For Pete Rose (1941-2024), the Hustle Has Finally Ended

Tony Tomsic-USA TODAY NETWORK

Pete Rose died on Monday at his home in Las Vegas, closing the book on an 83-year life that included an incredible, record-setting 24-year major league career that was soon followed by three and a half decades of wandering in a desert of his own making. Handed down by commissioner Bart Giamatti in 1989, his permanent banishment from organized baseball for gambling — a prohibition that dates back to predecessor Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis’ effort to clean up the game in the wake of the 1919 “Black Sox” scandal — prevented the all-time leader in hits and games played from cementing his legacy with enshrinement in the Hall of Fame, and from working within baseball in any capacity.

Backed by a sizable contingent of admirers and apologists — and a smaller faction of truthers, a group that at one point included Bill James — Rose spent decades denying his transgressions, lying to the public, to baseball officials, and to himself. Deprived of the financial windfall that would have come with election to the Hall, “The Hit King” chose instead to try making a buck with anything he could put his name on. That included everything from a 2004 no. 1 best-selling autobiography, My Prison Without Bars, in which he admitted in print to gambling while managing the Reds (he had done so in pre-publication publicity as well) to autographed balls with the inscription “I’m sorry I bet on baseball.”

That assertion rang hollow given Rose’s apparent lack of contrition, his unwillingness to reconfigure his life as a precondition of his reinstatement by MLB, and his continued lies. Not until 2015 did he admit to gambling during his playing career, after ESPN’s Outside the Lines obtained copies of documents verifying his bets in 1986 while serving as the player-manager of the Reds. Elsewhere during the last decade of his life, a credible allegation of statutory rape dating to the 1970s, uncovered by prosecutor John Dowd during his investigation into Rose’s gambling, undermined his latter-day reinstatement effort while further chipping away at his public standing. It’s been a fall from grace without parallel, at least among baseball’s icons.

On the field, Rose was a dynamo, a stocky, 5-foot-11 switch-hitter who made up for his lack of physical gifts — beyond great eyesight and bat-to-ball skill — with a competitive intensity and high-energy, hard-nosed style of play that wouldn’t have been out of place a half-century before his 1963 arrival in the majors. “He played every game like it was the seventh game of the World Series,” said his longtime teammate Joe Morgan. Signed by the hometown Cincinnati Reds out of high school in 1960, Rose was a second baseman even in the minors, perceived as lacking the arm strength to play shortstop, the speed to play the outfield, or the power to play a corner position. “Can’t run, hit, throw or field. All Rose can do is hustle,” read one early scouting report.

Hustle. That word would stick to him. When he sprinted to first base after drawing a walk in a 1963 exhibition game against the Yankees, Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle derisively nicknamed him “Charlie Hustle” — but Rose, who earned the second base job and would go on to win Rookie of the Year honors, wore the moniker as a badge of honor. In 2017, he recalled watching a game with his father, Harry Rose, a bank teller and semiprofessional athlete of local renown, and a demanding figure whose drive and intensity young Pete subsumed.

“I was eight or nine years old and watching (a game),” Rose told the Cincinnati Enquirer. “Enos Slaughter sprinted to first base on a walk. My dad told me that was what you needed to do to be in position to be able to advance further if possible. So I started doing it… That became the way I played. My dad said the quicker you get to first base, the quicker you go around the bases.”

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Even in the prime of a playing career that at the major league level stretched through 1986, Rose was not “the greatest player in the history of baseball,” as talk show host and fellow Ohio native Phil Donahue introduced him for a 1985 episode celebrating his 4,192nd hit. Nor was he the equal of Ty Cobb, the dominant Deadball Era player whose record he broke. Rose was a singles- and doubles-hitting superstar, and a tremendously popular one in the way that perennial .300 hitters have been for over a century. It’s easy to forget with the home run boom of the last three decades, but batting average has equaled entertainment value for so much of the game’s history, and if that has made Rose a touch overrated and polarizing when measured by 21st-century sabermetric standards — not unlike Derek Jeter or Ichiro Suzuki — he was still admired and beloved, particularly in Cincinnati, where he was the hometown boy making good, a blue-collar player cheered by blue-collar fans.

Rose’s skills, such as they were, made him a top-notch leadoff man — his total of 2,924 hits from that spot has been surpassed only by Rickey Henderson — and a catalyst on numerous contending teams, including eight that made the postseason and six that reached the World Series. Cincinnati never won a pennant during the years between his debut and the advent of division play in 1969, but he helped “The Big Red Machine” — which also numbered future Hall of Famers Morgan, Johnny Bench, and Tony Perez among its stars — to NL West titles in 1970, ’72, 73, ’75, and ’76, winning the pennant four times (all but 1973, the year his aggressive takeout slide into 150-pound Mets shortstop Bud Harrelson triggered a brawl during the National League Championship Series). The Reds won the World Series in 1975 and ’76, with Rose earning MVP honors in the first of those while hitting .370/.485/.481 in the seven-game classic against the Red Sox. After signing a four-year, $3.225 million contract with the Phillies in December 1978, he helped them to a trio of division titles in 1980, ’81 (first half of the strike-split season) and ’83. They captured their first championship in franchise history in 1980, and another pennant in ’83, when Rose was reunited with Morgan and Perez. Sports Illustrated christened them “The Wheeze Kids,” as by season’s end all three were over 40. In 301 postseason plate appearances, Rose hit /.321/.388/.440, a big step up from his regular season .303/.375/.409 (118 OPS+) slash line.

In part because he stuck around in pursuit of milestones well after his skills had eroded (dragging the aforementioned slash line down), Rose’s numbers are staggering, seemingly as out of reach for hitters as Cy Young’s are for pitchers. In addition to the career record for hits (4,256), he owns the records for most games played (3,562), plate appearances (15,890), at-bats (14,503), times on base (5,929), and singles (3,215); meanwhile, he ranks second in doubles (746), sixth in runs (2,145), and ninth in total bases (5,752). He qualified for a batting title with a .300 average or better 15 times, all within a 17-season span (1965–81) that was notorious for its low batting averages. He won a trio of batting titles, in 1968 (“The Year of the Pitcher”), ’69, and ’73, finishing in the top 10 13 times, and in the top 10 in on-base percentage 11 times.

Once he hit his 30s, Rose became a more contact-oriented hitter at the expense of his power:

Pete Rose, 1965–81
Seasons Ages H/Yr HR/Yr BB% K% AVG OBP SLG OPS+ WAR/Yr
1965–71 24–30 202 13 9.0% 9.2% .319 .382 .461 132 5.2
1972–81 31–40 197 5 10.5% 5.7% .312 .388 .416 124 4.0
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference

Rose collected at least 200 hits in a season 10 times, leading his league seven times, more than any other AL/NL player besides Cobb. Ironically, he fell two hits short of 200 in 1978, the year he tied Willie Keeler‘s 82-year-old National League record by collecting hits in 44 consecutive games; only Joe DiMaggio’s 56-game streak from 1941 was longer.

