JAWS and the 2021 Hall of Fame Ballot: Bobby Abreu
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2021 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
Bobby Abreu could do just about everything. A five-tool player with dazzling speed, a sweet left-handed stroke, and enough power to win a Home Run Derby, he was also one of the game’s most patient, disciplined hitters, able to wear down a pitcher and unafraid to hit with two strikes. While routinely reaching the traditional seasonal plateaus that tend to get noticed — a .300 batting average (six times), 20 homers (nine times), 30 steals (six times), 100 runs scored and batted in (eight times apiece) — he was nonetheless a stathead favorite for his ability to take a walk (100 or more eight years in a row) and his high on-base percentages (.400 or better eight times). And he was durable, playing 151 games or more in 13 straight seasons. “To me, Bobby’s Tony Gwynn with power,” said Phillies hitting coach Hal McRae in 1999.
“Bobby was way ahead of his time [with] regards to working pitchers,” said his former manager Larry Bowa when presenting him for induction into the Phillies Wall of Fame in 2019. “In an era when guys were swinging for the fences, Bobby never strayed from his game. Because of his speed, a walk would turn into a double. He was cool under pressure, and always in control of his at-bats. He was the best combination of power, speed, and patience at the plate.”
The one thing Abreu couldn’t seem to do was gain full appreciation for his broad set of gifts. Despite enough promise to land on Baseball America’s Top 100 Prospects list four times, his first two teams, the Astros and Rays, sold unfathomably low on him. On the advice of Ed Wade, who was about to replace him as the Phillies’ general manager, Lee Thomas scored quite a coup in acquiring him just before he turned 24. Abreu excelled perennially, but the core of players that Wade and the Phillies amassed — some of whom would eventually help the team dominate the NL East — didn’t jell during Abreu’s tenure, and so he toiled in semi-obscurity.
From 1998, his first year as a regular in Philadelphia, to 2004 he was the game’s fifth- or sixth-most valuable player according to the two flavors of WAR, behind only Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Todd Helton (via B-Ref), Andruw Jones, and teammate Scott Rolen, yet not until the last of those seasons, his age-30 campaign, did he make his first All-Star team. He made just two during his 18 seasons, and won a Gold Glove, albeit only after his his fielding took a turn for the worse.
Abreu wasn’t perfect. He developed a reputation for moodiness early in his career, and gave his first manager in Philadelphia, Terry Francona, headaches. As early as 1999, he gained a reputation for his aversion to outfield walls. His selectivity at the plate — he swung at just 34.9% of all pitches from 2002 (when our splits start) to ’14, the majors’ third-lowest rate — was sometimes mistaken for passivity. He became a target for criticism because he didn’t fit the blue-collar mold of so many Philadelphia favorites. When he was traded to the Yankees in mid-2006, the year before the Phillies embarked upon their a streak of five straight division titles, one writer referred to Abreu as a “fan punching bag.” Even so, Bowa, then serving as the Yankees’ third base coach, recommended the trade to general manager Brian Cashman.
The Phillies Wall of Fame is one thing, but the greater honor of the Baseball Hall of Fame will be another story. While Abreu was roughly a six-win player for that 1998-2004 run, he’s a bit short of the JAWS standard for right fielders. When he debuted on the ballot last year, the question wasn’t whether he’d ever get to 75%, it was whether he’d clear the 5% needed to stay on the ballot. He did, albeit by just two votes. Between this year’s comparatively thin slate and a just-launched campaign by the Phillies, he’ll get a closer look during this cycle. He was the final cut from my virtual ballot process last year, but with an actual ballot in my hot little hand this time, I’m happy to take another look.
| Player | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Bobby Abreu | 60.2 | 41.6 | 50.9 |
| Avg. HOF RF | 71.5 | 42.1 | 56.8 |
| H | HR | AVG/OBP/SLG | OPS+ |
| 2,470 | 288 | .291/.395/.475 | 128 |
Born on March 11, 1974 in Maracay, Venezuela, Abreu was the second of six children of mother Aguenda and father Nelson Abreu, a baseball fanatic whose job was loading crates onto trucks, which in the impoverished village of Turmero made the family comparatively middle class (which meant “no in-house telephones and minimal hot running water,” according to Jeff Pearlman’s 2001 Sports Illustrated profile). Nelson imparted Bob Kelly Abreu with a middle name in honor of Pat Kelly, a former All-Star outfielder who starred in the Venezuelan Winter League. Bob and brothers Nelson (the oldest), Dennys, and Nielsen all played professionally, though only Dennys rose above High-A. The boys played stickball in the streets of Turmero and soaked in the baseball wisdom of their father, who watched any American game that he could.
Abreu gravitated to baseball, and at age 14, while playing in a national tournament, came to the attention of Andres Reimer, a Hungarian-born scout who was in the process of convincing the Astros to finance a baseball academy in Valencia, about 20 miles away. For two years, Abreu split his time between attending classes and playing baseball at the nascent academy. In August 1990, when Abreu was 16, he signed a professional contract with the Astros, thus becoming the first of a wave of Venezuela-born players whom the team would sign via Reimer, a list that includes Raul Chavez, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, Richard Hidalgo, Melvin Mora, Roberto Petagine, and Johan Santana. He began his stateside professional career in 1991, and after hitting .292/.375/.402 with eight homers and 15 steals for the Astros’ Asheville affiliate, cracked the Baseball America Top 100 prospects list at No. 95.
