Trevor Bauer Traverses Ohio
The Cold A/C League needed a bit of recharging, with Marcus Stroman’s move to the Mets the only major trade so far this deadline. With only 18 hours to go, the Indians provided a big one, sending pitcher Trevor Bauer to the Cincinnati Reds in a three-way trade that included the San Diego Padres. I like to approach three-way trades as three individual trades to keep things from getting confusing, like a Westerosi family tree.
Cincinnati Reds acquire P Trevor Bauer in return for OF Yasiel Puig, OF Taylor Trammell, and P Scott Moss
Cincinnati made aggressive, short-term moves to improve the team last winter, acquiring Puig, Sonny Gray, Tanner Roark, and Alex Wood in an attempt to jump-start their transition from rebuilder to contender, much the Braves and Phillies did in 2018. While not everything went according to plan — Wood has been injured and Puig got off to a slow start — it’s hard to say the moves were a failure. If the playoffs were determined by Pythagorean record, the Reds would be in the thick of the Wild Card mêlée, in third place and two games behind the Washington Nationals (as of the moment this trade hit the wires).
Alas, the playoffs are not determined by Pythagorean record.
Thanks to an awkward six-win shortfall compared to the record we would expect from their positive run differential, the Reds find themselves at the back of the Wild Card race. It’s far from hopeless, but our Playoff Odds only give the Reds just a 5% chance of seeing October, with ZiPS also at 5%. The struggles this season haven’t changed Cincinnati’s outlook, however, and getting Bauer (who is signed for next season) in a trade for Puig (who is not) makes the Reds a better team in 2020 than they would likely be otherwise. Unlike many swaps of this kind, the Reds even make themselves a little better in the short-term. Given the team’s short- and mid-term goals, helping 2020 without sacrificing their slim shot in 2019 is a perfect move.
In return for threading this particular needle, the Reds will have to part with their best prospect, outfielder Taylor Trammell. There’s no doubt it hurts to lose Trammell, but if you’re keeping up with prospect lists using THE BOARD, you’ll notice a scary red arrow next to Trammell’s name. Trammell is still young, turning 22 in a couple of months, but his Double-A season, which features a .236/.350/.338 line (that slugging percentage is not a typo), is a serious black mark on his prospect résumé. My colleague Eric Longenhagen will go into greater detail on Trammell’s profile later, but ZiPS’s has edged down his previous prime outlook of .260/.340/.420 lines with 15 homers a year into the .720-.730 OPS range. That’s not enough if he doesn’t stick in center field, and given that the Reds have nearly exclusively played him in left field, it seems that center wouldn’t have been an option in Cincinnati. Trammell’s only real contribution in 2019 has been walks and prospects who get a huge chunk of their value from walks have a poor history.
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2020 | .228 | .322 | .337 | 505 | 69 | 115 | 17 | 4 | 10 | 45 | 65 | 133 | 23 | 81 | 7 | 1.0 |
| 2021 | .234 | .336 | .364 | 495 | 72 | 116 | 18 | 5 | 12 | 50 | 70 | 128 | 23 | 92 | 6 | 1.8 |
| 2022 | .234 | .341 | .372 | 495 | 75 | 116 | 19 | 5 | 13 | 52 | 75 | 131 | 23 | 95 | 6 | 2.1 |
| 2023 | .233 | .345 | .370 | 494 | 76 | 115 | 19 | 5 | 13 | 52 | 79 | 135 | 23 | 96 | 6 | 2.2 |
| 2024 | .231 | .348 | .376 | 489 | 77 | 113 | 19 | 5 | 14 | 52 | 82 | 137 | 21 | 99 | 5 | 2.3 |
| 2025 | .229 | .350 | .376 | 484 | 77 | 111 | 19 | 5 | 14 | 52 | 84 | 138 | 19 | 99 | 5 | 2.3 |
| 2026 | .226 | .347 | .375 | 429 | 68 | 97 | 17 | 4 | 13 | 45 | 75 | 122 | 15 | 98 | 4 | 2.0 |
Trevor Bauer, of course, has a tendency to get into internet-related shenanigans, but he also gets a lot of batters into out-related ones. On the field, Bauer’s biggest problem is that he’s simply not the pitcher he was in 2018; instead, he’s merely a very good starter who’s not at the Cy Young level. While Bauer has declined from 2018 in other ways, going from nine homers allowed in all of 2018 to 22 in four months of 2019 is the largest difference in his level of play. Expecting a home run rate that low to be sustained is a problem for the predictor, not the player, as home run totals have a strong tendency to regress toward the mean, more than strikeout or walk rates. In fact, looking at zHR, the HR estimates ZiPS makes to predict pitcher home runs using advanced data, Bauer’s over-performance in preventing home runs was the seventh-largest discrepancy in the 17 years for which the data exists that allows me to run this algorithm. Without any knowledge of actual home runs allowed, ZiPS feels the advanced data suggests that Bauer should have allowed 21 homers in 2018, 12 more than his actual nine. This number was also consistent with the 25, 20, and 23 home runs Bauer had allowed in previous years.