Rose made 17 All-Star teams and started eight times at five different positions (first, second, and third base, plus left and right field). He was the NL MVP in 1973, when he hit .338/.401/.437 with career highs in hits (230) and WAR (8.3 via Baseball Reference, the version I’m using throughout this piece); despite hitting five homers to Willie Stargell’s league-leading 44, he edged the Pirates slugger in the voting. He’s the last NL position player to win MVP honors with a single-digit homer total (Suzuki did so in the AL in 2001, but before Rose, you have to go back to Maury Wills in 1962 to find precedent in either league). Rose finished in the top five in MVP voting four other times, including 1968, when he was the runner-up behind Bob Gibson, and took home Gold Gloves in ’69 and ’70 while playing primarily right field. While he never led his league in WAR, he finished in the top 10 six times, all from 1968–76, with third-place finishes in 1973 and ’76 (7.0).

For as strongly identified as Rose was with those pennant-winning Phillies teams, he actually finished below replacement level in both seasons, with -0.4 WAR (and a 94 OPS+) in 1980 and -1.7 WAR (and a 69 OPS+) in ’83. For the 1982–86 stretch, which included a brief stint with the Expos before a late-’84 trade back to the Reds to become player-manager, he netted -2.5 WAR while hitting for an 86 OPS+. His value at that point was as a gate attraction, a concept not lost on either the Expos (with whom he collected his 4,000th hit on April 13, 1984) or the Reds, whose owner, Marge Schott, brought him back to Cincinnati as he pursued Cobb’s record, which he broke on September 11, 1985.

When Rose took the reins of the Reds from Vern Rapp in mid-August, 1984, they were 51-70. They went 19-22 the rest of the way, then rocketed to 89 wins and a second-place finish in the NL West in 1985 while increasing attendance by 44%. Three more second-place finishes followed, and meanwhile Rose got into deep, deep trouble. According to Michael Sokolove’s 1990 book Hustle: The Myth, Life, and Lies of Pete Rose, MLB had been investigating Rose’s gambling habits since the early 1970s, when they centered around horse racing. “Before Rose was even halfway to Cobb’s hit record, the office of baseball commissioner Bowie Kuhn had identified him as a problem gambler and a probable violator of the game’s rules against gambling ‘associations,’” wrote Sokolove. According to a new biography by Keith O’Brien, Charlie Hustle: The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose, and the Last Glory Days of Baseball, in 1977 Kuhn sent Henry Fitzgibbon, a former FBI agent who had become MLB’s head of security, to monitor Rose and his mistress, a woman named Terry Rubio whose father was a bookie. The following year, Rose took Fitzgibbon to meet with his bookie to “prove to Fitzgibbon that he wasn’t in debt and he wasn’t in trouble.”

Apparently satisfied with the evidence, Fitzgibbon backed off, and whatever file was created by the league’s investigation disappeared. Even as Kuhn banned Mantle and Willie Mays from the game in the early 1980s merely for serving as greeters at casinos, he did not touch Rose. Kuhn’s successor, Peter Ueberroth, reinstated Mays and Mantle in 1985, but before the end of his term, he picked up the pursuit of Rose. Dick Wagner, who as general manager let his star depart after the 1978 season, had also been the one who had gotten MLB and Fitzgibbon involved in investigating Rose; by the late 1980s, he was a special assistant to the commissioner. In early 1989, just before yielding his position to Giamatti, Ueberroth announced that the league was conducting a “full inquiry into serious allegations” concerning Rose, and both the Cincinnati Post and New York Post reported sources telling their publications that he had gambling debts in the range of $500,000 to $750,000.

In his role as special counsel to the commissioner of baseball, Dowd investigated and detailed Rose’s pattern of gambling. In May 1989, he submitted a 225-page report with testimony and documentary evidence — “overwhelming corroboration from interviews, telephone records, taped phone conversations and betting records,” as Sports Illustrated described it — that he bet on baseball, placing bets with bookies through intermediaries. His bets, which were generally around $2,000 per game, included games involving the Reds from 1985 to ’87; he also bet on football and basketball. According to Dowd, Rose fell so far into debt that one bookie refused to take further bets from him.

On August 24, 1989, Rose voluntarily accepted a place on baseball’s ineligible list in exchange for MLB agreeing to make no formal finding with regards to the gambling allegations. At the press conference announcing what amounted to a lifetime suspension, Giamatti said, “In the absence of a hearing and in absence of evidence to the contrary… yes, I have concluded that he bet on baseball.” The commissioner additionally affirmed that he concluded Rose bet on his own team, and said that there was “no deal” for reinstatement, though the rules allowed for a banned player to apply for reinstatement in one year.

“Despite what the commissioner said today, I didn’t bet on baseball,” said Rose, who also added, “I don’t think I have a gambling problem at all.” Nonetheless, he called the settlement fair and said he planned to apply for reinstatement when eligible. He also agreed to dismiss a federal lawsuit against Giamatti contending that he had been denied the right to a fair hearing by an unbiased decision-maker. Eight days after the announcement, Giamatti died of a heart attack at age 51.

Because he last played in 1986, Rose would not be eligible for election to the Hall of Fame until the 1992 BBWAA ballot. Concerned that the writers might elect him on the basis of his overwhelming statistical qualifications — citing the so-called character clause would not be in vogue until players linked to performance-enhancing drugs, such as Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro, became eligible in the 2000s — in February 1991, the Hall’s board of directors voted unanimously to adopt a rule excluding from consideration players on the permanently ineligible list. “The directors felt that it would be incongruous to have a person who has been declared ineligible by baseball to be eligible for baseball’s highest honor,” said Hall of Fame President Ed Stack. “It follows that if such individual is reinstated by baseball, then such individual would be a candidate for election.”

Within the BBWAA, there was enough dissent that 41 writers (9.5%) included Rose on their 1992 ballots despite no provision for write-ins existing. Three writers submitted blank ballots in protest of Rose’s removal from consideration by the writers, which didn’t prevent Tom Seaver from setting a record by receiving 98.8% of the vote.

Such protests would continue, albeit with diminishing returns, but the Hall still hasn’t budged on the rule, and neither have Giamatti’s successors when it has come to reconsidering Rose’s eligibility or, as some hoped when Bud Selig left office in early 2015, issuing a pardon. In early 2015, Selig’s successor Rob Manfred met with Rose and was similarly unswayed. In formally denying his request in December 2015, Manfred wrote that Rose “has not presented credible evidence of a reconfigured life either by an honest acceptance by him of his wrongdoing … or by a rigorous, self-aware and sustained program of avoidance by him of all the circumstances that led to his permanent ineligibility in 1989.”

