Would You Pay More for Ozuna or Machado?
At some point today, it will probably be announced that the Cardinals have acquired Marcell Ozuna from the Marlins, likely for some combination including Jack Flaherty and Sandy Alcantara. Ozuna isn’t quite Giancarlo Stanton, but St. Louis wants another good outfielder, and they have the pitching the Marlins are looking for.
But yesterday, it came out that the Orioles are willing to listen to offers for Manny Machado. They also are looking for arms, and reportedly want a pair of MLB-ready pitchers in exchange for their franchise player. While the Cardinals infield is more crowded than their outfield, Machado would still represent a substantial upgrade for them at either SS or 3B, and it’s fair to assume they kicked around the pros and cons of pursuing him as their big bat acquisition.
Of course, the primary downside to giving up two promising arms to acquire Machado is that he’s in the final year of his contract, so the Orioles are asking for a significant return for a rental who isn’t likely to give up his chance to hit the open market next winter. Ozuna has another trip through arbitration after this year, so if they trade for him, they’ll get his value for at least the next two years.
The primary upside of trading for Machado is that he’s better than Ozuna, so if the team is mostly concerned with maximizing their chances of catching the Cubs in 2018, they’d get a more substantial upgrade by acquiring Machado. And with Yadier Molina, Adam Wainwright, Matt Carpenter, and Dexter Fowler all likely in decline going forward, one could reasonably argue that the Cardinals might want to take advantage of these guys while they’re still productive.
Beyond just the Cardinals specific situation, though, other teams probably have had to make similar calls, and there are some specific differences with Machado and Ozuna that could alter how one values them, specifically depending on how much emphasis one puts on the most recent year of data. If you think Ozuna’s 2017 season was a legitimate breakout, maybe the performance gap isn’t that large, and then you clearly prefer the extra year of control. If you put more stock on career numbers, then Ozuna is just a nice player, not a star, and you’d probably be better off with one year of the elite guy.
Or, alternately, if you don’t think defense actually matters much, then you want Ozuna, as their career wRC+ — 115 for Machado, 113 for Ozuna — marks are basically the same. Machado’s value gap is almost entirely about the fact that he’s an elite fielder, and if you don’t care about fielding, then you want the two years of Ozuna. On the other hand, Machado is talking about going back to shortstop while Ozuna would play right field in St. Louis, so if you care about offense relative to some positional baseline, Machado again takes a big edge.
For what its worth, Steamer has Machado as about a +6 WAR player, with Ozuna at around +3.5 WAR, assuming 600 PAs for both. But that’s a pretty optimistic forecast for Machado, who was legitimately not great at the plate last year. ZIPS has him at closer to +4 WAR per 600 PAs, putting much more weight on his down year in 2017. Among players at this level, there might not be a guy that ZIPS and Steamer disagree on as much as Machado. So if you’re a ZIPS guy, you probably want Ozuna’s extra year. If you’re a Steamer devotee, you want Machado.
It is worth noting there is also a payroll component here. Machado is projected to earn about $17 million in arbitration this year, while Ozuna comes in closer to $11 million. $6 million isn’t that much these days, but it’s enough to buy some decent depth piece such as a middle reliever. For a team over the CBT threshold, that $6 million difference would also get taxed, and could push the cost this year up to $9 million if they’ve been over the limit three straight years. The money isn’t different enough to be the primary factor in deciding which one to pursue, but acquiring Ozuna probably does leave you a bit more wiggle room to go get another guy to round out your roster.
In reality, I think the value is pretty close. A win-now team should probably prefer Machado, while a team with a longer window to win might want Ozuna. Obviously, if you have a bigger hole in the OF than at SS/3B, that would make the decision easier as well. But let’s just say you ran a team that could get a similar improvement at either position, and had enough budget space to acquire Machado or Ozuna plus some smaller second piece. And let’s assume the acquisition cost is roughly the same, with both Miami and Baltimore looking for your organization’s equivalent of Flaherty and Alcantara. Which one are you trading for?