Yasiel Puig was a big name, but while he’s hit for power — who hasn’t in 2019? — he’s also backtracked in his overall game. Puig is swinging at a lot more pitches than he did with the Dodgers, who were generally able to rein in his worst offensive habits. He’s swinging at pitches of all types in 2019, and making contact with the lowest percentage of them since his rookie season. His defensive numbers did not bounce towards 2017’s career highs, and I’m not sure that some combination of Phillip Ervin and Derek Dietrich is that much of a downgrade. The Reds weren’t going to get a top prospect for Puig, so they did the next-best thing and used him as a pot sweetener. Of course, that doesn’t mean Puig isn’t an innovator — instead of hugs in his last game with the Reds, he finished off his brief stint in the land of awful chili with a benches-clearing brawl. #Hugwatch #Fightwatch.
Adding Bauer gives the Reds a little flexibility to do more this trade deadline. With Alex Wood returning and Tanner Roark a free agent, Cincinnati now has an increased ability to trade Roark for either a prospect or 2020 help without consequences to their 2019 hopes.
Cleveland Indians acquire OF Yasiel Puig, OF Franmil Reyes, P Logan Allen, 3B Victor Nova, and P Scott Moss for P Trevor Bauer
A few weeks ago, if you had told me that Cleveland would trade Trevor Bauer at the deadline while Cookie Carrasco and Corey Kluber were out, I would have assumed that the Indians had fallen out of the pennant race (and dramatically), or that they were doing something highly irrational. But there’s a certain logic to this. The team is only a couple of games behind the Twins now and I suspect that the fact that this trade is being made now is less a reflection on Bauer’s recent temper tantrum than Cleveland’s confidence in Corey Kluber and Danny Salazar’s return.
The rest of the rotation looks to be on solid footing. Shane Bieber is somehow pitching even better than ZiPS’s very optimistic preseason projections and after two rocky return starts, Mike Clevinger has thrown five consecutive quality starts with a 1.74 ERA/2.42 FIP. I’m far from sold on Adam Plutko being a good option or Zach Plesac continuing to outperform his FIP by two runs, but if you can get a Kluber-Clevinger-Bieber-Salazar front four healthy at the same time, there’s a good argument to make that Cleveland’s outfield is their biggest short-term obstacle, not a rotation missing Bauer.
Despite better performances in recent months from the outfield, the FanGraphs depth chart projections have all three outfield positions and designated hitter projected in the bottom-third of the league, usually in the bottom five. Puig isn’t great, but he ought to be a steady source of adequate offense, which is all the Indians are hoping for. Franmil Reyes can be something more. ZiPS loves his home run potential, and it’s not as if Reyes isn’t contributing right now, with a wRC+ of 116 for the Padres. That’s not star-level performance, but it’s an improvemet for the Indians. Given that Cleveland wouldn’t even extend a qualifying offer to Michael Brantley, the five years of Reyes are likely very important to them. Logan Allen gives Cleveland another cost-controlled pitching option if they want to revisit a Corey Kluber trade this winter. For more on Allen, check out Eric’s forthcoming piece on the prospects involved in this trade.
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2019 | .257 | .316 | .502 | 506 | 70 | 130 | 20 | 1 | 34 | 99 | 43 | 159 | 1 | 112 | -4 | 1.8 |
| 2020 | .260 | .324 | .525 | 493 | 71 | 128 | 21 | 1 | 36 | 101 | 46 | 160 | 1 | 119 | -4 | 2.2 |
| 2021 | .260 | .326 | .533 | 493 | 72 | 128 | 22 | 1 | 37 | 103 | 48 | 161 | 1 | 122 | -4 | 2.3 |
| 2022 | .257 | .325 | .532 | 491 | 72 | 126 | 22 | 1 | 37 | 103 | 49 | 164 | 1 | 121 | -5 | 2.3 |
| 2023 | .257 | .327 | .539 | 486 | 73 | 125 | 21 | 1 | 38 | 105 | 50 | 165 | 1 | 123 | -5 | 2.4 |
| 2024 | .255 | .327 | .544 | 474 | 72 | 121 | 21 | 1 | 38 | 102 | 50 | 161 | 1 | 125 | -5 | 2.4 |
San Diego Padres acquire OF Taylor Trammell for OF Franmil Reyes, P Logan Allen, and 3B Victor Nova
The Padres are nearing contention, but aren’t quite as close as the Cincinnati Reds, so it makes sense for them to have more interest in Trammell as they continue the talent sorting-out process. While the Reds have seemingly given up on Trammell in center, I suspect the Padres will be more willing to take a look given the team’s surplus of corner outfielders. If Trammell does develop into a Brett Gardner type, and his arm can be just good enough to allow him to fake center field, he would give the Padres a solid option there, which would be useful given that they can’t be completely sold on Manuel Margot and center field is a rare organizational weakness. Even if Trammell is fated to be in a corner, the Padres have the luxury of being able to wait and see how he develops.
Losing Reyes and Allen hurts, but Reyes was part of a corner outfield logjam and he’s probably the player most likely to end up needing to be at designated hitter a few years down the road, something unlikely — but not impossible, as the rules could change — in the National League. Allen remains an excellent prospect, but even without him, the Padres still have an amazing seven other pitchers who have 45 FV grades on THE BOARD. This trade allows the Padres to better distribute their prospect talent, trading from a surpluses to address a weakness.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
Whoever predicted the Mets acquiring Stroman and the Reds acquiring Bauer, step forth to claim your prize…
While stepping forward, please also tell us where the NASDAQ will close this year and how we can get peace in the Middle East.
