What to Do When You Read a Silly Trade Rumor

You know who’s bad? The Phillies! They’re the kind of bad that knows they’re bad, so they’re looking to sell off some pieces. Everyone saw this coming. Even them. You know who’s been a different sort of bad, the kind of bad that still wants to be good? The Mariners! The Mariners refuse to give up; it makes sense they could be a buyer. This all brings us to the rumor that’s spiraling out of control at the moment on the web, courtesy of Bob Dutton:

The Mariners inquired into the availability of Philadelphia outfielder Ben Revere, as first reported by CSNPhilly.com, but talks quickly stalled when the Phillies asked for either Taijuan Walker or James Paxton in return.

You recognize that as a pretty silly trade rumor. So has everyone else on the Internet, which means it’s been another opportunity to make fun of the Phillies and Ruben Amaro. It’s not that Revere doesn’t have his uses — it’s that, yeah, you don’t pay $20 for a box of Ritz crackers, unless you do only have $20, and literally the only sustenance available is a box of Ritz crackers. This is a funny thing to read. But, how ought you move forward when you see a thing like this? I have a two-step suggestion.

1. Laugh

As people, we don’t seize enough opportunities for laughter. I think we’re all generally aware that it’s good for us, that it’s genuinely beneficial for health, but we do tend to take things too seriously. Even our sports. Our sports! What could be less important than the arbitrary athletic performance of privileged strangers? Don’t be too serious, over a silly trade rumor. Laugh about it. Does it seem funny? Treat it like it’s funny. Make jokes. Every joke is less time spent thinking about how the curtains drop on all of us.

If there’s a rumor that seems particularly lopsided, jokingly speculate about the parties involved. One of the general managers must be crazy. Take this rumor. Ben Revere is fast, and he costs millions of dollars. If acquired, he might displace Dustin Ackley, who doesn’t appear to be a worse player. The Phillies were said to want Taijuan Walker or James Paxton, each of whom have been highly sought after as big-league-capable starters. Their ceilings are high, their present-day performances are adequate, they have more years of control remaining than Revere does, and for good measure the Mariners don’t have much rotation depth. That’s the kind of deal we’d kill the Mariners for if they made it.

And you think about the reported pattern. Word is Ruben Amaro wanted a lot from the Yankees for Marlon Byrd. Bob Nightengale reported that, for Cole Hamels, Amaro wanted Joc Pederson, Corey Seager, and Julio Urias. Amaro has developed a reputation for asking for way too much for his pieces, and this would fit in. That’s funny. It’s funny that Amaro might be trapping himself, despite a team badly in need of turnover. What a maroon! What a chance to crack more jokes about a team executive whose internet standing is a caricature.

It’s not bad to laugh. Laugh at things that amuse you. Thing is, this is where most people stop. Which is fine — some people don’t want to have to think too critically about the sports they follow. But as far as I’m concerned, there’s another step. Laugh at the rumor, first. Then:

2. Stop Laughing

Hell, you could take Amaro at his word:

“Typically we would not comment on rumors,” said Amaro. “But when they reach this level of ridiculousness, I can say unequivocally that what has been written is false.”

I know this takes some of the fun out of it. That’s why I encourage that you have your fun, first. You’re entitled to make jokes, but if you want to think your way through things, you need to keep going. The fact of the matter is, plenty of rumors are false. Even those rumors that get down to specifics. Some are just flat-out made up. Some fail to report other moving parts involved. Some overstate the significance of a quick conversation. It’s almost impossible to tell the difference between a fake rumor and a real one. All of them are leaked or reported intentionally for some reason.

And let’s say you’ve decided a given silly rumor is legitimate. Let’s say you even know it’s legitimate. You know the details of a lopsided and rejected trade proposal. How do you think negotiations work? Teams don’t just suddenly reach agreements. They work toward trades, exchanging names until they find some common ground. For every trade that takes place, there could’ve been, I don’t know, a dozen variations. And every proposal that gets turned down is turned down because one of the teams doesn’t think it’s fair. Think about that. In the history of baseball, there have been millions of proposed trades that didn’t happen. What if all of those were reported? So many of them would be funny, but the humor would come from the premise that the trade could even be possible. Things that don’t happen can’t be made fun of because they could’ve happened. They didn’t happen. Negotiating takes time, and disagreement.

