Marco Gonzales Is Concerned With Changes in Baseball
When I interviewed Marco Gonzales in spring training 2018, the now 32-year-old Pittsburgh Pirates southpaw was with the Seattle Mariners and about to establish himself as a solid big league starter. We discussed his return to health — he’d undergone Tommy John surgery two years prior — as well as his repertoire. We also touched on his approach on the mound, a subject we’d earlier addressed in a 2014 conversation when he was a St. Louis Cardinals pitching prospect. At the time, Gonzales was your prototypical crafty lefty, and he’s remained just that throughout his career.
The former Mariners’ player rep for the MLBPA has a lot of opinions on the game he’s played professionally since 2013, when the Cardinals drafted him 19th overall out of Gonzaga University. Not surprisingly, the increase in arm injuries is of particular interest, as is the pitch clock.
Gonzales, who has since landed on the 15-day injured list with a left forearm muscle strain, sat down to discuss those topics at Pittsburgh’s PNC Park earlier this month.
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David Laurila: We talked back in 2018 when you were with the Mariners. Are you the same pitcher now that you were then?
Marco Gonzales: “No. You’re never the same pitcher you were, even if you think you are. You might have a similar identity — you always have an identity as a player — but you change physically, emotionally, mentally. Your maturity on the mound changes. Your thought process changes, and in turn, that changes what you can do on the mound.
“The pitches I throw haven’t added or subtracted, but how I think about them, how they move, and how I’ve used them has changed a lot. Year to year, week to week, there are changes. That’s part of baseball. For whatever reason, sometimes a pitch doesn’t come out the same way it usually does and you have to use it differently, or maybe manipulate it more.”
Laurila: How much have the changes been data driven?
Gonzales: “That’s a great question. I would say that in the last couple of years, it’s become more data driven. However, there is always an organic development, and an organic learning. As a human being and a competitor, you’re constantly growing and changing, so there is an organic part to it.”
Laurila: That said, what has been your most notable data-driven change?
Gonzales: “I would say my cutter. I’m always aware of what the horizontal movement is. I want it to cut — I want it to go in to a righty — and when it’s not cutting, maybe I’m not finishing it right, or maybe the grip needs to change slightly. It’s just little adjustments here and there.”
Laurila: Can you feel subtle differences in baseballs?
Gonzales: “If you’re an expert in something, you notice a difference. Right? You notice different weights. You notice different dimensions of seams. I don’t know the interior of the baseball, but the exterior has changed. The seams used to be very, very small, very, very tight. It was almost like a cue ball. It was a very, very smooth feeling; you didn’t really feel the seams. Now they have ridges. The aerodynamics of it, the way the ball travels — I mean, that’s going to change it. I don’t know how much it’s affected me, but I do know that your pitches tend to change sometimes. You can see it in the data.
“I’ve probably held a million baseballs in my life. I mean, as a person who holds a lot of balls — for lack of better words — I can tell you very minuscule details that are different. I have to. Think about how precise we have to be with throwing them, how much we have to spin and locate — especially for a pitcher like myself. I don’t throw overly hard, so I have to be precise. I have to rely on movement [and] deception. So, of course I know every inch of that baseball.”
Laurila: You’re atypical to the current trend in that you’re a… soft tosser is maybe not the right way to put it.
Gonzales: “Crafty. But yes, I throw 90. I’m a dying breed.”
Laurila: With that in mind, a number of guys who do throw really hard have been going down with elbow injuries. At the same time, you had Tommy John surgery despite not being a hard thrower.
Gonzales: “Yes, I had TJ in 2016. I mean, look, we pushed back on reducing the clock this year. We — the players — pushed back on initiating the clock, and we pushed back again this year when they wanted to decrease the time on the clock. Each time, MLB has overpowered our vote and went on with it. We raised serious safety concerns over the decrease in time. There are guys that need more time, or at least need to not be rushed. Especially in between innings for relievers. We pushed back on that too, and they decreased it.
“The Players Association has [four out of 11] votes. I don’t know if people know that or not. Rule changes are a [majority] vote. We voted unanimously no on all of the new rules this year, and they went through. I think there should be more accountability with changes to the game.