Unfortunately, shortly after Abreu signed with Houston, his father was hit by a car in Turnero, an accident that left him a paraplegic. In 1992, while Bobby was playing in the VWL, he learned that his father had flown to Cuba for surgery in hopes of restoring feeling to his legs, and died in the operating room. Shortly afterwards, Bobby began asking people to call him by his father’s nickname, “El Comedulce,” a moniker that was nebulous in origin but that loosely translates to “the candy-eater.”
By 1995, Abreu’s age-21 season, he was in Triple-A, hitting .304/.395/.516 with 17 triples (tops in the Pacific Coast League), 16 steals, and 10 homers for the Astros’ Tucson affiliate, a performance that pushed him to 29th on BA’s list. He was slightly less successful while repeating the level, and reportedly sulked after being sent down at the end of spring training, though the Astros still thought highly enough of him to recall him for a September cup of coffee. His debut, on September 1 against the Pirates, was the ultimate in anticlimax, as he was announced as a pinch-hitter but was replaced when the Pirates switched from righty Chris Holt to lefty Dan Plesac. He went 0-for-10 with a walk in his first 10 games before finally collecting his first hit, a pinch hit single off the Mets’ Bobby Jones on September 24.
Abreu opened the 1997 season as the Astros’ starting right fielder and reeled off a nine-game hitting streak, but he was batting just .245/.335/.361 before fracturing a hamate bone in his right hand. Lost in the outfield shuffle upon returning in early July, he played just five games before being sent back to Tucson. “He went to Triple A with a poor attitude, and he had a bad year,” Astros general manager Gerry Hunsicker told SI. “He looked like he was going backward.”
Though he made the team’s playoff roster, the Astros soured upon Abreu to the point of leaving him unprotected in the expansion draft; beyond his attitude were concerns about his ability to hit breaking balls and his tentative baserunning. Teams could protect only 15 players from the entire organization for the first round of 14 picks by the new Arizona Diamondbacks and Tampa Bay Devil Rays, and the Astros chose to protect Hidalgo over Abreu, who was taken sixth by Tampa Bay, then immediately flipped to the Phillies in exchange for light-hitting shortstop Kevin Stocker in a prearranged trade.
Stocker produced just 2.7 WAR while batting .250/.329/.347 (75 OPS+) in three seasons for the new club. Abreu began the 1998 season as the Phillies’ right fielder by hitting back-to-back singles off the Mets’ Jones (I realized during writing this that I attended this 14-inning slog, or most of it), and cleared Stocker’s total WAR with the Devil Rays by midseason. Delivering on the promise of his prospect rankings and then some, he hit .312/.409/.497 for a 135 OPS+ with 17 homers, 19 steals, and off-the-charts defense (+28 runs, according to Total Zone); his 6.4 WAR just missed cracking the league’s top 10.
No matter, for Abreu would more or less approximate that level for the next six seasons, delivering 35.2 WAR (5.9 per year) from 1999-2004, with a low of 5.2 in ’01 (the only year in this span in which he didn’t crack the top 10) and a high of 6.6 in ’04. In 1999, he hit .335/.446/.549, leading the league with 11 triples to go with his 27 steals and 20 homers; he placed third in both batting average and on-base percentage (both would stand as career highs) and seventh in OPS+ (147) and WAR (6.1).
Scarcely anybody noticed, for Abreu didn’t make the NL All-Star team, though he did get twice as many points as Barry Bonds in the NL MVP voting — just enough to place 23rd. The story was similar in 2000 (25 homers, 28 steals, 143 OPS+, 6.2 WAR) save for a lack of MVP consideration. He finished a comparatively lofty 16th in the voting in 2001, when he set career highs with 31 homers and 36 steals (his first 30-30 season), but still, All-Star-dom eluded him.
It didn’t help that the Phillies were busy going nowhere even with a young nucleus that included 1996 second-round pick Jimmy Rollins, ’97 NL Rookie of the Year Scott Rolen, ’97 second-rounder Randy Wolf, and ’98 first overall pick Pat Burrell. After winning just 68 games in 1997, their first year under Francona, they won 75, then 77 games before sinking back to 65 in 2000; in late July of that year, they traded away staff ace Curt Schilling, who in April 1997 had accepted a below-market three-year extension to stay.
Francona got the axe at the end of that season, but not before running out of patience with Abreu, who despite his outstanding performances had rankled the manager with his chronic tardiness. Per Pearlman, veteran teammates questioned Abreu’s commitment, and Francona’s authority was undercut when he attempted to send Abreu home after a late arrival, only to have the discipline vetoed by Wade. “Bobby is a wonderful kid,” said Francona, “but last year he got a little sloppy. A lot of it was him going through the growing pains that come with the responsibility of being a very good player. I’ll tell you this — Bobby Abreu is very, very good.”
Abreu straightened out under Bowa, a notorious hardass who in his opening salvo told his players, “Don’t be late. If you are, check in and then go home. Because if you’re late, it means you don’t give a s—.” The Phillies won 86 games that year, as well as in three out of Bowa’s four seasons, but they couldn’t finish any higher than second in the NL East. Abreu, who signed a five-year, $64 million extension in February 2002, kept chugging along, producing a combined 11.4 WAR in 2002-03 with a pair of 20-homer, 100-walk seasons with batting averages of at least .300 and on-base percentages of at least .400. While he may have found a comfort zone with the more old-school manager, Bowa played a significant part in chasing off Rolen, who was dealt to St. Louis for Placido Polanco and two pitchers, a significant step back for the Phillies’ lineup.
