C’mon, Orioles, Do Something

I’m a biased observer. I watch the offseason hoping something will happen, and not just because I’m rooting for one particular team to get better. My job is to write about baseball, and it’s a lot easier to write about things changing than things staying the same. “This just in: Yankees roster same as yesterday” is not a story that I’d be very excited to write, and it’s also probably not a story that many people would be excited to read. Change is imperative for content, especially in the offseason.
With that intro in mind, I have a bone to pick with the Baltimore Orioles – a bone that, coincidentally enough, Meg and Other Ben discussed on today’s Effectively Wild. The Orioles won the AL East last year and finished with 101 wins, second-most in baseball. They seemingly ran out of gas in the playoffs; they didn’t hit or pitch particularly well in their ALDS loss to the Rangers. They followed that up by doing – well, a whole lot of nothing. It’s not just that they’re making my job harder. They’re making their own job harder, and doing so while the clock is ticking on their young, cost-controlled team core.
The AL East is always a competitive division, and it’s gone exactly according to type so far this winter. The Yankees went out and got a star – Juan Soto, not Alex Verdugo, if you’re keeping score at home. The Rays traded six nickels, two dimes, and two pennies for a quarter, three dimes, and a nickel. The Blue Jays shored up their infield depth, though they still need to find a replacement for Matt Chapman. (The current leader in the clubhouse for that position? Matt Chapman.) The Red Sox – well, the Red Sox are certainly making moves, even if I can’t quite figure out the end goal.
Those transactions have accomplished just what you’d expect: They’ve made the division a powerhouse again. Three out of the top 10 teams in baseball in terms of projected WAR play in the AL East – and the Orioles aren’t one of them. Maybe we’re selling them short – our odds have been known to do that – but they’ve stood still while everyone else around them adds, so it’s safe to say that their standing in the division has gotten worse since 2023.
That’s a really strange place to be for a team built like the Orioles. Baltimore is the envy of many front offices across the league. They executed the old Astros tear-down-and-refocus plan to perfection, coming out the other side with a handful of franchise cornerstones. Adley Rutschman and Gunnar Henderson have already arrived; Jackson Holliday looks like the next man up. The rest of the offense is built around that core of generational talents. Anthony Santander and Cedric Mullins are solid starters. Ryan O’Hearn, Ryan Mountcastle, Jorge Mateo, and Austin Hays are all good veteran role players. Jordan Westburg, Coby Mayo, Joey Ortiz, Heston Kjerstad, and Colton Cowser are waiting in the wings. Our Depth Charts projections have the O’s as the fifth-best offense in baseball, and there’s upside for more than that; this team is no joke, and it should have a strong baseline to build from for years to come.
Quite reasonably, then, the Orioles haven’t done anything to improve their offense. At this point, the best thing they could do on that side of the ball is signing one of their young stars to an extension, but that generally happens after players have reported to spring training. My point here is that I didn’t expect the O’s to add many bats, because they already seem to have more players than spots.
That actually lined up very well with the 2023-24 offseason. This winter’s free agent class was shockingly light on hitters, but it was awash with good pitching options. The trade market only had one obvious hitting star in Soto, but plenty of good pitchers were available. Even after Tyler Glasnow went to Los Angeles, Dylan Cease is still available, and there’s at least some chance that Corbin Burnes gets moved, though that looks increasingly unlikely to me.
Regardless of how they wanted to add pitchers, the Orioles had a bevy of good choices and plenty of available spots in the rotation. Let’s take the rosiest possible view of the various pitchers on the roster. That means Kyle Bradish is a good top-of-rotation starter, Grayson Rodriguez isn’t far behind, and John Means will return as an innings-eater after totaling only 31.2 innings over the last two years thanks to Tommy John surgery and then a back injury. Dean Kremer? Let’s call him a reasonable fifth starter, maybe a no. 4 in the upside case.
That’s if everything goes well. You can easily imagine things panning out worse here or there, though. If Bradish is more no. 2 starter than no. 1, if Rodriguez looks more like his first half than his second half, if Means or Kremer looks cooked, this could be one of the worst rotations among all playoff contenders. And if you’ll notice, that’s only four pitchers. We’ve slotted in Cole Irvin as the fifth starter, but he’s about as replacement level as it gets at this point.
The rotation is absolutely begging for an upgrade. Instead, the Orioles have signed only one pitcher of note this offseason, reliever Craig Kimbrel. Kimbrel makes sense as a bridge replacement for Félix Bautista, as Michael Baumann noted at the time. He’s not the best closer in baseball by any means, but he still looks like an above-average reliever, and Baltimore got him at a fair rate, $13 million for one year. A dominant bullpen feels like part of the Orioles’ DNA at this point, and if they can keep conjuring good relievers like Yennier Cano out of trade throw-ins, that part of the roster will still look good even without its best player.
Kimbrel’s $13 million guarantee – $12 million plus a $1 million buyout on a 2025 club option – makes him the highest-paid player on the Orioles. That’s absolutely wild. Their one-year fill-in reliever, an addition that’s nice but not essential, is the biggest fish in the pond. The second-biggest salary belongs to Santander, the only other Oriole to make eight figures (excluding James McCann, whose $12 million salary is mostly being covered by the Mets). We’re projecting the Orioles for the third-lowest payroll in the game on the whole.
That’s largely on purpose. If you look at their future payroll commitments, you’ll notice a pattern: there aren’t any. The team only has two contractual obligations for 2025 – that $1 million buyout of Kimbrel and $1 million for Bautista, who signed a two-year extension knowing he’d miss most or all of 2024. You don’t end up with so few commitments on accident; this Orioles team is built for payroll flexibility. Their payroll looks light in 2024; it could look truly barren in 2025 and beyond.
That’s by design, and it gives the O’s plenty of room to sign two or even all three of their would-be franchise cornerstones to long extensions. But really, they have significantly more room than that. Every team is making roughly $60 million annually via national TV deals. The local RSN, which the O’s own a majority share of, just struck a deal to retroactively determine local TV revenues from 2017-2021 at $60 million per year. That’s likely going up in future years, but let’s just call it $60 million, and ignore the benefits that Orioles ownership gets from owning the RSN.
Total MLB gate receipts totaled roughly $3 billion in 2022, the most recent year I could find data for. Thanks to local revenue sharing provisions, 48% of that revenue is split evenly among all teams, so let’s say the Orioles are making $80 million there; less than the average thanks to their smaller market, but not a negligible sum. We’re already at $200 million in revenue before adding in any other sources. Even if you assume their gate is meaningfully smaller than that, their own receipts plus revenue sharing give them a strong revenue back stop. Additionally, their new lease extension takes some uncertainty off the table and provides for more than half a billion dollars of stadium improvements paid for by the State of Maryland. My point is that the Orioles don’t need to be this austere. No team really does, but they especially don’t.
Does that mean that they need to go out and sign three top pitchers? Absolutely not. You don’t strip your payroll down this low without plans for how to spend it in the future, and in three years, all of their young stars will be more expensive. The payroll will naturally increase over time, which is what happens when you have a bunch of good young players making artificially low salaries.
