Cooperstown Notebook: The 2025 Progress Report, Part I

Last week, Kenley Jansen did his best to make life harder for his former team. Pitching for the Angels against the Dodgers in Anaheim, the 37-year-old closer secured the final three outs in a 7-4 victory on Monday, August 11. He gave up the go-ahead run in the ninth inning of a tied game on Tuesday by allowing a breathtaking solo homer to Shohei Ohtani, but the Angels came back, tying the score in the bottom of the ninth and winning in the 10th. On Wednesday, Jansen secured a sweep for the Angels by retiring Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, and Will Smith in order. The loss knocked the Dodgers out of first place for the first time since August 27.
That the Dodgers have retaken the top spot doesn’t detract from what’s been a banner season for Jansen. Pitching for the sub-.500 Angels — his third team in four years since departing the Dodgers in free agency — he’s posted a 2.68 ERA, his lowest mark since 2021. While his 24.6% strikeout rate is a career low and his 4.01 FIP is just off a career high, he’s notched 23 saves in 24 attempts and is now fourth all-time at 470, eight saves shy of Lee Smith’s 478, which stood as the major league record from late 1997 until Trevor Hoffman surpassed it in late 2006. Smith and Hoffman are now in the Hall of Fame, and Jansen has solidified his position as the next reliever due for serious consideration for Cooperstown. Not only does he have a legitimate shot at becoming the third pitcher to reach 500 saves following Hoffman (who finished with 601) and Mariano Rivera (603), but he’s closing in on 2025 enshrinee Billy Wagner’s no. 6 ranking in Reliever JAWS (R-JAWS).
Admittedly, relief pitching is a strange place to start my annual Hall of Fame progress series, but for reasons that will soon become apparent, opening this rundown with the starting pitchers made less sense, and when I began writing this roundup, Jansen’s jump in JAWS surprised me as much as that of any player. At the end of 2023, Jansen was tied for 14th with Craig Kimbrel, but he climbed to 10th by the end of ’24 and is now seventh, closing in on Wagner. So we’re beginning here; in this batch, I’ll get to the starters and catchers as well. Unless otherwise indicated, all statistics are through Monday, August 18.
Relief Pitchers
| Category | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 23.8 | 32.2 | 18.0 | 24.7 |
| 2025: 1.9 | ROS: 0.2 | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 24.0 | 33.2 | 18.2 | 25.1 |
| HOF Standard RP | 37.8 | 29.9 | 19.7 | 29.2 |
With the induction of Wagner, Jansen now ranks as the best reliever outside the Hall by R-JAWS, which uses Baseball Reference’s version of WAR, Win Probability Added, and Situational Wins (WPA/LI):
| Rk | Player | WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mariano Rivera+ | 56.3 | 56.6 | 33.6 | 48.8 |
| 2 | Dennis Eckersley+ | 62.1 | 30.8 | 25.8 | 39.6 |
| 3 | Hoyt Wilhelm+ | 46.8 | 30.4 | 26.3 | 34.3 |
| 4 | Rich Gossage+ | 41.1 | 32.5 | 14.8 | 29.5 |
| 5 | Trevor Hoffman+ | 28.0 | 34.2 | 19.3 | 27.2 |
| 6 | Billy Wagner+ | 27.7 | 29.1 | 17.9 | 24.9 |
| 7 | Kenley Jansen | 23.8 | 32.2 | 18.0 | 24.7 |
| 8 | Joe Nathan | 26.7 | 30.6 | 15.8 | 24.3 |
| 9 | Firpo Marberry | 30.6 | 25.5 | 16.8 | 24.2 |
| 10 | Tom Gordon | 35.0 | 21.3 | 14.5 | 23.6 |
| 11 | Jonathan Papelbon | 23.3 | 28.3 | 13.4 | 21.7 |
| 12 | Ellis Kinder | 28.9 | 23.8 | 11.7 | 21.5 |
| 13 | Francisco Rodríguez | 24.2 | 24.4 | 14.7 | 21.1 |
| 14 | Lee Smith+ | 28.9 | 21.3 | 12.7 | 21.0 |
| 15 | Aroldis Chapman | 23.3 | 24.3 | 14.7 | 20.7 |
| 16 | Stu Miller | 27.0 | 20.5 | 13.5 | 20.7 |
| 17 | David Robertson | 21.8 | 24.2 | 14.5 | 20.2 |
| 18 | Craig Kimbrel | 22.4 | 22.8 | 13.9 | 19.7 |
| 19 | Tom Henke | 22.9 | 21.3 | 13.9 | 19.4 |
| 20 | Dan Quisenberry | 24.6 | 20.7 | 12.5 | 19.2 |
| 21 | Rollie Fingers+ | 25.6 | 16.2 | 15.1 | 19.0 |
| 22 | Tug McGraw | 21.8 | 21.5 | 13.1 | 18.8 |
| 23 | Bobby Shantz | 34.6 | 10.4 | 10.1 | 18.3 |
| 24 | John Hiller | 30.4 | 14.6 | 9.4 | 18.1 |
| 25 | Bruce Sutter+ | 24.1 | 18.2 | 11.9 | 18.1 |
| Hall avg w/Eckersley | 37.8 | 29.9 | 19.7 | 29.2 | |
| Hall avg w/o Eckersley | 35.5 | 26.6 | 18.0 | 26.7 |
Like Wagner, Hoffman, and even Rivera, Jansen doesn’t have a volume of innings on par with some of the older enshrined relievers, but when we factor in the high-leverage nature of his work, he gains ground. In fact, only Rivera, Hoffman and Gossage have higher WPAs among relievers than Jansen, and he’s closing in on the Goose. He’s reached this point with 915.1 innings, 12.1 more than Wagner, who was dinged by many Hall voters for having a smaller workload than any previously enshrined AL/NL pitcher. Jansen has additionally surpassed Wagner’s career strikeout rate as the highest at the 900-inning cutoff (34.9% to 33.2%), though that’s a product of this high strikeout era. Wagner has the edge if you adjust for league rates using our Plus Stats, index stats where 100 represents average. Wagner’s 190 K%+ is 90% above the league average for his career, well beyond Jansen’s 163, though neither can hold a candle to Dazzy Vance’s 225.
