Rob Manfred Hammers the Astros
Consider the book thrown at the Astros. On Monday, commissioner Rob Manfred announced the results of MLB’s investigation into allegations pertaining to the Astros’ electronic sign-stealing efforts in 2017, the year they won the World Series, and handed down a set of sanctions that together form the most severe punishment administered to a single team since Judge Landis banned eight White Sox players for life in 1921. In this instance, no players were banned or even suspended; instead, Manfred took aim at the Astros’ braintrust, suspending both president of baseball operations Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch for the 2020 season but deferring punishment for bench coach Alex Cora, the most directly involved non-player, pending the results of a similar investigation into the 2018 Red Sox’s actions. Additionally, the team was stripped of four high draft picks and fined $5 million, the maximum amount allowed under MLB’s constitution. Finally, former Astros assistant general manager Brandon Taubman was placed on baseball’s ineligible list.
In announcing his decision via a 10-page report (PDF here), Manfred confirmed and elaborated upon a November report by The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich that the Astros systematically used their video replay system in an attempt to decode opposing teams’ signs and relay them to the team’s hitters via a trash can-based system of signals. The report was based on interviews with 68 individuals as part of this investigation plus an additional nine interviews related to Taubman’s inappropriate conduct towards female reporters during the team’s ALCS victory celebration.
As I wrote last week, MLB’s failure to anticipate the consequences introduced by the creation of video replay rooms in connection with the adoption of the instant replay review system in 2014 has echoes of the league falling behind in addressing the influx of performance-enhancing drugs in the 1990s. Both issues centered around highly competitive players crossing into gray areas while looking for that extra edge, but because of the key differences in the two issues — mainly the protection of the players’ union and the need for a collectively bargained system of testing and suspensions when it came to PED usage — commissioner Bud Selig never had the chance to bring the hammer down on PED users with the force that Manfred applied here. This is a hefty and impactful set of punishments that asserts the commissioner’s authority and is designed to deter other teams from similar behavior, but it won’t be the last set of them given the investigation into the Red Sox and the possibility of further inquiries. Various decisions within Manfred’s purview on this won’t please everyone, but since when has any commissioner managed to do so?
In the report, Manfred laid out a timeline for the Astros’ gradually more elaborate efforts to steal signs using electronic equipment, a practice broadly prohibited by MLB rules but not strictly enforced at the time, and one that arose with the introduction of reviewable replays. The Astros’ efforts “with the exception of Cora [were] player-driven and player-executed,” and began early in the 2017 season, with a simple system where employees in the team’s video replay room viewed live footage from the center field camera, then decoded and relayed the sign sequence to the dugout. From there it was signaled to a runner on second base, who would transmit the signal to the batter. Soon Cora began calling the replay review room to obtain the signals, and on some occasions the information was delivered via text messages on smart watches or cell phones.
Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including designated hitter/outfielder Carlos Beltrán, suggested improvements to the system, and Cora arranged for a monitor showing the center field feed to be placed in the tunnel near the dugout. After decoding the sign from that monitor, “a player would bang a nearby trash can with a bat to communicate the upcoming pitch type to the batter.” The practice continued through the end of the regular season and the postseason, and into 2018, even after Manfred issued a stern warning to all 30 teams on September 15, 2017, in the wake of separate allegations regarding the Red Sox engaging in their own abuse of the system. At that time, Manfred also issued a memorandum to all teams specifically stating that any future use of electronic equipment to steal signs would be taken “extremely seriously,” with general managers and field managers held accountable for any violations of the rules.
In 2018, the Astros relocated their video replay review system closer to the dugout with MLB’s approval. The trash-can system fell by the wayside but the center field feed was still used to decode signs, with the information transmitted to the dugout via in-person communication. At some point during the 2018 season, the Astros stopped using the system because the players believed it was no longer effective. The investigation revealed no additional violations by the Astros since the introduction of on-site personnel to monitor team replay rooms during games, which began with the 2018 postseason and continued through 2019.
The full menu of discipline for the Astros is this:
- “One-year” suspensions for both Luhnow and Hinch, beginning on January 13, 2020 and running until the day after the conclusion of the 2020 World Series. Both were subsequently dismissed by owner Jim Crane in a press conference about an hour after Manfred issued his report.
- The loss of regular first- and second-round draft picks in both 2020 and ’21.
- A fine of $5 million, the maximum allowed under MLB’s constitution.
- The placement of Taubman on baseball’s ineligible list until the day after the completion of the 2020 World Series, when he will be eligible to apply for reinstatement.
Crane himself was not disciplined, except to the extent that the team took a substantial financial hit (more on which below). Nor were Beltrán, the lone position player mentioned in the report and now the manager of the Mets, or Cora, whose discipline will almost certainly be at least as severe as that of Hinch, and perhaps worse given his involvement with multiple teams after the 2017 warning. Manfred is leaving any disciplining of lower-level Astros employees to the team’s discretion. Crane told reporters that the team is still reviewing such actions; a larger housecleaning may be in store. Current bench coach Joe Espada, who replaced Cora after the 2017 season and who has been a candidate for several managerial openings in recent years, is the favorite to succeed Hinch, but it remains to be seen whether he’s viewed as having been tainted by the team’s 2018 sign-stealing efforts.
It’s all a lot to digest. What follows here is a breakdown of the punishments (and non-punishments) mentioned above, and excerpts of what Manfred said about the various parties in the report.
The Suspensions of Luhnow and Hinch
Per the report, Luhnow — who was the teams’ general manager until being promoted to president of baseball operations in June 2018 — “adamantly denie[d] knowledge” of the electronic sign-stealing efforts, and the investigation “revealed no evidence to suggest that Luhnow was aware of the banging scheme.” However, “The efforts involving the replay review room staff were mentioned in at least two emails sent to Luhnow, and there is conflicting evidence about conversations with Luhnow on the topic,” wrote Manfred. Regardless of his level of knowledge, Luhnow “failed to take any adequate steps to ensure that his Club was in compliance with the rules.”
Wrote Manfred:
“The Astros’ violation of rules in 2017 and 2018 is attributable, in my view, to a failure by the leaders of the baseball operations department and the Field Manager to adequately manage the employees under their supervision, to establish a culture in which adherence to the rules is ingrained in the fabric of the organization, and to stop bad behavior as soon as it occurred.”
While Hinch didn’t create the trash can system or participate in it, and while he told investigators he did not support it, and even twice physically damaged monitors to the point that they needed replacement, he also didn’t tell his players or Cora to stop, nor did he bring the issue to Luhnow’s attention. Wrote Manfred, “As the person with responsibility for managing his players and coaches, there simply is no justification for Hinch’s failure to act.” While the commissioner noted that Hinch indicated “remorsefulness,” he was being held accountable “particularly since he had full knowledge of the conduct and chose to allow it to continue throughout the 2017 Postseason.”
Ouch. As The Athletic’s Jayson Stark noted, only twice in baseball history has a sitting major league manager been suspended for at least a year. In April 1947, Dodgers manager Leo Durocher was suspended for a year by commissioner Happy Chandler for an “accumulation of unpleasant incidents” including associating with known gamblers and a scandalous extramarital affair. In August 1989, Pete Rose was banned for life in connection with his having gambled on Reds’ games.
Similarly, disciplining of executives is rare in the annals. In 1912, Phillies owner/president Horace Fogel was banned for life by the league for publicly blasting the integrity of NL president Thomas Lynch and the league’s umpiring, and declaring that the pennant race was “fixed.” In 1943, Phillies owner William Cox was banned for life for betting on his own team. More recently, Yankees owner George Steinbrenner was suspended twice, in 1974 (in connection with his conviction for illegal campaign contributions) and 1990 (for hiring Howard Spira to dig up dirt on Dave Winfield), and Reds owner Marge Schott once in 1993 (for offensive comments about Blacks and Jews); both were eventually reinstated. On Manfred’s watch, in 2017 he handed down lifetime bans to Cardinals scouting director Chris Correa (for hacking the Astros’ scouting database, a crime for which he was additionally sentenced to 46 months in federal prison) and Braves general manager John Coppolella (for infractions pertaining to the signing of amateur international players). Braves special assistant Gordon Blakeley was suspended from a year at that time as well. Last summer, Giants CEO and managing partner Larry Baer was suspended for about four months for violating the league’s domestic violence policy.
In a press conference shortly after the release of the report, Crane cited “higher standards for the city and the franchise” and fired both men, each of whom was under contract for multiple years beyond the suspension. Luhnow, hired by the Astros in December 2011, was signed through ’23, while Hinch, who was hired in September ’14, was signed through ’22. Together they had led the Astros to four postseason appearances, including not only the 2017 championship but also the 2019 AL pennant. That didn’t stop Crane. “Neither one of those guys implemented this or pushed it through the system, it really came from the bottom up,” said the owner. “But neither one did anything about it. That’s unfortunate and the consequences are severe.”
By the terms of their suspension, Luhnow and Hinch were already prohibited from doing any kind of work for the Astros or any other team during their suspensions, or from attending any major league, minor league, or spring training facility, so it’s not like they’re free to take other baseball jobs now. As to whether either will ever work in the game again, it’s far too early to say, but it’s worth noting that suspension was hardly a career-killer for Durocher. He returned to managing in 1948 (first with the Dodgers, then with the rival Giants), did so on and off through 1973, and was posthumously elected to the Hall of Fame in 1994.
Lost Draft Picks
From a financial standpoint, this is the most impactful aspect of Manfred’s punishment. Building on previous research and using a figure of $9 million per Win Above Replacement, last April Craig Edwards estimated the present day dollar valuation of the top 70 picks. For a team finishing with the best record in baseball and therefore picking 30th, as the Astros were slated to do, the present value of that pick is $10.1 million, while for the 70th pick — where such a team might draft again after the compensation and competitive balance picks are tacked on at end of the first round — that figure is $3.8 million. Double that (for two years) and that’s nearly $28 million in lost future value from those four picks alone, and perhaps more. A team finishing with, say, the sixth-best record in 2020 could receive picks 25 ($12.0 million) and 65 ($4.3 million) in 2021.
The report notes that if the Astros lose their first- or second-round pick by signing a free agent who was given a qualifying offer, they will forfeit said pick in the next draft in which they have one: “For the purpose of clarity, the Club will forfeit two regular first round selections and two regular second round selections in total.” This might actually be a very small lifeline for the Astros in terms of spreading out the impact of the punishment over a longer time period.
