Let’s Imagine a Baseball-Playing LeBron James
LeBron James is a basketball player. Let’s imagine a LeBron James equivalent as a baseball player.
I was talking with a friend, and we got to discussing the amount of coverage devoted to the current LeBron James free-agency sweepstakes. Neither one of us is a basketball fan, but still we’ve become aware of what’s happening, and the news is almost impossible to avoid. In thinking about why James is generating so many headlines, I can see two explanations. One, he’s an icon, and he has a polarizing history, so as the James saga turns, media companies see traffic and revenue. He’s one of the most compelling athletes on the planet. Two, and presumably more importantly, LeBron James is amazing. His decision is going to change the whole NBA landscape, because he’s incredibly, impossibly valuable, in a way that no baseball player is or could be.
If Mike Trout were a free agent, that would be a big deal — one of the very biggest deals. It doesn’t get better than Mike Trout. But Trout appears to be worth about 10 – 11 WAR. He plays just one position. He fills just one of nine slots. When James is on the floor, he’s one of five guys, and he spends very little time hurt or on the bench. And the offense can be programmed to heavily feature James’ skills, so he ends up with more opportunities. James can just about make a basketball team good, with limited assistance. Trout’s a smaller component. Oh, with Trout, the Angels have baseball’s biggest competitive advantage, but a roster of Mike Trout and 24 nothings would be a terrible roster indeed.
So, in reality, there is no LeBron James baseball equivalent. There couldn’t be. It’s practically impossible. But let’s imagine. If there were a baseball equivalent to LeBron James, what would that player look like? What kinds of numbers would a guy have to post to be as valuable as James is to a team?
All of the numbers you see below are approximations. This is intended simply for fun, and because this is intended simply for fun, we’re going to take two different approaches, because I can’t make up my mind over which is more accurate. Each approach will target a different single-season WAR. Obviously, the first step is figuring out James’ single-season value, and this is why we’ll have two approaches. One idea: last year, James was worth about 2.3% of all basketball WAR. Because a baseball season has 1,000 total WAR, that would give us a target of about 23. The other idea: James is projected for about 21 WAR. That’s over an 82-game season, so over a 162-game season, you’d be talking about almost 42 WAR. I don’t know which way to go, so I’ll go both.
Approach No. 1: create a baseball player worth about 23 WAR.
Approach No. 2: create a baseball player worth about 42 WAR.
LeBron James is insane. Let’s make some guys who’re also insane.
Approach No. 1
- Target: ~23 WAR
We’re going to begin with a foundation, and our foundation will be 2013 Mike Trout. A season ago, Trout was worth 10.4 WAR in 157 games. We need to double that, and then some. The first, easiest step: let’s have the guy play all 162 games. That boosts the WAR to 10.7.
Now let’s work on the defense. There are limitations to how valuable a defender can be, because a defender’s value is limited by the number of opportunities. Single-season UZR has peaked around +30 runs, for infielders and for outfielders. Let’s change the player’s fielding performance to +30 runs. That takes us past 13 WAR.
Now let’s make another change! This is all about making tweaks. A year ago, Trout played mostly center field, and also a bit of left field. Our imaginary player is a full-time shortstop. The WAR sneaks past 14.
Trout, last year, stole 33 bases, and was caught seven times. Let’s turn those caught steals into successful steals. And for the hell of it, let’s add another ten successful steals, too. Now the WAR’s close to 15. And hey, Trout hit nine triples! Turn those triples into homers. The WAR slides past 15.
Trout hit way more doubles than triples. He also hit more doubles than homers. Let’s also now turn all the doubles into home runs. So, all of the player’s extra-base hits are homers, under these circumstances. The WAR’s up to 18.
We’re getting there. We’re still off by five wins, but that’s nothing at this point. Let’s take…70 outs. Trout made a lot more than 70 outs. Let’s turn those 70 outs into 70 singles. Regular singles, nothing more. And, that does it. That takes our WAR just past 23. Approach No. 1 is complete: we’ve created a baseball player worth about 23 WAR in a single season.
What does it take? A literal full season of being an incredible defensive shortstop. And, to go with good baserunning, the player hits about .438/.527/.820, with a .560 wOBA. For what it’s worth, in 2002, Barry Bonds ran a full-season .544 wOBA. He was worth more than 12 WAR. Basically, you can imagine that version of Barry Bonds, but completely healthy, and unparalleled in the field. Also, better at the plate. I don’t know what to do about intentional walks, but I don’t need to make this any more complicated.
