Jay Jaffe’s 2022 Hall of Fame Ballot
The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2022 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
The irony of graduating from being a virtual Hall of Fame voter to an actual one at this particular point in time has not been lost on me. Last year, my first as a voter but my 20th as an analyst, 18th while armed with the system that became JAWS, and 11th as a member of the BBWAA, featured a comparatively mediocre crop of first-year candidates, a few shocking discoveries about popular holdovers, and a whole lot of polarizing debate. The end result was the voters’ first shutout since the 2013 ballot. Talk about an anticlimax!
As I noted at the outset of this year’s election cycle, the possibility of another shutout has loomed large, and the arrivals of David Ortiz and Alex Rodriguez just as Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa reached their final year of eligibility guaranteed that everyone’s favorite topic, performance-enhancing drugs, would remain at the forefront of discussion, not only during this election cycle, but so long as A-Rod remains on the ballot. See you in 2032?
In any event, the paper ballot fell into my hot little hands on November 24, and for all of the above, it was still much anticipated. Not only has the novelty not worn off, but the easing of traffic during the last two cycles has given a handful of candidates that I favor some room to build towards the magical 75% — if not this year, then sometime in the next few years.
While I’ve mostly known whom I planned to include, I went through my full process before finalizing this ballot, just as I’ve done with my virtual ballots. This year, that process was interrupted by a double barrel of fascinating Era Committee candidates and required some creative approaches to squeezing the major candidates in. I’ve still got a handful of one-and-done stragglers to cover in early January, none of whom are in serious consideration for space on my ballot, but their careers deserve a proper valedictory.
Despite last year’s shutout, the record 22 candidates elected over the previous seven cycles eased what was once a nearly unmanageable backlog. Circa 2014, the ballot had 17 players who met or exceeded the JAWS standards at their respective positions, and 14 with a JAWS of at least 50.0 (or 40.0 for catchers), thus requiring all but the most small-Hall-minded voters to perform some kind of triage in order to winnow the field down to 10 candidates who could fit on their ballots.
Even with those numbers reduced to seven meeting or exceeding the JAWS standards and 10 with at least 50.0, there’s still no such thing as a perfect ballot. With my annual exercise has always come an acknowledgement of the numerous subjective choices that go into selecting even the most objectively-minded slate. How much leeway to grant if one is using WAR and JAWS? How much emphasis to put on postseason performance, awards, and less quantifiable considerations? Where to draw the line on PEDs? What if we’ve learned things about these players’ off-field lives that we can’t stomach? Perfection may be unattainable, but that’s not to say it’s not worth pursuing, and if we don’t get there… well, we do the best we can.
With that ample preamble out of the way, we turn to the actual slate. Over the past six weeks, I’ve analyzed the top 22 candidates on the ballot, the ones in serious consideration for my 10 spots. It’s time to fish or cut bait.
| Player | YoB | Standards | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS | Margin |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Barry Bonds | 10 | 3 | 162.7 | 72.7 | 117.7 | 64.3 |
| Roger Clemens | 10 | 3 | 139.2 | 64.0 | 101.6 | 44.8 |
| Alex Rodriguez | 1 | 3 | 117.5 | 64.3 | 90.9 | 35.4 |
| Curt Schilling | 10 | 3 | 79.5 | 47.5 | 63.5 | 6.7 |
| Manny Ramirez | 6 | 2 | 69.3 | 39.9 | 54.6 | 1.2 |
| Scott Rolen | 5 | 3 | 70.1 | 43.6 | 56.9 | 1.1 |
| Todd Helton | 4 | 2 | 61.8 | 46.6 | 54.2 | 0.0 |
| Andruw Jones | 5 | 1 | 62.7 | 46.4 | 54.6 | -3.6 |
| Billy Wagner | 7 | 0 | 27.7 | 19.8 | 24.9 | -4.8 |
| Joe Nathan | 1 | 0 | 26.7 | 21.7 | 24.4 | -5.3 |
| Sammy Sosa | 10 | 1 | 58.6 | 43.8 | 51.2 | -5.5 |
| Bobby Abreu | 3 | 0 | 60.2 | 41.6 | 50.9 | -5.8 |
| Gary Sheffield | 8 | 0 | 60.5 | 38.0 | 49.3 | -7.4 |
| Tim Hudson | 2 | 0 | 57.9 | 38.3 | 48.1 | -8.7 |
| David Ortiz | 1 | 0 | 55.3 | 35.2 | 45.3 | -8.9 |
| Mark Buehrle | 2 | 0 | 59.1 | 35.8 | 47.4 | -9.4 |
| Andy Pettitte | 4 | 0 | 60.2 | 34.1 | 47.2 | -9.6 |
| Mark Teixeira | 1 | 0 | 50.6 | 38.0 | 44.3 | -9.9 |
| Jeff Kent | 9 | 0 | 55.5 | 35.8 | 45.6 | -11.5 |
| Jimmy Rollins | 1 | 0 | 47.6 | 32.7 | 40.1 | -15.4 |
| Torii Hunter | 2 | 0 | 50.7 | 30.8 | 40.7 | -17.5 |
| Omar Vizquel | 5 | 0 | 45.6 | 26.8 | 36.2 | -19.3 |
As noted, I’ve used my experimental versions of JAWS for pitchers. The workload-adjusted S-JAWS for starters (see here) narrows the margin of those above starters relative to the standard and pushes Schilling past the adjusted peak standard. The leverage-adjusted R-JAWS for relief pitchers (explained here) doesn’t push either Billy Wagner or Joe Nathan past the standards but makes them the top two relievers outside the Hall. While Jonathan Papelbon is closer to that standard in absolute terms (-6.1) than several other candidates are to theirs, his dearth of innings (just 725.2, 20% fewer than Wagner) and lack of support among voters to date almost guarantees he’s one-and-done material, so I’ve excluded him above.
Seven candidates meet or exceed the JAWS standards at their positions, including five who top the career WAR and peak WAR standards as well. All of them make my first-cut list, as do the two players who top only the peak standards. Among those who don’t meet any standards are five players I classify as “candidates of interest,” namely Wagner, Nathan, Bobby Abreu, Gary Sheffield, and Ortiz, players who fall shy on JAWS but about whom I remain open-minded, for reasons explained below.
That’s 14 candidates for a first-cut list; the rest, as far as I’m concerned, are along for the ride for reasons that, if not apparent from the table above, are explained at length in their respective profiles. If you want to know more about why I’m not supporting those particular candidates, I’ve got a few thousand words to that effect you can find via the widget atop the article.
As I’ve said repeatedly throughout this series, when it comes to PED-linked candidates, I distinguish between those whose allegations date to the time when the game had no testing regimen or means of punishment (i.e., prior to 2004) and those that came afterwards. With no means of enforcing a paper ban, and with players flouting such a ban being rewarded left and right amid what was truly a complete institutional failure that implicated the owners, the commissioner, and the players union as well as the players, I simply don’t think voters can apply a retroactive morality to say that a Bonds or a Clemens or a Sosa shouldn’t be in the Hall on that basis alone. I’ve done enough research to believe that this is a reasonable place to start, but there’s no consensus within the electorate over how to handle the issue, and voters’ views on the topic range from zero tolerance to complete indifference. This issue alone is the biggest impediment to a perfect ballot; some of us, voter or bystander, will never agree on how to handle the problem, and no solution will please everybody.
But for one final time, two spots on my ballot go to Bonds, the all-time home run leader, and Clemens, the best pitcher since World War II. As noted within this year’s overview of their candidacies and my previous profiles of the gruesome twosome, the pair has seen their momentum slow since crossing 50% on the 2017 ballot, with Clemens gaining just 7.5% and Bonds 8.0% in the four cycles since; both were just shy of 62% last year. Though they’re both polling at 78.7% from among the 89 ballots published via the Ballot Tracker as of 11:55 pm PST on Wednesday, they’re not flipping enough “no” votes to “yes” votes to maintain that. They’ll be the Today’s Game Era Committee’s problem starting next year.
Based on that same dividing line, I’ve crossed Ramirez and Rodriguez off my list. On a performance-only basis, both would get my vote, and likewise if their failing the supposedly anonymous 2003 survey test were their only PED-related transgression. A-Rod is one of six players with at least 3,000 hits and 500 homers, and he ranks 12th in WAR among all position players, but I can’t overlook his full-season suspension for using PEDs bought from the Biogenesis clinic from 2010-12. Manny’s one of the greatest hitters of all time — his 154 OPS+ ranks 20th among players with at least 7,000 PA — but I still can’t get past the two failed tests, not when better players who never tested positive are being kept out. Maybe I’ll change my mind on this someday, but not this year.
As for Schilling, I included him on most of my virtual ballots even while keeping the receipts for his long list of transgressions. Last year, when the litany expanded to include parroting thoroughly discredited claims of election fraud, calling for the President to declare martial law, and comparing Dr. Anthony Fauci to a Nazi, I left him off my ballot. His open support for the January 6 Capitol rioters doesn’t change that. This isn’t about his politics (as Schilling so often claims), this is about him using his sizable platform to spread hatred, intolerance, and disinformation. That platform will only grow if he’s elected, and I refuse to take part in that. Besides, he asked off the ballot this year, remember? Good riddance.
Moving on, this quartet was on my ballot last year, and at least the last two of my virtual ballots. They’re easy calls to return:
Scott Rolen (10th among third basemen in JAWS, 52.9% in 2021)
An exceptional but under-appreciated player on both sides of the ball, Rolen combined power and patience at the plate with some of the best glove work the hot corner has ever seen. Even in a career that contained numerous injuries and ended at age 37, he ranks third at the position both in fielding runs (+175) and in Gold Gloves (eight) and, depending upon your choice of metric, belongs among the top 10 or 20 hitters for the position as well. Particularly at an underrepresented spot — there are just 15 non-Negro Leagues third basemen in the Hall, compared to 28 right fielders and 19 to 21 at every other position besides catcher — he merits enshrinement.
Since debuting at 10.2% on the 2018 ballot, Rolen has surged, and at this point, he’s polling at 71.4%. That share won’t hold, but I’m hopeful he sets himself up for enshrinement in 2023.
Todd Helton (15th among first basemen in JAWS, 44.9% in 2021)
The 2020 election of former teammate Larry Walker opened up the road to Cooperstown for this denizen of Coors Field. An exceptional hitter who served as the face of the Rockies franchise, Helton put up huge numbers in the first half of his career, numbers that hold up once we adjust for his park and league scoring environment. Injuries caused his late-career fade, as he had just one good season out of his last four, but it’s not out of the question that his time at altitude had something to do with that. His peak score ranks 10th among first basemen, about four wins above the standard, and with the recent election of Gil Hodges, his JAWS is now right at the standard.
After polling at 16.5% in his first year of eligibility, he banked big gains in the past two election cycles, and should cross the 50% threshold this year. Present company excluded, everybody who’s reached that point has been elected eventually, though just as Hodges has exited that caveat, Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling are poised to replace him.
Billy Wagner (6th among relievers in R-JAWS, 46.4% in 2021)
The holder of the all-time records for strikeout rate and opponent batting average, albeit at just an 800-inning threshold, Wagner is short of the admittedly slapdash standard established by the eight enshrined relievers. Since I’ve never been entirely satisfied with how JAWS handles that small group, I’ve remained open-minded, seeking alternate ways to evaluate relievers; by my experimental R-JAWS, which incorporates Win Probability Added (WPA) and situational or context-neutral wins (WPA/LI) as well as WAR, he’s the top reliever outside the Hall, trailing only Mariano Rivera, Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm, Rich Gossage, and Trevor Hoffman. After debuting at 10.5% in 2016 and gaining little ground in the next three cycles, his support has nearly tripled over the past two, and like Helton, he should clear 50% this year.
Andruw Jones (11th among center fielders in JAWS, 33.9% in 2020)
If 2018 Hall of Fame honoree Chipper Jones was the Braves dynasty’s offensive cornerstone, Andruw Jones was its defensive one, an elite fly-chaser who won 10 Gold Gloves and ranks first at the position in fielding runs (+235). He could hit, too, bopping 434 career homers. His career collapsed at age 31, however; he played just 435 games over his final five seasons, disappearing from the majors at age 35, and so while he’s well above the peak standard, he’s short on the career one and in JAWS. I’m not so bothered by that, given his relative ranking and the fact that the standards in center and right field are a few points higher than every other position. After two years in the mid-7% range, he’s more than quadrupled his support since, and appears to have a shot at eventual election.