Manfred had included draft pick penalties in the aforementioned disciplining of the Cardinals and Braves. Along with Correa’s ban, the Cardinals lost their top two picks in the 2017 draft, both of which were awarded to the Astros, as was their $2 million fine. In addition to the Coppolella ban and the Blakeley suspension, the Braves lost a third-round pick, a slap on the wrist relative to those bans as well as their loss of rights to 13 prospects; the team also lost international bonus pool money.
Taubman and the culture
One frustrating element of the report is that Manfred did not find it necessary “to determine Taubman’s culpability for the Astros’ rules violations” due to the discipline he received for his inappropriate clubhouse conduct; the ex-assistant GM denied knowledge of the trash can and other schemes to transmit signs, though he was at the center of minor sign stealing-related confrontations with the Yankees and Red Sox. Even so, he’s out of baseball right now, and the game is better for it, and while he can apply for reinstatement, there’s nothing preventing Manfred from tossing it in the circular file.
Beyond that, Manfred did take aim at the culture within the team’s baseball operations department, calling the way it had manifested itself internally (regarding the way employees are treated) and externally (in relations with the media) “problematic,” adding:
“At least in my view, the baseball operations department’s insular culture – one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations, combined with a staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part, to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate response to that incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described in this report to have occurred.”
None of this may have been a major factor in either Manfred’s or Crane’s decision with regards to Luhnow given the severity of the sign-stealing issue. Nonetheless, the commissioner’s words are a welcome rebuke. Nobody should lament the breakup of this particular band.
Crane and the Players
Crane is certainly no saint, but Manfred reported that there was “absolutely no evidence” that the owner was aware of any of the conduct described in the report, adding that he was “extraordinarily troubled and upset” by his employees’ conduct, and fully supported the investigation. Manfred also noted that “Crane told Luhnow after the Red Sox discipline was announced [in 2017] that Luhnow should make sure that the Astros did not engage in similar conduct.”
Manfred found the Astros’ system to be mainly player-driven and executed, and wrote, “Most of the position players on the 2017 team either received sign information from the banging scheme or participated in the scheme by helping to decode signs or bang on the trash can.” Nonetheless, he did not assess discipline against individuals, calling it “difficult and impractical”:
It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.
But more importantly, the Club’s General Manager and Field Manager are responsible for ensuring that the players both understand the rules and adhere to them. Our office issues a substantial number of detailed rules and procedures to Clubs – many of which, including the sign stealing rules, are not sent directly to players. It is the obligation of the Club, and, in this case, the General Manager and Field Manager, to educate and instruct their players on the rules governing play on the field.
Manfred’s avoidance of player discipline may rankle some, but he’s not Judge Landis, with the ability to act unilaterally. Any attempt he made to suspend or ban players would have been challenged by the union and subject to appeal, whereas the parties he did discipline have no such recourse. Here it’s also worth remembering the likelihood that other teams were engaging in various attempts to steal signs, too; in their report on the Red Sox, Rosenthal and Drellich wrote, “As far back as 2015, the Yankees used the video replay room to learn other teams’ sign sequences, multiple sources told The Athletic. Other teams likely were doing the same.” As with the Mitchell Report, where an incomplete list of PED users was mentioned but not punished, this is an attempt to explain and expose what happened, and turn the page on this particular saga, for better or worse.
For those wanting Manfred to strip the Astros (and eventually the Red Sox) of their championships: please, this isn’t the NCAA or the Olympics, where results are vacated as if to pretend, “that never happened.” Yes, this is a regrettable mess, and it’s likely that many will refer to the Astros’ 2017 championship as tainted, and regard the players involved as cheaters — not unlike the way that the likes of Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds are treated when it comes to their home run exploits around the turn of the millennium. But as with the PED era, this mess is larger than a few individuals. It owes to an institutional failure, and aside from the fine levied, nobody is giving any of the money that the Astros and the league raked in while all of that was going on back, just as nobody from the Selig era gave back the windfall from the McGwire-Sosa home run chase of 1998. It’s an imperfect solution, but baseball goes on.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
So…. Beltran was a deserving player who was going to undeservedly struggle in HOF voting. That’s… that’s not going to help.
Darvish though they were stealing his signs.
Girardi got fired.
Altuve won MVP for a year in which his hitting improved in the middle of the year…. his eventual HOF case is also not being helped.
The Astros are going to get hit by a lot of pitches next year.
Regarding Girardi: It appears that a WS win was going to be the only thing that saved his Yankees gig. They were ready to move on, his contract was expiring, and they wanted to get younger and “more inexperienced” at the manager spot. Girardi was losing favor in that organization for a while
I agree, but he sure had a chance to win one if he hadn’t lost the ALCS to a team that seemed unstoppable at home…
You hit it right on the head. Girardi’s “gig” would have continued with a WS win.
The Altuve point is quite a stretch, unless you believe that his .512 BABIP in July and only July was influenced by cheating, but his other months weren’t. That’s taking a small sample over a short period (even if you want to extend that to his nice June) and assigning a definitive cause other than “random statistical junk”. It doesn’t hold water.
LOL anything that isn’t hammering the Astros is down-voted today. I gotcha.
This place is trash, you should know that, Chris. Chron level at times. I still get a kick out of Yordan Alvarez #6 prospect from their Astros prospect evaluators. Wait til we get to go roast every last one of these over-inflated fanbases for their own deeds. Better yet, I have better things to do with my time than to look outside our talented farm. We’ll put a silence to all this “What Astros Benefitted,” by proving 2015-12019 were no fluke. “Throwing the Book at them” — look in the mirror before you judge, people. When all Cora has to do is quit to avoid punishment for his team, it’s a sham operation by Manfred, and an Astros witch hunt. Get over yourselves for piddly a.. allegations in the 1st place. Basbeall has an opiode problem, tampering with the baseball, and treating minor leaguers like crap problem. Care about something relevant.
Lace up and let’s see whatcha got in 2020. Altuve will have every incentive since many suggest stripping him of the MVP. And they’ll turn the sound of those boo’s the same way Beltran always said it was like coming back to Houston, “as a sign of appreciation he was that good.”
Awesome parody or a reminder to not post when angry.
Rationalization 101.
He may be a comedy writer.
I’ve got news for you–Eric and Kiley and Dan and all the other writers hate every team, not just yours. At least, this is what I’ve learned from reading angry comments about “WHY IS MY CAN’T MISS PROSPECT ONLY FV46?!?”
Fangraphs is trash and yet you’re here reading. That makes a lot of sense, in a social media way.
That’s about the only sense I made out of your post, though, other than puffed up bravado and finger-wagging.
So sensitive.
@Justin
Unfort, none of this will happen. 10-20 years from now, people will vaguely remember a couple non-player suspensions for sign stealing.
What would MLB do if Astros players get hit by like 1 pitch per game next year? Like, not doing it more than once per game so as to escalate tensions, but that their players know in the back of their minds that someone at some point is getting drilled. Would MLB send out a memo to stop hitting Astros?
Heh.
Fun idea.
MLB would be hard pressed to do anything because it would be within tbe bounds of the unwritten laws. Players stealing signs by peaking get buzzed and even hint. So yes, it could happen.
It would fall primarily to the umps to act, which they can. Eject the starter right off.
But with openers willing to be guinea pigs it might happen. Not every game but once or twice each series…to the exact same player. That would be hard to do anything about.
Like I said, it would be fun to see if it happens.
It would never happen because of escalating fines and suspensions, not to mention that every single team besides the Astros (and Red Sox) get to look like relative heroes by simply playing the games. They’d have nothing whatsoever to gain except maybe a small piece of satisfaction. I’d rather have money or a full team than “revenge”.
USAGE NOTE FOR IMPACTFUL
Impactful is one of those words that somehow arouse intense disdain, especially among editors and other would-be guardians of English. According to its critics, the word exemplifies “bad, ugly usage.” They call it “barbarous,” dismiss it as “a meaningless buzzword,” and hate it so much that they extend their contempt of the word to contempt for its users. Some justify their scorn by saying that the word lacks the original meaning of the suffix -ful —“full of”— as in remorseful or wrathful. But impactful, when it entered English in the mid-1960’s, was formed and construed in the same way as other well-established adjectives ending in -ful. In fact, as the Oxford English Dictionary points out, the “full of” sense is considerably weakened in a large number of these -ful adjectives. Instead, the suffix is interpreted as “having” or “characterized by,” as in beautiful, lawful, or graceful. In other common adjectives, -ful can even be glossed as “causing feelings of,” as in wonderful and dreadful . Both of these senses of -ful work perfectly well with the noun impact.
The aversion to impactful is reinforced by the distaste some people have for its root impact, especially when that word is used as a verb. (See usage note at impact ). But if impactful is indeed derived from the verb rather than the noun—which is not a certainty—there is nothing ungrammatical about that. When added to a verb, -ful has the meaning “apt to” or “able to,” as in mournful, wakeful, forgetful, and worshipful. Impactful may eventually settle into the language in similar fashion.
In sum, impactful entered English as a normal part of language growth and change, and there is no legitimate linguistic reason to reject it. Although there are alternative words available, English welcomes synonymy. And although the negative reactions to impactful may well be further encouraged by a sense that it is commonly found in so-called business-speak or other jargon-filled contexts, in truth the word, from its beginnings, has also been recorded in reputable newspapers, magazines, academic journals, and books.
Nevertheless, the very fact that so many people have passionate, unyielding objections to impactful makes it advisable to think twice before using it in contexts where it might not be accepted. Perhaps its variant impactive, with exactly the same meaning, is less likely to raise hackles. However, the “-ive” form appears in print only about one-fourth as often as the controversial impactful.
What’s this gotta do with the article
I am a professional editor. Please shut up.
I actually appreciate the uncredited cut and paste here from Dictionary.com, I feel that it adds a lot to the dialogue.
Would you go so far as to say it was impactful?
It is “impacting hard,” in fact.
USE AN EXCELLENT NOTE
Impact is a special word that represents great dissatisfaction, especially among publishers and others who are mandatory English speakers. Critics say the word is an example – “ugly use, ugly”. They call it “wild”, “eliminate” nonsense “and hate their disdain for their users. Some people justify the pain by saying that the word is missing. suffix – “a lot” – as in the English entry in the mid-19s, established and agitated in the same way that addicts created. Yes, as the Oxford English Dictionary points out, the feeling “full of enough” to be considerably weakened. Instead, the suffix is interpreted as “yes” or “characteristic” as a thread of beauty, ugliness or grace. In other ordinary actions, it can even be “e ociranje emotions” as strong and scary. Both meanings have full anonymous influence.
Aversion to influence increases a person’s basic influence, especially when used as an action word. (See the note on the use of effects.) However, if the effect really comes from a verb rather than a verb – it’s not sure – there is no grammar. When added to a verb, it means “for” or “may”, as in grief, magic, forgetfulness and anxiety. The second effect can be resolved in the same language in the same way.
