Cubs Accurately Rate Underrated Jose Quintana
There’s a fairly prevalent belief that teams should be reluctant to trade with other teams in the same city. Something to do with rivalries, or whatever. You don’t want to have a valuable former asset helping out some other club just a few miles away. Indeed, if you examine trading histories, these moves are fairly uncommon. Baseball has established a precedent by which intra-city ballclubs seldom come together for a swap. However, that’s stupid. The Cubs and White Sox realize that’s stupid, and so, as of Thursday morning, we’ve got ourselves a blockbuster.
Cubs get:
White Sox get:
It’s long been fairly obvious that Quintana was going to get moved. While he’s a long-term asset, he’s really a short-term asset under long-term control, and the White Sox probably would’ve liked to have moved him last winter. Seeing Quintana get dealt isn’t surprising. It’s also not surprising to see the Cubs jump on a cost-controlled, somewhat young starter. This has been the rumor for what feels like years. They developed their bats, and they’ve needed to acquire pitching. Quintana is said pitching. Everything about this makes sense, once you move beyond whatever shock you might feel about the two Chicago teams reaching an agreement. This is a sensible exchange. It’s also a total doozy.
One truth that can’t presently be escaped: the Cubs aren’t in a great place in the playoff picture. They’re 5.5 games behind the Brewers in the division, and they’re 7.5 games behind the Rockies in the wild card. There’s less than half of the season to go, so on paper this is unusual — midseason additions tend to be made by teams in better places. But, well, you probably know how this goes. The Cubs are the defending champions, and they’re presumably better than the Brewers. They’re presumably better than the Rockies. So, they ought to make up ground. The projections still like them plenty. And there’s also the matter of Quintana not just being a 2017 addition. The Cubs could have him through 2020 if they like, which is important given their aging rotation. Quintana helps now, and he helps later, so again, we come back to the point that this makes all the sense in the world.
Whenever we write about Jose Quintana, we’re almost obligated to note that he’s been underrated. We’ve perhaps called Quintana underrated so many times that he’s no longer underrated, but I don’t think that’s accurate, because even just reading responses elsewhere to this news, Quintana still isn’t considered all that much. I understand that his ERA this season is up. I understand he’s not a big strikeout dynamo. But I can’t find any actual decline in his stuff. Quintana is pitching the same as ever, and he has perhaps worse catchers than ever. Seems to me, he’s fine. And, what is Jose Quintana, exactly? Over the past three years, he ranks seventh among all pitchers in WAR. Over the past two years, he ranks ninth among all pitchers in WAR. In the rest-of-season projections, he again ranks ninth among all pitchers in WAR. Quintana’s plenty good. And if you want another way to think about him, this should help:
| Pitcher | Starts | IP/Start | WAR | K% | BB% | K-BB% | Strike% | IF/FB% | HR/FB% | Fastball (mph) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jose Quintana | 96 | 6.3 | 13.9 | 22% | 6% | 16% | 64% | 11% | 9% | 91.8 |
| Jon Lester | 97 | 6.3 | 13.4 | 25% | 6% | 19% | 64% | 10% | 11% | 91.8 |
Over the past three years, Quintana and Lester have basically been the same guy. Lester has gotten a few more strikeouts, but he’s also been in the National League, and Quintana has suppressed more home runs. By value, they’ve been virtually identical, and while Lester was born in 1984, Quintana was born in 1989. It stands to reason Quintana might have more left in the tank. And then there’s the money. This is where it’s easy to get tripped up. It’s easy to forget about how player value is a function of both ability and contract commitment. The Cubs signed Lester as a free agent for six years and $155 million, with a seventh-year option. Here’s what Quintana has:
- 2017: $7 million (less than half remaining)
- 2018: $8.85 million
- 2019: $10.5 million club option ($1 million buyout)
- 2020: $10.5 million club option ($1 million buyout)
It’s absurd how team-friendly that looks. It’s not Quintana’s fault, and remember he’s been dropped by both the Mets and the Yankees — there’s nothing wrong with just wanting long-term cost certainty. Quintana will never have to worry about money again. But a huge part of his appeal is that, relative to his performance, he is just massively, massively underpaid. Even after this year, he’s under contract for about three years and $30 million, and it’s even more team-friendly than that, since there are buyouts in case anything goes wrong. And then there’s the second half of 2017, too. The stretch run. Possibly or probably the playoffs. Quintana is good, Quintana is durable, and Quintana is cheap. His contract will give the Cubs more flexibility down the road as their young core becomes increasingly expensive. It’s not always easy to develop and maintain a long-term core while staying under the luxury tax.
