A Candidate-by-Candidate Look at the 2021 Hall of Fame Election Results
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2021 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
The surge via which the Baseball Writers Association of America elected a record 22 Hall of Fame candidates over a seven-year span is over, as the voters pitched a shutout on Tuesday, their second in the past decade, fourth since the return to annual balloting in 1966, and ninth since the Hall’s inception in 1936. Collectively the 401 voters who participated showed enough ambivalence towards the top four returning candidates — Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Omar Vizquel, all of whom have non-performance-related marks against them that were increasingly aired during the cycle — to keep them on the outside looking in, and that ambivalence spilled over to the other 21 candidates on the slate. The 5.87 votes per ballot was the lowest average since 2012, and the 14 blank ballots sent in was a record.
There’s more than just the top-line results to chew on, however, so as promised, here’s my candidate-by-candidate breakdown of the entire slate.
A.J. Burnett, Michael Cuddyer, Dan Haren, Nick Swisher, Shane Victorino (1st year on ballot, 0.0%)
There’s no shame in being shut out on a Hall of Fame ballot. The check box next to these players’ names is the reward for their unique, impressive careers, and with every year that I do this, my appreciation for the endurance, perseverance, and good luck it takes just to get to this point grows. As Vin Scully liked to remind viewers, “They also serve who only stand and wait.”
Barry Zito (1st year on ballot, 0.2%)
The only newcomer to the 2021 ballot who won a major award, Zito, the AL’s 2002 Cy Young winner, received a single courtesy vote from an as-yet-unidentified writer. Once upon a time, before ballots were so overrun that even deserving candidates like Kenny Lofton and Jim Edmonds fell victim to the Five Percent Rule, this was a common and widely-accepted gesture.
LaTroy Hawkins (1st, 0.5%)
USA Today’s Bob Nightengale was one of two voters to include Hawkins, recalling how he felt as a young writer when Hal McRae was shut out of the voting in 1993. “There was no player I respected and admired more as a young beat reporter covering the Kansas City Royals than McRae,” he wrote. “I vowed that if a time ever came again that someone meant that much to me and was that respected by his teammates, peers, coaches, managers, and yes, writers, I would vote for him — no matter how his numbers looked on a Hall of Fame ballot.”
Indeed, Hawkins has a near-sterling reputation within the game, and such was his staying power that he spent 21 years in the majors with 11 different teams, making more pitching appearances than all but nine hurlers. Again, no harm, no foul, particularly when the courtesy vote comes with a coherent explanation.
Aramis Ramirez (1st, 1.0%)
The only one of the four votes who published a ballot that included Ramirez did so anonymously, well before the Hawkins and Zito support came to light — perhaps out of fear of the criticism they would receive. Better to own that vote, like Nightengale did.
Tim Hudson (1st, 5.2%)
Zito didn’t make the cut, but the ballot’s other member of the A’s Moneyball-era Big Three did, by exactly one vote, that after finishing at 3.4% in the ballots published via Ryan Thibodaux’s indispensable Hall of Fame Ballot Tracker prior to the announcement of the results. While I do think that we should loosen the standards a bit when it comest to starting pitching and hope to have something JAWS-related on the subject in the not-too-distant future, I also think that the line is still above the ballot’s trio of Hudson (84th in JAWS), Mark Buehrle (90th), and Andy Pettitte (91st). That said, among the trio’s supporters in the Tracker are two longtime pals, my former Baseball Prospectus colleague Christina Kahrl as well as the man who helped turn JAWS from an obscurity to an election-season staple, Baseball-Reference’s Sean Forman. I’ll have to pick their brains to see what swayed them on these pitchers, hopefully over an adult beverage in safer times.
Bobby Abreu (2nd, 8.7%, up 3.2%)
After making the cut with just two votes to spare, Abreu’s share inched upwards, but he’s still in no-mans land as far as precedents for election by the writers given his low share. I was one of the voters who gave him a boost; in comparing him to two of the ballot’s other current right fielders (Gary Sheffield and Sammy Sosa) and the recently-elected Vladimir Guerrero, he stacks up as the best all-around player, and I had room on my ballot to reward him for that.
Torii Hunter (1st, 9.5%)
Hunter more than doubled his support from the 4.4% that was in the Tracker pre-announcement, so his candidacy will proceed. I don’t foresee a Scott Rolen-like rise — the third baseman debuted with 10.2% in 2017 and rose to 52.9% this time around — because the defensive metrics don’t back Hunter’s nine Gold Gloves the way they do Rolen’s eight. That said, the conditions are much more favorable for Hunter than they were for another lean-year candidate who comes to mind: Bernie Williams, whose 9.6% made him the only debutant on the 2012 ballot to survive. He crashed to 3.3% in The Great Candidate Flood of 2013; Hunter should have smoother sailing ahead even if he only lingers at the bottom of the ballot.