In general, influencing English is a normal part of language development and change and there is no good reason to eliminate it. Although there are alternative words, English welcomed the synonyms. Although the negative reaction to influence can be motivated by the feeling that it is often found in the affairs of Conti or in another context, in lexical practice, since its creation in the newspaper, magazines, academic journals and books popular.
However, the fact that many passionate people disagree with impact evaluations which you should think twice before using them in context may not be acceptable. The effect of variation, of the same meaning, is likely to be amplified. However, the “-ve” format only appears in a quarter of the print, usually a controversial effect
WTH are you even talking about?
What the hell is your point ?
Such an onslaught of words about impactful are migraine-inducing. I guess the intent here was to impact the brain?
Personally, I always had much more of a problem with “impacted.” I hate using impact as a verb. It has such a negative impact on my psyche.
Impacted as a verb should only be applied to teeth. 🙂
Wait, so “impactful” doesn’t mean “full of impact”?! That’s news to me. And since when is “impact” as a noun a “meaningless buzzword”? I ought to leave an impact on the skulls of those linguists and see if they still consider the word meaningless. Like you said, English loves synonymy, and the noun “impact” is a perfectly acceptable and common synonym for several different words through either its physical or figurative definitions, and there are absolutely no technical issues in its common usage (which extends well beyond business jargon) that would normally define a “buzzword.”
You seem a little confused so let me help you out.
Firstly, the poster didn’t say anything, he just copied a text from dictionary.com.
Secondly, the text is arguing for the acceptable use of ‘impactful’, not against it.
Thirdly, it says some say ‘impactful’ is a meaningless buzzword, not ‘impact’ as a noun. Now, as I said, the article is arguing for the usage of ‘impactful’, not against it, but in defense of people who don’t like ‘impactful’, how much is ‘impactful’ used beyond business jargon? “This paradigm shift presents an overall impactful sea change.”
Fourthly, the text doesn’t say that ‘impactful’ doesn’t mean “full of impact”, although it does seem to tacitly accept that that might be the case. However, it says that even if it doesn’t mean “full of impact”, there is still grammatical cause to accept its construction and usage. I think “full of impact” sounds very strange when one thinks about it. How can one be full of impact? Impact doesn’t seem to take up the mind or body such as wrath or remorse. Wrath and remorse are states that can inhabit a person. But that text argues that that shouldn’t matter because words like beautiful are common, and what does it mean to be “full of beauty”? We think of beauty as a characteristic of a person, object, etc., not as a state that inhabits it. Impact seems to be the same way. Then the text further argues that even if ‘impactful’ were formed from the verb ‘impact’, there are other examples in English of -ful words being formed in similar ways.
I’m not sure how this is a worser punishment than the Braves got – I’d actually argue it’s not. MLB went light here, and the Astros leadership accepted no responsibility while blaming the one guy who wasnt with the organization anymore (Cora). How convenient. Hinch and Luhnow both passed the buck despite being in charge.
Similarly to the PED scandal, accountability escapes everyone involved.
Astros should have lost international money as well.
Yeah, I think it’s probably a fine punishment considering there is really no precedent for this, but I do wonder how much this will affect the Astros in 2020. Their team is still going to be really good, they still are one of the best-run franchises relating to baseball decisions, we talk about how the manager spot is less important these days and Espada should do fine managing those players. The $5 million fine is offset by them not having to pay Hinch and Lunhow. Arguably the factor that will hurt the most is the loss of the draft picks. I think they’ll be okay in the immediate future anyway. They maybe should have lost more, but I think it is probably fine.
We’ll see what happens to the Red Sox and Cora. Cora will likely get the longest suspension of anyone involved but I can’t see much harsher punishments thrown to the rest of the organization
Another part that had me laughing; when Hinch and “some players” said the scheme was more distracting and wasn’t helpful – yet the team continued to do it for 3 years, while using it in the post-season. It wasn’t helpful, they just used it and abused it to a World Series title.
A quick google brought me this from a USA Today article in the sprint of 2018…’Teams use intricate sets of signs to disguise pitch selection when a potentially nosey baserunner is on second base, and not every pitcher employs the same systems. The Rays used 30 pitchers last season, and each of them had at least two sets of signs for use with runners on base. There’s some overlap, but it’s still a lot for catchers to memorize — a major impetus for all the mound visits.’…
It was couched with mound visits, but what I see is ‘because everyone is stealing our pitch signs we need an algorithm to call the game now’. Lots of teams have done it, the Jays I am sure did something a few years ago, I just wish more players would speak up and this would stop immediately.
my point is, the astros sign stealing became less effective because teams were rolling through 3-4 sets of signs and changing those signs frequently so they couldn’t be deciphered quick enough by the team….not that they were not helping the batters.
Did it? You have pitchers and catchers worrying about encryption instead of pitching and catching.
Not necessarily. Catchers can wear armbands with signs encoded. Pitchers can have their own signs on a notecard. No major mental lifting required.
Yeah, the 2020 Astros are going to still be good. One simply hopes their older pitchers just start to fall off, and some of the hitters aren’t as good.
Cora will get 2 years. I’d bet heavily on it. And it would look bad on the Red Sox if they took him back.
Right, it’s AWFULLY convenient that Cora is outed as the instigator and singular driver of the call stealing. It’s also AWFULLY convenient that the most authoritative figure in the clubhouse (Hinch) was so powerless to change things that he has to resort to passively aggressively damaging equipment to achieve his goal.
This was all a poorly executed cover up that tried to deflect all blame to Cora, but at least Luhnow and Hinch eventually took the fall for their illegal behavior.
The Luhnow part sounds like a classic case of maintaining deniability to keep from interfering with the program. That fits pretty well with what the report says. But the Hinch stuff is really hard to believe. It’s mind-blowing to think something of this detail would occur over that length of time without the manager’s permission.
I don’t think Hinch’s statement is hard to believe at all. It’s quite common in organizations for people in leadership positions to lack the stomach for certain types of confrontations, or for confronting certain people, and thus let things go when they know they shouldn’t–or try to cheat and find a way to end the behavior without ever directly confronting it. It’s a classic type of bad leadership. On my read, that’s what Hinch confessed to . . . and as Luy says below, that failure of leadership is more than enough to justify firing him.
When Hinch was asked about it, he said the accusations were “a joke”
Sounds like “you’re the puppet” to me
I’d like him to explain that before he comes back
Yeah, AJ was so enraged but he showed up to work everyday for years allowing it to happen and continue.
Trombone, I would normally agree with you based on most other management structures, but Luhnow gutted the entire organization to implement only his people so that he’d have complete control and oversight. You have to imagine he knew – it’s not like the Astros were overly discreet.
It’s amazing that Luhnow and Hinch were so against it but they didn’t fire Cora for going against their wishes… yet Luhnow fired scouts solely because they weren’t pure analytic thinkers. Makes sense.
There are definitely a lot of managers who take a very hands-off approach to so-called “clubhouse management” and just let the players and other staff do their thing, whether because they trust everyone to be professional adults who don’t need oversight or because the analytics and development operation runs things without needing much input from the manager. So it’s certainly possible that Hinch was just taking that outlook to an extreme and letting his players do their thing.
If that’s the case, though, then he represents the most profoundly useless sort of baseball manager I can imagine. If the manager can’t even interfere with his players’ activities when he literally believes them to be cheating, then what’s the point of having one?
The only other explanation is that the sign-stealing scheme had approval from someone above Hinch (or at least that Hinch believed it did) and he therefore felt he couldn’t explicitly end it.
This. Even if we believe Hinch’s version of things, his ineffectiveness as a leader is more than enough to justify his firing.
Right.
He may have taken it to Luhnow and been told Crane wanted it. Or Luhnow himself.
At that point he had the choce of quitting or looking the other way.
He looked away and accepted credit for the team’s success.
Not exactly a model of integrity.
I think you nailed on the head with your last thought. Hinch destroying equipment in frustration or stop it in an individual game doesn’t make sense unless he was getting vetoed from above.
Sure it does. It’s a fear based culture. Anyone who has ever worked in one understands. You don’t know who your friends are, who approved what, etc.
Doesn’t absolve Hinch, just means he was weak in the face of dysfunction. When you are making millions a year, you’ll look the other way.
Don’t rock the boat.
So, how many teams want a manager that loose, who’ll look tge other way at things he knows to be wrong?
His managing days are likely over.
Thinking the EXACT same thing
Same with Beltran …
And if they did go out of their way to use this investigation as a way to ding their opponents a second time, those people should get lifetime bans
to add on…what the Braves did had no impact on the field of play in the major leagues. Coppy did not cooperate. MLB punished the leader and the team. Think about this MLB fined the Astros $5 million but the Braves lost $40 million + without altering the MLB brand. Is is equity punishment? Yes all (most?) steal signs and yes all bundle funds in the DR too. Again the big market teams were the innovators of this practice. The commish took it easy on the Astros because a huge punishment does hurt/impact negatively the MLB brand a lot more than the international signing. Protect the rich big boys and cast the young and the poor. Capitalism at its finest……..MLB could have made another stride toward “cleaning” the game in all levels but chose instead to protect it at the highest instead
Yeah, the Braves lost real players – prospects – in the ordeal and their leadership was banned for life. What the Braves did was shady, and potentially illegal in regards to tax obligations which alarmed baseball more, but it didn’t actually effect the MLB on the field product.
The Astros decision here had a vast ripple effect throughout the game; from coaches losing jobs, to players losing income, this was a much bigger MLB issue and the MLB didn’t really do anything to harm the big league club.
I’m not exactly sure how the Astros are a big boy and the Braves are not.
Besides, MLB had to worry about some serious legal liability with the Braves’ infractions.
Also, MLB can only fine the Astros $5M under the league’s constitution.
I’m not sure what exactly more you would have the commissioner do here. Declare the entire team free agents, when they were the ones who seemed to be driving the system? Void the contracts of minor leaguers and face legal challenges from the Astros? Force the Astros to play with 24 players on the roster next year and have the players’ union issue a challenge that they certainly will win?
They should have stripped the title.
It isn’t going to happen and shouldn’t. I doubt the Dodgers or their fans would even pretend like they were 2017 Champs if MLB did something goofy like that though.
It has nothing to do with Dodger fans (of which I am one) pretending to be champions. They cheated their way to a title & it should be stripped. There was no champ in 1994…why not 2017…?
What would that even look like? “remove your banners and sell your rings”? It would be symbolic, but it wouldn’t really change anything.
