Who Should Catch?
A lot of you are pretty passionate about Bryce Harper’s future position. In Tuesday’s post, where I suggest that moving Harper to the outfield is in the best interests of the game, people raised the question of whether every catcher who can hit should be moved to another position to preserve their offensive abilities. Given that I’ve argued that the Twins have made the right decision to keep Joe Mauer behind the plate for now, I figured I should clarify my position on just who should catch at the big league level.
I believe that most players have, at any given time, a natural position that is the best fit for their overall skillset. Long striders who can cover ground and throw should play center fielder, where their physical abilities can be maximized. Stocky left-handed throwers with limited speed should play first base. None of this is revolutionary. Players should be, and usually are, put at positions where their strengths are magnified and their weaknesses hidden.
Using Mauer as an example, his physical skills include below average speed, a rocket arm, and good footwork. Additionally, he’s generally given off-the-charts reviews for his leadership abilities and communication skills. Regardless of how much offensive ability Mauer had, those abilities profile perfectly behind the plate. It is not just the position where he has the most offensive value, but the position where his defensive abilities are maximized as well. It’s a natural fit for his skills. He should be a catcher, not just because his bat makes him a rare commodity, but because his defensive profile fits the position.
It’s not always so cut and dry, of course. Take Jayson Werth, for example. Coming up through Baltimore’s farm system, he offered potential as an offensive minded catcher with a bat that would have been well above average for the position. However, he was not very good behind the plate, as his footwork left a lot to be desired. At best, he would have been below average defensively as a catcher. His athleticism, however, plays very well in the outfield, where he’s become one of the better defensive corner guys in the game. He has the physical skillset of an outfielder, and the Blue Jays made the right decision to move him out from behind the plate in 2003.
Harper is much more Werth than Mauer as an athlete. He runs well and has the abilities to become a plus defensive corner outfielder. He would need a lot of work to be even average behind the plate, and the time and effort required for him to get to that level would take away from the development of the rest of his game. Like Werth, Harper has a chance to be an asset defensively in the outfield, while few project him to be anything more than a liability behind the plate. The difference in defensive performance could easily make up for the scarcity issue, and that’s without getting into the benefit that his offense would receive from not catching.
I am not arguing that every single good hitting catcher should be moved. Mauer belongs behind the plate (for now). Brian McCann is playing the correct position for his skills. Matt Wieters should stay behind the plate, as should Kurt Suzuki. Bryce Harper, though, profiles better in the outfield.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
This article makes a lot more sense than your previous one about this subject. The statistical argument trumps the moral one.
But he’s Dave Cameron, and won’t cop to being out of line.
And you’re “Blah,” who won’t even cop to a name.
Dave produces readible, entertaining, free content. Sometimes he’s controversial and provocative, but that sometimes adds to the entertainment value, too.
It’s not my blog. Being anonymous as a commenter isn’t exactly murder.
Dave, it seems you don’t see defensive ability falling cleanly along the James defensive spectrum. Do you think each of the 8 positions has its own unique skill profile, or are there groups. If the latter, how would divvy them up? Would you use a combination with a hierarchy within a few basic profiles?
On the contrary, I think what he’s saying is still within the bounds of traditional thinking. There are a number of players who are below-average catchers (a hard position) but above-average corner outfielders (eg. Werth, apparently Harper), or above-average corner infielders (eg. Brandon Inge). Obviously it’s not cut-and-dry – for instance, Carl Crawford is an above-average center fielder but he would never make a good 3rd baseman, an “easier position”, because he’s left-handed. But I think the general point – how some players who are below-average catchers should be moved to a corner outfield position – still goes along with traditional logic.
I’m confused. Most of what I’ve read say Harper’s a good defensive catcher. Where is this data coming from?
I think I remember reading some positive reports too. I’d be grateful if someone could link to a few defensive reviews of him.
mauer has below average speed?
He’s probably below average for an outfielder. For a catcher, he runs very well.
Dave might mean “below-average” in general. I agree with Mike K., he has above-average speed for a catcher, but below-average in the outfield. Also, his career Speed Score is 4.2, which is below the average (or median, I’m not sure of the appropriate term to use here) of 5.