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And lastly, silly rumors touch every team. Just about, anyway; I didn’t do exhaustive research for this. But in this case, it’s not like Amaro is the only executive in baseball who’s reportedly asked for too much. Consider the Red Sox:

The Boston Red Sox initially wanted Chicago Cubs starting pitcher Matt Garza to be included as compensation for general manager Theo Epstein, but the Cubs refused, according to major league sources.

Consider the Orioles:

Rather than extract a strong compensation package for Duquette — and no, we’re not talking about his reported demand for at least the Jays’ two first-round picks last season, pitcher Jeff Hoffman and catcher Max Pentecost — he kept the Orioles in an unsettled state.

Consider the Rays:

When the Tribe talked to Tampa Bay [about David Price], names mentioned by the Rays were Carlos Santana and Danny Salazar.

I was told those two were starting points, and the Rays also wanted some top minor league prospects. I heard Francisco Lindor’s name also was mentioned.

Consider the Blue Jays:

as @Ken _Rosenthal reported, BoSox tried to pry Farrell from Toronto. I heard Jays asked for Clay Buchholz in return, which ended talks.

Consider Billy Beane, back in the day:

The Yankees asked the A’s about Mark Kotsay, but talks went nowhere after GM Billy Beane asked for Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang.

And consider the case of the Astros. Do you remember this? These were actual leaks of stored internal information. They wanted Dylan Bundy or Kevin Gausman for Bud Norris. Alternatively, for Norris, they wanted Xander Bogaerts. They wanted Lucas Giolito for Lucas Harrell. They offered Jarred Cosart and Delino DeShields for Giancarlo Stanton. The Astros were embarrassed by the leaks, and they reached out to other teams to apologize, and while some argued that bits of the information were inaccurate, there weren’t any whole denials. That was a window into how a front office operates, and based on the Houston example, they kept starting with lopsided proposals. The Astros front office has drawn its own criticism over the years, but its perception couldn’t be more different from the perception of Amaro, and yet here we are. Both of them have been linked to comical nonsense. And the only stuff we know to be true is the stuff involving Houston.

There are your steps. They should be widely applicable. You’re going to see some awful rumors in the coming weeks, with the deadline on the way. Enjoy them as much as you like. Laugh. It’s as valuable as taking deep breaths. Nothing wrong with finding humor in life; it’s all around you, and you just have to see it. Don’t stop there, though, if you consider yourself a critical thinker. Is a rumor really bad? Question its legitimacy. Remember that negotiations have to start somewhere. And remember that every team in baseball has proposed lopsided deals that didn’t get made. Not everyone in the league is equivalently skilled in the art of negotiation. But then, this is one area where we should only care about results-based analysis. The only moves that matter are the moves that actually happen.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

61 Comments
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Level 23 Mage
11 years ago

I have Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, Joc Pederson, Giancarlo Stanton, and Andrew McCutchen in a keeper league. Should I offer my Pederson for another team’s Troy Tulowitzki and Buster Posey?

McNulty
11 years ago
Reply to  Level 23 Mage

I say it doesn’t matter. You’re in a league with a bunch of idiots.

I once posted as Ruben Amaro
11 years ago
Reply to  McNulty

Grab some RBI guys, preferably 35 or older.

channelclemente
11 years ago
Reply to  McNulty

I hear Billy Beane is trading Josh Donaldson for a promise of cheese and a box of saltines. I laughed at the time, so I see your point.

Ruben Amaro
11 years ago
Reply to  Level 23 Mage

That might not be enough in return for Joc Pederson. Maybe I could interest you in Ben Revere?

Jeffy
11 years ago
Reply to  Level 23 Mage

What a maroon!

CabreraDeath
11 years ago

One of the more condescending and patronizining articles I’ve read. It also, ironically, made me laugh.

Mulsanne
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

It’s not really condescending, patronizing, or ironic.

CabreraDeath
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

Anytime a grown man tells another grown man how to react is condescending. Youre trying to play the ‘reasonable man’ in the room and it doesn’t work. I’d suggest comtinuing to write extremely well on the intricacies of baseball and stay away from telling people how to handle their own emotions.

Jake
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

So you’re telling readers, of which some are “grown men”, that they should feel that Jeff was being condescending. Thus you’re telling them how to react to Jeff’s article. I find that very condescending.

You’re trying to play the ‘troll’ in the room, and it’s working. Here’s some food for ya.

Mike Gundy
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

Come after me. I’m a man! I’m 40!