My issue with their team building isn’t that the O’s aren’t trying to build up to a huge payroll right this minute and blast off to the moon in future years; it’s that they’re undervaluing the present in search of nebulous cost-efficiency gains. The Orioles have rightly been focused on building for the future for quite a while, and it has paid off (though the path to get there also made a good chunk of their fanbase justifiably angry). When you’re winning 60 or 70 games a year, punting present value for future considerations makes sense, whether we’re talking about saving money on salary or focusing on development over current players. But now that the O’s are competing for a division title, taking away from the present makes a lot less sense.
Looking back at the past few decades of roster construction strategies, there are a few favored ways to build teams around young players. Broadly speaking, you’ve got the way the Rays, Astros, Cubs, and Royals did things, all different approaches to assembling competitive rosters. (Here, I’m obviously excluding the Dodgers, Yankees, Braves, Cardinals, et al; I’m trying to think of teams that either operate with minuscule budgets or use tanking as part of their strategy.)
If the Orioles want to follow the Rays, I mean, good luck. The Rays get by without making any huge signings in free agency, but they draft and develop like no other team in baseball, and they’re not shy about trading to fill holes in their roster. If the Rays had a squad that looked like Baltimore’s, they’d be swapping players left and right trying to acquire pitching. (They’d also probably just have developed a couple of starters somehow, or drafted a few who’d already worked out, but that’s neither here nor there.) The point is, the Rays are always trying to move in a direction that balances present and future, and that’s clearly not the Orioles, whose maneuvers remain squarely future-focused even with a competitive team on the field now.
What about the Astros, the organization where Baltimiore’s front office got its start? They started the same way the O’s did, by tearing the major league team down to ground level and building around hitting prospects. They diverged from the current Oriole plan in a few ways after that, though. First, they started trading for top-end pitchers like Gerrit Cole and Justin Verlander. Then, they dished out extensions and free agent contracts that have taken them to the upper third of the league in salary and kept them there. In other words, they used their rebuild to accumulate good players and perhaps save some money, but when the team got good, they unwound all of that and started acting like a big-market team. I think it’s fair to say that nothing in the Orioles’ recent history implies they’re headed this way.
The Cubs might be a better comparison. Like the Orioles, their Theo Epstein-led rebuild focused on young hitting talent. They drafted and traded plenty of interesting hitters while mostly shying away from pitchers, though they looked for reclamation projects like Jake Arrieta when they did grab pitching. That matches what the Orioles have done in recent years almost to a tee. But when the Cubs had a strong season like this past year’s Baltimore result, they had already started adding pitching, and they kept going. Jon Lester signed for six years and $155 million before the team’s breakthrough 2015, and Jon Lackey joined the next offseason to shore up the rotation.
That wasn’t all; they also signed Jason Heyward in that 2015-16 offseason to fill a hole in the lineup. In other words, the Cubs started off like the Orioles, with a spectacular group of cheap, team-controlled hitters. Then they leaned into free agency (and win-now trades like Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman) to pair the cost savings of the young players with some expensive but excellent veterans, producing a great team at a reasonable budget. They eventually tore that team down and rebuilt again; they’re coming out of that cycle this offseason, in fact. This feels like something the O’s could do – only, they haven’t done the “add currently great players at market rates” part of it at all.
I’m sure that Orioles fans won’t enjoy being compared to the Royals, but even they give a possible blueprint. They didn’t quite build the same way as the Cubs; their drafting and development group seemed to be all over the place in the early 2010s. But like Chicago, when they hit upon a competitive core, they built around it. Consider this: in 2012, the Royals ran a payroll of $70 million, 25th in baseball. By 2015, when they won the World Series, that was up to $127 million. Their payroll peaked right around $150 million in 2017, more than double the number they’d run only five years previously. Then they pulled wayyyyyyy back; they were below $100 million in 2023.
The Orioles aren’t doing any of these things! They’re standing stock still, as though they’re afraid that any roster movement will let a T Rex spot them. The reason that I don’t have any good recent comparisons for their path is that teams don’t do this. Teams that traditionally run small budgets reasonably stretch them out during boom times; adding $15 million to your payroll is a lot more appealing when it’s increasing your odds of a playoff berth and a World Series title than when it’s moving you from 75 to 78 wins. Big-budget teams spend elsewhere on the roster when they have young cost-controlled players because they want to build great teams. Either way, a core of Rutschman, Henderson, and Holliday is the kind of thing that almost everyone wants to build around.
Not the Orioles, apparently. Maybe they aren’t completely out on the offseason. Maybe they’ll come out of nowhere to sign Jordan Montgomery and then trade for Cease. Maybe a Burnes trade isn’t completely off the table. But as things stand, we’ve gotten pretty far into the offseason without much movement. This is the last year where the O’s three best players will all be making roughly the league minimum; in pretty much any model of team building I can come up with, this is a year to add talent to make the cost savings of those young standouts really sing.
Last offseason, I understood why the Orioles stood pat. They felt like they were a year away from assembling a roster that looked, on day one, like a playoff favorite. They ended up exceeding that expectation handily, and by midseason, I thought they should have been looking to make additions to their roster to solidify the move from upstart to favorite. They didn’t do much at the trade deadline, though, and I somewhat understood it. It can be difficult to change the way you think of yourself; the Orioles thought of themselves as building for tomorrow because today wasn’t quite there yet for so long that it’s hardly surprising that they kept that mindset even when the present caught up to their visions of the future.
The front office has to change lanes, has to start either spending money or cashing in prospects to focus on taking advantage of the wonderful array of talented players on the major league roster right now. I’m sure that there have been plenty of internal discussions about which path is best, but if I were running things in Baltimore, I’d be banging the table for more money to spend, and I might even be willing to commit to lowering my payroll down the road, Cubs-style, if that got ownership to buy in. Ideally a parade or two might persuade them that investing in the roster is worthwhile, but I wouldn’t be devastated if the O’s went boom/bust — it’s better than not spending even when you’re good. But all they’re doing right now is banking money. The Orioles might only get six years of Rutschman, and we’re on year three. It’s time to get him some help from the outside, one way or another.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
You’d think that signing some pitching would also help in convincing their young stars to sign early extensions, too. It isn’t clear that they’re even trying on that front, which is maybe the worst part of all.
John Angelos is the cheapest owner in MLB, even worse than Fisher. He already gave an interview to the New York Times saying that the organization cannot afford to offer any extensions, since doing so would supposedly require dramatically raising prices.
Plus, Gunnar is represented by Boras, so an extension for him isn’t realistic even without considering the ownership situation.
Sure, sure, Angelos is a cheap bastard. No one is going to dispute that. It’s still depressing, even as someone who isn’t an O’s fan. I don’t want to see all these guys in Dodgers and Yankees uniforms.
I’m willing to bet Gunnar would take a reasonable extension if the O’s looked like they were going to set their core up long-term like ATL did, though.
I will take you up on that bet, because no Boras client has ever agreed to an extension this far from free agency. There is absolutely zero chance of that happening. Adley, on the other hand, could be extended if not for the ownership situation.
Yeah, who can say? If they extend Adley and Holliday, and sign someone like Yamamoto, and then make him a good offer? Maybe he’d still turn it down. But all those other moves would still be good.
Jackson Holliday is also a Boras client, and the Orioles haven’t signed a free agent to a multiple year contract since 2018.
Due to the tax implications, the Orioles won’t be sold until Peter passes, and only if John is willing. Until then, even third tier free agents are out of reach, much less the Yamamotos.
The things you keep mentioning are what Orioles fans wish for, but they aren’t currently realistic.