That’s six slots filled, and I’ve still got five candidates for four spots. Three of them are guys I voted for last year:
Sammy Sosa (18th among right fielders in JAWS, 17.0% in 2021)
A towering figure in baseball’s return from the 1994 strike, and just the sixth player to reach 600 home runs, Sosa is nonetheless below the bar in JAWS, but above 2018 honoree Vladimir Guerrero (21st at 50.3). That matters more to me than the report that he was on the supposedly anonymous 2003 survey test, which as noted above, belongs to the “Wild West” era before the game had a coherent PED policy. What’s more, commissioner Rob Manfred basically disavowed it in the context of celebrating Ortiz, on the grounds that some disputed results were never resolved because the threshold to implement testing had been reached. That doesn’t mean Sosa was clean, but if MLB couldn’t penalize him, I’m not going to.
Other voters haven’t been so charitable. Sosa’s share of the vote has been lower than any of the big PED-linked sluggers besides Rafael Palmeiro, the first star to fail a test, and while he’s set new highs in each of the past two cycles after six straight years in the single digits, his candidacy looks like a lost cause.
Bobby Abreu (20th among right fielders in JAWS, 8.7% in 2021)
A five-tool player with dazzling speed, a sweet left-handed stroke, and enough power to win a Home Run Derby, Abreu was a stathead favorite thanks to his otherworldly plate discipline. He posted on-base percentages of .400 or higher eight times (.395 for his career) thanks to his ability to take a walk (100 or more eight years in a row). Yet despite routinely reaching traditional seasonal plateaus — a .300 batting average (six times), 20 homers (nine times), 30 steals (six times), 100 runs scored and batted in (eight times apiece) — he was ridiculously under-appreciated by the mainstream, making just two All-Star teams and winning one Gold Glove. He barely scraped by in his 2020 ballot debut with 5.5% but gained a bit of breathing room last year.
Gary Sheffield (23rd among right fielders in JAWS, 40.6% in 2021)
There’s no denying Shef’s skill with the stick. His total of 561 batting runs above average (the offensive component of bWAR) ranks 29th all-time, while his 140 OPS+ is tied for 48th; he’s either alongside or ahead of numerous no-doubt Hall of Famers in those categories, and to that he added an aesthetic quality of sheer menace in the batter’s box thanks to his lightning-quick reflexes and violent swing. It’s his defense (-195 runs, second-lowest all time ahead of only Derek Jeter), not his BALCO connection or his penchant for controversy — two areas that require some digging in order to get a full and fair picture — that kept me from putting too much stock in his candidacy, as it knocks him below 50 JAWS, and nearly eight points below the position standard. Yet I’m troubled by the extent to which those outlying defensive stats, which date to the pre-batted-ball-type era, nuke Sheffield’s value, and that goes double when they’re compared to his defensive numbers via alternative methodologies. What’s more, it’s worth noting that 65% of his plate appearances came in the NL, where he didn’t have the chance to serve as a DH. In 2020, I found room for him on my virtual ballot, and last year, he made the actual one. Other voters have been of similar mind, as his support, which meandered in the low teens from 2015-19, nearly tripled in the span of two cycles.
Collectively this trio went 1-for-15 on my virtual ballots, largely but not entirely due to crowding on the ballot. The lone vote went to the lowest-ranked player in terms of JAWS, though Sheffield is by far the best of the three offensively in terms of both OPS+ (Abreu and Sosa finished at 128) and batting runs (both are over 200 behind Sheffield), right on par with the two right fielders elected in recent years, Guerrero (140) and Walker (141) — but maintained over nearly 2,000 more PA than the former and nearly 3,000 PA more than the latter.
That leaves two newcomers in their first years of eligibility:
Joe Nathan (7th among relievers in R-JAWS)
Like Wagner, Nathan fares better via R-JAWS than by traditional JAWS. He’s short on innings (923.1, just 20.1 more than Wagner) because he didn’t stick in the majors as a reliever until age 28, and missed nearly three full seasons due to shoulder surgery (labrum and rotator cuff) and two Tommy Johns. But he’s hardly short of high-impact innings, which is why he’s fifth in WPA among pitchers who made at least half their appearances as relievers, and seventh in R-JAWS, just below Wagner. Among pitchers who faced at least 1,500 hitters in high-leverage situations (aLI > 1.5), his .592 OPS against (.200/.280/.312) is the lowest. While not as dominant as Wagner or Mariano Rivera, he did a very Rivera-like job over the 2003-13 stretch, posting a 2.24 ERA, 2.57 FIP and 30% strikeout rate while notching 340 of his 370 saves. Like Wagner, Nathan’s postseason work wasn’t much to write home about, but we’re talking about 10 innings spread over six series, of which only two saw him throw more than a single inning; it’s tough to ding him for such small samples.
David Ortiz (29th among first basemen in JAWS)
Because he spent 88% of his career as a designated hitter, and the rest as a subpar first baseman, Ortiz doesn’t fare very well in WAR or JAWS; he’s about 13 WAR behind 2019 honoree Edgar Martinez in the former, and down six points of OPS+ as well (147 to 141). Those metrics don’t capture his central role in helping the Red Sox become a powerhouse, or the value of his postseason accomplishments. While there’s no magically correct answer as to how to weight his .455/.576/.795 in 59 PA spread over three World Series — all victories — or his .289/.404/.543 with 17 homers in 369 PA for all the postseason, those are impressive numbers against top-flight competition, and he produced some indelible highlights while compiling them. He also set numerous counting stat records for DHs, and has only Martinez as a rival for the position’s best ever.
When I wrote about Ortiz’s career for The Cooperstown Casebook in 2017, I didn’t envision voting for him on the basis of WAR and JAWS, but I’ve softened that stance with regards to several candidates.
In the end, the ballot status and current shares of the vote for this quintet offers a clear solution. Nathan has netted just one vote (!) from among the 89 ballots published in the Tracker, and while I’ve been led to believe more are coming for him via as-yet-unpublished ballots, it’s clear that he needs all the help he can get even to remain in the discussion. If I’m not fully convinced he’s a Hall of Famer, I’m 100% certain he deserves a longer look, and so he gets my vote.
Abreu, at 12.4% on the published ballots, is probably safe from slipping below 5%, but he needs my vote if he’s ever to escape the ballot’s basement. Sheffield, a personal favorite who is building momentum among voters (he’s at 44.9% in the Tracker), gets a spot as well.
So it all comes down to my 10th spot. Ortiz is polling at 82.0%, the highest of any candidate, which strongly suggests he’ll get into the Hall sooner or later, with or without my vote. Jason Sardell, whose probabilistic model has yielded the best election projections of anyone around, projected Ortiz with a 57% chance of getting in through the first 80 ballots received; by his model, nobody else even has a 0.5% chance based upon current returns. In other words, there’s at least a 40% chance of another BBWAA shutout.
If my choice comes down to Ortiz or Sosa, who is in his final year and with just 22.5% clearly isn’t getting to Cooperstown this route (and quite possibly not at all), I’m going with Big Papi. After a year with all Hall festivities postponed due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and then a muted Induction Day this past September, the current forecast for next year’s Induction Weekend calls for a celebration of four deceased individuals (Hodges, Bud Fowler, Minnie Miñoso, and Buck O’Neil) and two who are 83 years old (Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva). For the sake of Cooperstown, I’m happy to help send an honoree whom people younger than 50 years old watched play, and in this case is a real fan favorite.
So that’s my ballot:

I’ll admit I don’t entirely love the way this came out, the extent to which my self-imposed rules prevent me from simply voting for the 10 best players on the ballot. I still think the line I’ve drawn with regards to PEDs is a reasonable one, and I’m entirely at peace with my decision to bypass Schilling.
And I’m not about to lose site of the bigger picture: I’m gratified that after covering baseball and analyzing Hall of Fame elections for so long on the outside, I get to cast a ballot. It’s still just one vote from among roughly 400, less impactful than my work to sway actual voters and help the likes of Walker, Martinez, Tim Raines, Mike Mussina and others find homes in Cooperstown, but it’s also symbolic.
As I said last year, in casting this ballot, I’m standing on the shoulders of giants in the field of baseball analysis, people who entered this industry without going through the traditional newspaper outlets and who either were never admitted to the BBWAA or didn’t last long enough within it to vote. People such as John Thorn, Bill James, Rob Neyer, Joe Sheehan, Christina Kahrl, and Steven Goldman were among those who opened my eyes to different ways of viewing baseball decades ago, and their thoughts on the Hall of Fame and its processes inevitably seeped into my own views of the institution and who is worthy of admission. Of that group, only Kahrl, trailblazer that she is — and not just in the encouragement of self-consciously named acronyms — is a BBWAA voter, and Thorn, now MLB’s official historian, was recently a first-time Era Committee voter. I’d prefer a voting process that found room for all of the above and other experts from beyond the mainstream, but in the meantime, I’ll do my best to represent.
It is with gratitude to those above as well as to too many others to name — though I should also single out past BBWAA presidents La Velle E. Neal III, Jose de Jesus Ortiz, Susan Slusser, and Derrick Goold, all of whom helped me and my Hall expertise find a place within the organization after lobbing so many indelicate critiques from the outside — that I cast this ballot. As in 2020, its arrival has served as a light at the end of the tunnel of a difficult and trying year, and in sending it off, I hope that it lends itself to celebration.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
I appreciate the time and effort that you put into your ballot Jay. And your willingness to share your thought process and your attempt to be consistent in your process.
I also want to say that I don’t envy HOF voters. While tools like WAR have made it easier to determine who put together a HOF career, the fact that we now know so much more about players’ lives than we used to makes it so much more difficult to determine who actually deserves the honor of being a Hall of Famer.
Love the inclusion of Sheffield. He deserves to at least get a long look on the ballot, and whenever I mull him over I go back to Edgar Martinez (who is in) and Dick Allen (who needs to be in). So I’m definitely on the Sheffield HOF bandwagon.
Pretty off-topic, but who do you think would be in there with Sheffield in the “hall of cool-looking idiosyncracies” from the era? Sheffield’s brandishing the bat has to be way up there — maybe the most fun to imitate of any of them. Griffey, Ichiro, Youklis, maybe Batista if “cool” doesn’t require being consistently “good”? I don’t think Bagwell counts because it was physically impossible for anyone but him to do anything athletic from that weird-ass crouch. Try to imitate *that* on a rec field, and you just fall over when you swing, and that isn’t cool-looking.
Those are good choices. To that, I would add Julio Franco and Darryl Strawberry, although Strawberry hit the wall shortly after Sheffield debuted and while Franco was still decent his best years came before Sheffield came into his own.
If you want something that looks plain weird and very memorable but not very cool, I’d add Craig Counsell.
Of all of them, though, Sheffield’s batting stance was the most intense. He was just waiting to demolish that baseball. He couldn’t wait. The hate just seemed to flow out of him. Entertaining as all get out.
If you like this kind of stuff, there’s a person out there who goes by the moniker “Batting Stance Guy” who is very entertaining.
I remember trying to emulate John Wockenfuss’s stance as a kid playing wiffleball. No idea how he didn’t fall over simply waiting for the pitch, much less be a viable major league hitter.
Curious, why would Griffey be in the “hall of cool-looking idiosyncrasies” from the era? He had one of the most beautiful swings, but it’s not an odd swing like Youklis, etc. Robinson Cano, for example, probably had (has) an almost equally looking beautiful swing, while also adding in a slight echo of Rod Carew, another hitter many of a certain age imitated.
Craig Counsell?
The most idiosyncratic of them all.
Oscar Gamble had a really cool batting stance wherein he basically crouched with his face over the plate, that took having a pair, back then they didn’t mind smacking ya in the face with heat, a little before that era. From the 90’s/00’s I always thought Thome and Delgado had pretty cool stances but as far as idiosyncracies is Garciaparra not the king?
Baseball stances back in those days were way more interesting. They’re homogenized today.
Mark McGwire’s pigeon-toed stance and minimal follow-through. McGriff’s twirl at the end of his follow-through (and Emansky videos). Rickey’s stance was harder than Bagwell’s; he crouched with most of his weight on his back leg. The Charlie Lau/Walt Hriniak swing (Frank Thomas/Robin Ventura/others). Beltre taking a knee mid-swing.