I’m not sure I would use speed score as a great measure, if 5 is the average then in 2010 only 57 players have average or better speed, and in 2009 only 49 players had average or better speed.
He’s certainly faster than most catchers, but that’s not saying much when the likes of your competition is bengie molina and rod barajas.
Joe Mauer, top football recruit? Lacks athleticism?
I think the point is that Harper has the ability to be a plus outfielder–depending on how much weight you want to put into the Werth comp, that could mean a +10-20 UZR. Mauer would likely be average at best in the outfield.
Let’s assume that Harper is a +10 defender in the corners, but a slightly below average catcher at -2 runs. The positional difference between catcher and a corner outfielder is -20. So the switch to the outfielder costs 12 runs, but Harper could pick up those runs by playing more games and having a higher wOBA from fresher knees.
My biggest complaint is that they made the decision without giving him ANY pro instruction. I would think if they could get him into a winter-program, maybe extended ST next summer, and work with him. Get a better handle on how quickly he can learn the nuances of catching professionaly.
Perhaps Washington is alreayd comfortable that he can’t catch. It just doesn’t seem that way. I’d at least want to get him some time catching in the minors before giving up on it.
I think there’s some important info we aren’t privy to, Mike K. I think there’s at least a 50/50 chance that Harper and his agent are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the move to the outfield. If that was the case, we wouldn’t know it, because everyone involved would want the Nationals to present it as if it was the team’s decision.
The real money for a player of Harper’s talent is to be made in free agency, not in that first signing bonus. I think his camp is angling for him to earn those six years of free agency by age 25, A-Rod style.
The best path to do that is in an outfielder corner.
I think Harper will sign in July, and actually get in a month of games this summer in low-A. If he does well, the Nats can confidently start him in high-A in 2011 as an 18 year-old.
From there, Harper could have an incredible, A-Rod-in-1994 season. A-Rod flew through A, AA, and AAA en route to a late season callup with Seattle in ’94.
If Harper does that, and if he sticks in the big leagues for good from Opening Day, he reaches free agency at age 25 after the 2017 season, just after his end-of-the-regular-season birthday on October 1st.
I think his camp has at least THOUGHT of that scenario. I think he’s desirous to reach the big leagues quick, cognizant of the money that he can make if he’s a young free agent.
Sorry, left out an important word figure. Should read:
“If Harper sticks in the bigs from Opening Day 2012, he reaches FA just after turning 25 at the end of the 2017 season.”
This feels eminently like you are continuing to try to come up with new arguments, any arguments, regardlessness of how spurious they are, to support your assertion.
I personally could be convinced either way, but after the last two hammerings you took on this subject, it’s as if you feel you have been backed into a corner. In this case i actually find this post the worst of your efforts, largely because the scouting data on harper is mixed at worst for him.
The fact is that the best argument against him catching is that being a catcher is hard on the body in games, and you simply can’t play as many games as a catcher. an extra 20 points of woba and ~=120 more plate appearances for an elite level player might be worth it to stay in the outfield, its pretty close to the break even for sure.
We also have to see how harper develops. If he isnt a lock to hit 280/360/500 in the outfield, or a near-lock, then losing that extra 20 points of woba might not be so bad if he plays catcher.
anyway, it’s a close call for sure. we wont ever know the right answer of course which is part of what makes baseball fun.
Great post, Dave. I like that you’re not just taking the defensive spectrum road. The less I hear about Mauer moving out from behind the plate the better, though. The subject is tiresome, to say the least 😉
@Blah – No, it is not murder. But it is a bit spinless to fling dung with a balaclava on.
One of the most important aspects of catching is lower body type … Having a solid base and leverages that places the stress on hips and upper legs rather than the knees. Some guys can squat behind the plate better and longer than others without I’ll effects. Yadi, Pudge, and Bench were “made to catch”.
As I like to say, they didn’t choose to catch, catching chose them.
It’s very similar to strength-training where some guys just have all the right leverages for squatting and so for long periods of time without knee problems. Then you have guys like me that were born to Pitch, run long distance, or play volleyball.