Might as well bring these guys into the discussion:
| Category | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 23.3 | 24.3 | 14.7 | 20.7 |
| 2025: 2.5 | ROS: 0.4 | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 23.7 | 25.2 | 15.2 | 21.4 |
| HOF Standard RP | 37.8 | 29.9 | 19.7 | 29.2 |
| Category | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 22.4 | 22.8 | 13.9 | 19.7 |
| 2025: 0.1 | ROS: 0.0 | Career WAR | WPA | WPA/LI | R-JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 22.4 | 22.8 | 13.9 | 19.7 |
| HOF Standard RP | 37.8 | 29.9 | 19.7 | 29.2 |
Both Chapman (39.9% strikeout rate, 187 K%+) and Kimbrel (38.8% strikeout rate, 184 K%+) have higher actual and adjusted strikeout rates than Jansen, but each has thrown at least 100 fewer innings than the converted catcher from Curaçao, and lately their fates have diverged. The 37-year-old Chapman, an eight-time All-Star, has vaulted from 23rd to 15th in R-JAWS this season while posting a microscopic 1.15 ERA for the Red Sox; his 22 saves have run his career total to 357, 14th all-time. The 37-year-old Kimbrel, a nine-time All-Star whom the Orioles released in late September of last season, has made just one appearance this year, a cameo for the Braves, with whom he spent the first five seasons of his major league career (2010–14). He’s slipped from 17th to 18th in R-JAWS, and is stuck at 440 saves, fifth all-time; considering he reached 400 just 16 days after Jansen in May 2023, you can see he’s quickly lost a fair bit of ground. Currently closing for the Rangers’ Triple-A Round Rock affiliate, Kimbrel’s walking too many hitters for his own good and may not get another save chance in the majors.
When the time comes, R-JAWS, strikeout rates, and save totals won’t be the only factors voters consider. Credentials such as All-Star appearances (Jansen has four, well behind Kimbrel’s nine and Chapman’s eight), Reliever of the Year awards (two apiece for Kimbrel and Jansen, one for Chapman), and league leads in saves (four for Kimbrel, two for Jansen, none for Chapman) will be considered, as will their postseason performances. While each of these closers has won a World Series ring (two for Chapman), none closed out a championship, for various reasons. Jansen (2.20 ERA, 20 postseason saves) and Chapman (2.37 ERA, 10 saves) both have a leg up on Kimbrel (4.50 ERA, 10 saves) in October. Chapman, with his 2016 suspension for violating the league’s domestic violence policy, also has a notable mark against him, which may hurt him with some voters.
Moving on, while Robertson is just above Kimbrel in the R-JAWS rankings, his comparative lack of saves (177 for his career) suggests he won’t be much of a factor when it comes to Hall voting. We’re a ways away from any other active relievers entering the discussion; 31-year-old Josh Hader (15.9 R-JAWS) ranks 33rd all-time, but could crack the top 25 next year if he’s healthy… but right now he’s got bigger concerns.
Starting Pitchers
| Pitcher | 2025 WAR | ROS WAR | WAR | WAR7Adj | S-JAWS | Proj S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Justin Verlander | 0.1 | 0.4 | 80.6 | 50.1 | 65.3 | 65.3 |
| Clayton Kershaw | 1.4 | 0.5 | 80.7 | 49.7 | 65.2 | 65.4 |
| Max Scherzer | 1.2 | 0.5 | 76.6 | 47.6 | 62.1 | 62.3 |
| HOF Standard SP | 72.9 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
In the interest of space, I’m batching Justin Verlander, Clayton Kershaw, and Max Scherzer together and taking the express route. All three of these guys are future first-ballot Hall of Famers who have already won three Cy Youngs, at least one World Series ring, and at least 200 games (263 for Verlander, 219 for each of the others). As of July 2, when Kershaw reached the milestone, all three have over 3,000 strikeouts, with Verlander now ninth all-time (3,511) and Scherzer 11th (3,459).
These guys could each walk away today and be assured of their plaques. As it is, all three have spent time on the injured list this year, though they’re back and still battling. The 42-year-old Verlander is 1-9 for the Giants but has a semi-respectable 4.23 ERA in 106.1 innings. The 41-year-old Scherzer is 3-2 with 3.83 ERA in 54 innings for the Blue Jays, while the 37-year-old Kershaw is 7-2 with a 3.01 ERA in 77.2 innings; he’s allowed just two runs over his last three starts totaling 18 innings, the last of which helped the Dodgers halt a four-game losing streak and reclaim a share of first place in the NL West. Kershaw’s performance has been strong enough that he’s projected to surpass Verlander for 19th in S-JAWS by the end of the season; Scherzer is 27th.