Add Alex Johnson to the list. He was never great but with his speed and odd bat placement, he was fun to watch.
Cal Ripken, Jr. famously changed his stance multiple times, sometimes in the same game, and Thomas Boswell described one of them as being like a tripod about to fall over.
I’ve adopted the Tony Batista stance at slow-pitch softball with predictably terrible results
Thanks for all the work you’ve done Jay.
Hall of Juice. Laughable ballot. What a sham this all is.
Boy you showed him. Keeping all those greenie users and wife-beaters in there or is your outrage highly selective?
There is zero comparison to what amphetamines can do for your performance compared to the science of modern PEDs. You have no clue. That ballot is a joke. I know that you all like Jay, but this is a disgrace
What exactly do you think PEDs enabled players to achieve?
Recovery and longevity are the benefits of PEDs. I can see leaving PED guys with borderline cases out because PEDs may have allowed them to extend their careers to achieve numbers worthy of the hall but Bonds and Clemens were already HoFers by their early 30s PEDs or not.
ARod too but the suspension hurts his case a bit more.
@joe15…there were more 50 homer seasons in the ten year span of ped than all the previous years combined. but yeah, ped’s didn’t help anyone
What PED makes you hit a home run
Almost all of them. Whatever improves your ability to increase your strength.
Exactly. They all hit the ball harder and walk less and people act like they don’t help. Clearly improved bat speed is a game changer and PEDs are going to impact this most.
@tuna411
Between 1990 and 2001 there were two seasons, 1998 and 2001, when there were four hitters with 50 or more home runs. In 1998, there were 13 hitters with 40 or more home runs. In 2001, there were 12 hitters with 40 or more home runs.
In 2008, a somewhat more credible program of random testing was instituted by the league, at long last. In 2013, in-season HGH blood testing was added, and in 2014 the penalties were increased to 80 games for a first violation and 162 for a second, with forfeiture of the entire year’s salary.
In 2019, when Alonso hit 53 home runs, there were 10 hitters with 40 or more home runs.
In 1998, a total of 5,064 home runs were hit in the league.
In 2001, a total of 5,458 home runs were hit in the league.
In 2019, a total of 6,776 home runs were hit in the league.
Of course PEDs help. That’s why their called “performance-enhancing” and why they’re banned.
The truth is, neither you nor anyone else knows how many players on either side of the ball were juicing in the past or are juicing now.
Victor Conte of BALCO said the tests were so easy to beat that “only the dumb and the dumber” got caught.
So you can luxuriate in your selective outrage if you wish, but you shouldn’t kid yourself that you’re approximating anything like justice.
My last typo of 2021: ‘That’s why their called “performance-enhancing” and why they’re banned.’
Make that: ‘they’re called “performance-enhancing.”‘
Bat speed, bat speed, and bat speed. Ever notice how how their power goes up and their strike outs go down? They can wait an extra millisecond because they have improved their bat speed. Thanks for playing
Bonds and Clemens destroyed the statistical historical thread of baseball which makes it a superior game to all others played in this country.
The addition of 4 expansion teams in 5 years and the resultant talent dilution had far more to do with the offense increasing than PEDs did.
Unless, of course, you discovered who exactly did what PED when and how much your bicep size correlates with batted ball distance.
Steroids increase the speed of the twitch muscle response. This is well known. What’s not well known, or even known at all, is how many players, both hitters and pitchers, were using when use was rampant; or, for that matter, how many are using now.
Additionally, your notion of a consistent “statistical historical thread of baseball” is a fantasy, so much has changed since the 19th century: e.g., the construction of the baseballs; the legality and then illegality of the spitball; the use of the same ball for entire games; changes in the strike zone (until 1886, the batter “called” his pitch, asking the pitcher for a low or a high ball, each with its own strike zone); catching a ball on a bounce counted as an out; the switch from underhand to overhand pitches; the distance from the mound to home plate; the height of the mound; the addition of body armor (catchers originally had none, and baseball gloves weren’t mentioned in the official rules until 1895); the addition of batting helmets; the creation of the designated hitter; pitch counts and the increased use of relief pitchers; the increased use of defensive shifts; changes in the length of the season; etc.
All of these things impacted the game to some degree, some more than others.
Edit to nada
Your reductionism might be the disgrace.
“There is zero comparison to what amphetamines can do for your performance compared to the science of modern PEDs. You have no clue.”
It appears that you don’t.
Why do you think clubs had two pots of coffee in the clubhouse — one regular, and one laced with amphetamines — as described by Brian McRae of the Royals?
“I had to make sure I got the unleaded,” McRae said.
Why do you think greenies were as common as candy in the clubhouses?
“I don’t want to say guys are addicted, but it’s like putting on your uniform. You have your glove, your batting gloves, your bat, you take your greenie and you’re ready to go.”
—Chipper Jones (quoted in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)
Why do you think so many players today have gotten Special Use Exemptions to use Adderall, an amphetamine?
Why do you think the World Anti-Doping Agency, the IOC, the NCAA, the UFC, MLB and the NFL ban amphetamines?
I mean, Lars Anderson agrees.
He took greenies before an Australian league game and it was apparently wayyy more helpful than adding strength would have been.
“There is zero comparison to what amphetamines can do for your performance compared to the science of modern PEDs.”
Ah, so cheat all you like as long as it doesn’t help you play baseball. Got it. That’s an…..interesting angle.
Please point to which players did and did not use any performance enhancing drugs, to include dbol, tren, clen, anavar, RAD140, caffeine or creatine, at any point in their careers.
We’ll be waiting.
Caffeine and creatine? Come on man
Tylenol, Gatorade, literally anything that enhances performance. Boomer brainlets have no clue what any drugs did or didn’t do, or who did or didn’t use them. That’s the point.
We don’t know what they do? What are you smoking?
It’s one thing to know what a drug does in the weight room. It’s not so clear cut on the baseball diamond. Simply increasing strength does not come without drawbacks in a fast twitch anaerobic sport where the other guy gets to interact with you.
Hitting a baseball isn’t hitting the squat rack.
Men of a certain age bracket, will not rest until THE STARS of their personal “baseball era” are included…regardless of what those players did to achieve their status.
While men of a different age bracket will trot out the “back in my day…” and try to parse how their stars were pure as the driven snow while railing against those kids these days…
Jeff Novitzky is the federal agent who went through the trash outside the BALCO gym in his pursuit of incriminating evidence against Barry Bonds. He also went after Clemens, and he went after Lance Armstrong.
Google: “I Investigated Bonds and Clemens. Yes, They Belong in Cooperstown.”
It’s his essay setting out the reasons why he thinks they belong in the Hall. If you consider yourself a fair-minded person, read what the most dogged investigator of the Steroids Era has to say.
Well done, sir. Thanks for the serious consideration you put into it.
I really think voter, including yourself, need to re-evaluate starting pitchers over the past 30 years. Guys like Pettitte, Hudson, and Buehrle deserve votes and induction. I don’t think any of them would have been traded straight up for Wagner or Nathan. Teams know what’s more valuable to winning
Of the three you mentioned, I only think Pettitte deserves to be voted in. I know that Jay won’t due to the PED’s but of all the PED users, he deserves the closest inspection.
By his ballot, PEDs certainly won’t be what holds him back. He has Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield and Ortiz on his ballot. He has attempted to come up with a new formula for modern starting pitching, but Hudson, Buehrle and Pettitte still come up short.
Jay’s a 40-something Yankees fan.
If he could find a way to justify Pettitte, he would.
Pettitte was a player I loved to root for but he was not a HOF pitcher. Though he came up big on some important games (and he lost some big games too) he was the staff ace only once in his career.
I appreciate the deep thought you put into it but man, seeing Joe Nathan and Billy Wagner get a vote while Buehrle, Hudson and Pettitte don’t is just ridiculous to me. The rest is very much fair and I understand the arguments for all ballplayers involved.
I think Pettitte definitely, but not as keen on your other two examples.
The three of them are virtually identical in terms of bWAR and JAWS. Pettitte has a minor edge in K total and obviously the teams he played for resulted in him getting more October reps.
Buehrle has the 200 IP streak, WS save, no-no, perfecto, and rep as the most efficient pitcher of his era along with some GG and ASG nods.
Hudson might have the weakest case despite his lower ERA/better ERA+.
But ultimately all three are about as statistically similar as it’s possible for pitchers to be.
By innings, ERA-, and bWAR, they are all 3 very close. However, Pettitte is ahead in fWAR 68 to 51 and 50, because his FIP- is 83 compared to 90 and 93. It is possible Pettitte could have had much better run prevention without Jeter and Bernie’s subpar defense.
Also, Pettitte’s 276 quality postseason innings is probably the equivalent of another 5-6 WAR season even if you weight it the same as the regular season. Yes, he only had the opportunity because the Yankees were good, but he was still available and pitched well and added more wear and tear on his arm. No player is completely in control of how many opportunities they get, but we still judge them based on how they did. Maybe another team wouldn’t have called up A-Rod as an 18 year old. Or maybe another team wouldn’t have hit Ichiro leadoff, so he wouldn’t have had as many plate appearances, but they still deserve credit based on what they actually did.
If you are going to credit Pettite for bad defense you have to do the same for Buehrle. Except for him, some of those White Sox teams were largely atrocious defensively and he was a pitch-to-contact guy.
As Zobrist stated, Pettitte is substantially ahead in fWAR and likely would hen further ahead without some seriously lacking defense behind him.
And the October stuff, you can’t just hand wave away. He pitched very well in the postseason. While yes, he was on a great team that was constantly in October, he was part of that team that got there…and he performed when he was there.
Yeah, I don’t understand those who don’t want to include Pettitte’s additional work in the postseason as part of his evaluation. I believe it’s coming from the Buehrle supporters, as they’ll note Buehrle didn’t have the opportunity Pettitte had for the postseason. Sure, but that simply means we can’t include additional postseason innings and more big moments in his evaluation, while we can for Pettitte. We also have to give Pettitte some brownie points for being a key component of a dynasty, and helping the Yankees win multiple titles.
This is not a competition between Pettitte and Buehrle. Supporters of both should be rooting for the other guy to get elected, because that would help their cause!
Baseball Reference rates the defense behind Pettitte’s as -0.07 runs/9 for his career which is a tick better than Buehrle’s (-0.08). So while there are some individual seasons where he suffered from poor defense, overall the effect was negligible.
Jay–just think, in about five years you’ll get to vote for Nick Markakis. I am looking forward to your article explaining the highlights of his career and rigorously evaluating his case.
Honestly, for me the biggest surprise in this whole article is that voting can’t be done online.
Shouldn’t be – it’s an old museum run by old dudes. Technology is of the devil; it angries the blood.
“[I]t angries the blood” legit made me LOL. Automatic thumbs-up for that.
I don’t agree with everything, but I think this is a reasonable ballot. However, I really dislike strategic voting, such as voting for Nathan so he gets a chance to remain and choosing not to vote for Sosa on the basis he won’t get in anyway.
I’m ok with everything else.
If there wasn’t a 10-player limit, there wouldn’t be a need for strategic voting.
Can’t blame him for that really, if there wasn’t idiotic rules about 10 player max, it wouldn’t be a problem
I don’t think I buy Sheffield’s story on steroids anymore. I used to be about 75/25 on believing it, and now I’m about 25/75. This doesn’t matter so much for Jay since he was never caught, but it would if you’re excluding PEDs candidates.
If you buy his story on PEDs, that he only took it for one year and didn’t know what he was doing, then he’s clearly a deserving candidate. He compares very well to Edgar Martinez, and he produced more value than Ortiz. He was also probably a better player than Sosa too, if you happen to be considering Sosa.
To believe him you just have to believe that Barry didn’t spill the beans about what he was taking which, given the paranoia surrounding the subject at the time, I don’t find all that difficult to believe. So I suppose I’m about 55-45 on believing him.
I find it highly improbable that he didn’t know what he was using, these finely tuned athletes generally know EVERYTHING that goes in there body even if it did come from other players. It’s also not like Sheffield is some kind of meek man, he wasn’t a wallflower that wasn’t/isn’t capable of being outspoken, he had an ego (didn’t he act as his own agent?) and I can’t see him just accepting Bonds not telling him what’s going in his body. I didn’t buy his story then and I don’t buy his story now but I’d also vote for him to be in the HoF, he was fun to watch.