I don’t think that they will do any of the things they should do, to be clear.
Maybe they need an outside capital infusion, although it would be hard to sell a minority owner on putting up a bunch of cash without gaining control of this mess. Some kind of future or contingent purchase option?
Even Adley is getting past the point where he’s going to be cheap. After this year, he’ll be in Austin Riley territory where it would take 200m+. It might already take 200m+.
Adley might’ve cost more than 200m before he even debuted in the bigs, if you were buying out all of his arb years plus some FA years. He’ll probably make $70+mn in arb alone, and he’s already banked the highest draft bonus in MLB history at the time it was signed (Angelos wasn’t too cheap for that thankfully!).
Angelos is cheap, but he really did get screwed over by the Expos moving to Washington. His tv market is nothing, his ancillary revenues streams are minimal, and his team plays in the least-desirable market on the East Coast. It’s going to be hard for them to win bidding wars on good players until the team is sold, but when the team is sold it it will probably be moved.
No, he didn’t get screwed, he screwed himself by alienating all the other owners – and he still owns the majority – and always will – of both the Baltimore and DC tv markets.
The Orioles are doing just fine and the presence of the Nationals has had far less impact than many pundits and fans predicted.
It’s been 20 years now, too, so I think it’s time for folks to move from anger to acceptance.
The Orioles used to draw 2.5+ million and usually 3+ million even in 85+ loss seasons. Now they never draw more than 2.5 million even when making the playoffs three times in five years.
It is absolutely true without any shadow of any doubt that forcing the Nationals into D.C. substantially diminished the Orioles’ revenue and forever consigned the team to being a small market.
Nah, Miami is technically part of the East Coast, and Baltimore is at least a better baseball market than Miami.
I don’t disagree with the principle of what you’re saying, but I believe Xander Bogaerts was actually only one year closer to FA than Gunnar is currently when he agreed to his initial extension with the Red Sox, so its not really true that Boras clients never extend before FA
Xander Bogaerts signed an extension in 2019 when he was one year away from free agency. Gunnar Henderson is five years away from free agency.
Early extensions generally suck for players. It’s no surprise that Boras would steer his guys away – he’s good at his job. I don’t know that that means a Boras client would always reject one that was more balanced.
Strasburg stayed in DC thru 2019 – a Boras client – that was extension #1 – worked out well, World Series MVP…2nd extension, not so much….but there’s 1 Boras client who agreed to an extension…I’ll bet there’s 2-3 more. He has lots of clients.
I see we have someone else here who can’t read properly. jdbolick clearly said that Boras clients don’t sign “this far from free agency,” not that they don’t sign extensions at all.
I don’t know if I would ever extend a catcher this far out. Even Adley.
link got caught up in moderation, ignore
I see what you did there…
The Orioles are confident enough in their young guys to turn over the entire organization to them and not confident enough in them to sign them to extensions. Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman are going to be going to be signing big deals with other teams in 2028 and 2029 because their free agency got a lot closer in a short period of time. Now, they could go ahead and give their guys extensions but the price is going to be somewhere in between Wander Franco and Julio Rodriguez instead of around Corbin Carroll. Which is just the sort of excuse they’ll use to not do it.
You have to wonder how long Elias is going to be content working with this kind of budget. I’m sure there are owners willing to spend more that would love to have him.
There are rumors that he’s planning to sell the team now. That would probably be the best case scenario.
Couldn’t happen soon enough. Shades of the McCourt-era Dodgers, except the org is in a lot better on-field shape, of course (and the Dodgers have done OK since then).
Not an Orioles fan, nor a Reds fan, but both those teams seem to have the same sort of thing going. Too many players to play on offense, a staff that could use an upgrade. The Reds signed two guys, and while Montas has a wide variety of outcomes, neither seems to move the needle too much. It sure seems like both teams have something that teams desire in young, controllable position players that are league average or better. I do not understand why both those teams are not shopping someone for an Ace, or even a #2. Maybe they both want Montgomery? Maybe they see 2025 as their time and are in on Woodruff? Either way it just seems weird to me that a team that has young bats who may or may not be that good, and likely too many of them, isn’t actively looking for starting pitching.
There are a lot of teams with a lot of position player talent (or even just huge numbers of young guys to play) but not enough pitching because all the pitchers are getting hurt. The Padres, Rangers, Orioles, Cardinals, Mets, Reds (sort of), even the Red Sox fit that description. And the reverse of that is…the Mariners? The Brewers and Marlins used to be like this, but the rotation isn’t nearly as fearsome anymore for either one. Everyone is just trying to fill up on as much top-tier pitching as possible. It’s hard to keep up with the arms race.
There were only 100 pitchers in MLB who threw 100 innings and were worth at least 1 fWAR last year. So that’s the bar for #3 pitcher I guess. Only 63 guys with at least 2 WAR, 32 with at least 3 WAR. Kyle Gibson had the 45th-most pitching WAR in MLB last season, and people seem to think he’s below average. He’s borderline elite!
Ben Lindbergh had a good article on the death of innings eaters at The Ringer today. The corollary of that is that teams need to find other ways to accrue that missing WAR.
Teams like Baltimore are a lot more comfortable winging it with flexible roster spots, and they have to be because the supply of talent is not distributed uniformly. There are a ton of guys who project to 0.5-1.5 WAR and not very many guys who project above that. So put them in platoons, keep their outings short, and try to replicate a 3 WAR, 200 IP starter using 2-3 different guys generating 1-1.5 WAR across 70-100IP each. Just accept that some of them will be on the IL at all times, so you need to have a basket of them to draw from. It’s like the old Moneyball line: we recreate him in the aggregate.
What choice do teams like Baltimore have when Lance Lynn gets $12mn, coming off a 0.5 fWAR season that led the league in HR conceded, solely because his arm is unlikely to fall off? Ben kind of poo-poos John Means, but Sean Manaea got $16mn; Means would probably get about that in FA too.
You shouldn’t be relying solely on WAR to evaluate pitchers. Both fWAR and bWAR for pitchers are highly unreliable.
Hopefully they are a complete failure this year, finishing even behind the awful Red Sox, or their cheap money grubbing owner will continue down this path of pocketing tens of millions in profits while screwing over fans and taxpayers
There is no way they finish behind the Red Sox unless David Ortiz comes out of retirement, Pedro Martinez comes back and finds his old fastball, and the ghost of Ted Williams is allowed to play.
Diasgree. Their pitching staff is definitely worse. If they have an injury or two on offense, or a key regression from a young player, they could easily finish with a worse record. The Red Sox aren’t likely to be good, but they aren’t the Athletics.
If they play exactly the same as last year but have opposite sequencing results, that would be 77 wins.
> There is no way
Ahh, but there is – #baseball is gonna baseball. But agreed that it is very very unlikely.
Finishing behind the Red Sox would not encourage the owner to spend more money. It’s far past the point of “x-thing has to happen or owner will keep not spending.” He’s not going to change regardless of what happens on the field.
If last year proves anything, it proves this.
What I (an Orioles fan) wouldn’t give for Dave Dombrowski to be running things over Mike Elias… It’s incredibly frustrating to watch, for over a year now, a promising young team with almost literally the minimum possible payroll commitment for an actual MLB team commit no additional resources toward winning a World Series. With the caveat that there is still time left this offseason to get some pitching, it’ll be hard to look back at the last two offseasons (netting, so far, one year each of Adam Frazier, Kyle Gibson, and washed up Craig Kimbrel) as anything but a failure when the team’s lack of pitching inevitably dooms their WS chances.
