2019 Trade Value: #11 to #20

Francisco Lindor’s production (and smile) continue to rank highly throughout the industry. (Photo: Keith Allison)

As is the annual tradition at FanGraphs, we’re using a week around the All-Star Game — when the industry pauses to take a metaphorical breather — to take stock of the top-50 trade chips in the sport. For more context on exactly what we’re trying to do here, see the Honorable Mentions post linked at the top of the page.

For this post and the top 10 to follow, I’ll present a graphic (by way of the wizard Sean Dolinar) breaking down each player’s objective skill level (represented, in this case, by a five-year WAR projection from ZiPS), contract/team-control details, rank in last year’s series, and then year-by-year details of age, WAR, and contract through the end of 2023, although a couple players have control beyond those five years, and some, you’ll notice, show projections for fewer years to reflect when those players reach free agency. For those readers who are partial to spreadsheets rather than blocks of text, I’ll also include all of the players we’ve ranked so far in grid format at the bottom of the post.

It should be noted that the ZiPS WAR forecasts influenced the rankings a bit. For players who were bunched together, it acted as an impartial tiebreaker of sorts, but the industry opinions I solicited drove the rankings.

With that said, let’s get to the next 10 spots on this year’s Trade Value list.

Five-Year WAR +18.5
Guaranteed Dollars $46.0 M
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #35
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 27 +4.0 $7.0 M
2021 28 +4.0 $10.5 M
2022 29 +3.7 $12.5 M
2023 30 +3.5 $16.0 M

Snell signed an extension this winter that locks him up through his age-30 season, which would’ve been his first year of free agency. He really belongs as the last guy in the previous article, so you can see him on the tier with fellow possible/current aces German Marquez, Shane Bieber, Jacob deGrom, Jose Berrios, Chris Paddack, Aaron Nola and (given the late revelations I’ve since added to his blurb about the details of his contract) Max Scherzer. All of these guys rank from 20th to the low-30s, and could be put in almost any order. Most sources I spoke with moved them as a group and generally kept the same names at the top/bottom as I have, shuffling the order in the middle a bit. Once you take Scherzer off the table as the best pitcher in baseball, ZiPS essentially has Snell, Jacob deGrom, Marquez, Bieber, and Nola tied for second among those pitchers over the 2020-2024 term. Snell is the only lefty in the group, he’s on pace for his fourth straight year of 31 regular season starts, his velo has been stable year-to-year at an average of 95.7 mph, his 3.12 FIP over his last 58 starts is a sustained run of elite performance, and his extension is for reasonable money, for exactly as long as I’d be predicting No. 2 or 3 starter performance from him.

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Five-Year WAR +18.3
Guaranteed Dollars $100.0 M
Team Control Through 2025
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 27 +4.5 $20.0 M
2021 28 +4.2 $20.0 M
2022 29 +3.7 $20.0 M
2023 30 +3.2 $20.0 M
2024 31 +2.7 $20.0 M
Player Option

Bogaerts was lower in earlier iterations of this list because I just assumed that a bunch of guaranteed money, even at a reasonable rate, would move him to the back half of the top 50. He slowly worked his way up as I got advice from industry folks, and I realized his contract is still an asset. He’s making $12 million this year in his final year of arbitration, then $20 million per year from 2020-2025 with a 2026 vesting option for $20 million if he reaches 535 plate appearances in 2025. And, because Bogaerts’ agent is Scott Boras and this was an extension (i.e. a rare concession to the team), Bogaerts got an opt out after 2022.

Bogaerts would be choosing between hitting the open market for his age-30 season (coming off of a five-year run with WAR of 4.9, 6.6, 4.5, 4.2, and 3.7) or sticking with the three years and $60 million remaining on his deal, with a vesting option if he can play what amounts to 125 of 162 games in 2025. He could probably beat that contract by a bit, but the market is hard to peg when we’re in it, so we’ll call the opt-out a 50/50 at this point. Interestingly, UZR has Bogaerts as essentially average defensively for his career, at a pretty steady rate since 2013, while DRS has him between -10 and -19 runs annually from 2016-2019. If Bogaerts has to move off of shortstop, it could make a contract in his 30s a little trickier, so having $120 million guaranteed is nice security given the 24 WAR he’s going to put up in his first six seasons. All of that to say, Bogaerts is really valuable for the next 3.5 years or so. It’s a bit of an open question what his value will be after that, but the salary won’t be high enough to make this contract a problem.

Five-Year WAR +14.3
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 25 +2.9 Pre-Arb
2021 26 +3.0 Arb1
2022 27 +2.9 Arb2
2023 28 +2.8 Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb

Moncada was another tough placement because his first 900 PA or so were just okay, but he was so hyped and has such good tools and we’ve sadly been conditioned to expect every elite prospect to ball out from day one. He didn’t even make the Honorable Mentions last year because even a .344 BABIP and bonkers tools couldn’t get him to a league average offensive performance, so it seemed like a wait-and-see-and-maybe-lower-your-expectations-a-bit sort of situation. This year, Moncada looks different, in a way similar to the change we’ve seen in Joey Gallo: he got a little better at everything. Suddenly he’s 24 years old and performing, and making me feel silly and reactionary for ever questioning that smile.

Moncada’s StatCast figures show that while his strikeouts are down, his exit velo and rate of barrels are way up, which puts his expected batting average (.283) and slugging (.512) right about where we would’ve pegged them to be when we had him as baseball’s top prospect. ZiPS incorporates StatCast data for the BABIP projection (Dan reports the StatCast data gives Moncada eight extra points of projected BABIP), but it may be a little slower to recognize the power spike (which StatCast’s quicker-stabilizing data thinks is real). This whole package likely costs under $40 million for 4.5 years of a tools monster with prospect pedigree who’s about to post a not-that-lucky 4.7 WAR season at age 24. There’s still some uncertainty here, but I feel a little better about this than the back end of the Bogaerts deal.

Five-Year WAR +15.0
Guaranteed Dollars $18.0 M
Team Control Through 2024
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 26 +3.4 $4.0 M
2021 27 +3.3 $6.0 M
2022 28 +3.0 $8.0 M
2023 29 +2.8 $10.0 M
2024 30 +2.5 $12.0 M
Team Option

Speaking of one-year breakouts changing a guy’s trade value, it was tough to separate Moncada and Marte given all the similarities. Marte is a year and a half older and has a background in the infield, but is having his breakout season playing both second base and center field for Arizona. Given his elite athleticism, it’s not surprising that defensive metrics show him as plus in center field (in a small sample) and average at second base. This year’s performance looks to be a little on the lucky side, and a few sources questioned how real the power spike was. StatCast expected outcomes have his wRC+ closer to 120 this year, rather than the 135 he’s currently sitting at. I think ZiPS has this one about right: a peak between 3 and 4 WAR in true talent. The salary and WAR are pretty similar to Moncada, but Marte has an extra year of control by virtue of an extension he signed before the 2018 season, so he gets the slight edge here. But this is one matchup where I may flip the winner every other day.

Five-Year WAR +14.3
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #30
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 25 +2.9 Pre-Arb
2021 26 +3.0 Arb1
2022 27 +2.9 Arb2
2023 28 +2.8 Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb

So I’m sure you’re aware that Ohtani is really good and exciting, and both hits and pitches and next year he’s gonna pitch again. He’s a really good pitcher, which is what we expected and look forward to seeing again. I’d like to see more than 10 starts before I say he would’ve made the top 50 just as a pitcher, but I think he would’ve. The surprising part is the bat — we thought he’d be a solid, useful hitter, but with big power and contact issues. After 607 plate appearances, Ohtani has posted 4.1 WAR and that’s while not playing the field at all; we have good reason to believe he’d be around average in right field with an 80 arm. By rate stats, Ohtani has been the second-best DH in baseball and has been better than Giancarlo Stanton over 2018 and 2019, and Stanton got a $325 million contract for doing just that. And he doesn’t pitch at all.

Even if we assume some regression and a conservative usage case (20 starts and 400 plate appearances), Ohtani’s still a 4 WAR player. ZiPS is undershooting that figure because of the gaps in his pitching and hitting record, which make playing time is tough to project. He’ll be going into his traditional prime years next year and while we’ve seen the downside in terms of injuries, the upside is still a 10-win season where he’s a durable ace (5-6 WAR) and a top-three DH (4-5 WAR). You could easily argue he should be ranked higher within this list, but there are enough unknowns — and concern that trying to contribute both ways will impact his durability/performance — that we’ll be conservative. Ohtani has a better chance than most guys in the teens to be in the top five on this list next year, as a hot 15 starts in 2020 and more uninterrupted hitting performance could led to his ZiPS projections jumping close to 5 WAR per year.

Five-Year WAR +20.2
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2022
Previous Rank #3
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 28 +4.6 Arb1
2021 29 +4.7 Arb2
2022 30 +4.2 Arb3
Arb

Judge, 27, has seen some fairly minor injuries stack up (wrist, oblique) and affect his playing time. Meanwhile, execs have always wondered how he would age given his frame. This could be confirmation bias given that there is such a small sample of MVP-level giants to compare Judge to, but his teammate Giancarlo Stanton, noted for not being a pitcher, is 29 with what appears to be a better-aging physique, and is now in his third season of a meaningful injury eating into his playing time. Judge is in his prime and still has 8 WAR upside, but ZiPS’ expectation of 4 to 5 WAR in what should be some very pricey arbitration years seems about right. I’ll set the over/under for the tab on Judge’s three arb years at $49 million.

Five-Year WAR +20.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #45
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 23 +3.8 Pre-Arb
2021 24 +4.2 Arb1
2022 25 +4.2 Arb2
2023 26 +4.3 Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb

Devers is another young player enjoying a breakout season that was predicted when he was an amateur but took a little bit of time to materialize, even though he’s somehow still just 22. These things happen when every scout who sees you at age 15 thinks you’re the best hitter they’ve seen in years, making not being an All-Star in the next six years seems like a letdown. He leads all of baseball by a good margin in hard-hit balls, his strikeouts are down, his power is up, and his defensive metrics have even improved a bit. He’s been a bit hit-lucky this year, so I have him in the 3-4 WAR true talent range right now, but he’s also 22 and could still take another step forward. Devers also has another year at the league minimum, so his could be another precedent-setting trip through arbitration if he opts to pass on an extension.