In this trade:
-A team that is in contention traded an elite pitcher for some longer-term assets
-A team that isn’t in contention acquired a win-now asset
-A team that wants to contend next year traded guys who could help them next year for a prospect
If someone placed a bet on this trade happening it would have been a massive payday.
In fairness, Bauer is an asset for next year too, when the Reds look to field a competitive team
so he’s not entirely ‘win now’
That is not really accurate in regards to the Indians. They got two bats and they really need those bats. Their everyday lineup includes Jake Bauers, Tyler Naquin and probably Greg Allen and some guy under rookie requirements. Offense has been their problem and they tried to address it. The long-term assets are not what they acquired. That wasn’t a Logan Allen deal. Puig is the best player they got back despite the author’s take or the ZIP projections. You never know how things will develop, but that is what they got as of today. Reyes looks a lot like a DH to me. He is such a big guy that he likely won’t age gracefully.
It feels like Cleveland chose a “quantity over quality” return here as it’s pretty doubtful that any of the players they acquired ever turn into All-Star level contributors. San Diego made the upside play, which is not surprising given Preller’s history, and the Reds made a curious “win now or in 2020” move which feels overly optimistic given the strength of not only their own division but also all the other 80-90 win teams in the NL.
I don’t love this trade for any team, but I dislike it for Cincinnati.
I honestly think this roster is now an 84-85 win team in 2020. That gets them close enough that they can do things in the winter. I’m not crazy how they got here and I think they missed some trade opportunities along the way, but they’re here.
I just don’t see how that’s likely when they’re still probably only the 4th best team in the division on paper for 2020.
I think we’ll need to see what they do this winter to add for 2020. They’re clearly going all in. Right now, a rotation with Bauer, Castillo, and Gray is very good, their bullpen is very good, and they have a host of solid if unspectacular position players. They have a solid foundation. Now, if Votto comes back, Senzel continues to develop, and they add two or three pieces they could be scary.
That is a lot of IFs. Things can slide backward too.
I think that this team could be co-equal with the Cubs, Brewers, and Cards in 2020. It’s clearly the best rotation in the division, with some good bullpen pieces now, and Senzel and Suarez will (hopefully) anchor a decent lineup. The lineup beyond that looks less strong beyond that but it’s not bad. They can’t rely on getting career years out of scrap heap pickups Dietrich but it’s not a terrible lineup either.
That said, I also hate this deal for the Reds. Making win-now moves doesn’t make sense because they also have a shot to be good in 2021, and 2022, and 2023…
With Allen now gone, the Padres got close to zero for Kimbrel. Margot is not a first division player, he doesn’t even look like a regular, while Asuaje and Guerra are long since forgotten. Has there been a sighting of Anderson Espinoza’s right arm after it fell off for the second time? The Padres are sticking their neck out a long way by gambling that Trammell is a lot better than he is showing this year. I continue to be mystified by the way performance, both good, McNeil, Hoskins , and bad, Brinson, Broxton and many more, is almost completely ignored in favor of opinion.
I agree, but it seems odd to push so hard to get to 84-85 wins when there are so many other teams in the NL also right around that level. A team that is already in that pack and could’ve separated itself to division-favorite status (like Milwaukee, St. Louis or Chicago) would have gotten more marginal utility from adding Bauer.
5 years of a hitter who if you sort by batted ball is literally ranked #1 in the entire MLB (followed by Yelich, Cruz, Alonso,Springer, Bellinger) who is raw by all accounts. His xba is over .280, and he has something like the absolute worst batting line in the MLB with runners in scoring position, which is likely just variance. I feel like I end up beating the same drum over and over, but he has gotten incredibly unlucky and is actually improving. A babip for a guy who makes the best contact in the entire MLB of .265 is going to go up, even for how slow he is.
It’s been shown that hard hit rate doesn’t correlate very well with BABIP. I would guess his true talent level is somewhere right in the middle of the .345 he posted last season and his .265 mark in 2019.
Probably right. But he also cut his K rate this year and they are using rabbit balls. I think he is better than last year, just primarily getting less lucky. I honestly believe he is a true talent 130-40 wRC+ guy now, with upside. He also gets to hit in the AL Central now where most the actual good pitchers are on this team.
The K rate cut is only slight but more importantly hes lifting the ball more this year And hitting more flies AND LDs. A guy with his hard hit rate with a nearly 26% LD rate and a good popout % and a workable K% should have a better average, even if he is slow as molasses.
His xBA is .274 and I see him as possibly something around there going forward as long as he keeps a good LD rate and his innate ability to avoid popups
Ks improved gut still an 18% k-bb rate is well below average. He Hits the ball well but unless he further improves his plate discipline he won’t hit 270+ consistently.
Eric and kiley gave him a 45 grade future on his hit which means 250. Sure his batted ball data imply a higher average but a mid 20s line drive rate isn’t quite sustainable either. I think he probably is a 260 hitter or so
K/BB rate doesn’t matter as much for average as straight K rare which isn’t great but not terrible. Where does it say 45 FV means .250 and why is that inherently some ceiling then? He’s nearly at .250 now with metrics saying he could be better.
I think he’s probably closer to a mid .260s guy rather than .270 until he cuts down on his Ks by a few percent but idk why his LD rate isn’t sustainable.
