when you can take the college hitter with flaws you know? Veen’s hardly a lock to avoid similar swing and miss issues at his size, is unlikely to stick in CF for the same reasons Kjerstad is a corner
Personally, they should have taken Lacy or the top HS SS to walk away with the highest ceiling player. Since they didn’t want to pay for that, walking away with a likely MLer, a non-DH, and a LHH with all fields power who won’t have to be platooned is about as good as it gets from what was available
Sucks for them neither Martin nor Gonzales were slam dunks at 2 overall. Martin because no clue what kind of defense he plays anywhere and Gonzales because maaaaaaaaybe really good 2B defense? Throw in neither having huge obvious power plus no season
Veen is much more athletic than Kjerstad and does not have the same swing issues. The reality is that the Orioles also grossly overpaid for Mayo and Baumler, neither of whom were considered to be top fifty type prospects by anyone, and that was before Baumler required Tommy John surgery.
I’m assuming most college players’ numbers are considerably better against lesser opposition than against SEC pitching. Was it any more pronounced for Kjerstad than others? If so, worth mentioning. If not, whatever.
“I think cutting a deal with Kjerstad enabled Baltimore to be the only team that got five potential impact prospects in the 2020 Draft.”
Just popped over to The Board out of curiosity and it appears the Brewers landed five 40 or higher FVs in 2020 draft. Pretty impressive respective to draft slot.
Totally random, but I’ve always thought fangraphs was too high on Grenier, and I’m still puzzled by it. He’s 24 and has never shown the ability to hit a lick. Even when he was old for his levels in 2019 he had huge strikeout numbers, and not with a lot of power to accompany it. The glove does not seem anywhere near elite enough to compensate. It’s a random bone to pick on a low ranked prospect, but I’d have a half dozen guys on this list ahead of him, including the three that follow pretty comfortably. It just seems like everything is riding on a significant swing change, and without it he’s a non-prospect.
Mostly I’m just pissed they took him one spot ahead of Xavier Edwards.