If ever a team could afford to “lose” a trade by a bit, it’s these Orioles, with far more deserving offensive prospects than could possibly play at the same time. Just top the 2nd best offer for Cease no matter what! Commit literally any long-term money to building a competitive major league team! I know ownership is largely to blame here, but I also agree with the article that the front office needs to be held accountable too. Something needs to change here, and it unfortunately seems increasingly unlikely that anything will.
Dave Drombowski’s ability to get ownership to spend would be interesting here. The irresistible spending force meets to immovable ownership imposed budget constraints.
We readily absolve front offices when a team doesn’t spend, but budgets are both a function of ownership, and front offices who don’t ask for more money.
I don’t think the Orioles are confident that they know who they should trade. We know it won’t be Holliday, Westburg looks good and Kierstad could become a monster, Mayo likewise and Cowser and Norby, then Ortiz and don’t forget Bassallo. Make the wrong guess and they might end up keeping a Jo Adell clone and getting Carloe Rodon, who every body was screaming that the Orioles should have signed last off-season, in return. The Orioles are good and can wait to further evaluate their copious riches before making a big move.
If I were an O’s fan, I’d be pretty upset right about now. If the front office isn’t trying to go for it NOW, then WHEN will they EVER? They have the abundance of young talent the franchise hasn’t seen in decades, the Yankees are a bit vulnerable right now, and the Red Sox are an afterthought, so even though the Rays and Jays are still pretty good, there truly is no time like the present to go all in. At least give their fans some hope that there’s a chance this franchise can ever win anything.
This is just the Rays strategy for competing in the AL East without spending money. Draft and develop well. Next they will trade their stars before they hit free agency and reload with young talent.
Signing top tier free agents or trading prospects for star players with 1 or 2 years of control left just doesn’t work if you want to keep payroll low and have a constant influx of young talent. The Rays don’t do it either.
The Orioles are in a much better revenue situation than the Rays so they shouldn’t have to do it this way. But it’s hard to blame Elias for the strategy given the apparently very limited dollars he’s been given to spend.
But, as Ben says, if they were really following the Rays strategy they would now trade some of their ML-ready blocked prospects for pitching talent. The Rays wheel and deal, and not just with guys in arbitration.
The Rays don’t really trade blocked prospects for pitching talent, they trade established major league talent.
2011 Garza-> Archer
2018 Archer -> Glashow and Baz
2023 Glasgow -> Pepiot
Agree it’s not their MO, but it’s not unheard of. They traded their #4 prospect in 2019, Jesus Sanchez, for relievers, in part because their outfield seemed set then and he was an OF prospect. Then there was the Civale trade this most recent season.
See also: Matthew Liberatore for Randy Arozarena
Yeah, they trade the incumbent after extracting maximum prearb value, and promote the blocked prospect.
Correct. The Rays are constantly in motion. No player is safe from a “surprise” trade. The O’s so far are simply inactive.
I’m sorry who have the rays drafted?
Jordan Westburg for Corbin Burnes, call it in.
This would be a win-win deal for both teams, at least if you believe Westburg’s offensive performance and OAA from 2023. I’m skeptical, so I’d think they’d need to offer more for Burnes, but this at least seems like a reasonable deal at first glance and could be the basis for a deal.
Still, I don’t think it will happen. Both front offices seem like they’re too worried about making the “wrong” move to entertain something this obvious.
Brewers fan here…I wouldn’t make this trade.
Yeah, that’s the starting point. A good starting point, yes, but would need to add another piece. With Norby, Ortiz, and of course Mayo all close, the prospects are there. Maybe Westburg and Kjerstad for Cease?
As a phils fan, I am hoping that Norby could be had for a reasonable price. He’s not high in the pecking order, presumably.
I offer Willie Randolph for Doc Medich as the reason the Brewers should make that trade in an instant.
That’s just ONE example of a pitcher being traded for a position player. I am not saying they shouldn’t make this trade, but offering up ONE example and say it’s the reason a team should make a trade is rather silly.
FWIW I also agree that they really need starting pitching, and it’s awful that they haven’t made a serious effort to get a playoff-worthy starter, like Montgomery / Snell / Burnes / Cease / Glasnow etc. I think they’re probably in wait-and-see mode to see if a guy like Snell takes a pillow deal (which would be perfect for them but who knows if it’s possible). Otherwise they’re going to be signing Lorenzen or Clevinger.
Part of why the Orioles got to this point where they only even have a couple of candidates to start playoff games (Bradish, Rodriguez maybe) is that the hunt for pitching has gone into overdrive. The Orioles focused exclusively on position players for a long time because they are less likely to get hurt. But because pitchers are so likely to get hurt it means that every team is looking for them. The price has gone up. A lot.
That Gerrit Cole-Astros trade was headlined by one FV50 prospect. Cole was a former top pitcher who was coming off a down season (by their standards) with two years of team control remaining–very similar to what is going on with Dylan Cease. But you’re probably looking at Coby Mayo and Heston Kjerstad (an FV55 and FV50 prospect) for Cease, and that might just be to start the conversation. If anything, Cease is even less of a proven pitcher than Cole was.
But I’m not sure they have good alternatives to a trade like that, either.
My guess is, the Orioles are trying to prolong their window of contention as long as possible. You don’t need to be the best team in baseball to win the World Series, you just need to make the playoffs. Coming off a 101 win season, not losing any significant pieces, having the top prospect in baseball and one of the best farm systems, I think they view themselves as a playoff team now….and for many years to come. Not that the Cardinals have been in this particular position but I think they’re adopting their model. Never go all in, constantly balancing the present and the future and prolong the window of contention as much as possible.
While insisting that having the right catcher makes up for pitching deficiencies…
It is very easy to see the difference a great catcher makes. The 2023 Cardinals should answer that question once and forever.
I guess, but it seems like they have an opportunity to adopt the Braves model. Extend everyone good early, get the cost certainty.
It’s not super fair, but the Cardinals model isn’t going to result in consistently making the playoffs in the AL East.
Well, I think everyone would like to follow the Braves model, unfortunately not all prospects are willing to sign long extensions for a bag of circus peanuts. Even if they have to pay much closer to market rate, I do hope Baltimore goes down this line though. As Ben said, these extensions typically happen during spring training so who knows, perhaps there’s a signing or two in the next couple months.
The Albies extension was gratuitously bad. The rest were more or less in line.
I feel like the Orioles are one of the only teams with the opportunity to follow the model, in that they have a pile of really good pre-arb players and MLB ready prospects.
It sucks that their crappy ownership situation seems increasingly likely to do nothing with it. Maybe they’ll win one in the next few years anyway, but either the window will close when players start leaving as free agents or they’ll have to take a step back when they trade arb2 stars for prospects.
Acuna extension was widely seen as extremely team-friendly extension at the time.
It is just that a week later, Albies signed the mother of team-friendly extensions and Acuna’s contract looked reasonable in comparison.
Everyone keeps claiming that kids won’t sign team friendly contracts when they’re offered well before their arbitration is coming up, and I just don’t buy it. This is about owners not willing to offer contracts to these kids, not kids being unwilling to take money 2-3 years before they’re owed it.