“Most important, whatever else a ‘reconfigured life’ may include, in this case, it must begin with a complete rejection of the practices and habits that comprised his violations of Rule 21,” he added, referring to the section of the Major League Baseball rulebook covering gambling. Section 21(d)(2) is the big one:

“Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible.”

Whatever further efforts Rose made for reinstatement were derailed mainly by allegations of sexual misconduct. In 2017, the Phillies planned to induct him onto their Wall of Honor, but rescinded the invitation when a sworn statement by an unidentified woman — collected by Dowd back in the 1980s and submitted as part of his defense in a defamation lawsuit — alleged that Rose had a sexual relationship with her beginning in 1973, when she was 14 or 15 years old, below the age of consent in Ohio (16 years old). In court documents, Rose acknowledged the sexual nature of his relationship with the woman but stated his belief that the woman was 16 at the time. Rose’s defamation lawsuit stemmed from Dowd alleging in a 2015 radio spot that Michael Bertolini, one of Rose’s gambling associates, not only placed his bets but “ran young girls for him down at spring training, ages 12 to 14.”

No criminal charges were filed against Rose, as the statute of limitations had expired, but he could not evade the impact of the allegations. In 2022, the Phillies received permission to include Rose as part of the festivities honoring their 1980 World Series-winning team. When Philadelphia Inquirer reporter Alex Coffey asked him what he would say to people who say his presence at the event sent a negative message to women, he replied, “I’m not here to talk about that… It was 55 years ago, babe.”

Regarding the interaction with Coffey, Rose told an Associated Press reporter, “I’m going to tell you one more time. I’m here for the Philly fans. I’m here for my teammates. I’m here for the Phillies organization. And who cares what happened 50 years ago? You weren’t even born. So you shouldn’t be talking about it, because you weren’t born. If you don’t know a damn thing about it, don’t talk about it.”

As illustrated within director Mark Monroe’s 2024 HBO documentary Charlie Hustle and the Matter of Pete Rose — a four-part series for which I was interviewed and appeared on-screen — the reunion appearance was supposed to serve as a stepping stone for Rose’s eventual reinstatement. Yet his actions at the event (which also included a very awkward on-camera non-apology to Coffey from a Rose representative, with Rose himself merely offering to sign 1,000 baseballs for her), and the new attention drawn to the allegations of his misconduct, produced an outcry that almost certainly sealed his fate when it came to reinstatement, at least within his lifetime. The lasting image of Rose isn’t just of a fallen star whose addictive behavior and self-deception cost him the thing in life that he loved the most; it’s of a man who continued trying to steamroll everything in his path well into his ninth decade, damn the human cost. Everyone else was Ray Fosse, the catcher whose shoulder Rose separated in a brutal home plate collision in order to score the winning run in the 1970 All-Star Game.

I spent several hours preparing for and interviewing for Monroe’s documentary. I’ve spent even longer thinking about, talking about, and writing about Rose over the past two decades, both within my Hall of Fame coverage and outside it. Memories of Rose’s career take me back to the beginnings of my baseball fandom. His 1978 season — in which he collected his 3,000th hit, reeled off his epic hitting streak, and then left the only team he’d ever played for — was the first one this eight-year-old fan and baseball card collector absorbed. I loved watching him play. The crouched stance, the short strokes as he dumped balls over infielders’ heads and into the shallow outfield, the sprints down to first base on walks, the head-first slides, the perpetual exuberance, the bouncing of that terrible bowl cut — it was all tremendously engaging, at least before his endless pursuit of Cobb’s record turned his later years into a slog.

I was a freshman in college during the spring of 1989, with my attention to baseball headed towards its lowest point when the allegations regarding Rose’s betting surfaced. By the time I wrapped my head around the case, he was out of the game for good, a situation whose sadness was compounded by the sudden death of Giamatti. I was so far removed from baseball that I didn’t even see a single pitch of the post-Rose Reds’ 1990 World Series sweep. I didn’t think much about Rose again until the 1999 World Series, when he was allowed to appear on the field at Atlanta’s Turner Field — a post-banishment first — in recognition of his being selected to baseball’s All-Century team. In an interview with Rose that was aired live, NBC’s Jim Gray asked if he would use the occasion to apologize and admit he bet on baseball. “I’m not gonna admit something that didn’t happen,” said Rose. Some fans were outraged at Gray and NBC for what they viewed as an ambush (the nerve of a reporter practicing journalism!). Gray was pushed to apologize publicly before Game 3, but nonetheless, after the Yankees’ Chad Curtis hit a walk-off home run, he snubbed the reporter, telling him that the team was boycotting him. “As a team, we kind of decided because of what happened with Pete, we’re not going to talk out here on the field,” he said. Of course, we now know Rose was lying through his teeth, and that Curtis was no paragon of virtue, either.

Rose’s endless lies and his assumption of victimhood drained most of the empathy I had for him even before the more sordid details of his personal life came to light. Neither he nor his supporters helped his cause by coming out of the woodwork to clamor for his reinstatement every time a new scandal reared its head, such as the widespread abuse of performance-enhancing drugs, the electronically-aided stealing of signs, or the financial abuses of Shohei Ohtani’s interpreter, Ippei Mizuhara. Rose’s supporters would claim that what he did wasn’t akin to Barry Bonds‘ chemically-aided assault on home run records, or the Astros’ and Red Sox’s capture of world championships with the aid of skullduggery. What those supporters fail to see, or deliberately ignore, is the difference between Rose’s explicit and deliberate violation of Rule 21, which was officially enacted in 1927, and which has been posted in every clubhouse in professional baseball for nearly a century, and the stretching of boundaries beyond the league’s imagination and existing capacity for enforcement via paper bans. Which isn’t to excuse Bonds and company, or the Astros and Red Sox, but they didn’t break The One Rule that carries baseball’s equivalent of the death penalty.

(Here it’s worth noting that the end of Rose’s life does not mean the end of “a lifetime ban.” Functionally, that’s what Rose received, but officially he’s on the permanently ineligible list, alongside Shoeless Joe Jackson, his fellow Black Sox, and many others, both living and deceased.)

When Rose’s supporters cite MLB’s recent embrace of legalized gambling as a reason to exonerate their guy, they avoid acknowledging the opportunities for abuse that come with the wagering of money by on-field personnel who have the ability to profit from inside information about the participants, and the capacity to influence the outcome of games. Neither Dowd nor Outside the Lines produced evidence that Rose bet against his own team, whether as a player or a manager, but Dowd in 2002 claimed that he had been close to uncovering such evidence. He additionally noted that Rose did not bet on games started by two pitchers who had become weak links in the team’s rotation, namely Mario Soto (1986–87) and Bill Gullickson (1987). That pattern “sent a message through the gambling community that the Reds can’t win” on those days, said Dowd. While it’s fair to suggest that both Dowd and Giamatti did too much talking out of school by airing their opinions on Rose after he was banished, as the past decade has shown, there’s seemingly no end to the damning evidence that can be uncovered.

