What’s in the Cards for the Cards?

St. Louis Cardinals
Joe Puetz-USA TODAY Sports

It’s no longer early. Whether or not one considers the preseason prognostications about the Cardinals being contenders entering the 2023 season to be well or ill-conceived, they’re certainly not contenders now. Reassurances that it was still early in the season no longer work with baseball approaching the halfway point and the All-Star break. Wednesday night’s collapse in the eighth inning against the Astros dropped St. Louis to 33–46, giving the team a four-game cushion in the ignominious contest to be the worst in the NL Central. The only silver lining is a sad one: in a sea of humiliations, nobody notices another bucket being bailed into it. The Cardinals’ playoff chances haven’t actually evaporated completely, but they more reflect the bland mediocrity that covers the division rather than any great merit of the team. For the first time in a long while, “what’s next?” may not be simply “second verse, same as the first.”

To describe the Cardinals in recent decades, I’d personally call them the best of baseball’s conservative franchises. One of the shocking things about the team is just how unbelievably stable and consistent it is. I was in middle school the last time St. Louis lost 90 games in a season (1990); only five living people on the planet were around for the last time the team lost 100. Even just looking at starts rather than entire seasons, this is one of the worst-performing Cardinals squads that anyone alive has watched.

Worst Cardinals Starts, First 79 Games
Year Losses Final Record
1907 61 52-101
1908 50 49-105
1905 50 58-96
1903 50 43-94
1924 49 65-89
1919 49 54-83
1978 48 69-93
1912 48 63-90
1906 48 52-98
1990 47 70-92
1986 46 79-82
1913 46 51-99
2023 46 ??
1909 46 54-98
1995 45 62-81
1980 45 74-88
1976 45 72-90
1918 45 51-78
1938 44 71-80
1916 44 60-93
1910 44 63-90
1902 44 56-78
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference

The franchise has had worst starts, but most of those were in the days of very much yonder. Outside of a possible handful of 105-year-old St. Louis residents, we really only have two Cardinals teams in recent memory that got off to worse starts.

If you’re looking beyond 2023, the Cardinals are in a bit of a pickle. It’s been a long time since they either tore the roster down to its foundations or went whole hog in offseason investment, and they might find themselves in that awkward zone where they’re neither good enough to win now or later. Ken Rosenthal over at The Athletic wrote about this dangerous trap in which they’ve been ensnared, and it’s one of the reasons I’m writing this piece. To quote Ken:

Drafting and developing remains the Cardinals’ specialty. Both The Athletic’s Keith Law and Baseball America ranked their system ninth-best in the majors before the season started. So, if a free-agent splurge is unlikely, why not make a push for even more young talent and move Goldschmidt in addition to the more obvious trade candidates? And if Goldschmidt goes, why not Arenado in the offseason?

Sounds like too much, I know. Mozeliak, in his comments Friday, all but said it would be too much. A team averaging nearly 41,000 at Busch Stadium and profiting greatly from the adjacent Ballpark Village should seriously think twice about ever resembling a tanking club. But if only as a thought exercise, let’s consider how such an idea might play out.

So what I want to do is to test out how viable trying to finesse a Goldilocks strategy would be at this point. Let’s start with some fresh 2024 projections for the Cardinals — that is, the Cardinals who are under contract for 2024 — and try to assemble a team out of them:

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ZiPS Projections – 2024 Cardinals Offense
Player BA OBP SLG AB H 2B 3B HR BB SB OPS+ WAR Pre WAR
Willson Contreras .228 .321 .396 457 104 26 0 17 48 3 100 2.3 3.1
Paul Goldschmidt .267 .358 .456 535 143 32 0 23 71 5 126 3.7 4.3
Nolan Gorman .244 .321 .488 492 120 21 0 33 51 8 123 3.4 2.1
Tommy Edman .257 .316 .396 561 144 31 4 13 40 32 98 3.6 4.2
Nolan Arenado .265 .330 .460 535 142 33 1 23 47 6 119 4.3 5.3
Brendan Donovan .258 .357 .367 461 119 21 1 9 59 9 104 2.5 2.1
Dylan Carlson .253 .331 .421 466 118 28 4 14 49 6 109 2.6 2.5
Lars Nootbaar .232 .343 .436 388 90 21 2 18 64 10 117 2.4 2.1
Tyler O’Neill .246 .319 .443 370 91 17 1 18 34 10 111 2.0 2.4
Player BA OBP SLG AB H 2B 3B HR BB SB OPS+ WAR Preseason Proj
Alec Burleson .272 .318 .437 453 123 21 3 16 30 2 109 2.2 2.2
Jordan Walker .245 .311 .387 519 127 25 2 15 42 8 95 1.6 1.2
Juan Yepez .254 .308 .460 409 104 21 0 21 29 2 112 1.1 1.7
Óscar Mercado .232 .302 .356 379 88 22 2 7 29 24 84 0.8 1.4
Andrew Knizner .223 .292 .343 242 54 11 0 6 19 4 78 0.3 0.6

This is the strong part of the Cardinals; the core is entirely signed for the 2024 season. All six of the team’s MLB free agents are pitchers, with Paul DeJong as the only projected departure here, for the moment, and I don’t think many people reading this will disagree with my notion that his $12.5 million team option will not be picked up.

But even with a solid set of projections, there are cracks showing. As a group, ZiPS sees these players as about three wins worse overall next year than it initially envisioned their 2024 seasons back in March. In other words, even with good projections, there has been some decline in the long-term outlook.

It’s about to get much worse, though; it’s time to look at the pitchers:

ZiPS Projections – 2024 Cardinals Pitching
Player W L ERA IP H ER HR BB SO ERA+ FIP WAR pre WAR
Miles Mikolas 9 7 3.80 146.7 148 62 19 31 107 104 4.14 2.1 1.7
Matthew Liberatore 10 7 3.77 129.0 118 54 14 43 116 105 3.93 1.8 2.1
Michael McGreevy 7 6 3.84 136.0 136 58 14 39 85 103 4.15 1.9 1.6
Dakota Hudson 7 7 4.06 108.7 107 49 11 42 69 97 4.52 1.2 1.6
Connor Thomas 8 7 3.87 128.0 130 55 12 34 81 102 4.09 1.8 1.8
Steven Matz 6 6 4.02 96.3 98 43 13 31 89 98 4.15 1.2 1.3
Gordon Graceffo 7 6 4.17 103.7 98 48 14 31 74 95 4.49 1.1 1.4
Player W L ERA IP H ER HR BB SO ERA+ FIP WAR pre WAR
Ryan Helsley 8 4 3.02 56.7 42 19 6 22 71 131 3.19 1.1 1.0
Giovanny Gallegos 5 4 3.57 58.0 48 23 9 15 64 110 3.84 0.6 0.8
Andre Pallante 5 3 3.53 86.7 82 34 8 31 71 112 3.89 1.4 1.7
Génesis Cabrera 4 3 3.88 62.7 54 27 7 29 61 102 4.24 0.4 0.6
Jake Woodford 5 4 4.15 89.0 90 41 11 31 59 95 4.68 0.7 1.0
Zack Thompson 5 4 4.16 80.0 70 37 9 46 79 95 4.55 0.7 1.1
Guillermo Zuñiga 3 4 4.24 46.7 42 22 6 23 45 93 4.57 0.0 0.1
JoJo Romero 4 3 3.88 60.3 53 26 8 26 65 102 4.11 0.6 0.9
James Naile 4 5 4.13 72.0 73 33 8 25 52 95 4.36 0.5 0.3
Jake Walsh 2 2 4.06 31.0 27 14 4 16 31 97 4.57 0.0 0.1

While the outlook has actually improved slightly for 2024, overall, it’s a group that’s missing the top end. Outside of Helsley, who ZiPS doesn’t even know is out with the dreaded forearm strain, nobody projects to shine. And losing Jordan Montgomery in particular hurts. Let’s put it this way: ZiPS projects Matz to lead the rotation in K/9 in 2024.