Ask yourself this, what kid that isn’t a guaranteed star is going to pass on a contract offered to them? None. We’ve already seen multiple young stars accept these contracts, not just on the Braves, and get paid well below their value, but also well before they’re due to make any serious money. So what type of player is going to pass on this guaranteed money?
There may be a few kids confident in their ability that won’t sign a pre-arb contract, but I guarantee you that 99.9% of them, even the absolute all star level players, will sign a team friendly contract if it gives them life changing money.
I assume what they mean when they say this is that young players won’t sign extensions that are as team friendly as owners would like.
They’re pretty much all team friendly. But you have to offer them before the player has made any real money, or the leverage is gone.
If you wait ’til the player just made 6m in arb1 and is near-guaranteed 30+ million more in the rest of arb, you’re not getting much of a discount.
Was Evan White team friendly?
You make a list of the ones that weren’t, and I’ll make a list of the ones that were. I’ll give you Jon Singleton.
Right, the key is offering young players contracts pre-arb.
As far as contracts being as team friendly as owners would like, I think it’s obvious that most owners would prefer paying them min wage as long as they can rather than offering them reasonable money.
I just don’t buy, at all, the the primary issue with trying to get players to sign contracts pre-arb is the players and not ownership. Trying to blame players is just lazy and reeks of the same small market BS we hear from those owners all the time.
Say ‘kid’ again! I dare you!! -Jules Winnfield
The problem is that if the kids haven’t yet established themselves as stars, the teams themselves are less likely to want to extend them long-term. Even team friendly early career extensions can be highly regrettable if the player bombs and never recovers in the next year or two after the extension like Paul DeJong, or if he has other issues like Wander Franco.
Atlanta also doesn’t sign free agent starters long term or trade for them. It’s a dumb move because SP are so fragile and variable. So I actually don’t mind Baltimore not doing it. But they should absolutely lock up their core.
The Cardinals also play in the NL Central.
Maybe, but how likely are they to even make the playoffs this year with their current pitching staff?
yeah if i was them i’d be trying to sign gunnar especially to as long of an extension as possible. adley is a little trickier, but at least sign him for another 6 or 7 years
I suspect the Orioles’ model is the 2013-15 Pirates. Enjoy the brief competitive window opened by hitting on a bunch of draft picks within a short period of time. Don’t spend any money to open the window wider or keep it open longer, except maybe signing below-market extensions with any of your homegrown stars who will sign them. Then bottom out again, until whenever you happen to hit on a bunch of draft picks with a short period of time again. A lot of fans might not like that model. But enough of them are ok enough with it to keep showing up to Pirates games and watching Pirates games on tv, that the owner is satisfied.
Of course, that model might not even work as well as it did for the Pirates, given that the Orioles play in a tougher division. On the other hand, maybe the expanded playoffs mean that model works better than it did for the Pirates. Maybe the Orioles figure that (or hope that), thanks to the expanded playoffs, they can draft and develop well enough to have brief competitive windows every, I dunno, 10-15 years or so? Perhaps while also thinking that they’ll never get to spend enough money to make the playoffs every year like the Dodgers do, and that it’s not worth spending appreciably-less-than-Dodgers money to have slightly more frequent competitive windows?
I dunno. All this is just guessing and projection. We don’t actually know what budget or other mandate the owner has given the front office. We don’t actually know if there’s any chance that that budget or mandate could change if, say, the Orioles make the playoffs again this year. We don’t actually know how the front office pitched its strategy/vision to the owner (i.e. would a different vision or pitch have gotten the owner to cough up more money for free agents this winter). So we don’t really know enough to say whose fault all this is–why the front office is sitting on its hands this winter.
Right, all we know is that they didn’t sign anyone last year and haven’t this year either. Nor have they extended any of their important pre-arb guys.
And it’s worth noting that that plan didn’t really even work for the 2013-2015 Pirates, because the top of the NL Central was really tough for those few years. I mean, the Pirates won the second most games in baseball over those three seasons but only got three wild card games and one five game NLDS out of it. The NL Central was pretty good in that window: multiple playoff teams every year from 2011-2015, only the 12 Braves and 14 Giants snagging one from another division.
Thank you for saying this, I was specifically reading the comments to see if anyone else would mention the Pirates. Because when the author wrote that no other team would follow the strategy of the Orioles from last year’s trade deadline/this offseason, I immediately thought to myself, “That’s not true, this is identical to what the 2013-15 Pirates did. The Pirates did it.”
The Baltimore Orioles have not signed a free agent to a multiple year contract since Alex Cobb on March 20, 2018. This is due to the declining health of Peter Angelos, forcing his son John to serve as de facto owner in recent years. John Angelos has no career to speak of. John Angelos has no wealth outside of team ownership. Therefore, he runs the team in the most miserly fashion, seeking to pinch every penny, most recently by trying and failing to get more money out of the Maryland Stadium Authority than the $600 million initially agreed. Note that the Orioles began last season with an Opening Day payroll just $4 million above the Athletics and $12 million behind the Rays.
So that takes good free agents off the table. What about trades, you ask? Because Baltimore is a small market team with current ownership completely unwilling to spend, Mike Elias cannot afford to make a bad deal. If he gives up multiple elite prospects for Dylan Cease, who has major red flags and probably won’t ever come close to his 2022 performance ever again, then the franchise has no means of recovering from such a loss. Whatever deal he makes, it has to work or the team is in trouble.
Because of that, it is better to make no move than to let desperation lead you into a bad one. Chris Getz is completely delusional regarding the value of Cease, while potential trading partners in Miami and Seattle aren’t currently amenable to dealing one of their young, cost-controlled starters.
So what do you do? Elias has to make the best of a bad situation by trying to add flawed pitchers on one season contracts, then use his incredibly impressive prospect depth to make the lineup as daunting as possible. Remember, it is a 162 game season, so just because there isn’t a spot for Joey Ortiz or Connor Norby to contribute in April doesn’t mean that there won’t be an opportunity for them in May or June. Injuries happen. Regression happens. Having depth means capably filling those holes as they appear.
As a lifelong Orioles fan, would I prefer for Elias to acquire Bryce Miller or Emerson Hancock? Of course. But I much prefer this patient approach, even if it is overly so, as long as that means avoiding a disastrous deal for someone like Cease that sets the franchise back.
If you accept that ownership won’t spend any money on extensions or free agents, I guess you’re left with the Rays model. Trade everybody good two years before they’re free agents, and never make a mistake.
This is a perfect summarization of the current situation.
(This is by no means a defense of John Angelos, or the way he runs the team. I loathe the man, but this is my theory of what’s happening.)
The Angelos family purchased the team with money that Peter gained through a few very lucrative law suits. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Angelos law firm has had any similarly sized payouts since then. It has been reported a few times that Peter’s dying wish is for his wife to sell the team and “enjoy the wealth that they built together.”
My theory is that John Angelos is too incompetent (he couldn’t pass the bar) to efficiently use the profits from the team to invest in the roster and that the family doesn’t have much liquid cash on hand to supplement. Obviously, no one has access to the books or what is happening behind the scenes with the family legal bout last year or the ramifications of the long standing MASN dispute. The team won’t be sold while Peter is still alive as they can avoid paying $200MM+ in taxes. I hope that the plan is to sell the team soon after Peter passes, and John is just greedily hoarding all profits in the meantime because who knows how the profit of the sale will be distributed between his mother and his brother, given how publicly the tension between them has been. Again, this is all essentially just my shower thoughts and I’d be happy to have someone tell me why it’s wrong.
