Dazzy Vance, The Ultimate Outlier

We spend a lot of our time writing about outliers on these pages. Performance outliers, such as Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout on the offensive side, and Clayton Kershaw and Felix Hernandez on the pitching side. We focus on those who took outlier paths to the big leagues, such as Cuban imports like Aroldis Chapman and Yoenis Cespedes, or even late-career conversions like Jason Lane. As far as outliers go, Hall of Fame pitcher Dazzy Vance has them all beat.

I had the privilege of spending this weekend at Saber Seminar in Boston, a superb event undertaken for a exceptional cause, the Jimmy Fund. At the media panel yesterday, which featured our own Dave Cameron among a group of distinguished group of web and print journalists, an interesting common thread was discussed – story-telling. Whether you are a beat writer recapping last night’s game, or a Fangraphs writer discussing the wonders of Andrelton Simmons‘ defense, you had better be able to make it entertaining. Whether you’re Rick Reilly or Tom Tango, or anyone in between, you’ve got to tell a story. Bill James‘ amazing ability to do so is likely the main reason so many of us do what we do. Dazzy Vance makes this one easy for me – the story basically tells itself.

To borrow a phrase from ESPN’s 30 for 30 documentaries – what if I told you…….that a pitcher once accounted for 8% of an entire league’s strikeouts, possessing more than any other two pitchers combined? That a pitcher who never took a regular turn in a rotation until age 31 would go on to make the Hall of Fame, despite pitching for poor clubs for the vast majority of his career? That a pitcher who won only 197 games made the Hall of Fame – on his 16th time on the ballot, taking longer than any other player ever elected by the BBWAA. That all of these pitchers were the same exact guy – Dazzy Vance. He was an outlier in all of these individual aspects – an outlier among outliers.

Let’s start with the dominance – the extreme, utter dominance. In Vance’s third year as a regular starter with the Brooklyn Robins – at age 33 – he went 28-6, 2.16, for the perennial second-division club, driving them to a 2nd-place 92-62 finish, just 1 1/2 games behind the pennant-winning Giants. None of those numbers were the eye-catcher, however – that would be his strikeout total of 262. That may not seem like an overly impressive number at first glance, but consider this:

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1924 NL K TBF K %
Dazzy Vance 262 1221 21.46%
Burleigh Grimes 135 1345 10.04%
Dolf Luque 86 924 9.31%
Johnny Morrison 85 981 8.66%
Tony Kaufmann 79 888 8.90%
Vic Keen 75 895 8.38%
Vic Aldridge 74 1051 7.04%
Pete Donahue 72 934 7.71%
Art Nehf 72 710 10.14%
Jimmy Ring 72 964 7.47%
Total NL 3381 46981 7.20%

First of all, no, I have not made up any of these names. Vic Keen, in particular sounds like the moniker of a before-his-time early rock and roll DJ. Let these numbers sink in a bit, though. Dazzy Vance struck out 262 batters, almost twice as many as the next guy, fellow Robin and Hall of Famer Burleigh Grimes. They were the only two over 100 strikeouts. Vance struck out not only more than any other two hurlers combined, but if you remove Grimes from the equation, he struck out more than any three other pitchers combined. That’s staggering. The league as a whole had a 7.20% strikeout rate – and Vance virtually tripled it. That’s even more staggering. He recorded nearly 8% of the 1924 National League’s strikeouts all by himself. That’s, well – that’s something. One of the few things that can be compared to is this:

1920 AL HR PA HR %
Babe Ruth 54 616 8.77%
George Sisler 19 692 2.75%
Tillie Walker 17 649 2.62%
Happy Felsch 14 615 2.28%
Joe Jackson 12 649 1.85%
Elmer Smith 12 527 2.28%
Bob Meusel 11 494 2.23%
Wally Pipp 11 687 1.60%
Bobby Veach 11 672 1.64%
Aaron Ward 11 551 2.00%
Total AL 369 47805 0.77%

You might have heard of the guy at the top of that list. Perhaps the second most interesting thing on this is list is the present of Happy Felsch and Joe Jackson, who were part of the Black Sox club that lost/threw the previous season’s World Series – a couple of pretty impressive careers were cut short by the fallout, but not until after the 1920 season. It’s not a stretch to say that Vance’s dominance belongs in the same discussion as Ruth’s.

