Let’s Pick a Side: Altherr or Schwarber?
You probably don’t need much of an introduction to Kyle Schwarber. His story has been told numerous times, and he gained legendary status through his late-season return from ACL surgery, hitting .412 in the World Series to help the Cubs end their 108-year World Series drought. Schwarber is probably one of the most well known young players in baseball.
Depending on how frequently you read FanGraphs, you may be aware of Aaron Altherr. Jeff wrote about him in March when he was having a strong spring, trying to earn more time than his slotted 4th outfielder job on the Phillies would give him, and I wrote about his breakout performance last week. But while Altherr has gotten some notice for his strong performance the last few weeks, he’s still a relatively obscure young outfielder.
But despite their significantly different levels of recognition, they may be more similar than their reputations would suggest. So today, I wanted to do something of a thought experiment, and gauge how our readership sees the pair, as of May 16th, 2017.
Both were rookies in 2015, putting up strong debut seasons in a little less than half-a-season’s worth of playing time. Both got hurt and had lost years in 2016. Both are currently starting in left field for their respective clubs this year, though Altherr began the year as a reserve, and is only now starting to play everyday after forcing his way into the line-up.
Let’s start by just looking at their career Major League numbers to this point.
| Name | PA | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aaron Altherr | 492 | 11% | 28% | 0.198 | 0.309 |
| Kyle Schwarber | 438 | 14% | 28% | 0.211 | 0.264 |
| Name | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ |
| Aaron Altherr | 0.238 | 0.338 | 0.436 | 0.336 | 109 |
| Kyle Schwarber | 0.219 | 0.338 | 0.430 | 0.336 | 110 |
To this point, everything is pretty similar. Both have shown patient approaches and contact issues that lead to both high walk and high strikeout totals, offsetting the latter with enough power to remain above-average hitters. Schwarber has shown a bit more power, while Altherr has run higher BABIPs, as he’s a right-hander who isn’t as easily shiftable as the left-handed Schwarber. Altherr also hits the ball at a lower launch angle than Schwarber, so he hits fewer high fly balls that are likely to be caught, which helps his BABIP but somewhat limits his upside ISO.
There are also a couple of factors not represented in these career lines, one for each that could reasonably argue that both players are better than these numbers suggest.
Altherr returned from a wrirst injury in 2016, playing poorly after getting back on the field, and it’s pretty easy to conclude that he wasn’t fully healthy last year, and that 227 of his career 492 PAs came while he was playing at less than 100%. While it’s not wise to throw those numbers out entirely, the lack of power he showed during that stretch can likely be somewhat explained as a result of his wrist issues. If he had stayed on the DL for the entire year, as Schwarber did while recovering from his knee injury, his career numbers would likely look even better.
For Schwarber, the numbers are his regular season totals, but when evaluating a player’s overall abilities, there’s no real reason to ignore his postseason performances. Those are not only the highest leverage at-bats a player gets in any year, but they also come against higher quality competition, and Schwarber has dominated in his two postseason runs, hitting .364/.451/.727 in 51 playoff PAs. If those had simply happened in the regular season, and thus were counted in his career line, he’d have a 121 wRC+ in 489 PAs instead of the 110 wRC+ in 438 PAs that are shown above.
So, both guys have had pretty strong offensive performances in the first part of their careers. Neither player has reached even a full season’s worth of playing time, so it’s not as easy to say that they are what their numbers say. And once you start to look back at their pre-MLB performances, Schwarber gains a pretty big edge.
Schwarber was the 4th overall pick in the 2014 draft, and destroyed minor league pitching on his way up the ladder. The lowest wRC+ he posted at any level was 166. He got to the big leagues after just about 600 minor league plate appearances, as the lower levels of professional baseball posed no real challenge to him.
Altherr was a 9th round pick in the 2009 draft, then had to repeat rookie ball after not hitting very well as an 18-year-old. He showed decent contact skills but minimal power in his first few years at the lowest levels, but then got dominated in 2011 when he was first exposed to full-season competition, putting up a 52 wRC+ in 163 PAs after getting to A-ball. He spent all of 2012 as a 21-year-old in low-A ball and still wasn’t great, putting up a 98 wRC+ in a league where he wasn’t young for the level.