LD rate is really random, nobody maintains a 25% LD rate from year to year
To me it is 1.3 years of Bauer, a couple months of Puig, a top prospect who looks like a high floor defense guy who can’t hit in AA, and 5 years of a DH guy. His real life value will likely never be incredibly high, but 5 years should be close to 10 WAR, right? And based on value given up, they are paying what, $30 million? Seems good. And I honestly think this is Franmils floor. Couple years from now this will be the Franimal trade
Who’s the high floor defense guy in AA?
As a Cleveland fan I’m happy for an MLB ready OF bat even if he’s mostly DH and love Franmil. My good friend who’s a Padres fan is super bummed to lose Franimal
Trammel. His floor is Mike Cameron-ish.
Power, speed, low average.
Ceiling is lead-off CF with power.
Mike Cameron put up 50 WAR – Trammel’s floor is no where near that. (Yes, I know you said Mike Cameron-ish – but that ish is doing a lot of work!)
I don’t agree with that assessment of Trammell’s floor. There are questions about his instincts in center, and it would take everything going right for him to have that level of defense. Between that and the strikeouts (which aren’t bad, but also aren’t good) his floor is something more like Ryan Langerhans.
I would agree that the upside is a Curtis Granderson-type player, although Granderson is pretty close to the best type of guy in that category.
Same skills, no?
Speed, power, defense…
Like Cameron or Granderson.
His ceiling will depend on his eye.
Not defense. Not the same as that skill compared to Cameron. Not at all.
And the power output of Granderson is the best case scenario of best case scenarios.
There is a non-zero chance we have Ryan Langerhans here.
Ryan Langerhans? Holy Crap. I’ll take “Obscure Mariners” for $400, Alex.
I agree with you. A “Mike Cameron floor” is a very high floor, unless you’re one of the sadly-too-many people who underrated Mike Cameron. A top-five defensive CF with a 110ish wRC+ is a floor most teams would dream on.
I was trying to think of a Quad-A guy who bounced around and never quite made it, and his high-walk, medium-high strikeout, medium-high power game never quite translated.
As a Padres fan, I would absolutely love it if I could pencil in Taylor Trammell for anything resembling Mike Cameron’s career. Heck, anything resembling Mike Cameron’s two seasons in San Diego.
I don’t think the chances of Reyes being a DH All star are doubtful. In fact, if the move had been made in the preseason he has a case to be taken over Pence. Allen may never be anything more than a middle of the rotation guy but he’s ready to help now as is Reyes.
I guess when you are trading a great pitcher for young players it’s always “quantity over quality” but they got a good rental plus a 40 FV (who should be 40+ and exceeds this value if he can he anything more than a 3 true outcome DH with low avg) and 50 FV prospect.
SD made the upside play but so did Cleveland considering Bauer was gone. Less upside I guess than if they went with higher FV guys at lower levels, but they maybe sacrifice a bit of theoretical upside for getting good MLB level prospects. Exactly what a retooling team looking to extend their window should do
Not to mention that getting two quality MLB outfielders really helps their chances for winning this year.
@Landriac exactly. I looked at this and based just on projected WAR, Puig and Reyes combine for 1.4 on ZiPS and Bauer is like 1.5-1.6. just on these basic wrong numbers won’t, if they get anything positive from Allen, this move arguably helps them THIS year (more guys above replacement level they can plug in at SP too) plus all those years of team control
@TwinPeaks yeah. Pence made it as DH in the AL
They got worse for this year, don’t spin that
Are there All-Stars at DH? Because he is dreadful in the outfield.
I agree with everything you said. I didn’t mean “quantity over quality” as a criticism, it’s just a different path. Cleveland did decently well, even more so if getting rid of Bauer has a significantly positive effect in the clubhouse.
Franmil’s value as a DH will depend on many things but there are studies that suggest hitting regresses a bit when a position player moves to DH
I disagree with the idea that they can’t compete next year, but I also hate this deal for the Reds. They have probably a good 4 years of being able to contend given the team control they have, and it doesn’t make much sense to pay full price at the deadline for a guy who isn’t going to make a difference in a playoff race at all this year.
If Bauer is going year to year, why can’t the Reds compete on compensation in at least the first one or two of those years?
I have no idea if they can, or even if they want to. And that goes for a bunch of other teams too. I’m going to be curious to see exactly how big of a one-year deal Bauer can get, and which teams are willing to bid on it.
This return feels a bit light for San Diego given what they gave up. I’m surprised they couldn’t get a decent prospect from Cleveland just to sweeten the deal, because if Trammell doesn’t hit his developmental ceiling then they will have sent out a young but already-established power hitter in Reyes and a decent young pitcher in Allen for yet another average-ish outfielder to add to their collection of Renfroe-Margot-Cordero-etc.
I agree but I also think it’s most likely that prospect would have come from Cincy tbh. Idk what the organizational needs are for SD but lots of the top prospects at lower levels of the minors are either MI or corner OF as well (notably Gabriel Rodriguez has been solid in rookie ball and they have Benson and Richard Palacios). This is at least according to preseason prospect rankings, idk if there was a good match with a 40 or 35+ FV guy
I don’t really know how I feel about this for San Diego. Taylor Trammell has a higher upside than Franmil Reyes, but by how much? Franmil Reyes is a useful major league player now, was their best corner outfielder, and hits the ball extremely hard. Trammell is not going to help them in 2020, when the Padres might actually want help, and he’s no guarantee to help in 2021 either. Giving up Allen also stinks. I am not convinced at all that Reyes is more valuable than Trammell in a 1:1 swap and the Padres gave up more than that.