I dont think manny knew he was taking stuff tbf
I could see Manny not wanting to know what he was taking
By that logic, if Sheffield took more peds than he says, he wouldn’t be a wallflower about talking about that either. I mean, he hasn’t tried very hard to be beloved. He’s one of the best hitters ever – to keep him out of the Hall, I think you need to be 95% sure he cheated.
Why? Some new evidence come up? Or just thinking that his story sounds far fetched after reconsideration?
On some level, the story itself is believable–a lot of the details match up with the reporting in Game of Shadows. It just may not be the whole story, because there is some evidence (in the form of calendars) that Sheffield was injected based on the reporting in Game of Shadows. But the calendars may have been for the cream and the clear? I don’t know for sure.
Here’s why Sheffield’s story is very believable to me – he voluntarily came clean both in court and to a journalist about it as soon as he found out what that shit was. No attempt to hide it, no beating around the bush, no “not talking about the past.” Just “yeah, I used that shit and I’m fucking pissed, they told me it was vitamins or some shit.”
Not that peoples kids should have any bearing on hof worthiness, but I can’t help but think Gary Sheffield Jr isn’t doing his dad any favors right now
While I understand your reasoning RE: Schilling, you are voting for him based on his play on the field. This is not about anything else he’s done. This is why people hate that the BBWWAA have the sole authority on HOF voting.
A) The character clause exists, so your premise is wrong. B) he asked people not to vote for him, so he can go be happy he got what he wanted, and C) who are these “people” you speak of? I don’t think there’s as much hatred as you think. Mild discontentment disappearing swiftly, at best
I’m fine with Jay’s rationale, but it’s obviously about his politics, contrary to Jay’s own statement in the piece.
People really need to stop with this BS. Being a terrorist isn’t politics. Stealing from taxpayers isn’t politics either.
Calling for martial law, arrests of the political opposition and support of violent attempt to overturn an election … might be a bit further than just politics.
Schilling never called for an overtthrow of the governement. See it is you spreading those lies.
No. He actually did support the overthrow of the government, along with supporting the murdering of journalists, and a whole lot of other things for his entire career, because from Day One, Curt Schilling was a selfish pr**k.
If you don’t care about all the sh**ty stuff he has done, that’s fine. But stop acting like Curt Schilling is this innocent victim. He has ASKED FOR everything he’s receiving.
He supported the Jan 6 rioters, who were trying to overturn the election. YOU decided to insert overturn the government and then argue with your semantical change. You were strangely silent on the whole martial law/arrest political opponents. Why?
Does it bother you that our Vice President Harris supported the rioters in Minnesota in 2020? I doubt it. It seems that you on the Left cherry pick your outrage.
Here’s his tweet that gets him effectively banned from the HOF: “You cowards sat on your hands, did nothing while liberal trash looted rioted and burned for air Jordan’s and big screens,”
This is not supporting rioting. Clearly he is making a point about the Capitol riots vs the 2020 rioting.
Jay completely contradicts himself. Support for Jan 6 rioters (for example) is a political position, and that’s a reason Jay cites as not supporting his entry. Then Jay says it’s not about politics. I think what Jay is saying is that he’s not opposing Schilling because he has right wing politics, but because he has dangerous, extremist, right wing politics. Which ok, fair enough, but that’s still about politics.
At some point we have to consider things from a moral perspective. Dangerous, extremist politics are anti-moral. Using the word “politics” cheapens this and normalizes it.
I mean we should consider all political issues from a moral perspective. IMO support for the Iraq war for example, or our involvement in the civil war in Yemen, is/was deeply immoral. It’s still politics.
By your logic the 9-11 attackers were only about a different political point of view.
The “people” should probably should hate the Vets committee more because they make worse decisions like putting Baines in there. I’m not a big fan of the character clause being invoked, because i think it’s done far too often. But I think schilling is getting what he wanted for Christmas since he asked them to not vote for him.
Schilling is a total lunatic, and nobody should have any interest in giving him a platform to spread his psychotic political views, such as a hall of fame acceptance speech.
A defy you to quote anything Schilling has said that is psychotic or supports terrorists or anything like that. You believe the left-wing lies.
No, Barry, you believe right-wing lies:
‘In 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…”’
The thing about Twitter, Barry, is that people can record what you post there, so there’s a permanent record.
Schilling is a seditious loon.
BTW, the above quote is from a Forbes essay by Maury Brown in which Brown opines that the BBWAA should NOT allow voters to amend their ballots because of Schilling’s treasonous lunacy.
Left wing lies…… when his own words called for martial law. Funny
Unplug yourself from Facebook and Fox, Barry. You’re so deep in the cult you don’t even realize it.
After reading Sheryl Ring’s article about Clemens’ illegal sexual “relationship” with a minor, I find it hard to support any vote for Clemens.
This may be more personal to me than anything, but I think it’s worthwhile to share.
I have supported all PED-related candidates for the Hall of Fame and just generally said, “I don’t care about off-the-field issues.” However, I was horrified by Omar Vizquel’s conduct and wanted the Dodgers to be rid of Trevor Bauer as soon as possible this year. I realized at some point this year that I had a logical disconnect there.
I pondered the disconnect for some time and came to the conclusion that I was so annoyed by PED moralizing that I was turning a blind eye to things like Clemens’s alleged statutory rape and/or grooming of a teenager and many players’ domestic abuse allegations so that I could still support everyone accused of PED use.
After much thought, I have come to the conclusion that with the current set-up for the Hall of Fame, when someone has done something objectionable off-the-field,* the consideration should be whether that person no longer deserves to enjoy the fruits of being elected while alive. It’s reasonable to have differing opinions about where that line should be drawn, and while I think such a discussion would not be fun at all, I think it’s better to have that discussion than what we have now, which seems to be that we basically discount someone’s WAR based on how egregious the conduct is, an exercise that is at-best crass and gross.
The committee voters (in whatever form) in recent years have shown a real (albeit probably unintentional) propensity for waiting until someone dies to let them in, and that actually strikes me as a reasonable thing to do with someone who has done something terrible–don’t let them get up on a stage but then acknowledge their playing greatness once they are unable to directly profit from it. It’s not what the Hall of Fame is seemingly doing right now (frankly, the era committees’ decisions rarely make much sense at all to me), but I think it would be a good way to deal with many of these players.
*I consider cheating to be an on-the-field issue. PEDs are therefore an on-the-field issue, and not something I would consider in the same way. It’s arguable that I am still engaging in motivated reasoning, but I don’t think so. I can see at least a reasonable argument to treat it the same way as clearly off-the-field allegations like those against Clemens or Vizquel, but I think that is a different discussion than the one with which I am engaging in this post.
This is what gets me. If you hate Schilling for his terroristic support of extremists, and stealing from Rhode Island taxpayers, enough to exclude him, you’d think including a statutory rapist would exclude Clemens.
Jay is responsible for the Tim Raines crime — you heard it here first, folks! (jk or am I)
I wrote this in the comments last year, but the blindspot you show in regards to Bonds/Clemens character vs Schilling is glaring.
By removing Schilling for his character but keeping Bonds/Clemens, whether intended or not, you are making a judgement on morals and which actions are morally disqualifying. Removing Schilling says “Bigoted Political Statements” crosses the line, which is a reasonable position to take.
However, including Bonds/Clemens at the same times says, even if it was unintentionally, that domestic violence and abuse is not disqualifying.
This is the problem I have with most of the writers using the character clause, they aren’t providing a consistent moral framework that can be applied consistently. So we end up with a wonderful Hall of Fame writer in Jay Jaffe, and I don’t mean that sarcastically, dude is the GOAT when it comes to the hall, unintentionally saying that domestic violence and abuse are non-disqualifying but bigoted political beliefs are.
I don’t think your discomfort with Bonds and Clemens is misplaced. Don’t forget Andruw, too.
But, I do think there is always going to be subjectivity in the standard, unless you were willing to be very specific and define character clause violations as only occurring upon conviction of a crime, or something. In Schilling’s case, I think many of us have reached the conclusion that his actions are a degree worse than, say, Chipper Jones tweeting about Sandy Hook being a hoax and then quickly apologizing for it (super bad in its own right). I’m personally comfortable with accepting these things will require a subjective determination about the relative egregiousness of behavior and the relative levels of proof of the behavior because I think the alternative is too constricting.
I agree it is subjective, my issue is Jaffe doesn’t reckon with that subjectivity at all with Bonds or Clemens. There is no mention of their character clause issues. It is hard to say what Jaffe’s standards are when it is unclear if he even knows or considered the DV/Abuse issues related to Bonds/Clemens respectively.
That is why I call it a blindspot. Jaffe has written paragraphs about Schilling’s character issues but very little about those two aforementioned players.
TBF, the full write-ups have rather more than this summary document does.
yeah, but if it’s about bring lines, I’d rather not have so much focus on “bad/offensive political stuff he said/tweeted instead of just focusing on one or two bright red lines.
As someone who has worked in domestic violence, that’s a more complicated situation. The most important thing with any domestic violence or abuse is to end the violence or abuse, to break the cycle that people are often caught in. Doing that often requires us rethinking what justice demands for a particular situation.
Overly punitive punishments for offenders generally backfire, making victims more reluctant to come forward and less likely to seek help because they are often reliant on their abusers. In some cases, it can make the situation worse. For many in a domestic violence situation, having the offender lose a job often makes it harder to escape the situation due to financial insecurity.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t care. I am saying that if we care about ending the violence and abuse and making sure that people get the help that they need, then for all but except for the worst offenders and reoffenders it shouldn’t be disqualifying.
I love coming to these articles for the comments. It is always fun to see the way different people think. I personally would think voting for the best players would be the easiest way to do it. I realize there is a moral clause, but how difficult it is to use, and how people haphazardly pick and choose when to use it strikes me as wrong. So if I had a vote I would simply disregard it.
That is also how I view DV but I don’t think that really applies to the argument about getting an award.
There is no job that comes with being elected to the Hall of Fame. It is an honor, like getting a key to the city. I don’t think it is overly punitive for abusers to not receive an honor (Versus losing their livelihood)
This is especially true with Clemens where, sadly, the person he abused has passed so there is no risk of him causing more harm to the victim.
TLDR: I agree with your mindset but think its being wrongly applied here.
You are setting up all moral issues as being equal and I disagree with the premise. Hall of Fame voter is required to make judgements and these judgements on moral issues will not easily reduce to a mathematical formula. I don’t condone slapping your wife, but I view calling for martial law and the arrest of the political opposition as far worse. That’s my personal view and I am ok with someone else putting a different weight on these two things. I am one inch short of not caring about Clemens peds, but the Mccready issue is disqualifying. Again, that’s my personal view. I don’t have an issue with a Hall of Fame voter making their own decisions.
There’s a critical factor between Bonds/Clemens versus Schilling. Bonds and Clemens are clearly no-doubt-about-it HOF’ers.
Curt Schilling is a BORDERLINE HOF’er, but he is a DEFINITE, FIRST BALLOT, HOF A-HOLE.
If that were what was on the ballot, it would be unanimous.
Yes to the PED users, no to Schilling. This guy’s ballot is a complete joke.
“That off-season, the authors write, he began what became a massive doping regimen involving years of use and a cornucopia of drugs. The transformation was like nothing that ever has happened in the game. Through 1998 Bonds averaged one home run every 16.1 at bats. Since then he has hit home runs almost twice as frequently–one every 8.5 at bats. The seven best home run frequency rates of Bonds’s career all have come in the seven seasons since the authors say he began his steroid use. Remember, we’re talking about a player who turned 35 years old in the first season that the authors say he played while using steroids. At an advanced baseball age, Bonds has played better than at any other time in his career.”
What an insult to the players who played the game clean. There is absolutely NO excuse for cheating, and NO mental gymnastics you can do in order to justify it.
Answer honestly: would you be as enthusiastic in your defense of Schilling if he had the EXACT same career but was a poster child of the liberal left?
Answer honestly: would schilling already be in the hall of fame ” if he had the EXACT same career but was a poster child of the liberal left?” [aka the same type of person but channels his impulses towards partisan hackery that Keith Olbermann would endorse rather than ones that Sean Hannity would endorse].
The problem is that the answer seems to obviously be yes. The “lynching” retweet would be conceptualized as cursing out political enemies instead of a call for violence and a lot of other stuff would ignored or perhaps even praised as insightful (due to flattering prejudices). People really protest too much about the Schilling stuff not being “about politics” even if that’s insufficient as an explanation.