Mark Buehrle (1st, 11.0%)
Buehrle received the highest share of any of the first-year candidates, which isn’t saying much except that he does have some breathing room as far as sticking around. He gained substantial support from the Chicago market; a quick-and-dirty scan of the Tracker tells me that at least eight of the 18 public votes for Buehrle thus far came either from Windy City-affiliated writers. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
If you’re holding out hope for Buehrle’s election, thus far the lowest first-year shares by modern-era candidates (1966 onward) elected by the writers are those of Bert Blyleven (17.0%) from the period when candidates had 15 years of eligibility, and Larry Walker (20.3%) from when their window was cut to 10 years.
Andy Pettitte (3rd, 13.7%, up 2.4%)
A similar scan tells me that nine of the 34 votes logged for Pettitte in the Tracker thus far can be trace to the Tri-State area, but I may be undercounting when it comes to past affiliations. Anyway, Pettitte has gained fewer than five points in two cycles since debuting, and while he appears to have enough support to persist on the ballot, he’s not making significant headway, as whatever benefit he gains from his big postseason numbers is offset by his appearance in the Mitchell Report.
Sammy Sosa (9th, 17.0%, up 3.1%)
Slammin’ Sammy will complete his full 10-year tenure on the ballot, though of course it’s worth recognizing that the change from 15 years to 10 that was put in place by the Hall in 2014 was in direct reaction to the prospect of PED-linked candidates gaining entry and dominating the election-season conversation until they do. They’re still 0-fer when it comes to players linked to the 2003 survey test, the Mitchell Report, or MLB disciplinary action, but on the other hand, we’re still talking about all of this, and we might have at least another decade of such debates if Alex Rodriguez, who becomes eligible next year, similarly completes his 10-year run without reaching 75%.
Manny Ramírez (5th, 28.2%, down -0.0003%)
Ramirez’s vote total was one higher than last year, but with four more ballots, he slipped infinitesimally, technically making him the only candidate besides Vizquel to lose ground.
Jeff Kent (8th, 32.4%, up 4.9%)
Kent broke 30% for the first time, a year after breaking 20% for the first time. That’s not nothing. Of the 32 candidates who received vote shares in the 30-35% range since 1966 and either weren’t elected by the writers or aren’t still on the ballot, 17 were eventually elected by a Veterans or Era Committee. For a candidate whose case appeals more via traditional stats — most homers by a second baseman, et cetera — than advanced ones, that bodes reasonably well for Kent.
Andruw Jones (4th, 33.9%, up 14.5%)
The candidacy of the 10-time Gold Glove winner Jones is in even better shape than that of Kent after back-to-back years of double-digit gains, including the fourth-largest of this cycle; two years ago, he was at just 7.5%. After benefitting from the ballot’s traffic thinning out, he’s only a little bit behind where Edgar Martinez (35.9%) and Tim Raines (37.5%) were through the fourth year of their 10-year candidacies, but well ahead of Walker (10.2%), with 15-year window candidates Blyleven, Duke Snider, and Bruce Sutter in the 23-28% range through four years as well. In other words, Jones has a chance to be elected by the writers eventually, and probably even a stronger one of being elected by committee.
Gary Sheffield (7th, 40.6%, up 10.1%)
Shef couldn’t match last year’s 16.9% gain, but he still made the cycle’s fifth-largest jump and has essentially tripled his support in a two-year span. He should benefit from next year’s arrival of David Ortiz; the pair have comparatively minor PED-related dings that involve some level of deniability (you’ll have to dig those out of my previously published pieces for reasons of space here), and similar OPS+ (140 to Big Papi’s 141) across 10,000+ PA, but Sheffield has the higher WAR even with the lousy defense (60.5 to 55.3). Of course, Ortiz has the postseason edge and the ambassador-type stuff, which could speed his entry, but based on where Raines (46.1%), Martinez (43.4%), and Walker (22.0%) were through seven years, I now think that Sheffield has a real shot at a 10th-year election, and if not that, then via an Era Committee.
Todd Helton (3rd, 44.9%, up 15.7%)
Benefitting from the election of Walker, his former teammate in Colorado, Helton posted the ballot’s second-largest gain, and like Jones and Sheffield, his second double-digit one in a row. He’s not only ahead of where Raines/Martinez/Walker were through year three — Martinez’s 36.5% was the high score — but he’s ahead of the pace of Mike Mussina, who polled 43.0% and was elected three years later. Time is on Helton’s side, at least if he can avoid further trouble involving alcohol and motor vehicles.
Billy Wagner (6th, 46.4%, up 14.7%)
Like Sheffield, Wagner has nearly tripled his support in a two-year span, posting back-to-back gains of 15.0% and 14.7%, the latter of which was the third-largest of this cycle. He’s much closer to where Raines was after six (52.2%) than Martinez (27.0%), and nearing the high-water mark of committee-elected closer Lee Smith (50.6% in year nine). With the caveat that there’s a knee-jerk resistance built into a segment of the BBWAA electorate when it comes to relievers, I think Billy Wags is on the path to election in year nine or 10, and if not that, via committee.