That said, if this was Hunter Renfroe going out I would have liked this deal a lot more for San Diego.
FWIW I wonder if SD is going to flip him to the Mets in a Syndegard package.Weirder things have happened.
Sadtrombone: I am a Padres fan and no way would I prefer Renfroe being moved over Reyes. In fact, Renfroe is the better corner outfielder. Renfroe has the better OPS, significantly better defense, and is 4-0 in steals, while Reyes has no attempts. The only thing going for Reyes is he is 3.5 years younger and has a bit of a better OB% than Renfroe. But again, Renfroe makes up for it with more slugging. If Reyes is terrible in the outfield now, how will he be in three years? Granted, Renfroe greatly improved on defense from age 24 to age 27, and now even makes appearances in center field.
Yes, Renfroe has a better prospect pedigree too as an FV50 whereas Reyes graduated as an FV40.
I won’t repeat everything carter puts in this thread, but he’s right that there’s still a lot left for Reyes. His xwOBA is in the Top 10% of the league, and his defense isn’t that bad.
Renfroe and Reyes are having similar years both offensively and defensively, except that Reyes has better peripherals, more team control, and is younger. Renfroe is the guy that teams like the Padres hold onto, thinking they’ll be building blocks, when they should be selling before their .300-level OBP pulls him back to his previous level of production.
The difference in there DRS’s is 29 runs, I don’t mean to be a ***hold and usually like your comments but you are flat out wrong here, Renfroe has become a much better defender, they are 2 completely different defenders. They didn’t need to trade either and shouldn’t have, but while there is no NL DH Renfroe over Franmil is the obvious choice
I don’t get what the Padres are doing here. Pitching seems to be the weakness if you want to content next year. A deal for Thor or something like that makes much more sense if you are going to give up Reyes. I think this and the Hosmer deal are going to leave a black eye on what should have been a straightforward contention window.
I also am high on Reyes and think his numbers have gotten suppressed by Petco but I’m shocked by how light this return is.
I think they should have gotten more and if this was just straight Bauer to the Padres with Puig sent to Cleveland for prospects from someone, it makes the most sense
Petco is no longer a pitcher’s park. Padres have (had now) 3 guys with over 25 home runs. They moved the fences in and its playing smaller now
They moved the fences in back in 2013 and Petco has still suppressed HR every year since then. It’s certainly not as bad as it used to be, but it’s still a pitcher’s park. Progressive OTOH has been an above average HR park every year since then. Now, Cleveland is a little imbalanced left vs right because of the fence in LF, but Reyes has shown great power the other way. No, the ballpark upgrade here for Reyes is significant, though certainly not as big as it could have been with several other ballparks.
Not by much. It’s been at .94 and .98 the past two years, and while it was .78 in 2017, it was .94 in 2016.
Blengino actually shows it increasing homers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonyblengino/2019/02/22/hey-manny-machado-petco-isnt-a-pitchers-park/
I think it’s maybe marginally a pitchers park but has definitely come back down to average. Is there a stash somewhere where I can look at Reyes’ oppo power? Cleveland always is in need of a right-handed power bat because in part, they scout lefties because it’s a massive hitters park for lefty pull guys
There was an article here about a month ago describing how Reyes’ power is huge everywhere.
Something was weird about Petco last year but it looks similar to its 2017 figures this year. http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
(happy to explore a better Park Factor page if someone has it).
If they had traded Renfroe in this deal I would have liked it for them. With Reyes? Ehhhh not really.
Preller seems really good at acquiring talent, but not so good at realizing what he has. He may just always think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
It’s almost like they convinced themselves that Trammell was such a great buy low candidate that they lost perspective on what they were giving up.
Renfroe is a much better fielder than Reyes, who was below average in every regard as a fielder. Going forward, Reyes might be the better bat but is far better suited to the AL as a DH-type, whereas Renfroe should fetch a higher value return since he’s a solid defender and hitter.
You know I keep hearing that but his numbers this year don’t really bear that out. He has been basically average in RF on the whole, and been much better as the year went on. He’s a big guy and not that fast but he’s also not some big outlier in right field either, and he makes all the routine plays.
Renfroe has better defensive numbers this year, but you should probably sell high on a guy who is 27 and can’t figure out how to get on base.
The Mets, even with all their problems, do not need corner outfielders. They have too many corner outfielders, too many infielders playing corner outfield because there is no room in the infield, and even more corner outfielders on the IL. If any team would not want Reyes, it is the Mets.
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to argue Thor/Reyes was the deal that made sense. I meant Thor made sense as a return perspective for the Padres. They need pitching or a way out of Hosmer’s contract. Not a 21 year old center fielder who might not stick there. Heck Stroman feels like a better return for this price than what they got.
I’m looking for an article on prospect potential after a trade. The research was about how, if a given player is the X best prospect with predicted 6year WAR of Z, if he’s traded his future WAR is more like some smaller fraction of Z. Sort of the lemon problem, the sending team knows more about the player. I think maybe Touki Toussaint was one of the examples. Any chance someone remembers this? Thanks in advance!