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
If I’m the Cards, I want Machado. The whole point is to improve a lot at one position over my army of 2-win players, so why not go all the way?
I think if I’m, say, the D-Backs, I want Ozuna. I have a bunch of holes to fill, so I can pick up a 2-win player somewhere else and have the same value of it for two years.
I just typed this out and now am second-guessing the logic of it. But that’s my gut-level take.
This is the correct answer. Ozuna very well be no better than Fowler or Piscotty going forward. The Cardinals have an entire roster of slightly above average players. That strategy worked when that roster was surrounded by Pujols and Edmonds. It doesn’t work without the superstar to bring it all together. Machado can be that guy. I am not sure Ozuna is.
“Ozuna very well be no better than Fowler or Piscotty going forward.”
You might want to show your work on this one.
Ozuna also won’t be displacing Fowler, so that’s not a problem.
If robbotis is referring to Fowler’s 2.7 WAR 2017 season or his 2 WAR Steamer projection for 2018, then it is a problem if Ozuna isn’t better than that.
If robbotis is referring to the roughly 3.5 WAR that Fowler averaged in 2016-17, then I’d say that level of performance from Fowler is unlikely and would be a pleasant surprise, but it’s not a terrible outcome if Ozuna performs at that level. If it’s Fowler’s 4.6 WAR 2016 season, than anything approaching that level would be a good outcome for acquiring Ozuna.
Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen! 🙂
I agree in earnest with your thought process here, though. The Cards are eerily proficient at scrounging up a ton of slightly better than average players. It’s irritating as hell for non-Cardinal fans such as myself.
Unless Machado puts up 2x the WAR of Ozuna, I’d rather take Ozuna for twice as long.
For a team that has a longer window, Ozuna seems like a clearer choice, especially if you’re not a team that will realistically resign someone of Machado’s asking price.
Then again you don’t want to blow your prospect capital on one guy for one season if your window is small. What a conundrum.
I said Ozuna but it’s probably as simple as which position do you have more of a need, OF or IF.
If they come at the same price, I take Ozuna due to the years of control. But if the one less year means Machado would be cheaper, then I would rather take the one year of the better player.
Re: “At some point today, it will probably be announced that the Cardinals have acquired Marcell Ozuna from the Marlins, likely for some combination including Jack Flaherty and Sandy Alcantara. ”
If I’m the Marlins, I’m asking for O’Neill to be in this deal, particularly as the Cardinals’ stated purpose here is to consolidate their OF surplus into one player. Love O’Neill as a lottery ticket for a team like the Marlins.
Prior to reading this article, I would never have guessed that the difference between Machado and Ozuna’s wRC+ is nearly identical.
I would have thought Machado’s was far superior, even after his (relatively) poor showing this year.
My initial intuition was to point out that Machado plays his home games in a hitter’s park while Marlins Park is a pitcher’s park, but after looking their unadjusted career slash lines are pretty close:
– Machado .279 / .329 / .476
– Ozuna .277 /.329 / .457
If i
m St Louis in this scenario id do everything in my power to go the extra mile and get Yelich, plug him in LF, move Fowler, or try him at RF, would like to see a full season from Piscotty, Machados great but its 1 year and while his defense gives him a nice floor in about 3 WAR, his bad plate discipline limits his ceiling at roughly140-145 wRC+ 6-7.5 WAR, there
s nothing bad about this, but to go above such mark, itd take a change in his approach or a boat load of luck, whatever WAR mark he gives u, Yelich beats it by september of his second year, which means hed literally be worth more than twice what Manny is, Ozuna, 2 years, his past season might be peak value, not much growing room, .355 BABIP, great defensive numbers in LF, cant really handle CF, at best you`re getting 8-9.5 WAR, which is good, but Yelich for more, still the better cost/added value acquisitionYelich isn’t really a fair comparison. With 5 years (4 years plus a team option) of team control on a friendly contract, Yelich in a trade will net a trade package that’s way more than just Flaherty and Alcantara. Yelich should return something like the Adam Eaton package.
