How in the World is Tampa Bay Doing It?

I write about the Rays a lot. I just wrote about them signing Amed Rosario, for example. Earlier this month, I wrote an article titled “The Rays Can’t Keep Getting Away With This, Can They?”, and in another, I wrote that I had recently daydreamed about one of my favorite Rays players during a root canal. I’m endlessly impressed by how this team does it. But this year? I cannot put into words how wild I find this version of its team construction. In other words, I’m writing about the Rays because they deserve it – or at least I think so.
Last year, they won 99 games. They had both one of the best offenses and one of the best pitching staffs in the American League. They did a little bit of everything, and nearly overtook the Orioles for first place in the AL as a result. But that was last year. Three of Tampa Bay’s top six players aren’t returning.
There’s Wander Franco, of course. He may never play another game of major league baseball. Tyler Glasnow, who looked downright indomitable in his first year back from Tommy John surgery, got traded to the Dodgers. Shane McClanahan is having Tommy John himself. Heck, Jeffrey Springs came into the season as one of the team’s best pitchers, and his own surgery will keep him out until after the All Star break this year.
That’s just the way life works for the Rays. It’s not always for the same reasons, but the team deals with extraordinary turnover. Blake Snell was a key cog in Tampa Bay’s rotation right until he wasn’t. Tommy Pham powered the offense until he became too expensive in arbitration. Austin Meadows, Chris Archer, Charlie Morton – I hardly have to go through all of this in detail. The Rays swap guys out left and right in pursuit of their yearly goal of winning the AL East.
Maybe that’s a bridge too far this season. After all, they’ve lost so much from last year’s group. But look at our projected standings, and we have them second in the AL East. Baseball Prospectus has them fourth, but it also has them winning more games than we project; that division is just incredibly competitive. Models and betting markets agree that the Rays are going to be a good team again this year, above .500 and competing for a playoff spot or divisional title.
In past years, that’s been because the Rays have reloaded with new players that are better than the market realizes. They signed Zach Eflin last offseason and he turned into one of their best pitchers. They traded for Isaac Paredes and Randy Arozarena a few years ago, and Pham before that. They call up prospects all over the place; Franco and McClanahan debuted as in-season reinforcements. The pipeline seemingly has no end.
This season feels like it should be the end of that run. In contrast to previous years, this winter’s acquisitions don’t exactly spark joy. Tampa Bay’s new everyday shortstop, José Caballero, played second base for the offensively challenged Mariners, and the Mariners traded him away in pursuit of more offense. Jonny DeLuca was a lightly regarded prospect in the Dodgers system before joining the Rays, who are going to make him part of their platoon machine. Ryan Pepiot – OK, I like Pepiot quite a bit. I think he might be their biggest acquisition of the offseason.
I had to go to a paragraph break here because the Rays have acquired so many players who don’t sound very exciting this offseason. They signed Phil Maton in free agency. They traded for Richie Palacios from the Cardinals. Rosario signed with Tampa Bay on a minuscule deal because no one would offer him more.
This just doesn’t sound like it should be enough. Most of these players came over in exchange for a pittance, either financially or in trade return. The Rays have a ton of plate appearances to replace, and they’re doing it with a bunch of players who no one else was interested in. It feels like they’re heading for a fall.
Only, of course, that probably won’t happen. They’re projected to be an excellent team yet again. And be honest: You’d take the over on a lot of the individual player projections, wouldn’t you? The Rays do a good job of finding players with skills that the rest of the market isn’t evaluating correctly. Their work with pitchers is a great example. Eflin wasn’t considered the best pitcher on the market by a long shot last winter, which is why he signed a three-year, $40 million deal. It’s why the Rays were able to sign him in the first place.
Go down the line, and you’ll see more examples like that. Springs came over in a minor deal with the Red Sox, then promptly turned into an ace. Zack Littell was an acceptable reliever who bounced around the league; we now list him as Tampa Bay’s no. 3 starter after a shockingly effective promotion to the rotation in 2023. An endless string of relievers unlock better levels of performance with the Rays; Chris Devenski and Pete Fairbanks are two recent examples of it, and I’m excited to see what Maton and Tyler Alexander can do this year.
Again, we all kind of know this by now. The Rays get a little bit extra out of everyone because their player development operation is excellent. They also get a little bit extra out of everyone because they understand how to put players in the best position to succeed. Think Paredes with the short porch in left, or their seemingly boundless mix of platoon options (traditional lefty/righty, pitch shape, and so on). They unlock defensive versatility that no one predicted, or reduce defensive versatility in favor of improved performance for guys who were perhaps stretched too thin.
Their other trick, the one that I think gets talked about less, is their ability to adapt to what the market is giving them. They do their homework on the free agents who might be available to them and sign not only the ones who are best poised to improve with them, but also the ones who are most undervalued by the market before any improvement. When they make trades, sure, they’re looking for guys who can improve in their system, but they also find guys who would be bargains even without improvement.
Rosario is a great example of that. Even if you value the first win above replacement at a much lower rate than the others, as teams increasingly choose to do (as they should, in my opinion), his contract still comes in below that level. Eflin likely got less money because he’d alternated between starting and relieving the previous year. Even if Paredes only played to the form his that minor league numbers implied, he looked like a valuable regular; the Tigers traded him for less than that due to a combination of outfield need and prospect fatigue. Yandy Díaz was blocked in Cleveland, which is why he was available in a three-way trade. Arozarena was available because the Cardinals had an outfielder crunch on their 40-man roster.