If you’re wondering about Zack Greinke, who last pitched in 2023, I covered him in last year’s roundup. Though he walked away just 21 strikeouts short of 3,000, it appears as though we need them more than he does. With 225 wins and an S-JAWS of 62.9 (25th all-time), he’s in fine shape for the Hall and shouldn’t have too much trouble getting elected.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 55.8 | 41.7 | 48.8 |
| 2025: 2.5 | ROS: 0.7 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 56.5 | 41.7 | 49.1 |
| HOF Standard SP | 72.9 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
Chris Sale hasn’t pitched for the Braves since June 18, when he fractured his rib cage trying to make an acrobatic play, though the 36-year-old southpaw is finally nearing a return. While his numbers this season (5-4, 2.52 ERA, 114 K, 2.5 WAR) haven’t done a lot to pad his career totals, he’s made a ton of progress since last year’s update by checking off several boxes. Most notably, he finally took home a Cy Young award after finishing among the top five six times. He won the Pitching Triple Crown on the strength of his 18-3 record, 2.38 ERA, and 225 strikeouts, and led the NL with 6.2 WAR. That’s a lot of new black ink, including his third strikeout title. With 143 wins as he nears the end of his age-36 season, he’s no real threat to get to 200, but he does have 2,528 strikeouts, and a 58% chance of reaching 3,000 according to ZiPS. He’s packed a lot into his 2,047.2 innings.
At this juncture last year, Sale’s S-JAWS was 44.6. He’s now up to 48.8, which puts him within hailing distance of 2025 inductee CC Sabathia (62.3/39.4/50.8), and he’s got the higher peak score of the two southpaws. Aside from 2027 candidate Cole Hamels (59.0/37.4/48.2) and the three guys above, he’s the only upcoming BBWAA candidate within 10 points of the standard. When we think about what the cases of future starting pitching candidates will look like, with their comparative lack of volume (particularly in terms of wins and innings), this might be as good as it gets.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 47.9 | 39.7 | 43.8 |
| 2025: 2.9 | ROS: 0.9 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 48.8 | 40.0 | 44.4 |
| HOF Standard SP | 72.9 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
Jacob deGrom is back from his second Tommy John surgery, and pitching well, going 10-4 with a 2.76 ERA, 148 strikeouts, and 2.9 WAR in 140 innings. He’s also 37, skipping a turn due to shoulder fatigue, and has over 500 fewer innings (1,507), 49 fewer wins (94) and less black ink than Sale. Even with a second Cy Young, his Hall of Fame Monitor score — a metric devised by Bill James that dishes out credit for the achievements that traditionally have swayed voters — is just 54 to Sale’s 101. As you’d expect from a pitcher whose career lacks volume due to a late start and so many injuries, deGrom’s peak score has some low-hanging fruit; this year projects to be his sixth-best (3.8 WAR), and even with it, he also has seasons of 4.6 WAR and 3.4 WAR within that seven-year score, so he could gain traction if he can remain on the field. If he’s to convince voters that he’s some kind of Koufaxian exception, we’re going to need to see the performance.
| Pitcher | 2025 WAR | ROS WAR | WAR | WAR7Adj | S-JAWS | Proj S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Gerrit Cole | — | — | 43.2 | 34.4 | 38.8 | 38.8 |
| Zack Wheeler | 5.2 | 0.2 | 40.3 | 35.5 | 37.9 | 38.1 |
| Aaron Nola | -0.5 | 0.7 | 34.7 | 31.7 | 33.2 | 33.6 |
| Blake Snell | 0.4 | 0.8 | 24.2 | 21.9 | 23.0 | 23.4 |
| HOF Standard SP | 72.9 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
It’s a long way down from Sale (64th in S-JAWS) and deGrom (100th) to Cole (152nd) and Wheeler (161st), with Nola (210th) and Snell (409th) even further away; I’ve bypassed Sonny Gray (248th), Yu Darvish (260th), Jose Quintana (282nd), Max Fried (336th), and Logan Webb (507th) because they haven’t even laid the kind of foundations that this quartet has. You’re better off putting money on Paul Skenes, who’s totaled 11.7 WAR in two seasons and figures to add this year’s Cy Young to last year’s Rookie of the Year award.
Following five previous top-five finishes, Cole won the AL Cy Young in 2023 while claiming his second ERA crown and first WAR lead. Alas, his case has stalled since then, as he was limited to 17 starts last year due to a nerve issue and edema in his elbow, and is missing all of this season due to Tommy John surgery. Still, he’s about 17 months younger than Sale (Cole turns 35 on September 8), is ahead of him in wins (153), and has a 42% shot of reaching 3,000 strikeouts according to ZiPS (he has 2,251). He’s got a pair of 2.6-WAR seasons weighing down his peak score, so he could climb the rankings quickly with even a modest return to form.
After placing second in the NL Cy Young voting for the second time last year, Wheeler was in the midst of another fine season — his third as an All-Star — when doctors discovered a blood clot near his right shoulder. Fortunately it was caught early, but at the very least his season is on the line. A late bloomer who lost 2 1/2 seasons to Tommy John surgery, flexor tendon repair, and a stress reaction in his right arm, he had just 21 wins, 352 strikeouts, and 2.0 WAR through his age-27 season, but he’s now up to 113 wins and 1,820 strikeouts in 1,728.1 innings.