Five-Year WAR +29.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2021
Previous Rank #2
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 26 +6.5 Arb2
2021 27 +6.5 Arb3
Arb

After barely missing any games for three seasons, Lindor missed the beginning of this season with leg injuries, but he has picked up where he left off performance-wise. A popular topic of discussion with Indians fans following our All-Star Weekend event in Cleveland was whether the team could re-sign Lindor. Signs point both to Lindor wanting to hit the open market after 2021 and the Indians not having the money or inclination to pay him, but Lindor’s agent also negotiated the Ozzie Albies deal and has been Craig Kimbrel’s agent, so it’s pretty hard to triangulate that signal. There aren’t a lot of guys projected by the mid-season ZiPS update to post 6.5 WAR seasons in 2020 and 2021 (*whispers* it’s only Mike Trout), so getting 2.5 years of a now-healthy second-best player in baseball for what I’ll guess is $39 million in his final two years of arbitration is pretty, pretty good.

Five-Year WAR +24.5
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2024
Previous Rank #20
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 23 +4.5 Pre-Arb
2021 24 +4.9 Arb1
2022 25 +5.2 Arb2
2023 26 +5.1 Arb3
2024 27 +4.8 Arb4
Pre-Arb
Arb

Devers was thought of as a slam dunk guy in his July 2nd class. Some other playters in that humble 2013 J2 class include Victor Robles, Eloy Jimenez, Ozzie Albies, and Gleyber Torres. I saw four of those five at an MLB showcase the winter before they signed, and Torres stood out to me as the best talent (Devers was the best hitter) because he could play shortstop, and while he didn’t have the flashy tools you look for at these events, he did everything well and slowed the game down in all phases. If you look in the top right of his Baseball Savant page, you’ll see that his tools as measured by StatCast are all about average, though our tools grades on him are a little stronger than that. Torres is still just 22, and his defense and feel for the game bring a lot to the table where his raw tools aren’t plus like you’d prefer to see. He’ll likely be grouped with Devers for awhile, and you could still flip those guys, but Torres can play the middle infield and has an extra year of control, so he gets the nod.

Five-Year WAR +19.0
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2024
Previous Rank #40
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2020 25 +3.9 Pre-Arb
2021 26 +3.9 Arb1
2022 27 +4.0 Arb2
2023 28 +3.8 Arb3
2024 29 +3.4 Arb4
Pre-Arb
Arb

Putting Buehler at No. 40 last year got some pushback from readers, but industry folks were pretty sure that even as a slight-framed righty with a TJ, they were looking at a potential ace who was about to prove it, and do so in the way it needs to be done in today’s game. In the 32 regular season starts since last year’s list, Buehler has thrown 195 innings with a 3.22 FIP, didn’t miss a single time through the rotation, and mixed in four sterling playoff starts with even better stats. The same risk factors apply as they did last summer (pitcher, TJ, slight frame, throws hard) but the superlative last 12 months, along with the postseason multiplicative ace properties, means that Buehler has to go to the front of the list ahead of these hitters, who each have one or two issues you could nitpick over. Spoiler alert: Buehler is the highest-ranked pitcher on this year’s list.

2019 Trade Value, 11-50
Rk Pv Player Age 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024
11 40 Walker Buehler 24 +3.9
Pre-Arb
+3.9
Arb1
+4.0
Arb2
+3.8
Arb3
+3.4
Arb4
12 20 Gleyber Torres 22 +4.5
Pre-Arb
+4.9
Arb1
+5.2
Arb2
+5.1
Arb3
+4.8
Arb4
13 2 Francisco Lindor 25 +6.5
Arb2
+6.5
Arb3
14 45 Rafael Devers 22 +3.8
Pre-Arb
+4.2
Arb1
+4.2
Arb2
+4.3
Arb3
15 3 Aaron Judge 27 +4.6
Arb1
+4.7
Arb2
+4.2
Arb3
16 30 Shohei Ohtani 24 +2.9
Pre-Arb
+3.0
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.8
Arb3
17 Ketel Marte 25 +3.4
$4.0 M
+3.3
$6.0 M
+3.0
$8.0 M
+2.8
$10.0 M
+2.5
$12.0 M
18 Yoan Moncada 24 +2.9
Pre-Arb
+3.0
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.8
Arb3
19 Xander Bogaerts 26 +4.5
$20.0 M
+4.2
$20.0 M
+3.7
$20.0 M
+3.2
$20.0 M
+2.7
$20.0 M
20 35 Blake Snell 26 +4.0
$7.0 M
+4.0
$10.5 M
+3.7
$12.5 M
+3.5
$16.0 M
21 Shane Bieber 24 +4.3
Pre-Arb
+4.3
Pre-Arb
+4.3
Arb1
+4.3
Arb2
+4.0
Arb3
22 German Marquez 24 +4.2
$4.5 M
+4.2
$7.5 M
+4.3
$11.0 M
+4.2
$15.0 M
+3.8
$16.0 M
23 Wander Franco 18 +1.2
Pre-Arb
+2.3
Pre-Arb
+3.9
Pre-Arb
+4.5
Arb1
+5.3
Arb2
24 25 Jacob deGrom 31 +4.5
$23.0 M
+4.5
$33.5 M
+3.8
$33.5 M
+3.5
$30.5 M
+3.3
$32.5 M
25 11 Kris Bryant 27 +4.7
Arb3
+4.3
Arb4
26 46 Jose Berrios 25 +3.5
Arb1
+3.5
Arb2
+3.4
Arb3
27 8 Trea Turner 26 +4.2
Arb2
+4.0
Arb3
+3.6
Arb4
28 Joey Gallo 25 +2.9
Arb1
+3.0
Arb2
+2.8
Arb3
29 HM Paul DeJong 25 +3.4
$1.5 M
+3.4
$4.0 M
+3.0
$6.0 M
+2.9
$9.0 M
+2.5
$12.5 M
30 Chris Paddack 23 +2.5
Pre-Arb
+2.5
Pre-Arb
+2.7
Arb1
+2.6
Arb2
+2.3
Arb3
31 21 Aaron Nola 26 +4.0
$8.0 M
+4.0
$11.8 M
+3.8
$15.0 M
+3.8
$16.0 M
32 Peter Alonso 24 +4.0
Pre-Arb
+4.1
Pre-Arb
+3.7
Arb1
+3.5
Arb2
+3.2
Arb3
33 1 Jose Ramirez 26 +4.6
$6.3 M
+4.5
$9.0 M
+4.0
$11.0 M
+3.5
$13.0 M
34 HM Javier Baez 26 +4.1
Arb2
+3.7
Arb3
35 34 Rhys Hoskins 26 +4.0
Pre-Arb
+4.0
Arb1
+3.8
Arb2
+3.2
Arb3
36 9 Freddie Freeman 29 +4.9
$22.0 M
+4.6
$22.0 M
37 HM Nick Senzel 24 +2.7
Pre-Arb
+2.7
Pre-Arb
+2.6
Arb1
+2.5
Arb2
+2.4
Arb3
38 Jorge Polanco 25 +3.1
$3.8 M
+3.2
$4.3 M
+2.8
$5.5 M
+2.7
$7.5 M
+2.2
$10.5 M
39 Jeff McNeil 27 +4.0
Pre-Arb
+3.8
Pre-Arb
+3.3
Arb1
+3.0
Arb2
+2.3
Arb3
40 Max Kepler 26 +3.0
$6.3 M
+2.8
$6.5 M
+2.6
$6.8 M
+2.1
$8.5 M
+1.6
$10.0 M
41 Brandon Woodruff 26 +2.9
Pre-Arb
+2.9
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.8
Arb3
+2.5
Arb4
42 Mike Soroka 21 +2.7
Pre-Arb
+2.7
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.9
Arb3
+2.7
Arb4
43 32 Eugenio Suarez 27 +3.5
$9.3 M
+3.2
$10.5 M
+3.2
$11.0 M
+2.7
$11.0 M
+2.2
$11.0 M
44 41 Max Scherzer 34 +5.6
$35.0 M
+5.6
$35.0 M
45 5 Carlos Correa 24 +4.2
Arb2
+4.3
Arb3
46 31 Gary Sanchez 26 +3.2
Arb1
+3.0
Arb2
+2.6
Arb3
47 13 Corey Seager 25 +4.0
Arb2
+3.9
Arb3
48 Adalberto Mondesi 23 +3.0
Pre-Arb
+3.0
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.8
Arb3
49 HM Matt Olson 25 +3.4
Pre-Arb
+3.4
Arb1
+3.1
Arb2
+2.9
Arb3
50 Luis Castillo 26 +3.4
Pre-Arb
+3.4
Arb1
+3.2
Arb2
+3.0
Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb
Team Option
Player Option





Kiley McDaniel has worked as an executive and scout, most recently for the Atlanta Braves, also for the New York Yankees, Baltimore Orioles and Pittsburgh Pirates. He's written for ESPN, Fox Sports and Baseball Prospectus. Follow him on twitter.

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Cave Dameron
6 years ago

I think most teams would have Ohtani much higher on their lists.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

He’s a 4 WAR hitter in his first 600 PAs, and pitched at a rate of 3 WAR per 30 starts, in his rookie season. He’s a free agent in 2024. His floor is so high, with 2 routes to producing value. Imagine his value in the playoffs?!?

That said, the top 10 are elite young hitters with a ton of team control. I wouldn’t be surprised if 7 of the top 10 make the hall of fame (don’t ask me which 7). I’d move Ohtani up about 5 spots, but he’s still probably on the outside of the top 10.

RPDCMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

Sadly, one of the top 10 isn’t an elite hitter – just a very good young player who is only in the top 10 b/c he signed a contract that he didn’t understand (by his own admission) and that pays him an indecent fraction of his value.

weekapaug09
6 years ago
Reply to  RPDC

The guy in question isn’t too far from being elite. 7.7 WAR already and he doesn’t turn 23 for another six months. But yeah, the contract is still unconscionable. And I say that as a Braves fan..

hebrewMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  RPDC

i’d love if you could clarify the (by his own admission) remark, because I can’t find what you seem to be implying

dl80Member since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

So, Trout, Betts, Bellinger, Yelich, and Bregman, all have at least a chance at the Hall of Fame, though it is obviously really early for everyone but Trout. Too early on Albies, Soto, and Acuna to say much about their chances, really.

Not sure who the other 2 guys are, but I think 7 Hall of Famers out of that is very unlikely.

Trout is in, obviously, and Betts and Yelich are probably better than 50/50 at this point. But I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s all out of the 10.

Psychic... Powerless...
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

As Kiley stated in the introduction, this list is based on what teams told him, not his personal preferences.

Maggie25
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

I mean, isn’t his list made by talking to people from most teams? The intro makes it clear that it’s not based on Kiley’s opinion about players.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

Alright I love Ohtani but let’s be a part of the red team and try to make a case against him being higher

Tommy John means he won’t be pitching for awhile
He has no positional value in the field other than DH (has he ever played the field other than pitching?)
His FIP last year (3.57) ranked last of Marquez (3.40), Bieber (3.23), Buehler (3.04), Nola (3.01), Snell (2.95), and deGrom (1.99)
His walk rate was as well last of that group
He does have speed but he’s been an average base runner so far
Strikeouts aren’t crazy but they are fairly high (27.8% in 2018, 23.8% in 2019, and projected for 28% by ZiPS for the rest of the season)
He looks like a very good DH but there is only so much value; David Ortiz peaked at 6 wins in 2007 as a DH but he had a 175 wRC+ and averaged ~3 wins per 600 PA for his career (Ohtani though is obviously a better runner)

I suppose you could find dings for everyone but I’m just trying to play devil’s advocate here (Othani is really good)

Stoppage in Udders
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

He played the OF in Japan occasionally

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

all caveats accepted here, I think he’s going to be really good for a long time.
but….
He’s going to be really expensive when everyone else is getting cheaper and younger. He’s just going to cost a ton of money in his next contract, and from the way things are going, you can get that kind of production cheaper elsewhere (or develop it internally).
Also, rampant speculation, but he’s probably going to care about market size, so the list of teams that can re-sign him is going to be very small (though I imagine everyone cares about market size, so maybe that won’t matter).

All these things are contingent and small, but who knows. Heterogeneity in wage suppression might be the most interesting thing here, but who knows if things will keep going the way they are.

Careless
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

“his next contract” doesn’t matter for his trade value when he’s controlled for 5 years.

Shirtless George Brett
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Ohtani has no positional value only because they refuse to play him in the field, not because he cant play the field. Thats an important distinction.

As Kiley states, with an 80 grade arm (and 60 grade speed) he is likely at least an avg RF if not better if they actually chose/were forced to play him there.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
6 years ago

But he is never going to play the field, that’s the point.

Edgar Martinez could play 3B but the Mariners played *checks notes* Russ Davis instead.

Ohtani stopped playing OF in Japan basically at 19. NHF didn’t let him play outfield in 2015, 2016, or 2016. The Angels haven’t played him there yet either.

No team in the MLB is going to let him both field and pitch. It was somewhat revolutionary just to DH him.

Shirtless George Brett
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

But he is never going to play the field, that’s the point.

No, thats not the point actually. The point is he does have positional value its just not utilized at this point in time. If he found himself in a position where he could not pitch anymore (or if the Angels just decide its not worth it anymore) he would not be relegated DH and therefore have his value severely inhibited by his lack of defensive ability. He would move to the OF and likely be a good to great OF.

This is a pretty important point to recognize when talking about value especially future value.

Edgar Martinez could play 3B

Edgar could play 3B in the sense they could write “3B” next to his name on the scorecard. Thats about it. lol

ShauncoreMember since 2019
6 years ago

Bryce Harper doesn’t have any value added because his fallback is a pitcher.

No team is going to play Ohtani in the outfield. Ability to play and actual any realm of possibility to play are different. No single team is going to add to the cost to acquire Ohtani because there’s a remote chance they could use him as an outfielder.

And Ohtani hasn’t played the outfield in five years, since he was a teenager. I don’t think if you put him out there tomorrow he is automatically an average outfielder without spending time playing.

Not to mention we are arguing over what amounts to like…10 runs over a full season (~1 win). It’s not like we are saying Ohtani could maybe play SS. Right field is still a negative positional adjustment, so even if he were an average right fielder it would just be less bad than being a DH.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

I would bet money he plays the field during his MLB career. Baseball is changing, and I think the Angels will see he isn’t being utilized as a DH/ SP.

Shirtless George Brett
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Not to mention we are arguing over what amounts to like…10 runs over a full season (~1 win).

The positional difference alone is worth 10 runs (DH is -17.5 and RF is -7.5) if Ohtani is actually good (there is no reason to think he couldn’t be) out there it could be another 1-2 wins on-top of that. Plus you would also have him hitting 500+ times a year as opposed to 350ish. So no, it’s not what amounts to 1 win.

Ohtani is only a DH out of precaution. Any team that acquired him could say to hell with him pitching and instantly have a top 10-15 OF. I’m not sure why you are so admanant on arguing what is a pretty obvious idea.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

I think his speed is much faster than the 60 grade they have on him. He has posted faster home to 1st than plenty of guys who are just in the MLB for their legs (Dyson, Gore, Lopez, Allen) and his split times consistently run him in the top 50 in the MLB, with top 15ish home to 1st. They will eventually change his usage, and I think this whole regression in his bat thing seems very weird. He is still new to stateside baseball. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him stay as he is, a top 10-20 hitter. Assuming that happens, as I think it will, I think they will use him as a dh/rp, or a of/rp. There is no reason for them to continue to start him imo.

Angelsjunky
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

This actually solidified my view that he should be higher.

BROD
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

“He has no positional value in the field other than DH (has he ever played the field other than pitching?)”

I don’t know if you are serious or not.
But anyway —- Ohtani is a SP, which means that he’s at the very top of the defensive spectrum, and thus can accrue more defensive value than any of the other defenders on the baseball field even while pitching only once a week.

Are you suggesting that he should start everyday?

Furthermore, Fangraphs’ positional adjustment for Ohtani is simply messed up; it’s currently constructed to give Ohtani, a two-way player (a hitter+pitcher, which is much more valuable than a hitter+shortstop or a hitter+catcher, for example), the DH adjustment even when he’s playing both ways despite the fact that he should get easily the highest positional adjustment of any player in baseball, not to mention that it also doesn’t consider the value for his team of getting a front-line starter and a middle-of-the-order bat out of one roster spot.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  BROD

No, that’s the correct adjustment, since he is replacing a DH and not a pitcher in the lineup. If he was replacing a pitcher he’d be much higher.

(You could argue that for the Angels specifically it should be higher because the Angels have terrible options at DH, but it’s not easy to account for the sunk cost fallacy in wins above replacement, especially since he might not have that for whatever team traded for him)

For this reason, I think it’s pretty clear the best route to maximizing his value would be for him to be a part-time 1B and full-time pitcher in the National League, but that point seems to be moot.

BradMember since 2024
6 years ago

So there are only 10 spots left… here are the 11 guys who I figured were “locks”:

Trout
Betts
Bregman
Albies
Chapman
Acuna Jr
Guerrero Jr
Soto
Yelich
Bellinger
Tatis Jr

Sooo… is the big shocker that Betts isn’t on the list, since he only has 1.5 years of control?

BradMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

For what it’s worth, he wasn’t listed as “not returning”, but it doesn’t make sense who else wouldn’t make it here. The first 10 were all on last year and weren’t listed as “not returning”, and Tatis will obviously be there. What gives? A Fangraphs error?

james123Member since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

Gotta be Betts. It makes sense that he’s not on the list given his contract situation (I would’ve thought he’d be in the 40s but it’s all pretty similar). Guess Kiley just forgot to mention him in the “short term control of a good bat” section of the honorable mentions.

There’s also a very small chance it’s Trout given his contract but i can’t really see it.

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  james123

Trout will be 1 or 2 (with Acuña)

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Has to be. I mean, what kind of contract would knock Trout out of the top 10? 50 million a year with ten years of player options?

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Trout is signed for the next 11.5 seasons through age 38. I’m quite sure that at some point time will come for even him, and his performance (and trade value) will begin to slide.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

well, yes, that’s why is phrased as a hypothetical. There’s a point at which what you pay for Trout for how long knocks him out of the top ten, and there’s value in thinking about what that is. I think even a year to year deal for Trout at, say, 50 million isn’t enough to do it.

The other interesting question here is if the Angels figure they can write off the back half of this contract in insurance. That would require a level of vicious cunning I don’t think we’ve seen in baseball, but you do see in other sports.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

1 or 2? I don’t think so, for the reasons outlined in the Scherzer entry. There are just too many teams who can’t afford him.

But I do think Acuna is going to be Top 3. How could he not be? I’m mostly curious to see where Albies lands.

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Every team in baseball could find $33 million per season for Trout. The Padres signed Machado for $300 million after giving Hosmer $144 million the year before. You could make an argument for the Rays and A’s, but that’s it.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Perhaps I should have clarified:

A substantial teams would find Trout’s contract would take up a substantial proportion of their payroll, and would be extremely averse to giving up anything of value for that privilege.

Which is different than, “What would he get in free agency?” since I bet 25 teams would give him the deal on his current contract. The Padres, who are on the smaller side of payroll, would have absolutely paid him that in free agency. But they’re not giving up Mackenzie Gore and a boatload of other prospects for the right to tie their payroll down for years to come. Others might.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

this is probably too deep in the nesting to get the proper air it deserves, but given the Albies situation alluded to up there, I wonder how much orgs think about a player’s agent when they consider trade value.

