Wander Franco Is Making the Leap

Nathan Ray Seebeck-USA TODAY Sports

Let’s start this article with a bold claim: Wander Franco’s first two seasons in the majors were a disappointment. That’s a startling assertion, even if it might not seem that way at first. Franco hit .282/.337/.439, good for a 121 wRC+, while playing league average defense at shortstop; he was 20 years old for the first of those seasons. He played at a 4.3 WAR per 600 PA clip, which the FanGraphs glossary helpfully notes is an All-Star level. That’s all true. For the best prospect of the past decade, though, it still feels like a letdown.

The real thing that has betrayed Franco is playing time. First for nebulous service time reasons, then due to injury, his first two seasons in the majors were both as brief as they were scintillating. He appeared in 70 games in 2021 and 83 in 2022. His counting stats weren’t exactly imposing: 13 homers, 10 steals, and a mere 72 RBI if you’re playing fantasy baseball. I acknowledge that considering that performance a disappointment is grading on a curve, but when you’re as good and hyped as Franco is, that comes with the territory.

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, it’s time for the good news: that perception is as stale as the sourdough I bought last Wednesday and didn’t finish (hey, there’s a good bagel shop nearby, and I’m only human). Franco isn’t a young up-and-comer this year. He’s a bona fide star, one of the best hitters in baseball so far and the best player on the best team. It’s only a matter of time before your marginally-baseball-following friends start asking you if you’ve heard about this Wander guy. So allow me to present a gift to you as a baseball fan who wants to sound smart to their friends, a guide to why Franco is one of the best players in baseball and what he changed to get there.

First things first: your friend is going to want to know about Franco’s hitting. Defense is great and all, but offense sells tickets. Franco’s otherworldly prospect profile was based on his jaw-dropping numbers, which were compiled at levels he was far too young for. He never hit for silly home run power, but he did everything else. Think peak Nap Lajoie – or, since you almost assuredly have no mental construct for what Nap Lajoie’s stats look like, think Jose Altuve with better plate discipline.

More specifically, Franco combines solid pitch recognition with excellent bat-to-ball skills. Excellent might undersell it, honestly. When he swings at a pitch in the strike zone, he makes contact with it 93% of the time. That’s rarefied air; we’re talking Mookie Betts, José Ramírez, Alex Bregman, and Luis Arraez.

I listed Arraez just because he’s buzzy right now, but the other three share something with this year’s iteration of Franco. They make solid contact frequently. There’s a natural tradeoff between frequency and quality; if you’re getting to everything, you’re generally not getting to it with authority. Franco, like the Betts/Ramírez/Bregman trio, is an exception. Or at least, he is now. In his first two major league seasons, he swung too frequently at pitches he couldn’t do much with. He made contact with them, because that’s his thing, but nearly 30% of his batted balls were hit below 80 mph — mishits, in other words.

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This year, he’s starting to make the change that those three hitters had to make to marry their phenomenal contact with good power: he’s becoming more selective about which pitches to swing at. Not everything in the strike zone is a good pitch to drive. Consider the population of pitches thrown in the strike zone when a batter has fewer than two strikes. Some of those pitches will be good ones to swing at, but not all will be. You can’t measure “good” plate discipline by asking if batters swung at all of them; plenty of the time, it’s better to take a pitch in a tough location and live to fight another day, particularly if you have the kind of contact skills that make an eventual strikeout unlikely.

In his career before this year, Franco swung at 67% of in-zone pitches with fewer than two strikes. This year, he’s down to 51%. That’s a sign of good plate discipline, not bad. When you have a strike to spare and make a lot of contact, you should be looking for loud contact, not just a pitch that is within the boundaries of the strike zone.

That passivity doesn’t work with two strikes, but Franco knows that, and so it hasn’t carried it over. Before 2023, he swung at 92% of pitches in the strike zone after reaching two strikes. So far this year, he’s swinging at 92.3% of them. In other words, he’s making the types of swing decisions that best suit his game, far more than he did before this season.