I really like the boldness of Cleveland’s move here. Sure there’s risk involved, given the uncertainty surrounding Kluber, Salazar and Carrasco. But they likely looked around the AL and realized that there not quite as good as the top teams, particularly Houston and New York. This trade may not close the gap entirely but it should close it some, if at least 1-2 of their starters can come back and contribute (how many teams potentially have 3 All Star level starters coming off the DL in the second half???). The offense is now a lot better than it was, with the only gaping hole being second base.
Meanwhile, the trade also helps them for the future. First, they save $15-20 million in salary next year (granted with Cleveland you can’t assume they’ll invest that money free agents, but at least it’s possible). Second, they got two young players in Reyes (already proven at the MLB level) and Allen (Fangraphs #93 prospect to begin the year) who have many more years of control than Bauer. They also get two lottery tickets in Moss and Nova. Few teams are as good as the Indians in identifying under-the-radar prospects so I’m guessing they see something in those two that they can work with. Finally, it means that Jake Bauers heads back to AAA. He’s now had two extended auditions at the MLB level and has been nothing but a disappointment. At this point, more time at AAA seems like the best prescription for him. But until now, the Indians seemed reluctant to make the move….now they have no choice.
Considering that Cleveland gave up (easily) the best player in the deal and they’re fighting for a playoff spot, it’s weird how well they made out of this. It’s a small step back for today, since they probably realize they can’t keep relying on Naquin and Luplow to hit like this. So they subtract Bauer, but add some bats. I don’t think that will play quite as well in the playoffs, and I’d rather they just get some rentals and call it a day rather than give up Bauer, but it’s defensible.
The long-term value is, of course, really good. I just wonder whether it’s worth taking a small step back today given where they are in the standings. It would have been nice to see them just go for it and get some bats.
Yeah, there’s some risk involved this year. But if they can get any two of Kluber, Salazar, and Carrasco back, then I think the rotation, particularly for the playoffs, is just as good with or without Bauer. Meanwhile, they’ve added two bats (one long-term) when most people expected them to only add one bat.
I am really impressed with how much value Cleveland gets out of its deals. The team there is incredibly smart and makes great trades, and has good scouting/development too. It’s the unwillingness to spend money when it counts that is irritating.
One other point that hasn’t been made yet. There were plenty of rumors that had the Indians talking to the Yankees and the Astros re: Bauer.. No idea how serious those talks were but the fact that they sent him to the NL (and to a borderline contender at best) is another point in their favor.
Exactly. Bieber, Clevinger, and Kluber anywhere close to his old self is a solid playoff rotation. Adding in Salazar or Cookie is just gravy. Plus, I’d still put their back end guys like Plutko and Plesac as equal to an Urquidy.
I think Naquin and Luplow still do play with some significant regularity. My gut says they platoon in LF, Puig in RF, with Reyes at DH most days. At least they will rise Naquin as long as he’s hitting. This likely squeezes Allen to being a pinch runner or even optioned as well.
This move based on WAR is probably a wash this year if we don’t consider who replaces who and such but as emh mentioned, it helps them this year. They could keep Bauer and easily repeat 2018 vs the Astros where they scored 6 runs in 2 games. They needed these bats to compete
What an OUTRAGE that a team with less than 10% chance to make the playoffs dared to trade prospects for a quality SP to try to compete down the stretch this year….oh wait, we aren’t talking about the Mets you say?….oh…it’s cool…what a GREAT move by the Reds!
In all honesty, good article – I think the trade works well for what all three teams are trying to do.
Bauer is better than Stroman and the Reds are better than the Mets (both this year and next year, depending on what happens this off-season).
Certainly Bauer is better. And they paid more for him because of it. I like both trades. I was just noting the disparity in the reaction towards the two deals.
I’m not commenting on which is a better team, but it is certainly debatable.
But it makes more sense for the Reds to do this than the Mets, who should be rebuilding unless they are planning to actually spend money this off-season (ha!).
Mets’ payroll clocks in 9th at $161M, Reds 15th at $129M. Mets spent big this past offseason on Cano, Ramos, and Lowrie. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/
Spending money on Free Agents is generally dumb.
Projected WAR on this site disagrees, the Mets are better than the Reds. I really dont get this for Cincy or SD.
Log off, Mr. Wilpon
I don’t think Wilpon can afford to be a FG member…
Got a loan from the commissioner to pay the membership fee
No, see, he knows a guy who can give him returns that always outperform the market, over 20% per year. No, not that guy, that guy went to prison. No, there’s another guy who really can do it, for real this time. Really.
“Trevor Bauer is a Red, for some reason.”
I think a lot of the criticism of the Mets is that they don’t seem to have a clear vision. They traded for Stroman . . . why? Because they want to solidify a great rotation next year? Or because they want to corner the market for their own starting pitchers? Or because they’re ready to move on from Syndergaard, but they still want to compete in 2020?
Now maybe this confusion has all been a media-invention, and BVW does in fact have a clear idea of where he’s taking the Mets. But I don’t think it’s crazy to think that this franchise is still dysfunctional, given the ownership problems. They don’t really deserve the benefit of the doubt right now.
I think that’s the issue. The Stroman trade, in a vacuum, is a nice value for the Mets. It just doesn’t make sense if they’re also going to trade off Syndergaard or other win-now pieces.
Yes, exactly. They got good value with the Stroman trade. But they probably need to rebuild, so why make that move? And if they are going to go for it, why trade Syndergaard or Diaz? It’s just a confusing position. Again, they might have a vision, but they need to prove it.