Omar Vizquel (4th, 49.1%, down 3.5%)
Vizquel was the cycle’s big loser in terms of vote share, and probably would have fallen further if not for the fact that many writers had already sent off their ballots by the time the in depth report by The Athletic’s Katie Strang and Ken Rosenthal landed on December 16, following up allegations Blanca Vizquel made via Instagram in October. The Athletic’s report alleged that Vizquel committed multiple acts of domestic violence, and found substantial documentation including police reports of both a 2011 incident predating their marriage and a 2016 one for which he was arrested and under MLB policy was placed on a “treatment plan” while instructed to “cease and desist from any hostile or threatening contact” with Blanca. MLB’s investigation in connection with the latter incident is still open, and Vizquel, who is currently not employed by a team, could face discipline under the league’s policy if he were to be hired.
Vizquel’s previous climb to 52.6% through the first three years of his candidacy owed something to the perception of his character as a positive, but these allegations threaten if not demolish that perception. Beyond that, we’re in uncharted territory here as far as Hall of Fame candidacies go, but it’s clear at least some portion of the electorate has weighed the news heavily even while giving less weight to allegations against other candidates (Jones, Sosa, Manny Ramirez, and Barry Bonds) from the more distant past. Simply looking at the data from the Tracker team, of the 42 ballots published through December 15, 52.4% included Vizquel, which means that of the other 140 that came in prior to election — and here I’m excluding the anonymous ones in both samples — only 37.9% included him.
Scott Rolen (4th, 52.9%, up 17.6%)
The most positive story from this year’s election cycle is the gain of Rolen, who crossed the all-important 50% threshold, which very strongly portends future election, Gil Hodges and this ballot’s more controversial characters excepted. As noted, he debuted with just 10.2% of the vote, and is now on the modern voting era leaderboards for both two-year and three-year gains:
| Rk | Player | Yr0 | Pct0 | Yr2 | Pct2 | Gain |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Luis Aparicio | 1982 | 41.9% | 1984 | 84.6% | 42.7% |
| 2 | Larry Walker | 2018 | 34.1% | 2020 | 76.6% | 42.5% |
| 3 | Early Wynn | 1969 | 27.9% | 1971 | 66.7% | 38.8% |
| 4 | Scott Rolen | 2019 | 17.2% | 2021 | 52.9% | 35.7% |
| 5 | Barry Larkin | 2010 | 51.6% | 2012 | 86.4% | 34.8% |
| 6 | Gary Carter | 1999 | 33.8% | 2001 | 64.9% | 31.1% |
| 7 | Eddie Mathews | 1976 | 48.7% | 1978 | 79.4% | 30.7% |
| 8 | Luis Aparicio | 1981 | 36.9% | 1983 | 67.4% | 30.5% |
| 9 | Don Drysdale | 1975 | 21.0% | 1977 | 51.4% | 30.4% |
| 10 | Nellie Fox | 1982 | 30.6% | 1984 | 61.0% | 30.4% |
| Rk | Player | Yr0 | Pct0 | Yr3 | Pct3 | Gain |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Larry Walker | 2017 | 21.9% | 2020 | 76.6% | 54.7% |
| 2 | Early Wynn | 1969 | 27.9% | 1972 | 76.0% | 48.1% |
| 3 | Luis Aparicio | 1981 | 36.9% | 1984 | 84.6% | 47.7% |
| 4 | Nellie Fox | 1982 | 30.6% | 1985 | 74.7% | 44.1% |
| 5 | Scott Rolen | 2018 | 10.2% | 2021 | 52.9% | 42.7% |
| 6 | Billy Williams | 1982 | 23.4% | 1985 | 63.8% | 40.4% |
| 7 | Gary Carter | 1999 | 33.8% | 2002 | 72.7% | 38.9% |
| 8 | Eddie Mathews | 1975 | 40.9% | 1978 | 79.4% | 38.5% |
| 9 | Don Drysdale | 1975 | 21.0% | 1978 | 57.8% | 36.8% |
| 10 | Billy Williams | 1984 | 50.1% | 1987 | 85.7% | 35.6% |
Everybody from both of those tables, which mostly overlap, is enshrined except for Rolen, with Fox the only one who wasn’t elected by the writers. In terms of history within the period of the 10-year eligibility window, Rolen is in the vicinity of Mussina (51.8%) and Jeff Bagwell (54.3%); the former needed just two more years to gain entry, the latter three. Rolen is going to be on that podium behind Cooperstown’s Clark Sports Center soon.
Roger Clemens (9th, 61.6%, up 0.6%), Barry Bonds (9th, 61.8%, up 1.1%)
That’s a gain of 7.5% over the past four cycles for the former, and 8.0% over that same stretch for the latter. In the immediate aftermath of the election, the San Francisco Chronicle’s Susan Slusser interviewed me for a piece regarding the pair’s election prospects, and my words there will do to sum up the gruesome twosome’s plight:
“My conclusion is that there is a large enough opposition to run out the clock against them. Maybe there are few voters out there holding out for next year as a punishment, but I’m skeptical it’s a sizable enough number to change the outcome. People aren’t flipping their votes on them. The opposition is entrenched.”