This is a pretty steep penalty. Using Atlanta’s punishment as a baseline, I’m not sure if this goes far enough (or Coppy’s punishment was too harsh).
It does make me laugh that Jim Crane fired them. The Machiavellian mindset came from him. Dude made billions in unregulated energy markets. Think he gives a shit about morality?
No, but he does care what other billionaires think of him. Owning these teams is supposed to bring you prestige, not utterly embarrass you. So it’s a way to save face.
If he did know what was going on, my guess is that he only would have cared if he thought he was going to get caught and embarrass him.
I will say that Crane is smart enough to keep any interactions he had with Hinch and Luhnow about the system in person, and off of email.
Yes. They cheated to win a WS Title. They didn’t cheat to gain draft picks, to hire good GMs or Managers or for 5 Million dollars. Why would it make sense to let them keep what they cheated and tarnished baseball to attain? Rings are personal property, but I would hope that they would not allow that trash franchise to display that WS trophy, make them bring down the banners. I would hope that the franchise would have enough integrity to do it of their own free will… but they don’t have a record of doing the right thing so not holding my breath for that.
Officially stripping a championship title would be an utter embarrassment for MLB itself, even worse than when the playoffs were cancelled in ’94. You will never see a pro league in any sport even think of issuing such a punishment. You don’t see the NFL stripping the Patriots of the titles they cheated to win, do you?
I think Baseball is already embarrassed by this fiasco. They might as well get it right instead of trying save a reputation that has already been ruined. Instead our message is, “its okay to cheat to win a world series”
You can’t claim the Dodgers won, but a lot of people are going to place a big fat asterisk on that 2017 WS trophy.
Put another way, it is not in the MLB commissioner’s powers to truly strip it, only baseball fans can.
Let’s clarify big boy is not referencing the Astros but MLB. Profits shield/protects. That is what i am referring to. MLB is protected. Mansfeld is protecting the profits of MLB. Braves fiasco is MiLB and Mansfeld hammered the Braves with “baseball cares” abou the integrity and state of the game……yeah whatever………Mansfeld could have really set a precedence with the Astros by hammering the organization, the players who actively participated but again chose to protect the MLB brand.
Mansfeld… ??
The guys who really deserve the discipline (i.e. the players) are, as Jay points out, insulated by the MLBPA union. And since MLB is about to go into a pretty unpleasant round of renegotiating the Collective Bargaining Agreement, they certainly don’t want to waste time antagonizing the union about this.
Ultimately, it may be worse for the “Trashstros” players to never get their day in court, so to speak. This is a stink that will linger on every one of them forever. Nobody is really going to look at guys like Bregman, Springer, Correa, and Altuve (this one hurts) the same way again. Its the Mark of Cain.
The whispers alone will impact their legacies.
Look to Bagwell, who made it to the HOF but is still questioned about PEDS.
And then there is the morality/integrity thing some voters care about.
Neither convicted nor exonerated.
Not a fun place to be.
And since it was a group effort, they can’t even do the mea culpa thing.
I had the same thought regarding IBP money. That’s kind of a loophole in all of this. Assuming they can trade for more $ and buy young international talent, they’ll be able to either add to the top of their farm system, or use them as chips to try to keep their window for contention open a little longer.
This has to sting for Houston, but it could have stung worse.
Braves punishment better fit their crime while Astros didn’t. Astros still won the WS so stripping them of their championship makes sense. I would have lobbied for more than 1 year suspensions. Perhaps Cora gets banned?
As a fan who realizes the past can’t actually be changed, I was always more interested in a punishment that curbs/ends such behavior in the future. I wasn’t excited about vacated titles (again – can’t change history). And I don’t get off on PUNISHMENT just to rub people’s nose in stuff.
I think this punishment does a good job of making it clear, especially to folks in Hinch’s situation… you’re ultimately responsible. And I think the loss of a year, getting fired and becoming the public face of the scandal will make most (not all) managers in the future reconsider something like this.
I was going to say something similar. The Braves big crime was paying poor kids from poor countries too much money under the table, something all teams do. Their punishment wasn’t just that ” the team also lost international bonus pool money”. That is a gross understatement. Their international system was decimated for years. They already had the 2 year 200K bonus limit to sign players. THEN in the 3rd year they couldn’t sign ANY player over 10K. This year they lose half of their pool money. That’s four years of severe restrictions. Plus losing the players that cost them to have the penalties in the first place. The players got to keep all the bonus money so that ended up being about a 30 – 40M loss for the Braves and an ended career for a young executive (but no punishment for his boss, who surely knew what was going on).
The Astros cheated to win a World Series. They got a small fine, two one year suspensions and lost four draft picks. Big deal. The Braves got hammered. The Astros did not.
I’m not going to argue for or against the rest of your points, but what the Braves did is certainly NOT something all teams do. If it were, more than just the Braves would’ve been caught and faced similar punishments.
Since when is being suspended for a year and subsequently fired having “passed the buck” or “escap[ed] accountability”? Furthermore, they both absolutely took responsibility in their statements. Do some research before posting such blatant lies!
I’d like to have seen something included about Lunhow’s statement where he says he accepts responsibility but then goes on to blame everyone else.
thought it was really interesting- saw today that Craig Calcantrarra(sp?) brought up it was Lunhow who was the mastermind behind the minor league contraction idea.
Yeah, this has been widely reported. Luhnow would like to do way with the entire minor league system but was happy to start with a few teams first.
He blamed “lower-level employees” for the entire ordeal. Let that sink in for one second; the control freak, who fired everyone in the organization that didn’t believe and do the exact things he wanted, wants us to believe that all of this went down without his knowledge. In classic Luhnow fashion, he cites his impeccable integrity while belittling those beneath him; as is the norm for Luhnow.
Luhnow probably found out and was jealous he didn’t think of it himself.
Luhnow is a total fucking piece of shit.
lol someone’s mad
This the “Rick Pitino Special”. After finally being punished for one of his many scandals at Louisville, his quote was almost directly “I accept full responsibility for my actions… but it wasn’t my fault.” Responding like that seems somehow worse than just deny, deny, denying…
I have some respect for guys who either just apologize genuinely or completely refuse any responsibility. The I’m sorry, but… response makes you just seem like a liar and piece of crap.
Baseball goes on, indeed. Thanks, Jay.
Is the significance of naming just Carlos Beltran in the report simply to warn him of further infractions as manager of the Mets? It seems really peculiar to me that Manfred would mention him, and not take any punitive action towards him, unlike the cases of the other players where the extent to which they participated in the sign-stealing scheme would be too arduous to study. The idea that Beltran, in his last year as a position player, won a World Series while actively engaging AND encouraging in sign-stealing activities, will now have free reign to run a major league team, but won’t receive so much as a slap of a wrist is kind of mind-boggling to me.
I read it as essentially that Beltran is being put on notice. His name being all over the report means that he essentially cannot do something like this again in the future and if he does, it will have severe repercussions. It does bring up a question though about whether or not a manager should be punished for things that happened when he was a player years after the incidents. The Mets will forever remain interesting though. It’s like there hasn’t been enough drama as of late and things are going too well, so now they have to deal with something like this.
No doubt the Mets will always remain interesting, I’m wondering if Brodie or any of the Mets braintrust will take punitive measures but I guess they’re even less willing to take on the Player’s Association than Manfred is. I’d pay a pretty penny to listen to the phone calls going in and out of Queens right now.
I would have liked to see Beltran get at least a small suspension (as manager). Say 30 games or something.
You wouldn’t be able to do this without the Player’s Association getting involved (by their own rules, they have to, because disciplinary measures like this haven’t been collectively bargained). The fact is that it happened while Beltran was a player, not a manager.
Manfred is quite deliberately avoiding stepping on that landmine even as he goes out of his way in the report that the players are all deeply implicated in this.
I definitely agree, I mean I guess the bright red warning light that Manfred is flashing at Beltran is the only thing he can really do at this point. Though the punishments for the organization are pretty clear, it’s disappointing that Manfred is heavily deterred by any possible follow-up legal action with the Player’s Association.
Yeah, Manfred’s basically telling us that Beltran would’ve gotten the same year suspension if he wasn’t a player.
Certainly adds to the farcical nature of what’s been going on in this sport. No idea how Manfred avoids any criticism at this point. Before this cheating scandal, there was the ghastly idea floated to contract 40 minor league teams, the debacle of the baseball this season, decreasing attendance, grinding of the game itself to 3 outcomes, too much tanking, and the overall economic problems in the game. Why the heck are so many competitive teams looking to trade their controllable elite players??
It’s a freakin disaster and it’s not going to fix itself. Manfred has only made things worse.
Let’s not forget that he secretly changes the baseball at least once a year
I mean…being named in the report may well cost him the Hall of Fame.
He’s not as good as Schilling…who is being kept out largely for being a massive asshole (not “his politics”).
Maybe Astros and Royals writers keep him on the ballot…but there’s no way he gets in via the writers, now.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for the Hall of Fame to kick out all the previously elected known cheaters and terrible jerks before I accept the validity of the character clause in Hall of Fame voting. How is it fair that it took 70 years or so before the voters started enforcing that clause?
If Beltran were nearly as good as, say, Gaylord Perry, this might be more of a conversation.
Bonds and Clemens deserve induction, and I can even see arguments for A-Rod.
As is…he’s basically Andre Dawson with credit for UBR and 3.5 more years of the CF positional adjustment.
A deserved inductee, for sure…but not one we can’t live without, considering he’s a fucking cheater.
You can “see arguments for A-Rod”?
You must be a small, small, tiny hall guy! I mean, it’s not the PED taint bc you’re letting Bonds in.
Being manager of the Mets is punishment enough
What is impractical about punishing each of the players involved? So what if it was the entire team, or if those players are now on other teams? If each of those players had been caught cheating with PEDs surely they would each be suspended for a period regardless if it meant that Astros had to play the first half of the season with their AAA roster, or if those players were now on other teams.
Agree 100%. Or what if a player committed domestic violence while with Team A but the incident didn’t come to light until the player was with Team B? Does anyone honestly believe that player wouldn’t receive (and deserve) a suspension?
And yeah, maybe it’s hard to tell who did exactly what. So just give everyone the same punishment. Simple problem, simple solution.
The players’ union would rightfully throw a fit if the entire 2017 Astros team was uniformly served the same punishment without any attempt to determine proper guilt.
It’s impractical because the league has to abide by the CBA when it comes to players. They can’t just slap arbitrary suspensions or fines on them.