Now that we know he’s hunting pitches rather than swinging indiscriminately, we can hone in on what he’s trying to do: put the ball in the air with authority. His 0.74 GB/FB ratio is a career low, and his groundball rate is 12 percentage points lower than his previous career mark. You’d expect that to decrease his pull rate; batters overwhelmingly pull grounders, after all, which is why the shift worked well enough to get restricted. But Franco has increased his pull rate, because he’s pulling the balls he hits in the air far more frequently:

Pull Rate by Year, LD/FB
Year LD Pull% FB Pull%
2021 31.7% 17.1%
2022 32.5% 19.7%
2023 38.9% 33.3%

I’ll level with you: it’s still early in the season. These numbers aren’t stable yet. The magnitude of the changes make it clear to me, though, that this is something Franco is doing on purpose. He’s hunting for damage, not just contact. Another way of thinking about it? With fewer than two strikes in 2021 and 2022, Franco hit 24% of his batted balls hard and in the air. This year, that number has ballooned to 33%. Take a great contact hitter and replace some of their soft contact with called strikes, and you might get a change like Franco’s: more production on contact paired with fewer swings.

This change shows up all across Franco’s statistics this year. He’s barreling the ball up more frequently (11.8% of the time against 4.7% before 2023). He’s compiling more extra base hits, hitting 13 in 93 plate appearances so far, a 50% higher rate than in his previous major league career. His hard-hit rate is up. His expected slugging percentage based on launch angle and exit velocity is up more than 100 points. His actual slugging percentage is up more than 100 points. To put it plainly, he handed in his slap hitter card in exchange for a doubles-and-dingers license.

The downside of this change is more strikeouts; even if you have Franco-esque bat control and pitch recognition, going to two-strike counts more frequently gives you more chances to strike out. Indeed, Franco’s strikeout rate has ticked up – all the way to a still impressive 16.1%.

Here’s the thing, though: those strikeouts won’t last. Franco is displaying absolutely exquisite discipline with two strikes. When pitchers throw in the zone, he swings 92.3% of the time, as we talked about up above. That’s the same rate as in his career before 2023, and tremendously aggressive overall. You’d think that aggression might lead to an excessive number of chases, but you probably weren’t considering that Franco is in the process of making the leap to superstardom.

Think of it this way: across the majors, batters swing at 88% of two-strike pitches in the strike zone. In other words, Franco swings more often than average, which is a very good thing with two strikes. On pitches outside of the strike zone, the league as a whole swings 39% of the time. That’s understandable; if you’re in maximum protection mode, you’re more likely to chase. Franco chased out-of-zone pitches 42% of the time with two strikes in 2021 and 2022; he was slightly more aggressive both in and out of the zone, which makes sense given his bat-to-ball skills.

This year, though, he’s only swinging 31.5% of the time. He’s chasing far less often. You can’t throw one by him in the zone with two strikes. Sure, he’ll strike out more by passing on pitches in the strike zone more frequently and getting to two-strike counts, but make no mistake, he’s still one of the best in the business at avoiding strikeouts. The best way to get him might be with a little outside assistance:

These changes are worth recapping. He’s looking for pitches to drive before he reaches two strikes, and driving them when he gets them. When he does get to two strikes, he’s phenomenally aggressive in the strike zone and makes contact at an elite clip. If you leave the zone, he chases far less frequently than average. This is what a superstar hitter looks like. He might not have top-tier power, but he makes up for it by never giving away at-bats and by tapping into everything he has frequently.

It’s hard to spot a breakout in real time. They’re far easier to see in retrospect; early-season statistics fly around, and even bad hitters post good starts. But I’m comfortable saying this isn’t a string of good luck. This is one of the most talented players in baseball starting to put it all together. There simply aren’t many hitters capable of doing what Franco is doing.

I don’t expect this start to fade. There’s nothing fluky here, no red flags that scream “regression.” It took Bregman two seasons to find his footing in the majors. It took Betts roughly the same amount of time, and it was four seasons before he went incandescent in 2018. Ramírez posted a 78 wRC+ in his first 635 plate appearances across three seasons. The superstars who share Franco’s skill set haven’t hit always hit the ground running, but that hasn’t made their long-term trajectory any less impressive.

The biggest question around Franco, in my eyes, is whether he can play a full season. The only way he’ll be able to prove that is by doing it. Short of that, I think he checks every box. After a rough start to his career defensively, he looks solidly average out there, though he’s also capable of turning in highlight reel material:

He’s been caught stealing three times already, but not on any egregiously bad attempts, just close calls that come from pushing the envelope. This is what a great player playing well looks like – no fluky numbers, no glass cannon approach just waiting for pitchers to attack it, just good baseball.