The problem with your thought experiment is that anyone who made jokes about lynching and advocated for anti-democratic actions would not be a poster child of the liberal left. This thought experiment literally does not exist in the context of US politics. It does in other countries, so the equivalent of that would be lobbying the US government on behalf of Daniel Ortega or something.
Schilling called for martial law and arrest of opposition leaders. Doesn’t matter left wing or right wing. Totally beyond the pale.
Eat a Snickers, bud.
Part of the problem is in the days before rigorous testing (and some people may argue we’re still in these days) then how do we know who was doping and who wasn’t.
Sure, we have the obvious ones, where their bodies changed dramatically. But there will have been others, who didn’t undergo a dramatic physical transformation. Remember, Dee Strange-Gordon got busted for PED use – and he is about as far away from the image of a guy on steroids (to my mind at least).
Yep. Some people make obvious changes, but I’m sure there are plenty of hall of famers who weren’t even on the steroids radar because they didn’t bulk up, or play into our ideas of what a steroid user looked like.
It’s not a joke, it’s his ballot he’s worked his entire career for. Of course it’s biased and subjective. Nothing in earning the right to vote requires voters to remain objective. They can vote for who they want. You can see strong bias in Jays write ups, the way he framed things, what he did and didn’t choose to mention about a persons past, and how he mentioned it. And I think that is completely ok, if not to be expected. It’s his dang vote! The only thing I think we can ask for and expect is that he takes it seriously, and Jay is the best at that. Blank ballots, short ballots, spite ballots and the like are the issue, not Jay voting for his guys.
Perfectly correct, sir.
I’ll never understand dropping Schilling from the ballot due to his bad tweets, but being OK with Clemens grooming a minor and Bonds/Jones’s domestic violence claims. Such a weird line to draw.
Words vs deeds.
These days hurt feelings matter more than hospital visits.
I don’t understand why ARod doesn’t get your vote but the ephebophile Clemens does.
The Hall of Fame is lame.
I do not personally believe what Curt Schilling believes about the election or the Jan 6 riots. But I know people who do. 20-30% of the country does, depending on the poll.
Roger Clemens had a sexual relationship with a minor who led a traumatized life and ultimately killed herself. I don’t think that 20-30% of the country would agree that this is acceptable human behavior.
The selective morality of Hall voters continues to undermine the concept of a baseball museum. I can appreciate Jay Jaffe, the writer, for his incredible talents while still shaking my head at Jay Jaffe, the Hall of Fame voter, who agreed to be responsible for a museum and is now selectively judging the moral acts of the artists (e.g. the players) through his own lens rather than society’s overall moral lens. Because our society includes people who both agree and disagree with Curt Schilling’s off-field behavior. And he’s clearly far more deserving of Cooperstown enshrinement considering the baseball lens alone than multiple players on this ballot.
“There were very fine people on both sides” – this guy, probably.
Just because 20-30% of people believe something that, in and of itself, makes it immune to criticism? 20-30% of people don’t believe the earth is round. Back in the 1950s when a large percentage of the population believed segregation was good, that was cool? And at what percentage point does this no longer apply? If 5% of people believe it, is it cool? Cause there is some REALLY effed up shit that 5% of people believe.
I don’t understand what in my post warranted an attack, and referring to as a probable Trumpy is an attack in my eyes. And a weak one. But it’s the internet so feel free to speculate away and toss the word “probably” on the end to give you some coverage.
Trump’s despicable. Nuff said.
But not everyone agrees with that sentiment. I live in an area where he is reviled and work in an are where he is celebrated.
Either way, I stand by my oft-repeated point that was made by others in this thread more directly and eloquently. Violent actions and actions against children… CHILDREN… are way more despicable and indicative of moral character than words, especially words in the echo chamber cesspool of Twitter.
Your mileage may vary, and I respect that.
You know when Trump made the “very fine people” comment, he precluded if by specifically saying “I’m not talking about White Supremecists and racists”, so it is you continuing to spread a viscious lie about our former POTUS.
The problem is the exact opposite of your framing. The problem is that 20%-30% believe it. If 2-3% believed it, it wouldn’t be such a big deal.
I’m not in favor of inducting Clemens because I don’t want to reward cheaters, and certainly if those allegations are true I don’t think I or anyone else would want anything to do with him. But if he decided to give a talk all about the love between an adult man and a teenager I think most people would be justifiably repulsed by it and little long-term damage would be done.
The problem in SOCIETY is that 20-30% of people believe it, that’s for sure.
But the fact that 20-30% believe it means Curt Schilling isn’t part of some lunatic fringe. One of those two things, maybe. People are really disillusioned, and a lot of people have bought into a massive misinformation and distortion effort. And enough people have bought into it – including some of my relatives – that I don’t fault anyone for believing in it. I just don’t think it’s a failing of moral character to get taken in a scam, which is what so many of these folks are.
But sex with a minor…. that is a long-agreed upon moral failing in the society I know. Getting taken by a con man is not.
I think that getting conned very often is a moral failure. Overwhelmingly, a con works because the con man (or woman) tells the mark what he or she wants to hear. It merely gives people a rationalization to do ridiculous, stupid, or despicable things. But they were already ridiculous, stupid, or despicable. In the case of the Trump con, despicable is the common thread.
Fangraphs’ writers insistence on including their personal political views (and matter-of-factly sharing their disregard/disdain for the views of millions of baseball fans who happen to disagree with them) is exactly the reason I have yet to purchase a membership on this site.
(And for anybody doubting my sincere interest in financially supporting all that goes into a site like this, I would like to point out that I spent money on the Fangraphs iPhone app (the only app I have ever purchased from the app store) only to have that app get completely unsupported within a year’s time. And I have yet to receive a refund for that purchase.)
So 1) They are allowed to share their political beliefs in articles they publish, freedom of the press and all that.
2) I have literally never heard of any app refunding the customers if it was suddenly unsupported. That is not to say it doesn’t happen, but I would hardly call it a common enough occurrence that a person should expect it.
Love reading through your process. Thank you for your time and effort on not just your own ballot but your impact on others as well.
Of 400 ballots, I wonder how many are identical. I am betting a very rare thing indeed.
I agree with some of the others on Pettitte vs say a Nathan or Wagner.
Love Sheffield on the ballot.
I can see your thinking on the steroids era candidates and don’t think its unreasonable.
Schilling, I could look past his obnoxious behavior if not for the risk of what he’d say in his acceptance speech! I dont put a lot of stock in the character clause but I do think voters probably have an interest in not having the hall embarrassed either.
As always, very interesting!
Just want to echo the disappointment that their is so little discussion of the character clause as it applies to players with credible accusations of domestic violence or other terrible interpersonal behavior. The logic (which I generally agree to) applied to exclude Schilling so as to avoid giving someone a platform to espouse harmful content should also apply to former players who have abused other people. The HOF is an honor, not an entitlement, and honoring someone who deliberately harmed another person to the degree that Clemens did, as well as Bonds, Jones, Vizquel etc, would condone those harmful actions. I would even go a step further to people who make the argument that these issues are often unknown or already enfranchised, and say that the BBWAA or some other body should be able to remove players from the HOF, perhaps any time they have been found guilty, or admitted guilt of specific types of crimes. Induction into the HOF should be a privilege that former players should have to live up to throughout their lives.
Clemens and peds…. don’t care. Clemens and a 15 year old ….. disqualification
My objection to character clause is it is never used to pump up a guy like a Dale Murphy into the HOF. It’s only used inconsistently as a disqualification
Why can athletes, owners, fan & politicians bring politics into sports but sports writers can’t?
Because he disagrees with them, of course!
I would argue that the players who tested positive after 2004 might be more deserving of the HOF since they actually served their punishment.
Good work at doing a difficult thing, dude.
I’ll posit the same question asked above: would you be so, so annoyed at the writer’s seeming position on using politics as a disqualifier if that player’s politics didn’t align with your own? Answer honestly.
I will answer again. He called for martial law and arrest of opposing political leaders. That’s well beyond “just politics “.
Superbly written analysis, intellectually consistent, even though I disagree with many of Jay’s selections.
This is me too. I don’t agree with most of these arguments but I admire the thought put into it.
Where and how can one apply for a BBWAA honorary badge? Can you sell those in the FanGraphs merch shop?
Alice, I hate to break it to you, but politics will always be a part of sports. Sports and politics end up being about people, so they’ll be forever intertwined. See: Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson, the freaking Olympics.
Looking at the HOF tracker, Omar Vizquel may be on track for the largest year-over-year decline ever. 28 net votes lost in 90 ballots thus far.
ETA: Schilling and Pettitte are trending a little lower too, to a far lesser extent. I’m a little surprised at Pettitte, although it’s not a huge decline.
its a shame that Jim Edmonds didn’t make it past the first ballot, he definitely deserved better than that
Lofton too
Jay, thanks as always for your in-depth evaluation of Hall of Fame-eligible players. Whether I agree or disagree is pretty much irrelevant. Your incredibly hard work is greatly appreciated.
The not giving a platform to Schilling argument doesn’t hold water. He’s going to have a platform regardless, at least as long as he’s allowed on social media.
Not voting for Schilling but voting Bonds, Clemens, and Jones despite the awful things they’ve done off the field – rather than just talked about doing – shows a lapse in moral judgement.
For baseball related matters, I don’t understand voting for 2 closers but leaving off Buehrle, Hudson, and Pettitte. Certainly 1 inning pitched isn’t as valuable as 5+
Then there’s the issue of voting Abreu and Sheffield, but not Sosa in his final year, despite them all having roughly the same WAR/JAWS totals. Certainly Sosa should take priority.
Voting for Bonds but not Rodriguez doesn’t make sense either. If you’re voting for someone who cheated their way to 762 home runs, why not vote for someone who cheated to 696 of them? The 2003 cutoff is pretty meaningless, since steroids have been illegal in the MLB since 1990.
Finally how does Jeff Kent not get more support? He’s the only MVP second baseman not in the hall of fame and has 60 offensive WAR. I get he was a bad fielder but he at least played defense unlike Ortiz.
Ballots like this one are probably going to lead to a backlash against the BBWAA in January. Hopefully some rule changes will be in order, and the Today’s Game Ballot will correct for the writer’s blind spots.
nicely written
I thought Jay’s arguments made sense. His last 3 guys in were Nathan/Ortiz/Sosa with Sosa getting a pragmatic boot, Ortiz getting a pragmatic “I don’t want another shutout” boost and Nathan getting a “I want to ensure he’s over 5%” boost because he looks so close to Wagner. You might have gotten an additional paragraph about why Wagner (and thus continuing Nathan’s conversation) over Buehrle/Pettitte but you can find the answer in his individual player roundups.
The interesting question is if Jay’s ballot changes if Nathan was trending towards ~15%
Agreed on every point.
1) There’s been an overcorrection in favor of relief pitchers. There should be special consideration for only playing high leverage situations. But Nathan shouldn’t overshadow Hudson, for example.
2) Schilling vs. Bonds/Clemens/Jones – once you invoke the character clause, you’re responsible for defending it for everyone else. There is a revealed preference here where the writer implicitly thinks bad political opinions are worse than grooming a teenage girl.
3) On “no platforming” Schilling, I’m having a hard time imagining him using his HOF speech to to espouse fringe opinions, even if he is a loudmouth. He might use it to promote ALS care, which is a great cause he’s donated millions for.
I think there is some moral consistency to Jay’s stance on this, though it isn’t well articulated. Certainly, there are many domestic abusers in the Hall. Until roughly the last 20 years it would have been a nonfactor, as long as the player was nice to the press. There just aren’t guys who we can point to and say, “That guy beat his wife and it kept him out of the HoF.” Obviously that’s not great, but it is certainly true.
Conversely, I am not sure any Hall caliber player has ever openly supported an insurrection against the US government, which makes the Schilling situation unique. I also think (hope?) that the Clemens situation is fairly unique and I would not support him either. Obvuously Jay feels differently.
Schilling is an idiot and will always be an idiot.
But if you are going to invoke a “character clause” while voting for a child groomer like Clemens then your morals are broken. You can’t argue that.
This isn’t a defense of schilling. Keep him out. I don’t care.
But if you are going to apply morals to your voting THEN APPLY MORALS TO IT or don’t mention it at all.