He finally added some power in high-A in 2013, but then he put up an 87 wRC+ in his first exposure to Double-A as a 23-year-old. He cut his strikeout rate and increased his power in 2015, which got him from Double-A through Triple-A and to the Majors, but that was the first year in his minor league career in which he really hit at a high level.
So, from a longer-term view, there’s far more evidence that Schwarber can hit than that Altherr can. Schwarber’s hit against every level of competition he’s faced for years, while Altherr struggled until an age-24 breakout. Schwarber’s track record of offensive excellence is long and consistent; Altherr’s is very short and incongruous.
That’s where the case for Schwarber becomes pretty easy. The Major League numbers are only similar if you ignore what Schwarber has done in the playoffs, against high-quality pitching in games that matter the most, and his offensive strengths are supported by years of data, against every level of pitching he’s faced. Despite his early slump in 2017, we can be pretty confident that Kyle Schwarber is a good Major League hitter. There is far more uncertainty around that question with Altherr.
But that doesn’t mean Altherr doesn’t have a case himself. After all, the Majors are littered with good athletes who took a long time to get their swings straightened out, and became very different players after they figured out how to hit than they were before. And while we’ve only looked at career numbers so far, 2017 performance leans heavily in Altherr’s favor, as he’s put up a 194 wRC+ in comparison to Schwarber’s 78 wRC+ this year. The Statcast data supports the idea of him having legitimate power, and his plate discipline numbers and contact numbers are either similar or better than Schwarber’s across the board.
And, of course, we’ve only talked about offense so far. Schwarber is a 1B/DH playing left field because it’s where the Cubs can best hide his glove; Altherr appears to be a strong defensive outfielder who could play center if need be, and looks to be above average in either corner. While we only have 1,000 innings of data on Altherr and a little more than 500 on Schwarber in the OF, all the data points to the same conclusion; Altherr looks like an above-average defender, while Schwarber is probably below average.
Their career Statcast catch probability data, which should require the least amount of data to become somewhat informative, is below.
| Player | 5 Star | 4 Star | 3 Star | 2 Star | 1 Star |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aaron Altherr | 0% | 30% | 88% | 82% | 98% |
| Kyle Schwarber | 0% | 25% | 40% | 75% | 92% |
Catch probability is effectively just a speed metric, as a guy who positions himself better won’t have as many difficult plays to make, but it supports the idea that Altherr can cover more ground than Schwarber in the outfield.
Is the defensive difference enough to make up for the offensive gap? I don’t know! It depends on how big the offensive gap is, which depends a bit on how much weight you put on 2017 data, or at least, how little weight you put on Altherr’s lousy 2016 performance. And then, there’s the question of how heavily you factor in long-term track record, which clearly favors Schwarber. The projections that still see Altherr as a slightly below-average hitter remember that he didn’t hit very well in the minor leagues, and are factoring that into their forecasts.
But it’s interesting to me that we can even have this discussion, given how insane this would have sounded like a few months ago. Over the winter, Schwarber was an untradeable core piece on the best team in baseball, while Altherr was a fourth outfielder on one of the worst teams in the league, a franchise not actively trying to win in the short-term. Preferring Altherr to Schwarber would have sounded insane as recently as March. It’s now mid-May. Do we think things could really have changed enough in six weeks to make an insane-sounding comparison actually true?
I’m interested in hearing what you guys think. Has Schwarber’s slow start this year done anything to diminish your view of his potential? Has Altherr’s outstanding first 100 plate appearances of 2017 caused you to see him as a star in the making, or is that just small sample size overreaction?
To see what you guys think, I’ll end with a series of polls. I’ll combine the results, along with my brief conclusion, up in an InstaGraphs post tomorrow.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Pointless at this time
Do I already have Rizzo or someone like him signed to a long-term contract to play first base?
Yeah, I voted under the premise that if I didn’t already have a logjam at 1B, there might be one impending. If I grade them similarly, I’ll take the more defensively capable player.
At the very least, 1 is clearly more versatile defensively than the other.