But back to Vance. Sure, he struck out a ton of batters compared to the norm in 1924, but how does that dominance match up across eras? I measured the number of standard deviations above/below the league average K rate of all ERA qualifiers going back to 1901. Here are the top ten:

Rel K Rate Leaders Yr. Lg + STD
Vance 1924 NL 4.86
Vance 1925 NL 4.39
Martinez, P. 1999 AL 4.26
Vance 1923 NL 4.23
Waddell 1902 AL 4.17
Waddell 1903 AL 4.00
Vance 1926 NL 3.99
Ryan 1978 AL 3.95
Ryan 1987 NL 3.88
Vandermeer 1941 NL 3.82

Obviously, with the explosion of K rates in the modern era, not too many guys have cracked this list recently. Still, it’s quite amazing that Vance takes four of the top seven slots on the all-time list. Only Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez among the pitchers listed are likely to have been seen in the flesh by anyone reading this, unless one of our older readers had the honor of seeing back-to-back no-hitter guy Johnny Vandermeer in his or her younger days. If this list was expanded to 25 slots, two more Ryan seasons would be added, along with one more Pedro – and five, count ’em five, Randy Johnson seasons. Sandy Koufax would round out the list at #25. That’s how historically dominant Dazzy Vance was, in relation to his peers.

Why hasn’t Vance’s name been passed down more prominently throughout the years? Partially due to the relative brevity of his career, but also to his lack of a postseason record. He never pitched in post-season play until a token appearance at age 43 on the 1934 Gashouse Gang Cardinals. How good was Vance compared to the clubs for whom he pitched?

Name W L PCT TM PCT DIFF
Pedro Martinez 219 100 0.687 0.551 0.136
Randy Johnson 303 166 0.646 0.518 0.128
Roger Clemens 354 184 0.658 0.541 0.117
G.C. Alexander 373 208 0.642 0.535 0.107
Walter Johnson 417 279 0.599 0.501 0.098
Sandy Koufax 165 87 0.655 0.561 0.094
Curt Schilling 216 146 0.597 0.503 0.094
Lefty Grove 300 141 0.680 0.589 0.091
Cy Young 511 316 0.618 0.528 0.090
Tom Seaver 311 205 0.603 0.515 0.088
Dazzy Vance 197 140 0.585 0.499 0.086
Christy Mathewson 373 188 0.665 0.583 0.082
Mike Mussina 270 153 0.638 0.558 0.080
Ron Guidry 170 91 0.651 0.573 0.078
Carl Hubbell 253 154 0.622 0.555 0.067
David Cone 194 126 0.606 0.548 0.058
Greg Maddux 355 227 0.610 0.552 0.058
Tommy Bridges 194 138 0.584 0.533 0.051
Fergie Jenkins 284 226 0.557 0.506 0.051
Rube Waddell 193 143 0.574 0.537 0.037
Steve Carlton 329 244 0.574 0.537 0.037
Jim Bunning 224 184 0.549 0.519 0.030
Don Sutton 324 256 0.559 0.533 0.026
Bert Blyleven 287 250 0.534 0.511 0.023
Nolan Ryan 324 292 0.526 0.504 0.022

This eclectic group of 25 pitchers represents the starters with the most combined standard deviations above the average of their league’s ERA qualifiers in K rate and K/BB ratio for their respective careers. They are ranked by the difference between their career winning percentage and their teams’ cumulative winning percentage over their qualifying seasons. While he ranks in the middle of this illustrious list by this measure, it should be noted that Vance’s clubs are the only ones to have a sub-.500 cumulative record. It’s exceedingly tough to be recognized as an all-time great, given the historical focus upon pitcher wins, when you toiled for mediocre clubs for the vast majority of one’s career, but Vance pulled it off.

And he got to the Hall of Fame. You’ll notice the name of Mike Mussina on the above list. He is considered by many to be, at best, a borderline Hall candidate. You see, his 270 wins and career .638 winning percentage aren’t quite enough, let alone his exceptional peripherals which are suggested by his inclusion on the above list. If Mussina is borderline, how on earth did Dazzy Vance get elected by past generations’ BBWAA voters? He was not a Veterans’ Committee addition. And what’s the deal with that 16th year of eligibility? For most of recent Hall voting history, players received a maximum 15 years of BBWAA consideration, which was shortened to 10 just a couple months back.

First, let’s look at the Hall voting results for 1936, the very first Hall of Fame ballot.