“[The arrivals of Rodriguez and Ortiz are] going to produce some pretty crazy gerrymandering of logic to justify voting only for Ortiz, which is the sense I get could happen. Next year is going to be the weirdest ballot ever. All bets are off…
“Never say never, but… I think it’s going to take 20 years and a shift in our historical thinking and the committee voters for [their election] to happen.”
Curt Schilling (9th, 71.1%, up 1.1%)
As I noted numerous times in the past year, 20 out of 21 previous modern era candidates who received at least 70% but less than 75% and still had eligibility remaining were elected the following year. That should actually have been 20 out of 22 because Jim Bunning should have been counted twice, and now it’s 20 out of 23, as Schilling joins Bunning in that ignominious distinction. While somebody out there is certain to draw a connection between the two pitchers’ politics (Bunning, a Republican, represented Kentucky for 12 years apiece in the House of Representatives and the Senate from 1987 to 2011), I have yet to find any record of his doing anything that would particularly rankle Hall voters to the point of focusing on character the way that Schilling’s words and actions have.
Within Tuesday’s MLB Network coverage, I did learn that after Bunning received 70.0% in 1987, nine voters (out of 427) sent in blank ballots in ’88 as part of a protest by some writers against the general quality of the candidates. “I felt nobody on that ballot represented true greatness,” the New York Daily News‘ Bill Madden said at the time. “A lot of players represented pretty good or very good, not great. Willie Stargell (the only player elected) was very good. The Hall of Fame is for great.”
Stargell, who hit 475 home runs, played a key part on two World Series winners, and was co-MVP in 1979, is a bit short in JAWS but Hall-solid in terms of traditional accomplishments. Madden was in the minority, as Stargell was elected with 82.4%. Bunning, who went 224-184 with a 3.27 ERA and 2,885 strikeouts in his career, retiring with the second-highest total behind Walter Johnson, fell four votes short that year, finishing at 74.2%. The next year, with near-automatic first ballot candidates Johnny Bench and Carl Yastrzemski both hitting the ballot, Bunning sank to 63.3%. After that, he was lost in the shuffle, as first-year candidates Jim Palmer and Joe Morgan were elected in 1990, with Rod Carew and third-year candidates Gaylord Perry and Fergie Jenkins, both with better numbers than Bunning, elected in ’91, Bunning’s final year on the ballot. He finally gained entry via the Veterans Committee in 1996.
In the wake of Tuesday’s results, Schilling — who missed election by 16 votes — publicly expressed a desire for a similar fate. His request, however, is a bald-faced attempt to avoid the consequences of his behavior (which lately has included spouting election conspiracy theories and supporting the January 6 insurrection, and oy, there are receipts for those and so much more):
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) January 26, 2021
While Hall of Fame Chairman of the Board Jane Forbes Clark told USA Today on Tuesday that the Board of Directors would consider Schilling’s request, the BBWAA does not believe that should be allowed. From a statement by longtime BBWAA secretary Jack O’Connell:
“It is the position of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America that Mr. Schilling’s request to remove himself from the ballot is a violation of the rules set forth by the National Baseball Hall of Fame’s board of directors, who have commissioned the BBWAA to conduct the annual elections, specifically the following:
“The duty of the Screening Committee (for the writers’ ballot) shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
“Mr. Schilling has fulfilled both of those requirements and should remain on the ballot for consideration by the voting body for what would be his final year on the BBWAA ballot in 2022.
“The Hall of Fame assigned the BBWAA to be the electorate in 1936. This association has abided by the rules for 85 years and shall continue to do so. The BBWAA urges the board to reject Mr. Schilling’s request.”
Obviously, we haven’t heard the last of this matter. And you haven’t heard the last from me on the 2021 election. I’ll be back with my five-year electoral outlook on Monday.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Is it gerrymandering of logic just to believe that there is enough evidence that Bonds, Clemens, and Rodriguez used PEDs and not enough evidence that Ortiz did?
It’s Boston, my friend
The evidence against Bonds, Clemens and Rodriguez is much stronger than it is for Ortiz. We know all kinds of details about each of those three and all we know for Ortiz is that someone leaked his name to the NYT.
No, we know Ortiz tested positive. In his own statement immediately following the leak he state the Players Union confirm the leak was true:
“Today I was informed by a reporter that I was on the 2003 list of MLB players to test positive for performance-enhancing substances. This happened right before our game, and the news blind sided me. I said I had no comment because I wanted to get to the bottom of this. I want to talk about this situation and I will as soon as I have more answers. In the meantime I want to let you know how I am approaching this situation. One, I have already contacted the Players Association to confirm if this report is true. I have just been told that the report is true.”
Do with that what you want, but he has a positive test on his record.
I suppose, but that level of detail is on a whole different level than having Bonds or Rodriguez’s doping calendars.
So you’re ignoring the fact that MLB says that about 10% of the names on the list were erroneous?
David Ortiz didn’t admit to doing PEDs. He admitted that his name was on a list.
Bonds didn’t admit it either.
Ortiz is also a below fringe candidate even *without* PEDs on the scale. So what is he plus those suspicions?
A fringe candidate – by the numbers.