This time next year, I don’t think Franco is going to be a fresh new face. He’s going to be one of the game’s established stars, largely held back by the fact that he doesn’t play in a big market in a coastal city (fine, in an ocean-coastal city, if we’re being literal). This is your chance to get in now – after he’s already made the leap to stardom but before anyone has noticed. Change your mental heuristic of Franco, and thank me later.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

59 Comments
Oldest
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diamonddores
3 years ago

great writeup. This has been the Wander Franco every single person in the scouting industry had me excited to watch the past few years

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  diamonddores

It’s a bit like Freddie Freeman doing a good job at shortstop. Or if you swapped out Mookie Betts’s super-elite baserunning for playing a 60-grade shortstop.

Which, now that I think of it, could also be Mookie Betts right now at age 30 and we don’t know it yet.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s also a bit like one of the old “Cistulli’s Guys” making the leap from being a 50 FV prospect to being Mookie Betts or Jose Ramirez….except that it’s an 80 FV guy making that leap.

This points to two reasons why I had a long leash before lowering my expectations on Franco:

#1 – Power surges around age 22-24 are a real thing.

#2 – Even the best prospects often need ~1000 major-league PAs before hitting their “true” major league level of performance.

Last edited 3 years ago by Mahoney
dl80Member since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

He also lost a crucial year of development to the canceled minor league season in 2020.

Ross
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Look at Jared Kelenic!

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

He’ll be famous this time next year when the Rays shine in the postseason. Atlantic Coast or Gulf Coast.

Balk off
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

A rebranding of the Rays from Tampa to “Gulf Coast” would be awesome.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago

This is the exact type of article I wish I could read about every player in the league. Reminds me of the big-leaguer scouting reports I think BP used to do, or (to me the hallmark of the genre) John Hollinger’s individual NBA player writeups when he was at ESPN. Thanks Ben!

Last edited 3 years ago by raregokus
lavarnway
3 years ago

He’s been incredible this season. Do I owe Eric Longenhagen an apology? When he slapped an 80 FV on Wander I immediately questioned it due to this chart https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-new-fangraphs-scouting-primer/ which says 80 means “top 5 player in baseball” and “7.0+ WAR.” Wander was and incredible prospect and clearly on a trajectory for a great big league career but nothing about his profile suggested that he’d be a top 5 player in baseball. Is he now? Maybe? I don’t know. Looks more 65-70 to me. Great player. Incredible player. Not 80.

downbaddav
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

playing a full season at this rate he’s easily putting up 7+ war

EonADSMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  downbaddav

Currently, he’s on pace for about 8.5 WAR if he puts up 600 PA. 7.1 over 500. That’s pretty elite right there.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  EonADS

“On pace” doesn’t mean anything though, it’s about current + RoS projections.

EonADSMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

It does if you believe this is a breakout rather than that he’s going to default back to past injury-riddled performance.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  EonADS

It’s highly unlikely that he’s going to sustain a .261 ISO and .348 BABIP. This definitely looks like a breakout (I’d be a fool to say it’s not) but regression is also going to happen. The projections properly account for those things.

Balk off
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

RoS, Steamer has him at a .170 ISO and .307 BABIP, ZiPS at .193/.299. His ISO was higher than Steamer RoS in 300 ABs a 20 year old rookie and his BABIP has only been below .310 once in professional ball, at .290 last year, when half the balls he was hitting were grounders and twice as many were hit softly versus this year. But they’re also predicting a K rate of 11.5%. They’re behind. You’d be better off using his expected stats to predict regression, and they do show some inflation: BA .315, xBA .291; SLG .576, xSLG .534; wOBA .408, xwOBA .383. But even .290/.380/.530 is like, Mike Trout at 22.

nnddkk
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Even this puts him at around 6.5 WAR in 150g regardless of what projection system you use. And that’s assuming that he hasn’t established a new level of play.