First base seems like it would be his best defensive position given his body, but I believe I’ve read that he’s even worse there than in left field.
I’ve always wondered why they don’t put him in right. He has plenty of arm for it and the ball will find him a lot less out there.
Strange thing is, he’s not *that* bad in left according to the metrics. But I don’t have a lot of faith in his range. I think I pick Schwarber if I have a black hole at both positions. I don’t know what I would do if I had someone blocking him at 1st.
Agree that it’s rather surprising that Schwarber is so far at +1.7 UZR/150 in the OF, though the clear caveat is that we have less than 1 full season of data (567 innings in the OF) and that these metrics take about full 3 seasons to stabilize. With that same caveat on sample size, DRS doesn’t like him at all, however: -8 runs in the equivalent of about 63 games in the OF.
So in limited playing time we’ve got one system saying that he’s roughly a scratch LF, but another saying that he’s absolutely brutal: 20 runs per season (or about 2 WAR) below average at a position toward the left side of the defensive spectrum.
Nice write up on a comparison of the two players. I like what I see of Altherr so far. Hopefully the Phillies keep investing in him by giving him playing time, as he goes thru ups and downs as players with his hitting profile often do.
I’d probably lean slightly toward Altherr just because the defensive ability gives him a higher floor than Schwarber, and because Schwarber’s contact issues make me wonder if he’ll ever be more than an above-average hitter.
I am genuinely curious as to what you or any others would consider or define as contact issues? Does that mean too much swing and miss, low quality contact such as too many weakly hit balls in play, etc. His swinging strike % so far this year is slightly better than league average and his contact and Z contact %’s are within 1% of league average. It seems to me from watching a fair amount of his AB’s his higher than average K% this year is due to looking at too many pitches too close to the zone with 2 strikes, especially low in the zone and on the inner third.
Hindsight obviously, but I really think the Cubs missed a window to sell high on Schwarber, back at the end of 2015 when he’d gone on that great post callup run. It seemed obvious then that he didn’t really have a spot on an NL team, particularly one stacked like the Cubs were going to be, but they were still making noises like he was untouchable.
Now they’re stuck with a platoon bat who’s played two innings at catcher since then, isn’t a great solution in the outfield, and is creating roster inflexibility on a team that loves moving players around the field. Yes, he’ll hit better than he has been this year, but not the 132 WRC he had from 2015.
But Schwarber’s occupying left field means one less rotation spot for all the guys who do have defensive value/flexibility. Heck, think about where the team would be if they hadn’t been more willing to give up Gleyber Torres to the Yankees than they were an injured Schwarber. Remember the Yankees were rumored to be asking for Schwarber for Miller at the time and the Cubs were rumored to have rejected that.
Counterpoint: Flags fly forever.
Yeah, hard to say ‘what if’ on these things, but if you replaced Schwarber and Chapman on the 2016 Cubs with Andrew Miller you’re still looking at a team that could win the W.S (course, who knows who they would’ve been playing since Miller basically carried the Indians in the ALCS!)
Have you ever read Sound of Thunder, by Ray Bradbury? If I’m a Cubs fan, I don’t mess with the timeline.
They could’ve sold very high just this past offseason. His world series performance (and of course the result) justified keeping him for 2016.
I thought the Schwarber for Miller trade was the great deal that didn’t happen. The Cubs get their man for a stretch run with a guy that wouldn’t likely help them, plus a couple other seasons too. The Yankees get a guy who long-term will hit 40 bombs a year playing half his games in Yankee stadium. Flags fly forever, and the Cubs don’t have to keep a first baseman in left field. Much less force him to bat leadoff (which I am still convinced is messing with his head, even if logically it shouldn’t).
And the fact is, there have been issues with Schwarber for a while. I think it was Tony Blengino who noted that with his batted ball profile, teams would shift the heck out of him and destroy his BABIP. Blengino has a way of saying things I dismiss and later find out was very prescient, and this time was no different.
That said, it is really hard to find a guy who hit that well, and that young. The projections love him in spite of his current batting line. I think it’s probably too early to write him off as a platoon bat. He’s young, and he’s struggling, and that’s not unusual.