This sounds pretty simple when you explain it that way. The Rays keep their heads level when everyone else is losing theirs. But that’s hard! There are always reasons to diverge from a value-maximizing approach to team building. The exigencies of the current day matter. Recency bias matters. Keeping fans happy matters. Keeping the clubhouse happy matters. The Rays are just a lot better than the rest of baseball at balancing all these factors while still generally finding players who the rest of the league simply doesn’t value highly enough.
Caballero and Palacios, in particular, are great examples of just this type of trade. I know that Caballero was on the outs with the Mariners, who were looking to upgrade their offense, but let me ask you this: Why? He was a league average hitter with phenomenal defense in 2023, accumulating 2.2 WAR in only 280 plate appearances. His minor league career was repeatedly interrupted by injury. He’ll never hit for a ton of power, but he’s run gaudy on-base percentages at every level and continued that in the majors last year. ZiPS projects him to be worth 1.7 WAR in 295 plate appearances. That’s a borderline All Star player in a full time role.
Now, will that production look kind of weird? Absolutely. It’s all walks, singles, and defense, a kind of modern-day Luis Castillo, the Marlins second baseman. The Mariners were all about getting more offense via power, and they’ll surely be happy with Luke Raley. But the Rays are perfectly content to get their production in weird ways; their bopping corner infield duo of Paredes and Díaz is a great example. And if you’re looking at it that way, Caballero is exactly what they need.
Palacios isn’t quite so obvious of a win, but he also fills a role the team will surely need this year. He can play both corner outfield spots, and even center in a pinch. He has excellent pitch recognition. If the Rays decide to trade Arozarena, Palacios can be part of a platoon that replaces him. If they decide to trade Josh Lowe, Palacios can step right in. The Cardinals had too many outfielders, so while Palacios’ panning out last year was great for them, they really didn’t have a spot. All it cost Tampa Bay to acquire a competent fourth outfielder with a half-decade of team control was one year of Andrew Kittredge. Deals like this are how the machine recharges itself.
Maybe this sounds like I’m heaping endless amounts of praise on the Rays. Honestly, that’s basically what it is! But someone should say it. The Rays always seem to rebuild themselves, but in using small moves to accumulate something huge, they are making a bolder bet than they have in previous years — and it looks like things are going to work out fine for them again. I just had to point that out, even if it brings my count of Rays articles to a ridiculous tally.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
There are a lot of reasons why someone might say the Rays are good, year in and year out, but this year I think it is probably straightforward: They are going to have four, maybe five dangerous hitters in the lineup (depending on what you think of Josh Lowe) and only one or two black holes (catcher definitely, maybe CF if you’re skeptical of Siri continuing to hit like I am). Add in some platoon maximization and I think they’ll score a lot of runs.
I have been skeptical of the Rays’ consistent success for a while because I have long thought that the Rays’ pitching usage is a house of cards that will collapse in the worst way possible. They tend to target guys with injury histories and it feels like they burn through relievers dangerously fast every year. But this group of position players is very good. Good enough that I think they will still be right in the hunt for the division all year, even if they’re running out Shawn Armstrong type guys for the entire second half.
I remember an article years ago about the number of black holes in a lineup. Basically replacement level or worse. And the Rays were one of the few, or only teams with zero. A lot of teams, at least when that article was written, didn’t show the understanding of how important it is to limit how many ineffective players you have in the lineup.
The Dodgers were probably the only other team that limited those weak spots as well. But the Rays depth is so great.
I’m sure every team would like to have fewer black holes in their lineup, but there aren’t enough to go around for everyone. They didn’t have some fundamental understanding of lineup construction that other teams don’t have. There just aren’t enough decent players.
There absolutely is, it just involves building more platoons or not just spending on big name players and ignoring the other half of your roster. And for the most part these players aren’t so costly to acquire or pay.
There most certainly are. The Rays spendthrift ways, however, do inoculate them somewhat against the sunk-cost fallacy issues that plague so many other teams. They don’t get stuck playing guys because of their big contracts, because they don’t tend to have many big contracts in the first place
There’s also no “We spent all of our payroll buy have to find a couple of utility guys” problem in Tampa.
And, frankly, they’re just better than most at identifying useful talent
I fall on the side of players talent more than utilization. Yes, the Rays maximize platoon advantages in a way that teams that sign vets cannot do, but most of the AAAA guys they bring up are just better than most other teams have.
For example, Phils are stuck with Castellanos, a spot the Rays would never be in. But, if for some reason they had an open spot in RF, they don’t have anyone who could step in and give a 2 WAR season. The Rays scouting just turns up more of these guys.
The Rays seem to be able to identify those players sooner, or are able to coach them up. Maybe it’s a combination of that sentence. They are able to identify the players their system can coach up. Harold Ramirez went from a 90 wRC+ prior to the Rays to a 120 player with them.