By this approach, the baseball equivalent of LeBron James is absolute peak Barry Bonds at the plate with, I don’t know, absolute peak Ozzie Smith in the field. And, presumably, this imaginary player is better both at the plate and in the field. And he doesn’t miss a single game. So.
Approach No. 2
- Target: ~42 WAR
Welp. Let’s make this maximally interesting. Sure, I could just keep adding more dingers to the guy above until the numbers match, but let’s go a different route. Four out of every five games, this player is the player featured in Approach No. 1. One out of every five games, this player is a starting pitcher who also hits like the player featured in Approach No. 1.
It’s Micah Owings crossed with God. Taking the previous WAR and multiplying by 80%, we get 18.6. Now we need to find another 23 WAR or so in 20% of the games in a season. This is going to require some breathtaking starting pitching. Let’s start with another foundation. Let’s start with 2013 Clayton Kershaw, who ran an RA9-WAR of just about 9.
Kershaw allowed 55 runs in 236 innings over 33 starts, good for an RA9 of 2.10. It’s time to go crazy. Let’s subtract 30 runs. That’s 30 runs, taken away from 55 runs. You’d think this might be simple, but it’s actually more complicated to convert to WAR, because pitchers play a large role in determining their own run environment, and the run environment determines the runs-to-wins conversion. Running through all the math, this takes us just past 14 WAR. I’m pretty sure I did it right. I’m pretty sure I at least got close.
Now, last year’s Kershaw averaged just over seven innings per start. Why not boost that up? Especially if he’s averaging under a run allowed per appearance. Let’s put him all the way up to nine innings per start, on average. The guy finishes what he starts. Now we’re looking at almost 19 WAR, and we haven’t even had to introduce some kind of four-man rotation or something.
And wait! This guy plays for a National League team, so this pitcher also hits for himself. And he doesn’t hit in the ninth spot, because he’s the best hitter on the planet, too. He averages over four plate appearances a game, batting like the imaginary player from Approach No. 1, and if you fold this in, it puts us between 23 – 24 WAR. Then you add in the WAR from the remaining four-fifths of the games and you get about 42.1. That’s precisely on target.
This approach assumes it’s fair to say a LeBron James baseball equivalent would be worth 42 WAR in a year. What would it take for a baseball player to be worth 42 WAR in a year? Based on our construction, we have a hybrid shortstop/starting pitcher. When playing the field, the guy hits better than Barry Bonds and fields better than Ozzie Smith. When pitching, the guy still hits better than Barry Bonds, and he doesn’t really ever get removed, and he allows an average of basically one run per nine innings. Craig Kimbrel has allowed an average of 1.64 runs per nine innings. This guy would be a lot better than Kimbrel, and he’d throw nine innings a game instead of one.
A potential problem: a guy who throws nine innings every five games might not have a great arm at shortstop. If you’d like to make up for that, feel free to subtract some defense and add some dingers. Or you can just pretend this guy is a wizard. Because, I mean, this is all wizardry.
The baseball equivalent of LeBron James is impossible. If he existed, he’d be sure to be underpaid, because at the usual free-agent market rates, his salary would be a whole payroll and then some. Baseball doesn’t have basketball’s maximum contract, but presumably there is some kind of line no team would ever go beyond, and these equivalents would establish that line. The LeBron James sweepstakes is generating more attention than any baseball-player sweepstakes ever could. This is because LeBron James doesn’t translate. Baseball will never have a LeBron James. It’ll have Mike Trout and Andrelton Simmons and Clayton Kershaw and Craig Kimbrel, and they’ll all be good and occupying different bodies.
A man can dream, though.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
This is fun, but it really just shows how different the 2 sports are more than any kind of statement of James’ dominance.
Now imagine this with peak Peyton Manning!
get crackin’!
I have. And that’s why I spilled the big bucks for him, and hooked him up with all the Papa Johns franchises right before Colorado legalized pot.
Just neighing.
I imagine he’d be a catcher with a bunch of passed balls.
The Colts in 2010 with Manning went 10-6. The following year without Manning and basically a replacement-level QB, they went 2-14. So assuming Payton was responsible for those 8 wins over a 16-game season, then he would be worth ~81 WAR.
Also, this exercise highlights how vastly different team composition is in baseball, football, and basketball. Not that that’s a bad thing, I enjoy them all fairly equally.
I got us from 4 wins to 8 wins. So that makes me half the QB Peyton is, which makes me worth 40 WAR.
Which makes me the Lebron James of quarterbacks.
Holy shit!