While I now see that my own anger and frustration with Rose parallels what some may feel towards Bonds, the Astros, and other transgressors, I still haven’t recovered my empathy for the man. That’s why this piece isn’t an epic of the scale I did for titans Henry Aaron and Willie Mays when they passed away. Those deep dives are done out of respect, reverence, and my own intellectual curiosity, none of which I have in the necessary supply to go blow by blow through the highs, lows, and details of Rose’s life.

I once said in a media spot — and have since repeated ad nauseam — that I could write a statement for Rose to read that would put him on the path to reinstatement in about five minutes. Something like this:

I’m Pete Rose and I have a gambling addiction. Through years of counseling, I have learned about the dangers of gambling and the harm that I have caused, and I now understand how badly I have erred in the eyes of Major League Baseball by violating the long-standing rules against players and managers gambling. If I am reinstated, I will spend the remainder of my years working to inform and educate the general public about the insidious and addictive nature of gambling and the problems it can cause, while also continuing to undergo counseling. I love the game of baseball and hope the commissioner sees fit to reinstate me.

Those words might have convinced a commissioner and the public, but in retrospect, I’m skeptical they would have done anything to change the addictive or compulsive behavior at the root of the problem. Rose did acknowledge his addiction in My Prison Without Bars, adding “but baseball had no fancy rehab for gamblers like they do for drug addicts.” It doesn’t appear as though he ever pursued treatment. Instead he tried to bend the world to his will, only to find that he was in no condition to do so. In Charlie Hustle and the Matter of Pete Rose, our last look at the man, Monroe gave the subject ample rope with which to hang himself. His crude jokes mostly fall flat, his excuses and defenses remain unconvincing, his lies and contradictions obvious. If Rose saw the finished product, maybe he finally reckoned with his decades of squandered opportunities, and the damage he caused.

But I doubt it.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

80 Comments
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dozingoffdadMember since 2021
1 year ago

Looking forward to the reasonable discussion in the comments over the subject of this article

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2024
1 year ago

I guess it was inevitable but there hasn’t been a single article on his death that didn’t include the obvious negatives within the headlines.

Maybe I’m tired, but I feel like we’re all beating a dead horse.

laughingstockMember since 2025
1 year ago

Rose is arguably more famous for his lifetime ban than his hit record, it’d be foolish not to have that be a central part of any career retrospective.

AlbyMember since 2025
1 year ago

Obituaries are for counting the number of strokes the dead horse was given. It’s a history of the player and person, it’s gonna include the warts, especially when they’re that large. Chuck Berry’s obits all mentioned his prison time.

Justin CMember since 2020
1 year ago

“Adolf Hitler, noted Viennese artist, died today.”

EonADSMember since 2024
1 year ago

One of the memories of Pete Rose I have that sticks out the most is a segment where he and Alex Rodriguez were on some kind of ESPN pregame thing. When Pete Rose was teasing A-Rod over his appearance in Home Depot commercials as a young player by asking him if he had a favorite tool, A-Rod replied irritably “Yeah, you.” It was meant to be a kind of funny moment, but it was also accurate in the extreme.

(sidenote, pot-kettle much, Alex?)

What Pete Rose accomplished as a baseball player can’t be ignored. But neither can his compulsive lying, nor the scandals he lied about.

I wouldn’t mind if he were eventually given enshrinement in the Hall of Fame, far into the future. But only if the Hall is transparent about his transgressions and how much of a disappointment he was as a human being. Because he absolutely was. As great as the heights he reached as a player were, as a human being, he was about as disingenuous and unlikeable as they come.

Last edited 1 year ago by EonADS
Nick SmithMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  EonADS

That anecdote makes me like A-Rod a bit more, actually.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  Nick Smith

Same here. I didn’t know that was possible, either.

Snoozing Tony La RussaMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  EonADS

>>>>I wouldn’t mind if he were eventually given enshrinement in the Hall of Fame, far into the future. But only if the Hall is transparent about his transgressions and how much of a disappointment he was as a human being.

This has been my position for 20+ years now. I always thought he belonged in the Hall of Fame. How can you have a Hall of Fame that excludes the dude with the most hits, the dude with the most Cy Youngs, and the dude with the most HR?! BUT – putting them in the Hall doesn’t mean celebrating them without the important context. They should all have plaques that upon reading make the enshrined squirm.

For myself, the reason I used to want his lifetime ban to continue was that he wanted back into MLB to make money. As Jay mentioned above: Pete was a gate attraction no matter how poorly he played. Back in the 1990s it wasn’t hard to imagine that without the ban Cinci would’ve brought him back as a manager simply to sell season tickets and that would have been a nightmare situation. An unrepentant compulsive gambler making MLB manager money and interacting with the soon-to-be young stars of the game. There is a lot that has gone sideways in our great game, but staying strong and keeping Pete Rose out of MLB is an exception. That was work well done by many over the generations.

EonADSMember since 2024
1 year ago

Very well said. Bonds is definitely more worthy of the Hall, because he was a HoF player before any suspected PED use, and he wasn’t a pederast like Rose and Clemens are heavily suspected of being. He’s a bit of a different case. Still a dickhead, but he’s not the level of… creature that the other two are.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I’m perfectly fine excluding people from the Hall if they undermine the competitive integrity of the game. I don’t think it’s that hard. There’s a lot of information in the Hall of Fame on historically important events that don’t involve enshrined players, there’s nothing stopping the Hall from having an exhibit on Pete Rose exactly like what you are saying.

hopbittersMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I feel like this is the best way to deal with situations like Rose, Bonds, Clemens, etc. They’re part of baseball history. They don’t need to be celebrated with fireworks and balloons, but the Hall should acknowledge that history and the context surrounding their omission from enshrinement.

deucebigalow4
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I disagree. Did 1951 Leo Durocher (Manager of the Year) and Willie Mays (RoY) undermine the game’s integrity? Perhaps a little bit or a lot of a bit depending on your personal bias, and therein lies the difficulty of gatekeeping ‘competitive integrity.’

My favorite part of this piece is how acceptance and remorse of past transgressions can go a long way towards healing public perception and could be the difference maker for enshrinement.

Would you have a footnote on Mays or Durocher’s plaques or potentially have footnotes on Mookie Betts or Jose Altuve’s plaques? Should facts determine the legend or does the legend determine the facts? In my opinion the answer is not so easy or cut and dry.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  deucebigalow4

Willie Mays worked at a casino..that’s a long way from betting on baseball game when you’re managing a team..including your own team’s games.