So, Quintana is very good. I can’t see any reason why he should be considered worse now than he was in 2016. According to the expected wOBA numbers at Baseball Savant, Quintana now is the same. He’ll provide a measure of certainty, given the issues with Lester, Kyle Hendricks, Jake Arrieta, and John Lackey. For the privilege of using Quintana every five games or so, the Cubs are paying a hefty price. To look at this from the White Sox’s perspective: Last winter, when they traded Chris Sale, they got Baseball America’s No. 2 prospect, and the No. 32 prospect, along with two other pieces. Now, in moving Quintana — and referring to the updated midseason list — they’re getting the No. 5 prospect, and the No. 83 prospect, along with two other pieces. The package isn’t as valuable as the Sale one, in large part because Cease isn’t considered as good as Michael Kopech. But the most valuable prospects in the game are highly-ranked position players. Jimenez is within shouting distance of Yoan Moncada.
In fairness, this return contains plenty of risk. Jimenez, Rose, and Flete have all been playing in High-A. Cease has been playing in regular A. These aren’t players who have seen much in the way of advanced competition, and so there is any number of ways for things to go wrong from here on out. But in the White Sox’s rebuild, they’re shooting for the moon, and Jimenez comes with that enviable upside. It’s even partially informed by Statcast.
Jimenez briefly made headlines for having a batted ball tracked at 119.4 miles per hour. Now, it was actually just a ground ball, and there’s some possibility the number is wrong. I don’t want to make *too* much of it, but let’s just say, for the moment, that it happened, and the number is right. Immediately, that number on its own is meaningful. That number would reflect Jimenez’s raw power, or bat speed. Very few players have reached such an exit velocity — that’s Giancarlo Stanton or Aaron Judge territory. It’s also Peter O’Brien territory. Prospects are risky. You know how this goes.
But Jimenez is 20 years old, and while he strikes out, he doesn’t have a strikeout problem. Right now he has a career-high walk rate against the highest level of competition he’s faced, and the scouting reports have long lauded him for his bat speed and strength. Jimenez might not ever win a Gold Glove in the outfield, but there’s no better trait than big power, and his is some of the biggest. Don’t go too far down the Judge path; players don’t work out as well as Aaron Judge. It’s just that Jimenez could be a good one, quickly. Power like his gives a hitter a rather large margin of error.
Cease is a young hard-thrower with a curveball. He gets a whole bunch of strikeouts while allowing too many walks, so he’s still a few tweaks away. There’s plenty for Cease to prove before he’s given a shot to be a long-term big-league starter. Rose is a first baseman with proven power. Flete is a versatile infielder with new power. Flete has 14 career professional home runs since 2012, and he’s hit 12 of them since last July. At least statistically speaking, he’s rising, so you shouldn’t dismiss him as a throw-in. Flete could be turning into something; any of these players could become something.
The grandest hopes are pinned on Jimenez. And when you allow that no prospect is perfect, he’s about as good as the White Sox could’ve hoped for. He’s a young slugger with an improving eye and light-tower power, and maybe, in a few years, he’ll be as good in the majors as Jose Quintana is already. Around when, you know, the White Sox are ready to be something. From the White Sox side, you see Jimenez, and you drool. From the Cubs side, you see Quintana, and you also might see that Jimenez could have a little too much Jorge Soler. Every prospect is a risk, and Quintana can help a good ballclub tomorrow.
Say this for Quintana — he probably won’t be underrated anymore. Not if he keeps pitching well, not in that jersey. The Cubs see him for what he is, and they’ve so added another core piece. The White Sox also saw Quintana for what he is. They held out long enough to get a little uncomfortable, but in the end, they’ve made the splash they knew all along they could make.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Awesome piece, Jeff. If we could post videos, I’d give my comment in such form lol.
However, what a fantastic deal for both sides. Cubs are in a compete-now mode and while their position player ranks are young, controllable, and most importantly very good, their pitching is largely old. This season has shown the inconsistencies this pitching staff has.
Quintana fits the mold Theo seemingly wants out of his starting pitchers: not too high velo, good location, should give you at least 6IP type guys. While these traits are *good*, you have to wonder if sticking to this mold has led to such a poor pitching performance. However, the formula worked last year and the rest-of-season performance will show if the first half was a fluke.