Kurt
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

It’s just as condescending when I talk to my 11 year old about the same exact thing. But atleast he doesn’t whine about it when he knows I’m joking at his expense for acting like a tool.

tiredofmorons
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

Jeff, please don’t let cabreradeath make you self-conscious. He’s just another ignorant, nasty, aggressive piece of shit. They’re everywhere and they live for attacking others. Let him wallow in his white trash idiocy in silence.

Paul Kasiński
11 years ago
Reply to  tiredofmorons

Why does race have any place in this discussion?

magichat#9
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

Patronizing toward whom? Amaro? I don’t get this comment at all–the piece is a good reminder not to let narrative overwhelm reality.

Ruben Amaro
11 years ago
Reply to  magichat#9

I don’t find it patronizing at all. The parasites will always try to bring me down.

What is the difference between a man and a parasite, you ask? A man builds. A parasite asks, “Where is my revenue share?” A man creates. A parasite asks, “What will the New York Mets think?” A man invents. A parasite says, “Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of Robert Manfred.”

Paul
11 years ago
Reply to  Ruben Amaro

I wasn’t expecting to see a Bioshock reference in this article. Well done.

E_Baseball_LI5
11 years ago
Reply to  Ruben Amaro

Sounds like something out of an Ayn Rand novel.

Frank Fontaine
11 years ago
Reply to  Ruben Amaro

Would you kindly?

Budert Manlig
11 years ago
Reply to  Ruben Amaro

Who is John Galt?

yaboynate
11 years ago
Reply to  CabreraDeath

Not to mention outrageous, egregious, preposterous!

MG
11 years ago

It does matter a bit including the source who reported it. This was originally reported by Bob Dutton at the Tacoma News Tribune including the actual trade demand (and not just interest) by Amaro.

If Jim Salisbury, who covers the Phils for CSN, reported this rumor including the trade demands originally with Amaro to only vigorously deny it as he did this afternoon that matters a lot. Salisbury is generally as quite friendly/chummy with the team and often is a preferred media outlet for them to push things publicly.

maqman
11 years ago
Reply to  MG

Bob Dutton is a fine baseball writer and a former president of the BWAAA, not remotely the type to make up a story.

PhilliesFan
11 years ago

I know i should laugh
Laughter is the best medicine after all and my seasonal allergies are figuratively murdering me
But it’s hard to hear this and not feel grim about the future of my favorite team

Ruben Amaro
11 years ago
Reply to  PhilliesFan

Guys, what you are all not realizing is that Revere has a ton of potential. His IsoP has grown 3 years in a row and has nearly doubled. At this rate, he could become a true power threat in a decade or so. I’m talking potential 5-HR power.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4712_OF_season_mini_6_20150611.png

Zack Greinke's glorious man bun
11 years ago
Reply to  Ruben Amaro

Nice try. You don’t know what IsoP is.

Captain Obvious
11 years ago

Oh silly me, now I’ve learned how negotiation works!

The difference between Ruben Amaro and all the other FOs mentioned is that they have a history of making good deals–and some that turned out to be stinkers, but even St. Billy makes a mistake now and then. Looking back at Ruben Amaro’s tenure as GM, what good moves do we see? Maybe there are some, I’m not an expert in the day to day of the Phillies during his tenure, but I think it’s telling that this article doesn’t cite any.

bookbook
11 years ago

Sure. But Revere for Paxton or Walker, if consummated, wouldn’t reflect badly on Amaro at all.

Spoilt Victorian Child
11 years ago

It’s tough to find much fault with the Halladay and (original) Lee deals.

Eric R
11 years ago

“Oh silly me, now I’ve learned how negotiation works!”

Revere for Walker or Paxton as an opening offer to get negotiation rolling is like you asking $50k for your 1984 Pontiac Grand Prix.

You could say that is just the first number now lets negotiate, but it isn’t even remotely in the realm of a sensible ask. What you are more likely doing is telling buyers that you aren’t interested in selling at all and just ultimately having lots of people hang up on you.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Eric R

But is it any crazier than asking for Scott Kazmir in return for Victor Zambrano? Or asking for Wheeler in exchange for 2 months of Carlos Beltran? Sometimes trades go through, and you wonder why a GM would give up such a great young player without getting a long term piece back. If a GM is afraid to sound foolish, then they’ll never make out like a bandit because they’ll never make a lopsided offer.

The criticism for Amaro is probably justified, because he doesn’t seem to use these offers as a starting point. They seem to be a starting and ending point, and he holds onto his pieces when his offer is rejected. But if Revere was on your favorite team, you should want your GM to ask for the moon as a starting point.