“So, I think that it would be foolish to not look at that as a primary concern. That’s one of the biggest changes to pitchers in this game, introducing the clock. We’re seeing a [rise] in injuries. I think that correlates.”
Laurila: Do you buy the idea that the rise of splitters and/or sweepers is a contributing factor?
Gonzales: “Look, guys throw harder and spin the ball faster than ever before. Guys are getting bigger and stronger — guys are learning how to get bigger and stronger — and that’s another thing. If you throw harder, and you spin the ball faster, well, that is more taxing on your arm. I’m not saying that’s not the primary cause, either. I think there are multiple causes. I also think it can be different for each individual person.
“It can happen to anybody. Throwing a baseball overhand isn’t healthy, no matter how hard you throw. But it would be foolish to not look at the pitch clock and the changes in training. With the baseballs themselves, it would be intriguing to do further investigation into how baseballs have evolved in this game and what effect that has on arms.”
David Laurila grew up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and now writes about baseball from his home in Cambridge, Mass. He authored the Prospectus Q&A series at Baseball Prospectus from December 2006-May 2011 before being claimed off waivers by FanGraphs. He can be followed on Twitter @DavidLaurilaQA.
“as a person who holds a lot of balls — for lack of better words” – amazing quote. Jokes aside, always interesting to hear from the players on the subtleties of the game. I never knew that the players can effectively get steamrolled in implementing these rule changes. While I’m skeptical that the pitch clock is actually driving pitcher injuries, I do think MLB should listen to their concerns and at least put a pause on reducing the pitch clock limits even more.
I get the players being frustrated with the pitch clock but there is no definitive data showing it increased pitchers injuries (admittedly not a lot of data yet). However, there is undeniable data showing that as velocity and spin have increased over the last 15+ years so have injuries.
Quite simply, if you want to not get injured, don’t throw max effort. But good luck pitching in MLB and not throwing max effort.
I wish players could just admit that they are accepting the risk of throwing max effort. I would too if it meant an MLB career. I don’t think anyone is judging them. Guys in the NFL accept much greater (and longer term) risk.
Every pitcher that I have heard discuss the topic knows the risks inherent in throwing max effort. Obviously this is not an activity leading to an injury free career. But the point is that given that there is so much inherent risk, how can adding to that risk be good for baseball. Pitching injuries add nothing to baseball that is beneficial. Baseball is seemingly both worried to the impact of pitcher injuries to the product and potentially making the problem worse because it wants to cut a minute or two from average game time.
The pitch clock has carved a huge chunk from average game time. I doubt subtracting a few more seconds here and there is making much of a noticeable impact now.
But blaming the pitch clock is not accepting responsibility for the risk of throwing max effort (and again, I’d throw max effort too in pursuit of an MLB career). MLB needed to speed up the games. Attendance is up. MLB is providing an entertainment product and fans wanted a faster game with shorter breaks in action.
I don’t think there is anything MLB can do to significantly decrease pitcher injuries. You can’t make guys throw softer. And kids in high school/college are throwing harder and getting more TJS than ever before. I think this is a significant part of the problem that no one really talks about. Guys are arriving to pro ball with more accumulated wear/stress than previous generations.
It isn’t simple that not throwing max effort avoids injury. Gonzales is exhibit A. It is probably a contributing factor. If the choice is failing out of MLB with no guarantee of avoiding injuries or taking a greater risk to possibly stay in MLB or possibly get a big FA contract it’s understandable that many choose the latter.
I don’t see MLB deadening the ball or reducing roster size to increase emphasis on durability so it won’t get better. Arm injuries aren’t CTE so the risk is acceptable to players. MLBPA can deflect by complaining about pitch clock whether it’s effective or not because they don’t want the changes more likely to reduce the max effort incentive. Gonzales offered no other suggestions
The only thing likely to keep pitchers pitching is medical technology that strengthens ligaments. Any experimental procedure will get lots of volunteers who don’t want TJS. If the procedure allows the player to throw harder, say 110 mph we have a performance enhancement issue. It’s possible that pitchers will then throw 115 and take the same risk they’re taking now
I don’t think it’s at all safe to assume that just because a guy throws 90 that he isn’t still going max effort. With the significant increases we’ve seen in league wide average velocity over the last 20 year I think you have to assume that everyone is maxing out (the alternative is falling behind your peers).