my point exacly, i`d gladly pay that 4 him, over either one
for all the talk about Ozuna
s breakout, he netted 0.3 WAR more than Yelich, while having a big defensive edge by pushing Cristian to CF, hes a LFI think you’re underestimating what I mean for the trade package for Yelich. It probably starts with Reyes or Weaver and goes from there, unless the Cardinals are taking back a really bad contract (Chen) from the Marlins. And it’s seeming like the Marlins might not like the optics/PR of packaging bad contracts with good players, because they reportedly may not trade Yelich at all.
Your math on the WAR comparison for 2017 is also mistaken. UZR rated Ozuna as only an above average LF in 2017 (+4.6), so his Def (that plus positional adjustment) was -4.3 runs. Ozuna’s career UZR/150 in center is scratch (-0.8), so if he could actually play that then his 2017 UZR only made up about half of the 10 run positional adjustments going from CF to LF.
For 2017, UZR put Yelich at basically scratch, making him +2.4 including the positional adjustment for CF.
There are the standard caveats about one-year defensive sample sizes, but for his career both UZR and DRS rate Ozuna as a somewhat better defensive centerfielder than Yelich.
TLDR: their 2017 WAR comparison is driven by Ozuna having a wRC+ of 142 vs. 115 for Yelich. If anything, it looks like moving to LF might have somewhat hurt Ozuna vs. Yelich in how their respective WAR’s compare.
My point was, both of these players, Marcell and Cristian are probably better suited for LF, Ozuna got the chance of playing there, hence better defensive numbers, Yelich is worth much more, i know, Ozuna probably netted a worse return than it was expected, or maybe not who knows, which is good for St Louis, but they are trading Piscotty to the Athletics right, at least trying to, Piscotty, Alcantara and Sierra, that is a lot of value, probably needs Reyes or Weaver instead of 1 of those 3, along with the second tier ones, my point is whatever package Yelich costs, i`d pay, huge surplus value
Question, how do i fix the multiple fonts, problem, not my intention to deliberately do it
figured it out, will not happen again
but this package 4 Ozuna its a good trade for the Cards
you might have a valid point here but idk i had to stop reading to downvote for font.
If the O’s are asking for a “pair of MLB-ready pitchers” then Alcantra and Falherty are not that. They’ll likely ask for Weaver and Flaherty at least. I lean Ozuna.
I’m also a Cards fan that lives five minutes from the stadium and Manny is my favorite player so kiiiiiinda secretly hope I’m wrong.
I would imagine the Orioles would be asking something like Carlos Martinez, Carson Kelly, and Jack Flaherty for Machado.
If the Cardinals give up Weaver for a 1-year rental, I’ll be extremely disappointed. Look at Weaver’s 2016 line and Steamer projection – http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=16918&position=P . And he’s 24, with 6 years of team control left.
Dave has mentioned recently that a lot of people tend to overestimate the trade return for 1-year rental players, even very good ones, and I think this is a case of doing exactly that. If you buy something approaching the Steamer projection for Weaver, it’s pretty easy to see that 2-3 minimum salary years of Weaver are worth more than 1 year of Machado at his final arb salary, never mind those minimum salary years of Weaver plus his 3 arb years after that.
Comparing 1-year and 2-year commitments as different contention windows seems dishonest at best. Rarely do teams fall off a cliff so fast as the Royals have, so discounting the second year of Ozuna as going towards a “losing” team is pretty lazy in my opinion. And if the team does turn awful, Ozuna is a perfect piece to flip at the 2019 deadline. If the breakout is real, you could end up with a nice piece for the future (assuming the market doesn’t JD Martinez him).
I also think Machado’s projections are a little bit aggressive. Sure he’s just 25, but projecting basically career highs across the board might be a little high for a 50th-percentile outcome. I’ll take the under on 39 HR’s, for example.