If you know a guy’s agent eats paste, don’t you think his trade value is higher because you feel you can commit highway robbery on an extension?

b0ndsj0ns
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Acuna 1, Albies 2. Those deals they signed are so long and so insanely cheap. Albies deal is almost criminally cheap. AAV of 5 million a year and 2 team options at 7 million a piece is insane.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

Betts is not top 10. He’s off the list altogether. Probably an oversight in the first post of this year’s series.

The exclusion of Betts altogether probably means we need to take a more critical look at the hitters with only 2.5 years remaining. Bryant, for example, might be a little too high in this exercise. I have a hard time seeing how Alonso is ranked lower than Bryant, for example. Bryant should be back in the late thirties with Freddie Freeman.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

Exclusion of Betts says nothing about Bryant’s trade value except that it will be significantly lower a year from now which is… pretty obvious?

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

A team would not trade Alonso for Bryant, even if they were in “win-now” mode. That suggests Bryant is ranked too high — today. That’s my point. There needs to be a bigger penalty for players 2 years away from free agency, since teams would not consider making that trade to acquire Bryant.

Corey Seager is also ranked too high, and belongs as an honorable mention next to Trevor Story. I would expect Whit Merrifield, for example, would be a better trade value. Merrifield has an amazing contract.

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

Bryant is in front of Alonso because Alonso is on pace to hit around 55 HRs and still turn in what would be by WAR the worst full season of Kris Bryant’s career

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

Bryant is projected to be worth a combined 1 extra win in the next 2 years over Alonso. And then you get Alonso’s age 27, 28, and 29 seasons, while Bryant leaves as a free agent. That 1 extra win for Bryant is worth less than 3 extra seasons for Alonso, in my opinion. Others can disagree, of course.

Edit: And I’m a Phillies fan, so this is not homerism. I begrudgingly accept that Alonso is/will be quite valuable to the Mets.

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

The projections are most likely underselling Bryant compared to what the teams Kiley has spoken to think. Bryant is remarkably consistent. He has gone over 6 WAR every season he has been healthy and is on pace to do so again this season. The only player with as many 6+ WAR seasons as Bryant in the past 5 years is Trout. My guess is that no one is buying that he is going to generate 11.9 WAR over the next 2.5 years like ZiPS is saying and teams instead see that number as closer to 15. Alonso meanwhile does not have any sort of pro track record to base projections off so teams may be more inclined to believe ZiPS that he is only going to be worth 9 WAR over the next 2.5 years. So if you stretch the gap to 5-6 wins in a 2.5 year period you can start to see why teams would be willing to forgo the extra years of control on the backend for Alonso.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

It might just be timing of the conversations with front offices. My prediction is that, once the season is over and the multiyear Zips projections are completed, Alonso gets a string of Stanton-like projections of 5 WAR, 45+ HR seasons. Bryant will also have 5 WAR projections, albeit weighted more heavily toward defense and OBP. I do not anticipate 2+ WAR differences in annual projections, but I could be wrong.

BTW, there is a very good reason why you regress projections toward the mean. Jose Ramirez, Jose Altuve, Corey Seager, Carlos Correa… stuff happens.

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

This isn’t about ZiPS. It’s about the fact that Alonso has played 100 games at a 5.5 WAR/season pace in his career and Bryant has played 5 seasons at a 6 WAR season/pace. Bryant is the better player at this moment and he is the more reliable player going forward

EDIT: and to address your comment about when these conversations took place. Since May 1:

Bryant 328/431/626
Alonso 261/357/601

If execs favored Bryant more in April, they certainly are going to favor him more now

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

I agree with both statements (Bryant is the better player at this moment and he is the more reliable player going forward). I guess we agree to disagree on the magnitude of the difference, and how it compares to the extra 3 years of team control that Alonso provides. It does come down to your projection, of course, whether it’s ZIPS or MARIOLOPEZPROJECTION. A 6 WAR difference over the next 2.5 years would justify the current ranking. Since the projections that I believe most accurately quantify the risk of future performance decline show a 0.9 WAR difference over the next 2 years, I’m guessing you would agree that would not be worth the tradeoff. The difference is in projected value. Agree to disagree.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

Regarding the performance since May 1, Bryant’s recent production doesn’t alter the projection that much… We know who Bryant is, and we regress his performance slightly for a projection. Two months of great production may alter the 2 year projection slightly, because it points to 2018 being more of a fluke, but it’s not huge.

However, Alonso’s continued success in his rookie year (taking into account luck metrics and quality of contact) has a large impact on his 3 year projection. While Alonso hit well in every year in the minors, a good projection system is going to regress that dramatically. As he has more success in the majors, his projection will increase faster than Bryant’s will with the same success. The longer he can product an elite wRC+ with “normal” BABIPs, the more confident we are that it’s reflective of what he may do in the future. Nothing you don’t know, obviously, but it’s why Bryant could maintain the same lead in WAR throughout the season but have execs flip whose contract they would prefer (from Bryant to Alonso).

Essentially, Alonso’s projection is more elastic than Bryant’s.

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

Yeah I understand your point. I just think the rankings are reflecting that it is too early to reliably predict that Alonso will produce similarly enough to Bryant to make him the more valuable asset.

evo34Member since 2023
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

No one is arguing that Bryant is worse than Alonso. Do the math on the expected contracts if you want to claim that Bryant is a tremendously valuable asset (he’s not).

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  evo34

Sure, let’s say highest case scenario because I’m saying Bryant is going to give you 6 WAR a season. That would have Bryant jumping to around 20 million next year and then maybe as high as 30 million his last year, so right now you’d get him for about 56 million for 2.5 years at the highest cost. Using the WAR value calculator here at Fangraphs we can see that Bryant has averaged about $48 million in value per season. That comes out to him bringing $120 million in value over that time, over twice what the highest figure he would get paid is. Even if you scale it down to what he be worth in free agency and used Trout/Harper/Machado figures Bryant is still going to make over $30 million less before he hits free agency than he would cost.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

An “excess value” argument does not work in Bryant’s favor. Alonso will make around $1MM total in the 2 years that Bryant makes $56MM (your estimate). At a cost per win of $8MM, Bryant would need to be 7 WAR better. And then you have the 3 extra years of Alonso control to grapple with.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

it’s probably only a thing that affects valuation at the fringes, but maybe orgs figure that the Mets will screw this up in some way and break Alonso. That and Bryant’s projections are probably underselling his actual production

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

I agree with the Bryant-Alonso point, but that’s partly because Alonso is (I think) too low in this exercise, and by quite a bit. Also, even though I agree Bryant should be back around Freedman, but it’s not like Freeman is ranked too far down on this list.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If some of these conversations with execs happened 2 months ago, I could see that. With each month that Alonso produces, his perceived value increases. This reminds me a bit of Aaron Judge’s perceived value as his rookie season progressed. Initially, there were many skeptics caused partially by his 30% K rate, and partially by his lack of track record.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Werthless

Except Judge wound up something like #7 on this list! I don’t think Alonso belongs in the Top 10 on this list, but he definitely belongs higher than this.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Right, that’s my point. Judge was listed at #6 that year, and I think that was reflective of his trade value. I think there are more young talents in the game this year, which would push Alonso down somewhere into the teens.

Bryan
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

What if it is a rookie that has been below replacement level this season, has a wRC+ projection of 111, can’t really play defence all that well and is a bad base runner. It sounds crazy, but what if Vlad Jr isn’t on the list…if Pete Alonso is ranked 32nd, I am sure there’s an argument that Vlad isn’t on the list (although, admittedly, it may be a bad one)

james123Member since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  Bryan

I can’t imagine he’s not on the list. I thought he would’ve been in the 15-22 range or so, rather than top 10, but there’s no way he could be left off the list altogether. He was one of the best hitting prospects ever, and I don’t think a few months of mediocrity at the MLB level move the needle too much.

Bryan
6 years ago
Reply to  james123

I agree. My comment was more geared towards how I feel about Vlad’s ranking. I was/am a huge fan of Vlad, but I cannot see him as a Top 10 trade commodity in baseball right now. Not to exaggerate his tough start, but I just don’t think he’s done enough to improve his ranking from last season (other than some players falling off the list I suppose). In retrospect, Vlad probably wasn’t the best prospect in baseball heading into this season (Tatis JR). I agree with where you’d have him.

radivel
6 years ago
Reply to  Bryan

When dealing with Vlad Jr, you need to remember that he’s 20 and has over 6 years of team control to… age a little and figure it out. He’s smart and he’s going to figure it out. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when.

Remember that he’s 20. Acuna and Tatis Jr are spectacular prospects, but they are outliers in terms of performance, not the norm.

Bryan
6 years ago
Reply to  radivel

I certainly hope he does! He’s a special talent for sure. For the sake of this exercise, I wouldn’t consider age a major factor for Guerrero. His service time clock is ticking. If you were to compare Alonso (24) with 5 more years of control (3 years of arb) and Guerrero (20) with 6 more years (super 2 status and 4 years of arb), who would you prefer to have? Probably Guerrero, but not by as much as this ranking suggests, IMHO.

Bryan
6 years ago
Reply to  Bryan

I should add – I know it is extremely impressive that Guerrero is a big leaguer at 20 years old, and that would suggest he will be an elite talent. But that doesn’t mean he’s going to be putting up 155 wRC+ seasons at 24. Aaron Judge was just shy of 22 before he made his pro debut while Bryce Harper was in year 3 of MLB. Contracts aside, Judge is the better player right now.

Careless
6 years ago
Reply to  radivel

“Acuna and Tatis Jr are spectacular prospects, but they are outliers in terms of performance, not the norm.”

Well, yes, but we’re not dealing with the norm. We’re talking top 10 trade value

Shirtless George Brett
6 years ago
Reply to  Bryan

IIRC Vlad was in the top 20 last year and was not one of the “not returning” players for this year.

He wil be in the top 10.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

It must be Betts. He’s making $20 million this year and is going to go through arbitration for his last year of team control. It’s almost impossible to make this list with one year of team control left.

Also, leaving any of the other ones off this list would be a capital offense, and it would be a felony to have almost all of them outside the Top 10.

I’d still put Betts as at least having an honorable mention, though.

Joe Joe
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Betts has been added to HM list…probably in last hour or so.

WerthlessMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Yeah, it was about 10 minutes ago. I had just checked and he wasn’t there.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Well, that answers it!

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

Well, the answer is obvious; Trout is really #0.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

Edit: I was thinking of Aroldis Chapman, not Matt.

Careless
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

They get confused for each other all the time

Sonny LMember since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

What if it’s Vladito? What if industry has seen something in these two months that make them think Sano more than Cabrera? Tying myself in knots to think of why it’s not Betts. It’s probably Betts. It’s Betts.

Roger21
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

My guess: the 10 players other than Trout take spots 10 through 1, and Trout takes spot “0.” Trout is so much better than everyone else and his contract is so much more expensive than that of (almost) everyone else that he is essentially sui generis. His trade value can’t be defined by the same metrics as the trade value of other players, so he is beyond the parameters of this list.

Jetsy Extrano
6 years ago
Reply to  Roger21

Oho. Trout takes spot i, because his trade value is purely imaginary.

DH
6 years ago
Reply to  Jetsy Extrano

That’s complex

dodgerbleu
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad

Betts off altogether seems harsh. Wonder if they might’ve left Albies off. Principle or too anomalous or something..

AndrewMember since 2024
6 years ago

I think there is going to be a cheat at the end where Trout is listed as unrankable or ranking retired or something like that.

Pepper Martin
6 years ago

As a Yankee fan I get very nervous about the upcoming contracts for Sanchez, Judge, and Torres. Torres is obviously a bit further off, but Cashman’s not going to let any of the three walk. It’s hard to evaluate Judge and Sanchez, since Judge appears to be “one of the three or four best players in the game at all times when he’s actually playing but who knows how often that will be,” and Sanchez is a guy who seems to oscillate between “MVP candidate” and “maybe we’re better off starting Austin Romine” with expected stints on the DL every season. It’s very hard to evaluate those players and, while Cashman did a great valuation job on the extensions for Severino and Hicks so that they still seem like reasonable contracts even despite major injury problems in the first year… like, the Yankees still have Ellsbury on the books for multiple more years and so it’s not too long ago that they were signing ludicrous contracts to players who didn’t deserve them.

What’s a reasonable contract for Judge to buy out his arbitration years? I could see anything from 5 years and $100 million to 7 years and $200 million being seen as “reasonable” and honestly that makes me queasy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

I think this is just too high for Judge. Judge is amazing when he plays but his body is already starting to break down and he’s “only” got 3 years of control left (this is literally the only exercise where that isn’t enough). And the home runs mean he’ll probably get paid in arbitration. He belongs on this list, just maybe not this high.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, that was my feeling as well. The injury last year wasn’t his fault but it still happened and cost him significant time. On top of that, he’s missed significant time in 2016 and 2019 to oblique strains. And he had off season shoulder surgery in 2017. He obviously provides a lot of value when he’s healthy, but it’s hard to project him for more than 120 games on average.

Joey Butts
6 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Why even bring up the HBP last year? Like you said, it happened, but you’re admitting in the same breath that it’s not indicative of future injuries.

Judge has consistently posted at least a 7 fWAR/150 games pace over his career (obviously ignoring 2016). Assuming he misses about 40(!) games a year, that’s still 5.6 WAR/year. That’s still great! I can see an argument to move him below either of the two players behind him, but I can also see an argument to move him above the two players ahead of him. Particularly Lindor, who is already a 5-6 WAR player and has one less year of control.

Careless
6 years ago
Reply to  Joey Butts

“Assuming he misses about 40(!) games a year, that’s still 5.6 WAR/year. That’s still great! ”

Well, yes, but that’s more WAR and games than he’ll have in two of his three seasons

Joey Butts
6 years ago
Reply to  Careless

I cannot explain any more clearly that the time he missed last year was because of a HBP.

Goms
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Agreed. Judge may never have another season of 140 games played.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

Not sure what there is to be nervous about. By the time Sanchez and Judge hit free agency, the only contracts the Yankees currently have on the books are Stanton, Hicks, and Severino on a team option. Granted, the Yankees may sign them (+Torres) before they hit free agency, but it’s not like the Yankees don’t have the money.

Brock244
6 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

I mean… that’s a problem almost every great team faces. Astros with Correa, Altuve, Breg, Cole, Springer. Cubs with Bryant, Baez, Rizzo. Redsox with Betts, Bogaerts, Devers, Sale, ect.

tung_twista
6 years ago

10 war scenario for Ohtani is not happening.
He will typically take three days off from hitting every time he pitches.
So even 400 PA would be impossible unless they alter his usage or his pitching gets derailed.
In order to get 5 war from ~350 PA of DH, he would need to hit wrc+ 200.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

The most likely 10-war option for Ohtani remains a trade to a National League team

Ohtani’s value above -replacement level pitcher hitting- is enormous. In a full season he could pick up around 90-100 PAs as a pitcher (most pitchers get less than that, but he wouldn’t hit 9th, so he would get substantially more than they would, consistently getting 3 and sometimes 4 in a good start, instead of 2 per game most of the time).

So far this year, Zack Greinke has a 105 wRC+ in 50 plate appearances and that is worth 0.8 offensive WAR.

Ohtani’s 130-135 in double that would easily exceed the 3 win mark and might approach 4. If he also picks up plate appearances as a pinch-hitter in between starts, he would only need to put up 5 or so wins on the mound in order to approach 10, presuming he could be 1 WAR as a pinch hitter/DH in AL games.

jdbolickMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

The most likely 10-war option for Ohtani remains a trade to a National League team. Ohtani’s value above -replacement level pitcher hitting- is enormous.

There is only one replacement level for hitters, not separate ones by position. The way Fangraphs calculates N.L. pitcher hitting value is completely wrong, as evidenced by the fact that they don’t have a separate replacement level for catchers even though that position is clearly worse offensively than any non-pitchers and one is required in each lineup. Or think about it another way. If Fangraphs’ rationale was correct then Bruce Bochy would be making a mistake any time he pinch hits an actual replacement level batter for Madison Bumgarner, but he isn’t making a mistake because an actual replacement level batter performs significantly better at the plate than Bumgarner does. Bumgarner’s 20 wRC+ has not actually been worth 0.2 Wins Above Replacement, it’s simply been less negative than the average pitcher.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Yeah, you don’t understand how this works or what the positional adjustment is or does.

The effect of the positional adjustment runs (included in def) are to move the runs above average bar (and consequently the runs above replacement bar, since it’s calculated based on league scoring levels) up or down. Replacement level is based on a team winning percentage concept, and so you need to know league average RS and RA in order to calculate how many runs a .297 team would score and allow.

For example, the DH positional adjustment is -17.5 runs per 162 games. A player therefore needs to produce 17.5 offensive runs above average to equal out to 0 and be a league average player (this is roughly equivalent to a wRC+ of roughly 118ish.

On the other hand, a catcher can be many offensive runs below average and still come out as an above average player.

The positional adjustment is included in DEF and not in OFF because it is related to the position the player plays. However, I think this is somewhat misleading as it’s real function in the WAR calculation is to offset for the replacement level offensive production at each position. Per FG’s logic, it is a proxy for the relative value of each position due to scarcity (defensive spectrum, etc), but the reality is that it’s a simply a runs offset to move the needle to where it’s supposed to be at each position.

The positional adjustment for NL pitchers is so extremely high, and so rarely needed, that Fangraphs doesn’t even list it in their WAR glossary with the positions (those adjustments are in the positional WAR section, and the section on pitchers doesn’t include pitcher batting WAR at all).

You can see from looking at pitchers who have had strong hitting seasons how quickly they can add up to 1+ WAR, and that is in much smaller numbers of plate appearances than Shohei Ohtani would get.

This also makes sense: an NL team with Ohtani would essentially play every 5th game with the DH when their opponent doesn’t get the benefit of one. Pitcher hitting is so collossally awful that it lowers offense in the NL by approximately 6.5% league-wide (If you want to see this, look at league non-pitcher wRC+, which will be 100 for each league, and then look at the NL total offense. All the teams at 100 will drop to 93-94, unless they have an outlier pitcher this year like Greinke).

This doesn’t matter because there is never a game where one team has the DH rule and the other doesn’t: both teams play with the handicap in the NL, and without it in the AL.

But if you’re an NL team with Shohei Ohtani, you play 30 games a year with the AL rules while your opponent is still stuck with the NL rules.

There’s a reason that AL teams on average score like 0.4 runs per game more than NL teams, and it isn’t that their players are just better.

If Shohei Ohtani made a full season of starts, was hit in the top half of the order in those starts, and continued to hit like he has, he’d probably pick up 3.5 offensive WAR without even accounting for potential pinch-hitting appearances.

jdbolickMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Yeah, you don’t understand how this works or what the positional adjustment is or does.

Fangraphs’ own positional adjustment explanation disagrees with you: https://library.fangraphs.com/the-beginners-guide-to-the-positional-adjustment/ Nowhere in that explanation does it mention separate offensive replacement levels, it is entirely about differences in defensive runs saved.

The positional adjustment is included in DEF and not in OFF because it is related to the position the player plays. However, I think this is somewhat misleading as it’s real function in the WAR calculation is to offset for the replacement level offensive production at each position.

Your first sentence is correct while the second is not. There is no separate replacement level offensive production at catcher. The positional adjustment is a fixed amount that is applied to reflect the difficulty of playing a position defensively, it is not adjusted annually to reflect any changes in that position’s offensive performance. And as you said, the positional adjustment is applied to a player’s defensive value, not their offensive value. When a position player changes positions but keeps exactly the same performance at the plate, they don’t get a brand new replacement level for hitting, their WAR adjusts based on how well they perform defensively at the new position.

You can see from looking at pitchers who have had strong hitting seasons how quickly they can add up to 1+ WAR

Exactly, and that’s because Fangraphs calculates that value in completely the wrong way. As far as I know, no one besides Fangraphs does this because it’s so obviously wrong. Madison Bumgarner’s 20 wRC+ has not been worth 0.2 wins above replacement. His offensive value is well below replacement, which is precisely why pinch hitting for Bumgarner with an actual replacement level hitter would always be expected to increase the chance of a positive result.