Finally, in 2004, Abreu broke through. In the midst of a .301/.428/.544, 30-homer, 40-steal campaign, the 30-year-old right fielder was finally named to an All-Star team, though his game action was limited to striking out in a pinch-hitting appearance. His 6.6 WAR was a career best, ranking eighth in the league, but even so, in the Phillies’ unhappy clubhouse, teammate Billy Wagner confronted him and charged him with not hustling on defense.
Under new manager Charlie Manuel, Abreu’s 2005 wasn’t nearly as strong (126 OPS+, 3.6 WAR), but he was voted to start in the All-Star Game, the first Phillies outfielder to attain that honor since Lenny Dykstra in 1995. Even before going 1-for-2 with a walk from the leadoff spot for the NL squad, he turned heads by winning the Home Run Derby. Selected to represent Venezuela in a format designed to dovetail with the announcement of the 2006 World Baseball Classic, Abreu set records with 24 homers in the first round and 41 overall, besting Puerto Rico’s Ivan Rodriguez in the finals.
Despite the show, Abreu became a poster boy for the mythical Derby hangover effect when he hit just six homers in the second half after 18 in the first. He won his only Gold Glove at season’s end, though it was a dubious selection based more on reputation than metrics (-8 DRS, -7 UZR, his first time in the red via the former).
The power outage carried over somewhat, as Abreu homered just eight times in his first 98 games in 2006. With the team seven games below .500 in late July, the Phillies traded Abreu and pitcher Cory Lidle to the Yankees for a package of four prospects headlined by former first-round pick C.J. Henry; only one prospect dealt (reliever Matt Smith) even got a cup of coffee in Philadelphia.
The Yankees needed a full-time right fielder in the absence of the injured Gary Sheffield, as Bernie Williams simply wasn’t up to the task in what proved to be his final season. Abreu, who had hit a still-useful .277/.427/.434 (118 OPS+) prior to the deal, recaptured his All-Star form, batting .330/.419/.507 (138 OPS+) with seven homers in 58 games in pinstripes. Though he drove in four runs in the Yankees’ Division Series-opening victory against the Tigers, and went 5-for-15 with a walk overall, the Yankees were eliminated in four games.
Abreu spent two more seasons in the Bronx, the second of them after the Yankees picked up his $16 million option for 2008. Though no longer playing at an elite level as he moved into his mid-30s — early-season slumps in both years dragged his final numbers down, and he was 11 runs below average defensively each year — he hit a combined .289/.370/.458 (116 OPS+) with 36 homers, 47 steals, and 5.1 WAR over those two seasons, and furthered his streak of 100-RBI seasons to six. The Yankees couldn’t get past the Indians in the former year, Joe Torre’s final one at the helm; Abreu hit .267/.353/.533 with a ninth-inning homer in Game 4, shortly before the team was eliminated. In the latter year, a banged-up Yankees squad missed the postseason for the first time in the Wild Card era. Meanwhile, Abreu’s ex-Phillies teammates won the World Series.
Abreu hit free agency that fall, but met a rather frosty reception as he tried to counter the notion that he was “a serial compiler,” to use Jerry Crasnick’s term. Reportedly seeking either a three-year deal or two years plus a vesting option for $15-16 million annually, he had to settle for a one-year, $5 million deal from the Angels in early February, just before camps opened. He was more than worth it, delivering 3.2 WAR (the best season he would have after 2006) while hitting .293/.390/.435 with 15 homers and 30 steals. The performance helped the Angels win their third straight AL West title, and they swept the Red Sox in the Division Series. Abreu went 5-for-9 in the series and was right in the middle of Game 3’s three-run ninth-inning rally against Boston closer Jonathan Papelbon, smacking an RBI double and scoring what proved to be the series-clinching run. He struggled in the ALCS against the Yankees, however, going just 4-for-25.
Abreu parlayed that strong 2009 season into a two-plus-vesting extension along the lines of what he had previously sought, albeit with just $19 million guaranteed. Though he managed 20 homers, 24 steals, and a 118 OPS+ in 2010, he sank to a 105 OPS+ with eight homers in ’11 while spending most of the season as a DH. His $9 million option vested, but between the arrival of Albert Pujols in free agency and the return of Kendrys Morales from a year-and-a-half absence due to a broken leg, playing time was hard to come by in early 2012. He made just 27 plate appearances before being released on April 27 so that the Angels could call up a top prospect named Mike Trout.
Quickly resurfacing with the Dodgers, Abreu hit for a 97 OPS+ while spending time in a left field platoon, but the July 31 deadline acquisition of Shane Victorino, Abreu’s former teammate in Philadelphia, consigned him to a pinch-hitting role thereafter. After sitting out the 2013 season while tending to business interests in Venezuela, the 40-year-old Abreu parlayed a strong VWL showing into a minor league deal with the Phillies. Cut in late March, he caught a similar deal with the Mets, whose manager Terry Collins had piloted the Astros when Abreu debuted. Though he flirted with a .300 batting average in late May and early June, he finished at .248/.342/.338 in 155 PA, and near the end of the season, announced his retirement.
…
Aside from stealing exactly 400 bases, Abreu fell just short of some round-numbered milestones that could have helped his Hall of Fame case. He’s 30 hits short of 2,500, 12 homers short of 300, nine points short of a career .300 batting average (he was above the mark until 2009), five points short of a .400 on-base percentage (he slipped below in ’11), and 25 points short of a .500 slugging percentage. The first three of those account for a potential 26 points in the Hall of Fame Monitor, which dishes out credit for things that have tended to sway Hall of Fame voters — seasons or careers at .300, awards, league leads in key stats, playoff appearances, and so on. That said, for as much of a stathead favorite as Abreu is, he hardly eschewed the more traditional markers of success. Even with just the two All-Star selections and the lone Gold Glove, he scores 94 (short of “a good possibility”) on the Monitor thanks largely to his six seasons hitting .300, eight with at least 100 RBI, and eight with at least 100 runs scored.