I don’t remember this article but my take on this is slightly different than this description. The idea is that the Rays have an army of guys who are best platooned but aren’t “Dodgers-era-Joc Pederson-level bad” against same-handed pitching. It’s a compromise, because it builds pretty good but not elite depth when people are hurt but also allows for almost everyone to have a non-redundant role when everyone is healthy.
But right now the Rays only have to do that for about half their lineup, because they’ve got a bunch of excellent everyday bats. So they’ve got the interesting platoon maximization – depth compromise for part of the lineup and a really good group of hitters for the other part. They’re going to score a lot of runs.
Was that article about the 2015 Astros?
I’m a big Caballero guy, but I do wonder if he risks getting the bat knocked out of his hands in an everyday role…especially looking at that 73 wRC+ against RHP.
I’m guessing they hope he can basically be Maikel Garcia was last year: below average hitter who makes it to average overall through base running and defense.
Yeah – I like Caballero a lot, but I don’t think the walks are sustainable without more punch.
I’d expect the wRC+ to be closer to 85-90 in a full-time role.
Sure, Caballero’s bat is light, still, last season’s .305 wOBA playing in a pitchers park was in line with his Statcast profile, so it’s not like he punched above his weight. But the rest of his game is, as Ben notes, pretty swell, and, importantly to the Rays, one presumes, he’s currently playing for peanuts and under team control for six seasons. He’s also a gamesman good at getting the other guys’ goats, making him a team and fan favorite. It will not surpise me if, over the next few seasons, Caballero proves the most valuable of all the players Dipoto shuffled in and out of Seatlle this of-season.
Like I said – my main concern is whether the walks will drop off once there’s a “book” on him, so to speak.
There’s a catchy but kind of weird song called “Dancehall Caballeros” that came out…twenty years ago? And every time I see his name that’s the first thing that pops into my head. He should use it as his walkup music.
Amazing. Just listened to it for first time. haha! Thanks
That band was super weird, a bunch of Germans making dancehall / reggae music. And then they had a song with Cee Lo! And they would sing in German and English within the same song! The whole thing is jarring as hell, it’s like they decided to maximize jamming as many culturally dissonant things into the same song as they could. But they were good enough that it worked, and if you find them performing live you’re like “wow, it’s not just studio trickery.”
Isn’t there a tension between “The projection systems think the Rays will be good again” and “The Rays spot value no one else can, and help players become better than anyone thought they could become”? The projection systems don’t give players’ projections a bump just because those players were acquired by the Rays. And the Rays don’t consistently outperform their projections (do they?)
I wouldn’t say they consistently outperform the ZiPS projected standings, since those properly account for depth. But the default ones on the site? Absolutely, because pretty much all good teams beat their projections and all bad teams go under their projections, since the standard FG projections basically project every team to be within 10 games of each other.
“And the Rays don’t consistently outperform their projections (do they?)”
Over the seven full seasons in the FG playoff odds database they have outperformed their projected win totals by 43 wins, 4th most in MLB behind the Brewers (+58), Dodgers (+50) and Atlanta (+49).
If we narrow it to the last five full seasons, where TB has beat the projections every year (four by double digits), they are +57 wins…
16: 81 (68) -13
17: 81 (80) -1
18: 76 (90) +14
19: 84 (96) +12
21: 83 (100) +17
22: 85 (86) +1
23: 86 (99) +13
Thanks, I stand corrected. When I said “projections”, I was thinking specifically of ZIPS and PECOTA. I should’ve said so rather than just saying “projections”. Because, yes, some projection systems do a bad job accounting for depth, and the Rays do seem to consistently outperform those projection systems.
The projections are off I think in part to there being so much constant turnover compared to the other great teams during this time.
Since 2018 only two position players have played at least 2 seasons over 3 fWAR (yandy and arozarena) with the team.
The other elite teams since 2018 have much more consistency on their everyday players.
Astros(Bregman, Altuve, Correa, Springer, Alvarez, Tucker)
Dodgers (Seager, Smith, Freeman, Betts, Muncy, Turner, Bellinger)
Braves (freeman, Olson, Swanson, Harris, Riley, Acuna, Albies)
Eh. The Rays run has been quite exaggerated. They won 86 games in 2022 and from 2014-2017 they didn’t win more than 80 games. It’s essentially been 5-6 years of competitiveness which is essentially a competitive window. And of course, they’re missing a championship. I don’t think there’s a team that’s more celebrated for never winning a championship. A championship isn’t the only barometer of success but imagine how much of a failure the Dodgers or Astros would be seen as without winning a championship.
I also think a big part of the reason the Rays are good *is* their low payroll. They have zero expectations. If they win, they’re celebrated. If they lose, well, look at the payroll! Also they trade every player before they get expensive for more prospects and cheap players. Fans think free agency is a major help, but in reality you’re mostly paying over the hill players into their decline phase. Spending money doesn’t equal winning (as shown by the Angels, Red Sox, etc), but it does help. Also when you spend money it creates roster inflexibility and causes you to lose draft picks and and IFA money. And when you let players walk you get additional draft picks.
What the Rays are doing is impressive, yes, but the collective baseball world celebrates the Rays far too much since their owner refuses to put anything into the team.
But the Rays are good. They have players buy in and really optimize everything. They get the most out of their bit players and put their players in positions to succeed.
They’ve had 3 losing seasons since 2007, make the playoffs almost every year, and have been to two World Series since then. That’s a successful 17-year run for every team, including the Yankees and Dodgers.