Well he was asked about the TJS despite not being a hard thrower and he didn’t say one way or the other whether he considers himself max effort. It’s probably hard to self diagnose
The worse argument is in suggesting that lowering the pitch clock even further this year is an even bigger detriment when MLB did it because the average pitcher was taking well below the 18 seconds they reduced it to, closer to 12 seconds.
I get arguing the pitch clock is part of the problem, but when people try to argue that losing that 2 seconds that the vast majority of pitchers weren’t utilizing just makes you look like you have an agenda because you’re overlooking the obvious.
This max effort discussion is such a waste. Everyone who gets to the top of their profession is a driven, competitive person who always go full throttle. You can’t be that successful without going hard.
Going hard doesn’t mean max velocity or max spin etc. it means competing your best on every pitch
Pitching is hard on arms. Always has been and always will be. The issue to me is the obvious abuse of young arms from age 10-20.
“ “The Players Association has [four out of 11] votes. I don’t know if people know that or not. Rule changes are a [majority] vote. We voted unanimously no on all of the new rules this year, and they went through. I think there should be more accountability with changes to the game.”
Democracy in the bravest, freest society (according to literally only itself) in the history of history
I interpreted his “people don’t know” comment as that many baseball fans aren’t aware the PA gets only 4 out of 11 votes.
I would say most baseball fans don’t know there is a committee.
I don’t know how many commenters here are creatures of habit – maybe not most. But it seems like baseball players are. And as someone who has a definite routine day after day, week after week, I can feel it physically when there’s a disruption.
Pitching is already dangerous on its own. And these guys have distinct routines they’ve cultivated since they were children. It’s not even that it’s one thing – the ball, the clock, the clock again – necessarily. I think most of the players are reacting because of the changes to their routine. And, in turn, that’s adding stress to an already dangerous task.
Everyone can say ‘there’s no data’ until they’re blue in the face. But if 90% of people are saying these changes are making a difference (and that might be low, if you read the various articles and comments floating around out there), maybe the changes are less important than keeping the players we all enjoy watching happy.
The reason commenters are citing lack of evidence that changing pitch clock times or removing them would solve the problem is that the problem existed before 2023. Commenters would prefer that MLB and MLBPA focus on figuring out the primary problem and fix it. As you say, we have no control over their actions.
Listening to people’s opinions regarding changes/new things, often isn’t the best way towards progress. Hitters resisted batting helmets. Then they resisted helmets with ear flaps. The pitch clock is not a safety issue on par with batting helmets, but I’m on board with listening to people and making modifications based on their feedback, but otherwise unilaterally instituting change or you’d be stuck in one spot forever.
Tim Raines was the last player to wear a helmet without ear flaps. Long before he retired the “new” helmet rules were fully accepted. Popular or not that change needed to be made. MLB decided game time needed to be addressed. Popular or not, they instituted a change and I’ve seen no evidence based constructive arguments against the pitch clock.
Is it better or worse that pitchers don’t need to wait as long between innings? For —ever— we have heard announcers note concern about pitchers coming in cold after long innings in the dugout. I use that as an example of how many moving parts there are here.
I’m like most people, in the camp that increased velocity and spin is the biggest villain here, and that the time severed off games is likely worth it once the data is in and we can do the calculus.
A perfect example of why you can’t just trust what these guys believe is what he mentions about the pitch clock being reduced this year. The clock was adjusted from 20 seconds to 18 seconds with runners on base. That’s the only pitch clock change that happened this year, and it was done because literally no one was using up to 18 seconds, the average time was like 12 seconds with runners on. So anyone claiming the change to the pitch clock this year makes it even worse is either ignorant to the change, or intentionally ignoring the fact that the change effected almost no pitchers.
Because the pitch clock is so popular, it seems like people are resistant to any premise that says it does something bad. It’s incredibly obvious that it is worse for pitchers to have less recovery time between pitches.