More importantly, Wheeler’s 33.2 WAR (including offense) from 2018–24 led the majors (Cole’s 31.4 is second). Even if he doesn’t throw another pitch this season, he’s got a bigger lead over Cole and company for ’19-25 (34.6 to 26.4), and a massive head start on the field for the ’20–26 stretch (30.7 to Fried’s 22.2). Such rolling seven-year WAR leads might become useful tools in identifying Hallworthy starters as workloads decrease. As old friend Mike Petriello has pointed out, that achievement tends to be the province of future Hall of Famers. In the Wild Card era, the only other hurlers with rolling seven-year leads are Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Johan Santana, Roy Halladay, Verlander, Kershaw, and Scherzer. Counting those last three as slam dunks, 80% of post-integration starters who’ve accomplished the feat at least once are or will be enshrined.
Nola put his Hall of Fame case on the map thanks to his 9.2-WAR 2018 season, but he’s added just one additional campaign worth more than 4.0 WAR (5.7 in 2022), and he’s been injured and ineffective this year, with an ERA that ballooned to 6.92 thanks to a drubbing by the Nationals this past Sunday. He’s still just 32, and has 105 wins and 1,835 strikeouts in 1,673.1 innings, so he’s got some runway if he can recover his front-of-rotation form. Not that you should bank on it.
I mention Snell only because he’s a two-time Cy Young winner; among such pitchers, his 23.0 S-JAWS is much closer to Tim Lincecum (21.7) than to Corey Kluber (34.4), to say nothing of Santana (48.3) or Bret Saberhagen (50.6). He’s just 32 but only has 1,121.2 innings under his belt, including just 129 since his second Cy/ERA crown/WAR lead 2023 season. ZiPS estimates he has a 27% chance of reaching 3,000 strikeouts, which ain’t nothin’, but those odds are lower than those of Skenes (34%) and Tarik Skubal (39%), the latter of whom may bank his second Cy/ERA crown/WAR lead season in as many years and is already gaining on Snell, with an S-JAWS of 17.0 and as many seasons worth more than 2.2 WAR as Snell has.
Catchers
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current (B-Ref) | 38.8 | 29.9 | 34.2 |
| 2024: 2.2 | ROS: 0.6 | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
| Projected End 2025 | 38.9 | 29.9 | 34.4 |
| HOF Standard C | 53.7 | 34.9 | 44.3 |
After playing just 99 games last year due to a midseason meniscectomy on his right knee, J.T. Realmuto has been healthy and available in 2025, but at 34 years old, he’s clearly removed from his heyday. He’s hitting .276/.329/.401 (102 wRC+), marking his third straight season just above league average with the stick, and if he finishes as projected, his 2.8 WAR will be his lowest full-season mark since 2016.
That’s the Baseball Reference version of WAR, which doesn’t incorporate pitch framing. I’ve argued — and will continue to argue until the cows come home — that we can’t properly evaluate catchers from the past couple of decades without such data, particularly with framing maestros Buster Posey and Yadier Molina hitting the BBWAA ballot in 2027 and ’28. I still feel that way despite the travesty of two other fine framers, Russell Martin and Brian McCann, going one-and-done on the 2025 ballot with less than 5% of the vote. Including their offense, defense, and baserunning, their career fWARs, which do include pitch framing, are right in line with the framing-inclusive values of the recently elected Ivan Rodriguez and Joe Mauer (some of which was calculated using Baseball Prospectus’ Retroframing methodology) as well as the aforementioned upcoming duo.
For all of that, Realmuto’s current framing-inclusive line isn’t far off from his “traditional” one: 36.6 career fWAR, 30.8 peak fWAR, 33.7 fJAWS. Early in his career, he was well below average as a pitch framer (-31.5 runs by FanGraphs’ methodology in 2015–16), but after improving to the point of being 8.6 runs above average as recently as 2021, he’s back to 23.3 runs below average over the last three seasons, including -3.7 this year. With just three All-Star selections and two Gold Gloves (no small task in a league with Molina), he’ll have to hit his way to Cooperstown, and I’m not so optimistic he can.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 35.1 | 24.2 | 29.7 |
| 2024: 0.1 | ROS: 0.4 | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
| Projected End 2024 | 35.5 | 24.2 | 29.9 |
| HOF Standard C | 53.7 | 34.9 | 44.3 |
Rightly beloved by Royals fans given that he was the MVP of the 2015 World Series and a foundational piece of the team’s back-to-back pennants, Salvador Perez has a résumé topped by nine All-Star selections and five Gold Gloves. His 48-homer 2021 season started some arguments; he holds the record for most homers in a season by a player who caught at least 50% of his games, but 15 of those homers came during his 40 games as a DH. Both that mark and the actual “record for home runs by a catcher” (42 by Javy Lopez in 2003) might soon fall into the hands of Cal Raleigh, who has 38 homers as a catcher and 47 overall this year.
Anyway, the 35-year-old Perez is showing his age, hitting .244/.288/.449 (97 wRC+) with 0.1 WAR while catching 69 times, playing 28 games at first base, and 27 at DH. He’s nowhere close to the catching standard via traditional JAWS, but his real problem is that he’s got the second-lowest total of framing runs (-120.1) among all catchers since 2008, which is to say that he’s nearly 270 runs worse than Molina in that span alone, though still 45 runs ahead of poor Ryan Doumit. That data can’t simply be waved away now that we have it; this isn’t Derek Jeter’s terrible defense offset by 3,465 hits and five championships. Perez’s career fJAWS line, with that data incorporated into his valuation, is just 19.1 career fWAR, 16.0 peak fWAR, and 17.6 fJAWS, miles behind the framing-inclusive marks of Posey (57.9/47.7/52.8), Molina (59.3/37.6/48.6), and Mauer (57.8/42.7/50.3), not to mention Martin (59.1/40.8/49.9) and McCann (50.6/37.2/43.9).