Me, about 10 minutes ago:
“But the Rays are good. They have players buy in and really optimize everything. They get the most out of their bit players and put their players in positions to succeed.”
They may not have a WS ring, a thing only poor and unbusiness people care about anymore, but in that span likely picked up maybe even several far more important $/WAR titles.
“Fans think free agency is a major help, but in reality you’re mostly paying over the hill players into their decline phase. Spending money doesn’t equal winning (as shown by the Angels, Red Sox, etc), but it does help.”
So does it help or not? If we go back and look at those great 2011-2013 rays teams, if they could have spent money on their best players, they would have been a great team in 2014-2016.
Zobrist left and had 3 very good with the cubs including being a huge part of their world series team.
James shields left and was very good with the royals and a huge part of their multi world series run.
David price left and was very good with boston and detroit for the next 3-4 seasons as well.
I will give you the benefit if they resigned bj upton that would have been a disaster.
Its never perfect, but its hard to see how if the rays had a larger budget they wouldnt expand their competitive windows. This current team looks like it might be at the end of a competitive window (the pitching is not looking good after Eflin who odds are definitely just had his best season). I feel like they need a chris archer type trade to reboost the team for the next 3-4 seasons especially after losing franco, glasnow, and mcClanahan.
So we’re just going to be dense on purpose?
David Price’s contract almost instantly became an albatross after signing with the Red Sox. He was good for one year, then became injured and an albatross.
Carl Crawford: instant albatross. Like one of the worst contracts of all time.
James Shields: good for two years, then albatross.
BJ Upton: Albatross.
Ben Zobrist was really the only one that worked out.
So if they signed all these guys, they would’ve had an old, expensive, unproductive roster.
Free Agency *can* be great, but it’s not a panacea. Quoting myself here:
“Fans think free agency is a major help, but in reality you’re mostly paying over the hill players into their decline phase. Spending money doesn’t equal winning (as shown by the Angels, Red Sox, etc), but it does help.”
It’s not a *major* help, unless you do it properly. It’s helpful to spend money, like I said above, but if you spend it improperly it can be crippling.
Signing Corey Seager and Marcus Semien is great! Signing Anthony Rendon and Kris Bryant.. not so great!
Rays fans downvoting anything that is a mild criticism is hilarious. Literal poverty franchise.
Imagine being on fangraphs dot com and acting even slightly surprised by the reactions you get when you criticize the Rays. You ought to know by now that this site literally worships the Tampa Bay franchise because they do moneyball the best.
both of y’all need to go touch grass
Nice how you paint everyone here with such a broad brush.
I am not a Rays fan by any stretch, and am not a regular on this site, but I downvoted you because a lot of what you said was absolutely ridiculous, much of which was already responded to, although I don’t necessarily agree with all the responses either.
Yes, clearly, spending on free agents CAN help if you do it right, but it seems the vast majority of those signings are not done “right” as far as the bang for the buck is concerned. I think it took some time for the market to adjust to the post-steroid era, where signing guys to lucrative long-term contracts after, say, age 32 or 33 isn’t going to turn out as well as it did in the early 2000s. But, of course, a lot of older players are still being signed to those lucrative long term deals, and in many cases (I didn’t say most or all cases), it’s just hindsight that ends up distinguishing the better contracts from the worse ones.
The Dodgers definitely have an advantage that they do a lot of the things the Rays do, AND spend on free-agency and re-signings. What if you added Freeman and Betts to the Rays’ roster?
But your characterization about what the Rays have done, and the whole thing about the expectations, etc. was utter nonsense that would not take a Rays fan to downvote.
McClanahan’s already on TJ2? Yeesh. I’d definitely say one of the keys to any success from the 2010s on has much to do with low commits to pre-injured pitching. Other than Blake Snell and Morton there hasn’t been a Rays pitcher I even have some interest in acquiring for a loooong time
I definitely do have at least some appreciation for any team that saw what I saw in Isaac Paredes. That’s good just prospecting fundamentals and instincts obvy
The Rays absolutely commit to pre-injured pitching. Eflin is the most extreme example of this, and he went out and rewarded them.
Another fun detail: The Rays drafted Rasmussen, who had already had one TJ surgery. The physical showed he would need another one, so they refused to sign him. He went back to Oregon, had another TJ surgery, and got drafted by the Brewers. The Brewers immediately moved him to relief (partly because of health, partly because of command problems), fast-tracked him to the majors, and the Rays promptly traded for him and moved him back to the rotation. He lasted something like half a season in that role before he blew out his arm again and needed an internal brace procedure.
Why do they do this? I think it’s pretty simple, they can’t afford good pitching without major injury risks, so they just load up on enough of these guys who are good as long as they are healthy and hope it’s enough. If that was supposed to be the strength of the team, yes, I’d be worried too.
It’s more than that, it’s a conscious disregard for pitcher health. And the pitchers of course are down for it — if you tell me that throwing my slider twice as much will make me an all-star level starter instead of a journeyman reliever I’ll do it, even if it’s entirely foreseeable that I’ll need TJ within months.
It’s gross but it works.