As far as how this impacts the FO, I think that Elias knows that any sizable salary investment in the roster isn’t coming with the current ownership. He knows that the farm system is the only way of bringing talent to the big league club and feels that he cannot afford to risk losing any stand-out players. Unless any of the young stars agree to team friendly deals, the money to extend them is not available.
I’m sure that Elias would love to just throw money at Snell or Montgomery, any GM with the financial support of their ownership would. Unfortunately, the Orioles are hamstrung financially by ownership and the FO is paralyzed weighing the risks of trading some minor league players for a pitcher or keeping all of them for when the current crop gets too expensive. The big problem in that regard is that they hit on so many players early on that a lot of the depth is not pushing 24-26 and are less desirable to other teams in a trade AND will be past their prime by the time their time comes if they stay put.
If not being able to pass the bar makes one incompetent, I’d guess you’d have to apply that label to a good 50% of this country
Given that the rest of the sentence can be paraphrased as “…to effectively run a very famous nine-figure company,” yes, more than 50% of the country is likely incompetent.
But he doesn’t really have to run the company. He just needs to make enough of the team’s revenue available for player payroll and let the front office do most of the work.
But 50% of the country doesn’t have the advantages John Angelos had,right? Or had some other skill that they knew about where spending time trying to become a lawyer/pass the bar would have been silly.
Guess what I’m saying is I think well more than 50% of the country COULD pass the bar if they had a billionaire lawyer father & all of the advantages in time & resources that gives somebody…not just to pass the bar, but, that accumulate throughout their entire life.
Well, almost every owner runs his/her team for a profit without involving his/her personal fortune. John Angelos should still be able to spend more and still make a profit.
Agree with 100% of this but I will not stand for this Tyler Wells erasure! Still think he can be a very good back-end starter for them even if he is currently projected to be mid rotation.
mid relief**
No doubt, the O’s need pitching. But I would think they’re counting on Tyler Wells in the back end of the rotation, and I’m assuming they still view DL Hall as a starter rather than a reliever. I don’t know that I would go into a season with Bradish, GrayRod, Means, Hall, Wells, Kremer and Irvin as my top-7 arms… but I also would understand wanting to see what I have in those arms (especially the first five) before tendering prospect capital in trade.
If multiple of those unproven or recently-injured pitchers don’t perform, this team could be REALLY far away from contention in 2024. Said differently, there’s a non-zero scenario where this team needs not one or two good-to-great SP, but a couple of additional solid arms behind them. The most “stable” starter on the roster is Bradish, with 53 ML starts. Given Means’ last couple years, I don’t know how much you can count on the bounceback or on significant innings. And the rest are prospects or 5th starters.
No doubt. It makes more sense to use their 89 wins BaseRuns record as a 2024 baseline than 101. It could all work out great and they could win 100 again, but they’ll need everything to work out.
I don’t even mind the lack of trades; having perpetually good position prospects bubbling up is a nice way to try to always be good. They don’t need to start flinging them away left and right. It’s the lack of spending at all that’s shocking. Kenta Maeda was cheap and short term and apparently quite getable, he would have helped. Sonny Gray signed for just three years and would have been a meaningful improvement. Both of them would have been coming off payroll right as their rookie contracts moved into more expensive arbitration years. It would have been like, perfect timing. Just has to be a completely frustrating passivity if you are a fan.
The issue is we don’t know if they’ll perpetually have good position prospects bubbling up so that they’re always good. They tanked, the prospects from those high draft picks are arriving, but now they’re winning, so they’ll be drafting at the backend every year. Can they build a sustainable model without tanking? Unknown.
But what orgs have had “perpetually good position prospects bubbling up… to always be good”? Maybe the Rays and Dodgers, and the Rays do it as much by trading guys nearing FA as by drafting, while the Dodgers are always ready to augment as needed via FA.
The O’s pipeline isn’t so loaded that they can rely solely on drafting anymore, especially now that they don’t have top 5 picks every year. And they aren’t built out for forever – of the 27 guys that look most likely to be active to start the year at this point (excluding Holliday and 1 of the OF 40 man prospects who are also good possibilities) only 7 are controlled beyond ’26 or have more than 1 remaining option. There are a number of good players there, but also only 5 others (3 OFs) on the 40 man that they also retain such control with over 1 option. 1/2 of their 18 current MLB.com top 30 prospects that have more than minimal AA time are Rule 5 eligible after ’24. Of course not all of these will be protected or selected. And only 5 of their Top 20 are at lower minors levels
The pitching side is most impacted here, both starters and relievers. Only Bradish, Rodriguez, Wells, Seth Johnson, Bautista, and Cano have 2 options now or will be short of arb 2 status entering 2025. And only 4 of their top 25 current MLB prospects (including Johnson) are pitchers with time in AA and the other 3 will be Rule 5 eligible after ’24. Pitching will be an ongoing issue.
They could be looking to trade some position guys to help fill in – but using the Rays model, those closest to FA (FA’s in ’25 or ’26) are mostly key current pieces. These are ’25 Arb 3’s Jorge Mateo, O’Hearn, and OF’s Hays and Mullins, along with ’25 FA Santander. Mateo is a guy they should be looking to move right now – there are teams needing a SS and they don’t, with 4 Top 10 IF prospects plus 4 guys under control through ’26. But I’m not saying he’s a major solution.
The O’s have a nice 3 year window open to ’26 – maybe more if more prospects pop. They didn’t strike in their prior chance last year. How long will they wait?
Oh I agree it’s very hard to have a perpetually good farm, but it seems they want that kind of sustained engine. Which means they should be spending money then if they won’t spend prospects, but clearly that’s a “no” from ownership. Which is a shame; as you point out, their current window begs for more pitchers.
This. The Cubs traded away so many good players to get the 2016 banner. After 100 years you gotta do what you gotta do to get that money of your back but that’s why that team core completely disintegrated.
They seem to be pursuing the Pirates and Royals model where success is dependent on your prospect pipeline churning out all the right players at the right time, rather than the “develop prospects and supplement in FA” model that actually creates something sustainable
It’s crazy that we may already be halfway through Adley’s tenure as an Oriole. They may trade him in a couple years before free agency. I don’t think there’s any way they’re giving him 100-200M so I think he’s a goner. That PPI incentive plan getting Adley an extra year of service time could mean the end of the Orioles championship window a year earlier. I know they’ve got a bunch of good prospects, but they have little pitching and prospects are just that, prospects.
Extensions are player specific. The team-friendly ones seem to be easier to do with players from poor backgrounds or didn’t get big signing bonuses (understandable, $3 million might mean being able to start a life for one player whereas another who is already set would be willing to wait to get more). The issue I have the Orioles is just a refusal to trade prospects for proven talent. Last year, one of the best teams in baseball and their move at the deadline is to trade for Jack Flaherty? A trade with Mariners makes sense to me. Mariners have a lot of young starters and need some hitters. Westburg for Bryce Miller?
Heyward did not work out. Lester did good. Lackey did the job.
300 million+ for these 3.