My understanding is Durocher was suspended for something (hanging with gamblers, betting on other sports,horse racing, etc) that Rose ALSO did for a long time & was warned about, but, never given any suspension over..& again, Durocher never got caught betting on baseball games.

That is the ONE RULE everyone has known about since 1919..Literally posted in every clubhouse for all of Pete Rose’s 25+ year career..I’m amazed people try to make excuses about it to create false moral equivalencies to make excuses for Rose.

Last edited 1 year ago by PC1970
deucebigalow4
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Gambling on baseball is part of the argument, but I was making a counter argument that policing ‘competitive integrity’ is not so simple.

It is a fact that MLB employees are allowed to gamble or work for a casino as long as they aren’t betting on baseball, using proxies, or illegal bookmakers.

It is also a fact that Durocher managed Mays on the 1951 Giants team that deployed a telescope in CF and relayed opposing teams signs to hitters using a buzzer in real time. The Giants went 50-12 after installing the system and won the World Series.

Despite it not being explicitly against the rules at the time, it is clearly an instance where competitive integrity was compromised, and the degree to which it was compromised is a matter of opinion.

hopbittersMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  deucebigalow4

A museum shouldn’t tell you what to think. It should give you the opportunity to decide for yourself, presenting known facts, neutrally, in context. People can decide for themselves if that ban diminishes Mays or Kuhn or both or nobody at all. This site has seen heated debate on Altuve’s involvement and culpability in the sign-stealing scheme. The scandal happened. The fallout happened. Where you fit Altuve into that and how you feel about it is a personal thing and isn’t necessarily right or wrong. I’d have no qualms with the HoF presenting a complete history of any relevant player or event.

I honestly have no idea what you’re referring to in regards to Betts.

DavidMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  hopbitters

Maybe they’re just confused by the last name Bet(t)s

No Pe
1 year ago
Reply to  hopbitters

Museums are expertise zones; they provide an expert perspective on the subject of the museum. The curation represents an expert point of view, an argument. It is never neutral – nor should it be. The reputation of a museum rises and falls on the quality of expertise displayed in the curation. There is a lot to criticize about gate-keeping in many museums around who gets to do the curating, whose expertise is valued, but that is not the same as being “neutral”…

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  No Pe

Have any of you been to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum? The plaques are a single room. The rest of the museum is a huge set of exhibits about the history of baseball. Pete Rose is all over the latter. The story of baseball includes Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame includes Pete Rose (and Bonds and Clemens and Rodriguez). It just doesn’t enshrine him (or them).

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Breadbaker

Bingo.

The Hall of Fame as a museum is amazing. I do wish it were more accessible instead of in Cooperstown; location is probably the worst part.

The Hall of Fame, meaning the set of player inducted for their careers, is tainted and loses a bit of sheen every year as we induct players who were 12th in JAWS while bypassing players among the 25 best all time or ones most famous in the last 30 years. On top of that inducting Selig and Larussa while “banning” steroid users.

deucebigalow4
1 year ago
Reply to  hopbitters

Museums like the HoF are highly curated. What you are asking for sounds more broad in scope like a library.

Perhaps this baseball library would have volumes on the complete history of the game with video archives, microfish, call transcripts, and logs about many fascinating eras of baseball.

It could lead to a fun Lifetime movie of the week based on a true story where an obsessed journo discovers an unspeakable truth about the sign stealing era.

MONTAGE (Noir Music): EXT Official Baseball Library (Cut to INT) Photos of Beltran, Cora, and 2017 and 2018 player photos are Xeroxed (Cut to) Journalist in a booth watching tape and taking notes as the 2018 WS trophy ceremony at Dodger Stadium (close on Mookie Betts holding a metal trophy)

Cut to: The journo pinning a board with newspaper articles. Close up on a hand (not wearing an Apple watch) drawing lines between the the articles and photos.

Fade to: the journalist pacing back and forth, staring at the board deep in thought. Brow furrowed, she tosses a tennis ball off the wall and catches it.

Dissolve to: Our brave journalist eating Chinese take out while highlighting a printout (2018 wRC+ 200 with RISP) – she looks up at the board and we see her eyes light up.

Reveal on wide shot: The board has a photo of Beltran and Cora pinned next to the Manfred sign stealing report. Our journo takes a red marker and connects a line from Cora to a photo of the 2018 Red Sox celebrating. (close up on Cora in photo being circled, close up on journalist eyes, extreme close up on Mookie Betts in the photo)

Journo (V. O. over her taking down the evidence and shredding it) I learned that there is good cheating and there is bad cheating, but in the end it is all part of the beautiful story that is baseball.

Cut to: Close on the journos hand, now wearing Apple watch, grabbing a baseball bat. She empties the trash can into a dumpster fire and taps it with the bat until all the shreds are emptied.

Smash cut to title card: Dodger Watkins (or how I learned to stop worrying about Mookie)

EonADSMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  EonADS

Re-reading this article, and it becomes apparent that Rose did, in fact, all but directly admit to assaulting a child. Perhaps multiple children.

So no to what I said above. Fuck him. Hope someone defiles his corpse by cutting off his genitals. Enjoy hell.

rickdugo3000
1 year ago

cannot stand the hand-wringing — we all know. now is not the time to prove how good of a person you are for wagging your finger at decades-old misdeeds

this is one of the best and most important baseball players of all time — the literal hit king

lastly, the subheading on the main page is weird, callous, and insensitive, whether written by chat gpt or not

tjcook87Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

The Hit King’s gambling problem and other off-field transgressions tarnish his considerable on-field accomplishments.”

Not sure how that is weird (all of it is accurate), callous (objectively speaking, that’s a relatively neutral observation), or insensitive (This piece is written for readers of Fangraphs, not specifically for, I dunno, his family? To whom should a Fangraphs blog post be more sensitive to?)

weekapaug09
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

Ok, and Lou Gehrig was an absolute machine until his production really fell off a cliff at age 36.

It’s almost like only looking at on-field performance is an inadequate way to completely encapsulate or eulogize someone.

Fear not, the literal home run king will receive the same treatment when his time comes. Bad people have accomplished things of note and it’s ok to acknowledge that when discussing them.

Oh, Beepy.Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

We don’t have to mourn objectively bad people, it’s not a rule – at least not in the way Rule 21 and Age of Consent are rules. We can be happy he’s dead.

EonADSMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Oh, Beepy.