One oversight. This magical Clayton Trout COULD be ambidextrous. So he could pitch lefty, throw righty in the field. OR, he could pitch every 3 games, and thus increase his value even more. On the fo’ really, I’ve often wondered if there will ever be an ambi-pitcher, also if there will ever be a position player who also is in the starting rotation. He could DH the game after he pitches in the latter scenario. When people knock Ruth, I usually bring up the fact that he was pretty darn good pitcher too, so I think that makes him the best baseball player that ever lived. The best player not named Clayton Trout.
Tebow post made me spit up a lunch/coffee mixture.
Cleveland went 61-21 in 2009-10 (the best record in the league) and then went 19-63 in 2010-11 (longest losing streak ever, second worst record overall). That’s a 42 game swing…by your logic, extended to a 162 game season, that’s a WAR of 84. Lebron still wins.
Puig’s translator: There is an ‘ambi-pitcher’ in the Yankees farm system. Pat Venditte.
I believed that was the real Tim Tebow until he dropped the S-bomb. 🙁
I guess as long as it’s regular season only, the numbers would beg pretty good.
Looks to me like Fangraphs is just trying to cash in on the LeBron James media circus. Hasn’t been any good content here, really, since at least the mid-18th century.
*CLAP*…..*CLAP*…..*CLAP*…..
(for ignoring the troll)
So far, 21 people don’t know that Fangraphs (and professional baseball) hasn’t existed since the mid-18th century
I’m genuinely confused if people despise irony (because I really like this site) or if I’m genuinely annoying and not the least bit funny in suggesting that such a nice site would do something so bold, stupid, and pointless as “cash in” on another sport’s huge star. C’est la vie, I’m not a people person.
i’m with you frivoflava. I enjoyed the article because I literally read everything Jeff writes on the internet, but it’s a legitimate question that less-brain-sick people should ask.
The 18th-century comment was a bit much, though, which is probably why you’re getting downvotes.
How much “should” LBJ-as-a-baseball-player make every year?
@ $6m per win? $242,000,000
But let’s not stop there. What would a contract for such a player look like?
Using standard baseball aging models (- .5 war / year), $6m/win increasing at 4% annually, and assuming this is his peak year (age 27), and that the team paying him wants him until he’s a 2 win bench player…
It would be an 81 year contract worth $438,886,455,000,000.
In other words, 107 year old Clayton Trout would be the utility infielder + closer for the world series winning Los Angeles Yankees.
How can we translate this to blernsball performance?
It would be approximately equal to the performance of Tiny Iota.
MULTIBALL! MULTIBALL! BLURN! BLURN!
Boring? Baseball wasn’t…hmm, so they finally jazzed it up.
Wade Boggs, goes down smooth
One time a while back a tried to figure out how many WAR a pitcher who started all 162 games and pitched a 27 strikeout game every time would be. I think I came up with over 300 WAR or something like that.
I get that it was just an exercise, but at that point it’s just easier to bypass the WAR formula and say “a replacement-level team wins about 50 games, and a team with this player wins 162 games, therefore this player is worth 112 WAR”.
Surely the team this hypothetical pitcher played for would lose a handful of games, right? Just because every out is recorded via strikeout doesn’t mean the other team never scores.
I would assume it would be a 100% K%, not just 27 K/9.
Right, but drop a bunch of third strikes and you can have 100% k-rate and lose a game. In theory. In crazy-land, where we currently are.
Seems unlikely that it would happen enough times in a row, in one game, to be likely to affect the outcome. Plus even with a couple drop-3rd-strike runs, the pitcher’s team could still win by scoring their own runs.
It’s less unlikely than a starting pitcher running a 100% k-rate for a season, so…
If replacement level is 52 wins over 162 games, wouldn’t the max WAR in a season be 110? It certainly couldn’t be higher than 162. (Sorry in advance for taking an admittedly goofy premise seriously.)
All of his teammates are far below replacement, obviously.
Yeah, if you stocked the team with players that hit ~.100 you could still score enough to win games 1-0 and maximize the pitcher’s WAR.
Isn’t that Sidd Finch?
No, that’s Pitcher McPitcherson.
How about we make him a left-handed pitcher who throws right-handed when playing second? That would save his pitching arm for his starts.
*when playing short
Why don’t we make him pitch left-handed one day, then right-handed the next, then three days of shortstop?
What if we make him 10 feet tall, with a 105 MPH pitching machine for an arm?
Oh, and I suppose Pitch-o-mat 5000 was just a modified howizter??
Why are we stopping at 105 in this scenario?
Is that basketball WAR a real thing? Does anyone happen to know how well developed it is?