Rk Name Votes %vote
1 Ty Cobb 222 98.2%
2 Honus Wagner 215 95.1%
3 Babe Ruth 215 95.1%
4 Christy Mathewson 205 90.7%
5 Walter Johnson 189 83.6%
6 Nap Lajoie HOF 146 64.6%
7 Tris Speaker HOF 133 58.8%
8 Cy Young HOF 111 49.1%
9 Rogers Hornsby HOF 105 46.5%
10 Mickey Cochrane HOF 80 35.4%
11 George Sisler HOF 77 34.1%
12 Eddie Collins HOF 60 26.5%
13 Jimmy Collins HOF 58 25.7%
14 Pete Alexander HOF 55 24.3%
15 Lou Gehrig HOF 51 22.6%
16 Roger Bresnahan HOF 47 20.8%
17 Willie Keeler HOF 40 17.7%
18 Rube Waddell HOF 33 14.6%
19 Jimmie Foxx HOF 21 9.3%
20 Ed Walsh HOF 20 8.8%
21 Ed Delahanty HOF 17 7.5%
22 Pie Traynor HOF 16 7.1%
23 Frankie Frisch HOF 14 6.2%
24 Lefty Grove HOF 12 5.3%
25 Hal Chase 11 4.9%
26 Ross Youngs HOF 10 4.4%
27 Bill Terry HOF 9 4.0%
28 Johnny Kling 8 3.5%
29 Lou Criger 7 3.1%
30 Johnny Evers HOF 6 2.7%
31 Mordecai Brown HOF 6 2.7%
32 Frank Chance HOF 5 2.2%
33 John McGraw HOF 4 1.8%
34 Ray Schalk HOF 4 1.8%
35 Al Simmons HOF 4 1.8%
36 Chief Bender HOF 2 0.9%
37 Edd Roush HOF 2 0.9%
38 Shoeless Joe Jackson 2 0.9%
39 Sam Crawford HOF 1 0.4%
40 Home Run Baker HOF 1 0.4%
41 Fred Clarke HOF 1 0.4%
42 Bill Bradley 1 0.4%
43 Nap Rucker 1 0.4%
44 Kid Elberfeld 1 0.4%
45 Connie Mack HOF 1 0.4%
46 Rube Marquard HOF 1 0.4%
47 Dazzy Vance HOF 1 0.4%
48 Charlie Gehringer HOF 0.0%
49 Billy Sullivan 0.0%
50 Gabby Hartnett HOF 0.0%

First, you want to talk about a clogged ballot? Here ya go. And yes, they were allowed only 10 votes per ballot, even back then. At least they used them, as the 226 voters listed an average of 9.87 players on their ballots. In this stiff competition, Vance was fortunate to get a single vote. Just getting on this initial ballot, however, was a great sign for his chances, as only eight of the 50 – one of them Joe Jackson – have not yet been inducted.

From this humble beginning, an unprecedentedly long BBWAA HOF journey began. It went something like this:

Yr Vote %
1936 0.4%
1937 5.0%
1938 3.8%
1939 5.5%
1942 15.9%
1945 7.3%
1946 15.3%
1947 31.1%
1948 19.0%
1949 21.6%
1950 31.0%
1951 31.0%
1952 44.9%
1953 56.8%
1954 62.7%
1955 81.7%

You’ll notice that it took a long time for his candidacy to gain a head of steam, and also that a vote was held only every three years for a short period in the early 1940’s, not exactly a way to break the Hall’s first ballot logjam. Interestingly, when Vance finally gained induction in 1955 – six years before his death – there were three other players (catcher Ray Schalk and outfielders Edd Roush and Ross Youngs) in their 16th year on the ballot. In 1956, a rule was changed, increasing the maximum number of years elapsed from a player’s retirement until his last year on the ballot from 25 to 30. One by one, this rule snagged those three, with Roush the last to disappear from the ballot after his 19th try in 1960, when he led the voting at 54.3%, far short of the induction bar. All three eventually were inducted by the Veterans’ Committee, with Roush quickly getting the nod in 1962. Vance remains – and always will remain, barring some unforeseen draconian reversal in voting rule trends – the only player elected to the Hall by the BBWAA after his 15th year of eligibility. He is one of a number of examples – including, most recently, Jim Rice and Bert Blyleven – of players who now will not get a sniff of induction thanks to the recent shortening of maximum ballot tenure from 15 to 10 years.