But his chances for election have always been about more than the numbers. He has narrative, and avuncular charm, and a cool nickname…
Never mind that I think those things shouldn’t matter, but they clearly do to much of the electorate.
So it’s a silly question to consider, but I think what’s going to tip the scale is how much the PEDs hurt his “lovable guy with the big smile” bonus.
He’s fringe-minus by the numbers… until Harold Baines got in.
How much does Baines move the measuring tape?
The problem—and the reason Baines shouldn’t have been elected—is that dozens of guys are on the other side of the Baines-line on the tape. Superstars like Ken Singleton, Dwight Evans, Reggie Smith, Mike Cameron who no one wants in the HOF all had better careers than Harold Baines.
What did Ortiz test positive for?
Was never revealed.
Seems like if they’re gonna hold it against you, they should say what it is.
The tests were destroyed so there’s now no way of knowing. Nor is there any way of knowing if he was one of the false positives.
I think it’s fair to presume it was the least “bad” thing that would be considered a positive test and work from there. I’m not sure it would really move the needle for anyone if it were one type of PED versus another.
Wasn’t Helton also on that leaked list, along with Pedro Martinez, Robbie Alomar, and Adrian Beltre?
https://www.thegazette.com/2009/06/30/heres-the-rumored-2003-mlb-steroid-list
Either the list that was made public is thought to lack in credibility, or there’s an exercise in cognitive dissonance going on. Personally, I think this list could actually be legit.
Thanks for sharing this information
So glad someone else remembers Vin quoting Milton (he used to say it whenever Dave Hansen got loose–the Dodgers’ main PH in the 90s, iirc)
Dave Hansen, he of the perfect 10 OBP in 2000 MLB Showdown!
Like all the mid ballot gains and the OV stall, though it should’n’t’ve taken the DV case.
I still stand by the idea that the character clause should only be relevant if the issues are baseball related. If the character issues are in their personal life, they should not be brought in to the voting process.
So if Scott Rolen shoots up a school room filled with children, he should still be elected? My guess is you just don’t like where the line is drawn.
Holy strawman batman!
Someone’s words and political beliefs you don’t like (and I don’t either btw), being compared with murdering school children? My goodness.
Also “their personal life” would seem too small to fully encapsulate an act like that.
Schilling’s public comments are no more his “personal life” than a school shooting. They’re literally “public” comments. My only point is that you have a line, I have a line, everyone has a line. So pretending your standard is your standard is disingenuous. You obviously believe some non-baseball conduct would be disqualifying. Also, as I’ve said, I’d vote for Schilling, I just don’t blame, begrudge, whatever, those that won’t.
So you won’t begrudge anyone who leaves off a player off for politics in the other direction either? If you’re consistent on it, then at least you’re consistent.
No, I don’t begrudge them for leaving off an unrepentant asshole. If someone doesn’t vote for Scott Rolen because he’s a registered Republican and donated to so-and-so’s campaign, then I would most certainly begrudge them. This isn’t hard and at this point I assume you are a disingenuous clown.
I’d vote for Schilling too. However Schilling’s problems with the voters are what pops out of his mouth and on his Twitter feed. When he likes a comment that involves hanging journalists, and those same journalists are the ones voting, it doesn’t take too many offended sensibilities to keep him out. If Schilling was a slam dunk first ballot guy with all the traditional counting stats it might make no difference, but for someone who’s had to build his case a bit, continued episodes of foot in mouth syndrome doesn’t help.
That’s a poor argument because it is clearly absurd. Personally I take the character clause to mean (1) conduct directly detrimental to the game itself, meaning cheating, and (2) commission of a crime so morally deplorable as to be disqualifying. I challenge anyone advocating that Schilling be excluded to provide a definition of similar clarity, that could be consistently used as a goalpost by voters in their decisions.
Read: none of this “I know the line when it’s been crossed” bunk
This is an honest question, I am quite curious what people will come up with.
None of the players included by these voters have character failings that they would espouse positive feelings of those failings, in public, at a hall of fame ceremony, etc. That is equally simple. The others are past mistakes people made. Schilling’s is who he is and wants to be as a person. If Barry Bonds comes out in support of DV or Clemens comes out in support of statutory rape, I’d bet they’d lose support.
Also, your rule literally has a “I know it when I see it” in it.
Leaving aside the misapplication of the word ‘literally’, fine, I concede I did leave wiggle room in the definition with the term ‘morally deplorable such that it merits disqualification’, but I figured the limitation to crimes specifically provides specificity, inclusion of the term “morally deplorable” requires that it be an act that carries a great degree moral condemnation with it (and rules out petty infractions). Sure, it does raise questions about domestic violence vs a bar fight vs securities fraud. At some point you do need to use words if you’re not going to simply make an exhautive list (an approach which has its failings too). Either way, I’m content that it’s a clearer standard than any that I’ve seen expressed on these message boards.
The point I’m making is I hear a lot of people happy to declare that Schilling fails the character clause. Fine then, what’s the yardstick by which he failed that can be used the next time this comes up? Isn’t it troubling if *no one* can express it with anything other than a list of pejoratives they feel applies to him?