They use PER (personal efficientcy rating) which incorporates all a players statistics into one number (30 being the high water mark, much as 10 WAR is in baseball), but they do have estimated wins added as well, though it’s no where near as well refined as WAR since producing values for off the ball maneuvers is in it’s infantcy at this point.
One thing to point out to Dave is that PER or Win Shares don’t use a replacement level baseline. A guy with 0 WAR (basketball) would have a positive but terrible PER.
What I’m saying is that I think he is overrating LeBron because he doesn’t understand exactly how these basketball stats work. He should probably be shooting for something closer to the first scenario if we want to be realistic. See this link for a little of what I mean:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-james-shouldnt-stay-in-miami-or-go-to-cleveland/
Next do 1973 Secretariat.
Conditional: is David Eckstein riding 1973 Secretariat? That’s gonna shoot our Heart metric through the roof!
Make Prince Fielder his jockey, and he’d still beat everyone else. Unless 1973 Sham is in the race, too.
If I was a filly, I would.
Just neighing.
How wide did your eyes get on that one? Giftwrapped.
Scouting Report: Tends to stumble out of the gate, but finishes exceptionally well often finding his best stride late. Potential Triple Crown candidate who has yet to harness much of his power; slow home run trot gets under the skin of pitchers and bench jockeys alike. Runs like a thoroughbred, almost chomping at the bit when on the sacks. Has some problems when in the field, especially with flies. Requires lots of treatment from the trainer. Strong bloodlines; speed runs in the family. Main focus was sowing his wild oats back when he was down on the farm, but has matured since and now favors the horsehide over rolling in the hay with the fillies.
Wow, talk about a WAR Horse!
I was known for rolling in the hay when I was with the Phillies.
LeBaseball would pitch left handed and field right handed. Arm problems officially solved.
*LeBaseball James
Couldn’t there be an option 3 where the league was just so horrible that no other player came even close to being as good as Mike Trout?
Actually, that’d be interesting. How bad would the league have to be to cause Mike Trout to become, say, a 23 WAR player?
I’ll have to run the numbers on my MLB2K10 center fielder. I think he’s hitting .560/.570/1.400 or so.
Dude…..that’s nothin’
Soy Pablo
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/Baseketball.jpg/220px-Baseketball.jpg
This is one of your finest pieces of work, Jeff. Your mind works in some crazy ways…and I like it.
I was hoping for an image of Lebron playing baseball.
Yeah, that would have been nice. (Hangs head)
Only if this were a Cistulli article.
I know nothing about basketball. Zero. If you asked me to name all the active basketball players I know, my answer would be “LeBron James, Carmello somebody, that Chinese guy, and….is Shaq still playing?”.
But anyway, I just searched for “basketball WAR leaders.” I ended up here, which doesn’t mention WAR (or WARP, as it seems is more common in basketball): http://espn.go.com/nba/seasonleaders
So apparently ESPN has some player rating metric called, well, “ESPN.” There’s this guy Kevin Durant whose rating is higher than LeBron’s. And Kevin Love, who’s right behind LeBron.
I don’t know how legitimate this ESPN rating is, but does it mean that LeBron isn’t quite as dominant as you’d think when creating the baseball equivalent of him? Is it just the nature of basketball (mainly because there’s only 5 main guys per team) that there are *multiple* players who are the equivalent of Ozzie Smiths who hit 70 HR per year and get on base 60% of the time?
I believe its partially what you are addressing, with less players meaning individuals can contribute more, but in regards to Lebron, he has been much more consistently good than the others mentioned.
Ok, thanks. But is Lebron *twice* as good as anyone else in the NBA (the way that Ozzie Bonds would be about twice as good as current Mike Trout)?
I guess my point is that the baseball equivalent of LeBron is unfathomably good. Good enough to make me go look at basketball stats – which I’ve never done in my life – to see just how dominant LeBron is. But then by some metric (this ESPN rating, which I assume is at least *somewhat* legitimate, at least in the way OPS is) there are two other guys who are, if not better, at least in the same conversation as LeBron.
That really surprised me. Is this stat just bogus and is LeBron really that much better? Or is this kind of like the analog of a basketball fan who knows nothing about baseball hearing how Mike Trout is the best player on the planet, and then finding out that (this year, at least) Tulo and Felix are not very far behind him?
Short answer: the win spread in the NBA is much broader than in MLB, and superstars in the NBA are far more valuable than any MLB player could ever be.
According to basketball-reference.com WAR(or win shares) the best player in basketball in a particular year, be he LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt or whoever is worth about 20 wins above replacement. The 10 or so other best players are around 14 to 20 basketball WAR, or 28 to 40 WAR in 162 games. So no baseball player could realistically be as good as the usual best 10 NBA players.