Abreu’s biggest selling point isn’t batting average but his elite ability to get on base. From 1998-2011, he ranked in his league’s top 10 in walks 12 times, not counting ’06, when he led the majors despite being dealt between leagues. Seven times, he was among his league’s top five, and for his career, his 1,476 walks rank 20th. From 1998-2005, he was among the NL’s top 10 in on-base percentage seven times, and in the majors’ top 10 in ’06. He didn’t come close to 3,000 hits, but his total of 3,949 times on base (hits plus walks plus hit-by-pitches) is 49th all-time, directly above Hall of Famers Tim Raines, Tony Gwynn, Jesse Burkett, and Harold Baines (all but Burkett had more plate appearances). Among players with at least 7,000 PA, Abreu’s .395 on-base percentage is in a virtual tie for 43rd. His 128 OPS+ is tied for 109th, two points below Carl Yastrzemski, Roberto Clemente, and Dave Winfield, one below Zack Wheat and Eddie Murray, tied with Goose Goslin and Jim Rice, and one point ahead of Rickey Henderson, Willie Keeler, and Bill Dickey. All of those are Hall of Famers.
Abreu’s case via WAR and JAWS isn’t quite as convincing. His 369 batting runs (the primary offensive component of WAR) is 83rd all time, but he didn’t add overwhelming value via other aspects of his game. While successful on 75.8% of his stolen base attempts, he was just 16 runs above average as a baserunner, the lowest mark of any post-1950 player with at least 400 attempts and a 75% success rate; that said, he did add another 17 for double play avoidance (20th for the Wild Card era). He was more or less average in the field, a net -7 runs for his career.
Overall, Abreu ranked among the league’s top 10 in WAR five times (and just missed a sixth). His total of 60.2 ranks 19th at the position, 0.3 below Sheffield, 0.5 above Ichiro Suzuki, and 0.7 above Vladimir Guerrero; he’s above 13 of the 27 enshrined right fielders but 11.7 WAR below the standard at a very top-heavy position. His 41.6 peak WAR ranks 16th, ahead of 16 of the 26 enshrined and just 0.8 below the standard.
Abreu is 20th in JAWS, 6.3 points below the standard, ahead of 13 of the 27 Hall of Famers. The rankings from number 14, the first spot below the standard, to number 23 make for an outstanding collection of late 20th- and early 21st-century players: Gwynn, Dwight Evans, Reggie Smith, Ichiro, Sammy Sosa, and Winfield are directly above Abreu, and below the standard as well, while Guerrero is directly below him, followed by Bobby Bonds and Sheffield. Gwynn, Winfield, and Guerrero (one of two BBWAA-elected right fielders who rank below Abreu, the other being the 26th-ranked Keeler) are in the Hall already. Ichiro will be as soon as he’s eligible, while Evans, Sosa, and Sheffield are three guys whose inclusion or exclusion on various ballots I’ve agonized over for countless hours. So too with Abreu, who’s admittedly in borderline territory, but if Winfield with his 3,000-plus hits is a first-ballot guy and Guerrero with his style and substance a second-ballot one — both while notably below standard according to JAWS — then we can at least take a closer look to see if there’s room for one more:
| Player | Career | Peak | WAR | PA | OPS+ | Rbat | Rbase | RDP | Rdef |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dave Winfield | 64.2 | 37.9 | 51.1 | 12358 | 130 | 416 | 38 | -15 | -91 |
| Bobby Abreu | 60.2 | 41.6 | 50.9 | 10081 | 128 | 369 | 16 | 17 | -8 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 59.5 | 41.2 | 50.3 | 9059 | 140 | 429 | -3 | -17 | 7 |
| Gary Sheffield | 60.5 | 38.0 | 49.3 | 10947 | 140 | 561 | -1 | -11 | -195 |
Guerrero and Sheffield are the best hitters of the group, no doubt, with the latter doing it for longer. Abreu’s the most well-rounded of the bunch in terms of things besides hitting, and he’s got the best peak score of the quartet. All of which is to say that while I’m far from 100% convinced he’s a Hall of Famer, I’m thoroughly certain he’s somebody who belongs in the discussion, a player who might be worth finding space for on a ballot — particularly in a year when there aren’t 10 obvious must-vote candidates — if only to ward off the Five Percent Blues.
Last year, Abreu was the unlucky 11th man on my 10-man virtual ballot, and when I omitted him, I expected that he would join the ranks of the one-and-dones. The voters surprised me by keeping him in play, and now with an actual ballot in hand, I have the option to join their ranks. I haven’t made my final decision as to whether I will include him, but as I did add Sheffield for the first time last year, I’ve given myself a bit of leeway to do the same with Abreu.
I’m heartened to see that the Phillies are stepping up an effort of their own, even if their Abreu/Trout comparison is off base, and if some of the stat combinations they cite are of the junk drawer variety that JAWS (which goes unmentioned there) was designed to combat. Nobody cares about that Abreu outranks Babe Ruth in doubles among right fielders. Campaign-wise, I don’t think any team can match what the Mariners did for Edgar Martinez — who had a stronger case for Cooperstown, and who was more fully embedded in the team’s history than Abreu is in Philadelphia — but that’s the model to which any team should aspire in launching such an effort.