This is something I am convinced about–that many of these “pitching labs” that teams run that increase the nastiness of everyone’s “stuff” is also leading to guys blowing out their arms. When a guy’s stuff suddenly takes as stuff forward I’m just counting down the clock until they break in a serious way. It’s made me very skeptical of a lot of these pop-up pitching prospects.
The day you realize every pitcher can get hurt and that the only reason the best are the best is because of how hard they push themselves past normal mortal limits for as long as they can get away with it is a lot like when you find out that wrestling is fake. It’s the worst part about watching baseball these days. Expecting pitchers to get hurt and often upon arriving at the most dominant version of themselves.
FWIW, according to Jeff Passan’s book on arm injuries there is no evidence for this theory (or perhaps these theories — it sounds to me like everyone here has a slightly different variable they think is correlated to injury risk, whether it’s pitch-type usage, increased effort, or modified mechanics).
I have no personal opinion on the matter beyond “pitching injuries are almost impossible to predict,” which in itself might also account for the Rays’ pattern, if they think the market overrates the risk of second injuries in pitchers who’ve already suffered their first. Maybe it’s like buying your used cars cheaper because they’ve already been in a fender-bender.
This is definitely still one of the great mysteries. It’s all still firmly in the theory side.
This may as well be a reply to everyone who commented here. I agree that there really hasn’t been a “smoking gun” that shows that throwing a certain type of pitch, or throwing more than a certain number of innings, etc. is going to significantly increase your risk factor of injury.
Much of the injuries we see are ligament related, whether it’s baseball pitchers tearing ligaments, or football players tearing ACLs, etc. and the thing is, there’s really not a lot that can be done to make ligaments stronger and/or more flexible to withstand the physical demands put on them by the rest of the body. Athletes can bulk up their muscles, but the ligaments are the weakest link, and maybe all that extra bulk is putting the excess strain on ligaments now, because I don’t remember hearing about the sheer number of ligament injuries that we have now, say 30-40 years ago.
What causes injury to pitchers is pitching. We know this pretty well. The more they do it, the more likely they are to succumb to injury. Some guys are unicorns, and some I’d like to meet their pharmacologist, but inevitably there is no superman. It’s why I’m excited that more teams are taking on a five-day rest period when possible. I have no idea if it will help, but it’s a mostly unexplored avenue, and at the least we’ll have some data to unpack later on.
Some of it is also just guys throw at max velocity on every pitch, either of their own volition or on the urging of teams.
Then there are teams like the Angels who don’t have any lab for pitching or hitting, and their players constantly drop like flies.
Good article on the pitcher perspective on this from Defector this weekend: https://defector.com/a-pitchers-view-on-the-tommy-john-epidemic (paywall, but worth it)
Everyone likes to shit on the Rays saying they do this to pitchers, takes the agency away from the pitchers who willingly throw harder and nastier because that’s what they’ve trained their whole life to do: be the best, most effective version of themselves. There is no form of pitching that is good for your ligaments.
The team that stands out to me the most on this front is actually the Dodgers. They have this whole army of guys whose stuff suddenly makes a leap forward and then they’re doing the TJ. The Rays and Yankees also seem to do this. I’m sure most teams do this to some extent, though.
I’m a little confused who the army of guys on the Dodgers are who needed TJ. I know of Dustin May but that’s all I can think of. Buehler was drafted needing TJ so his arm troubles can’t be blamed on some pitching lab. Who else is in the army?
Repetitive. Strain. Injuries.
They happen, sooner or later, to everybody who lives long enough.
Carpal tunnel. Trick knees. The “old lumbago”. Even walking.
Beats the alternative. 😎
Athletes get it faster than non-athletes but sooner or later repetitions catch up to all humans.
I read the article, and it is indeed quite insightful (though the high scouting grades that the talented “Mr. Wholestaff” cited regarding Greg Maddux’s fastball were not because of Maddux’s velocity, which was unremarkable. But that’s neither here nor there). But my biggest takeaway was the quality of the writing, which genuinely surprised me, and I’m left to wonder who this mystery pitcher-cum-scribe is. Thanks for sharing!
My guess, because of all the social references and his own personal experience, is Thor (with the help of an editor, of course)
I’m not pleased by the Rays’ pitching morgue either, but I’ve never seen an analysis of whether they simply go for pitchers with injury risk or actively do something dangerous on the development side that jeopardizes pitcher health.
I know we observe both, but pitcher health seems to be really really fickle, and I think it’s difficult to untangle the latter from the former.
Fwiw, I do not find it a coincidence that the Dodgers, the “other” top tier pitching lab, also have an unending stream of pitcher injuries.
One important thing to note on pitcher injuries is you only remember it if the pitcher was good and you knew him in the first place. So maybe you can name a bunch of tommy johns for Rays guys but is it truly more than the Rockies? Articles don’t get written about bad players breaking.
I would say the Mariners are pretty darn good at developing pitching, on par with both those orgs, and don’t have significant pitching injury issues… Yet. Fingers crossed. Knocking on wood. Praying to every deity in existence etc etc.
I’m still confused on how the Dodgers are considered to have an “unending stream” of pitcher injuries. How are they any more than any other team? This is a pretty generalized statement that needs some specific examples to back it up because I don’t see how it is remotely true.