Last edited 3 years ago by nnddkk
lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  downbaddav

Depth Charts has him at 4.9 ROS, so he’s right on the cusp of 7.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Not yet, but if he puts up a couple of 7 win seasons…yeah, you do. And he’s on pace for it now (although Acuna was on pace for like an 11 win season or something last time I checked, so a lot could happen between now and then).

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If he puts up more than one 7 WAR season I will happily compose an apology letter to Eric saying that I was wrong and he was right lol. You can mark that down.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

An 80 grade is a super gutsy prediction because there’s no way for him to exceed it. 7 wins is the top of the scale. I suppose you could be a generational talent like Mike Trout or Randy Johnson. But putting up a couple of 7 win seasons as the median outcome means there are as many cases where he gets hurt and falls short of that as those where he gets at least that high.

I don’t have a particular dog in this fight, I went back and checked and my response to him being an 80-grade prospect was “wowee” but not really disagreeing.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I respect the guts. And at the time I think we had a discussion about the philosophical aspect of the prospect rating scale. If you NEVER drop an 80 then maybe you probably re-evaluate the scale. But if you’re going to define 80 based on what the “20-80” article defines it as then it would be foolish to place that on any prospect.

John ChurchMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

I was reading the Royals’ pre-draft scouting report on Bo Jackson, which had a lot of 7s, but no 8s. And I thought “if you aren’t even putting an 8 on Bo Jackson, what are you doing as a scout?” Wander, A-Rod; I know you could end up with an 8 on Jurickson Profar and look foolish 7 years later, but filing a report on a guy like that has to be what scouts live for, right?

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  John Church

Tbf if you are talking about the Bo Jackson report that I also read there was a ton of negative stuff on there about Bo. It didn’t read positive at all. With that said Bo Jackson certainly isn’t the first person I would think of to put an 80 on. Tons of talent, but he to this day he has one of the highest K% of all time at 32%, was a horrible defender despite those amazing throws, never walked, and didn’t really hit well for an outfielder either. His K% in a non k environment stood out. It is right up there with guys like Gallo, Sano, Wisdom, Chris Carter, Chris Davis and a bunch of NL pitchers. He doesn’t have their power, and the rest of the guys are catchers

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  John Church

The best position player prospect of all time was definitely A-Rod. You could make a solid case he should have been an 80. The other contenders aside from Wander Franco are Harper and Griffey Jr. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would have put Jackson or Trout or Mauer or Vlad Jr on that level and definitely not someone like Bryant or Profar. The only other position player who would have made sense at that level was Andruw Jones.

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Adley was a 70 but he also felt like about a sure thing as you can be with good defense and similar bb to k percent. Argument could be made for him as well. I guess recent lack of success of catchers made it less likely, but he didn’t really seem like a guy who had any chance of busting. I was a toddler when Griffey debuted, so I wouldn’t really recall, but scouting the stat line an 80 makes sense there as well. I would say Harper was a pretty sure thing. I know this feels like a bit of hyperbole, but he was ready for the MLB at 16, and having spent a lot of time around him through various travel ball teams I would say even younger, as ridiculous as that is to say, I don’t think he has improved much since he was 13. He was hitting balls 450+ at those ages and throwing in the mid 90s. He has improved his eye, he has improved other aspects of his game, but he was a 80wRC+ guy at 13, 100%, and was an above avg mlb hitter by 16. If you go back and watch his swing at that age it stands out as a poor MLB swing with all the head movement…but if you watch his swing up until maybe two years ago it was largely unchanged. Way too much head movement, incredibly steep bat plane. It wasn’t until the last two years that he actually made adjustments to his swing, that seem to be for the better in my eyes.

Last edited 3 years ago by carter
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  carter

Adley was an incredible prospect. Franco, Harper, and then Adley have been the best position player prospects in the Fangraphs era. And then probably Vlad Jr. Not sure after that.

nnddkk
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

And at the time I think we had a discussion about the philosophical aspect of the prospect rating scale. If you NEVER drop an 80 then maybe you probably re-evaluate the scale.

If you think that never/extremely rarely putting an 80 on someone means that the scale needs to be re-evaluated, then you’re completely correct when you say it’s time we had a discussion about it–we need to have a discussion because you don’t understand how it works.