I will also accept a concession that there is no articulable standard, people just want him out. That’d be honest.
Again, I don’t really give a crap about Schilling personally, I just give a crap about good process.
Dude, I literally gave you one, in simple terms, just as simple as yours, but actually without as much subjectivity. You must admit there’s a difference between Schilling and others. Not in the degree or heinousness of their transgressions, but rather how proud they are of them. That is a stone cold bright line test that only Schilling fails. You can disagree with the test, but you can’t deny its simplicity.
I actually don’t dislike that. Basically “if you’re going to degrade the induction ceremony by dragging your issues in with you you’re out”. That speaks to a legitimate interest the HoF is protecting, though I do think it circles back to in the end to deciding what type of speech you like and what you don’t.
I guess now that I’ve put it that way, I’ll just boil it down even further and say that probably what we’re really all *really* disagreeing about is if this is about “punishing speech you don’t like” vs “punishing speech that has real world consequences”. Or, to put it in context, is Schilling simply an idiot with a twitter account, or is he contributing to some cultural milieu that is bubbling up into real world acts of violence and intolerance. I can see how reasonable minds may differ on that.
Nobody is under any obligation to humor you. Your inability to accept that others’ standards differ from yours makes you the irritant here.
So I am to assume that you have no articulable standard or even an expression of the precedent that Schilling’s exclusion sets? It’s just “He’s out, because we say he is, other people will be in for the same reason”
Again, I don’t mind that other peoples’ standards may differ. All I’m asking is what standard exactly are you applying? Isn’t that a fair question? I gave you mine.
Your reason (2) is just as ambiguous as anyone else.
I respect the rhetorical technique to try and get people to provide definitions so you can pick them apart, but you know full well that the world exists in shades of grey and the notion that an exhaustive definition of moral failing that covers all situations doesn’t exist.
FWIW (very little), I’d vote for him despite holding the opinion that he’s a pretty awful person. But then again, I’d put Pete Rose in too so I’m probably not worth listening to.
I addressed the ambiguity above, and, like I said, this was an honest question. I have no interest in picking apart what people respond with, I am just curious to know if anyone can clearly express what character clause means in the context of Schilling failing it.
@alby
in 2021 society, there is a faction which makes decisions based on feelings, is okay with cheating.
then there is a faction which deals in reality but gets “canceled” because this faction is at work everyday, spending time with their nuclear family, not wasting life on twitter and fb.
Curious if you know Schilling won both the branch rickey and lou gehrig awards? if you have a clue what those awards are given for?
So you go to the most outrageous example you can come up with to make your argument. If you have to do that, its not a good argument.
Not true. I’m just making the point everyone has a line. I just want to get past the semantics to the point. Everyone had a line. Those claiming they don’t are liars.
You want a line, then fine, but there shouldn’t be a subjective line when it comes to things that don’t relate to baseball. Mass murder would be an illegal action there could be a clear line on. Even domestic violence cases could have clear lines. But subjective opinion about what people say, there aren’t clear lines there. Major difference. Breaking laws and serving jail time are easy lines to create. Subjective opinions on personal lives are not and should not be apart of it.
Okay, so if Schilling were an avowed Nazi who, whenever he could get to any microphone, advocated for white supremacy and gave Nazi solutes, you’d still be totally cool with inducting him?
Again, you people claiming that your tests are totally objective are just kidding yourselves.
I’d probably be cool with him having a plaque on a wall in a museum saying what a good baseball player he was.
I’d be much less cool with giving him stage time and a microphone.
While I would not be okay with someone being a self proclaimed Nazi, if they didn’t carry out any crimes, yes I would say still induct them into the hall.
It’s actually instructive to think about how shitty of a person you can be in America without being a criminal. You can be suuuuuuper shitty and still be within the laws of our country.
It’s not an argument. You have your opinion, you’re just unwilling to accept that others disagree with you. This is very common among conservatives.
“You’re just unwilling to accept that others disagree with you. This is very common among conservatives.”
Oh boy.
That one’s rich in consideration of the context here.
Nothing wrong with having different opinions. It is what you do with those opinions that can be a problem. If you want to shun someone because their opinion differs that is unwilling to accept that others can have different opinions. Having different opinions doesn’t matter if you can’t respect that others have different opinions.
@alby…15 down votes for a reason. those who base their outrage on their feelings instead of fact are the problem in society. 100 Million votes supported a conservative President
It would depend if Rolen said he did it because he was ‘woke’.
Just gonna get ahead of this now: Schilling was not kept out of the Hall of Fame for his political beliefs. Plenty of baseball players support Trump for some reason. The best example I can give is Mariano Rivera, who is a huge Trump supporter and was unanimously elected to the HoF.
Schilling was kept out because his views on any number of topics are reprehensible and he’s espoused violence toward others, including journalists, a number of times.
Imagine if we held athletes who committed actual violent crimes to this standard!
This is typical conservative snowflake crap. People disagree with you. Learn to live with it.