Westside guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Eric R

I sometimes wonder if these counter proposals do actually happen, but it’s just a quick way GMs have of telling the other party they’re not particularly inclined towards moving Player X (unless they are willing to massively overpay).

“Sure, Arte, I’ll listen to your offer for Iwakuma… but, just to let you know, we’d want to get Mike Trout back”.

Nate
11 years ago

Lively for Byrd. Eflin/Windle for Rollins. Signing Harang. Roberto Hernandez for Arano and Valentin last year. I could go on.

On the whole, Amaro hasn’t been a great GM, but he isn’t a complete idiot, and has even been somewhat good the last couple of years. That’s why the piling-on (reflected by rumors like this and exacerbated by what is increasingly becoming the Fangraphs echo chamber) is getting pretty tiring.

I admit, it’s a pretty convenient, hilarious narrative. Ruben Amaro is a loony, incompetent moron! It’s just not actually really true anymore.

I once posted as Ruben Amaro
11 years ago
Reply to  Nate

It’s basically a meme at this point. Just like not every Nickelback song is automatically one of the worst things ever written, but the meme dictates that knee jerk reaction.

Cliff
11 years ago

Wrong. The moves that DON’T actually happen because the GM is making crazy unreasonable demands matter too.

Dr. Obvious
11 years ago

It is ironic that you always hear about the crazy price Amaro asks for veterans, then look at the garbage he gets when he does pull the trigger

bflaff
11 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Obvious

Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt, and Hunter Pence?

One man’s garbage…

Los
11 years ago
Reply to  bflaff

In his defense, he did say that Amaro asks for veterans…as in veterans he is trading away. He didn’t comment on when he was acquiring veterans.

Stuck in a Slump
11 years ago
Reply to  bflaff

Gose is looking like he might be a decent CF option. Singleton is still only 23 and has the potential to be a stud, and Cosart looks to be a serviceble back of the rotation arm.

Only the Lee and Halladay trades really benefited the team. The Phillies OF is a mess right now, Gose has actually outperformed them all, and I’m sure the Phillies would have loved to have kept Singleton as the eventual replacement for Howard.

Ben Cherington
11 years ago

Dear Ruben:

I’ll give you Hanley, Panda, Porcello, Miley, Masterson, Kelly, AND Ortiz for Hamels. Get back to me.

Ben

wildcard09
11 years ago

What to do when you see a Jeff Sullivan article posted:

1. Get giddy like a schoolgirl.
2. Read the article.
3. Miss NotGraphs.

Paul
11 years ago
Reply to  wildcard09

You forgot a step between 2 and 3: Read the comments.

Rubén a
11 years ago

That trade proposal was ridiculous. I wanted Brixton and pexton plus 3 top prospects. Revere is one of the elite players in the league he is one of the fastest players with lots of range in the of. He has one of the highest average and he does not take a walk cause he reaches base the right way. He is also French. Which is worth at least one extra prospect

Chad
11 years ago

Stop immediately, then move on to something not written by a schizophrenic beat writer. While sometimes funny, there are so many of these out there you can waste away your life reading them.

ReuschelCakes
11 years ago
Reply to  Chad

well, reading them, reading the comments and then posting your own comment… it would seem…

Sean
11 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

Pretty sure he was referring to the original trade rumour and not calling Jeff a “schizophrenic beat writer”

I
11 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

Chad wasn’t talking about this article. He was answering the title’s question.
I know it’s very internet-y to pounce on everyone for everything. But a little generosity when reading people’s thoughts goes a long way.

Yep
11 years ago

In an age where every sports fan considers themselves an intellectual because they can kinda read sports stats, I found it hilarious and weird how many people I saw dive right into that Walker rumor with no skepticism. What is the end game in giving rumors like this the time of day? Where does this take us? Hell, what does it say about people now?

Between this and the earliest Hamels rumors which basically made every system top 3 prospect on par with Bryant and Russell….I just don’t get it. I don’t get the mentality. I don’t see what people get out of this.

OTOH totally get that the Phillies want something for their players and those players are totally not worth anything scientifically because $/WAR and upside potential ceiling or something. It’s corny at this point but not even the fun kind of corny, there’s a maliciousness to it with a blatant disregard for honesty and perspective. We gain absolutely nothing from garbage like these rumors, especially since context is purposely left out to keep the joke running. It’s a sign of an increasingly petty and dishonest era.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago

Whether or not this particular Revere-Walker rumor is true misses the point, especially given Mr. Sullivan referencing Houston’s “Ground Control” information. We know that front offices make stupid demands, we suspect that it happens a lot and with particular frequency from some general managers, and we can see that sometimes ridiculous offers get accepted.