Since you brought up PED’s, you should remember that the whole sticking point in terms of testing and punishing players for PEDs was the CBA. There were no provisions in the CBA for testing or punishment on PEDs (because the MLBPA stonewalled it but that’s another story) so MLB had no recourse. And they can’t just implement something unilaterally. it all had to be negotiated with the PA before it could be implemented.
Similar thing here. There is almost certainly no specific language in the CBA for something like this. So anything MLB does to the players would likely trigger instant appeals and legal battles from the PA. Battles they would probably win. Even if the league did win in the end it would be extremely messy and not overly effective or impactful.
And, as Manfred said, how do you determine culpability among players? How do you say a player in the video room decoding signs deserves X amount of days suspension but another player who only relayed signs get a fine? What is the scale for this? It’s virtually impossible to do in objective way which means any player punishments would be largely arbitrary (and even easier to appeal).
The CBA states “Players may be disciplined for just cause for conduct that is materially detrimental or materially prejudicial to the best interests of Baseball including, but not limited to, engaging in conduct in violation of federal, state or local law. ”
So yes, Manfred could have suspended the players involved. But I agree that he didn’t want to take on the MLPBA, win or lose. He clearly wants this swept away as soon as possible (note his gag order on the owners).
the Gag Order- that the Dodgers referred to in an absolutely incredible passive-agressive tweet last night….
Maybe they were getting numerous requests to comment and didn’t want to be bugged any longer. As a Dodger fan, I find this whole episode very frustrating. I don’t want to be too critical since it is possible my own team may not have clean hands but it sure feels like we were cheated out of a very real chance to win a WS. However, I really feel sorry for some of the pitchers, especially Kershaw. Some of the key at-bats against him seemed like the hitters were really dialed in for that particular pitch. He is by all accounts a good guy but his legacy has taken quite a hit because of his postseason difficulties. It feels unfair.
As someone pointed out above, I bet Darvish is pissed.
I think he made it pretty clear that he is.
https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1216877422823559169
I know it happened this season after he surrendered the two HR’s vs Washington, but I remember him looking at the camera all dejected and owning it saying “Evertything they say about me is true about the postseason.” No its not Kersh. Those cheating scumbags robbed you of you moment, and you have been chasing it ever since.
Yeah, it’s not quite that black and white. If it was it would kind of make having a CBA pointless. Again, I point to the PED testing as an example. Possesion of steroids is a crime. And PED use was certainly “detrimental to the best interests of baseball.” But MLB still didn’t just start suspending players unilaterally because they knew it wouldn’t stand up and wouldn’t be practical.
Any attempt to suspend players for this would be met with huge pushback from the PA and rightfully so to be honest. That’s the whole point of having a CBA.
Sorry but you’re wrong about PEDs. The previous CBA called for a year of drug testing without penalties, and if enough players failed, then penalties would start in 2004. At that point, the penalty for a first offense wasn’t suspension. It was treatment. Of course, that was all wiped out by the new agreement in 2005.
So the commissioner couldn’t unilaterally suspend players because there was specific language in the CBA about how PERs were to be handled.
No, i’m not wrong. Bud Selig could not just unilaterally suspend a player in 1999 for PED’s or implement testing because “steroids was illegal/bad for the game” like you claim the CBA says he can. It all had to be collectively bargained and it eventually was in 2002 (the survey testing you reference). If the CBA gave the commish the power you think it does it would totally undermine the CBA.
You are on another topic completely that has no connection to what i said.
1) Please no NOT put words in my mouth. Where did I ever say that Selig could unilaterally implement a drug testing program???
2) There was no direct evidence against any specific player back in 1999. So who would he even have suspended? You’re making arguments that make no sense whatsoever.
3) During the Biogenisis scandal, there was plenty of speculation that A-Rod and others would be suspended based on the CBA clause that I cited and not based on the Joint Drug Policy. So yes, plenty of people do think that clause can be used to suspend PED users. In the end, baseball decided not to go that way. Though part of A-Rod’s suspension (related to interfering in the investigation) was based on that part of the CBA.
4) “You are on another topic completely that has no connection to what i said.” Um, no I’m not. I’m responding directly to comments that you’ve made that are untrue.
Two final points. You keep saying that things have to be in the CBA.
The clause that I cited that gives the Commissioner broad authority to suspend players for “conduct that is materially detrimental or materially prejudicial to the best interests of Baseball” is in the CBA.
Sheesh!
Secondly, plenty of players were suspended back in the 80s for drug use, almost always cocaine. So yes, there is precedent for the Commissioner suspending players for drug use, even when there isn’t anything specific in the CBA.
Yes you are. You are talking about AFTER the Joint Drug Policy was implemented. I’m talking about BEFORE. Manfred could not really go after the Astros players for largely the same reason Selig couldnt go after PED cheats pre 2002. There is nothing in the CBA that will let him.
Bringing up things that happened AFTER the JDA was collectively bargained has zero relevance to what I said. Go back and re-read my original response.
Yes, I know. That is EXACTLY MY ENTIRE POINT, lol.
Manfred could not suspend those guys anymore than Selig could have suspened those guys. Its literally the entire point of the comparison.
Maybe take a second glance at what I actually said.
Selig could have punished players for PED use if he had been allowed to test them. He wasn’t allowed to test and therefore could never obtain proof.
Manfred is allowed to punish players for electronic sign stealing. There is no test for sign stealing that he is unable to perform. The way to detect on-field rule breaking is via physical evidence and witness testimony, which is what he did. Manfred has evidence — apparently mountains of it — that shows that individual players engaged in conduct that is materially detrimental to the best interests of baseball.
He didn’t want the negative publicity that it would generate, so he chickened out.
I am pretty confident that these actions do not violate federal, state, or local law. Given that, he could have suspended the players, but they almost certainly would have won, since the language is vague and their actions were sanctioned by the team.
Some enterprising “tough, smart lawyer” (thank you, Jim Adler the Texas Hammer!) would probably like to characterize this as felony theft, although what they stole was likely of dubious value. Not that it has any relevance to the topic.
You must’ve missed the part that says “but not limited to.”
It would be almost impossible to determine “just cause” for each individual player involved.
You don’t need to suspend every player involved. You can suspend only the players for which you have firm evidence.
Because not every criminal can be prosecuted does not exonerate those that can be.
TL;DR:
“It is hard, so do nothing”
“And, as Manfred said, how do you determine culpability among players?”
So, they know exactly how many games to remove from a player’s career if he slaps a woman in public, but it’s just too difficult to “objectively” assign punishment to people involved in massive on-field cheating scandal.
Ordinarily, they know which player slapped the woman. Figure it out.
Yep, from witness statements identifying the player, which is exactly what they have in this case.
The problem is likely that they can’t prove definitively which players contributed actively and which ones only benefited. The pitchers themselves could have benefited, though indirectly (through increased run support and wins).
Recognizing the limitations of the CBA, I’d still would have liked to see Manfred imply that the players had a duty to report this stuff. Even those who didn’t use the system clearly knew it was going on, and benefited from it as members of the team.
I’m not convinced vacating titles wasn’t an option, either. MLB let Melky Cabrera concede the NL batting average title a number of years ago to Buster Posey after he was suspended for PEDs. It was a bit weird, but Posey went into the annals as the winner and life went on. I certainly understand why the league didn’t want to open this can of worms, though.
Man, what a shitty situation.
Hinch knew it was happening and did nothing to stop it but Cora was at the very center of all that was going on, then the Red Sox developed their own system in 2018 under Cora. Let me take this opportunity to say that I enjoyed Cora’s tenure as the Red Sox manager and wish him well in his future endeavors.
One thing that I’ve been thinking a lot lately is that while the Red Sox probably don’t want to mess with the timeline that brought them the most recent WS win, it’s pretty obvious to me that the team would be way better going forward under Hazen (and all the other guys who left) and Lovullo than Bloom and whoever replaces Cora. The team lost a tremendous amount of front office and managerial talent when Dombrowski took over, and now both Dombrowski and Cora are gone (or will be gone).
The entire situation surrounding the Red Sox front office following the departure of Cherington is very complex. I think many Red Sox fans looked at Dombrowski’s hiring with mixed emotions. His track record was clear and on one hand the Sox won a World Series with Dombrowski running things but, just as his history predicted, ran the franchise into the ground while doing it. Was it a mistake to take that road? I must say that from this fan’s view point, 2018 was a lot of fun and Flags Fly Forever! I was clamoring for Cora to be hired and was thrilled when he was but there may be such a thing as being too smart, or at least thinking you are, and Cora shows the symptoms. It is probable that he was the mastermind behind the debacle in Houston and must have had a hand in whatever the Red Sox did in 2018. However, my main argument for thinking Cora was too clever for his own good was the way he handled Spring Training in 2019. He determined that ST was too long and made the decision to sharply limit the innings the rotation would throw in actual games during that time and get their work in on the back fields. It clearly was a disastrous idea as the entire rotation was awful in April, Sale is obvious but also look at Rodriguez. The team never recovered and, with the exception of Rodriguez, the staff struggled all season despite the efforts to “Save them for the post-season”. LOL. Hindsight is always 20/20 and the combination of Hazen and Lovullo looks pretty darn good right now and the future in Boston is rapidly becoming cloudy with a chance of a stormy period on the horizon.
And, to the shock of no one, Cora is out. This probably had to happen, and happen quickly.
As a fellow Red Sox fan I echo this sentiment wholeheartedly.
Man, I’m not sure I could be so sanguine about my favourite team stealing signs illegally.
We all may soon find out how we react.
It’s very convenient for the Astros to portray Cora as the villain to reporters and MLB investigators
Remember the Sox were cited for sign stealing BEFORE Cora showed up, in 2017
Hopefully this starts to clean things up. The pace of play has gotten out of hand recently with teams even using complex signs with no one on base due to the fears laid out here. Obviously, most teams knew something was going on, but few wanted to complain directly or get specific with their complaints when going to Manfred.
The more detail comes out, the worse this looks. My jaw literally dropped when reading this summary.
Based on this (and some other reporting where other teams say the Astros actually caught a break here), my guess is Hinch and Cora will probably never work in baseball again; they’re clearly significant liabilities for any organization that employs them. If Luhnow does work in baseball again he’s going to be in a position with substantial supervision of his activities. What he has going for him is that he has a great track record and he didn’t seem to have much involvement, but this casts some doubt on the Astros’ success, most of baseball already hated him, and this is such a huge scandal that I think owners won’t want to bring him in.
I’m curious to see what the Mets do with Beltran–I could see it going either way, but I’d guess about 20 organizations would relieve of him of his duties immediately. Who wants a manager who just got implicated as one of the architects of the most severe cheating scandal of this century? And while I am sure Jay knows way more about this than I do, I would guess it will turn his Hall of Fame case into a “probably will get in” to “probably won’t.”