This isn’t an itemized list so not particularly helpful to the pitching question. But for interest sake, below link is a list of incidents and total days by team for 2023 injuries:
https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2729936
Interestingly, the Dodgers did actually lead MLB with >2400 days…more than TRIPLE of the Guardians who had the fewest days on IL.
Rays were 19th in days according to this list
Unfortunately not isolated to pitching but interesting to see the huge polarity in injury “luck”.
unfortunately this list is not relevant to this discussion. the claim is that a Dodgers pitching lab is breaking pitchers. the only injury days that could be maybe relevant to this discussion in the number you list above is Dustin May. The rest of those injuries are people like Kershaw, Hudson’s knee, feyereisen who was signed injured, pepiot’s oblique, syndergaard’s injury for being terrible, and a whole host of other unrelated injuries.
the Dodgers are definitely liberal with their use of the IL and also invest in previously injured pitchers which muddies the water when trying to use IL days as a way to compare.
Here is the list of injured players. go in and name one that could’ve been broken by a Dodgers pitching lab.
https://www.truebluela.com/2023/3/30/23630044/los-angeles-dodgers-injured-list-tracker-2023
It’s the same as that piece about Marlon Byrd-type players who use PEDS, and how cheating is worth the risk because you might get to keep playing in MLB/making millions of dollars. What’s the downside? You get banned and can’t play anymore? That was the risk beforehand anyway.
These rando relievers might blow out their arm, but the alternative is being a never-was. And maybe you can become a Robert Stephenson type and make generational money.
It is 1000% worth it for the pitchers. I’m sure there are dudes who would tell you it’s worth it to even go from a 5.00 era to a 2.50 era for even half a season, irrespective of money
One reason they have been successful, and the main reason they develop players so well, is because they invest money in the development process. That costs a lot less than investing in the MLB roster. For less than the price of a journeyman utility infielder, any team can make sure all their minor leaguers have good housing, nutrition, support, analysis, and coaching. So they can focus on getting better at baseball instead of the mundane things of everyday life. That gives them a better chance of making players better. Then they go and accumulate as many lottery tickets as possible so they don’t need all of them to hit. Too many teams cheap out on that stuff, then cry poor and claim they can’t afford the journeyman utility infielder, much less the 29 year old FA Shortstop.
It’s not just at the minor league level that they’re good at.
At the bigs they “somehow” manage to help “marginal” players become the best version of themselves.
It’s been impressive that the Rays have been perennial contenders, but I also wouldn’t mind seeing them try a little harder in getting a star player (most likely via trade). Stars are what get you further in the playoffs.
How’s that working for the Dodgers? (Outside of the bubble year)
The playoffs are very much a crapshoot, even though fans don’t want to admit it.
We all know the signing of star players works damn well for the Angels.
Randy Arozarena is literally right there!
What this article describes is that the Rays understand how prices work better than anyone else does. If a team has more outfielders than it can use, then Tampa Bay can acquire one for less than he otherwise would be worth (surpluses reduce prices). If the league values a particular type of production less than it merits, then the Rays can grab some output on the cheap, since prices are based on what those competing for a resource are willing to pay for it.
When he was with Cleveland, Palacios proved to be an oddly good PH.
Don’t sleep on him, the Rays “magic” might make something of him.
I was thinking the same. He can make quality contact to every part of the field. He doesn’t have a lot of power, but he could become something interesting if he can turn some of his grounders into line drives, even soft ones. A poor man’s Luis Arraez with better defense seems plausible to me.
He hasn’t *shown* power but if you look at his minor league numbers he has on occassion shown iso’s around 200. He’s not exactly tiny.
Most likely he’s been trading power for contact.
With enough ABs he might learn when to go for contact and when to let-er rip. Situational hitting.
I don’t think he’ll be able to run iso’s near that in MLB. A lot of minor league numbers are inflated, because the run environment is just more offense-friendly. And it’s also babip-inflated. Two of those Iso-events have come in very small sample sizes as well (80-ish PA), which looks more like noise to me.
Also, he’s very average in terms of size. 5’10”, 180 lbs is pretty much average American male. His frame is also quite lanky. I don’t think the build is necessarily there. It’s not like he’s Jose Ramirez, who is built like a brick house. Or Lindor, who was wiry muscle from the word go.
But situational hitting? Being able to adjust with great bat control and get on base frequently? That can still be super valuable.
I would argue that this type of roster construction(no black holes) is great over 162, but fails in the end of season tournament. For the postseason, you need 3 “ace” starters, 3 “ace” relievers, and 3 or so star power hitters. That’s why the Rays, Twins, Brewers, etc. always fall short.
You don’t have to look further back than the most recent WS champions to see that this rule of thumb isn’t really true. They had one ace starter if you’re being charitable to Eovaldi, and 0 ace relievers.
The good #2 starter they picked up at the deadline was pretty damn important.
Doesnt this exactly describe the Brewers of the last few years?
On the pitching side, absolutely. The bats…have not been so good.
They had the unfortunate luck that their batting and pitching fortunes seem to alternate with each other instead of coinciding.