You can see from looking at pitchers who have had strong hitting seasons how quickly they can add up to 1+ WAR, and that is in much smaller numbers of plate appearances than Shohei Ohtani would get.

Ohtani is actually a perfect example of what I’m talking about because Fangraphs currently credits him with 1.4 WAR for producing a 138 wRC+ over 245 plate appearances. If he was producing exactly the same offensive numbers but also pitching then Fangraphs would be giving him a vastly higher hitting WAR.

This also makes sense: an NL team with Ohtani would essentially play every 5th game with the DH when their opponent doesn’t get the benefit of one.

It would be like an N.L. team pinch hitting for the pitcher each time through the order with a 138 wRC+ batter.

There’s a reason that AL teams on average score like 0.4 runs per game more than NL teams

Correct, and it’s because pitchers as a group have stronglynegative value at the plate.

jdbolickMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I’ll use a different hypothetical to help you understand. If Fangraphs’ calculations are correct then a National League team would be better off trading for five ~110 wRC+ DHs and making them the new starting rotation since, according to Fangraphs, their production at the plate would actually be worth more offensive value than their ineptitude on the mount would produce negative value. But we all know that doing so would be disastrous and lead to substantially fewer wins.

Careless
6 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

you think Fangraphs projections would have random DHs at close to zero pitching WAR instead of something much worse

jdbolickMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  Careless

I said that they would produce negative value, not “close to zero.” It would probably be something around -1.5 to -2 WAR judging by dreadful seasons by actual pitchers. Meanwhile a full season of plate appearances from a ~110 wRC+ DH forced to pitch every fifth game would end up being around 2 WAR going by how FanGraphs calculates pitcher hitting value. But no team would ever conduct such an experiment because we all understand that doing so in the real world would produce strongly negative value because a ~110 wRC+ DH who isn’t pitching is worth much less than 2 WAR over that number of plate appearances.

Shirtless George Brett
6 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

5 wins on offence is certainly unlikely but I would not be at all shocked if he put up a 7 win season as a pitcher and 3 as a hitter (which is basically what he did last year in 367 PA’s) at some point in the next few years.

BROD
6 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

“10 war scenario for Ohtani is not happening.
He will typically take three days off from hitting every time he pitches.
So even 400 PA would be impossible unless they alter his usage or his pitching gets derailed.
In order to get 5 war from ~350 PA of DH, he would need to hit wrc+ 200.”

Are you sure about this? Because…

In his last full season in 2016, Ohtani led the NPB (144 games per season) with 10.4 WAR (4.6 WAR as a hitter in 382 PA, 5.8 WAR as a pitcher in 140 IP).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

So Francisco Lindor is a star and obviously the guy you want in 2020, but Gleyber Torres is projected for over twice as many wins over the life of the contract. Does that mean Torres belongs in the Top 10 or that Lindor belongs lower? Or maybe it’s just that there’s an enormous, yawning chasm between #12 and #13 on this list?

Joe Joe
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Generally, I would place guys with 2-3 years control lower on the list than they are currently. While WAR now should be valued more than WAR later, some times I think teams over value WAR now (This was much worse in the past).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

This is my instinct too.

MarioLopez
6 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

I think it depends on the reliability of the player. It isn’t a coincidence that the two highest ranked players with less than 3 years of control are Lindor and Bryant. They’re both remarkably consistent when healthy. Lindor is getting at least 5.5 WAR and Bryant 6 WAR every season they’re healthy. There is a lot of added value in dependability.

BaseballBreaksYourHeart
6 years ago
Reply to  MarioLopez

While Torres is projected for twice as many wins I think a lot of the difference in value is from how hard it is to predict that far into the future. Valuing WAR now more than WAR later and valuing WAR concentrated in one position (i.e a 10 WAR player is worth more than five 2 WAR guys) explains some of the difference. But, I think most of the difference is how big the error bars are on these projections 5+ years out. Here are the top players by WAR in 2014 that were under 28 (don’t have access to projections from back then, but figured young + good is a decent enough proxy) and their 2019 WAR so far:

1. Trout (6.5)
2. Lucroy (-0.3)
3. Posey (1.4)
4. McCutchen (1.6)
5. Stanton (0.2)
6. Brantley (2.8)
7. Rendon (3.5)
7. Carlos Gomez (-0.1)
9. Josh Donaldson (2.7)
10. Puig (1.1)

In the non-Trout (aka for mortals) category only 3 out of 9 are still good.

EasyenoughMember since 2016
6 years ago

In this era where teams intend to win for a few years and then re-stock. There’s additional value in getting an extra win per year for 2..5 years and then assessing where the team is. That optionality has a lot of value. People even buy options!

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago

Under 28 is not young; it’s just not old. You should repeat this with under 26 (or 25). Most of the players that are bad now were 26-27 then.

BaseballBreaksYourHeart
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Here are the top players under the age of 25 in 2014, their WAR in 2014 and the WAR they have produced over the next 4.5 years:

1. Trout (8.3, 42.2)
2. Stanton (6.8, 17.4)
3. Rendon (6.4, 21.8)
4. Puig (5.5, 8.3)
5. Rizzo (5.3, 19.4)
6. Altuve (5.2, 24.8)
7. Heyward (4.7, 11.2)
8. Starling Marte (4.5, 13.8)
9. Marcell Ozuna (4.5, 13.4)
10. Freeman (4.5, 21.7)

Torres is on pass for about 5 WAR. If we exclude Trout, Stanton, and Rendon (i.e limit it to 4.5-5.5 WAR) the average 4.5 year WAR is 16. But, my point is there is a pretty big spread there, especially in the later years. I would guess that the accuracy of predicting 2 year WAR is much better.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

As Kiley has discussed a lot there is a lot of value to concentrating value in one position: the gap between Lindor’s 6.5 wins and, say, Torres at 5 is ‘only’ 1.5 wins, but teams that would want Lindor are probably not replacing an actual 0 at shortstop.

If you replaced a 2 win player with Torres and Lindor, you get 4.5 wins from adding Lindor and 3 wins from adding Torres.

There’s also a lot more stability to Lindor: he’s got almost no meaningful injury history and he’s produced at the same level for a long time.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I actually am a very strong proponent of this position that Kiley has taken, but we’re talking about over double the total value here. How much of a premium to 3.6 wins (added over 2 years) are we talking about here? Enough to put him roughly equal to the guy who is projected to put up another 15.1 wins after that?

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

One feature I wish that the Fangraphs-hosted projection systems offered are percentile-outcomes the way that PECOTA has traditionally provided (showing you the spread between the best and worst case outcomes). I suspect part of this is driven by the length of track record and the volatility of those projections.

Lindor seems like one of the most stable players in this exercise, and Gleyber has like 20% of the career PAs and younger players are typically more variable.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I agree about the percentile outcome.
The median might differ by “only” 1.5, but the bottom 25% outcome for players like Torres is going to be much worse than 25% outcome for Lindor.
And it’s not like Torres has a higher ceiling, either.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

My concern with Torres is the Orioles suddenly getting a better pitching staff

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago

Thank you guys very much for clearing up the Scherzer financials.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
6 years ago

What a turn around for Moncada.

Obviously he was just 22/23 but he just looked like someone we all overhyped and you could look at his minor league strikeout rates (30% in AA then 28% when he went back to AAA after his debut) and say “okay yeah we probably should have seen this coming a bit” and even in his FanGraphs capsule before the season it says “Aside from a small correction in HR/FB%, nothing in his profile suggests improvements are imminent.”

Now he looks like a perennial 3-4 win guy who is going to occasionally look like the best 3B in baseball over a few week stretch (alongside Devers).

In the age of OBP, if we saw a guys walk rate going down each year I think we’d point to that as an issue, but his new approach is obviously working for him. Go to his Statcast page and click the “show random video” button then switch it to home runs. The ones he is hitting his year are just crushed.

Moncada is on a division rival of my favorite team, but he’s so fun to watch, like Buxton (who also has seen a turnaround this year…when not hurt).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Is this where we get to argue about Moncada? Let’s argue about Moncada. I think he definitely belongs on this list, but it’s pretty crazy putting him this high given that he’s riding a sky-high BABIP and the projections don’t see him as being anywhere near this good. Guys who strike out this much and run this high a BABIP better be hitting a zillion homers and walking a lot like Gallo because it is just too easy for this profile to fall apart.

I would trade Moncada for about 10 guys behind Moncada for him in a heartbeat and not worry about it, and potentially as many as another 10 guys on top of that if I did some soul-searching. Those tools are great, but it’s not that easy to see him consistently turning in 4-5 win seasons like this. Honestly, I think he’s notably behind Giolito on his own team, in terms of who I’d want (although that’s partially because I think Giolito got robbed and should slot in somewhere in the twenties on this list).

Brock244
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

To be fair to Moncada, he does profile as a high Babip hitter with his hard hit rates and speed. Perhaps not this high, but it’s hard not to see him as at least a 3 win player

OtterMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

At first I thought Moncada was too high too, but other than Jose Ramirez, I’m not sure I see a slam dunk case from a position player. Moncada’s got an extra year of control over Turner (and two on Baez) and a better bat (though different positions obviously). Bryant’s been better this year, but two fewer years of control. If you are buying Polanco can sustain this, maybe you put him ahead. Ketel Marte is ahead of Moncada, and I’d personally buy that Moncada is more likely to repeat/improve on this year than Marte.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

So I am more or less convinced that Snell belongs in the same tier as Bieber and Marquez (and Nola) in terms of future expected performance based on the writeup and ZiPs projections, but given the extra year of control for Bieber and Marquez I think it’s pretty clear who I’d rather have an it’s not too close. Look at the projections; Bieber and Marquez beat Snell every single year. Aaron Nola also beats Snell too, although to a lesser extent, and he has a similar contract (it makes sense that Nola is a better bet than Snell going forward, because Nola’s peripherals were better in 2018 and his RA9 is way more impressive given their respective defenses and ballparks).