Okay, so Puig and Reyes will help platoon happy Cleveland in 2019. That’s a plus.
Allen and Moss should help in 2020.
Nova is a lottery ticket but a good one.
A good take.
Reds get Bauer for 19 and 20. He can help a lot but he also frees up the rest of the staff for a further trade. A Castillo, Gray, Bauer trio is one of the better rotations inthe NL Central for 2020.
Or be flipped for more than Trammel and Puig. Also, the early trade gives them two full months to go for the wild card.
San Diego got Trammel’s pedigree and ceiling at CF. He’s a 21 year old 60 in AA. He cost Reyes and Allen. Nova as a throw in. A gamble. But Reyes isn’t a great fit for a DH-less NL league, Allen is a 4 and the Padres have Morejon, and Nova is in Rookie league. If Trammel hits his ceiling it’s a big win filling a team gap. In the worst case scenario of a total collapse they lose little they can’t replace.
It’s a gamble for SD but to an extent they’re playing with house money.
It all depends on how high you are on Trammel.
It looks like a lot of Cleveland trades: everybody got something they wanted.
Cinci got a top starter, SD got a top prospect for a spot they had no near term answer, and Cleveland got both short and long term solutions. No bad player moved but there are lots of possible outcomes everywhere. Everybody could make out like a bandit, all could get burned.
Now to see the followup moves.
Bauer might get flipped or get somebody else moved and Cleveland has a lot of bodies to package.
Going to be a fun trade watcher day.
Just realized: SD might conceivably build a Syndergard trade around Trammel.
With the Mets, you never know…
Reyes helps past 2019 as well
Makes for a kind of interesting comparison with the Stroman trade, no?
Both pitchers generating a little under 3 WAR YTD, both with one more year of team control. Bauer is a bit better*, but also makes a bit more money.
Seems like on the surface that Cleveland’s return >> Toronto’s though.
*Probably, although I think reputation and his 2018 makes the gap look larger than it probably is. The strikeouts are shiny and nice, but his stellar 2018 is looking more and more like it was the beneficiary of some HR suppression luck. This year, Stroman is out FIP’ing him 3.52 to 4.17. With the Mets defense and the Great American Ballpark’s HR issues, I think it’s a very open question which of the two delivers more value over the next 1.3 years.
Mets: I’m going to buy when it makes no sense.
Reds: Hold my beer.
For real, the Mets got great value on their deal with the Blue Jays–I mean, great value–so I kind of see where they’re going with that. It doesn’t make much sense on the surface because their playoffs odds this year are dead, but Woods Richardson and Kay for Stroman would have been an adequate deal as a rental. It’s weird, but it kind of works. The Mets are already locked into a win-now framework. They can’t wait for Woods Richardson to turn into something (if he even does).
The Reds gave up their best prospect, another trade chip, and an interesting-looking lefty flier in the minor leagues for Bauer. Bauer is definitely better than Stroman and will be a huge boost to their staff in 2020, when they could make a run to the playoffs. But they paid rack rate for a deadline deal for Bauer (unlike the Blue Jays with Stroman) when what they really need him for is next year, and they have several years of possible contention ahead of them and they don’t need to be trading their best prospect for a guy who gives them a better shot for one year (and forget about Bauer signing an extension like Sonny Gray; he will never do it).
I’m pretty agnostic on this deal for San Diego and Cleveland, but the Reds made a move that makes way less sense than the Stroman deal that we were all puzzling about 1-2 days ago.
Not really sure what’s puzzling about the Stroman deal. If you think you’re getting great value, make the deal regardless of context. BvW is the new DiPoto.
I, for one, think the Mets made a nice deal for Stroman, but it wasn’t a steal by any means. I projected here that Stroman would go for a FV50- and a lesser prospect (FV35+ or FV40). Instead, he goes for 2 FV45’s, so weaker headliner but better secondary piece. I also projected Bauer would go for an FV55 plus a lesser piece. I think Cleveland got a haul, the Reds made a fair deal, and the Padres gave up too much but maybe this a prelude to another deal for them.
I think this also means the Mets are right to hold out for an FV60 for Syndergaard. Similar to Bauer, with a year of extra control.
I don’t understand how San Diego is happy with this trade. Franmil Reyes is under control for 5 years, has huge power, and is already a league average starter. To get him, a change of scenery candidate, and three other prospects is an absurd haul. Put another way, why would San Diego trade just Reyes for Trammell, let alone throw in two more prospects as well?
Maybe I’m missing something, but this seems like highway robbery for Cleveland, alright for Cincinnati, and absolutely terrible for San Diego.
I suspect that SD felt like Reyes’ defense was bad now and going to progress to unplayable soon. Some pundits (notably, Keith Law) absolutely love Trammell.
Everyone loved Trammell prior to 2019. I feel like those that still do just arent paying attention, either willfully or accidentally. Is this 2019 season akin to McCutchen’s 2007 step back in AA that will go away next year or is it part of a trend? An about to be 22 year old with no power and a high K rate in AA isnt the same guy that we have seen before 2019.
He was set to play college football. He has plus raw power. Not all prospect growth is linear.
Reyes is a league average starter based on (UZR-based) Fangraphs WAR, but he’s barely been above replacement level based on (DRS-based) B-R WAR.
I’ve never seen him actually play, so I have no idea which one is closer to an accurate picture of his ability. But looking at his player page, he has 0.0 UZR and -10 DRS. Factor in his size, and – as soddingjunkmail said above – his defense might make him unplayable in the OF.