2023: 92 wRC+ (t22nd), 116 ERA+ (1st)
2022: 103 wRC+ (11th), 106 ERA+ (10th)
2021: 92 wRC+ (23rd), 119 ERA+ (3rd)
2020: 90 wRC+ (t23rd), 110 ERA+(t9th)
2019: 97 wRC+ (t13th), 102 WRA+ (t15th)
2018: 100 wRC+ (t9th), 110 ERA+(t9th)
It’s easy to downvote this, but it’s harder to prove that teams that win in the regular season due to roster optimisation, depth etc are equally successful in the playoffs.
I more or less agree with you. Having a bunch of guys like this works great over the long haul but when you’re facing the Braves or the Phillies in a 5 or 7 game series you don’t get many breaks. The pitchers are all dominant and the lineups are deep; playing the advantages with role players just doesn’t go as far when you’re facing down Zack Wheeler or Max Fried or the other guys who are almost as good as them. The “stuff” in the playoffs is so much better, the whole thing is like an arms race.
Almost nobody has 3 ace starters. For the playoffs, you generally want at least 3 good starters, at least one of them being an ace, and then a 4th starter who has a decent chance of getting you through 5 innings with your team still in the game.
The Phillies have aces and superstars all over their roster but they haven’t won a ring with them. The Dodgers have been loaded for over a decade and only have that 2020 ring to claim so far. Playoff baseball is just weird because all the teams in it are various levels of awesome and then they play best-of series against other awesome teams. At that point it’s just who gets lucky for the 11 or so games they need to win.
Their biggest strength is the expectations of their fans. The front office doesn’t care about pleasing fans because they can make a profit before a single butt sits in the seats. So they can move on from fan favorites, or build 88 win teams and not spend that extra top dollar to get them to 95 wins. Boston is trying to do the same thing, but with Brady no longer in town we’ll have to wait and see how much longer the fanbase will be distracted from the current embarrassment of a ownership group. There’s no reason Dombrowski couldn’t be doing the same thing in Boston that is accomplishing in Phillie, except for the owners and the fans.
I disagree.
I think the Rays approach (even if they played in a nice stadium in a nice market) would underperform in butts-in-seats per win, just based on fans liking getting attached to players.
A good test might be coming up if the Rays get a real baseball park to play in, whether in Florida or Nashville.
St. Pete is building another stadium for them downtown. It was announced a while ago.
Not fully approved, last I heard…
Even a new stadium (even one in Tampa) won’t greatly increase attendance for long as long as they stay in Florida. The Marlins have already proven this. The Rays would probably do better than the Marlins, since they do put a winning product on the field most of the time, but Florida is just not a good market for summer sports.
Hard to be certain of that.
The Marlins have rarely fielded a good enough team consistently enough to convince the fans to show up. The Huizenga legacy is strong in that one. Miami is the gateway to the (baseball crazy) caribbean and a tourist destination but they don’t capitalize on either the way the Dodgers reach out to Japan and Mexico or the A’s are betting on Vegas.
The Rays are consistently competitive but park location and facility don’t help. Betting on a new ballpark is a big gamble. As far as I can tell, moving to Nashville would be far safer. Whoever gets that one will do very well.
As a Rays fan who has been following the team religiously for 20 years, I agree with this comment. The Rays Front Office (RFO) has been trading left and right for enough years that Rays fans are never rabid over a player. Oddly, and as much as he is viewed as the greatest player for the Rays, it may have been the trade of Longoria that may have convinced Rays fans that for the Rays to win consistently, they cannot hold onto a player forever. (Longoria should have been traded one year earlier, after a great year, not after a mediocre year.)
Serious Rays fans are Leninists. They view the success of the team as the most important quality of a season, not the success of a single player. Could BOS, STL, LAD, NYY, NYM, etc., which rely so heavily on the need for a hero, operate the same way?
No, and it’s why I find Rays fans suspicious, because who are they rooting for? The team has no real history. They’re successful, I guess, but they don’t capture the hearts and minds the way sports should.
Maybe they’re big Wade Boggs fans or something.
Their intellectualism and willingness to experiment is what has captured my attention for nearly two decades. I guess I’m not a traditionalist.
This is an article that I would love to read:
“Even if you value the first win above replacement at a much lower rate than the others, as teams increasingly choose to do (as they should, in my opinion)”
I thought the same thing. The whole $/WAR way of thinking has become totally pervasive over the last five or ten years, I think largely because it’s so easy to do as an ad hoc, back-of-the-envelope form of estimation, even while the whole time, everyone on some level “knows” that it’s at best a nonlinear relationship in about a zillion separate ways. I would really want to see a whole series of articles about the things $/WAR gets wrong.
I suspect it is because 1 WAR players are easy to find, so the law of supply and demand suggests they should be cheap. That’s even before you count the cost controlled players that can probably provide 1 WAR.
I came here to post the same thing. This is a super interesting idea to expand on and Mike ^^^ has got a bead on it
I keep thinking about it so…
The White Sox plan to deploy a middle infield of Paul deJong and Nicky Lopez. ZIPS has the two worth about 2 wins total (one each) and they are paying them a combined $6M, much less than $9M per, or whatever number you choose. Or they maybe could have used a AAA player (if they had one) for under a million. There are lots of players like that so no need to pay $9M/WAR for one of them. Tim Anderson just signed for 1/$5M, for instance.