And this is typical internet crap, assuming you know anything about the poster based on their post.
Plenty of centrists and moderates are disappointed in how this Schilling situation has played out or how Hall voters are weighing words heavier than actual actions (myself included). It doesn’t make one a conservative or a snowflake to hold an independent point of view rather than hewing a platform line.
Conservatism is when joke on internet
Yakov Smirnoff?
There’s a big difference between just supporting Trump and supporting ridiculous conspiracy theories and violent protesters.
Not THAT big of a difference
I dislike having to respond to posts like yours because I feel like I’m getting sucked in… I dislike having to “defend” a borderline (IMHO) HOF candidate like Curt Schilling who also acts like a jack nozzle. The character clause states “playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team (s) on which they played”. That’s a slippery slope during a career- Mickey Mantle going on a bender, a player cheating on his wife, etc. I’ve never heard an argument against Schilling based on the actual clause.
I’m thrilled to see the support for Buehrle. I noticed that his JAWS doesn’t account for his fielding and control of the baserunning game, which amount to 87 runs for his career according to DRS.
Including his non-pitching contributions, Buehrle’s bWAR would be around 68, and his JAWS rank would be drop from 90 to the low 60’s, close to John Smoltz and David Cone. (Side note – Zack Greinke’s non-pitching contributions would put him into the top 25 all-time in pitching JAWS if he retired today).
His near single-handed attempt to make baseball games occur faster than Heinz ketchup dripping from a bottle makes me one of his fans, so I was glad to see him stay on the ballot. I remember thinking I was tuning into a Mariners-White Sox game only to get the post-game show because Mr. Buehrle had done one of his short-game specials.
I’m honesty shocked that Schilling’s vote percentage went up this year what with everything that happened. I would have predicted it to drop a bit.
I think there were some who voted earlier in the voting cycle that asked to retract their votes after the events of 1/6 and were denied by the BBWAA. It will be interesting to see what his vote totals do next year – it will be the confluence of many competing factors:
– The white-hot heat of the Nov 2020 election and Jan 2021 failed insurrection will (presumably, hopefully) have cooled on all fronts
– Some of Schilling’s more asinine and odious comments may have receded from memory (presuming he doesn’t spout some fresh new ones, which I wouldn’t bet on with any high level of confidence)
– 10th and final year on the ballot
Would be funny if they voted him in just to piss him off!
“ His request, however, is a bald-faced attempt to avoid the consequences of his behavior ”
I don’t really buy this characterization. If I were him I too wouldn’t be interested in submitting myself to the pillory to try to please a bunch of sports writers who have spent years talking about how terrible an individual I am. I don’t agree with his politics one bit, but I totally sympathize with him being done with this process, and I would feel that my only options are public self flagellation or to move on.
A process where 5 of 7 people voted for him? What about those people?
Yeah, we get it. You identify strongly with Curt Schilling. We’re long past caring.
Lots of unprovoked toxicity in these comments 🙁
The point for me is bigger than Curt Schilling. If a human being says “please remove me from consideration for your museum,” I would hope said museum honors that request, whatever the reason.
There’s so much scar tissue around the discussion of Schilling himself that I think the broader point is being obscured. The BBWAA has spent years asking the Hall to change the rules (# of years, max # of votes). Now they’re telling the Hall that the rules of eligibility are sacrosanct and shouldn’t be changed based on the request of a player. If Curt Schilling’s presence in the Hall tarnishes the game so much as to deny him induction (which is a concept I understand even if I disagree), then his presence in the voting discussion also tarnishes said game. But if he were dropped from the ballot, writers would lose untold clicks and comments 12 months from now. It’s impossible to me to separate the writers’ self-interest in their content-generation from their desire to keep him on the ballot.
Curt Schilling is NOT saying “please remove me from consideration for your museum.” He literally said, “I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.”
He is not asking to be excluded from the museum. He is asking to alter the process for joining the museum. That is a notable difference between what you’re claiming.
For better or worse, this is the process. You submit to a ten year public debate on the merits of a player’s inclusion. Schilling has sparked an animated debate, but has decided he doesn’t like the debate, so he wants to skip the public stage for the private, opaque process that follows.
If Schilling was actually saying “I don’t want to be in the Hall of Fame at all.” I don’t think there would be any problem with removing him from consideration altogether. But the second sentence of that quote above clearly demonstrates he still wants to be considered, but given special treatment.
Sorry, but I don’t think that’s correct. The Hall decides who goes on the Vet Committee ballots. It’s not a 5 year retirement / 10 year playing career test. The Hall could very easily say, “Great, we’ll take you off the BBWAA ballot at your request” and it is entirely possible that Curt Schilling would never see a Veterans Committee ballot.
So, while I agree that you’re right, he’s not saying “I don’t want to be in the Hall at all,” his asking to be removed from the BBWAA ballot makes it entirely possible that he is never again considered for induction.
I guess if you threaten to lynch journalists, the journalists who make up the BBWAA might take it personally! Who knew?