Clemens had sexual relations with a 15 year old while he was married with two kids…
A FIFTEEN YEAR OLD.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/11/20/20972682/roger-clemens-mindy-mccready-ped-hall-of-fame-character-clause-mlb-hot-stove
The 15-year-old said they didn’t, with sexual relations happening later when she was of age. Doesn’t matter if you believe it or not. To me it sounds like something you say later to avoid legal problems, but the point is you’re making a definitive statement that was denied by the two.
A real issue here for me is that for basically the first time in the Hall’s history, BBWAA members actually are now embracing the undefined “character” clause as a negative and injecting their own moral views when deciding if what a player did on the baseball field should overridden by off-field activities. Schilling is about to be the first legitimate HOF candidate who is about to be bounced off the ballot because of his Twitter account comments. We have an entirely weird and shifting inconsistent line from BBWAA members on steroid use.
If MLB doesn’t want these players in the HOF they should have put them on the ineligible list. That certainly would have been easy with players like A-Rod and Manny, who failed a test after hard rules were put in place and were suspended. They didn’t. To me, that means judge them on their stats.
It would be nice if either MLB or the HoF took a position.
She never once said it didn’t happen. She said should couldn’t refute anything in the article. As I said, keep schilling out for character. You have a great argument. But at least be consistent and don’t give your vote to a pedophile
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/mindy-mccready-weeps-confirms-affair-roger-clemens-article-1.283955
You obviously didn’t read the article posted or the sourcing within the article.
It was never denied by the two
Yes. It was.
“I can’t refute anything listed in the article”
That is the opposite of a denial
Did you actually read your own link? She’s referring to the original article from the NY Daily News. To wit:
“I cannot refute anything in the story,” a tearful but resolute McCready told the Daily News, which broke the story at midnight Sunday.
The only mention of sexual relations in the original article is Clemens´ lawyer denying that their relationship was of a sexual nature:
“He flatly denies having had any kind of an inappropriate relationship with her,” Hardin said. “He’s considered her a close family friend. … He has never had a sexual relationship with her.”
Now I doubt anyone believes Clemens’ lawyer. But that fact of the matter is that the original NY Daily News article – the one that McCready says she can’t refute – made ZERO claims about when a sexual relationship between the two of them might have begun.
In later articles, McCready claimed that she was actually 16 when they met and that they didn’t have sex until she was 21. Now I have no idea if she’s telling the truth, but you seem to put a lot of value in what she says so I assume that you agree with her.
This
Well done Jay. This is always the best and most thoughtful writing of the off season.
“The leverage-adjusted R-JAWS for relief pitchers (explained here) doesn’t push either Billy Wagner or Joe Nathan past the standards but makes them the top two relievers outside the Hall.” Which is where they belong so please stop trying to come up with justifications for pitchers with nowhere near enough impact on the game to deserve a vote!
” but we’re talking about 10 innings spread over six series, of which only two saw him throw more than a single inning; it’s tough to ding him for such small samples.” Which is exactly what their entire careers are, small samples. Not only are they far short on total IP, but they only pitched one inning at a time. Stop comparing them to other relievers, stop comparing them to other relievers in the HOF, and start comparing them to pitchers because that is the position they play. The HOF is already overcrowded with undeserving relievers, don’t add to that mess. Bill James should have taught us that years ago in his HOF tome. Don’t compare them to the lowest level, the lowest member of the Hall, compare them to a reasonable standard for a pitcher. And once you’ve done so you should uncheck those boxes next year.
” start comparing them to pitchers because that is the position they play. ”
Precisely.
Should ANY relievers be in HOF by your standard?
I think Wilhelm was a good pick. I think one of Gossage, Sutter and Fingers would be sufficient for the Fireman era of relievers. I lean towards Gossage, but Fingers has some solid credentials, not so much Sutter for me. Rivera is an easy yes for the Closers, but that’s it. I would not vote for Hoffman, and I’m a San Diego native who is a lifelong Padres fan.
I should have added Eckersley. I have a tendency to forget about him because i consider him more of a hybrid candidate. Great career, probably Hall of Very Good, as a starter before becoming a reliever and having some very good seasons, even if they were largely one inning variety. But he’s also a great example of how the writers overrate relievers. CY and MVP in only 80 IP? Come on!
“This isn’t about his politics (as Schilling so often claims), this is about him using his sizable platform to spread hatred, intolerance, and disinformation.”
I don’t share Schilling’s political orientation, but what’s the difference? What you call him spreading hatred, intolerance and disinformation is him voicing his political opinions.
“political opinions” didn’t use to include calling for reporters to be lynched
So you care more about a dumb t shirt being worn then a guy who had sex with a minor.
This isn’t a defense of schilling. He’s an idiot. But my goodness you people give a pass on pure, genuine evil
Schilling advocates for the end of American democracy. You people give a pass to Nazis. He also literally doesn’t want to be voted in. Let’s all be happy that he’s getting exactly what he wants.
Absolutely no one is giving a pass to schilling. Repeatedly stated that it is justified to keep him out.
I will not back down in saying that grown men who have sex with 15 year olds deserve the same scrutiny when it comes with character.
If you want to contest that it says A LOT more about you then me
Referring to Schilling as having worn “a dumb t shirt” is giving him a pass.
It’s generally hopeless to discuss this with people like you. You have no interest in facts or nuance. You’re upset that someone is aggressively against your tourists at the Capitol and clearly are only interested in minimizing support for the gravest threat to American democracy since the Civil War.
It’s amazing that people like you absolutely have to argue points not being made.
This isn’t about schilling no matter how much you want it to be.
This is about grown men who have sex with children. That the character clause should apply to them as well. The fact that you fight that and deflect away from it constantly makes me wonder what exactly your browser history looks like.
Ok, so we’ve gotten to the “accusing the other person of being a pedophile” stage. All to give anti-democratic authoritarians a pass.
I have yet to say schilling deserves a vote and have repeatedly stated the opposite.
I am saying that the character clause should also be applied to a child groomer. Yet you repeatedly go out of your way to defend and deflect from a man having sex with a child. One has to wonder why
Once again you are making something up to argue a point not being made.
Feel free to point to any post where I support or defend schillings actions. I believe I have done the opposite and stated that he shouldn’t get a vote
Meanwhile you have go absolutely ham defending and deflecting for Clemens. You have repeatedly called me a racist and a Nazi for simply stating that a man who has sex with children should have the character clause applied to them. That’s beyond pathetic
Where did I defend Clemens? Clean up your own house first. But you won’t actually answer, because you’re just here to deflect and minimize white supremacy.
No. Curt Schilling is the one who makes things about politics. He’s the one with the agenda. He has created all of these problems. I’m so sick of people acting like the problem is people don’t like that he’s a Republican.
Mariano Rivera is a Christ-loving Trump supporter. Curt Schilling isn’t being disowned because he’s a Christian Republican. He’s being disowned because his words and actions are completely despicable, and over a very long period of time now.
I am against any cheater and committer of felonies, arrested or not, from being on the ballot. Being in the hall of fame is an earned privilege that accrues benefits that slime bags do not deserve regardless of the number of homeruns they hit. An adult male having sex with a 15-year-old deserves life in jail and not one second of hall of fame consideration. The fact he is still getting votes really makes me sad for this entire country. Having juiced during your MLB career at any time. Nope! Supporting armed insurrection against this democracy is again never! Thats the line that should be drawn! The hall of fame is a privilege. Ones impact on the history of the game can still be in history books about the game. The Hall is for the privileged who earned it throughout their life on and off combined!
Life in jail seems overboard.
I think you mean it’s a light sentence
If the player wasn’t arrested, tried, and convicted…. then how do you know they committed a felony?
Honestly, the synopsis for Joe Nathan emphasizes his worthiness to me whereas I might have otherwise not really considered him. Three years lost to injury and another three to four lost in the wilderness (mid-20’s). A Hall of Fame career is usually what, 17 or 18 years at minimum to hit the historical milestones? He lost 33% of that kind of career, give or take, and still did enough to get into the discussion. I think I’m sold.
To those folks fulminating over Jay’s reasons for not voting for Schilling, the former President of the United States handed out the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the country, ordinarily given to luminaries in science, the arts, literature, public service and sports, to Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes, whose only qualifications are both are rabid supporters. Let’s not get in a froth over a sportswriter voting his unhappiness with a player’s off-the-field conduct. And, if readers really don’t like politics on Fangraphs (and I’d be happy if it was never mentioned) we might want to set an example….
Or maybe it’s not the character standard but rather applying it evenly.
If both sides of the aisle can’t agree that having sex with a 15 year is horrific and should exclude anyone then we are done as a country.
Invoke the character clause. Deny schilling. Go for it. But at least apply the character clause to everyone.
Is schilling a jerk? Absolutely. But I’m sorry, sex with a 15 year old is worse then stupid words
It’s a fair point, and those who argue you, as you did, that the character clause should be applied across the board are coming from a place of consistency. My primary point was I’d like to see baseball (and baseball websites) have less politics to them.
I agree. But I try to be fair to the person putting their ballot out.
I don’t think I’m being unfair when I say that if you are going to invoke character clauses then I think it should be applied to grown men with kids who have sex with 15 year olds.
The character clause being applied “across the board” does not mean the same thing as it applying just how you’d apply it. The next time a candidate is openly advocating for the downfall of democracy, then we’ll see just how consistent Jaffe is.
I understand that you are upset that you people are not
The kings of the world and people are allowed to disagree with you (perhaps why you support Schilling so much), but that’s not how life works. You don’t get to decide whether or not something is consistent just based on your feelings.
Not sure whether you comment was directed at me, but I’m definitely not a supporter of Schilling. I think the voters have a right to choose whomever they want, and there’s more than ample reason to not choose Schilling.
Once again since you seem to not get it.
I agree with holding people to a character clause. Which is why I am adamantly about keeping a grown man who has sex with 15 year olds out of the hall.
This isnt about schilling. I dont like schilling. I dont care if he doesnt make it into the hall.
It is not unreasonable to ask someone why they believe character matters and then vote a child groomer in.
Are you saying a voter isn’t consistent on their belief before casting their ballot? I’m shocked, SHOCKED to hear such a thing!
With respect to the character clause, a person’s character should be viewed in its totality. Schilling’s work with ALS care buys him a lot of bad political takes in my book.
I fully support your right to that take. I think Schilling went about 12,000 miles past what could be considered a bad political take. The offsets argument is interesting. Doesn’t change my view. Sort of a rich person get out of jail free card. Could we forgive a rapist that routinely fed the hungry?
It’s an interesting hypothetical. But Schilling didn’t rape anyone, cheat at the game or break any law, he just has some dumb and incorrect opinions. ALS is a brutal disease and giving patients and their families a little more comfort at the end of their lives is very admirable. Some of his opinions are bad while many of his actions are good, and writers have such a narrow focus that a few of his worst opinions completely define him as a person. He is not a cartoon character villain.
Interesting take. I agree. I dislike Schilling, but saying that he was “calling for the lynching of writers”, as if he rounded up some pitchforks and the posse and stood outside the sheriffs station demanding justice, is just absurd. He did no such thing. The side that hates him is hyperbolic and just making stuff up. The side that defends him is willfully ignorant and oblivious. I’m just making a post to piss off both sides I suppose. But the above resonated with me more than any other comment – he isn’t a cartoon character villian. You wouldn’t know it by reading the inaccurate posts on both sides. Anyone that claims he is literally calling for reporters to be lynched is turning him into a cartoon character.
I should state that I am not a trump or Schilling supporter, before TKDC comes accusing me of such 6 times over while ignoring literally everything being said.
Thank you for the series
Great summary and I appreciate hearing the thought process. I still will never get not voting for Shilling. His personal opinions are odd and I understand not liking them, but we have gone over 100 years where players didn’t have a public forum to voice their opinions. I think it’s difficult to use that stuff against his baseball career no matter how odd he is. Overall though I like your thought process and always appreciate your insight on the hall. I hope Bonds finally gets in as its a great injustice even though I don’t like the PED use or what it did to the game.
That Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez are left off your list, while Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and DAVID ORTIZ are on your list is so completely (and concurrently) typical and bizarre.
It’s so weird how steroid use is a conversation-ender for most people’s legacies, but the fact Ortiz used and that his entire legacy was built on steroids just doesn’t seem to matter to most people.