Among other catchers, Raleigh is at already at 7.0 fWAR this year and — elevated by 39.5 career framing runs — has 20.9 career fWAR and counting as he hits the stretch run of his age-28 season. That’s well behind Mauer (36.6 fWAR) and Posey (36.2 fWAR) at the same stage, but it’s not nothing; between his rest-of-season projection (1.4 WAR) and the five-year ZiPS (24.1) from last month’s Trade Value Series (where he ranked ninth), the Big Dumper could soon emerge as the era’s most viable catching candidate for Cooperstown. Meanwhile, 30-year-old Will Smith is in the midst of a career year that has him vying for the batting average and on-base leads in the NL (.302/.408/.508) while hitting for a 157 wRC+ with 3.9 WAR thus far. He’s in just his seventh season, but the first two of those were shortened by a midseason call-up and then the pandemic. While he’s totaled 22.1 fWAR, he’s 16 runs in the red framing-wise over the past two seasons, including -6.5 this year. He’ll need to clean that up in order to stand out as a viable candidate.
I’ll be back next week with the next installment.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
ugh, I have to wait a week?! I live for this series! Wonderful edition
The link is wrong for Javy Lopez.
Sal Perez strikes me as one of those guys who will get a lot more support from the writers who don’t share their ballots than those who do.
I agree – he strikes me as the next Omar Vizquel-esque candidate (without the baggage, hopefully/one presumes). I don’t necessarily think the Hall would be worse with him in it (though it literally would lower the standard HoF value for catchers, so, technically, yes it would) and I think that he’s also the kind of player who winds up in via the Veteran’s Committee the first time around.
Either way, fun career and will be beloved in Kansas City forever, as he should.
Perez seems to get a lot of credit as a leader and pitching staff handler. And you know what? I’m fine with that. Those are real things and if there’s a consensus that he contributes in that way, it’s fair that he’s getting credit for it. That’s a lot better than someone getting in because someone on the vets committee loved him or because of some nebulous good-guy reputation.
I’ve always wondered what his framing numbers would look like had a bunch of those innings been tossed by Greg Maddux… even on those back-to-back AL champions a lot of innings were tossed by mediocre at best pitchers who had not done anything to convince umpires to give them the benefit of the “shadow zone” calls.
I understand Jaffe’s advocacy for Russell Martin but I don’t know that framing data accounts for the umpire & that umpire’s opinion of the pitcher.
And: it is the hall of fame, not framing, not WAR. The dude is famous for playing whiffle ball with kids in KC… eff Pete Rose, give me the Whiffle Ball King of KC.
I’m an RE24 truther when it comes to relievers…and Jansen and Chapman have gone from 9th and 18th to 8th and 10th, respectively!
He should pass Foulke by the end of this year to own the tier below Hoffman/Nathan/Smith.
At that point, he’ll be closer to Hoffman than Hoffman is to Wagner!
I’m a ‘relievers aren’t very valuable and we shouldn’t look for stats that make them look like they are’ guy. Relievers getting into the Hall should be the rare exception for guys like Gossage, Eckersley, and Rivera. It shouldn’t be considered its own position with its own set of standards.
Stats like…Pitcher Run Value on Statcast?
What part of Tango and Petriello’s methodology, which rates Kenley Jansen as a Top 10 pitcher since 2008, do you feel is invalid?
Why do you feel that way?
(Chapman’s at 11 if you think that pitchers should be penalized for leaving inherited runners and credited for stranding them. He’s at 14 if you don’t)
The part where it makes them look anywhere near as valuable as pitchers who throw three times as many innings per season and accumulate two-to-three times as much WAR.
That’s not an answer.
Be specific about which part of their methodology you think is invalid.
We can reframe it, if you’d prefer:
Make a positive argument for ignoring inherited runners while assessing the value of a reliever’s performance.
Isn’t the standard pitching Run Value on Statcast context neutral? As in, it doesn’t account for starting with an inherited runner or no one on base?
Are you saying that it’s harder to pitch with a runner already on and since relievers can inherit an inherited runner, their going to be be pitching with a disadvantage a higher percentage of time?
Do you have a link breaking down this stat or at least explaining it in more detail than on the Statcast leaderboard page?
This is all the leaderboard page says
From what I can tell, this sounds a lot like a standard linear weights approach. Except afaik, the standard models (like WAR) go on PA outcomes, not pitch outcomes.
Is that even enough to explain how Jansen could be 40th in fWAR and 45th in RA9 WAR since 2008 but 8th in a context neutral linear weights model?
What am I missing?
I’m saying that teams value relievers based on their ability to strand runners, making any model that doesn’t account for relievers’ success in stranding runners prima facie useless.
They recently adjusted the “base” metrics to be RE12 (ignoring the base out state) rather than RE288 (still available as a filter on their leaderboard).
The main thing is that their “Run Value” metrics are WAA – no credit for bulk innings.
This is more or less my position as well. There may be others but those three are the standard. If you’re considering someone who spent part of their career as a closer and part of it as a starter, you have Eckersley as the comp. As a pure closer, you have Rivera. As a fireman, you have Gossage.
There is a big, big gap between Rivera and Hoffmann, Wagner, etc much less to Chapman and Jansen. Rivera’s RE24 is something like 340. Hoffman is at about 180, Jansen’s is 160. I think you might be able to make an argument that no one will reach Rivera’s heights ever again, but how about 75%? They’re not even at two thirds.