The fact that 80 FV is basically never used doesn’t mean that scouts think there’s nobody out there who will be an 80 player… it means that they think there’s basically nobody out there for whom being an 80 player would be the median outcome. And that is almost exclusively the case. Wander was the rare prospect for whom superstardom truly was a median outcome. Think about it: To this point, Wander has largely fallen short of expectations–and yet he’s averaged 5.6 fWAR per 162 and 6.7 rWAR per 162 over the course of his age 20, 21, and (the beginning of) 22 seasons.

Unless it’s your contention that either (a) he hasn’t fallen short of expectations thus far, or (b) as good as he’s been in his career so far is as good as he’ll ever be — then it makes no sense to declare that it was “foolish” to hang an 80 on him.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  nnddkk

80 means best player in baseball. I’ve always questioned about whether that was accurate to place on Wander as a probably outcome. 65 (perennial all-star) or 70 (top 10 player). Yes absolutely. I don’t think he’s fallen short of expectations, I just question whether putting an 80 on him was the correct expectation.

Dan B
3 years ago
Reply to  nnddkk

A scale where you never use the top of the scale is a little bit broken. That’s not an argument about this player, but about the measurement system.

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan B

What Dan B said

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

MVP race between Acuna, Nimmo, Murphy, and Outman just like we all projected

nnddkk
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

When he slapped an 80 FV on Wander I immediately questioned it due to this chart https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-new-fangraphs-scouting-primer/ which says 80 means “top 5 player in baseball” and “7.0+ WAR.” … [N]othing about [Wander’s] profile suggested that he’d be a top 5 player in baseball.

Huh? Just for a point of comparison, I am looking at a shortstop who hit .307/.377/.456 with 15HR/8SB, played average SS defense, and was a positive but not spectacular baserunner in 2022. By my back-of-envelope math, that .307/.377/.456 slashline equates to about a 146 wRC+ if done in Tropicana. A 146 wRC+ plus ~average shortstop defense and good-but-not-outstanding baserunning puts you at about 7.5 WAR per 150g, good for 2nd in the MLB last season.

You think there was “nothing about wander’s profile that suggested” he’d be able to put up a .307/.377/.456 15HR season? Not the .339/.408/.464 (12% BB/7% K) line he put up in high-a as an 18yr old or the .313/.372/.583 (8% BB/12% K) he put up in AAA at age 20? Okay, if you don’t like those numbers then what about the scouting report? You think there’s “nothing” about a top-of-scale hit/above-average power bat with solid defense at a premium position that suggests 7WAR seasons might be in store?

Hell, even if you want to ignore all of that, this is a guy who put up 5 or 6 WAR over his first 162g at the MLB level, despite doing it between the ages of 20 to 22. You say he “looks more 65-70″… Well, that’s basically right if you think this season is a total fluke and his age 20 and 21 seasons are his final form.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  nnddkk

Depth Charts RoS has him at 4.9 WAR which is 10th in baseball. That’s a 70 player. You want to see an 80 player? His name is Mike Trout. https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=all&stats=bat&type=rfangraphsdc

Dan B
3 years ago
Reply to  nnddkk

I might be misunderstanding the scale, and I am not disagreeing with you but isn’t the interpretation of an 80 grade that he would be worth say 7 WAR per year for his team control… so 42 WAR cumulatively from 21-26? Wander might still get there (I think he will) but he would have to sprinkle in some 8/9 WAR seasons and stay healthy (I am not sure how the made up scale treats injuries) to be an ex post 80 grade guy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan B

For a position player, an 80-grade prospect is someone who is one of the Top 5 players in baseball (on average) during their team control years. They calculate that out as being worth more than 7.0 fWAR on average over those six years but it’s worth noting that there is an inconsistency between “Top 5 position player” and “having 42 fWAR or more during your team control years.” As far as I can tell, there are only four position players from 1980 to the present who have had 42 fWAR in their team control years (Trout, Boggs, Pujols, and Rickey Henderson, and Rickey’s depends on if you count his bad rookie year). A-Rod didn’t do that. Griffey didn’t. Bonds didn’t. Andruw Jones didn’t. Ripken didn’t. So the definition of a “Top 5 player” and “42 wins in six years” is internally inconsistent.