I think with Luhnow’s statement yesterday, he’s pretty much radioactive.
Hinch I think might be able to get back.
Nah – Luhnow will be back. He’s too good, winning is too important. In a couple of years he’ll make some promises, find Jesus, or whatever and he’ll be the GM of one of a wayward team in a mid-size market – think Detroit, Colorado, or Arizona. He’ll get a second chance, and I’m ok with that. Baseball is better with Luhnow’s skills a part of it. I imagine his next employer will keep him on a short leash, though, and he won’t get a third chance.
I don’t think he’ll ever get a chance to be a GM again. He’ll start as a “consultant”, maybe for Mike Elias in Baltimore. If he plays nicely, maybe he’ll get to run an analytics shop or something. I suspect anything he does will be monitored, probably for decades.
i hope you are wrong….both of these guys should be shamed from ever stepping in baseball office or park ever again.
Change decades to ~three years, and I would agree.
The more I reflect on this, the more I think Hinch’s behavior makes sense in a scenario where he was stopped by higher-ups (like Luhnow) from interfering. Hinch would have to make a really solid case that was what happened. Otherwise, he’s never setting foot in a dugout again, and even then, probably not. A front office would make more sense for him.
hinch is a crook. He’s just pointing fingers now that he got caught. They did it for 3 years, even after cora was gone. Go re watch his post game interviews when asked if the astros were stealing signs….he berates the reporter for even daring his authority. sickening. crook .
This scheme was known top to bottom in the org and I’m sure many of the media as well.
No one is *banging on garbage cans* 100 times a game without the entire team being fully aware and the top exec condoning it.
In the NFL, when a player is suspended he can only serve that suspension while on an NFL roster. So if he is cut and another team picks him up he can’t play until he sits for however many games remain on his penalty. I wonder if that applies to Luhnow and Hinch here, and eventually to Cora. Meaning that if, say, the Mets (of course) hired them, would they be unable to start their jobs for a year? I’m guessing no – that they could start as soon as January 13, 2021 or maybe even the day after the WS ended in 2020 depending on how “one year” is defined by the league.
Also, since I am a cynic, I bet Crane and Manfred had an agreement that Crane wouldn’t be penalized if he supported the commissioner’s decision, but would receive no such protection if he did not. Manfred might have pro-actively tried to avoid the sort of power struggle and PR stain the NFL had when Jerry Jones fought the suspension of Ezekiel Elliott or when Robert Kraft told the Boston Herald that he “truly believed [the Patriots] were treated unfairly” over Deflategate.
MikeS, they can’t be employed in affiliated baseball at all. The year has been defined to the end of the 2020 World Series.
I think the agreement may even have been that Crane agreed to fire Lehnow and Hinch in exchange for the protection.
From the way it reads here, it sounds more like an unofficial one year ban from baseball rather than a true suspension. They’re free to do anything after the year is up, but in the meantime they can’t even look for new jobs within MLB.
People say this kind of thing after every scandal. Yet, within five years, no one will be talking about this. Luhnow will have been hired as a scouting director and will quietly take over as effective GM somewhere. Hinch and Cora will be minor league managers and then big league coached if not managers within the same time frame. Their careers will ruined about as much as Ryan Braun’s and Nelson Cruz’s were.
So $5 million (fine) + $28 million (lost draft picks) = $33 million for a World Series. Seems cheap to say the least.
Players needed to be suspended to actually hurt this team.
Cheaper than Mike Trout for a year…
$33 million is a LOT of money. The sign-stealing almost certainly did not have $33 million-worth of benefit above and beyond the level of sign-stealing that every team does. Plus the loss of a GM and Manager that were huge assets to the organization over the years (monetarily speaking, of course) should not be overlooked. The penalties levied here are much stiffer than I expected, maybe even approaching “fair”.
It’s not cheap for Luhnow or Hinch. That being said, we see this price tag looking back, but any other team contemplating cheating risks this (or likely worse) punishment without the promise of a World Series ring.
“Players needed to be suspended to actually hurt this team.”
Could not agree more.
And remember, you only lose the $33M if you get caught. I bet there are a couple people around the league quietly chasing through the cost-benefit analysis.
And hell, if you’re a player – why not try to do this? Helps you on the field and if it goes sideways it’s someone else’s neck on the line.
The only clear message I am getting from this is that the commissioner is terrified of challenging the player’s union. We know when it started, and we know the players that cheated in those games. Every Astros hitter who participated in those games should be punished proportionately to how long they cheated.
I wouldn’t say he is terrified. He thinks he wouldn’t win, and he’s right. Without the player’s union saying it’s okay you wouldn’t have had punishments for PEDs either.
I understand that sanctioning the players is probably a just outcome but this is a battle he was not going to win.
Manfred already has a big fight coming over the new CBR.
Why pick another fight that isn’t clearcut?
Using the “best interests of the game” clause on one guy, sure.
But suspending an entire roster? Years after tbe crime?
The union would definitely fight.
No, it’s practically impossible to determine who and how long they cheated. That’s part of the problem.
Not if we are to believe Manfred that the Astros turned over emails and text messages. There is certainly evidence that puts some specific names and dates to the activity.
Rob Manfred’s hammer has the force of a toothpick.
Even if suspending players would be challenging for the reasons given (some have signed elsewhere, the varying degrees of culpability and participation), aren’t there other methods of punishment? For example, every player on the 2017 World Series winning team received a bonus check worth $438,901.57. How about fine the players that amount? Or just… any amount at all?
I’m okay with not suspending players if there’s some other punishment, but in this case the punishment seems to be the hope that they feel guilty for contributing to the firing of their manager and general manager, in addition to whatever embarrassment and scrutiny they may now receive. There’s no tangible punishment. It reeks of the commissioner simply not wanting to deal with the Player’s Union.
Yes. It’s good that the “owner” of the business doesn’t want to mess with a union. Strong unions are better for us all. Leave it to the teams to discipline the players, which they won’t because they knew of and approved of what the players were doing.
The problem is the CBA. If there is no language in the CBA that allows Manfred to do it, then he really has no recourse. He could go ahead and do it anyway but it would almost certainly be tossed out by a court.
You can say he is afraid of the PA but that’s kind of the whole point of a union and a CBA. It stops management from just doing whatever they feel is warranted to its employees.
Sinch Hinch was signed beyond this year, will the Astros still have to pay him after his suspension is over?
My first inclination is to say yes, unless his contract has some sort of “morals” clause in it.
I don’t know for certain but costing your owner $5M and a whole bunch of draft picks by violating clearly defined rules would seem to be enough cause to fire someone “for cause.”
“Hammers” lol. Yeah, with a pool noodle.
Yeah, this is far from “hammering”, no players banned, no IFA budget cuts, they even get to keep their G. Cole comp pick.
This is a slap on the wrist at best and will stop no other teams from trying to cheat.
These guys cheated their way to a title, they’ll trade that for some picks that won’t impact them for the next 3-4 years.
I remember those ridiculous clutch hits off of Bauer and A. Miller that were several feet away from the strike zone in the 2017 postseason. You could only make contact with those pitches if you knew they were coming.
And all the ugly lying and accusations from Hinch to Verlander towards other teams. How do they not get stripped of their title?
I tend to doubt any manager will risk their career by allowing their team to cheat. The organisation might not have been punished severely, but Hinch and Luhnow have lost their jobs, and may never work in baseball again. If I’m a manager or a GM I do not allow my team to cheat even if the owner wanted me to.
I can understand feeling the penalties are light without any on field repercussions for the Astros beyond Hinch’s suspension and subsequent firing. However, Manfred and the MLB were always going to act in their best interests with this punishment. Fans were never going to get what many wanted in terms of stripping a title and on-field penalties. None of that would have made sense for the MLB from a business perspective.
Anything that hurts the Astros MLB product today hurts MLB’s wallet and with a collective bargaining negotiation coming up, any contentious battles with the players union would be poorly timed.
The ultimate goal here for the MLB is to cleanse the game of this specific brand of cheating and set a precedent for punishment in the future. That starts from the top down in every organization. With a different culture in place the Astros scandal is nipped in the bud after that September email from the league that Luhnow didn’t forward, if it was even allowed to go on that long.
Also, the $35M+ in penalties is not an insignificant sum. No team, owner, etc. is going to look at this penalty and think that the potential of getting caught cheating to slightly increase the odds of winning a World Series is worth the money and personnel costs levied against the Astros. Why spend $35M+ in fines, when you could take the legal route, add $35M+ in payroll and increase your chances of a World Series that way?
The chances of getting caught are only going to be greater now that players see there might not be any kind of repercussions for whistleblowing on a former team. Mike Fiers has actually been lauded publicly for going on the record with this. Players move teams so regularly nowadays that any team doing something to illegally aid their players on the field run a high risk of being outed.
All that said, I’m sure the union is happy to not have to go to court with the MLB at this time, but I can’t imagine they are pleased that there are seemingly no reparations for the players who may have lost their roster spot or even career by entering a game against a team stealing their signs.
“Also, the $35M+ in penalties is not an insignificant sum. No team, owner, etc. is going to look at this penalty and think that the potential of getting caught cheating to slightly increase the odds of winning a World Series is worth the money and personnel costs levied against the Astros.”
I’m not sure that is a given. Jeff Passan wrote a piece shortly after the punishment was announced stating that many high level execs and owners were frustrated Crane got off so easy. One team president went so far as to admit that given the penalty, he would be tempted to do the same in the position of the Astros: “‘I don’t know that I would,’ one team president said, ‘but I don’t know that I wouldn’t.'” Now you rightly point out that for most teams this kind of cheating barely nudges their WS odds; you likely have to already be a serious contender for something like this to even begin to make sense. But if you are, there’s at least a chance that this punishment is light enough that it might be worth it. It seems to me that Manfred should have come up with a penalty that made it decidedly NOT worth it.
This speaks to your second point: “Why spend $35M+ in fines, when you could take the legal route, add $35M+ in payroll and increase your chances of a World Series that way?” Except, of course, that increasing your payroll 35M might increase your costs far more than that in the long run, for instance because of the CBT; and we must also account for the chance that, doing it the illegal way, you may get away with it and pay nothing. Manfred has left an avenue here so that, at least for some clubs at some points in time, this penalty might very well be worth it if they think it puts them over the top. Crane, in particular, doesn’t lose much of anything, given everything he potentially gained. In short, Manfred didn’t come up with a penalty that clearly makes the expected value of cheating negative.