Now, if I shift around the playing time to a more realistic allotment, bring in some more reserves, and repeat the process with the other four teams in the NL Central, here’s what I get for 2024 NL Central standings using only players under contract:

ZiPS Projections – 2024 NL Central
Team W L PCT GB
Milwaukee Brewers 83 79 .512 —
Chicago Cubs 82 80 .506 1
St. Louis Cardinals 80 82 .494 3
Cincinnati Reds 79 83 .488 4
Pittsburgh Pirates 77 85 .475 6

That’s 11 games worse than the 2023 projection, and even though the Cardinals won’t literally stand pat, I can’t see them adding 11 wins relative to what the other NL Central teams add this upcoming winter. They probably can’t improve the offense significantly in free agency, short of signing Shohei Ohtani. (They’re not signing Shohei Ohtani in free agency.) Starting pitcher is probably the area that can add the most wins, but the problem is that the pickings look rather thin. There’s also already $125 million committed for 2024, and with arbitration and the various salaries of the team’s various depth pieces, you’re probably looking at around $150–$160 million as the starting point. The team’s ownership group has given no indication that it’s about to go Steve Cohen on free agency; for $35 million, St. Louis couldn’t even keep the team’s current rotation, the one with the 4.81 ERA, intact. The needs on the pitching side are more than a couple of no. 3 starters and a few relief arms.

So in the end, I am forced to agree with Ken’s thesis: the Cardinals no longer fit the necessary requirements to stay their long-term course. It’s not enough to expect the rest of the division to out-mediocre them; whether it’s an aggressive rebuild or an aggressive spending spree, they need to upset the apple cart.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

54 Comments
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CC AFCMember since 2016
3 years ago

(Extremely bfib voice): see? We told you Yadi’s contributions couldn’t be measured! Just look at how the team fell apart without him. Johnny Bench ain’t got nothing on Yadi.

RMD4
3 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

For real, for real… I’d put the Cardinals imploded immediately after he retired on his HoF plaque.

bernardgilkeyhasaposseMember since 2019
3 years ago

I miss the days when our beloved el Birdos could merit another puff piece.

snakestl
3 years ago

This is a great piece, Dan. As a BFIB old enough to remember 1986 and 1990 it is really nice to have another season on that podium. Really appreciate it more now as a 46 year old than I did at 9 and 13.

This team is, perhaps finally, stuck in the middle.

Louie FetchMember since 2016
3 years ago

Looks like an error with the Jordan Walker projection

DBA455Member since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

I am having a hard time figuring out what to make of Nolan Gorman. A month ago he looked like a world-beater – and he’s been absolutely dreadful since then (the worst hitter in baseball on a wOBA basis).

So maybe that’s what he is – a high-K, all or nothing, massively high-variance batter.

Kevbot034
3 years ago
Reply to  DBA455

Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head there. He really can slug though, and he’s worked himself into an averageish 2B (by DRS and OAA, not UZR), so he maybe stays valuable ish.

peakedinhighschool
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

Yeah, he is a monster when he actually connects. I think he will end up being a 25-35 homer 120 ops+ guy with low obp high slg. idk though

leftycurve66
3 years ago

To me the best option is to take some of their expiring pieces, and trade them off for prospects

Then focus on starting pitching through trade in the off season. With some of their prospects they have and could yield from trades of Flaherty, Montgomery and Hicks, they could turn those into a couple of quality starting pitchers.

Yepez, Baker, Burleson are redundant. They need to trade any two of the three for bullpen arms. As much talk of the starting pitching being bad, the weak underbelly is that bullpen. It has been horrific.

The offense is pretty solid and should be again next season. But the rotation desperately needs at least 1 high level arm. I’d look at a team that has pitching but needs young offensive players (I’d really go after Shane Bieber or Jesus Lazardo, they need to add Ks to that rotation).

Also, they need to figure out a position for Jordan Walker. If they don’t have plans of resigning Goldschmidt, than let Walker split time with him at first and DH next season, so he can get more familiar with fielding that position.