I would probably swap Nola and Snell on this list and not think twice about it, although upon some reflection I’d rotate Snell to Berrios’s spot, Berrios to Nola, and put Nola where Snell is.

evo34Member since 2023
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

No one has ever tested the accuracy of Zips 5-year projections, and their single-season projections consistently lose to the competition (Steamer and the Bat, mainly). So…I wouldn’t put too much stock in its ability to forecast young pitchers.

Specifically, some issues with the guys you prefer:

Nola’s control has taken a significant step backward this year.
Bieber only has 220 career IP, and against one of the weakest schedules in baseball.

Both lack elite velo, which is fine for now, but very unlikely to support ace performance over the next five years as the FB loses a tick. I’m not trying to glorify Snell either, since he has some velo loss issues this year, but he has at least demonstrated more upside. An 11-12 K/9 rate in the AL East is not something usually observed.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  evo34

Agree with this. Nola was a breakout candidate coming into last year and it certainly happened, but he has certainly taken a step back.

Regarding Bieber, I don’t think this point can be overstated. Think of who he faces! If you threw in some other generic RHP with K upside in more difficult divisions (Thornton, Bundy, Mahle, either Gray , Richards, etc) what would we think of them? I didn’t look at any of their contracts, but for the sake of the exercise are any/all of those pitchers significantly worse than he is? Maybe, but probably closer than you think.

Baseball Anagrams
6 years ago

2019 Anagram Value: #20 to #11

#20 Kellen Slab
#19 A Boxed Stranger
#18 Anaconda Mayo
#17 Telemarket
#16 Ohio Hash Nite
#15 Aura DeJong
#14 Al Served Fear
#13 Frodo Ran Clinics
#12 Leg Store Barry
#11 Re Buehrle Walk

Goms
6 years ago

I think Anaconda Mayo is far too low. Also that feels like a reference to snake sperm.

Monsignor Martinez
6 years ago
Reply to  Goms

Every day this week, I scroll straight to the Anagram comment and try to unscramble these. I noticed #12 should be “Leg Store Berry. ” Nonetheless, awesome work, whoever you are.

Jimmy Jack
6 years ago

Jeremy’s iron

Jetsy Extrano
6 years ago

Nobody goes to Cleveland for their hash, I’ll tell you that.

Careless
6 years ago

A Boxed Stranger at 19? Outrageous!

rtcollin
6 years ago

I’ll take a stab.
10. Albies
9. Soto
8. Chapman
7. Bregman
6. Trout
5. Vladdy Jr.
4. Yelich
3. Bellinger
2. Tatis Jr.
1. Acuna

Anon21Member since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

I think Albies ends up in the top 5. Having a good year and putting some of the concerns from his 2018 second half to rest, but more importantly that contract is just absurd.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

not your fault but my brain defaults to Aroldis Chapman when I see Chapman, and I’m like “A RELIEVER WITH A PLAYER OPTION, REALLY” before cognitive control takes over and I’m like “oh right”

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I just did this elsewhere in the thread, exact same thing!

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

the greatest trick the St. Louis devil magic ever pulled was making us forget they exist

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Matt Chapman isn’t a Cardinal

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

THAT’S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
(no, no he is not)

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

And as a westcoaster it is unbelievably tilting when Eastcoast baseball fans think the -world revolves around them. Matt Chapman put up 6.5 war last year. He is on pace to put up over 7 this year. He cut his k% by 5.4%! He increased his walk rate by 1.5%! His defense is like something you have never seen. Gun to my head you tell me to pick the player who puts up the most WAR besides Mike Trout next 5 years forward o I don’t pick Chapman. But he is damn close and easy top 5 imo. Despite being 26 already, he has a far better per game war than either Bellinger or Yelich over the course of his career, and while you can easily rank those two over him he has a very good argument for rounding out the top 5-6.

Fatalotti
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

Of course it’ll mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, but this will be Trout’s 8th year in the top 10 of this exercise. There are great players (like really great players) we’ve seen fall out of the top 10 after a year or two. Trout, if he continues to pile up 10 win seasons, might be in the top ten for an entire decade. That is wild. I don’t see it happening, as he’d be a 29 year old on a ridiculously expensive contract in 2021, but I can see him making it into the top ten next year, for sure.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatalotti

I mean, Mike Trout is -the best player ever through his age-, so it isn’t surprising that he doesn’t behave like other players.

Whether he ends up the best player of all time by the end of his career is perhaps more doubtful, because the folks who live up there have such ..atypical..aging curves, but thusfar Trout is not just the best player in baseball: he has had one of, if not the, best careers ever by a player who is still under the age of 30.

Graph #2 here is the one that is really illustrative.

https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=10155,1008315,1008082,1011327,1109

I mean, -Willie Mays- didn’t pass Trout’s present WAR total until he was 30!

But he also put up a 6 win season as a 40 year old.

Trout may not be able to do that, but for the moment, he’s nearly unprecedented (it’s really just Mickey).

Fatalotti
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

If you add Ty Cobb to the graph, he almost blots out Trout for the last 3 years.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Do we have reason to believe that the best players of all-time won’t age differently? They basically always ever have continued to age gracefully.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

I would find it downright shocking if people are still sticking Soto that far down the list. The guy cannot legally buy a beer in this country, looks like the next Joey Votto, now has a major league track record showing his hitting isn’t a fluke, and is yet still so new that Spotrac hasn’t updated his page. The ZiPs projections on him are some of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen from a projection system. What more does anyone want?

I would probably drop Vlad Jr. a bit too. He’s Top 10 but maybe closer to the back of the list than the front, given his lack of a major league track record. Maybe swap Albies and Soto with Vlad Jr? And I think Tatis Jr. probably belongs lower (but still in the Top 10) since what he’s doing this year is probably going to look very different than what he’s doing in the future.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I imagine you have to have some aging concerns about a player who is 20 and lacks the athleticism to play outside a corner, and in fact is already playing below average defense in the corners by all available measurements.

The best case for Juan Soto is probably Manny Ramirez. And that is amazing, but it’s narrow and you don’t have to go too far down the scale from the best case scenario to get something that is merely good.

Soto is playing to a -10 UZR/150 as a 20 year old in left field! That’s almost unplayably bad defense already. How long before he is a DH/1b only player?

Being David Ortiz is great, but being David Ortiz when you are 22 does not bode well for the length of your career.

Brewtown_Kev
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

It’s way premature to suggest a 20 year old who played only 8 games in the high minors before being called up is “David Ortiz” in the field. Soto is still very young, and he’s getting the reps he needs to improve his defense “on the job” in the majors, rather than in AA and AAA. Folks who have been paying attention can already see that he’s making improvements. Maybe he ends up at 1st after a while nonetheless, but we’re not talking about a DH type player here.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

What people want is for Soto to be more than a 1B playing in the OF.

But … and this is purely the eye test, mind you … his defense in left has gone from “Oh God please don’t hit it that way” to “Wow, he’s actually not awful anymore”. There’s room to imagine that he’ll get better yet out there and not slide over to 1B as soon as many thought.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

For some reason, in the past, guys like Manny Ramirez and Gary Sheffield kept getting run out there in the corner outfield long after they should have been shifted to first base. But I (and probably the rest of us, too) don’t think we need to repeat those mistakes.

DDD
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s funny you mention Manny. Last fall I was telling a friend that Soto looked like him out there. Manny made some very comical attempts at fielding balls. Imagine those plays with some Billy Preston back drop music (with a few revisions to the lyrics). “Will he go round in circles, will he fall down like a toddler in his crib.” 😉 He was an incredible hitter – a happy-go-lucky guy that was always fun to watch, at bat or in the field!

b0ndsj0ns
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

The insanity of the Albies deal makes him much higher than that. The pre arb stars on that list are going to make insanely more than him thru those years, then toss in 2 team options at 7 million a piece at the end.

OtterMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  rtcollin

wRC+ this year
Albies – 107
Soto – 143
Chapman – 141
Bregman – 148
Trout – 190
Vlad Jr. – 89
Yelich – 181
Bellinger – 185
Tatis Jr. – 154
Acuna – 125 (143 last year)

Obviously position and defense matter greatly, but Vlad and Albies contract/control situations really stand out looking at it like this.

seprotzmann
6 years ago

Where does Sale rank in Zips 2020-24 projection among the second tier of Snell, deGrom, Marquez, Bieber, and Nola?

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  seprotzmann

20-22 are available on Sale’s player page, at least. WAR goes 5.9, 5.5, 5.1, with steady performance but declining innings totals (down to 160ish in 2022), and an opt-out after that season.

I suspect Sale’s in their vicinity without the opt.

gregqd
6 years ago

Judge’s ranking seems way too high, particularly if you compare him with Alonso. Judge is currently the better player, but the projections don’t see the gap as all that large (half a WAR per season over the next three years). I find it hard to believe that 0.5 WAR per year over next three years is substantially (rank 15 vs 32) more valuable than Alonso’s two additional years of control at league min (assuming Alonso’s arb numbers will be comparable to Judge’s). Add in that Alonso will be a year younger at the end of his contract and hasn’t yet established an injury track record like Judge, and this just doesn’t add up.

radivel
6 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

I agree.
Do you really think that if the Angels called up the Yanks and said, “We want Judge, here’s Ohtani”, the Yanks think about that for 2 seconds? They say yes so fast, it’d be like swinging out of your shoes. They say yes faster than AA did that time the Angels traded for Vernon Wells.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

Alonso doesn’t have a track record, period though. Alonso has 400 at bats at wRC+ 155. Judge has 1,400 at bats at wRC+ 155. The pitchers have had time to adjust to Judge, and he’s still proven himself to be among the very best hitters in the game. Judge is also a better defender at a more difficult position.

Would the Yankees trade Judge straight up for Alonso? No.

gregqd
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

The Yankees are a weird case, though, because compared with the rest of the league, they don’t care as much about the cheap years of control. By the same token, the Mets wouldn’t trade Alonso straight up for Judge. As Kiley said at the outset, this exercise is intended to ignore the teams at the extreme ends of the payroll spectrum and focus on teams in the middle. I think you are grossly undervaluing those two additional years of “free” Alonso. My point is not that Alonso is Judge’s equal; rather that they are quite close and Judge’s ranking here seems out-of-whack high.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

OK fair enough. I guess where I really differ is that I don’t actually see them as being quite close with respect to ability. To me, the following suggests that Judge’s floor is something like Alonso’s ceiling.