You don’t need to be steeped in sabermetrics to know that 5.5% is a long way from 75%, but if the past several years have taught me anything about Hall of Fame voting, it’s that the times are changing, and with them the possibilities for candidates to make such long climbs. Split the distance between Ted Simmons, the first one-and-done candidate to be elected by the Era Committees, and Walker, who sank as low as 10.2% in his fourth year of eligibility, and you can see that it ain’t over for Abreu.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Bobby Abreu is seriously one of the most underrated players of all time. He was an absolutely unique combination of power and speed. In the last 92 seasons since Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker retired, only 2 players have slugged for 0.475 or better and stolen 400 or more bases in their career— Barry Bonds and Bobby Abreu. Abreu is also 1 of only 6 players with 250 home runs and 400 stolen bases (Rickey Henderson, Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonds, Joe Morgan, and Craig Biggio are the others). Add in his incredible plate discipline. Abreu owns a career 0.395 OBP, ranks 20th all time in BB, and had 8 consecutive seasons 100+ walks. In terms of WAR, he accumulated 52.3 fWAR over the 10-year period 1998-2007 which ranks 7th overall and 1st among all RF during that period. So for a decade he was the most valuable RF in the game (even more so than his contemporary Vladimir Guerrero). Abreu was consistent, year after year putting up 5 and 6 WAR seasons as well as hardly ever missing a game (played 150+ games for 13 consecutive seasons). Every former teammate and manager of Abreu’s I have seen in interviews gushed over his ability to play the game so effortlessly and smoothly and was a true 5-tool player. Bobby Abreu should be in the Hall of Fame.
Well, 4 tool player. You don’t need any D to spell “Abreu”.
You should watch clips of him in RF from 1998-2000. He could really play the outfield and had a very strong arm. He was an average to above-average fielder until around his age 30 season. After that he fell off a cliff and then was moved to a DH role. The main problem people have with his candidacy is that all of his numbers when isolated do not scream “Hall of Famer” (except maybe his 574 doubles — all players except Helton who have been eligible and unlinked to PEDs have been inducted). However, when taken together he was in my opinion. For example, in 2009 he became just the 6th player ever with 250 HRs, 2,000 H, 1,000 R, 1,000 RBI, 1,000 BB, and 300 SB. Individually, none of those stats are hall-worthy but together they make something special. That is Bobby Abreu.
For those interested, there are now 9 members of the 250 HRs, 2,000 H, 1,000 R, 1,000 RBI, 1,000 BB, and 300 SB club. They are: Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Derek Jeter, Craig Biggio, Rickey Henderson, Carlos Beltran, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu and Joe Morgan. Pretty elite club.
If I was filling out a ballot, I think I would put him on, for the same reason as Jay. I’m not sure I actually think I’d want him in, but I would want to at least keep thinking about whether he should be in. I’d put Todd Helton in the same category if he was doing worse, except that he’s in no danger of falling off.
Random aside, but I was just comparing Todd Helton to Lance Berkman, and now I can’t decide if I’m less convinced on Helton, or more convinced that Berkman deserved more than a couple votes and a one-and-done.
He was a really good player but I don’t think he was as good as Dave Parker or Dwight Evans and neither of them or in.
He’s 18 WAR clear of Dave Parker in effectively the same number of games.
Yeah this is where I have issues with WAR. Parker had more hits, home runs, rbi’s, triples, more gold gloves, more silver sluggers, 1 MVP award and a runner up MVP. There was also a stretch in the late 70’s where Parker was arguably the best player in baseball.
Sounds like your issue with WAR is that you just don’t understand it. Bobby Abreu had every line on his slash line better than Parker (.291/.395/.475) vs. (.290/.339/.471). Bottom line is Abreu was still a more valuable hitter because he got out much less and slugged just as good. Parker leads in those offensive counting stats that you cherrypicked because he walked much less, over 800 times less. Guys with great plate discipline and OBP rates always get hurt if you only go by traditional counting stats. Abreu was the much better baserunner as well.
Abreu has less silver sluggers and MVP consideration because he wasn’t recognized, not because he wasn’t worthy. Maybe Parker’s peak was slightly higher, but if you choose any peak longer than 3 seasons you’ll see that Abreu was even more valuable. Parker then fell of a cliff production wise after the 70s, he was only an average player 2 WAR once in his final 12 seasons, with most of them hovering around replacement level. Abreu might not have had a claim to being the best player in baseball, but he was amazingly consistent. Abreu only had 4 seasons below an average season of 2 WAR (and 3 of them came in his final 3 seasons).
So you don’t like WAR because it doesn’t line up with your outdated assessment of value, that’s not a legitimate issue. You like old school stats and award recognition when it comes to evaluating players, that’s the issue here.
Dave Parker had five excellent-to-awesome years, one where he was pretty good, and then for the rest of his career managed to somehow only put up 5+ wins, in total. It’s pretty cool that he put up roughly 36 wins over about 3900 PAs, but for those other 6000+ PAs he was barely above replacement level. I wouldn’t have even wanted to roster him for over half of his career.
The story is that in 1979, he injured his knee, kept playing on it, and it never really was the same; he played on one knee for at least a few years and maybe much longer, had a litany of other injuries, put on a lot of bad weight, did way too much cocaine, and aside from one great year in 1985 (apparently, I don’t remember him in 1985, but the page doesn’t lie) never really was the same. Dude’s career was basically wrecked. It’s amazing he hung around as long as he did.
I loved him in the 80s, despite all of it. Big personality. Lots of power. Slow as a drunk turtle, though, and definitely not a Hall of Famer.