Last edited 3 years ago by leftycurve66
Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

Although I wish I was wrong, I highly doubt you could turn a couple months of Montgomery, Hicks, and Flaherty into “a couple of quality starting pitchers.” Montgomery has been a pretty solid #3 and Flaherty more like a #4 (and a volatile one with a recent injury history). Hicks of course has all-world stuff, and has been great for a couple months, but he still has a pretty high walk rate, and his track record of success is not terribly long. These are useful guys to be sure, and the Cards will likely get some reasonable prospects for them. But I don’t think potential playoff teams will give up starters who will be ready to contribute in 2024.

leftycurve66
3 years ago

I’m not saying them alone can turn into an ace starter, but let’s say you get a couple of solid prospects for them, and then with the prospects the Cardinals already have, they can turn those into packages for more long term answers at starting pitching. A team in a pennant race that needs a starter I can definitely see giving up a top 10 prospect in their system for Monty. You may be able to get two other top 15-20 prospect in a teams system for both Flaherty and Hicks. Now if you bundle those guys you get back from them along with Herrera, Hjerp, and a few other guys who may not be prospects but are still young (maybe Carlson), I can see them being able to get at least 1 front line starter and another secondary guy who is at least durable and mid rotation level.

Last edited 3 years ago by leftycurve66
Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

I see what you’re saying, leftycurve. I thought your meant readymade quality starters as opposed to quality starter prospects. I agree with you there, but 2 problems with that scenario:

1) I’m all for acquiring assets who can help the team in 2025, 2026 and beyond, but by then Goldschmidt’s contract has expired, Arenado (who is noticeably slowing down, esp in the field) is well into his mid-30’s, and the window may be closing on the team’s veteran core.

2) The Cards’ organization has not been good lately at turning starting pitching prospects into quality major leaguers. They got some occasional glimmers of success out of Flaherty, and that’s about it. Like, don’t you have a feeling that if Liberatore had stayed with the Rays he’d be a steadier starter at this point?

I’m not saying the team shouldn’t trade Monty, Hicks, and Flaherty this year and take what they can get. I’m just saying I’m not sure if what they get will be contributors to the Cards’ next playoff team.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I think that with relatively few starters who can pitch in the playoffs available this trade deadline (E-Rod, maybe Giolito, probably not Bieber) you might get more for Montgomery than expected. He’s been pitching very well, more like a #2 than a #3 (on pace for a little over 4 wins). I don’t have a clear idea of what sort of prospect that would come back, and nobody seems to want to trade pitching these days. Maybe they could get someone like Jake Eder or Max Meyer and hope for a rebound. Or maybe a guy a very long way from the majors like JR Ritchie or Spencer Schwellenbach.

Hicks and Flaherty probably aren’t getting much back, though.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, Monty’s pitched like a 2 since he came back from TJS.

8.0 WAR in 427 innings, by both FIP and RA9.

bh216Member since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

If they play their cards right (pun intended), this year could be a minor blip on the radar. They have a lot of valuable trade chips on the position player front that they could flip for pitching.

Bieber seemed like a great fit for the Cards in the off-season, but with the team out of contention and Bieber being a free agent after next year, it seems less likely. They could trade for and extend him, but his strong track record with alarming/declining peripherals make his value difficult to judge and might make an acquiring team gun shy on locking him up.

Maybe the Cards could swing a Moreno/Varsho like trade. They flip one of their young, quality position players (maybe Donovan, Edman, or Nootbaar) for a young pitcher.

Pair a couple savy trades with a FA pitcher signing, and I can talk myself into this pitching staff being good enough to win the division next year when paired with a good offense.

Last edited 3 years ago by bh216
airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  bh216

What would Donovan, Edman, or Nootbaar really bring back in a trade? I don’t think they are getting a 60FV prospect (Moreno) or a potential 4 WAR player (Varsho).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

I would tend to agree with you, aside from the fact that there’s no way they’re getting good prospects for anyone except Montgomery.