And guys like me, who were born to play MLB the Show and OOTP.
Has anyone ever looked at this from the player’s point of view? What I mean is that if I am a player and I want to maximize my earnings, am I better off staying behind the plate or going into the outfield?
I haven’t done any analysis, but my gut says that even though you get a little bump at catcher for playing a premium bump, you may end up leaving money on the table because your career won’t last as long and the premium position thing doesn’t really translate into a lot of extra dollars.
I’m pretty sure he was ranked a potential 70 on arm strength on the scouts scale, but his defensive ability was ranked below that.
I’m trying to find the evaluation done by Keith Law, but I’m failing to place it.
Dave, with 100% hindsight, would you have moved Piazza away from catcher early in his career?
No. He didn’t have the physical skills to be a defensive asset anywhere. He was going to be below average no matter where he played on the field, and he could fake it at catcher well enough to make it worth it to keep him back there.
If he had been a better athlete and could have played average or better at, say, third base, though, then the answer would be yes. The extra quantity of playing time (he only got 600 PA in a season four times) and the bump in relative defensive performance would have wiped out the difference in scarcity.
Agree
Is scarcity considered in positional adjustments? I was wondering about that during the various discussions of Harper’s value in RF v. C.
On the other side of the coin, if you can catch and stay reasonably healthy, you can stay in the game a long, long time. Veteran catchers seem to always get a contract somewhere.
But I doubt Harper is thinking about his career at age 36.
Catching is hard, dirty and not very glamorous, except to coaches, firmer pitchers, and sabermaticians.
My guess is Harper doesn’t want to catch, his agent does not want him to catch, and he has the ability and talent not to.
I’m kinda surprised that Pujols was not a catcher in JuCo and instead played SS.
IIRC, the accepted positional adjustment for catchers is +12.5 runs per 700 PA vs. -7.5 runs per 700 PA for a right fielder. Let’s assume that Harper will get 650 PA as a RF and 500 PA as a catcher, that means the difference in positional adjustment will be ~16 runs.
So for you to want to move Harper off of catcher you would have to believe that he will be a better defensive right fielder than catcher (which sounds right, but I wouldn’t not think it would be in the vicinity of 16 runs a season), his hitting will be better as a right fielder than as a catcher (again, that sounds right but the difference will not be 16 runs a season) and the chance of injury will be less as a right fielder than as a catcher.
It seems perfectly possible that a combination of those factors could negate the 16 run difference in positional value, but I find it to believe that it will greatly exceed it so that he is better off at right field than at catcher. On the other hand if he’s able to work on his defense to the point where he is average at catcher and the injury risk/effect on his hitting is minimal, he is much more valuable at catcher.
Tango’s studies found the catcher hitting penalty to be about -10 runs per season. So, he doesn’t have to be that much better defensively in RF than he would be behind the plate to negate it. Werth is the perfect example – probably a -5 catcher, but a +10 corner outfielder. Not saying Harper will be that good defensively, but it’s pretty easy to imagine a 6+ run swing for a guy with good speed and bad footwork.
Is there not an opportunity for splitting the baby in half? Wouldn’t Harper provide enormous value as a #2 catcher and starting RF? I realize teams are often against moving their best players around, but 30-40 games a year behind the plate plus 110-120 games in RF would maximize value.
Harper’s ETA to the majors should not be delayed, and he would have an opportunity to develop behind the plate. Just a thought.
Whoever mentioned the player’s preference above is right on the money. Unless you love catching or that is the only way for you to have a major league job or a major league starting job, you simply don’t want to catch. For one thing, your health is continually miserable, for another, your career may be shortened, for another, your hitting will suffer each year, and finally, since teams do not understand positional adjustments, and teams way overrate slugging corner outfielders and first baseman, if you are a good hitter, you absolutely want to eschew catching for playing any other position, especially corner OF and first base, if it is at all possible. If I am a super-prospect hitter and a catcher and the team that drafts me says, “We are thinking about moving you to another position,” before they get the last word out my answer is, “Great idea!”