But NBA teams have a much wider winning percentage. The 1996 Bulls were 72-10, an 88% winning percentage. That is the equivalent of a 142 win baseball team. Even the typical best team in a typical year wins 64 games, the equivalent of a 126 win team. NBA wins and values just do not translate to any sort of MLB standard.
“Is that stat bogus and LeBron really that much better?”
I don’t know. Let’s ask the Cleveland Cavaliers.
He wasn’t this year; Durant’s win-shares per 48 minutes (WS/48) was higher than Lebron’s. But last year, Lebron had the highest WS/48 since Kareem in 1972-73: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html
In addition to what has been pointed out below, that in basketball the best players get more possessions, we’d also need a way to modify baseball so that Lebron could affect other players’ at bats to make them better, like having a power bat in the 5th spot to keep pitchers from pitching around the cleanup hitter. But it would have to go even further…in the at bats Clayton Trout didn’t take, there’d have to be a way in which he could give the other batters easier pitches to hit (like setting up a player for an easy three in the corner).
It’s because in basketball the star can generate far more opportunities for himself than any baseball player possibly could. Practically every Thunder possession is filtered through Durant, save for the ones Westbrook hijacks. It would be like if Trout could insert himself into the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th slots in the batting order…while Pujols got two slots in the batting order, and the worst players on the team got one (or zero) lineup slots. Those guys are your Kendrick Perkins types – they rarely touch the ball offensively, so they don’t get assists or shots. His sole offensive role is to free up the good players to score.
Now I want to see this done. What would happen if, say, you could duplicate Trout three times in a lineup? 1st, 4th and 7th or something. What if we had a basketball-style lineup with only 5 players and yet filled out a 9-player lineup card with them? I dunno, it randomly sounds fun.
Now I want to see this done. What would happen if, say, you could duplicate Trout three times in a lineup? 1st, 4th and 7th or something. What if we had a basketball-style lineup with only 5 players and yet filled out a 9-player lineup card with them? I dunno, it randomly sounds fun.
I would think that you could just treble Trout’s offensive WAR for the season and you would have your answer, assuming a nine-player lineup card. A five-player card wouldn’t be so simple.
You could use Bill James’ old OWP formula to see how a team would do if they had Trout batting in all nine spots in the order, with average pitching and defense. (They’d win about 90 percent of their games.)
Just to take this thought a step further — what if there was no line-up? The manager can send any player to the plate who is not already on the bases.
So Trout would almost always lead-off and continue to bat until he gets on base or there are three outs. When he scores [or is out on the bases], he’d just grab his bat and get back in the batters box.
That’s an interesting idea, Eric R. You would want to score in as few moves as possible, to get your best player to the plate again.
Also, now I’m wondering: If you had a team of position players that were only Mike Trout, how bad would your pitching need to be to be a .500 team?
It is called win shares in basketball, and they have it broken down as a total and as an average.
But does he flop and get an opposing player ejected every time there’s a close play at 2nd?
100 years ago today Babe Ruth started his first major league game.
I’m rather surprised that wasn’t mentioned in the discussion of pitchers with insanely good hitting. I assumed when I started the article that this had been a major part of the inspiration.
Whoops, tomorrow, somehow I thought today was the 11th.
If you combine Babe Ruth’s best offensive year (15 WAR) and best pitching eyar (5.2) WAR, you’d get pretty close to the first scenario’s number! Over a 162 game season, instead of the 152, he’d be right about there!
This is the greatest sports article ever written. ever.
Does that make Albert Pujols the Dwayne Wade of baseball? They’ll both be pretty embarassing in a couple of years.
Someone needs to calculate what a full season of Steve Nebraska is worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILp5n4AQhyI
What would be the WAR of a switch LH/RH starting pitcher who starts every third day and only pitches complete, perfect games?
Does this superhuman baseball player get marginal pitches called strikes when he is pitching and balls when he is batting?
Does option 2 does make any sense? Why would more games by everyone in the league increase his PERCENT of the total?
Yes, because there would be twice as many WAR in twice as long of a season.
Babe Ruth had years with 15 WAR as a batter and other years with 5 WAR as a pitcher.
If Bo Jackson played Tecmo Baseball, that would be your guy.
Just neighing.
He’d look like this:
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/gif-mike-trout-robs-mike-trout-of-a-home-run/
So let’s build a basketball version of Miguel Cabrera! He would have better stats than LeBron in just about every category, played a position that didn’t require as much skill, let’s say Center, but was still a decent defender and was less handsome than LeBron.