Aside from that, I think this is the right move overall. This team isn’t great but have you seen the NL Central lately? The only team with a positive run differential this year is the Cubs. Only being 3 games back in a projection from the Brewers is actually a very good situation because they have clear and defined holes (starting pitching!). If they can bring back Montgomery and sign one of Giolito or E-Rod they would have a subpar rotation but it would be good enough to survive in a playoff series. Maybe they have to free up some salary in order to do that but I think it would make sense.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
leftycurve66
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Exactly how I see it. I thought of Giolito as a good replacement too, he would definitely fit as a mid rotation guy that can help solidify them for next season, and they would only have to spend money not prospects. I think their biggest issue is they lack at least 1 high end starter. They need to focus heavily on someone that can lead a rotation. Because even if they bounce back next year, which is likely, they’d just be fodder in a playoff series. The entire bullpen needs revamping too. Helsley is the only good arm under contract passed this season.

And they definitely need to declutter that outfield and DH slot. There’s about 6-7 guys for 4 positions. They can turn those into assets where they need help whether it’s the bullpen or rotation.

jakelee
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If you are looking looking at the NL Central “lately”, maybe ought to look to the future. If you think the Reds and Pirates are going to look the same personel wise at the end of June ‘24 as they do right now, you might want to reevaluate the Cardinals situation.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  jakelee

They’re not that good right now. Virtually every hitter on the Reds is getting very lucky with BABIP. Their value at the plate will likely drop collectively in 2024 even if they get better with underlying skills, and they’re still running a negative run differential and BaseRuns on the year despite all of that. At some point, yes, they will be on the upswing but there is a reason why ZiPS projects them to have a losing record in 2024. And while the Pirates haven’t gotten nearly as lucky with BABIP as the Reds have, it’s still a below-.500 team with negative run differentials and BaseRuns record that is projected to do roughly the same thing next year.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

“I’d really go after Shane Bieber or Jesus Lazardo, they need to add Ks to that rotation.”

If they need to add K’s, Bieber ain’t it.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I don’t think there’s a lot the Cardinals can do right now. They need to figure out if they’re going to make a serious run at keeping Montgomery, and if so they need to assess whether trading him will hurt that endeavor. Aside from that, their most interesting players are either under team control for a very long time and are difficult to justify trading (Edman, Walker, Nootbaar, Donovan, etc) or they have no-trade clauses (Goldschmidt, Arenado). Nobody is going to beat down the door to take deJong (contract), Mikolas (contract), Flaherty (inconsistency), Carlson (mostly because they’ve been yo-yo-ing his role all over the place), Contreras (see Carlson), O’Neill (hurt and underperforming), Yepez (taken step back), Burleson (see Yepez), Helsley (hurt), Matz (underperforming), Gallegos (underperforming)…

If for some reason they can convince Arenado and/or Goldschmidt to waive their no-trade clauses then they have some tough decisions to make but since that seems unlikely, it’s probably just them looking for new homes for Flaherty, Hicks, and Stratton and probably Montgomery. Only the last one will bring back significant talent, although I suppose they’ll probably get prospects of some kind for the others. I personally would consider seeing if I could dump Contreras (maybe to the Padres?), deJong, and Matz if anyone would take literally any part of his salary to free up some money for next year. Hopefully that would allow them to bring back Montgomery and also make a run at a guy like Giolito or E-Rod when they become free agents. Or extend Edman, Nootbaar, etc.

tdouglas
3 years ago

Even if everything went as expected in 2023, this was clearly a two-year window for the reasons stated above. The front office never pushes their chips in for one season and aren’t gonna go big in the offseason. The farm system seems to be worse than Law thinks (Fangraphs has them as below-average). They really needed their pitching prospects to step up this season, and they didn’t.

Selling and building for 2025 makes the most sense, but the front office will likely try to compete with the current roster. It’s not gonna work, especially when their payroll keep dropping compared to the league (16th-highest is a joke). At the very least, selling this year and re-tooling for 2024 makes sense. Montgomery would bring back at least one interesting prospect, and between Dejong/O’Neill/Gallegos/Hicks/Stratton/Verhagen, they might get one or two wild cards. Dejong is having a surpringly decent season and could have a few teams interested, and the bullpen arms could all find homes on playoff teams, even if they’d be the last righty on the totem pole in those pens.