Even if you’re not going to celebrate his passing, you don’t have to celebrate him, either. I certainly won’t. Still probably hurts his family, so that’s where my sympathies go.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

You know, an asshole who dies doesn’t become a not-an-asshole. They just become a dead asshole. How’s that for callous?

defiancyMember since 2024
1 year ago

I often ask myself when I think of Pete Rose, “Is Pete Rose a tragic figure?” I think so but entirely of his own making caused by years of stubbornness and the inability to introspectively examine his own behaviors and actions and how those might have hurt or affected others.

The most damning part of this piece and the one I was most unaware of, was the underage relationships he had with young girls. That is despicable behavior in any decade and one that has shaped my opinion that the HoF will be better off without Rose ever joining it.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  defiancy

Obviously his alleged statutory rapes are far worse transgressions in real life, but gambling on baseball literally threatens the very existence of the sport.

Baseball’s exclusion of Pete Rose from the Hall will do nothing to prevent rapists, in my opinion, but it might make players and other team employees think twice about gambling on baseball.

One other side point: if you’ve never been to the hall of fame, you may not know that Pete Rose is in it. The Hall is a museum and they have artifacts from his playing days, and I assume they have been and maybe currently are displayed. His ban only applies to the hall of honor. So if your beef is “how can you tell the story of baseball without Pete Rose, and McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens,” then fear not, for the Hall includes them and their stories, it just doesn’t bestow the honor of induction to them.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  defiancy

I think could be some tragedy in the classical sense here. He was maniacal about everything with baseball, wearing others’ derision as a badge of honor. And it very well might prevented him from recognizing exactly how he needed to make amends.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
rickdugo3000
1 year ago

if you want your favorite baseball players to be, to borrow a phrase from the article, “paragons of virtue”, you’re fucking stupid

if you want them to get hits, nobody did it better

EonADSMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

I say this with all the love and kindness in my heart.

Piss off.

Snoozing Tony La RussaMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

>> if you want them to get hits, nobody did it better

Uh, plenty did it better. Pete accumulated the most hits in history. That isn’t anywhere close to being the best hitter of all time. He was seldom the best hitter on his own team!

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago

Know what nobody did better? Collect outs. He had the outs records years before he got the hits record and no one has come close or probably ever will. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/outs_made_career.shtml

hopbittersMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

There’s nothing wrong with wanting them to be good people. It’s the expectation that gets people in trouble, coupled with various extremes of reaction when their illusions are shattered.

lacslyer
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

Thinking a player’s character doesn’t matter for the consideration of their induction is what’s truly fucking stupid here becasusr even you would have a line for it at some point.

The problem with that is that a line obviously has to be drawn somehwre, no? I’m sure there are plenty of awful people already in the Hall, but at what point does a person’s character matter to where their induction is excluded? Murder? Assault? Does it matter whether it was a felony or misdemeanor?

Surely undermining the integrity of your sport isn’t that absurd of a line for people.

Snoozing Tony La RussaMember since 2023
1 year ago

Really well written piece here.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

I read the Keith O’Brien book. One of the best books I’ve read in the last few years. & Rose comes across as a raging out-of-control with no moral compass asshole.

Now, that doesn’t preclude him from the HOF, but, he broke the 1 rule- YOU CAN’T BET ON BASEBALL..& even bet on his own team. I have a hard time feeling sorry for him, esp with the lying, etc. after he was caught. If he would have shown ANY interest in contrition, I think everyone would have been dying to let him back in..but, the same personality that made him great, made him too stubborn to ask for forgiveness.

As a player- I think he’s underrrated. He’s seen as sort of a compiler, but, his peak, say 1965-1976, is pretty darn good. Most teams would love to start the year with a guy that can play any of 5 positions, never get hurt, you know is going to get 200 hits, hit .300-.340, OBP between .380-410, hit 45 2B,10 HR & hustle his butt off every play. 12 straight years of 4+ rWAR, 7 of them over 5…& then he was a 3 rWAR player from 1977-1979 (age 38).

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
1 year ago

I don’t get the perceived importance of the HOF for players of Rose’s caliber.
The venn diagram of people interested in baseball history and people who care about the baseball HOF is a complete circle.

Anyone interested in baseball history will be aware of Pete Rose. And Bonds and Clemens.
If anything, their exclusion actually gives them more fame.

tigerfannky
1 year ago

The last sentence above has been my thought exactly for years.

When I was a kid in Detroit, there was an article every year in the local papers when the Hall voting was announced about how Enos Slaughter didn’t get in. Eventually he was elected but after that you never heard about him again. Which might be disappointing as he was a good but forgotten player.

As to whether they(Rose, Bonds, Clemens, et al.) have a plaque or not really isn’t the issue. No one wants to see them on the stage being honored and lauded for that they did on the field. That’s the real issue. Quietly hang something on the wall in Cooperstown that states everything about them and make the induction ceremony invitation only. Then they will rarely get talked about outside of the cities where they played, especially once they pass.

William BachMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  tigerfannky

This lends itself to my opinion, which is that the old-school role the HOF takes is dated.
Our society has moved on from the idea that athletes must carry some paragon of virtue over into their *private* lives and as that occurred (before or after “Ball Four”) the Hall should have morphed into more of a museum (which of course it is) than a paragon of baseball immortality and men who conducted themselves in that way in every aspect of their lives.
It killed itself two way. Gradually and then suddenly with the Baines-Maz-Slaughter inductions and then with the PED holier-than-thou gatekeeping.
Slaughter, Rose, Anson, La Russa, etc., could all be honored there with more honest, factual commemorations. Instead it tries to live on as though it’s a bastion of nobility. I’ve lost interest in the elections and enshrinements I once followed so closely. For me it’s jumped the shark.

(btw — great piece and even better kicker, Jay, ty)

AlbyMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  William Bach

News of its death has been greatly exaggerated.

adrock75Member since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

I was there in the Spring.

As much as I loved it as a kid for all of the glorious mementos, I was saddened at how boring and resolutely non-interactive it was.

My son is not the level of baseball fan I am, but there was very little to immerse him in the game, beyond reading cards behind glass.

The Hall is physically very small—they would do well to consider a second site in or near the Hall to bring in some 21st century-style exhibits that aren’t JUST dusty relics of the past.

Old Washington Senators FanMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  William Bach

When the Hall reduces or relaxes its induction standards, something special and sacred is sacrificed, never to return. Other areas all too obvious have suffered from this reduction/relaxation wave. And those have injured our society, our sports, our media, our courts, our politics, our ability to have civil discourse and our ability to get along with each other, especially those who disagree with us.

So many other institutions have crumbled and morphed into something uglier, meaner, pedestrian. I’d like to Hall of Fame to continue to be an oasis in this every widening desert.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
1 year ago

He was the ultimate paradigm of “How to Play the Right Way.”