Maybe it’s better to wait a couple more years, rather than going all in?
The Cubs did it, but “barely”!
“The Rays traded six nickels, two dimes, and two pennies for a quarter, three dimes, and a nickel”
The Rays however, as they do, identified that nickel in the return package as a 1913 Liberty Head V Nickel.
Paying for pitching is a tough road. A positional player who is mildly injured might still be able to take the field, or work out of a platoon, or DH, but an injured pitcher either needs rest or medical treatment. Older players tend to get injured more easily and when your best three are at MLB minimum, they are likely young. Yankees paid over $60M last year for two signings, Cole and Rodon. Cole was great, Rodon a complete waste. If you were the O’s would you pay that kind of money for the combined production? I don’t think so. And with all that revenue sharing and RSN money coming in, an owner might just think the $60+M looks better in his wallet.
As Ben notes, there’s still time for something to happen. That said, MLB has failed as a concept if the Orioles manage to go through this open window period without any meaningful external additions.
If he weren’t already employed by the Phillies, I would say this is the perfect job for Dombrowski. Whether or not he’s at fault, Elias has yet to show any ability to operate more than a farm system.
This is a really interesting question to me: Would Dombrowski be able to do anything differently if he were running baseball ops for the Orioles? Is he unusually good at talking owners into spending money they otherwise wouldn’t spend (as I’ve seen claimed occasionally)? Or has Dombrowski merely been fortunate enough to work for owners who are happy to spend money to widen/extend competitive windows? Or is it some of both? Maybe Dombrowski can talk *some* owners into spending money they otherwise wouldn’t, that other GMs couldn’t talk them into spending. But neither Dombrowski nor anyone else could talk the Angelos family into opening their wallets right now?
It is perfectly fine to want to see more in the way of off-season pitching acquisitions, but to claim that Elias has not shown any ability to operate more than a farm system when he took the worst team in baseball to an AL East title and 101 wins is ridiculous.
“they’ve stood still while everyone else around them adds, so it’s safe to say that their standing in the division has gotten worse since 2023”.
Not that safe: teams subtract through addition even if no one knows it yet– the Jays do it seemingly every year– and the Orioles are going to get a bucket of plate appearances from guys like Coby Mayo, Jackson Holliday, DL Hall, Colton Cowser, Joey Ortiz, Cade Povich et al. After all, the Orioles didn’t “add” in 2022 and I think the results spoke for themselves.
All those guys are unproven. Outside of Jackson Holiday, I wouldn’t pencil above average production from any of them as a rookie. I do like Cowser as well, but if he didn’t have the pedigree of being the 5th overall pick, we’d be talking about his whiff rates a lot more which really showed in his small sample size of 26 games in MLB. There may be a long adjustment period with him.
… but that was the same thing going into 2023. There’s a fallacy that adding in free agency = wins and we all know that’s not true. I’d wager it’s not even correlated.
Not really. Adley had a great rookie year. Gunnar was basically what Jackson Holiday is now. Adding in free agency doesn’t correlate to increased wins is a nothing statement. You’re telling me adding Jordan Montgomery, a free agent, wouldn’t improve this team? Spending for the sake of spending isn’t great, but acting as if free agency isn’t a great way to improve your team is disingenuous. It’s better than trading Colton Cowser for Dylan Cease.
Probably you meant 2023 but it made a different point that actually hits harder.
I agree with much of that. From 2023, they have added a half season of a good Grayson Rodriguez, and quite possibly a full season of John Means as an upgrade to the rotation even if they stand pat. The Orioles ERA in the second half of the season, when Rodriguez returned from AAA, was 3.58, which was first in the AL and 3rd in the majors.
Replacing Frazier/Urias at 2B with either a full or at least a majority season of Holliday is likely a big upgrade and Mullins is likely to improve on an injury plagued 2023 season.I would also expect Hall to be a significant contributor either in the bullpen or the rotation.
The Orioles would seem to be the perfect trade partner for another reasonably exciting team from 2023 with an enviable young core not taking 2024 seriously because ownership is committed to a mid-market budget, the Mariners. Each could trade from young depth and be better, and no more expensive, for 2024-2026. What’s the matter with these people?
It does seem like there’s a match there, although I don’t think it’s fair to group the Orioles (projected 81m 2024) with the Mariners (projected 131m 2024). “Mid-market budget” is giving Angelos way too much credit.
Teams with a higher projected 2024 payroll than the O’s include Tampa, Cleveland, KC, Miami, Milwaukee, and, well, everybody except Oakland and Pittsburgh.
I’ll stand the correction – I didn’t realize Angelos’ fist was quite that much tighter than Stanton’s. Still, there’s plenty of room for a more/less payroll neutral deal that benefits both teams.
Seattle is a perfect fit, but right now they don’t want to trade any of their young pitching.
Apparently, but that doesn’t make it a good idea for building a roster to compete with the Rangers and Astros.
The issue is John Angelos. He doesn’t care about winning, and thus you can’t look at what the Orioles are doing through that lens. He wants to make as much money from the team and the state of Maryland as possible and the team winning the World Series is simply not one of his goals. I’m sure he’d be happy to win one but he’s not gonna pay to try and make it happen.
If he’s going to sell, this would be the time. Very low payroll, very good team, ballpark deal secured. They won’t be any more valuable.
Tax liabilities. He’s also making so much money every year, he doesn’t need to sell.
Elias can’t do anything about the budget if John says no. That’s not his fault. What is his fault is willingly going into this season with an extreme logjam in the infield, just letting his assets depreciate in value, because he is too timid and conservative to make a move.
The two most probable explanations:
1) Elias and his elite analytics team don’t believe this was a 101-win team. Their inaction at the deadline supports this. They see 2024 as an evaluation year for their low-mileage SPs and MLB-ready bats (Cowser, Norby, Basallo), while possibly starting the clock on Holliday. Next year is the time to wheel and deal.
2) Elias wants to do more, is in an ownership straightjacket, and will jump at the next GM opening on a big market team.
A little from Column A, and a little more from Column B.
If so, O’s fans can only hope the Rubenstein deal gets close enough to a final MOU pending Peter’s death (I’ll take his bday, July 4th, in the pool) to keep Elias patient for another year. Two years max so they can maybe keep and elevate Sig when Elias peaces out.
John Angelos has already stated clearly, in words and actions, that he will not spend on the Orioles. So, why do so many people write articles saying the Orioles need to spend? Angelos doesn’t care about the Orioles’ record. He only cares about how much profit he is making.
Because spending money = moar wins and potentially moar profits, obviously. /s
I personally don’t care if a team spends tons of money or doesn’t spend tons of money, just as long as they field a roster of good players year in and year out to give themselves the best chance to win a title. Basically, as long as you’re not acting like the A’s or the Rockies, then you’re fine in my book!