There hasn’t been a lot written about Dazzy Vance. For more, I recommend the SABR biography page, written by Charles F. Faber. There you’ll see some interesting anecdotes, such as the one about the card game and ensuing elbow surgery during his minor league career that was pivotal in setting the stage for his major league success. We write about the numbers, most often, but behind the numbers there often lie some very intriguing stories. I would have loved to witness Dazzy Vance in his prime – just four years after Babe Ruth began dominating in a way a hitter never had, Vance was doing the same on the mound, albeit for a relatively short period of time. It’s important that we keep his and other seminal but mostly forgotten names alive as we pass this game down to younger generations.





26 Comments
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Orsulakfan
11 years ago

Great article! I wish I could get a picture of him on the mound. What kind of stuff Vance did he throw? Wasn’t he an exceptionally hard thrower?

AC
11 years ago
Reply to  Orsulakfan

While there were obviously no radar readings at the time, there is one small grain of historical evidence that he threw hard:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/poetry/po_line.shtml
“V is for Vance
The Dodger’s very own Dazzy;
None of his rivals
Could throw as fast as he.”

Certainly Ogden Nash is entitled to some artistic license, so it would be folly to outright proclaim him the hardest thrower of the time, but no amount of license would proclaim the same of Jamie Moyer in a modern update to the poem, so it’s probably fair to say he was at least known for throwing hard, without being able to quantify it.

Emcee Peepants
11 years ago

Oh Dazzy, you lovable scamp: “After a series against the Giants in Flatbush, the Robins took a midnight train for Boston and found that the Braves, who had just finished a series in Philadelphia, were on the same train. The miscreants cut eyeholes in pillowcases, pulled them over their heads, and invaded the Braves’ sleeping car. Announcing that they were the Ku Klux Klan, the miscreants awakened the Boston players and dragged some of them out of bed. When they found catcher Mickey O’Neill, they demanded to know what his signs were, and the terrified backstop eventually told them.”

Emcee Peepants
11 years ago
Reply to  Emcee Peepants

Also, if you sort the 1924 leaderboard by complete games, it reveals Sloppy Thurston in 3rd place with 28 (narrowly missing exceeding his strikeout total of 37) and Urban Shocker (who obviously played for the Browns) in 16th place with 17.

Are sure baseball in the 1920’s actually happened and historians aren’t just effing with us?

The Captain
11 years ago
Reply to  Emcee Peepants

That sounds a lot like the names and stats of the created players you get in Road to the Show. They’re named things like Leroy Champagne and Reginald Bravo and no one ever strikes out and RPs win 30 games and catchers have 300+ passed balls.

JLuman
11 years ago

Love the use of standard deviations above mean.

Wobatus
11 years ago

I recognized the names of 4 of the pitchers on the list of 1924 strikeout leaders. Vance, Grimes, Luque and Nehf.

Burleigh Grimes was the last legally sanctioned spitballer. He was among 17 grandfathered in when they banned the spitball, and he lasted longest. He had 33 complete games in 1923, and won 2 games in the 1931 world series at 37, including game 7. Nicknamed Ol’ Stubblebeard (evidently flecked with spit). He’s in the Hall.

Adolpho Domingo de Guzman Luque, aka Dolf Luque, the Pride of Havana, born in La Habana, Cuba, won 194 games. He pitched in 2 world series, the 1919 Reds win over the balck Sox and the 1934 Giants win over the Senators. He didn’t start in either but won a game in 1934 at age 42 and in his 9.1 innings in relief he gave up no earned runs, 3 hits, struck out 11 and walked 2.

And Art Nehf. I remembered he’d pitched for the Giants but not much else. Turns out he won 20 games twice. And he won the deciding game of 2 World Series, game 8 (yup, 8) in 1921, beating Waite Hoyt 1-0, and game 5 in 1922 3-2 over Bullet Joe Bush. Both complete games, back when the Giants ruled NY and the Yanks were upstarts. In 79 career World Series innings he had a 2.16 e.r.a. He ws the last pitcher with 3 hits in a world series game until Hershiser in 1988. Unfortunately, no catchy nickname and he sounds more like an accountant. His middle name was Neukem, so if he’s pitched in the ’50s he might have been called Nuke Nehf or H-Bomb. Or Post-Modern Art.

jrubyMember since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  Wobatus

Never knew the 1919-1921 World Series were best of 9.