No one in their right mind believes Abreu was a better player than Dave Parker at their respective peaks. No one ever said Abreu was the best player in the game. They said that about Parker often. The issue with Parker is that after 1979 he tailed off a lot due to injuries and drugs. He had a bit of a comeback in the mid 1980’s but by then he was a hitter only. He gained a bunch of weight and had no defensive nor baserunning value. A lot of Abreu’s value is tied to his walks. He did walk a lot. But he was never a great hitter overall IMO. He was well behind the true great hitters of his era. Abreu did bring a lot of value to his teams, though. Whether that makes him a Hall of Famer I just don’t know.
FWIW, here’s Jay’s writeup on Dave Parker and the Hall of Fame. I like the Dale Murphy comparison.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/despite-stardom-and-swagger-dave-parker-is-still-short-of-cooperstown/
Jgrub7 makes a very convincing case; Abreu would be a tougher decision for me, were I a voter, than I might have thought. But my current opinion is that “great” and “underappreciated” doesn’t equal “legendary.” The majority of his case is those seven straight 5-6 win seasons from 1998 to 2004. But after that, it was six straight 2-4 win seasons and out. For me, the peak isn’t long enough or high enough, and the longevity and tail end was just a little too short.
Interesting you should mention those 7 seasons. The WAR Abreu produced during those 7 years (his WAR7) ranks 16th best all time among right fielders. So best RF for a decade and one of the best peaks ever for a RF. Put him in.
Saying that the 16th best peak is one of the best peaks ever is a stretch. Per WAR, he ranks 21st overall among RFs. Using that simplistic method (how does their WAR rank all time among others at their position), he’s borderline.
To me, he’s a test case to see if someone is a big hall guy, or a small hall guy.
I was saying that Abreu’s total WAR for his best 7 seasons was better than every other right fielder’s best 7 seasons except for 15 players. Given that there have been hundreds of right fielders over the years, I would think that we might be able to call that extraordinary. It is not one of the best peaks ever, it is one of the best peaks ever for right fielders. Also Abreu’s WAR7 of 41.6 would rank in the top 20 for any position. Yes, his total career ranks little lower so what? It is still in the vicinity of Hall of Fame quality and better than nearly half of current HOF right fielders (13 out of 27). Remember, Vladimir Guerrero was a no doubt HOFer and he had below average WAR, WAR7, and JAWS. Again, Abreu’s HOF case does not rest solely on his WAR and to only include that as justification would be to not understand the full picture (see more explanation in post above). You have to include Abreu’s superlative combination of qualities like plate discipline, power, high level consistency, and speed.
What does that mean big hall vs small hall? Where do you draw the line? A player is either a HOFer or not.
Yes to Abreu.
10K PA with an .870 OPS and 400 SB? I’ll have some of that, thank you.
Outfield is a funny place to try to get HOF votes if you don’t have pure power.
I am also a yes to Jim Edmonds, and Edmonds fell short of the 5%. Edmonds and Abreu are not “the same guy”, but they face the same hurdle: a truly great all-around career without 400 HR.
Edmonds is on the list of guys who really should be in, alongside Whitaker, Grich, and Lofton. Interestingly those are both 2B and CF, and I’m wonder if that’s a thing. 3B has Nettles, and Dick Allen doesn’t really have a single position…those are the other position players who got robbed in my book.
In contrast, you don’t really get that at the corner outfield the same way. The closest we have to a serious oversight is probably Dwight Evans, Gary Sheffield, and Bobby Abreu, and while we can easily pick out worse corner outfielders in there it’s not quite as glaring. I think I prefer Abreu and Sheffield over Evans because their peaks were undoubtedly hall-worthy, but at some point their defense went from not-great to almost unplayable. It’s hard to judge cases like that.
3B also has Buddy Bell. Dave Parker is an oversight as well.
Even 400 HR doesn’t do it.
I think he’s deserving. I probably irrationally hold a special spot for unique players (in this case speed+power).
Being unique is essential! All HOFers are special for one reason or another. His speed/power combo is what sets him apart! The hard part is recognizing that something is special while it is happening. Not many people noticed he was accomplishing something (0.475 SLG and 400 SB) that only 2 players have done in nearly 100 years of baseball. The narrative is that he wasnt a HOFer when his numbers and accomplishments put in the company of the very best to play RF.
So Andruw Jones is a slam dunk too. Goat defensive CF, .486 career SLG. But again, I have a soft spot for unique (D+Power)
Bobby Abreu had 60.2 career bWAR and 2 All-Star selections.
Dante Bichette had 5.7 career bWAR and 4 All-Star selections.
Bichette did a little better in fWAR, but he also has one of the most amazing seasons in all of major league baseball, managing to put up a triple slash of .295/.354/.541 and…well, you’ll just have to read it for yourself:
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/dante-bichettes-unbelievable-1999-season/
On top of all of that, I swear he was roided out during his Colorado years. He went from looking relatively agile to looking like a football player.
Not saying Bichette was a star or anything, but he is a prime example of wRC+ being off for Coors players, imo.
Isn’t RF the position with the highest JAWS standard other than SP?
I feel like if he’s ahead of ~50% of those already enshrined in peak, total, and JAWS that should weigh more heavily than the actual mean, which as mentioned briefly in the article is very heavily skewed by a few guys at the very top. Similar to SP in that regard, though SP also has quite a few Dead Ball Era bottom dwellers further screwing with the numbers.
Here again I fell that a band identifying the standard deviation at the position would be useful.
Jaffe has already mentioned in previous articles and comments that the standard deviations for WAR/WAR7/JAWS are too wide to be useful.