2019 Alonso = 5.25 WAR/600PA

2019 Judge = 6.87 WAR/600PA
2018 Judge = 6.14 WAR/600PA
2017 Judge = 7.26 WAR/600PA

And Mookie Betts for context:

2019 Betts = 4.30 WAR/600PA
2018 Betts = 10.16 WAR/600 PA
2017 Betts = 4.47 WAR/600 PA

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

If the Mets were expected to be legit contenders for the next couple of seasons, then they probably should say yes to Alonso for Judge.

Joey Butts
6 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

Judge is projected for 13.5 WAR. Only eight 1B have put up more fWAR over the last five years. Only 4.5 have put up more than 3 fWAR over that time (enough where the total is more attractive than Judge’s immediate impact) (Matt Carpenter was really more of a 3B). That’s the sort of player you expect Alonso to be over the next five years. If that’s a fair expectation, the problem is clearly with Alonso’s ranking, not Judge’s.

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago

You could never have known this beforehand, but given Trout’s aversion to free agency and what a huge value he gave up signing for *only* $370 million new dollars, you could argue that Trout as a one and a half season rental would be #1 if he hadn’t signed that extension.

paulkrugman
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Who’s to say he isn’t #1 even after signing that extension?

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  paulkrugman

Oh, I think he is #2, behind Acuña, but it’s very close. I think there is a big gap between #2 and #3. Trout and Acuña likely offer $200 million-plus in surplus value and they are the kind of players that get paid for it, too. Albies might be projecting by Zips to have similar surplus value, but it’s not the profile that gets paid and he’s going to be dinged for his stature. None of the other players are close on surplus value imo.

Eric M. VanMember since 2019
6 years ago

What folks are missing on Devers is that he was slugging .298 on April 14 over 65 PA, with a .296 xwOBA, and had been below replacement level. He then went back to the open stance he had as a rookie (a fairly dramatic change), and if you prorate the subsequent WAR over the full season, he’s 5th in MLB in fWAR, projecting to about 7.5 over a full season. I don’t think that .020 of wOBA – xwOBA on the season reduces that to 3-4 WAR true talent. And in fact, his .387 xwOBA since then nearly matches his .392 wOBA on the year, so the ball-in-play luck and non-predictive “slow start” are a near wash.

He’s also shown defensive tools that project him as a +5 to +10 defender (something I’ve been saying since I saw him in high-A). I’ve been watching baseball for 57 years now and no one I’ve seen can match his ability to make extremely hard contact within the strike zone (as soon as I update my metric for that, I’ll post the numbers).

I don’t think that anyone who watches him regularly believes he is anything other than a generational or even historic hitting talent. An entertaining argument that we’ve known this since he was a rookie: https://qr.ae/TWnwny.

Brock244
6 years ago
Reply to  Eric M. Van

Yeah I’d be surprised if Devers “only” is a 3.5 win player. His combination of hard hit rate(has most hard hits in baseball), all fields power, and lack of strikeouts for his age is honestly incredible.

I remember Dave Cameron in 2017 saying he thought Devers would be one of the best hitters of his generation. Honestly outside of Guerrero Jr, I’m not sure there’s another player in his age range with that type of offensive potential. I think he settles in as a 5ish WAR player.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Brock244

I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, since Devers looks like he’s going to be a stud for a very long time. But Soto is raking and younger than him, Acuna’s power-speed combo gives him a lot of offensive potential, and Bellinger is a little over a year older and is sporting a 185 wRC+.

Those four, plus Vlad Jr., are going to be lighting up the league for a long time.

Brock244
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah I was originally thinking of Guerrero/Devers/Soto as sort of the “next generation of elite sluggers/hitters”. Surprised how young Bellinger still is, obviously he’s on the top of that list.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  Eric M. Van

There are only a handful of players that you could justify projecting as a +10 defender. Devers is not one of them.

London Yank
6 years ago

For those who are interested, here is an updated plot of the 2018 to 2019 change in performance and luck plot for each of these players:
comment image

I notice a huge jump in performance for Rafael Devers accompanied by a large increase in “luck”. BABIP variation is not entirely luck though, it also has to do with ball striking tendencies. If Devers is striking the ball consistently harder this year, then it is probably worth believing in the performance change.

Gleyber Torres and Xander Bogaerts have both taken big steps forward so far, and it doesn’t seem to be driven by luck.

What is going on with Francisco Lindor? A big step back in performance, despite a modest increase in luck.

Blake Snell has been massively unlucky, considering he seems to otherwise be performing about the same as last year.

radivel
6 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

Check out Devers if exclude all the games he’s played vs the Jays, lol. He’s eaten my poor team alive this year.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  radivel

Ha! But those are good results against top pitching. If anything we should weight those at bats more!

sgp2204
6 years ago
Reply to  radivel

It’d probably look similar to Torres without Baltimore.

Sonny Price
6 years ago

Buehler’s BB% is absolutely stunning for such a young flamethrower, especially when you consider he is still not too far removed from surgery on his arm. I love watching him work.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  Sonny Price

That Buehler came into last year and just added new pitches that were immediately both good and commanded was completely ridiculous to watch.

You went from a kid with 3 plus pitches and upside as an above average starter to one with 4 or 5 and upside as a generational pitcher.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

he’s an obvious #1 starter…. but he’s the only one on this list (at least according to the writers). REALLY interesting. TNSTAAnumberonestarter anymore. maybe..

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I don’t think he’s an obvious #1 starter (league ace), but I’m not sure there are any right now except Scherzer and deGrom. And Bieber is actually ahead of Buehler in value this year (belieb it!). But Buehler is young and he’s cheap and his stuff is awesome, so we all feel comfortable projecting on him.

mikejuntMember
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Its less that there arent any and more that the ones we have are more or less being paid market rates.

bookbookMember since 2024
6 years ago

Ketel Marte, Ohtani, LIndor, Rendon, pshaw. You can have the one who got away. The next ten are all Mariners (and that pesky Flounder fellow from the city that wishes it was Los Angeles in the soon-to-be-underwater swamps of California.)

OTMHeartBBCMember since 2025
6 years ago

i would laugh the GM out of the room if i was offered Devers Moncada or Marte for Wander

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  OTMHeartBBC

I would, too. But that is mostly because I’m just some random lawyer and not a MLB GM. Why on Earth would a GM offer me anything? Why is he even talking to me? How’d he get my number to set up this meeting? Why did I even go?

shaq_diesel
6 years ago

I still haven’t seen a player the Rays would trade Franco for.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

That is at least partially because of the Rays and how they value team control, but I would think that well over half the teams in the league would swap Franco for Devers, Buehler, Torres, or Ohtani. I’m less certain about the others, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see them swap him for Bieber or Marquez either.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
6 years ago

I looked on the right in the “in this article” box and did not see Rafael Devers name. I wasn’t surprised because I have him clearly in the top 10, but then found him at #14 and was disappointed. I have watched this game of baseball since my first visit to Fenway in 1948 and the transformation that has occurred in Devers this year is like no other that I can remember. Who knows, it may just be a hot streak but, as the link in the article shows, he is hitting the ball hard all the time. Just last night in the 1st inning he hit a rope directly at the right fielder, then followed that up with a HR to left and 2 more line drives that came off the bat in excess of 111 mph. Today he hit a 411′ HR into the stiff breeze that was blowing strongly in from RF. The Sox announcers estimated that the shot would have exceeded 450′. In addition, his defense, very shaky at best throughout last season and the first month of this year, has been a revelation. If this is the real Devers, his bWAR is already 3.6 for this year, and with 4 years of control, then he belongs near the top of the list.

OtterMember since 2016
6 years ago

“We’re honored and very excited that James Shields made the top ten this year.” – Rick Hahn.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago

“Once you take Scherzer off the table as the best pitcher in baseball, ZiPS essentially has Snell, Jacob deGrom, Marquez, Bieber, and Nola tied for second among those pitchers over the 2020-2024 term. Snell is the only lefty in the group, he’s on pace for his fourth straight year of 31 regular season starts, his velo has been stable year-to-year at an average of 95.7 mph, his 3.12 FIP over his last 58 starts is a sustained run of elite performance, and his extension is for reasonable money, for exactly as long as I’d be predicting No. 2 or 3 starter performance from him.”

The number two pitcher projected in the game is a #2 starter?

TKDCMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  carter

Perhaps he meant #2-3 in all of baseball? Otherwise, yes, nonsense.

Moranall
6 years ago

Why are you understating Ketel Marte’s potential? He is going to get plenty of value from just his defense (2B, SS, or CF). But he’s also a really good hitter:
xwOBA: 79th percentile
xBA: 92nd percentile
xSLG: 84th percentile

This is a 25-year-old elite athlete that is a plus defender, has fantastic contact ability (.322 BABIP, sub-14% K%, xBA of .295), he clearly has plus power (just look at all of his monster homers plus his xSLG of .502). The only thing holding him back is his not-so-stellar walk rate. But everything else is real. That’s a lot higher than a “3-4 WAR” player.

And the power is real – he has plus plus raw power (3rd longest HR in the majors and the 7th highest max exit velocity). The issue with him has been hitting with power consistently, which he has vastly improved on in less than two years. He had issues with hitting too many grounders and having no power from the left side… well he’s hitting more flyballs (up 7% from last year) and has drastically improved his power from the left side. He’s still a better power hitter from the right side but the margin is narrowing.

Careless
6 years ago

re: Bogaerts
So a website that think that the $/war rate is going to be exceeding $10 million in the next few years also thinks there’s a 50-50 chance a guy under 30 projected to have 3 WAR seasons in the future would opt out of a 2 year $40 million contract?

That really does not make sense.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
6 years ago

How quickly the winds change. It wasn’t long ago that I was reading what an awful contract the Diamondbacks gave to Ketel Marte.