I agree. It would be one thing if a team looks to have some key free agents after 2018 who it can’t realistically sign, but that’s not the Cardinals.
The Cardinals’ only free agent after 2018 is Wainwright, and it’s not that hard to see internal options largely replacing his production in 2019 even without Alcantara and Flaherty. That’s particularly the case if one focuses on Wainwright’s recent RA9-WAR rather than fWAR (or looks at a blend of the two).
Dave Cameron named the Cardinals’ four oldest key contributors, and their Steamer forecasts for 2018 total 9.3 fWAR, distributed fairly evenly among the four players. The Cardinals have internal options behind all of them such that the team shouldn’t be going to replacement level if any of them get hurt or turn into a pumpkin, with 1B behind Carpenter depending to some degree on how much you buy Jose Martinez’s late-bloomer breakout.
Whether with Machado or Ozuna, the Cardinals’ aren’t likely to project above the Cubs for 2018, so I think it’s wise to maximize the number of chances at both (1) winning the division through some combination of Cubs’ underperformance and Cardinals’ overperformance or (2) making the Wild Card game.
Finally, the Cardinals should have money available to spend in free agency in 2018, and they still also have some prospect trade capital with all the outfielders in the high minors.
Manny is younger. I would go with him and try to sign him long term.
I don’t know if the average baseball fan has caught up yet with just how good Marcell Ozuna is, given the market he plays in.
After reading a bunch of comments here and elsewhere I would reiterate this even more strongly. Almost all the takes on this trade I’m seeing are based on a way-too-low valuation of Ozuna.
If I’m the Cards I’d go for Machado and throw the same dump truck full of money at him that they would have thrown Stanton. Young pitchers are such fickle prospects and it wouldn’t be a huge surprise to see Flaherty and Alcantara as bullpen arms, or at the back end of a rotation. If you take a look at 2012 top 50 prospects (BA) you see a lot of names like M Moore, T Bauer, D Bundy, T Skaggs, D Hultzen, A Bradley, M Montgomery, J Parker, M Banuelos, A Vizcaino, R Delgado, J Cosart… Those guys were all VERY highly regarded prospects only five years ago that for various reasons have not reached anywhere near stardom.
I’m sure the fans of the various players above will come at me with knives out, but all I’m saying is that if you have a chance to trade for a generational talent (and gain a year of exclusive negotiating rights), for two guys that are most likely not generational talents you should probably go it…. Especially if you’re as deep with pitching prospects as the Cardinals are.
Hey now, Dylan Bundy is at the top of a rotation!
Touche!
But a mute point now!
The one wild card in the question you’re posing is: just how worried am I that my window of contention could shut overnight?
The two teams who should prefer Machado, I think, are the Giants (who aren’t sure to compete anyway) and the Nationals (who could return Turner to the outfield and be more than happy with the defensive downgrade there in exchange for Machado). Both have every reason to think 2019 is going to be rough.
Everyone else ought to value the extra year. The Angels’ pitching is too uncertain to cash everything in on one season. The Cardinals’ pitching is probably too young to do that. The other contenders all seem to have a bit of staying power in various ways.
I think I would say Ozuna if I’m the Cardinals here since I really don’t think Machado would resign in St. Louis after 2018. There are talks to deal Piscotty as well and while he may not net a great return, getting a lottery ticket pitcher there might ease the prospect load going for Ozuna.
If you can get a Machado extension with the trade, however, I might sway that route.
I have always viewed Machado as an absolute Superstar while Ozuna as a very good player but a one year rental of Machado is not equal to two years of Ozuna. If the players involved were the same I would want the Ozuna deal.
If price is equal, Machado all the way. If, as in real life, the price for Machado will probably be significantly higher than for Ozuna, I’m taking Ozuna.
“if you’re a ZIPS guy”
reminder: not all your readers are guys