Not center- he’d be a 2-guard who shoots 50% from beyond the arc but needs a great point guard to get him the open looks
So I must worth about 40 WARs
Use a switch pitcher a la Greg Harris and it would be easier to get to the WAR numbers without the batty pitching numbers
He’d be D’Angelo Jiminez.
Funniest baseball article ever!!!
Another way to get to >20 WAR, DH who fouls off every strike and walks 700 times a year 🙂
JC Boscan made his ML debut at age 30 in 2010 with his only plate appearance being a walk. He had a 350 wRC+. Over 700 PA at 1B that actually should be about 20 WAR, lol.
What % of MLB WAR would Mike Trout be worth if baseball was played 5-on-5?
Still wouldn’t be the same because you’d still have pitchers.
I’m only worth 1 WAR, but it’s a big one.
I think the only fair way to do this is to consider an equal proportion of the team. So if LBJ is ~20% of his team, you are looking for two players that add up to his WAR. I think the lower target is much better, because it’s proportional to the league. So trading for post-2013 LBJ is like trading for post-’56/’57 Mickey Mantle plus post-’04 Barry Bonds.
Exactly
A 42 WAR player?
Imagine if I got to be a 43-45 WAR player!
I’m gonna have to up my game then. 0.3 WAR per game should get me more WAR than LeBron.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2014&month=34&season1=2014&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=0&filter=&players=
This guy has more rings than anybody I’ve ever managed. And yes, even more rings than LeBron:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jordan001mic
I read the title.
And i knew Mike Trout must be mentioned.
Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan on the basketball court, but Michael Jordan descended from atheletic apotheosis and humbled himself to be a mediocre Minor League Baseball player.
Sweet, way to just throw out an unreasonable premise for an article with no explanation for its basis, and then proceed to write another 1000 words.
When I clicked on the NBA WAR calcs and see there are several guys generating close to LeBron’s WAR, it seems pretty clear your missing something in the translation from basketball to football right? I mean how do you look at that data, process it, then still think writing this article is interesting in the least bit? James is great sure, but not dominant to the extent you portray in this article.
Wait, when did he translate from basketball to football?????? Are we converting LeBron James to football, then converting him to baseball?
LeBron won’t get to the football stage. Just neighing.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/6/25/5839288/even-if-lebron-james-switched-to-playing-football-broncos-would-not
A pure pointless and waste of time article. Comparing the WARs for players for two completely different sports in asinine and irrelevant. Mike Trout currently is the Lebron James of Baseball and his 11 WAR proves it. Figure that one out.
This makes no sense. Trout is not the Labron of baseball because he cannot humanly contribute as much value to his team as Labron can. The point of the article is what would his stats have to be in order that he did. It was fun. It was your comment that was pointless/waste of time.
Of course since 5 men are on the court vs 9 OR 10 (ignoring other starting pitchers, and calling bench contributions roughly the same). The total players that contribute to the WAR is way higher for baseball. So in perspective the numbers are about half or 11.5 or 21 WAR to compare. So either equal to the best player currently. Or a good deal better than the best player. Not flying, shooting fireballs, and melting faces with laser vision good.
It’s not just the number of players. Yes in NBA 5 guys start but rotations are usually 8-9 guys a night. The reason why a NBA guy can be more valuable is because he can take a much higher % of his teams shots whereas baseball you have to wait when your turn comes up. If the NBA was structured where every drive you had to let a different player shoot and you were not allowed to shoot until every other guy on your team had their shot before your last one I think you would find Lebron’s value/impact on his team would go WAY DOWN.
Jeff…one thing you didn’t consider in your calculation for robot number two (that I saw, that is) is what it would mean to take away your immortal shortstop every fifth day to play a position elsewhere on the field. Wouldn’t this 1 day out of every 5 change the defensive adjustment that’s included in the calculation?
They use fielding independent numbers. Which means what would your stats look like if you just told your fielders to sit on the bench.
Your star shortstop is now playing closer to the plate. Nothing gets to SS or 2B because the pitcher has now fielded those balls perfectly.
But how many wins will he have?
Doesn’t matter Ruben. If you surround him with proven RBI guys and guys who know how to win, you’ll be golden.
Just imagine adding LeBaseball James AND some guys like Aaron Hill, Billy Butler, AJ Pierzynski, and good buddy Raul Ibanez to your lineup. And with the guys you trade to open up spots for them, imagine getting back a rotation full of winners like Simon, Estrada, Haren, de la Rosa, and Volquez. Heck, since this is all a dreamscape anyway, you can tack on not one but TWO proven closers, guys like Sergio Romo and Addison Reed.