Quintana gives the Cubs necessary leverage this offseason. Instead of having to replace Arrieta’s and Lester’s spots, they can focus primarily on replacing one spot. Lester and Quintana are amazing #1, #2 starts and you gotta think re-signing Tier A pitchers like Arrieta or Darvish will fill out the rotation.
Lets not forget about the White Sox: Rick Hahn, for the lack of a better word, is OG and he will be respected as such. Can’t think of a series of fantastic trades to re-stock the farm system like this.
This is good baseball, folks
Ghangis Hahn has pillaged the local village this time!
I can think of a similar “series of fantastic trades to re-stock the farm like this.”
5 years ago, on the other side of Chicago.
It worked out pretty well.
Also how about the Yankees over the last two or three years? They’ve done it without having a single losing season. Traded Chapman for Gleyber Torres, Warren, McKinney, and Crawford. Traded Beltran for Dillon Tate. Traded Miller for Clint Frazier and Justus Sheffield. Traded JR Murphy for Aaron Hicks.
And never had to *tank* in the process.
Cashman is spooky.
To be fair, if there is a single team who have the resources to build up a crazy farm system without tanking, the Yankees are it. This shouldn’t diminish Cashman’s stature as one of the best GMs in the game but not a ton of teams could do that.
I think Cashman was sort of fortunate that he needed to retool right at a time when relief aces were suddenly all the rage and teams were willing to give up packages for them that would’ve been unthinkable not long ago.
This. As a Red Sox fan, it scares me how much this Yankees renaissance is playing out like the one in the 1970’s, where the Yanks stole guys like Nettles, Randolph, Munson, Rivers and Lyle in trades before they even made a splash with the big name free agents.
this “restocking” more resembles San Diego.
> Quintana gives the Cubs necessary leverage this offseason. Instead of having to replace Arrieta’s and Lester’s spots, they can focus primarily on replacing one spot.
Arrieta is a UFA after this season, but Lester is signed through 2021 so I don’t know what you mean here.
He/she meant Lackey, not Lester
Yep, I meant Lackey. My bad!
Ahh, I see! Since Lackey has been below replacement level this year, I guess it didn’t come to mind that he would have to be “replaced” at all. 🙁
You can upload a video on youtube and post the link here. Put your money where your mouth is, friendo.
Done!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Well played! Here’s what I think about this article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDcBKVKQizg
Please stop using .3 and .7 when talking about innings. This is the only website that I visit where I find them written like this and it throws me off every time. what’s wrong with the classic .1 and .2 notations?
I’ve honestly never noticed that… weird.
Edit – I wonder if it’s because they’re not manually entering it, and it’s just whatever program is doing the math?
For averages, doesn’t it make more sense to be more precise? I get why, when just listed, you’d go with .1 or .2, but for an average per game, using the 10 scale makes more sense. If they are rounding to the nearest third of an inning and then listing it out like this, then I agree with you. That would be weird.
That wasn’t intentional. I just divided the innings straight by starts and wrote the result without thinking about it.
I like it better, because it communicates the values more effectively.
But 6.3 is still 6.1, it’s not more accurate, it’s just the non-baseball way of writing it. Even with an average you’re never going to have anything different that a .0, .1(.3), or .2(.7).
I get what you’re saying, but that’s technically not true. Averages can be all over the map. In the most simple example, a player with two starts of 6 innings and 7 innings, respectively, has an average of 6.5 innings per start. Somebody who throws 220 innings over 34 starts averages 6.47 IP/start.
It’s obviously up to each individual how much they value an average of one extra out every other start, but that’s the effective difference between reporting it as 6.5 as compared to rounding that up or down to the nearest third.
Yeah, you’re right, I confused myself by including the word average. Which makes little sense, but it’s true!
Yes, in the future please write them as “.3333…” and “.6666…” to be completely accurate.
I tried to use the Unicode combining overline character here to make a joke but, alas, Fangraphs’s commenting system misrendered it.
In general, I prefer .3 and .7 as if it is a dataset I am going to take and do something with [averages, standard deviations and the like], then I have to manually make them .33 or .67 to have the math right
i must say this is riveting baseball conversation!
I’m a little unclear what definition of “have the math right” you’re using where that one particular extra decimal place is the one that makes the difference.
“But the most valuable prospects in the game are highly-ranked position players. Jimenez is within shouting distance of Yoan Moncada.”
Would you go so far as to say that Jimenez and Moncada are in the same ball park?
You’re welcome.
Boo this man!
Haha your comment has 69 positive votes, please don’t vote up or down for this comment anymore.:)
This may have been funny if your username were Rob Gronkowski.