I’ve read some reports that Blake Snell is demanding a 9/270 contract. He also rejected 5/150 offer from the Yankees. If that’s the going rate for a good pitcher (and not a great one by fWAR standards, because he’s peaked as a 4 fWAR guy not a 6 fWAR guy like Cole) who does have trouble going deep into games and is on the wrong side of 30, then I don’t necessarily blame the Orioles or really anyone else for not lining up to sign him to anything remotely close to that. I do find it puzzling that they’re seemingly not even interested in the lower and middle tiers of pitching, though. Sure, guys like Montas/Paxton or even the Giolito/Stroman/Sale types probably wouldn’t have moved the needle much more than the guys they do have, but the point is to build a deep staff that can keep the team in the games long enough for their excellent hitters and bullpen to win it. They just aren’t about that, and that’s going to be a problem unless they do address it in the next month or two. They don’t necessarily need a big ace (or near ace) addition, but getting some competent guys who could eat some innings, and provide some competitive quality while they also evaluate whether young guys like Rodriguez, Bradish, etc. can take some steps towards acehood would be huge for this team and can make a difference between 85 wins with no playoffs/maybe WC3, or 90+ wins plus a guaranteed WC berth/maybe a second straight division title.
That’s literally double what I would think is reasonable. I’m not even sure I would do $100M.
It wasn’t that long ago when Robbie Ray signed for 5/115 after his Cy Young year, and he’s a much worse pitcher than Snell. Gausman got 5/110 that same offseason. Also, Rodon got 6/162 last winter and his injury history is as long as Charles Manson’s rap sheet. I think Snell will get something in that neighborhood, because all of those pitchers are very good when they’re healthy and on, but they have enough red flags to their names that prevent them from making 30M AAV or more.
He and Bellinger both seem to have pretty unrealistic expectations that they’re going to have to move off of soon (?)
They’re the best free agents available and are Scott Boras clients. They’re going to demand the moon, and will gradually come down as time goes on. They will still get paid handsomely, though not at their asking prices.
I get what Ben is driving at, but they can’t win a bidding war for Montgomery against any of the teams who are known to be interested in him, and even if they did… are we sure he’s a 4 WAR guy moving forward? They might be better off spreading the money (and risk) around to raise the floor. There are going to be Clevingers and Woodses and Junises available at prices they can afford. Then get the equivalent to Monty at the trade deadline, like they attempted to do with Flaherty last year. There’s probably a better chance of getting 4 WAR out of a roster spot that way than throwing 5/$125mn at Montgomery for his mid-/late-30s coming off of a career year.
That’s what the Brewers under Stearns would do.
Needs will arise, so keeping options open has value also. That is especially true for Baltimore their weird financial situation. They’re in an interregnum. It would be cool if they YOLOed so Peter could go out with a bang, but if I was in their position I’d probably keep flexibility too. It’s not like they’re a fringe-average team, they’re really good!
So you’re thinking Bryan Woo for Jordan Westburg? I’m in.
The Mariners are rightfully holding onto their young pitching like their lives depend on it. Jerry Dipoto himself said that while he got many offers for Miller, Woo, etc., none of the offers were anywhere close to what they wanted. Pitching is expensive right now and that makes their young arms extremely valuable. As a totally unbiased Mariners fan, I would be absolutely livid if they traded these guys away.
This article avoids the modern precedent for what we’re seeing in Baltimore; the 2012-2015 Pirates.
If any organization in baseball would repeat Bob Nutting’s failures it’s one led by John Angelos.
For the fans’ sake I hope the O’s snap out it before they go down this road.
As others have mentioned, I’m 98% that Angelos Jr. is waiting until his father dies to avoid paying the capital gains tax on a sale. In the meantime, he’s not spending, so until there’s a sale – which I’m pretty sure there will be once Sr. passes (sorry to be morbid, but that’s just how it is) – there’s really nothing to talk about.
The goal is to win back to backs for the Norfolk Tides. Tide Strong!
It would be interesting to have more knowledge of which ownership groups are using their teams to make a profit and which teams are spending more to put a winning team on the field. I am constantly suspicious that SF is raking in the dough and playing small-market moneyball.
Trying to win is the new moneyball
I don’t understand why Tyler wells isn’t being thrown out as our #3 starter? Through 104 innings last year he was our best starter with good k numbers. Dodgers TB and New York roughed him up all in a row pushing him to a 3.8 era and now cole irvin is a better option this year? Makes zero sense to me. Take Tyler wells to 125-130 innings this year as a starter. Also go buy a damn pitcher.
Rutschman, paired with Holliday and Henderson, surrounded by a collection of 2-3 WAR players, which the Orioles appear to have in the pipeline, would be a strong team with the Fangraph All-Stars comprising the pitching staff. Is Bradish this good? I don’t know yet. Will Rodriguez live up to the hype? That is still in doubt. Can Means return from TJ? The pitching situation in baseball right now is ridiculous, bordering on insanity. Out and out stiffs are getting huge deals and that is for a greatly reduced number of innings pitched than even 10 years ago. There is very little value in these second line starters who give a team 130-150 innings, maybe if your lucky, at a 4.5+ FIP. Just look at Carlos Rodon or Frankie Montas. I don’t blame the Orioles for sitting tight if the going rate for a Jack Flaherty is $14 million or Lucas Giolito getting $38 million from the Red Sox. There is nothing wrong with not throwing money away on these huge question marks It is easier to find a Yannier Cano, the #38 ranked prospect in the 2023 Oriole’s prospect list at age 28, than it is to hit the lottery on one of the free agent pitchers.
But no one is suggesting here that the O’s go after a #3 SP – they need a playoff starter. Snell and Montgomery are the remaining choices there, and a lefty in Baltimore with that crazy LF cutout certainly seems to make sense. With an extended contention window now open, Means a FA for ’25, not much looking like a top end guy beyond Bradish and G-Rod anywhere in the org, and a $61 million payroll in ’23 that looks to be heading “way up” to about $74 this year at present, now is the time.
They shouldn’t be taking a chance on a flyer or an innings eater – its time to add playoff pitchers, not another Kyle Gibson. Such a move could also spur significant season ticket activity to help finance it. The O’s have run significantly higher payrolls not long ago (near or above $150 million as recently as 2018). Even extending all of Rutschmann, Henderson, and Holliday wouldn’t get them to that level for 4 or 5 years.
I’d also disagree with your perhaps Sox fan related comment on Montas and Rodon. These 2 are not alike. I didn’t think Montas was the right solution for the Reds, but it is possible that he regains health and settles in as a #3. Rodon, who has had multiple very good seasons along with his injury history, certainly could become a playoff starter with health as well. Pitchers don’t always remain hurt forever. You seem high on Means here who also has an injury profile – though TJ not shoulder issues which are often more troubling long term.
Lastly, for every Cano that emerges, there are plenty of guys that don’t. And plenty of guys that do emerge – it seems it happens in Tampa every year – are soon back on the scrap heap. Relievers (not the problem here) don’t cost much in either case. I don’t think Cano will be the O’s 3rd playoff game starter. But maybe D.L. Hall is Bradish 2.0?
But it’s just not their time to bank on hope.
Maybe no one sees this since the discussion happened last week.
But what seems to me to be the kind of trade the O’s (and Fish) might make would be Jorge Mateo for young (but out of options) SP Edward Cabrera. Relatively inexpensive deal both ways with more than 1 control year in both directions.
This wouldn’t solve the O’s top end pitching need – unless Cabrera suddenly and spectacularly solves his issues which is at least possible – but just seems the kind of deal these orgs would consider. Perhaps some adds on either end (Miami could use a 4th OF… out of options and arb next year Ryan McKenna or Kyle Stowers, opening a spot for Cowser or Hjerstad on the active roster) with a lower level P prospect from Miami (Fish have 11 pitchers from #10 to 30 on current MLB ranks) would do the trick?