It’s unlikely that we will ever have enough information to make more than educated guesses, but it would be extremely interesting to see some kind of psychological and behavioral analysis of general managers. I would be interested to know if asking for the moon is common, if it turns off potential trade partners such that they stop communicating with you, and what the precise motivation is for making the initial offer. I wonder if general managers know their peers well enough to understand that making a ridiculous proposal to General Manager X is a smart move because he always wants to haggle, as opposed to General Manager Y who hates it and will be turned off by any suggestion that isn’t somewhat reasonable. I’m assuming that some general managers make ludicrous offers because they’re simply delusional.

Hopefully one of these days some of them write books giving us insight into that level of decision-making.

Future Ruben Amaro
11 years ago

Don’t worry guys, you’ll see my tenacity will pay off in the grand five team trade of 2016…I will then own ALL the prospects…

Oh_No_Not_again
11 years ago

The interesting thing is that negotiations is an art and skill. Jack probably said to Ruben, what do you want for Revere? Which from Jack’s point of view is how you want to start. Now, knowing that Jack’s reputation for negotiations (which is not good), Rubens answer is I would expect. If Ruben had said Ackley, I would have fell on the floor laughing. There are a lot of things to take into consideration when making a trade. The biggest is value for value. You are going to have to give up something to get something. Otherwise other GM’s won’t deal with you. It may not be equal value because of other factors, service, etc. But it still has to be value.

So, from Rubens point of view, if he said Paxton or Walker, he could come down. But if he said Ackley, Paxton or Walker or anyone of that caliber was off the table. From Jack’s point of view he should have countered with probably something above the value of Ackley. Sounds like Jack just hung up the phone.

The other thing about this is that Jack has nothing of value he can give up and make his team better. This is why the best he can do (unless he takes unfair advantage) is a trade like the Trumbo trade. Not a lot of value coming or going and it was not really not going to make either team better.

I once posted as Ruben Amaro
11 years ago

Or it could have just played out that Ruben answered the first question by saying “nothing that you’d be willing to part with”. If Jack then asked who Ruben would want and heard Paxton or Walker, they very well could have just laughed about the lack of a fit and moved on.

But if someone in the M’s front office gave an abbreviated account of the call to some hack writer, it could be translated as “Mariners ask about Revere, Phils want Paxton or Walker”. Two true statements that are just not connected.

Oh_No_Not_again
11 years ago

And you could be right on both accounts. I personally (if you could not already tell) don’t care for either GM. And yes, Dutton is a “hack”.

The expectations for the Mariners were high, as were the writers who thought so. So many things had to fall in place, and they have not. Seems that the local writers are trying everything to keep interest in the team. And there is not much in the minors to look forward to either.

BenRevereDoesSteroids
11 years ago

Remember the Fister/Ray trade, everyone. Thats why teams do this, because every once in a while the other side might actually say “yes”.

Zack Greinke's glorious man bun
11 years ago

I’m not going to skewer Amaro for this, even assuming it’s true. However, if a team does ask for way too much in a trade, is it more

A) A succinct way of saying no
B) Might as well ask for it in case one day someone is crazy enough to say yes (“Hey Billy, yes we’re willing to part with Jeff, but it will cost you Addison Russell. I understand that… oh, yes, that works? Oh, oh yeah great, great. Yes, great doing business with you too”)
C) A psychological tactic to start the bidding at a higher point so that when you ‘settle’ on a good value, it ends up higher than if you started at a lower point.

???

Ben
11 years ago

What to do when you read a silly trade rumor: Enjoy the hell out of it, especially if Ruben Amaro is involved. He won’t be around forever, and we’ll all miss him terribly once he’s gone (except for Phillies fans).

DJ
11 years ago

Trade David Ortiz for a Francona bobblehead or stick of gum. Tired of his years of selfish antics and Panda’s poor defense. Make Panda the new DH and move Holt to 3B.

JD Salinger
11 years ago
Reply to  DJ

I heard the Athletics drafted a catcher named Austin Rei. That makes him the Catcher in the Rye.

Cliff
11 years ago

In fairness to RAJ the Mariners have a long track record of saying “Yes” to offers like that.