A more consistent definition with the Top-5 player is a multi-year peak that averages more than 7 wins. This is probably how Eric uses it anyway despite the official words on the page. Even then, this is a pretty stringent definition. This would include A-Rod, Griffey, Bonds, Andruw Jones, Ripken, Frank Thomas, and McCutchen. It would probably also include Mookie Betts, Jeff Bagwell, and Aaron Judge (although not under all definitions). But it would not include Manny Machado, Francisco Lindor, Tim Raines, Bryce Harper, and Scott Rolen.

So you kind of have to decide if an 80-grade performance is a generational talent during their team control years (4 guys in a 40-something year stretch) or a player who is typically one of the Top 5 players in the league at their best in their team control years (about 20 guys in a 40-something year stretch).

Balk off
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

It seems like your gripe is more with the ratings process in general than with his in particular. The rating is a prediction based on underlying skills…multiple scouts said his skills are the best they’ve ever seen, thus, 80. Translating that into concrete future production is difficult enough that most scouts and services refuse to do it…that’s why the 20-80 system exists lol. What this article is telling you is that those skills were so elite, he was able to be an above average major league producer at 20-21 without having any real approach at the plate, along with service time tinkering, injuries, and a twice-in-baseball-history pandemic affecting his development…i.e., high levels of external variability. The 80 was essentially a prediction that even if those obstacles came, he would be here, and here he is.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
3 years ago

I must admit that I was questioning the height of the pedestal that Franco had been placed upon but he is convincing me, and Ben, can I assume you wrote this before he became the 2nd member of the Keith Mitchell Hall of Amazing One-handed Catches?

tunglashrMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

That was Kevin Mitchell.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  tunglashr

Oops! Keith Mitchell plays on the PGA Tour and, since I am a golf pro, I had a busted connection.

Last edited 3 years ago by bosoxforlife
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Kevin Mitchell also has a cousin Keith who played MLB

Dmjn53
3 years ago

His career bWAR/162 thus far is 6.7. 6.7!

If that was a disappointment, I’d hate to see what his peak might look like

Sonny LMember since 2017
3 years ago

The Mookie Betts leap was what I held out hope for when we saw glimpses last year before injury.

The 80 hit / 50 raw / 70 game might be the most fun profile in baseball

dl80Member since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Sonny L

Jose Ramirez has to be pretty close to that kind of profile, too.

kid
3 years ago

Wander was predominantly a GB hitter throughout the minors, and this – combined with the relatively mild power – had me thinking he might be closer to Michael Brantley than Jose Ramirez or Altuve. But if the LA/Barrel/FB changes can stick, even 50-75% of them, then the Ramirez ceiling is within shouting distance.

As a corollary, looking at the Ramirez/Altuve/Betts/Bregman types, it’s interesting that all of them routinely outpace their “expected” stats, especially the slugging. Is there something about the high-contact/mild power/FB-heavy hitters that Statcast computers don’t understand?

Last edited 3 years ago by kid
lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

As a corollary, looking at the Ramirez/Altuve/Betts/Bregman types, it’s interesting that all of them routinely outpace their “expected” stats, especially the slugging. Is there something about the high-contact/mild power/FB-heavy hitters that Statcast computers don’t understand?”

Yeah it sure seems like it. I like your analysis and comparison to Ramirez.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Since all systems use some type of reversion to the mean every star player is going to far exceed these tempered down predictions.

tunglashrMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

This isnt how regression works. It isnt regression to the mean of everyone, it is regression to their established mean.

Captain Tenneal
3 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I don’t think the “expected” statcast stats have any sort of regression built in because they’re not projections. It’s kind of like saying all great pitchers will beat their FIPs because they rack up tons of strikeouts. Some great pitchers might beat their FIPs, but if they do, it would be because they are great at inducing soft contact or minimizing damage with runners on or something like that.

A common reason for someone to outperform their expected statcast stats is by being faster than average, since they can turn gap singles into doubles and some doubles into triples. A less common one might be that they have tons of backspin on their most valuable batted balls that causes them to carry further. So not every star players will exceed their expected stats; the fact that these guys routinely do suggests that they have something else that separates them from the crowd (even the crowd of other superstars).