I wonder if the Yankees really would have taken Schwarber over Torres in either of those deals. I’m sure they wouldn’t do that if they were asked today.
It’s interesting to look back at this:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/yankees-trade-aroldis-chapman-cubs.html
The gist of it seems to be the Cubs basically said “well, if you’re not budging on Schwarber for Miller we’ll send you Torres + for Chapman”
Apparently, it was Dave who wrote it and not Tony. Whoops.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-value-of-kyle-schwarber/
Still schwarber. I know with the swing revolution it seems anyone can become a power hitter but schwarber is two years younger and has a much better track record of power hitting than altherr.
I do think cubs fans overrated schwarber expecting him to become babe ruth and his lowish contact was always real despite BABIPing himself but I could see him becoming a 260/360/500 hitter with 35 HR. I think altherr has improved but not all of that will stick.
Now schwarbers defense plays him down but I still think he is like a 3.5 WAR player going forward.
Now the defense could close the gap if schwarber is really adam dunn kind of bad in the OF. If altherr can be a 105 wRC+ guy going forward schwarber would probably need like a 125 wRC+ to match his value but with the bat only I have no doubt it will be schwarber.
Still the cubs might be better off trading schwarber because he loses like 15 wRC+ points in the field and as a DH he could have more value for an AL team. But I don’t think now is the time, they need to wait for him to get his value back up to make him the headliner for a trade for a young and cost controlled ace which is what the cubs need in the next two years.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention at all that Schwarber is over 2 years younger. It’s certainly not the only thing or even main thing to take into consideration but if the whole point is who would you rather have going forward I think age is pretty relevant.
Schwarber may be younger but he also has a pretty significant knee injury on his ledger. Not sure if it “makes up” for the age gap but it’s definitely not a positive
Definitely a fair point, I have no idea how much consideration to put into that but it’s certainly worth mentioning.
I don’t consider that an issue at all. He’s already come back and looks no worse for wear. The injury was a freak occurrence too, so there’s no particular reason to fear a recurrence.
I think the fact that his hitting numbers are down is more reflective of his ability when he’s not on a hot streak. He’s had quite a few stretches that look just like his season to date with a few weeks mixed in where he looked like a little bambino.
Given that it’s a joint injury, there’s always going to be fear of reoccurrence. Injuries that severe don’t go away. I broke my left wrist at 12 and more than a decade later it’s still stiff and awkward when I start putting a lot of wear on it. I had to leave a few games in college because of it, even though it’s my glove hand. At the very least, it’s going to start nagging at him once he gets older.
You just done ticked off some Schwarber suckers!
You also did not mention baserunning, another category in which Altherr has a very significant advantage over Schwarber.
The article fails to reference the age difference between the two, which makes a big difference in future value. If the two were the same age I’d give a slight edge to Altherr because of the better baserunning and defense.
schwarber has been significantly unlucky over the past two weeks over which he’s carried a .115 BABIP. over that time span he has the highest hard contact % of anyone on the Cubs, and by far. not only that but 50% of all batted balls have been fly balls with only 35.7% of them being ground balls. and his infield fly ball % is not too far from average. in fact over that two week stretch, Schwarber and Altherr’s batted ball profiles are very similar, yet Altherr has a .368 BABIP and his home run to fly ball ratio is 50%!
also of note is that over the past two weeks Schwarber has a 17% walk rate and 20% strikeout rate and even a .243 ISO, so it’s not even contact issues as of late, yet for some reason he’s carrying a .115 BABIP and the lack of hits falling in have kept his overall numbers down. but there is absolutely nothing to indicate that his skill has diminished recently, and really based on the quality of his AB’s it is astounding that he hasn’t been amongst lead leaders in offense as of late.
To be fair, when you pull that much they better leave the stadium. A .115 BABIP is almost certainly luck (virtually anything below .200 is unheard of over the course of a season) but Dave pointed out that hitting the ball hard is a prerequisite and not a guarantor of success in that situation.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-value-of-kyle-schwarber/
I’m new to the star ratings for catches but shouldn’t an MLB outfielder catch 100% of 1 star flyballs?