You learn something every day on fangraphs. And, a testament to us all: you learn something every day in the fangraphs comments!

highrent
11 years ago

Read the bio. But mentioned but his story is one of my all time favorite stories in baseball. He had gotten hurt and didn’t find out his chronic injury until 1920 or so. His surgery very likely to be bone chip removal gave him a new lease on life. The Brooklyn robins had to be convinced to take him but they were definitely glad that they did. I believe Bill James named him one of the best fastballs of his era and this is an era with left Grove and Walter Johnson still pitching :D. http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/5c1fec75

Cyril Morong
11 years ago

I can find the link, but last year Joe Posnanksi polled his readers and only 44% vote for Dazzy for Posnanksi’s Hall of Fame.

Cyril Morong
11 years ago
Reply to  Cyril Morong

I meant I can’t find the link

highrent
11 years ago
Reply to  Cyril Morong
Cyril Morong
11 years ago
Reply to  highrent

Thanks but what you gave is not the Posnanski link, which might not exist anymore

Cyril Morong
11 years ago

What also seems impressive is how high he ranks in fielding independent ERA adjusted for the league average and park effects. This ranking comes from Fangraphs (FIP-). Here is the career top ten for pitchers with 2000+ IP as of last May:

Pedro Martinez 67
Roger Clemens 70
Rube Waddell 71
Randy Johnson 73
Curt Schilling 74
Walter Johnson 75
Noodles Hahn 76
Christy Mathewson 77
Dazzy Vance 77
Lefty Grove 77

Orsulakfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Cyril Morong

Now we need a Noodles Hahn article!

Cyril Morong
11 years ago
Reply to  Orsulakfan
Cyril Morong
11 years ago

I did something with standard deviations back in 2009. I used HRs, BBs, Ks (how many SDs from the league average) to estimate ERA. Vance came in first (it only started with 1920) 2000+ IP

http://cybermetric.blogspot.com/2009/06/rick-reuschel-for-hall-of-fame.html

Here are the top 20 in terms of how many standard deviations below the average ERA they were for their careers:

Dazzy Vance –1.25
Lefty Grove –1.21
Roger Clemens –1.18
Greg Maddux –1.14
Carl Hubbell -.94
Randy Johnson -.92
Kevin Brown -.91
Dwight Gooden -.89
Mike Garcia -.84
Hal Newhouser -.82

Hurtlocker
11 years ago

Awesome article!! Baseball at it’s purest. I’m thinking that Lefty Grove may show some similar outliers compared to his peers.

highrent
11 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlocker

His ERA- is amazing as well.

highrent
11 years ago

His ERA- is amazing as well.

TKDC
11 years ago

Barry Bonds and IBB should be talked about with ultimate outliers.

Bob
11 years ago

Imagine all the gifts at the Vic Keen funeral.

I’ll show myself out.

Huck
11 years ago

From my program from the 95 HOF induction ceremony (although think originally came from Glory of their Times):

“Vance was by far the roughest guy I ever hit against. Even worse than Walter Johnson. I mean, he was wicked. Oh, he had a curve, it started here and broke right around your knees, and on account of the contour you couldn’t see it. It was like an apple rolling off a crooked table. You couldn’t hit him on a Monday…He’d cut the sleeve of his undershirt to the elbow, you know, and on that part of it he’d use lye on it to make it white, and the rest he didn’t care how dirty it was. Then he’d pitch overhand, out of the apartment houses in the background of Ebbets Field. Between the bleached sleeve of his undershirt waving and the Monday wash hanging out to dry – the diapers and the undies and sheets flapping on the clotheslines – you lost the ball completely. He threw balls by me I never even saw.”

Rube Bressler

Al Dimond
11 years ago

I’ve been thinking briefly about interesting career comparisons, and stumbled across Curt Schilling. For some reason I can’t seem to get cumulative WAR graphs, but their graphs of wins by nth-best season are really similar, and the graphs of wins (both cumulative and not) by age have some interesting similarities, too. In terms of wins, Vance was fairly similar to Schilling at ages 34 and up… but had a couple great seasons in his early 30s where Schilling had good ones in his mid-20s. Both of them combined stuff with guile, both were at their best later than most, both had better health in their 30s than their 20s.

Pitcher wins don’t really translate across eras and contexts, but I’m not sure what does. Schilling was never an extreme outlier like Vance was with strikeouts because that would be impossible. He did rack up significantly more WAR in somewhat more innings and way more games. How could a pitcher with such outlying strikeout totals not be putting up Ruthian WAR seasons? Because with fewer home runs being hit, contact was less dangerous and strikeouts less valuable, I guess. Ruth was ahead of his time as a HR threat, and that mattered more than Vance being ahead of his time as a K machine. Not that 63 WAR after age 30 isn’t awesome however you slice it.

A different Mike
11 years ago