Quintana has to be the most polarizing pitcher in the fangraphs/metrics world. He’s the clash of new school vs old school; his numbers are good, but he doesn’t always “wow” you. Look no further than the other piece today; both view points highly upvoted. His polarization has always been really interesting to follow. I side with the great and underrated camp.
I don’t know if he’s that polarizing in the fangraphs orbit. Almost everyone agrees that he’s been one of the most valuable pitchers over the last few years. I think outside of this little bubble, lots of people question his value…but at least in here, all reasonable people have to admit that he has produced a ton of value in the last few years.
But he does seem to bring out a lot of hidden assumptions. Is “greatness” defined by peaks or consistency? How seriously do we take his struggles this year for predicting future performance? How many #1 pitchers are there at any given time? Those aren’t arguments over Quintanta’s past value, but more about what we value.
I concur. You can downgrade a pitcher with good results and middling stuff if there is a relatively small sample size. But Quintana has pitched very well in MLB for several years – so in my mind he is underrated
Also his stuff really is not “middling”. He has the same fastball velocity as Lester, who has never been known as a soft-tosser. He gets great movement on his two-seamer. He has an excellent slider/cutter, good curve, and good changeup. No, he isn’t Noah Syndergaard, but it’s not like he’s Mark Buehrle either.
Lester is a lefty (LHPs have lower average velocities than RHPs) and used to throw harder.
You realize Quintana is a lefty too, right?
Andrew: Yes, but johan’s comment about Lester (or Quintana for that matter) not being “known as a soft-tosser” has more to do with them being LHPs. And as noted, Lester used to throw harder than he currently does. It’s also worth mentioning that Lester’s curveball has been more valuable than Quintana’s, while his change up has been vastly more valuable. Since 2012, no change up has produced more negative value than Quintana’s.
Exactly. The comparison to Lester is a great one. Watching Lester is almost boring because he’s rock solid across the board, there’s nothin “special” about him. If he hadn’t pitched for the Red Sox and Cubs, there’s a good chance he would be viewed like Quintana.
When lester was young he sat mid 90s and even just lat year he was around 93 or so.
A lot of people think the Cubs gave up way too much for Quintana, but this is the price that these pitchers go for now. Someone like Quintana, a #2-3 starter that can give you 200 innings is very valuable in today’s landscape.
#7 in all of baseball since the start of 2013.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0
tied with Lester…
Well, he’s only 12th in RA9-WAR over that span! Clearly,
he’s a mid-rotation guy.
This is one of those trades that Billy Beane calls a “f***ing A” trade. Good job, Cubs!
Kiké Hernandez
What
My favorite odd mid-season trade was when the Minnesota Twins traded Delmon Young to the rival Tigers, during a series between the 2 teams. Can you imagine having to show up at the ballpark the next day suddenly playing for the opposing team?
I look fondly on this trade because the Twins no longer had Delmon!
Ichiro did this in 2012. On July 22nd he played in Tampa Bay in a Mariners jersey. On July 23rd, he played in Seattle in a Yankees jersey. The Mariners returned to Seattle, the Yankees arrived in Seattle, and in the middle of that a trade went down and he switched clubhouses. I happened to have tickets for one of those games, in the right field bleachers a couple of rows behind the Ichi-meter lady (whom he went up to and thanked directly at the end of the series). It was a weird, weird day. He may be the only non-retiring Yankee to get a standing ovation in Safeco.
Eh, he’s never retiring anyway 🙂
Wasn’t there a pitcher in Moneyball who switched teams just before a game?
The great story is about Joel Youngblood. On 8/4/1982 he started for the Mets in Chicago in an afternoon game. He was traded during the game to the Expos, flew to Philly and played that night for Montreal.
Yes, it was Ricardo Rincon
The DBacks traded Jon Garland to the Dodgers mid-game against them in 2009, if I recall correctly. The cameras caught some guys coming down telling him he probably needed to leave the dugout.
Sadly he did not immediately pop up in the Dodgers dugout, which would have been hilarious.
Good trade for both sides…Quintana’s contract is, amazingly, a better value than Sale’s, but you always pay a premium for the WOW factor that Sale offers.
As a Sox fan, I gotta mention his off-field presence too. An ace that was expensive to acquire, coming in and being a leading presence on the team with a lot of competitiveness has been really appreciated with how annoying Boston media is.
You always pay a premium to go from good to great.
How about his weighted sinker that was a plus pitch last season at 11 to now a -13? This is a pitch he throws 20% of the time.