His absence from the HOF teaches another lesson:
How you live life is more important.

matthayden4Member since 2024
1 year ago

Some of the aspects of Rose’s character – the insane work ethic, the dogged fixation with bending the world to his will, the abhorrent behaviour at times – remind me of Vince McMahon, whose documentary I just finished on Netflix. Two notorious, f-ed up dudes who certainly made their mark in their chosen field.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I was discussing Pete Rose with someone the other day (along with Ichiro, you could apply some of these things to him too). Having 4,256 hits is totally bonkers. Nobody is ever coming close to that. Hank Aaron is the standard for longevity–he has a shockingly high level of counting stats. Rose has something like 450 more hits than Hank Aaron.

Aside from being an elite hitter, the secret is longevity. The story about him getting the nickname from Mickey Mantle? Yeah, Mickey Mantle broke into the league in 1951. Pete Rose got 172 hits in 1982. That’s the same number as Ryne Sandberg had that year, and Sandberg played until 1997.

Another way to look at it: When Rose broke into the league, there were 20 MLB teams. When he exited baseball, there had been 26 teams…for ten years.

When Pete Rose started his MLB, Nikita Kruschev was head of the Soviet Union, and had just wrapped up the fallout from the Cuban Missile Crisis the previous year. When he exited baseball, Mikhail Gorbachev led the USSR, was just starting to use the term glasnost and was dealing with the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.

When Pete Rose entered MLB, Martin Luther King Jr was leading the Birmingham campaign to provoke mass arrests. King’s approval rating was evenly split between favorable and unfavorable, per Gallup’s opinion polls. In 1986–the year Pete Rose exited baseball–the US observed the first federal Martin Luther King Jr Day.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

These are great nuggets.

Thatguy47
1 year ago

Performance-wise he was basically a somewhat better version of Jeter who hung around longer to get the hit record

Rose age 24-38: 2375 games 10929 PAs 132 WRC+ 76.3 WAR
Jeter age 23-38: 2413 games 11190 PAs 123 WRC+ 71.5 WAR

He’d grade out even better if he didn’t stupidly steal 198 bases vs 149 CS’s and run negative baserunning value despite his Charlie Hustle rep. Wonder how much the CS’s dampen his baserunning value.

It’s a common problem for players until the last couple decades where they attempted steals all the time and were terrible at it.

tbrickey92
1 year ago

I’m a lifelong Reds fan that grew up on stories about Rose and the Big Red Machine from my dad and about Ted Kluszewski and going to games at Crosley Field from my grandpa. I love Pete the ballplayer and abhor everything that has come out about him as a person. I don’t think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because of how clear the line was that he crossed and then proceeded to lie about it until it was financially beneficial to tell the truth.

With all of this being said, I have really wondered why Dowd waited until a 2015 radio interview to say that Rose was regularly having 12-14 year old girls trafficked to him at spring training when Dowd said he had that information back in the 80s. Does that not reflect poorly on Dowd if he’s telling the truth? Why has no one ever asked that question?

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  tbrickey92

He was a lawyer for baseball. HIs job was investigating Rose on behalf of the Commissioner. He did what his client wanted. The additional allegation was unrelated to his role as a lawyer doing that investigation. Why he later even brought it up is the better question.

dezreMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Breadbaker

Factually reporting that someone abused minors should not be a question. It’s mandatory and should be reported immediately. Without question. Good lord.

shultz
1 year ago

Pete Rose was the original sin of cancel culture.

Once the chattering classes successfully cancelled Rose’s obvious HOF career, they started becoming more and more powerful. These days, the truth (apparently) isn’t the truth without the chattering classes’ permission . . .

It isn’t enough to be great. You must also be a nice guy according to the right people!

Why?

If the HOF doesn’t contain the best baseball players of all time, I don’t care what it is. And the HOF won’t be the place for the best baseball players who ever played the game so long as Pete Rose isn’t in it.

JCCfromDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

As the article noted, Rose is in the HOF, he just doesn’t have a plaque on the wall. ROSE DIDN’T JUST BET ON BASEBALL, HE BET ON GAMES IN WHICH HE PLAYED AND/OR MANAGED. That’s been an absolute red line for the sport for nearly a century, and no amount of snowflake blubbering will change that.

It’s not Cancel Culture unless it comes from the Cancel region of France. Think of this not so much as cancel culture but as sparkling consequences.

shultz
1 year ago
Reply to  JCCfromDC

The question is whether Pete Rose was one of the greatest baseball players to ever play the game, and the answer is yes. The question is whether the Hall of Fame contains the best baseball players to ever play the game, and the answer is no–because Pete Rose isn’t there.

Whether he was a nice guy, whether he did things he shouldn’t have, whether he was a jerk, and whether he was a liar–is all completely beside the point . . . if the point is whether Pete Rose was among the greatest ever and whether the HOF is supposed to contain the greatest players ever.

Whether people like him or the things he did is also beside that point. There’s something deeply wrong with the Hall and our society if we pretend people’s achievements didn’t happen–because we don’t like them or the other things they did.

JCCfromDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

I’m surprised that you hadn’t already boycotted the HOF over Shoeless Joe Jackson.

StuSheaMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

Nobody is saying that people are ignoring Rose’s achievements but you.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

Are you sure we’re pretending Pete Rose’s accomplishments didn’t happen? He still is the 1973 National League MVP — that didn’t disappear. He was even able to celebrate being named to the All-Century Team and celebrate the 1980 WS Championship on the field.

Now, the 2022 Aaron Judge HR chase was a lot closer to actually pretending accomplishments didn’t happen than anything going on with Rose…

AlbyMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

To be fair, I don’t think the Hall cares what you think.

shultz
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

You apparently misunderstood what I wrote.

The whole point is that my opinion doesn’t count–and neither does the HOF’s or anyone else’s when it conflicts with the truth.

Facts are things that are true regardless of how you, me, or the HOF feels about them, and the fact is that Pete Rose was among the greatest baseball players to have ever played the game.

And to whatever extent the HOF imagines that their opinions of Pete Rose are more important than the facts of Pete Rose’s accomplishments, that is the exact same extent to which the HOF is a joke.

The larger point is that this also true with everything else in life. Somehow, we’ve come to imagine that our feelings about the facts are more important than the facts themselves. Somehow, we’ve come to image that the truth can be cancelled if the truth hurts someone’s feelings. I’d love to put a stake through the heart of that cancel culture garbage.

No, my opinion doesn’t matter to the HOF. And the HOF’s opinion doesn’t matter to the facts or the truth.

Old Washington Senators FanMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

Fact: Pete Rose has the most hits in baseball history.
Fact: Pete Rose has several batting titles and an MVP.
Fact: Pete Rose won 3 world series titles and excelled in playoff action.
Fact: Pete Rose bet on baseball, including his own team when he was player/manager and manager.
Fact: When Pete Rose placed those bets, he violated the “Golden Rule” of baseball, the one on every clubhouse wall, the one every player knows will get them banished from the game, not just for live, forever.