Don’t really care about the severity of the punishment provided it effectively deters the behavior. Hammering the guys who set the roster and lineup seems a pretty good way of getting teams to self-police and hold players accountable, hopefully stamping out the practice. Maybe not perfect justice, but I think I see what Manfred’s going for and I kind of dig it.
The sign stealing was directed by the front office, as Kevin Goldstein’s email shows.
Manfred wanted to do as little as possible while making it seem substantial. So he agreed to state that Luhnow had no knowledge in exchange for him taking a year of unpaid vacation. Had Manfred actually stepped up and suspended or banned players — something that would never be forgotten by fans — then the GM would effectively become blackballed for life. Luhnow basically got the best outcome he could hope for and, quite slimily, managed to deny guilt the whole time.
If any exec is weighing winning multiple championships vs. the possibility of having to look for a new job, I think the choice is pretty obvious, and the cheating will continue, just more carefully
“Nor were Beltrán [disciplined], the lone position player mentioned in the report and now the manager of the Mets”
It’s written right there–Beltran got stuck with the worst punishment of them all. He has to manage the Mets.
And now Beltran’s out too. Why would they let him off so easy?
I wish that Manfred had also announced that the league would be periodically auditing the Astros to ensure that they don’t engage in similar behavior in the future. That wouldn’t be punitive, but it would do more to disincentivize other teams from enacting sign stealing schemes if they make the determination that this punishment is an acceptable tradeoff for a title.
It’s not a disincentive for an owner, sure. I can’t imagine any GM or manager who likes having a job it going to sanction an elaborate sign stealing scheme again though which is the important part.
And after all this, the Houston organization is still quietly saying “It was still worth it to win that World Series.”.
The punishment was a good start but it’s not enough.
I’m not sure how all of the involved players are ineligible for punishment. You could slap each of those guys with a 50 game suspension and hopefully “ban” HOU from the postseason this year without actually having to ban them from the postseason.
At what point does MLB move to headsets like the NFL and wash away all of the sign stealing BS that’s inevitably coming in the future.
“the organization” is not a really thing though. Its a vague concept. The actual organization is made up of people. And the highest ranking people just lost their jobs and possible their careers.
I doubt any GM or manager is going to risk their career for a nebulous concept of “the organization”.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t strip them of their WS championship.
First, thanks for an excellent breakdown of this, Jay. Best piece I’ve read on this yet.
Second, I’m curious to know how this might change Houston’s strategy and plans moving forward. We may not have answers to that until there’s a new GM in place, and I would assume that they’ll still be trying to contend in 2020, but what then?
If Crane is truly interested in cleaning up and restoring integrity to the organization, maybe another rebuild isn’t too far out? Extending guys like Springer or finding replacements for soon-to-depart stars won’t be easy.
I frankly don’t see that either Luhnow or Hinch will work in MLB again. Maybe they will, I don’t know, but the fact that they allowed it to go on makes them look like a) cheaters by way of complicity, or b) ineffective leaders. Either label is damaging and I think any team that hired them would be on a short and tight rope with a lot of eyes watching. I don’t know that any team would want that headache if they couldn’t project that adding either man to the payroll would add X wins to their bottom line.
As a Cubs fan, I have no problem with Theo adding Lunhow to the management team in a year or so… Or if Theo leaves, a guy with the record of Lunhow taking over. As long as my team wins, I don’t care what snarky comments fans of other teams have.
Whatever it takes and damn the cost, huh?
Nah, in 10 years this will be ancient history. Most orgs would hire Luhnow — not directly to GM, but some lesser position and allow him to operate as GM.
Even Hinch, who has very little value, will prob. be coaching in MLB before too long.
A one-year suspension is minimal punishment in the big picture.
Hay, if you’re worried at all about AJ Hinch’s job prospects, don’t. Early last evening, someone with a Foxborough MA phone number called to ask him what size hoodie he wears.
Just neighing.
I would expect Cora to get the strongest punishment of the group, and a lifetime ban wouldn’t surprise me. Though I expect it will just be a de facto ban, where he is suspended for three years and his next employer has to show cause, and no one will.
I don’t have any issue with players stealing signs, provided they do it honestly. It’s a skill no less scrupulous than pitch framing or a good pick off move. But, if we allow teams to use tech to do it, suddenly we introduce an advantage completely divorced from player skill and determination. That removes the entire purpose of the contest and the contest is the entire purpose of the league. The League had to come down hard here. I see the difficulty in both determining and executing the punishment of individual players. So, I guess I’m ok with it’s absence. I disagree with those who say the owner wasn’t punished. As covered here, he lost $5 million plus the value of the draft picks. And, just as importantly, he lost his genius GM and manager. I think he should have also lost international money, but short of forcing him to sell the team, what more could they do to punish him? I think forcing him to sell would be too extreme even for something as bad as this. All in all, I think this response was proportionate to the misdeed.
Whole cheating episode brings Chris Correa to mind, and his claim that he only hacked the Astros after they stole info from the Cards. I still don’t know if the claim is true, but it can’t be easily dismissed.
In any event, Luhnow hired Correa.
MLB should offer a financial bounty for any player who reports team-wide, systemic cheating such as this. Players who step forward and report cheaters should be rewarded for taking the risk.
It would require anonymity.
Fiers is persona non grata in many dugouts, not just Houston and Boston.
If more teams get flagged he’ll be even less welcome.
Remember Jim Bouton?
Baseball’s unwritten rules include one about “what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse”.
Absolutely. There should be a whistleblower policy for any cheating.
It will never happen, though. Manfred wouldn’t have done a thing about this had not Fiers gone public.
While no one knows the absolute truth I do believe Luhnow had significant knowledge of it relayed up to him by Cora. I believe Hinch didn’t want to challenge Luhnow and Cora about the system because he would lose favor with his boss. Hinch was put in a tough spot.. there are only so many managerial roles in the MLB and even fewer as lucrative and successful as the Astro’s job has been the past 5 years. Luhnow seems to run a no holds bar baseball ops department where you are all in on the Astros way or an enemy to the state.
Great write up!
hinch is a crook. let this happen for 3 years. He was apart of it. He’s just pointing fingers now that he got caught. Crook. Go watch some of his post game interviews where he’s questioned if they still signs and he berates the reporters for even thinking that. sickening. crook shouldve gotten worse suspension.
I think the best thing for baseball to come out of this is the Astros solidifying themselves as a true villain. For whatever reason the Yankees haven’t really been *Imperial March plays* THE YANKEES *Imperial March fades* for a while now, and I think sports are fundamentally more interesting and entertaining when there is some monolithic entity that everybody loves to hate.
So, 75 (?) games for beating a woman, but a full year (and maybe/probably more) for joking about it?
Not sure why the downvotes as it’s a good point. The only thing I can counter with is higher standards for management vs employees?
‘Maybe, or that I guess Osuna’s actions are still “alleged” as far as I know (though it’s hard to see such a long suspension if they didn’t really occur) while Taubman’s were easily verifiable. Or that an executive’s time is considered “less valuable” than a player’s. Or that Fangraphs readers think it’s better to beat a woman than to joke/taunt about someone else doing it?
I think that if Osuna pulled a Bret Myers, he’d be gone for at least a full season, if not longer.
With Taubman, his conduct was public, then the team lied about it publicly, then he lied about it.
Osuna is protected by a CBA and a union. Taubman is not.
I am having a hard time seeing this punishment as a hammer. From a financial standpoint a strong argument can be made that the revenue earned from winning a World Series minus $5 mil + the estimated cost of future draft picks cited in this article netted the Astros organization a solid ROI.
Great article Jay!
I would like to see more detail on the postseason cheating efforts of the Astros. With so many baseball writers, surely some one will review key at bats in the 4 home games that the Astros won against the Yankees in 2017. And in the 2017 World Series, did Gurriel have the pitch before his HR against Darvish in game 3 in Houston(which preceded his racist gesture)?
Did Gurriel have the pitch before his 3 run HR against Kershaw in game 5?
Did Altuve have the pitch before his 3 run HR against Maeda in game 5?
These are very simple questions that writers should ask these players directly. In fact, these questions should have been posed already. In the postgame interviews on the field in 2017, both Beltran and Cora were credited with “pitch tipping” skills that helped Astros win. But very little journalistic effort was put into following up on the pitch stealing efforts. It took two years before Mike Fiers and Jomboy uncovered the extent of the Astros efforts.
Hopefully, we get some better answers from the baseball media now.
Not sure why so many of you are desperate to fine / suspend the players. Would they have been able to do it without the team moving the facilities into place to allow them to do it? The team completely allowed and encouraged their behaviour. If the team had given a damn about what the players were doing, they’d have already taken disciplinary action themselves.
Next time one of you without union protection is disciplined or fired for something your employer actively encouraged you to do, come back here and let’s have this discussion again.
The Nuremberg defense? Most people learn the difference between right and wrong by the time they reach kindergarten.
yep, and several players moved the tv according to the report one game when they thought they were caught. the panicked. shouldve banned the players for 1 year too. They obviously knew it was wrong.
She was asking for it wearing that shirt, huh?
The one thing no one can take from you is your reputation, only you can screw that up. The common denominator in this current scandal appears to be Cora. He needs to be banned for a good long while. The fans will take care of the players. The heckling will be merciless, product endorsements will be negatively affected for those involved. It’s going to be an interesting season.
The sad part is, just like the PED cheaters, the Astro and Red Sox players were talented enough to win without resorting to this.
…and Alex Cora’s in an Everestesque heap of trouble. This will be yet another stunning detail for the Sox to overcome this season. It will be compelling to see what happens
Considering he just left (“mutual agreement”) it’ll be someone else running tbe show.
Good thing Dumbrowski is already gone.
Whatever they do to the recidivist Sox will happen soon.
(Just remember the Apple Watch affair happened *before* Cora.)
Beltran dodged a bullet here. I doubt Cora will fare as well.
Actually, he’s the only player being stigmatized here
The other players dodged a bullet – the bullet they threw Beltran in front of to stop
“Oh yeah … the guy on the Mets, he did it !! He did it ALL !! That’s the ticket !!”
“Please” isn’t a justification for not stripping their title.
“…echoes of the league falling behind in addressing the influx of performance-enhancing drugs in the 1990s. Both issues centered around highly competitive players crossing into gray areas while looking for that extra edge.”
Jay J. is a fine baseball writer, and the article is quite well done on the whole.
However, there was NO gray area in the 1990’s when it came to illegal PED’s. Quoting MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent’s binding and enforceable Drug Policy Memo of 1991:
“The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited…. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs … including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.”