Trading Goldschmidt would obviously be a significant boost to the future, assuming he would accept a trade. I think teams will be unwilling to acquire Arenado and his contract — would you want to pay him $30 million for many years if his defense is league average or below now? I also don’t think he’d accept a trade.

Last edited 3 years ago by tdouglas
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

The real elephant in the room is what they’re going to do with Willson Contreras and Dylan Carlson. They have not been shy about signaling that Carlson is not their starting center fielder, which I find really weird. He’s their best defensive center fielder (except for maybe Edman, who appears to simply be the best defensive player at whatever position he plays at) but they’ve given him less than a third of the innings in CF so far this year and playing him about a third of the time in right field (where he is not good). And they still haven’t really resolved anything with Willson Contreras. His rCERA still isn’t great and his framing looks like it has not been good since he has been back in the starting catching role, and they really do not need another DH, and his bat has not been good enough to support DH’ing lately anyway.

What’s their plan for these guys? Are they just going to keep jerking them around? I still think they could maybe dump most or all of Contreras’s contract on San Diego. And there are a lot of teams that could use a center fielder, including the Dodgers and Phillies. But are they going to sell low on them?

tdouglas
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I wouldn’t call those elephants. They’ll just keep Contreras and either keep Carlson or dump him for nothing. I think it would take Contreras requesting a trade for them to try and move him. The front office likes to play poorer than they really are, so they aren’t gonna eat any money just to get rid of a player. Statcast thinks he has been super unlucky offensively, and while a poor defender, he’s good enough to stay at the position. They have been vocal about hating Ivan Herrera’s defense and game calling, so if they trade Contreras, they are back to square one in needing a catcher. Contreras is gonna be around for the long haul.

If they take the bold steps towards a two-year rebuild, then sure, finding Contreras a new home makes a ton of sense. That kind of selling hasn’t been done in STL in decades, though, so I’ll need to see it before I believe it.

Famous Mortimer
3 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

I’m not sure that the Padres would want him, 6 months into a contract that they could have matched themselves, and underperforming too.

JupiterBrandoMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Conteras and $20 million in cash to the Padres for Ryan Weathers?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

Austin Nola too!

Mean Mr. Mustard
3 years ago

If I remember right, those poor teams from the late 80’s and early 90’s were the first few post-Herzog years. Then Gilkey, Lankford, Zeile, etc graduated them back into mediocrity for awhile.

bernardgilkeyhasaposseMember since 2019
3 years ago

That Gilkey/Lankford/Brian Jordan OF was sure fun to watch, when I sneaked over to a dorm that had cable.

Gilkey first and foremost, obviously.

Original Greaser Bob
3 years ago

Besided non-prospects that turn into 2WAR roll players, who have the Cardinals developed in the last 10 years? Certainly not any pitchers that I can recall.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I was going to reply with Matt Carpenter, but it turns out he was more than 10 years ago. And Harrison Bader had so many injuries I’m not sure you can say him either.

Tommy Edman had over 5 wins last season, so that was pretty good. Tommy Pham was shockingly good for a very short period of time. Nootbaar looks like he might be a star (although not a superstar).

The pitching development has been abysmal.

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Tbf Pham has a 126wRC+ this year, and his batted ball data has him absolutely mashing. 3 outfielders w over 94mph avg ev. Judge, Acuna, Pham. Injuries have long been a concern but I could see him even at 36 next year getting a 1-2 year contract. I remember thinking preseason that he could end up being the odd man out against rhp, and he has hit well enough that it’s the other guys who are the odd man out. Nimmo has a 131wrc, Alonso 129, Pham 127, Lindor 109.

Last edited 3 years ago by carter
tdouglas
3 years ago

Not much, but they also never get to draft any stud prospects. The draft quality rapidly declines after the top five players, then again after the top 10-15. They’ve tried drafting players who fall to them, with mixed success: complete failure with Delvin Perez, decent success with Nolan Gorman, and huge success with Jordan Walker. And they probably deserve some credit for Adolis Garcia, Randy Arozarena, Zac Gallen, and Sandy Alcantara.