Those are the facts. Because of the last two facts, Pete Rose cannot and should not be in the Hall of Fame.

Two things are true at the same time – 1. Rose was a great baseball player (but it is debatable is in one of the very greatest) 2. Rose ruined his chances to be in the Hall but betting on baseball, then lying about it, then showing zero, none, nada, remorse or guilt for having done so.

No one is being canceled. What is being done is called accountability.

CosmoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

People like YOU (Shultz) have lead to the moral decay of this country not “cancel culture”. You have no personal standards and you blame others for calling it out. Look inward, stop being obtuse.

shultz
1 year ago
Reply to  Cosmo

Facing the truth–even if it hurts people’s feelings–isn’t moral decay.

If anything is moral decay, it’s pretending the truth is something else if it makes someone angry or hurts their feelings.

Eric MartellMember since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

I’ll “cancel” anyone who rapes children (as he admitted doing). I’m okay with that. Jay does a good job in this article of discussing what Rose did on the field, and no one is arguing about his quality as a baseball player. On the field, he was an all-time great. Obviously. Off the field, he broke baseball’s most famous “absolutely do not break this” rule. And he (by his own admission) raped a child.

So yeah, bye Pete.

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  Eric Martell

Calling his gambling “off the field” is pretty technical. If a player killed a teammate or an opponent in the clubhouse, that would be equally “off the field.” Rose apparently called in his bets from the clubhouse or the manager’s office. And they had at least the potential impact on the game as it was played on the field, as Jay pretty carefully points out.

ThomasMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

First of all, I think you mean to call him the “Patron Saint of Cancel Culture”, not the original sin. But whatever.

Second – Did he continue to live his life, continue to make money at every conceivable opportunity, even given the chance to appear on MLB telecasts as an analyst? I’l answer this for you: Yes he did.

Therefore: he was not cancelled.

shultz
1 year ago
Reply to  Thomas

I didn’t mean to suggest that Pete Rose himself was the original sin of cancel culture. I meant to suggest that cancelling Pete Rose was the original sin of cancel culture. They had to willfully ignore the truth of Pete Rose’s accomplishments to cancel him.

Jimmy “the Greek” didn’t have undeniable stats and victories like Pete Rose. Jimmy “the Greek” isn’t MLB’s all time leader in hits. Jimmy “the Greek” didn’t win three batting titles. Jimmy “the Greek” wasn’t a 17-time all-star in five different positions. Jimmy “the Greek” wasn’t on the the team that won the World Series three times. And so, Jimmy “the Greek” being cancelled wasn’t like cancelling Pete Rose.

If Pete Rose can be cancelled by the HOF–despite his objective accomplishments–then anyone can be cancelled for any reason at all. That’s how our society’s decent into cancel culture began. The decent ends when we start standing up for the truth. The truth doesn’t care whether it hurts the feelings of people on social media or offends the pieties of journalists and the HOF. And those of us who prefer the truth should speak it plainly.

Pete Rose was among the greatest baseball players to have ever played the game. The HOF is a joke because he’s not there. And the journalists who insist Pete Rose shouldn’t be counted among the greatest baseball players–because they don’t like what he did and what he said–are not empowering themselves to police baseball or our culture.

They’re just beclowning themselves for ignoring the truth. The emperor has no clothes.

dezreMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

Cool narrative. No one is ignoring the truth except you. Rose is not a victim here. His behavior, which directly calls into question his on-field performance and character, shouldn’t be overlooked because you said so. You keep talking of “feelings” while ignoring actual facts. The HOF isn’t the end all arbiter of baseball history. You can find and revel in all things Rose elsewhere. He gambled on the game, lied about it and abused underage girls. What the f are you carrying on about?!?

MRDXolMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  shultz

You bet on baseball, you get banned. This has been inscribed on the holy tablets since Kennesaw Landis came down from his Mountain in 1919.

MattStats5Member since 2024
1 year ago

Jay, this article is priceless. I subscribe to FanGraphs because of articles like this. I’ve long advocated for continuing the ban…that Golden Rule is unyielding. But in Rose’s case, he had a path to reinstatement, and continued to give the back-handed middle finger. Thank you for this EXCELLENT piece.

ResumeManMember since 2016
1 year ago

That pattern “sent a message through the gambling community that the Reds can’t win” on those days, said Dowd.”

I have never understood why anyone would give the slightest shit what “message through the gambling community” anything Rose may have done could send. What, is Dowd worried about unfair advantages among illegal gamblers? He was investigating threats to the integrity of baseball, not the integrity of illegal betting lines.

Am I missing where this is even remotely relevant?

JCCfromDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  ResumeMan

Yes

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago

Mr. Jaffe, you are one hell of a writer.

Uncle SpikeMember since 2020
1 year ago

I think we’re focusing way too much on the gambling and not enough on the sexual misconduct. Even if he never bet on baseball, he probably still doesn’t belong in the Hall. He was 32 having a sexual relationship with a 14-15 year old. I guess it’s not that bad though because he thought she was 16. He was allegedly having 12-14 year old girls “run down to him”. Never mind a serious rape allegation as well. I realize the relationship with the 14-15 year old is the only one that’s been proven but his track record says the other allegations probably have considerable merit. I mean, look what these types of allegations did to the careers of Trevor Bauer and Wander Franco. Not defending these guys at all but if they’re never allowed to play again, how could you possibly justify putting him in the Hall?

Last edited 1 year ago by Uncle Spike
sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

To be clear, neither Trevor Bauer nor Wander Franco are permanently ineligible. A team could sign Bauer and there wouldn’t be much anyone could do about it, particularly from the league office, since he has functionally “served his time” in the league’s eyes. Assuming Franco is acquitted/serves his time then serves any and all suspensions the league hands out, same there.

Would any team do it? No. Not a chance in hell. Could they? Yes.

One could argue that the severity of their off-field behavior should make them ineligible. I’m not expressing an opinion on that right now. But the reason that Rose’s gambling is being focused on on a baseball site is the fact that that is the reason he is permanently ineligible.

Eric MartellMember since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

To clarify, a “sexual relationship with a 14-15 year-old girl” is “raped a 14-15 year old girl.” Pete Rose raped a child, by his own admission.

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago

Great story of a fine baseball player who was a horrible human being.

Oh, Beepy.Member since 2024
1 year ago

He got his wish and followed in the footsteps of his heroes – a bunch of awful humans who unfortunately were good at baseball so we have to keep them in a spreadsheet somewhere. At least he never got a plaque.

Max SeifertMember since 2021
1 year ago

Great piece, Jay. Well said, let’s forget about this contemptible man and hope his victims have found peace.