That’s fair.
Wagner’s RE24 is ahead of Gossage’s in half the innings…and he’s exactly as far ahead of Hoffman as Hoffman is ahead of Jansen.
(There’s no RE24 for Gossage’s 130 IP of a 5.48 ERA to start his career, but I doubt it helps his case)
I have the standard as “Better than Smith/Nathan,” which is Rivera/Wagner/Gossage/Hoffman.
I don’t think Jansen gets there…but if he does put together another couple of years like his last two and reach the Hoffman range, I’ll say he belongs.
To be clear, I wasn’t specifically making a case against Wagner. I just mentioned the three guys who came to mind as great enough to overcome being a reliever.
> Wagner’s RE24 is ahead of Gossage’s in half the innings…and he’s exactly as far ahead of Hoffman as Hoffman is ahead of Jansen.
Careful there. One could reasonably make the argument that if Rivera pitched the same workload as Gossage, he either would have had to dial back his effort or else his arm would have exploded. Or conversely, if Gossage had been used as a clean-start-one-inning save-situation-only reliever he could have dialed it up and been more dominant.
I look more at total compiled value in making comparisons, and less so at the appearances or innings it took together there.
Okay, Wagner compiled more RE24 than Gossage, full stop.
We could say “In 14 seasons rather than 22” if you’d prefer?
But Gossage isn’t the most logical comp because they had different roles. And it isn’t like Jansen adding a few more years as a closer who should be a 7th inning guy is adding to his main qualification, which is rate stats that are otherworldly during his peak.
RE24 is a counting stat that explicitly accounts for their different roles, though.
I’d also add that I always rated Jansen’s numbers as more on the Hoffman “Consistently very awesome” side, in contrast to Kimbrel’s Wagner-level “Otherworldly” status at his peak…and that RE24 is WAA, so you don’t get to compile any with JAG seasons.
I don’t expect Jansen to get to the Hoffman/Nathan line…but I don’t have any opposition to him being enshrined, if he does.
With the differences in how they’re used, they basically are separate positions in modern MLB, and it’s almost impossible to win a World Series during that time frame without at least a decent bullpen.
The differences in playing time and therefore WAR are just a quirk of those different usages.
I wait for this all year
Saw Chapman pitch again last night – he is just unbelievable. Fluid, powerful, effective. It just goes to show you just how great you have to be to sniff the HOF.
As a completely unbiased mariners fan, I expect Cal Raleigh to put up 8 consecutive 30 homer seasons as a primary catcher (he’s in the middle of his third right now) and force his way into the hall of fame discussion. His case will be further bolstered by the three World Series MVPs I predict he will have.
Of course, with the Mariners’ luck, the three World Series MVPs will be for the Yankees
Hell he might even get a regular old mvp this season
I know this has been out for a few years already, but I really don’t think inventing a whole new version of JAWS because relievers were obviously not as good in the old one gives me much confidence that more relievers in the Hall is the right call.
But I’m also not typically persuaded by this sort of end of career padding. Jansen is not anything by close to what he was with the Dodgers. I’m very much a peak over career type and his peak is very much over.
I don’t think there’s an easy way to get excited about Kenley Jansen when starters with excellent peaks / rate stats were never given serious consideration. Johan Santana is the one that everyone always thinks of, but DeGrom also is in that category, as are Roy Oswalt, Dwight Gooden, Stephen Strasburg, Max Fried, and Kevin Appier.
Kluber as well in that group
It’s really two groups.
Gooden/Stras/Fried/Kluber/Lee/Felix/Lester are a different group to Santana/Oswalt/DeGrom/Saberhagen, with Appier (and Billy Wagner, if you like RE24!) in between.
I don’t particularly care for RJAWS methodologically, because I hate WPA…but I don’t think anyone who thinks Jansen’s talking himself into the conversation opposes Oswalt/Santana/Appier/DeGrom.
Fried and Stras are well behind Jansen in RE24 (behind Robertson and Papelbon, even!), while Jansen’s right there with Gooden.
Wagner’s 25 runs ahead of Felix, in 1/3 the innings, and just 20 behind Appier.
The point is that the peak for (many, maybe not all) of these starters was so high that it starts to look ridiculous that we’re inducting relievers over them. Gooden had a four year run where he had RE24 of over 140. I’m pretty sure that is better than any 8-year stretch that Jansen has had.
I don’t think relievers typically pitch enough to be Hall-worthy, but if we are out there making exceptions for their lack of career value then there is no reason to be avoiding someone like Doc Gooden, who we punish because he didn’t hang on as a 2-win pitcher for 10 years in his 30s.
I mean, half of the value of that “4 year stretch” came in 1985, haha – he cracked 15 RE24 5 times in his career and and 10 RE24 just 6 times.
Vida Blue’s at 3 and 7, excluding his 1971-1973 run.
Jansen’s at 3 and 7 as well.
Lee Smith’s at 4 and 8.
Wagner’s at 6 and 11.
Like, I absolutely rate Doc’s 1985 as one of the greatest pitching seasons of all time, but the issue is that he was done as an ace at 24 and done as a good pitcher at 29.
But that is kind of the point. Gooden’s 1985 is so elite it’s much of the peak of many of these relievers. I think for Jansen it’s better than his 3 best seasons combined, and about comparable to his four best.