Perhaps, but Jay’s calling the average “the standard “ seems misleading. Being short of “the standard” seems much worse than being below the average. And particularly in this case where the average is ballooned by the top players in the RF category.
I agree but providing the standard deviations creates even more confusion with random cut off points that mean very little. I think this is just an issue of misinterpreting what Jay’s original goal with JAWS was to begin with. I think what Jay had in mind was to uphold a certain standard in the Hall and the first way to do that was to find out what the average HOFer looks like. I do not think Jay intends for the average JAWS ranking to be used as “the standard” but I think it is so we do not induct players far below the average and diminish the HOF itself. I definitely feel that Vladimir Guerrero is a HOFer and he was below the mean WAR, WAR7, and JAWS rankings for right fielders. I think there is an allowable margin below the average but it is not a specific number — it is based on feel.
Maybe the median along with the average.
I realize that the FG audience is a mix of statistically savvy and not, but I would certainly appreciate a more nuanced approach.
He was probably better than Tony Gwynn, who got 98% of the vote . But walks aren’t as sexy as singles
Say what now?
He said that a player who had a .395 OBP over 10k PAs and stole 400 bases was probably better than a player who had a .388 OPB over 10k PAs and stole 319 bases. Sounds pretty defensible to me!
Are we talking about the late Tony Gwynn, or Tony Gwynn Jr.?
Fun Tony Gwynn fact – he not only walked more than he struck out, in his career, but if you remove his intentional walks he STILL walked more than he struck out. Amazing.
This is definitely a silly debate. Tony Gwynn has about 65 fWAR, Abreu has about 60. In his 5 best seasons, Gwynn had about 29 fWAR, and Abreu has 31. The lead expands if you go to best 7 years, but by about 2 wins. Abreu was a bit better on offense because he had better baserunning and more power, Gwynn was less terrible on defense, probably because he could fake CF a bit at some point early on. Gwynn had the best year overall at 7.4 fWAR. Making an argument for one but not the other is a bit of an own goal, because you have to say that the line is somewhere between them, and it implies that both of them are really close to it.
That said, I would make the argument that based on his peak, Abreu (and Sheffield, as long as we’re at it) is a shade more deserving than Dave Winfield. Probably a better peak than Vlad Guerrero too, and slightly better career overall.
You mean 3000 hits, 465 hr, 1833 rbi,, 7 gold gloves and 6 silver sluggers Dave Winfield and 2500 hits, 449 homers, 1496 rbi’s with a .318 career batting average with 8 silver sluggers and 1 MVP Vlad Guerrero? I don’t think he’s more deserving than either of them.
Dude, who cares about RBIs? Welcome to Fangraphs, I guess.
Interesting. I can’t argue with your points, but I just don’t see them as that close.
While their career OBP’s (.395 to .388, Abreu) and wRC+ (132 to 129, Gwynn) are close but not materially different, I do believe very strongly that hits are more valuable than walks, and that strikeouts are obviously the least valuable outcome for a batter. Tony Gwynn was one of the best hitters ever and rarely struck out; their OBP’s are similar but Gwynn’s hits create far more value than Abreu’s walks over time, and his absurdly low strikeout totals create a lot of value as well.
And while Abreu has the edge in stolen bases, Gwynn ran with abandon his first eight seasons. It took a knee injury in 1991 to sap his speed on the basepaths… and then knee injuries again in 1992 and 1993 seem to herald the end of his time as a dominant defender. (With the exception of an aberration in 1989, he was a positive-career defender virtually every year through 1992 and then fell off after the third knee surgery.)
For me, Gwynn was a FAR better defender than Abreu. There was a while where Gwynn was a perennial Gold Glover, and earned them… he played a really good outfield his first decade. I don’t remember Abreu as good or consistent on defense as he’s being portrayed in this thread. The defensive numbers bear this out, at least according to the positional adjustment in fWAR for two players at a similar position. Again, before the knee injuries, Gwynn was a really, really great defender.
And yet, as a left-handed hitter, despite multiple injuries to his left knee (the back knee in his stance), Tony Gwynn still could hit the ball and get on base. And then the Achilles injury – and he played several more years after that.
I think some folks remember the Tony Gwynn of the 1990’s – batting 3rd , getting a lot of hits, playing an average or below average RF… but man, the Tony Gwynn of the ’80’s before the knee injuries – a former basketball star, who led off or batted 2nd, stole 56 bases in 1987, and always put the ball in play… THAT was a legend.
I think there is something to be said for the memories of a legend helping in borderline cases. Statistically, though, I am really not seeing a case.
He seems like he would be a pretty good candidate for a ZiPs time warp. I still don’t think he was ever going to be as good as Wade Boggs, who was mind-Boggs-ingly good (he had SIX years better than Gwynn’s best year) but you can imagine a universe where he averages 200 hits a year in the 1990s, gets another 1000 PAs or so in the 2000s, and winds up #3 on the all-time hits list (although if you’re messing with history then Ichiro probably also gets to play in the US at age 21).
Walks. Are. Not. As. Good. As. Singles.
This is from a guy on a sabremetric reddit board (so I can’t 100% vouch for it), but it makes a good case:
A few people in the other thread mentioned it bugs them when people say a walk is as good as a single. I decided to take a look at the average WPA (win probability added) for all walks vs. singles in 2015, by bases-occupied configuration.