Just look how great you’d be at mid-season:
C Pierzynski 0.0 WAR
1B Howard 0.0
2B Hill -0.8
SS LeBaseball 11.5
3B Asche -0.4
LF Butler -0.8
CF Brown -1.3
RF Ibanez -1.0
Bench Freddy Galvis -0.9
Bench Tony Gwynn Jr. -0.8
Bench Cesar Hernandez -0.7
SP Alfredo Simon 0.5
SP Jorge de la Rosa 0.6
SP Dan Haren 0.2
SP Marco Estrada -0.9
SP Edinson Volquez 0.1
Closer Sergio Romo -0.9
Bonus Closer Addison Reed -0.5
Swingman Rofausto Carmandez -0.4
Total WAR 3.5, plus .3 x 81 = 27.8 wins
So if you round up because of grit and TWTW, you get 28 wins. That’s more wins than the Sixers will get last year AND this year combined!
In other words, you need to make your pitch to LeBaseball while he’s still available.
If I pitched against that guy, all that WAR would turn into 42 WHITE FLAGS.
I think the most realistic (yet still obviously outlandish) scenario in creating Lebron James’ dominance in the form of a baseball player would be this:
An elite starting pitcher capable of starting all 162 games.
Felix Hernandez is on pace for roughly 8 WAR by ZIPS. 8 x 5 = 40.
Imagine your favorite team starts 2014 Felix Hernandez for every damn game of the season without fear of injury or the diminishment of stuff. That’s how much of an edge Lebron James provides on a basketball court, and it’s a lot easier to imagine that than a better peak Barry Bonds.
Sounds reasonable to me.
I agree , If you tried to something similar thing by letting a player bat 1st 4th and 7th you would have a problem with ghost runners. … Ghost runners do not show up on replay!
Our new improved GhostFX system will get the job done.
Kind of like how softball pitchers can pitch almost everyday
I think the player you’re looking for is Domingo Ayala.
Its definitely correct to double the WAR in my opinion, but WAR is probably worth less in basketball than baseball due to their higher standard deviation in winning percentage. A replacement level team in MLB would have a winning percentage of about .370 where in the NBA it would be something like .070 (obviously a made up number but you get the idea). So maybe the first calculation was more accurate.
He’d probably flame out in AA ball.
1) Is Lebron James a current basketball player or a hall of famer from another era?
2) If he’s a current player, is he a rookie with an unreasonably small sample size to establish his talent level?
2a) How many games does it take to establish true talent in basketball?
2b) How many games are there in a basketball season?
3) If he’s not a rookie, is this article considering his career performance or a peak year or something?
Just think how good Babe Ruth would have been if the Red Sox had played him in the outfield between starts in his first three years?
Of course I’d like to see LeBron play baseketball games every single day. Imagine if Clayton Kershaw could start every game? He’d be worth more than the 42 WAR LeBron. So basically Kershaw is better than LeBron and yes, in baseball that’s not enough. But get into a winner take all single game elimination, well then..
First comment I’ve seen that is pointing out the major flaw here. In basketball Lebron can deliberately choose to have more of an impact (i.e. take more of his team’s field goal attempts) whereas Trout can only hit when his turn in the lineup comes up. If it were the free for all nature of basketball Trout could conceivably take 15-20 of his team’s at bats roughly the equivalent % Lebron gets to take for his team. Starting pitchers are the closest thing to being able to do this in baseball – but as we all know they physically can’t do this but every 5th team game so their overall impact can’t be as big as an elite NBA player can.
Why not use how many standard deviations above the mean Lebron is and find a comparable WAR total for baseball? While Lebron is clearly the best player on the planet, his past season was only marginally better than Kevin Durant’s, if even that and other players like Chris Paul, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin put up similarly great seasons last year
I’m sorry, but the statistics you’re requesting cannot be computed on a 4-function calculator. You’ll have to make your own website.
Labron is still far better than those players for his versatility and ability to make everyone better. Even still, all those basketball player are far more valuable to their franchises than any baseball players.
Look at this: The Cavs odds to win a title went from 100:1 to 3:1 with Labron. Trout can barely get his team to the playoffs, much less instantly make ANY team in baseball THE odds on favorite to win a championship. Its not a knock on Trout, just that the sports are different and every star basketball player is incredibly important.