If we’re going to ding Gooden for not hanging on as a 2-win starter in his 30s and we are going to wave through relievers who only pitched a thousand innings in their career, this doesn’t make sense.
And my point is that Gooden’s problem wasn’t that he only put up 6 RA9-WAR from 31-35.
It’s that he only put up 16 RA9-WAR from 23-29.
I think there’s a pretty large portion of the baseball fans and media that would vote for (or strongly consider) Jansen but not the latter group. Here are some telling first year HOF voting percentages:
K-Rod 10.8
Nathan 4.3
Papelbon 1.3
Quis 3.8
Avg: 5.1
Appier 0.2
Oswalt 0.9
Santana 2.4
Gooden 3.3
Avg 1.7
There’s a decent number of voters who put top relievers ahead of 50+ WAR starters.
I fully agree that those people are insane, haha – specifically regarding Oswalt and Santana!
I’d add that it actively annoys me that folks are glomming onto Felix after Oswalt got screwed over – save that energy for Hamels!
Cliff Lee is one of the big ones for me when it comes to peak as a starting pitcher, he was so good from age 29 to 34 with a great 80 innings at age 35 before being done due to injury.
Over that 6 year stretch from 2008 thru 2013 he ranked
1st with 38.1 FWAR
1st in shutouts
1st in BB%
2nd in FIP but had 111 more starts than Strasburg who was 1st
2nd in QS to Hernandez with 135 QS out of 186 starts
2nd in CG to Halladay
3rd in WHIP
I am not totally against relievers making the HOF because it is a regular position but if a starter who was this great for 6 years in a row while adding another 10 FWAR in the other seasons of their career only gets 2 votes and falls off the ballot it makes me wonder about relievers in general.
Great post. I always think about guys like Tom Gordon–a pretty good starter who turned into a dominant reliever. Could he have been what Jansen is if he started out in the pen? Maybe, but the teams he played for were intent on using him as a starter because starters are so much more valuable. I imagine the same is true of any of the guys you mentioned.
It also feels like people subconsciously add credit for pitching high-leverage innings even though that value is already included in their WAR totals. That adjustment is supposed to level the field with starters, and yet people seem happy to consider Jansen and his 23.6 WAR for the Hall while they wouldn’t dream of putting say Dan Haren (35.0 WAR), Jose Rijo (36.5 WAR), or Madison Bumgarner (37.0 WAR) in.
I don’t think Jansen belongs yet…but you only see that gap if you use a methodology that says relievers stranding runners creates zero positive value and exiting with runners on creates zero negative value.
As a reliever, Tom Gordon provided 3 times as much RE24 in 30% of the innings.
Three times as much RE24 compared to what?
I thought he meant Gordon produced 3x as much RE24 as a reliever as Gordon did as a starter. But it’s more like 9 times as much RE24 in around 67% of the innings so maybe this is a different comparison.
Compared to his time as a starter.
~30 RE24 in ~1550 innings as a starter.
~90 RE24 in ~550 innings as a reliever.
Absolutely unreal fireman.
Also, are you using RE24 to compare starters to relievers?
I am – it’s a counting stat, after all…and one that doesn’t view starting appearances as inherently more valuable than relief ones, regardless of the duration.
FanGraphs has over 50 years of RE24 data – feel free to take a look.
It says that Schilling, Brown, Santana, Hudson, and Oswalt had HoF quality on-field careers, that DeGrom and Hamels are in Cone/Sabathia/Saberhagen territory…and that Wagner’s closer to Appier than he is to Felix (who’s right there with Lee Smith).
Jansen’s in Webb/Doc/Wheeler/Lee territory
I bet you are in for a surprise when Bumgarner gets on the ballot. Not saying he will make it, but he’s gonna have a lot more votes then fangraphs expects (or he deserves)
Especially when he’s not even as good a hitter as Greinke!
I’m suspicious of a system that names Ellis Kinder one of the all-time top relievers.
I assume he’s not included because he’s no longer active (though, iirc, not formally-retired), but do we all think Greinke is a lock, as well?
Greinke is given a short paragraph at the end of the Kershaw/Verlander/Scherzer section
I actually added the Greinke note after the fact when I saw Smiling Politely’s comment — I had meant to include something brief about him, but it slipped through the cracks. Apologies for the confusion.
I certainly didn’t expect or need Jay to read this far down about a pedantic item, but I guess that’s just what makes FG so special! Thanks!
I would assume he is a lock, but I really don’t think of him as being in the same category as Scherzer, Verlander, and Kershaw. Greinke’s career totals are good enough for Hall consideration but his peak is not anywhere close to the other 3 by either fWAR or RA9-WAR. There is something going on with the defensive adjustments in bWAR that is making him look very, very good and we have seen enough truly weird bWAR defensive adjustments that I am skeptical.
And IDK, just subjectively there were only about 3 years where I would have considered Greinke a league ace. They were awesome years, but the other three were league aces for more than their seven year peak. He will get in and I think there is a good case for him but I just can’t see him in the same class as those other three (especially Kershaw and Verlander).
My gut says Greinke makes it, but, I would not be shocked if he has to wait a year or 2.
I could see “old school” voters not being onboard right away.
A few things that hurt him are that he played for a # of teams (even during his prime) & his big years are spread out over many years, so they lose some of their impact at first glance. He did not have a JV/Scherzer/Kershaw 7-8 year run of dominance & even his best year came on a bad KC team.
Just a guy that I feel some will overlook.
I’m not saying that’s 100% fair or that I believe those things, just that I could see some voters not realizing how good he was until it is pointed out to them.