This leads me to believe the elevated HR/FB from last season isn’t going anywhere.
I do this deal if I’m the Cubs, but I do not believe the CHC are getting the peak Quintana of last season unless his stuff in the NL plays the way his stuff did the last 3 seasons in the AL.
I don’t much like this trade’s implications for the prospects of other teams wanting to acquire pitching in the next few weeks, and possibly other immediate help as well. Quintana being valued at “Fangraphs appropriate” is pretty much the maximum market possible.
Quintana’s FIP- has risen steadily from a peak (valley?) of 72 in 2014 to 77 in 2015 to 81 last year to 89 this year.
Are there any indicators that he may be able to stem the tide moving forward? I think this trade is great for the pitcher that Quintana was, for the pitcher he seems to be becoming I am not so sure.
Agree completely, Keith Law just put out his mid-season prospect re-rank. He has Jimenez leaps and bounds ABOVE Moncada offering light-tower-power with good contact to keep the BA up, Quintana could blow his elbow out the next pitch he throws…plus I lost Jimenez in my NL-only and that is not replaceable :-/
Tell us more about the implications for your fantasy team, that’s what we were most wondering about! Any good options on the waiver wire, or will you have to swing a trade with J-Dawg? No one likes J-Dawg…
This is the several-million-dollar question, isn’t it? I have read so many takes from both sides about what this means for Quintana’s future that I’m getting dizzy. I’m a soft “he’s declining” but even that is scary for me.
Some mighty fine work Mr Jeff. Well thought out and logical. You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have have NOT been found wanting!
There’s no question that Jose Quintana has been a tremendously valuable player for the White Sox, but as others have commented, there are some worrying trends that cast some doubt on whether the Cubs are getting that same guy. People are also understandably less impressed with contract value than performance excellence, especially in an environment without a hard salary cap. Quintana is interesting to me in that he’s sort of the opposite of the pricey reliever trend. Lately, perceived overpays for relievers were justified by pointing out that elite relievers pitch a higher than normal percentage of the team’s innings during the playoffs, and playoff games understandably carry more weight for teams than regular season games. In contrast, Quintana’s value stems primarily from churning out four consecutive seasons of two hundred well above average regular season innings. He’s a player who will do a great deal to help a team reach the playoffs, but as the “ace” discussion a while back suggested, he wouldn’t necessarily be someone you would count on for elite performance once you got there. Given the Cubs’ current record as well as the age of their pitching staff, it’s easy to see why they would make this move, even if Eloy is a high price to pay.
they may ‘accurately rate him’ but they also far outbid all other clubs. still bidding against themselves
What position do you hold in the White Sox front office?
just someone who can read
Of course they outbid other teams. That’s why they got him. Let’s not be silly here.
reading is hard! He wrote “far outbid”
I think the hordes of people claiming that Quintana doesn’t have TOR stuff are people who have never watched him pitch. He sits low 90’s, but he has a ton of movement on several pitches, and well above average control. His sequencing is excellent and he never loses his poise. His homer suppression isn’t an accident — it’s the result of a very heavy fastball and an excellent changeup that get located on the corners, and he can touch 94 on a face high fastball to generate whiffs and pop-ups.
He’s a really good pitcher, and you can tell if you watch him throw.
Quintana’s “homer suppression” is a myth resulting from a particularly fortunate 2014 campaign. When you look at the rest of his career, that 2014 HR/FB% stands out as the outlier. Also, his change up is the opposite of excellent, having produced more negative value than any other change up in the major leagues since 2012.
His HR/FB% was also well below the league average in 2015 (8.6% vs. 11.4%) and 2016 (9.5% vs. 12.8%), and don’t forget this is despite pitching in a home park that is a home run haven. It’s not a myth.
Two thoughts, which pretty much offset:
1. The White Sox dealt 3.5 bargain years of the guy who ranked 7th in WAR over the past 4 years — and they got four players who’ve yet to reach double-A? That seems more like the *first* move of a total rebuild, not what you’d expect of a team that had already traded its two best players for prospects.
2. On the other hand, Quintana’s walks are WAY up this year, almost half again his prior rate. Any method that sees him as “the same” seems dubious to me.
P.S. My brother the White Sox fan (and even bigger Cubs hater) is really irked that this deal cost the Cubs no short-term value.
Calling this trade a “blockbuster” is an exaggeration. It’s a notable trade.
The title should read, “White Sox Accurately Rate Quintana, Land Top Prospect in Trade”