I don’t have a problem with Clemens and Bonds since last year on the ballot and all, but including Ortiz while leaving Rodriguez off ostensibly for it being his 1st year is blatant hypocrisy.
It’s a weird brand of ethics the baseball writers have adopted. Their reasoning appears to be, “If you were suspended as a result of MLB policy, or if you were involved in a federal investigation, we won’t consider you. But if you tested positive at some point before they initiated testing, then they’ll still vote for you… unless you’re Mark McGwire or someone else we don’t want to vote for because it wouldn’t look good.”
It’s almost like if you cheat enough to be really good, but not enough to break records, you’re OK. David Ortiz is OK because he used steroids and hit 47 and 54 HR’s, not 65 or 73 home runs like Sosa or McGwire.
It has always been bizarre to me how things that are career-ending for some people have zero effect on other people’s reputations. Even before Biogenesis and the 162-game suspension, A-Rod’s and Manny’s legacies were torpedoed because they appeared on the list of 104 players who tested positive in 2003. Sammy Sosa, too.
David Ortiz’ name was also on that list, and for whatever reason, it wasn’t a big deal when the news broke a dozen years ago, and people still don’t care this guy obviously used steroids, which is obviously why he had those monster years from 2003-2007.
Solid ballot. Hopefully it isn’t spoiled by failing to follow the instructions correctly. 😉
“This isn’t about his politics (as Schilling so often claims), this is about him using his sizable platform to spread hatred, intolerance, and disinformation.”
I mean, it sort of is, in that the exact way that he defines his politics are indeed about hatred, intolerance, and disinformation. It’s as difficult to separate those things as it is the hatred, intolerance, and disinformation that being an member of the CPUSA (especially those who, like Dalton Trumbo, remained loyal and spouted the Party line during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact as well as afterwards) required.
I have absolutely no qualms with people who refuse to vote for Schilling on that basis, and who also think that he should be denied platforms. It seems like a perfectly coherent argument. I just wish that they would agree that the same is true of those like Dalton Trumbo, who didn’t deserve a hagiography. Schilling is quite bad, but he’s not the apologist for genocide that Trumbo was. (Noting, as one must, that the Hollywood Blacklist was studio run and enforced largely by the public, including the American Legion’s Red Letters; Congress’s hearings were as ineffective and impotent as their hearings about extremists today.)
I think it’s true that we lack the vocabulary and rhetoric to address the Schilling situation, and that’s true in sports media and in analogous situations outside of it. The rhetorical device Jay is using here is to bracket Schilling’s more dangerous ideas off from the ones that were considered conservative a decade ago to try to avoid offending conservatives who aren’t actually dangers to democracy. The problem is that Schilling himself doesn’t bracket them off, so they are absolutely part of his political beliefs. And on top of that, lots of conservatives see Schilling’s more dangerous ideas as being part of conservative thought as well (and some think they are good, or harmless, or whatever) and so they reject Jay’s comments as being against them too. Which, in some cases, he is (in some cases he is not).
There’s not much of a playbook to talk about extremist thought when it becomes this mainstream. I’m on Jay’s side here, but I don’t think an insistence that it’s not about politics is fooling anybody. Schilling considers it his politics, much of the world considers it to be his politics, and so it is. I’m not sure I’ve hit on a better way to handle it, because explaining it all draws more attention to it. The only way I can explain it is this: There is a reason why people are doing this with Schilling and they have not done it with candidates before. If a person can’t wrap their head around the extraordinary times we live in, then perhaps they should try.
You did fine. The key word is extremism. People say “politics” as if any political view is completely relative and acceptable. Some views are unacceptable. Martial law and arrest political opponents is a place where I draw my line.
I’m sorry that rational thought is so offensive to you, but if Fangraphs tried to placate authoritarians and white supremacists in order to get more members, they’d lose plenty in the process. This one for sure.
And this is why. It’s not FG. Is the A hole commenters. Just because someone doesn’t want to read about politics when digesting their sports makes them an authoritarian white supremacist? FG used to bring box scores to life. Tell me where the politics are in a box score.. this view, and the fact it’s getting any upvotes, is why they need to turn these comments off.
I’m a dem. I’m Japanese. I don’t want to read yours or anyone else’s views while I am reading about sports. I want sports to continue to be my escape without someone else trying to be offended on my behalf.
If you’re too much of a snowflake, just don’t read the comments. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. It’s not anyone else’s fault you are softer than baby shit.
I agree and disagree. I know on this website, where WAR is valued above all else, Schilling is this no-doubt-about-it HOF’er. But in the grand scheme of things, Schilling got to 216 wins.
Now, you can say, “What about his WAR? What about his FIP? What about his K/BB ratio?”
When Schilling played, wins still mattered. 216 wins is more than some people in the HOF. But it’s a lot less than a lot of people not in the HOF: Luis Tiant, Kenny Rogers, David Wells, Andy Pettitte, Jamie Moyer.
He’s NOT the slam-dunk HOF candidate people make him out to be. And he IS the slam-dunk, no-doubt-about-it a-hole.
He has definitely earned that one.
With Schilling, seems you’re trying to have it both ways. You explain how you aren’t giving him a vote because you find his political views abhorrent abd don’t want to provide a larger platform to those views, and then say but of course it’s not about politics.
It is extremely telling how many people are willing to crucify Schilling for what he says while giving a pass to child groomers. Downvote me. I dont care. You really showed me.
Maybe its time to re-assess your politics. Scratch that. Your humanity.
Schilling is a garbage human and is rightfully deserving of everything that is coming his way. But the fact that so many people are offended that you ask a writer to consistently apply his character ideals equally is disturbing.
People. Clemens had SEX WITH A 15 YEAR OLD. A CHILD. Imagine if that was your child. Your sister or daughter. Hate schilling. Cool. bravo. No one is arguing that. But dear God is appalling how many people can find the outrage within themselves over what Schilling has tweeted while remaining mute about a pedophile.
Dont tell me you value morality and decency while giving a pass to a grown man with a wife and two children who had sex with a child.
FYI. If you’re going to throw around words like pedophile you might want to spend a few minutes and learn the definition of the word. But I’ll help you out this one time. Pedophilia is when “an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.”
One can certainly disagree with Clemens’ actions and they may have been illegal depending on when a sexual relationship began. But Clemens is absolutely not a pedophile.
Really I’m getting voted down for this? What is wrong with people on this site? There is an actual medical definition of what pedophilia is and NOTHING about Clemen’s behavior suggests that he is one. Calling someone a pedophile when they are clearly not one is quite frankly despicable and zwibi should be ashamed of himself.
Dude has sex with children. If you want to play semantics because he may not have “exclusive” attraction then go for it.
I just wish you could summon a fraction of the outrage for Clemens having sex with children then you do for word play.
Maybe don’t have sex with 15 year olds and you won’t have people calling you a pedophile. Seems like an easy thing to avoid, if you’re not clemens
Clemens can be garbage and not be a pedophile. Are you sure you weren’t using that word specifically for its negative connotations?
I honestly don’t understand how a person like you can be so high on your horse, believing that each of your proclamations must carry the authority of god. You are either just shilling for Schilling or you’re a bot-level troll. Here’s a tip: you will never get anywhere in life indiscriminately calling people who disagree with you “pedophiles.” Failing to address the obvious nuance in the cases of Clemens and Schilling but instead just claiming anyone that disagrees with you must have sex with children is disgusting and your mother must be ashamed of you.
Also, it’s “than” in several of your posts. I don’t say that to mean that you’re wrong because you don’t know that (you are wrong for so many different reasons), but just because basic grammar errors bother me.
Once again you more outspoken about grammar then clemens having sex with a child. Once again you are making this about schilling when its not.
But please explain the nuance of having sex with a 15 year old. Explain the nuance of thinking character matters while voting for a child groomer. Please. Id love to hear your brilliance.
And if adamantly voicing my dislike for grown men having sex with children puts me on a high horse then I’ll take it.
I also dont think someone needs to have a belief in God to know that sex with a child is wrong.
I’m glad to hear you want to live in an authoritarian racist hell without child rape. I guess you’re not all bad. But maybe you could try not being a blithering moron? But my guess is this is all just your attempt to whitewash your Nazi propensity. Pretending that not liking child rape makes you right about something completely unrelated shows some unhinged tendencies. You should really seek help. Or ask your parents to do so.
But I guess I shouldn’t expect better from you. I literally just gave you advice on how to use “than” and you still failed. Honestly, I don’t know why I do this. I guess I hope you right wing lunatics are reachable, but I guess I’m probably wrong.
Here’s a tip: you will never get anywhere in life indiscriminately calling people who disagree with you “pedophiles.”
Then he goes on calling someone a nazi who whitewashes things and is a right wing lunatic. The hypocrisy is outstanding.
Simply for saying that I believe that the character clause should be applied across the board and we should keep out schilling AND the man who has sex with 15 year olds.
Dude, seriously. You are committing the same sins you are accusing him of. At no point did he EVER utter a single word in support of Schilling. And you are dropping Nazi, racist and white supremacy bombs on him.
He is attacking anyone who disagrees with his take as a supporter of pedophilia. And the context is that Schilling is not getting a fair shake (for his “words on a t shirt”). It’s unbelievably easy to see what is going on here and yet many people seem unable to see it. It’s honestly baffling. Any conversation related to the character clause and Clemens not only doesn’t require discussion of Schilling, that discussion just ruins it. So, there is no reason to bring up the comparison of the two except if your real motive is to carry water for Schilling. I don’t think he’s stupid. That would be the only other explanation. Schilling and Clemens have completely different “character clause” cases and if you really think you can boil them down to how bad the root behavior is, you are a moron, plain and simple. You just don’t understand basic logic, or really the world at all.
Ah yes.
Saying schilling should have a character clause applied to him and shouldnt be in the hall is definitely “carrying water for schilling. At no point, ever, did i say schilling was not getting a fair shake. I believe the exact words were “we should keep out schilling AND the man who has sex with 15 year olds.” Yup, definitely looks like support there.
The fact that you completely make crap up just shows how morally bankrupt you are. Never mind the fact that you continually argue points not being made rather than addressing the fact that a man who has sex with children SHOULD NOT RECEIVE VOTES
You’re exhausting.
Being called exhausting by you is like being called tall by Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Frankly, I had never heard the accusation of pedophilia. So I just consulted the WIKI article on Clemens, where I found this:
‘On November 17, 2008, McCready spoke in more detail to Inside Edition about her affair with Clemens, saying their relationship lasted for more than a decade and that it ended when Clemens refused to leave his wife to marry her. However, she denied that she was 15 years old when it began, saying that they met when she was 16 and the affair only became sexual “several years later”.[104] In another soon-to-be-released sex tape by Vivid Entertainment she claimed that the first time she had sex with him was when she was 21. ‘
It sounds to me like the truth of the accusations of pedophilia has yet to be established. Schillings’ disgusting remarks, on the other hand, are a matter of public record, particularly those he submitted to social media like Twitter. There’s no ambiguity there.
I honestly don’t understand people being upset at Schillings being left off the ballot. Regardless of your opinion of him, the guy does not want to be voted in, he’s made that quite plain, so what would be the point of voting for him? If he wants to get in, let him take his case to the committees, since that’s what he wants anyways. Voting for him right now just seems counter-intuitive to me, so not voting for him, whatever the reason might be, seems like the obvious solution.
Joe Nathan? The HOF continues towards an increasing lower common denominator wbuch seemingly knows no bounds.
Love that Andruw Jones is getting the boost he deserves. Completely disagree with Schilling being left off the ballot because you don’t want to give him the chance to speak to an audience. Of all the reasons to not vote for someone, not wanting them to speak seems to be one of the most petty and un-American modes of thought. Say that you don’t like him personally, say he wasn’t good enough on the field, say its about his politics, but not because you want to keep him from speaking to an audience.
time passes and I say to myself “give this joker another read”
but you just can not help yourself probably because you support the communism happening to America
…thoroughly discredited claims of election fraud…
lol
my recommendation for anyone who still leans the wrong side of Good is this: turn off legacy media
Perhaps you should take your own advice? If you have organized your thinking in the way your comment indicates, why come here? There are plenty of forums that cater to your view of reality.
I come here for B-A-S-E-B-A-L-L…not political talk. yet this author can’t stop himself from poisoning his work and fangraphs does not stop the inclusion either. and based on your post, you, too, support the destruction of America.