Sonny LMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

The GB% concerns with Wander concern me less than other players because the hit tool is exception. You bet on Betts and Altuve to optimize batter ball quality but you know it takes time. Looks like it took 150 games. Not unlike Vladito

nnddkk
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

I’d also thought of “peak brantley but as a SS” as a wander comp, and although i’m not sure it’s necessarily that far off (peak brantley was a great hitter!), I think the difference is basically the degrees of outcome. That is to say, Brantley’s 2-year peak of .327/.385/.506/20HR and .310/.379/.480/15HR came in his age 27 and 28 seasons, at which point he had polished his approach to absolute perfection. Wander, on the other hand, could reach those numbers damn near by accident. If he ever reaches that absolute top-level of polish at the plate that the guys you listed reached, then I think JRam and Mookie are very much offensive possibilities for wander.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  nnddkk

Yeah, peak Brantley as a shortstop is a ridiculously, comically good baseball player. He regularly ran wRC+’s of 130 or higher, and had one season of 150. Positional adjustment on a shortstop is 7.5 over a full season; if you assume he’s average defensively and only a slightly above average baserunner (I mean, barely), you get comparisons like Carlos Gomez in 2014 (132 wRC+, 5.7 fWAR) or DJ LeMahieu in 2019 (136 wRC+, 5.9 fWAR). If he’s closer to that 150 wRC+ of “peak Michael Brantley” you could see how he would wind up with a 7-win season.

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

I know this isn’t your exact question, but I think there is something there. If you look at home run per fly ball rate guys like Ramirez, Arenado, Betts, Bregman, Altuve etc are not standouts at all. But the bat to ball skills equal more of the desired outcome (fly balls) which leads to better than average expected stats? I don’t know. Just guessing.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

Perhaps they are particularly good about their spray angles even more than just pull/center/oppo.

(Almost) anything hit in that 40-45 degree range (right off the line) with any reasonable velocity is going to drop and likely for extra bases. You’ll also pop a few more HRs than expected (from velo/LA) that way. That 10-20 degree range are your gaps and again, barring a Kiermaier out there, that’s gonna wind up a hit (and even more likely a XBH).

I’m not suggesting players have ability to aim to that extent (or batting averages would be much, much higher), but if you have an 80 hit, maybe you can get a lot closer to being able to hit those ideal spray angles more frequently.

Balk off
3 years ago
Reply to  kid

Trout is another one of the guys whose stats outperform his expected stats, just with more power. My suspicion is that even all solid contact is not the same. The expected stats work purely off of EV and launch angle. I don’t think we’ve worked in batted ball spin rate yet, and being able to spin a fly ball is a huge part of getting carry that outplays its exit velocity. Every one of these guys has an “A-C” swing that goes straight from load up high to contact, and they have a relatively flat finish with their hands at or below the top of the front shoulder. They elevate the ball by where they strike the ball instead of looping and having an upward angle in their swing…and striking through the ball flat, or even slightly downward, creates more backspin. The other thing is having the bat control to place the ball, so that your 105 mph barrel doesn’t go straight at the center fielder, but I think it has more to do with backspin than that. The differences in their swings are obvious if you look at them in comparison to guys like Shohei Ohtani, Bryce Harper, or Ronald Acuña, guys with elite exit velocities but whose expected stats are usually in line with or higher than their production.

Philip ChristyMember since 2026
3 years ago

Gotta say, I’m pretty disappointed you let your sourdough bread go stale.

newsenseMember since 2020
3 years ago

“…in an ocean-coastal city, if we’re being” littoral.

Balk off
3 years ago

I’ve been holding onto him in a keeper league since he was in rookie ball. The description here is spot on, and Jose Ramirez has always been the closest comp to me. There were so many times last year where he’d ground into double plays, or roll over a 1-1 curveball, and it’d kill you to watch because you knew it was his instincts to swing in the zone working against him. I thought it’d be a 2 or 3 year process for him to add a “damage oriented” approach, I didn’t think it would happen with one offseason. This makes me even more optimistic about how high his ceiling could be, too, because it suggests that his insane numbers in the minors weren’t from waiting for meatballs to crush; he was completely relying on his talent and instincts to react to pitches anywhere in the zone, but that talent still allowed him to put up those numbers.

nktokyo
3 years ago

He was making the leap in the first month last year and then got hurt, came back and broke his hand on a HBP. He reminds me of Ramirez in that he seems to be able to lace a double or two a game when everyone else in the lineup is flailing.