Reyes is a DH.
Cleveland doesn’t need him in tbe field except in NL games.
He might want to start breaking in a 1b glove for 2021 and beyond.
The Padres have 40 man roster issues, and probably felt compelled to make a deal to alleviate that, and this might be a real snoozefest of a trade deadline period.
I also think that this move was made for the sake of Wil Myers. Myers got into a serious funk this season, when the Padres already had an outfield logjam. The Padres have so much money invested into Myers until 2023, they can’t just let him rot on the bench and putrify. They need to get Myers back on track, which means clearing the roster for playing time. Myers has hit well in the past week, and is only 28 so there is reason to believe in him.
Dan, love the deadlines articles, keep them coming, thanks!
Just showing how silly SD’s system is right now; they acquire the #31 overall prospect and he slots in fourth in their system…
I actually like this trade for everyone involved but the Padres. They seem a bit like that fantasy team that never transitions from collecting prospects to trying to actually win.
Fun tidbit: Trevor Bauer came to the Indians via another three team trade involving the Reds. Arizona got Didi Gregorious, Tony Sipp, and Lars Anderson. Cleveland landed Bauer, Matt Albers, Bryan Shaw, and Drew Stubbs. Cincinnati got Shin Soo Choo, Jason Donald, and cash. That one certainly worked out well for the Reds and Indians.
I don’t think it’ll work out the same for the Reds just because they’re in a bit worse of a position than they were at that point. That being said, I came here to say this lol.
That was also the last 3 team trade Cleveland made iirc
It’s been somewhat curious to me that Puig’s bat has regressed in the move from LAD to CIN as hitting coach Turner Ward came along with him?!?
Cleveland could have traded Bauer for Trammell, Puig and Moss. They then effectively traded Trammell for Reyes, Allen and Nova. Trammell’s star must have really fallen for them to do that.
Probably. I wouldn’t trade an FV55 for 5 years of Reyes, an FV50, and an FV35+ but if Zips is right that Trammell’s future looks very similar to Reyes’, then I’d take a shot that Logan Allen might be a back-of-rotation mainstay.
I suppose it’s also possible that Reyes and Allen’s stars have risen a lot.
I’m usually of the belief that the team who gets the best player is the winner of a trade, but Cleveland just got so much better despite giving up the best player. The Reds have a really good front of the rotation for next year and they should get better in the offseason, and if they aren’t good in 2020 then they have the best trade chip for next July. The team I don’t like this for is the Padres. Trammell used to be one of my favorite prospects but he’s taken such a big step back this year that it’s iffy. My first thought when I heard they were getting Trammell was that they were going to try to flip him with others to the Mets for Noah, but I guess that isn’t happening now, so I just have to say that I don’t like it for the Pads, and it seems that their fans aren’t too crazy about it either
So if we use the ZiPS projections I fail to see how this deal makes sense for the Padres.
I think it’s fair to expect Trammell to be up in the majors in 2021 so from 2021-2026 he’s projected for 12.7 WAR.
Reyes is projected for 11.6 from 2020-2024 and 0.6 rest of this season, so 12.2 WAR.
A 50 FV pitching prospect (Logan Allen) is worth on average 2.3 WAR https://blogs.fangraphs.com/an-update-to-prospect-valuation/
Padres get: 12.7 WAR
Padres lose: 14.5 WAR
And what does zHR / ZiPS predict Bauer’s HR-allowed totals to be now that he’ll be pitching half his games in the Great American Launchpad on the Ohio?
I wonder if Bauer’s personality limited his market somewhat? I’m happy he did not become a Yankee even though he would have undoubtedly made the on field product better.
Always a few of these. The guy seems like he has no personality to most drones in society because he tries to think before he commits to something. His brain is capable of other things other than reacting to immediate stimuli. Also, he doesn’t hold the views that the mainstream media wants him to, so he perplexes most people, especially those in big cities like New York. (I know the throw was stupid, it’s hard to believe that noone that commented on it has never done the same thing in their lives.)
I would imagine that part of CLE trading Bauer is getting him out of the clubhouse. I can’t imagine he is popular with anyone in the clubhouse. I would imagine that Bauer throws a tantrum or two off the field as well.
I’m sure they won’t miss his clubhouse presence, but is Puig better? I think this one was cancer for cancer.
Puig is a boisterous personality but idt he’s as hateable. There are stories of Bauer telling Hispanic players to like turn down salsa music in the clubhouse because he’s focusing hard on spin rate videos.
Puig is a hothead who loses his cool too but since his demotion in 2016, he’s been very much a team player afaik
Yeah, that’s probably fair. Bauer seems to be universally despised, but actually hated more by his own team than by the rest of the league.
Something being overlooked here is that the Indians might just have made this deal now because if Bauer continues pitching like he has so far this season his trade value would have taken a major hit.
Bauer is ranked 26th in WAR among starting pitchers,leads all of baseball with 63 walks and is 12th in BB/9.His FIP ranking is 36th,xFIP is 33rd and has given up 22 homers(29th in HR/9).
He does rank a respectable 16th in BABIP among qualifying starting pitchers and leads all of baseball in innings pitched and pitches thrown.
Bauer is being portrayed as an elite starter,when his career numbers and recent performance point to more of a competent but erratic, work horse type.