Your idea of America apparently doesn’t have much room for the First Amendment, does it? I come here for baseball as well, and I can decide for myself if I think someone is worth reading. I don’t need an echo chamber any more than I need to hear people questioning my patriotism because I don’t support their particular view. FWIW, even the Founders fought over what they ostensibly agreed to in the Constitution.
Oops.
He’s explaining his HOF ballot. Why the heck would Fangraphs not want his reasoning?
If you haven’t seen it, you might be interested in an essay published yesterday in The New York Times: “I Investigated Bonds and Clemens. Yes, They Belong in Cooperstown.”
The author is Bonds’ Inspector Javert, Jeff Novitzky.
So Roy Halladay gets in his first year. Curt Schilling beats him in most metrics and dominates in the postseason. Yet Schilling has to wait because some voters don’t like him as a person. Grow some skin folks. Halladay deserves it but so does Schilling. It is shallow, immature, and thin skinned to hold back a vote because you don’t like him as a person.
Schilling belongs, and I expect he’ll make it at some point. Given that Ty Cobb was a member of the inaugural class of the Hall of Fame, it’s hard to cite character as a disqualifier without inviting a charge of rank hypocrisy.
Why do you choose Cobb – the man who advocated for integration before so many did?
Cobb went into the stands and beat up a crippled heckler (what set him off was the heckler saying Cobb had Black blood). He allegedly bragged (perhaps falsely) that he killed a man in an alley and defaced him with the barrel of his pistol so the police wouldn’t be able to identify him. He pled guilty to assault after slashing a night watchman’s hand with a knife in a fight in a hotel elevator. He attacked a Black worker in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt and was found guilty of battery, but the sentence was suspended. When his son flunked out of Princeton, Cobb traveled to the campus and beat him with a whip.
Your image of Cobb as an integrationist is countered by biographer Steven Elliott Tripp in his book “Ty Cobb, Baseball, and American Manhood.” As reviewer Christopher R. Davis noted in his review of the book:
‘Tripp concludes that, based on very little evidence, “Leerhsen overstates the Cobb family’s egalitarian heritage” and points out that Cobb himself always emphasized his Confederate roots and “never discussed” any family connections to abolitionism (p. 377). Moreover, as Tripp notes, Cobb’s grandfather, John Cobb, was a well-respected leader in the Carolina backcountry, a man whose opinions his neighbors sought and valued. If his racial views had differed markedly from theirs, he would neither have achieved nor maintained that status. Like many of his backcountry brethren, John Cobb opposed the wealthy southern elite both before and after the war, but, also like them, it seems unlikely that he championed racial equality. In the early-1950s, his grandson, Ty, made some positive comments about contemporary black players and racial integration in sport, but that followed a long career where he refused to compete against African Americans and a lifetime of maintaining strict silence on racial issues. Even in old age, Tripp concludes, Cobb “remained something less than the enlightened egalitarian” that Leerhsen portrays (p. 362).’
One consistent narrative about Cobb is that he was disliked throughout the baseball world and even by his own teammates but tolerated for his exceptional talent.
However, if you want to pick another member of the inaugural class of the Hall of Fame who was not a paragon of virtue, Babe Ruth will do.
Why pick any? I suspect you and I and everyone have something to be ashamed of. So the likes of Jay Jaffe suggesting some moral superiority is very disturbing. We shoud throw Willie Mays out of the Hall of Fame becuase he played – without priotest – while transgenders were banned from baseball!
@Barry
So you agree that players accused of juicing shouldn’t be banned from the Hall because it would validate a double standard.
It took a while, but it’s good to see you come around.
So chew on this: you,Mr. Jaffe believe Billy Wagner is more deserving than Curt Schilling…bizarre!!! You believe Bonds and Clemens are deserving but not Alex Rodriguez,,,bizarre!!! The Schilling decision is the most indefensible one and shows that you are using your platform to spread lies and mis-information…exactly what you accuse Schilling of doing, He was a great player deerrving of the HOF and he broke no laws, espouses opinions shared by many good Americans even if he expresses them in a way you find distasteful. Mr. Jaffe, I would advise you take a long look at yourself to see what an unreasonable and un-principled person you are.
I think Schilling belongs in the Hall based on his performance on the field. However, not a single thing Mr. Jaffe said about Schilling is a lie. To the contrary, he went easy on him. As a ballplayer, Schilling was elite. As a human being, and particularly as an American, he’s contemptible. And those who share his opinions are not good Americans. Those who support the overthrow of the government to reinstall a lying would-be dictator aren’t Americans at all.
The only reason I support Schilling’s induction into the Hall is that the Hall has already enshrined a rogues gallery of distasteful characters who happened to be exceptionally good ballplayers. As long as we acknowledge that the morals clause has never been consistently enforced, he can be a member.
P.S.
Mr. Jaffe explained quite reasonably why he isn’t voting for Alex: “I distinguish between those whose allegations date to the time when the game had no testing regimen or means of punishment (i.e., prior to 2004) and those that came afterwards.”
I don’t happen to agree. I think this perpetuates the fiction that only a few players were juicing and that the testing program now is thoroughly effective. I believe neither.
You know, Barry — on second thought, since Schilling and his QAnon clan fulminate so much about his right to free speech, I think his freely spoken wish to be excluded from the ballot should be honored. Let him take responsibility, at least once, for what comes out of his mouth. All the writers should honor his wishes and not vote for him.
Mr. Jaffe’s right to free speech should be honored as Mr. Schilling’s should. However, since this is a HOF vote not a political poll, Jaffe has a responsibility to vote ethically which I do not believe he is doing.
I don’t think Mr. Jaffe needs lectures on ethics from someone who supports sedition or supports those who support sedition.
You aren’t commenting ethically. You aren’t breathing ethically. You aren’t existing ethically. Why? Because I said so.
I think Mr. Jaffe made a very reasonable argument in Wagner’s favor.
Clemens called for martial law and arrest of political leaders. You are strangely ok with that.
Jay writes so so much on these issues, and this is the post that brings out the unhinged folk? (“IS JAY A PEDOPHILE? QANON says yes!”) I’ve noticed that the most measured, thoughtful FG commenters–the ones I come here to read–think it’s worth their brain power to engage for some reason, and I wonder why.
Because this post is w hhere Jaffe actually comitted to his opinions instead of principled choices. He has a responsibility as a voter, e.g., to vote in Schilling because Schilling has neither broken any baseball laws or US laws and is highly deserving as a player, Jaffe used his position to make a political statement – not cool- and this get people upset.
Actually, Jay doesn’t have any obligation to vote for any of the candidates. He has a vote, he can use or or not. He can be Big Hall, Small Hall and everything in between. Willie Mays, surely among the top five players of post-integration era, got 94.7 %, Ted Williams 93.4% and Stan Musial 93.2%. It took Mel Ott 4 years and DiMaggio 3.
@glanderm…well stated!
There was a different way to say this, but you’re correct, the divide has cost them lots of subscribers, myself, a longtime $50/year subscriber who wouldn’t even notice another $50, included.
For me, I know politics are part of sports. But FG was always different, it cut through all the noise (whether political, fallacy, incorrect/outdated views and stats, etc) and provided a new and better way to enjoy the game I love. It wasn’t like FakeTeams or Banter or Barstool or reading a ridiculous Bill Plaschke diatribe. It used to be pure here.
I should say that it’s improved over the last year to 18 months. Every other article was a political war zone for a while there. Now, it’s happening much less than it was, though still too prevalent for me to want to support with another $50 (not so prevalent as to keep me from ordering a mug whilst I keep my membership on ice).
One suggestion that might make me pay to support the tie again – simply turn off comments on any article that includes and political content. Just like MLB Trade Rulors did – recognize an issue, fix it. FG has yet to recognize that it’s an issue. That sums up why I personally don’t subsribe anymore.,
With Schilling, it is about politics BECAUSE HE HAS MADE IT about politics.
Also, he’s not in the class of Bonds and Clemens. Wins still mattered when Schilling played. Schilling got to 216. It’s more than a few people in the HOF, but it’s a lot less than a lot of people not in the HOF.
Curt Schilling’s career started in 1988. It had some tremendous peaks, but there are some big gaps in there, too.
Plus, he’s a mean-spirited racist with zero character.
It is Curt Schilling who has brought politics into sports in this instance.
I appreciate Jay’s transparency.
However, I remain perplexed that people apparently think the commissioner of baseball controlled the *legality* of steroids and other PEDs. Or that somehow no one on the planet knew about the problems that using illegal PEDs posed for other athletes who just wanted to complete cleanly in many sports.
Baseball’s failure to have a testing regimen in tune with the already-established law didn’t mean that players weren’t using *illegal* means to bolster their performance. And that ought to be taken into consideration.
100% on this. It was illegal to use steroids in the manner baseball players used them, therefore they were against the rules. MLB also does not get to decide whether players are allowed to cheat on their taxes.
What was of question is whether MLB could impose additional punishments within the realm of MLB above and beyond the legal punishments players would face for using steroids in the manner in which they were. Before 2004, there was no formal/standardized/agreed-upon method by which they could do so.
Yes, using steroids was against the rules. The players who used them were cheating. They knew it, we know it.
All that being said, Bonds/Clemens/ARod still belong in the Hall. Joe Nathan does not.
A good ballot in many ways, but voting for Nathan takes it well into the lulz range. You can’t really redeem yourself after that.
It has been stated often: “If you need to come up with REASONS why a player should be in the Hall of Fame….he probably doesn’t belong there.” (The Baseball Hall of Fame has now become the Football Hall of Fame. “Halls of Very Good”.)
PEDs are the future. It’s all about health. This isn’t Dave Remington and Lyle Alzado injecting crap in their butt, Maybe I’m wrong (probably), but it has to be the future of sports medicine.
Selig was well aware of the PED epidemic. He found excuses to delay hard action as long as it was good for business (Outcome Bias, see Keith Law’s Inside Game).
So after many years the steroid scandal becomes publicly too big to ignore. Selig imposes penalties which impacts his positive public perception of him as saviour of the game . Just as MLB lauded Landis as a game saviour, Selig too comes to the rescue. It was good for business.
The owners also benefited financially from the power explosion. The steroid era bolstered attendance for the owners after the disastrous 1994 strike crippled the game ; again it was good for business.
And writers could fall out of bed and not wonder what to write about; the era practically handed them daily columns. Once the scandal reached its apex no writer offered to take a cut in pay for the boost they received from the steroid saga. For years PEDs created low-hanging fruit for writers as the stories often wrote themselves for the writer’s benefit; again it was good for business.
Yes, PEDs were good for the player’s business too. Yet it seems hypocritical to allow Selig into the HOF for his role. It also seems duplicitous for writers who benefited from the era to virtue signal to all of us how they will not vote for these players for the HOF.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is a bit off topic, but Pat Gillick sat in conference with 25 other owners and a commissioner to collude against the CBA and free agency over three years (1985-87). Marvin Miller said this was worse than the Black Sox scandal. All of these executives essentially fixed six pennant races and three World Series. No owner tried to improve his team by refusing to sign any free agents with a wink and a nod (Gentleman’s Agreement). Without collusion, team rosters would change tremendously and we see true pennant races and World Series. Who know who would have won if all the pieces fell into place naturally and not artificially. Thus, Pat Gillick colludes to fix contracts, just as the Eight Men Out colluded to fix a World Series. Yet Gillick gets into the HOF but not Joe Jackson. This story remains an underreported story. If Gillick and Selig get in, along with Ivan Rodriguez, Jeff Bagwell, and Mike Piazza, then put in Bonds, Clemens, and Papi.
The only reason Selig and union head Donald Fehr agreed to institute a credible drug-testing program was that they got hauled up to Capitol Hill by Sen. John McCain and Rep. Henry Waxman, who threatened to have the government institute a program if they failed to do so. Brewers owner Selig was one of the Great Lakes Gang of owners who ousted Commissioner Fay Vincent. A year before they replaced him with Selig, Vincent sent a leaguewide memo calling for a tough anti-drug policy that included fining owners if they harbored PED users.
😊♥️⚾😊
Yes, because there are a lot of reserve middle infielders on that ballot…
Come on down, Jeff Reboulet! Your ticket is punched, Deivi Cruz! Get that speech ready, Mark Lemke! You’re a winner, Neifi Perez! (?!?!?!?)