Greinke’s also a beloved legend off the field.
CC Sabathia just made it on the first ballot – Greinke’s getting 85% on the low end.
I think Greinke probably makes it in on the first or second ballot and I’m pretty sure he will come up before anyone else is on.
But hypothetically if he’s still on when Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer come up I think it could be weirdly long. He is not going to stack up well in comparison to the others.
I think the scenario where he doesn’t get in immediately probably has to do with his personality. I have always had a soft spot for Greinke because he came roaring back from some mental health issues that would have sidelined most players and because he’s amusingly opinionated about a lots of things that don’t matter one way or the other. But he is real introverted and when the press does get a chance to chat with him he doesn’t really blow them away.
Eventually none of this will stand in his way, even if it takes him 5-7 years, and I don’t think it will—I think he is in Year 1 or 2. But I do think there is a small chance this drags on for a while.
He’ll stack up just fine next to Scherzer, whom he currently beats in JAWS, because voters who are stat-savvy enough to go deeper than that know better than to use fWAR for sample sizes of over 3000 BIP.
Like, CC Sabathia just received 87% of the vote – Greinke’s gonna be in the 95 range.
I’m really not interested in the argument that Greinke’s actual run prevention should be discounted on the basis that other pitchers didn’t have Zack Greinke playing defense behind them.
As is, Greinke’s right there with Scherzer in RA9-WAR…and had 8 seasons with 4.5+ RA9-WAR.
Scherzer’s at 9.
Hmmm, this makes me wonder how much of Greg Maddux’s value came from his defense.
In that case, don’t give him credit for his fielding, either.
Given the sample size, I’m quite happy valuing Greinke based on his overall run-prevention, rather than getting into the weeds…but I do find it worth noting that his 93 career DRS more than accounts for the difference between his FIP-WAR and RA9-WAR.
Chris Sale did not hurt himself trying to make an acrobatic play, he hurt himself in fact making an acrobatic play (“acrobatic” for a pitcher I guess).
Great writeup. I especially like the Sale portion–he feels like what a HOF pitcher will be in the coming years.
Given the physical demands of the job, have you ever considered using a 5-year peak for catchers? I wonder how much difference it would make.
Interesting, but how would this work for catchers who moved off the position pretty early to where they have peak years at both C and a separate position, like Mauer?
Cole spent 5 years toiling with the Pirates who spent the whole time gighting his natural ability and trying to turn him into a sinkerballer. In one of his early starts his rookie year he struck out Trout with some 102 habenero cheddar at the letters. They then spent the next 4 1/2 years making him pocket his slider and 4-seamer and pound the bottom of the zone with 2 seamers. If they had let him pitch to his strengths instead of trying to completely rebuild him because he didnt fit their “philosophy”, I am convinced his score would be considerably higher.
This is pretty much nonsense given that his 4 seam % was almost exactly the same with PIT and it was after and the slider usage only ticked up about 3% after. They did get him to throw about 15% sinkers using a model that was super successful for them leading to three playoffs seasons. The approach helped rescue Burnett and Liriano’s careers. I’ll grant you that he did make some more nuanced changes elevating it, but he did have a 5 win season in Pittsburgh with the ground ball approach.
He also upped his knucklecurve usage by 5%.
But yes, the big difference is that the Astros had him elevate his fastball to get pop-ups and whiffs, rather than pumping it down the gut to induce contact.
Yes, I should have known better than to rely on my Yeungling and Primanti’s addled memory and double checked the numbers. You’re correct about the 4 seam usage, although from watching most of those games I feel like some of the sinkers he threw may have been misclassified, but that’s purely anecdotal and relies on my aforementioned unreliable memory.
What that staff did with Burnett, Liriano, and the parade of late-inning relievers that came through was excellent work. But those players were acquired because they had traits that could be optimized within the system. Cole was a shiny new toy unlike anything they had had before and they didnt have either the knowledge or willingness to maximize his production. His K% increased 49% and his K-BB% increased 59% in his first season in HOU and got even better in year 2. Thats huge. A couple more seasons of that type of production early in his career and I’m betting the conversation about his hall chances have an at least slightly more optimistic tone.
Corey Kluber deserves to be a Hall of Famer. He should be considered a Koufax-type exception.
Where does Willson Contreras stand now? While his chances have always been slim, I can’t figure out if moving to 1B permanently this year has helped or hurt him.
Of course, the offensive standards are much higher at 1B than C. Although, part of that is due to the increase in playing time Contreras now enjoys. 1B naturally suffers a huge defensive penalty compared to C, but Contreras has actually shown to be a rather good defensive 1B, whereas he had a rather poor defensive reputation as a catcher.
(The Cardinals actually did get him to significantly improve his framing last year, but it came at the cost of his positioning for throwing out baserunners that had previously been his one defensive strength behind the plate.)
Currently, Contreras would be considered as a catcher since that’s where he’s accrued the most value. That means using fWAR rather than bWAR, and his 24.1 (through his age-33 season) merely ranks 13th among 21st-century catchers — not even half the value of Buster Posey, Joe Mauer, Yadier Molina, Russell Martin, and Brian McCann, many of whom didn’t play past their mid-30s. Even if we were using bWAR and looking towards him as a future qualifier at first base, his 29.1 WAR through age 33 is behind guys like Kevin Youkilis, Derrek Lee and Carlos Santana https://stathead.com/tiny/hVVAv. I don’t see Cooperstown in his future.