1 star plays have a catch probability of 95%-98%. A routine flyball would have a catch probability of 100%, and you are right, any MLB outfielder should catch that every time. It’s essentially a “0 star” catch so it’s not included.
That was really interesting. Please post a follow up at year’s end or beginning of next year if you think of it.
I think it’s unfair to compare Schwarber in OF (although admittedly Altherr should end up being better) since the position is not something he’s had much experience with. I think by year’s end we’ll know exactly what to expect of Kyle and I’d settled for very slightly below average.
What’s missing from your write up is exit velocity probabilities. Kyle is killing the ball leading many of us to believe he’s near .300 hitter when the curve settles.
You also didn’t compare nicknames. I’m not sure Altherr has a chance against The Hulk WARbear.
I’m pretty sure that Dave Cameron has written previously about how unlikely it is for Schwarber to be a high average hitter in the majors, because his profile is a LH pull hitter with a strikeout rate of 25% or higher. So he strikes out a lot, and he’s also going to be frequently hitting into defensive shifts. Schwarber could still put up above average OBP numbers because he also walks more than 10% of the time, and he also obviously profiles to hit for a lot of power.
But a player such as Joey Votto – to pick a high average (.312 for career) and high OBP (.424 for career) LH hitter – strikes out less than Schwarber (Votto’s career strikeout rate is 18.3%) and only pulls the ball about 35% of the time (versus 45% or more for Schwarber).
I thought it was Tony Blengino, but you’re right–it was Dave.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-value-of-kyle-schwarber/
I admit I didn’t think much of it at the time, but I really understand what Dave was talking about now.
I’ve always felt like the odd man out in the Cubs world because I just can’t see the value in Kyle Schwarber. I openly campaigned for him to be traded to the Yankees for Andrew Miller last summer because it seemed like the perfect deal for everyone. Andrew Miller is the type of weapon that doesn’t come available often and would have filled a desperate need for the Cubs, not just for the WS run but for two more years after that. Schwarber as a Yankee is the absolute best situation he could ever be placed in.
I know it is easy to get blinded by mammoth homers and what Schwarber did in the World Series, but ultimately Schwarber is a bad body catcher turned outfielder who can neither catch nor play outfield. Sure the potential for 30-40 homers and a great OBP is always there, but with his contact issues that would be the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that he is exactly what he is right now at the plate… with miserable defense.
Even if Schwarber splits the difference and settles somewhere in between, that is a totally fine player but he isn’t really moving the needle.
In a vacuum, I think I’d still take Schwarber over Altherr because there is that great upside potential even if it seems like a long shot to get there. In their current situations, I probably take Altherr. Schwarber is just not someone who is going to survive NL baseball. It took the AL winning the All-Star Game, giving the Indians home field advantage and the Cubs an extra game of DH for Schwarber to even have that impact in the World Series. I think that might be a good representation of his career prospects.
This is really well-said, but it’s worth noting that if you think Schwarber’s a DH-only then it’s going to be really hard to find a fit for him (although I still agree that in a vacuum I take Schwarber)
Yeah the problem with Schwarber is that his value will never be higher than it was last year. His athleticism can only diminish, and with his body and one totally rebuilt knee, it could diminish very quickly despite being just 24.
Even if you make the argument that at just 443 PA in his MLB career there is a ton of room to grow with the bat as he gains experience, he still has to stand somewhere on the field. The best you can hope for is that he’s a zero in LF. If he can be a zero in LF, his bat plays anywhere. That’s a huge if though. If he’s as bad in LF as everyone assumes he will be, he’d have to mash to break even. Someone like Altherr would have a lot more room for error.
If I’m expansion drafting an AL club from scratch or I was a rebuilding AL club, I’d take Schwarber any day of the week over players far better than Aaron Altherr. But right now, in the league and situations we’ve got, I just don’t see it for Schwarber. Even after he hit a ball about 850 feet tonight.
I like this idea of “in an expansion draft” as the scenario. It’s as close to a vacuum as you can get.
Negative 132 surely must be a site record? Does this mean no one else thinks it’s pointless at this juncture….I keed i keed. :c-)
I actually do think it’s too early for this–it may not be pointless, but we shall see campers.