Lots of players have the skills and ability to catch. Not everyone has the willingness to don the armor in 95 degree weather day and day out. Catching loses it’s luster once you take a few tips off the forearms or a sinker off the toe or a … You get the idea.
How Pudge Rodriguez caught all those games in Texas heat and humidity is beyond me.
Steroids!
Hey, it’s the blanket answer for everything ever, right?
Without getting all “Dusty Baker” about it, being raised in a hot climate probably didn’t hurt. I don’t know much about Pudge’s nightlife habits … But avoiding alcohol goes a long way to minimizing the effects of dehydration. *grin*
Unfortunately, given the team he played on (Canseco, Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez), there is some smoke there.
Still Ivan is a ‘dirtbag’ and I use that word in the baseball sense, where it’s a major compliment. I just have an immense respect for catchers, especially the ones that block pitches with a big lead/deficit. That of course removes AJ from consideration.
Watching catchers operate is my biggest enjoyment ofMLB baseball. The good ones do so many things that go unnoticed. Thankfully, as a Cards fan I get to watch Yadi.
I do hope you didn’t take my comment as a serious questioning of Pudge. I was more mocking the convention among some to blame steroids for every abnormality. I know that stuff has swirled about him for quite some time, but I don’t like dealing in that kind of conjecture.
If anything, wouldn’t greenies help you more there? I know it’s been said that they’re what keep guys in day games after night games, etc., but would that also help with the additional burden of catching? I don’t know – I haven’t caught since I was 10. Anybody know if they would have the requisite effect there?
I’ve read somewhere (I can’t remember where) that Chipper Jones was a better defensive SS than a 3B as a young man.
There may have been an injury involved – he’s had his share of those – but I thought there was also some analysis that his range was better than his reaction time, or something like that.
Despite the logic of the defensive spectrum, there are specific skills to each position that may not translate so directly to a linear scale. It’s an interesting thing to think about.
Thanks for bringing it up, Dave.
My buddies that have taken PED’s report that the big difference is not so much the increase in strength as it is recovery (duh). They said workouts that would normally require consecutive days rest to recover could now be done on consecutive days if desired.
In that regard, the more intense workouts you can string together, the bigger and stronger you become. Now, if you weren’t working out on that day, you’d still be refreshed. The problem eventually becomes that joints don’t recover as fast as muscle, so you invite a serious injury.
Now, for baseball the non-strength/mass benefits are obvious. Like Canseco stated “You can be at your peak all season long.” That’s about the only Canseco quote I use. That’s why middle relievers were among the most numerous. Users of PERs, you get to a point where the mind is willing, but the body isn’t.
Contrary to popular perception, steroid users generally are not lazy … They’re ofen just the opposite, guys that are fanatic about working out and intensely … So when the body cannot keep up with the mind, they look for help for their body. It’s also why lots of guys use PEDs coming off an injury, they simply cannot function being out of theirroutine or on the shelf.
When I hear of an elite athlete that “outworks” other elite athletes, PEDs are one ofmy first thoughts. The body is only capable of so much.
I have no idea whether Pudge used or didn’t, I only know that he and Bench seem to be in a class to themselves when it comes to catchers.
Fwiw, my buddies that used Prs were guys that had trained for 15-20 years, and were in their early 30s and could not tolerate not being able to handle the workloads that they did when they were 25. The shit works as intended, which is why certain athletes risk everything to use them.
Craig Biggio was an all star catcher before he was moved to 2d base. Astros’ management was reluctant to move him to 2d base, because they liked having a plus-offensive player at catcher. However, their reasoning for moving him to 2d base was based on potential damage to his speed from squatting every game and the ability to concentrate on his offense more if he didn’t play catcher. I think it has turned out that Biggio’s best position is 2d base. If Harper has the potential to be a rare offensive player, I could also see the Nationals concluding that Harper’s best skill, offense, could be maximized if he doesn’t have to concentrate his thinking on catcher.
Well put, Dave. I don’t know that it would be easy to measure whether stretching a prospect defensively can affect offensive development, but I believe it to be the case.