BEHOLD:
Scenario BB_PA BB_tWPA Single_PA Single_tWPA BB_aWPA Single_aWPA BB/Single%
— 7259 187.1 15747 419.1 .0258 .0266 97%
1– 2058 70.2 5580 240.1 .0341 .0430 79%
-2- 1926 27.1 2112 134.9 .0141 .0639 22%
–3 724 9.7 777 50.6 .0134 .0651 21%
12- 866 38.8 1818 146.1 .0448 .0804 56%
-23 619 6.9 502 47.8 .0111 .0952 12%
123 241 21.7 672 79.3 .0900 .1180 76%
TOTAL 14073 371.2 28017 1178.7 .0264 .0421 63%
Looks like a walk is as good as a single with the bases empty. There is only a very slight advantage to hitting a single because an error could conceivably put you in scoring position.
With just a guy on 2nd or just a guy on 3rd, a single is about 5 times as good as a walk.
With guys just on 2nd and 3rd, walks are practically worthless.
With just a guy on 1st or the bases loaded, about 75-80% as good.
1st and 2nd, a walk is about half as good as a single.
Basically, in situations where you can’t move up the lead runner (guy on 2nd, on 3rd, or 2nd and 3rd) then a walk is pretty close to useless, and only about 19% as good as a single. In situations where you can move up the lead runner (or become the lead runner) with a walk, it’s 82% as good as a single, and thus very close to being just as good.
Overall, when looking at a player’s season totals, in 2015 a walk was about 2/3rds as good as a single, but it varies a lot by situation
Thank you. At some point you need guys at the plate who can put the ball in play and more often than not safely. I would take a lineup of .300 hitters everyday of the week.
A walk is never “close to useless” – no sabermetrcian would ever agree with you, even though you are correct about singles always having an advantage.
A walk is never pretty close to useless, because a walk is never an out.
This is the whole thing that I feel like sometimes gets lost here. Once you spend a lot of time on fangraphs you start to feel like a walk is close to a hit, and batting average and RBI’s are garbage stats. Whereas if you spend a lot of time reading ESPN comments about Joey Votto not driving guys in you think that walks are worthless and RBIs are important. While I agree with the general argument, that batting average and RBI’s aren’t really stats you should be looking at, the idea behind them makes sense. Even more today then in the past, with high K% pitchers, and amazing defense, the ability to get hits is important. Not saying that Joey Votto needed to do something different, but there is actually some merit to what people said about him: Walking a lot with runners in scoring position isn’t the same as getting hits in those situations.
The reality is when ESPN Commenter Reds4life6969 says ” Swing the damn Bat VOTTO! ” He isn’t entirely wrong.
Wow! Just wow! Tony Gwynn was one of the best hitters ever! I don’t care what stats you want to cherry pick I don’t believe there’s a manager ever that would rather have Abreu at bat than Gwynn. Not to mention Gwynn did win more gold gloves than Abreu ( 5 – 1 ) and Gwynn only struck out 434 times his entire career. Abreu beat that in any 4 seasons of his prime
Abreu has a lot in common with Joey Votto. Both delivered sick OBP, solid if not top of scale power per position, plus defense that fell off over time, and little postseason success.
Differences are that Abreu good flat-out run (300+ SBs, triples!), and Votto played in a post-moneyball era that praised instead of criticized him for excessively walking.
Dave Parker does feel like a sensible “historical” comp, and I’d have to strongly consider voting both in.
Dave Parker is not a good comp for Abreu. Parker never walked more than 67 times in season and his OBP was much lower at 0.339. Abreu was much more well rounded as was a far superior base stealer. Their counting stat totals are similar but Abreu played 1 fewer season and scored more runs, hit more doubles, stole more bases, took more walks, and achieved a higher OPS+. Their skill sets were much different. Parker hit for average and power but was missing in the OBP, base running component. Honestly, in many ways Abreu is a Bonds lite.
Parker won an MVP and was considered the best player in the game for about a 2 to 3 year stretch. He also had more hits, home runs, rbi’s and triples. He ran a little but not much stealing 20 bases twice and the teens a few more times. Parker won more gold gloves and silver sluggers. He didn’t walk much but in his era the big bats went to the plate to deliver, not draw a walk. So yes, Parker is not a good comp, he’s better.
I don’t agree with you that Parker was a better hitter than Abreu.
But I do agree with you that one of the problems with comparing statistics across eras is that you are penalizing the player for the style of play and the managerial decisions that were common at that time. I’m pretty sure that young Dave Parker, as a perceived “RBI Guy,” would have been threatened with benching or demotion for leaving the bat on his shoulders. As a result, it’s not fair to judge his walks or OBP by the way we understand the game through a modern lens. Advanced stats can adjust against league-average performance, but then stepping back and comparing counting stats or rate stats across eras leads to this penalty.
All that said, Dave Parker (41 WAR / 120 wRC+) was not as dominant in his own era as Bobby Abreu was in his (60 WAR, 129 wRC+). Parker was a bigger name and a more feared hitter, but Abreu was the better player in his time.
Abreu is a tolerable if not exciting selection if you are a “Big Hall” kind of guy but really not there for us “Small Hall” guys. But obviously, this forum is more Big Hall than Small Hall.
And we need to remind ourselves that the HOF is not ONLY the “Hall of Guys With The Best WAR and JAWs.” There is a bit of a glamor/fame element to it. Which Abreu had in far lower quantities than the Kirby Pucketts, Dave Winfields, and Vlad Guererros of the world…
To the readers that use players that did not make into the hall as benchmarks. Please realize that if you think those non-inclusions were a mistake then holding current ballot players to their standard is just attempting to make even more “mistakes” out of some skewed sense of respect or vindictiveness. We get it someone like Dick Allen should be in the hall, but that doesn’t mean you have to be better than Dick Allen to get into the hall.