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
3 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

They get a free comp pick each year for some reason (I know the reason, but it is ridiculous), so they actually get more opportunities to draft first-round caliber players.

tdouglas
3 years ago

Those comp picks are well after the best players are taken, and I don’t think they’ve qualified for a competitive balance pick in a long time, anyway.

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago

The Cardinals don’t get a competitive balance pick every year. And I know you said you know the reason, but I’m not sure why you think it’s ridiculous. The pick is meant to compensate for market size (considering market size is the biggest driver of broadcast revenue), and the Cardinals play in the 24th largest market in MLB – smaller than Cleveland, smaller than Miami, smaller than even non-MLB cities like Raleigh-Durham and Sacramento. (Whatever the case, the Cards have never picked a notable player with this pick anyway, so it’s not some great largesse to the team.)

JupiterBrandoMember since 2020
3 years ago

For all the hand-wringing about the poor roster construction of the Mets and Padres—which are poor, to be fair—the Cardinals take the cake. This is a team that had the opportunity to unload a glut of their 1-2 WAR outfielders for Juan Soto, or anyone else really, and instead chose to stand pat, and now they have a roster logjam in which every one of those players has diminished their trade value. They managed to get hit by the world’s slowest moving train in broad daylight.

And yet they have all these guys competing for jobs because they traded away Randy Arozarena and let Adolis Garcia go for nothing, and that’s after trading the reigning Cy Young winner and a possible future one for Marcell Ozuna, so it’s not clear they even know how to value outfielders in the first place. Or pitchers, for that matter.

The only talents they seem to be able to accurately evaluate are middle infielders.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

I don’t think the Mets have poor roster construction exactly. They are showing the pitfalls of trying to hire as many older players through free agency as possible. But the alternative to that was just not having corner outfielders or pitchers. It’s inefficient roster construction and it hasn’t worked out at all this year but it’s not like signing deGrom, Correa, Bogaerts, or Rodon would have helped them this year. And it’s not like signing Freeman made since with Alonso at first base, nor signing Swanson with Lindor at shortstop.

The Padres, on the other hand, have at least three shortstops, are playing Jake Cronenworth at first base, got bailed out of having zero major league quality catchers by claiming Gary Sanchez off of waivers, and are praying that none of their starters get hurt and that Michael Wacha and Seth Lugo don’t turn back into pumpkins at midnight.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

Some of these things are more understandable than others. Randy Arozarena surprised everyone, and Adolis Garcia took a long road to becoming who he is today. But the Ozuna trade was an incredible own-goal. That’s going to go down as one of the worst trades in this century. Maybe it’s not as bad as giving away Fernando Tatis Jr or Yordan Alvarez but it’s probably at least as bad as the infamous Chris Archer trade, and definitely worse than the Yelich trade.

I do wonder what they were thinking rolling into the season with all of Walker, Nootbaar, O’Neill, Carlson, Burleson, Yepez, and Gorman at the same time. But if they had to do it all over again they would have probably traded O’Neill, Carlson, Burleson, and Yepez. That’s probably not going to get you a lot, but the Marlins and Rangers were dying for outfielders so you never know.

Famous Mortimer
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

There was probably an element of “if they all perform at the top of their expectations, we’ll be fine”.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago

“if they all perform at the top of their expectations, we’ll be fine”

File under “and if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass a-hoppin'”

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

It’s weird to think that the potential three best outfielders the Cards could have all play for other teams: Arozarena, Bader, and Garcia, and they still have like seven outfielders on the team.

JoeyVottoIsGoneMember since 2016
3 years ago

That’s a shame.

johndarc
3 years ago

The Cards won’t make moves because they don’t have to make moves. It’s a mediocre division with everyone trying to just slightly out-mediocre each other. Nobody is splurging or spending big or challenging the status quo. The Cards are terrible and still have a fighting chance. That’s how bad it is. The Brewers made their moves years ago with the Cain and Yelich contracts and won the divisions pretty well, but they’re gonna let their pitching walk.

bhss
3 years ago

Could this be a situation of worst case scenario? Could it be going bad for everyone at the same time? Do we have too many guys that get nervous and back down? Would a Billy Martin type manager shake things up? There are a lot of very quiet guys on this team. Yadi could put a chip on his shoulder when needed and I don’t see one of those guys out there now.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  bhss

I don’t know exactly how much blame to lay at the feet of a manager but it sure seems to me like the Cardinals have had a weird number of controversies this year that could have been avoided. It also has been quite a while since anyone has been brought in from outside the organization and it might not be a bad idea to hire someone and see what the rest of the league is doing. Whether that means they need a new manager or not, I don’t know. You could solve those with a new guy elsewhere and a bit more coordination. But I wouldn’t rule it out entirely.