Trout can’t take half of his team’s AB…Lebron can. If you apply the nature of basketball to baseball Trout could easily average 15-20 at bats a game (think of Lebron being able to shoot half his teams field goals a night). That is the huge difference here and why Lebron is much, much more valuable to his team but it has more to due with the nature of his sport. I’m sure you’d find Trout could have as big if not more of an impact if he could average 15-20 at bats a game.
why not have LeBasebron be a catcher instead of a SS who catches every single game he’s not pitching? (or if he can be bugs bunny, catch his own pitches).
So what would the resulting stat lines actually look like?
What would Jordan’s imaginary WAR have been under these two calculations?…and what was his actual WAR when he played baseball (can you do that if he never made it to the bigs?)
But the real question is:
Would LBJ be better than Joe Cooper in BASEketball?
The difference between the sports is that in basketball it is easier for an individual “take over” a game simply because they can elect to create more opportunities for their team. This means that Lebron could technically take everyone of his teams shots (if needed). Unfortunately, Mike Trout can only have a chance to contribute offensively when his spot in the order comes up. Think if the Angels could let Trout just walk up to Hank Conger mid-at bat, take his bat and finish off the at bat for him. This is essentially what an NBA player can do on any offensive possession.
Because of this you see a value inflation in a sport like basketball and why the Cavs can instantly become favorites to win the title next season. Quarterbacks have the same effect in the NFL and starting pitchers do as well – the only difference is that they normally only get to do so every 5 games. The flip side would be much cooler to see how valuable Trout would be in a sport like basketball where he could have say 50% of his teams at-bats (~15-20 at bats a game!).
Super player could also start every 5th day in addition to playing the field the other four days.
Wouldn’t be hard for LeBron to be better at baseball than Jordan was.
On March 4, 1994, Michael Jordan appeared in a game wearing a White Sox uniform for the first time. With No. 45 on his back, he tapped a comebacker to Rangers pitcher Darren Oliver, who tagged the NBA legend out unassisted. While MJ played with the big club during spring, he played the entire ’94 season with the Double-A Birmingham Barons, never played in a regular season MLB game, and returned to dominating basketball the next year.
His baseball career may have been brief, but it’s certainly stuck in the public memory. Here’s a brief look back at his White Sox days on the 20th anniversary of his first appearance.
I like the concept. If we’re being serious, we should probably measure how much better Lebron is than the league in general. Plot the players, how many standard deviations is he above everyone else and how far is he above the second best player (Durant). Then do the same with MLB.
You can use the difference between average and replacement as a simple proxie for this.
AFAICT the replacement level basketball team gets 10 wins.
Thus the hypothetical average full time player in basketball is worth 31/5 or 6.2 wins.
Lebron is 3.38 times that good. He’s well above average.
The average starter in baseball is worth 2 WAR, but he’s not full time which I assumed and used above. A hypothetical full time average baseball player is worth about 2.38 wins.
Multiply by the 3.38 multiplier we got for Lebron, and you get almost exactly 8 WAR.
So Lebron is an upgrade on replacement in the NBA by about the same amount that a 8 WAR player is an upgrade in Baseball. Looked at this way, you can see why Lebron is the best player in the NBA but not head and shoulders above the field.
The take home from this for me is what stats it would take to make a 20 or 40 WAR player, otherwise it is kind of a silly exercise.
If a basketball player outperformed the field to the extent 2002 baseball Bonds did and then we back calculated what his WAR would be as a baseball player it would surely be greater than the Lebrawn calculations posted here.
Yea, but what about baseketball?
42… the answer to life, the universe… and everything.
Let’s say we take all NBA players whose 2014-2015 WAR was 0 or higher. There’s 302 of them. They have an average WAR of 3.28 and a standard deviation of 3.68.
Let’s say we take all MLB players whose 2014 WAR was 0 or higher. There’s 232 of them (I wish there was 300). They have an average WAR of 2.2 and a standard deviation of 1.8.
At 19.83 WAR, Steph Curry’s WAR was 4.5 standard deviations above average (this is also known as z-score, I think). If you translate this to baseball’s average and standard deviation, it would put him at 10.2 Baseball WAR. Seems pretty reasonable to me, maybe a little high because of the greater variance in playing time in the NBA (allowing for more variance in one’s WAR). If we compared WAR rates in each sport, I suspect Curry would have a smaller z-score in a metric like that.
I don’t get the point of trying to make Lebron James get the share of playing time in the MLB that he has in the NBA (that’s basically what was accomplished in this article). I’d rather compare his skills relative to his peers, and compare that to what an equally skilled baseball player would look like. And my initial analysis here is that Steph Curry, the NBA’s best player this year, was about equal to Mike Trout’s best year a few years ago.