On the other hand, if you want someone who is actually good, there are a lot fewer of those players. Only about 40 middle infielders put up 2.0 WAR or more last year, and maybe 20 who were worth 3 WAR. Most of those are not available. So maybe you do have to pay them $18M AAV to get them to play for you. One way to look at that is you are paying $3M for the first win which you can get anywhere, but $15M for the second, which is a lot harder to find. Or if it is 3/$27M and the first win costs $3M, the next two wins average out at $12M per year.
The weird thing is, at the very top of the scale teams also pay less for wins. The highest AAV’s ever were around $40M, so anybody worth more than 5 wins becomes a bargain again!
No, it would be $3M for the first win plus the usual $8M for the second win for a total of $11M. Plus, that’s only if you think the second win is worth as much as the others, which I don’t. I don’t think you get close to $8M/WAR until you reach about the 4th win (after the earlier discounts). Basically, I don’t think it’s very linear until you hit the very high end of the scale.
That’s all before you factor in how hard it is to measure WAR for catchers and pitchers in general, while relief pitchers break the scale almost completely. Then there are primary DHs who generally get paid more than their WAR indicates (although, I consider that a problem with how WAR measures the DH position in the first place).
The distorting effects of pre-arb and arb-eligible players are probably worth a deep dive individually for each category even before you get to attempting a unified field theory for expected value of players.
Cosmologists and quantum theorists think they have it tough? Let them try analyzing WAR projections!
I think it’s about uncertainty. If players have a +/1 1 win error bar, a 1 win player is easy to describe as being replacement level
See: Rosario, Amed.
Another small piece of the Rays success is that because they never sign guys to huge contracts they basically never have dead money on their books (and proactively trade guys when they get expensive). There are plenty of other low payroll teams who are not as successful, so clearly this is only a small piece of the puzzle, but a piece of the puzzle nonetheless.
They’ve signed two players to big-ish contracts as far as I know. Evan Longoria, and Wander Franco. They eventually traded Longoria, but that deal worked out nicely for them. Franco would have been a great contract if he liked ’em a bit older instead.
Longoria’s 2nd contract really didn’t work out well for them. He had negative trade value when they sent him to the Giants, and they actually ate $2m of Longo’s pay each year for a few years.
They still got enough value from Longoria in 2017 (the one year they kept him under that 2nd extension) and then did manage to trade him away for his bad years that it was ultimately a pretty good deal for them despite eating over $10M.
Article suggestion: is team/coaching a thing? It should be doable to filter the data against projections and group by team to see, quantitatively, which teams get more out of their pitchers or hitters or whatever, after acquisition. If a pitcher is acquired by the rays, does he outperform his projection over the next 12 months? How about the angels?
Great scouting and development, smart trading, all help. A bit of secret sauce–the Rays are not tied to any “traditions” and no one is an untouchable. There’s really no such thing as a “Face of the Franchise” that they can’t give up on. Last year their two oldest position players were 31, and no one else was older than 28. Two oldest starters were 29. They don’t need to be sentimental and give the geezer/veteran another contract for a few million because he’s a “great clubhouse guy”. This cold-bloodedness works brilliantly. You stay with the organization so long as you are productive and reasonably priced. After that, you get traded off or you become a free agent. You won’t see “legacy” players–look how much money the Yankees paid Jeter for his last five years and what he contributed on the field. This isn’t to knock Jeter as much as it is to reflect on the Yankee’s FO perception that had to keep the Captain. The fact that they are a lower-revenue team helps them in communicating to players that it’s not personal–
Also a lot of players who have a choice in the matter but aren’t going to command mega-deals (like Rosario and the Japanese pitcher they signed to an MiLB deal even though he had some MLB offers) are eager to join the Rays because they know they’ll get the most out of them and set them up for a bigger contract elsewhere, like Robert Stephenson did after escaping the Pirates last season. In essence, they’re kind of a finishing school.
This probably hurts revenue though – having a lifelong Ray or two would possibly drum up some interest locally, it’s a hard balancing act but occasionally I think the Rays would be well served to try to keep a guy around for 20 years.
Another thing the Rays deserve tremendous credit for is their pro scouting (especially of the lower levels of the minors). They always seem to identify the guy in your minor leagues who isn’t dazzling you but ends up way better than expected (i.e., Paredes, Junior Caminero). In fact they’ve rode this kind of success in trading to their current run as their drafting had been terrible in the previous decade. From 2010 to 2020 the only impact MLBers they drafted in the first round were Blake Snell (and he was the only one of about 10 picks they had in the first 50 in 2011 – when they gamed the comp pick rules before they were changed – that panned out) and Josh Lowe. Finally in the last three years they’ve made some quality picks (Carson Williams, Xavier Isaac, Braden Taylor) in the 1st round but it’s their pro scouting that got them where they are today.
I would add that the Rays have a unique home field that is challenging for visiting teams because it is so different from other MLB stadiums.
It’s not that the Cardinals had too many outfielders. They easily could’ve kept Palacios as a guy who got optioned back and forth as injuries occurred or even beaten out Burleson as the 5th outfielder. The Cardinals really needed bullpen upgrades, so a year of Kittridge was more valuable to them despite giving up 6 or more years of control over Palacios..
Still, this is another way in which the Rays create value.
You forgot to mention one of Caballero’s most attractive qualities, which is his base stealing ability. That adds nice value too.