Jeremy FoxMember since 2017
3 years ago

Hmm. I don’t buy that the Cardinals either have to blow it up or go all in, because otherwise they’re condemned to be mediocre next year. I definitely don’t buy that, if they don’t either go all in or blow it up, they’ll be trapped in mediocrity for years.

I don’t buy it because there’s variance around the mean projection. Thanks to that variance, the Cardinals surely have some non-tiny chance of making the playoffs next year, even if they don’t trade away any key pieces or sign any big name free agents. Same is even more true beyond next season–the variance only gets bigger, the further in the future you project.

Arguments that team X “has” to adopt team-building strategy Y usually should be taken with a large grain of salt, I think. For instance, a couple of years ago, lots of smart people (and not-smart casual fans like me) thought that the Rangers were making a mistake trying to accelerate their rebuild by spending big on top free agents. The view was that the team had too many holes, and would continue to have too many holes, for those signings to make sense. And now look–the team’s in first place, with a projected 80% chance of making the playoffs. Not so long ago, lots of smart people ripped the Reds for tearing down a competitive team rather than adding to it in free agency. Arguing that the Reds were condemning themselves to years of being terrible. And now all of a sudden the Reds’ near-term future looks pretty bright. Lots of other examples.

Yes, I know the cliche that hope is not a plan. But when all plans have very uncertain outcomes, all plans include an awful lot of hope. And so it’s very hard to tell which plan requires the least amount of hope in order to work.

I’m not saying that the Cardinals definitely should stand pat. I’m saying, it’s not clear what they should do.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Fox

I still think they have a chance to make the playoffs this year…if they fire marmol.

The NL Central is a dumpster fire this year.

leftycurve66
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Fox

This is very well stated. Any time you try to project too far into the future with Baseball, you usually will be proven wrong. The idea that it’s rebuild or go crazy with spending in order to escape mediocrity is a false dilemma. There’s many paths they can take that doesn’t require a complete break in philosophy.

jcarpe14Member since 2017
3 years ago

What to make of this current team? Hard to say, for one, they aren’t THAT bad are they? Is this one of those seasons that nothing goes as it should( these seasons can happen-look at the 1986 Cardinals) .it is a little biased to say the Yadi made that big of a difference. Or are we looking at a team of small changes that add up to bigger issues -such as: a pitch to contact pitching staff that is doesn’t have the “shift” to help defensively. A more balanced schedule certainly hasn’t helped, St. Louis is a club that now plays central foes less. Edman looks good in center, but would be better at second . St. Louis has a glut of hit only players -like Gorman , and Jordan Walker. Jordan’s reads and routes may improve over time, right now, he is costing STL more runs with his glove than his bat helps. So a strikeout pitcher would help tremendously, and a bullpen that has a WHIP below 1.50 , which is the next issue, can a bullpen, which is essentially the same as 2022 really be this bad? Yadi certainly helped, but his absence can’t make stl pitchers that bad . While I’m not one of those “ trade home tram castoffs for star players “ guys, and someone will always pen the “tear it down “ idea, guarantees aren’t always in the prospects received. And the franchise has always prided itself in not tearing down. So who knows? I bet executives do and it will be interesting so see what , if anything happens

snakestl
3 years ago

Been thinking more about this, I guess the comp is the 99-00 offseason when they added Darryl Kile, Dave Veres, Andy Benes, Fernando Vina, Jim Edmonds, Mike Matheny and Pat Hentgen and went from 75 wins to 95 wins.

Different times, I realize.