Ortiz’s likely admission could open the floodgates for other”alleged” users. Seriously, how do you keep out Bonds but let in Ortiz? Maybe that’s perversely a good thing: I don’t think I’d ever vote for a PEDs-tainted player, but sooner or later a lot of them are going to get in, maybe through some mass committee amnesty type thing.
I was under the impression that most of the drop Vizquel had was due to all of the articles I saw that proclaimed him sabermetrically unfit for the Hall of Fame. I hadn’t heard about the domestic violence issue until yesterday. So while it certainly complicates things, I think voters were gravitating away from his cause anyway.
Vizquel is the (latest) “F- you, stat heads” candidate. I have very little doubt that if his domestic violence issues hadn’t become public he would have seen a strong jump this year, and would be in position to get elected in a year or two.
I could see A-Rod getting in, not next year but at some point. He’s been open and apologized for his steroid use before, and think he’s media-savvy enough that he’ll put out a public statement before next year’s voting that will endear him more to the BBWA than the users whose plan was ‘Deny, Deny, Deny’.
Not likely. Being a slick cheater still leaves you a cheater.
Holy cow. This is a bigot talking points bingo of a comment!
Beyond your more incendiary comments that don’t deserve a response, there’s a TON of difference between “advocating for having border walls, low taxes, etc.” and the things Curt Schilling has posted. You weaken the argument when you draw false equivalences.
I feel bad for Schilling. People need to get over their moral superiority complex’s. Veteran’s Committee will get him in, so no worries 😀
Just like you don’t like someone mischaracterizing your views as “advocating white male supremacy” and “hating any and all dark-skinned people” and (hopefully) think that’s unfair, so too is painting everyone who holds opposing views a Communist or a socialist.
Everyone who disagrees with you on anything is not the great Satan. Grow up.
Seems like it’s going to be either Schilling or shut-out next year too (by the BBWAA at least). I can’t see A-Rod or Ortiz getting in on the first ballot, Bonds and Clemens probably end up at 65%, and Rolen and the others are too far away
Funny reference to Jay Jaffe’s religion there. Maybe you can tell us what you mean by that, hmmm?
What he was referring to is that he was presuming Jay, despite being Jewish, would condone the wave of Louis Farrakhan-inspired anti-Semitism this summer from athletes and entertainers (DeSean Jackson, Stephen Jackson, Allen Iverson, Nick Cannon, Ice T, Dwayne Wade, etc.) on account of his ‘White Guilt’.
His post was nonsense, and presuming Jay would have a certain opinion on something that he’s never discussed before was stupid. But anti-semitism among athletes and celebrities is very real, and the way it gets covered (or in many cases ignored) by many in sports media is very disappointing.
Besides, I’m pretty sure that the Maoists and Stalinists in baseball traditionally were treated with less respect than Curt Schilling is today.
And I’m about 1000% confident that if Adrian Beltre starts hosting a podcast with Bob Avakian he’s going to get treated a whole lot like Schilling is now.
There are reasonable ways to get these points across. This is not one of them. The term “bigotry” is insanely overused today, but there’s definitely some here with the antisemitism.
Also, I am against holding Schilling out for political reasons, but it’s disingenuous to say it’s because of his policies on the border or taxes. That’s not where the controversy lies.
Jay, what do you think of a rule stating that if a player receives, say, 60% or better for 3 consecutive years, they’re elected?
No. If there are enough against somebody, he shouldn’t be elected.
Disagreeing with Schilling’s views does not mean someone automatically is a fan of communism or socialism. For example, I think Schilling is a piece of garbage. Yet I also favor small government and low taxes. I can like small government and still not side with a bigoted, damaging, piece of garbage.
About that wall you mention, spending time and massive resources on constructing a wall on the almost-2,000 mile long US-Mexican border is an obviously stupid concept for many reasons, not the least of which are a great variety of logistical & construction issues. And if you really wanted the wall to follow the actual border, would then have to also extend it for a handful of miles out off the Pacific coast into the ocean, and at the other end, into the Gulf of Mexico. It is a blatantly stupid idea, and how that ever gathered any kind of support at all is a sad commentary on general intelligence of the public.
What does any of this have to do with the HOF? Nothing, but simply an attempt at replying to your provocative comment.
The HOF is not the Hall of Good Character, or the Hall of WAR, or the Hall of Memorable Moments. Its the Hall of Fame—whatever that’s supposed to mean.
There are plenty of baseball cheaters, racist men, and probably even criminal dudes of some sort in the HOF. Staying consistent with that, the barometer for good and moral character of HOF members is low.
However, in light of recent events at the US Capitol, and Schilling’s general reaction to that (in addition to publicly promoting false narratives in an intentionally damaging way over the preceding couple of years), in my own good consciousness, I couldn’t cast a vote for him.
There may not be great logic in that given who’s already in HOF, but there’s no way he’d be on my ballot. Not after what he said about the Capitol riot, that was kinda the straw that broke the bloody sock for me.
What the f*ck do Schilling’s tweets have to do with his Hall resume? I can’t believe you included that nonsense here. How about how his WAR holds up? You know WAR… the metric you all f*cking created to answer questions Iike this?