We know that Fay Vincent’s memo was binding and enforceable because Bowie Kuhn’s Drug Policy Memo of 1971 was enforced more than 20 times by then-Commissioner Peter Ueberroth in the 1980’s. Only one of Ueberroth’s numerous disciplinary actions was thrown out in its entirety. (The absurd one-year suspension for Fergie Jenkins.)
I apologize is this territory was covered earlier in the thread. I was far too lazy to read all but the first couple dozen entries.
They can put out all the memo’s they want, and those memo’s can be legally binding, but in order to identify/catch PED users you need to test. And testing can only be implemented by collective bargaining. So thats pretty much the end of it.
“but in order to identify/catch PED users you need to test”
Not true. Under the current CBA, the Commissioner has the authority to suspend players based on “non-analytical positives”, which refers to violations without a positive test. See the Biogenesis scandal.
Not to mention that plenty of players were suspended for cocaine use in the 80s without testing. Those sentences were partially upheld with the arbitrator stating that “[t]raditional notions of industrial discipline support the conclusion that an employer may respond to drug-related misconduct with severe measures,”.
Oh cool. I didnt know that current CBA was valid in 1991.
What they can do NOW has all being collectively bargained. Saying “well they can suspend guys now without testing” has zero relevance to what they could have done in 1991.
And yeah, good luck finding PED cheats without testing. Thats just an absurd claim.
Thanks for responding, but we’re talking about two distinct matters, George.
You’re talking about the difficulty of enforcement. I’m talking about whether or not illegal PEDs were expressly forbidden in MLB in the 1990’s.
Look at it this way.
A great many people cheat in large or small ways when filing their tax returns. Just because it is very difficult to catch them, that doesn’t mean they are operating in a “gray area.” They’re breaking the law, correct? And if they get caught, there are consequences. Even though many, many, many others will surely go un-caught.
Take it easy, sir.
I know what you are saying. You are saying that Jay was mistaken when he said it was a “grey area” because they were declared illegal.
What I’m saying though is that’s a pretty pedantic point to make because without testing it makes no difference if MLB has expressly forbidden them. The can say they are illegal all they want unless you actually have a way of catching people other than just dumb luck its a totally meaningless rule. so it was a “grey area” like Jay say’s because there was zero testing or enforcement and guys were, more or less, free to do whatever.
Try going into court and declaring, “I didn’t think that law was a real law, Your Honor. Sure it was on the books, but I figured it was a gray area since I knew it was really, really difficult to enforce.”
Best of luck with that defense.
Except that is not at all what I’m saying. I’m not saying it was a defense for players I’m saying it was totally unenforceable “rule” which makes it pretty irrelevant.
To use your analogy, imagine the police declaring it illegal to drive drunk while also have zero way of detecting if people are drunk.
know this is gonna sound weird- but why doesn’t mlb pixilate the catchers signs for it’s video?
Wouldn’t work on the team’s CF camera.
lol i hope you are joking. It’s shocking the punishment was so light. Every single owner would trade 1 year ban of their manager for a world series title. every single one of them. I’m disgusted witht Manfreds weak MLB leadership, and sickened by this moutpiece article to appease the MLB.
The punishment MLB handed down is basically nullified with Lunhow and Hinch being fired. The Astros were basically given no sanctions….no wins vacated, no money fined that would deter them from ever doing this again.
Everyone knows Hinch didn’t make one lineup decision or bullpen call in ihis time there, its all done by the analyts…his firing is nothing.
Vegas odds didn’t move a blip with his firing or this announcement…..sad nothing happened to the astros that would effect the pocket book or ability to win. no punishment, mlb is a joke.
“I’m… sickened by this moutpiece article to appease the MLB.”
What basis do you have for attacking Jay’s credibility?
If you’ve read “Astroball”, the chapter focusing on Beltran’s “ability to pick up tells from Pitchers” seems really different in light of what’s now come out. The author of the book is either a dupe or was knowingly covering up what was going on.
Lol what a dumbass take. There is absolutely zero basis for attacking a journalist like that.
““Analytics people, they understand the statistics,” Beltrán said. “But they don’t understand what the player is thinking.” What beyond the data could give a player the confidence to believe that every time he stepped to the plate, it was the pitcher who was in trouble, not him? And what could someone like Beltrán detect in a pitcher’s habits that could equip a teammate to understand not just what the probabilities suggested he would likely throw, but to know for certain?”
The author knew or this passage is just too hilariously good to be true.
Bountygate, anyone?
Perhaps if the broadcast TV cameras cut away when the catcher is flashing signs? Perhaps kill other cameras for ten seconds while the catcher flashes signs?
Pixel it out like naughty parts
” Both issues centered around highly competitive players crossing into gray areas while looking for that extra edge”
I disagree with this characterization.
The Astros crossed into a firmly black area and they were fully aware of it, too.
It is really remarkable how much the Astros have fallen from grace in just four months.
They were the sabermetric darlings, the pioneers who perfected the art of tanking, and you might not like their ways, but you sure respected them.
And then Taubman incident happens, they lose the world series being so close, and the whole trash can blows up.
What makes me sad is that 2017 WS game 5 was one of the greatest sports games I ever watched.
And now that memory is tainted.
Hammers down? This was a very light punishment. The only reason I think it was so light is because a lot of teams are about to go down.
I’m come to the conclusion that some fans aren’t going to be satisfied no matter how much other teams are punished for cheating. Especially if the cheating franchise is successful. I thought Manfred really hammered the Astros and assumed that others did as well. However, today I see all kinds of articles complaining that the Astros should be made to suffer for years on end and that all of their success is tainted. Doesn’t anyone care that the Astros didn’t actually have big home/road splits? And that they stopped doing this last summer because the players were convinced that it wasn’t helping?
Its kind of like the Cardinals’ hacking scandal a couple of years ago. Everyone was ready to run to the gallows to hang the Cardinals and most thought they got off lightly. However, the federal court filings showed that Chris Correa didn’t access that many files and that the only file of note related to Marco Gonzales’ medical history. The Cardinals got burned on that one anyway since Gonzales lost two seasons to arm trouble before the Cardinals dumped him.
I think a lot of fans wanting harsher sanctions would change their tunes if they thought about how the Red Sox, Brewers, Dodgers and Rangers have been accused of doing the same thing. The Astros were blatant about it and kept going even after the Apple Watch incident warning so I’m not crying any tears for them, but at the same time there’s a lot of reason to believe they weren’t alone either (even in 2019). Did anyone pay attention to the Darvish/ Yelich tweets from last fall? Has anyone looked at how odd the home/ road splits of the Brewers are? I mean, Miller is a hitter’s park but the Brewers’ home/road disparity is as bad as pre-humidor Coors Field.
Full power to deflectors
Deflect from what? I’m not an Astros fan and like I said, I don’t feel bad for them at all. I’m only commenting on the mob mentality that some have and how they don’t really care about the crime and its likely effects. I’ll bet the same people rushing to the gallows wouldn’t feel that way if a) it was a pitiful franchise like the Marlins that was caught or b) it was their team that was punished. Its easy for fans of 29 other teams to run in and point the finger.
Trying to minimize what the trash franchise did by bringing up home/road splits as a way of saying “it wasn’t a big deal”. Pointing out how the players stopped the practice after two seasons because they felt it was NO LONGER effective , doesn’t mean it wasn’t effective in the past.
You are also trying to smear other teams to again minimize what that cheating trash franchise did.
“Chris Correa didn’t access that many files”
LOL. Apparently enough files to go to prison.
BTW, the Brewers are just .764 OPS at home vs. .747 away over the last three seasons.
In general, people are punished based on actual evidence and testimony, not inferences from single-season splits.
Advanced Rationalization 102.
I await news the Red Sox are hiring JOEY CORA as their new manager.
I heard his name floated as new OC for the Patriots.
FWIW: Cora is gone by “mutual agreement”.
So the new GM gets to name his own guy.
If they can, I bet they try and get Matt Quatraro.
IMO, he seems like as good a choice as any, especially at this point in the offseason.
They should hire Brian McCann to show how farcical this is
( That the players still on the Astros are unnamed and unpunished )
“Difficult and impractical” can be used to describe almost any method of punishing bad behavior. Is it any easier or more practical to investigate domestic violence?
“aside from the fine levied, nobody is giving any of the money that the Astros and the league raked in while all of that was going on back”
So you think MLB somehow made extra money from the Astros stealing signs?
This whole thing is like suspending a trainer for a year after a bunch of his players were caught (and unpunished) using steroids. #suspendtheplayers
The concept of “fairness” is tough. Very nice article from Jay looking at the challenges of leadership and the many angles through which to view this incident and fallout. Not an easy thing to do, and Jaffe did an amazing job with it.
I would prefer MLB adapt to stay one step ahead. The temptation to use video is too tempting and too easy.
Serious question: how was Kevin Goldstein not suspended?
https://sports.yahoo.com/houston-astros-sign-stealing-executive-email-scout-2017-020530673.html
“Cheat to win” Rob Gutless
I’m sure the Astros were more than happy to tell Manfred that the only non-player who took part in the shenanigans happened to be the guy who left them and beat them the next year
Are they slimy enough to ruin his career to get a little revenge and take some of the heat off of themselves ?
Look at who you’re dealing with
Same with Beltran
The only guys mentioned by name just happen to have been managing other teams – how very convenient
Beltran has no reason to protect Hinch, and he apparently only named Cora, while singing like a canary.
Why is Beltran the ONLY player who’s name is mentioned at all ?
“He did this, he said that, he was the MASTERMIND”
Sounds like scapegoating from the exact people I would trust LEAST to be honest about who did what and when
Thanks for the summary of what everyone already knew. I don’t come to Fangraphs for news reporting, I come to Fangraphs for analysis. Unfortunately that ship sailed long ago.
Can you hop a ship and sail likewise?
They need an electronic system of pitch selection that will solve both the sign-stealing problem and the slowing down of the game it introduces. Imagine a world where pitches are selected quickly without paranoia and delivered with an enjoyable and flowing rhythm no matter if runners are on base or not. The joy of baseball is to watch the pitcher and batter faceoff and to link the action pitch to pitch, not to watch the catcher flash a million signs and the batter to step out of his crouch and the pitcher to step off the rubber.
Don’t you think that the Dodgers and Yankees deserve to get the Astros draft picks? Undoubtedly they were the teams most impacted from the sign stealing (two championship series that went to seven games that could have turned by one less hit for the Astros).
The A’s, Angels, Rangers and Mariners might have an argument there.
1st and 2nd to the Dodgers, 1st to the Yankees…I’d have given a 2nd to the Red Sox for the ALDS, but they can eat it after 2018.
The Astros organizational arrogance was incredible,they thumbed their collective noses at everyone that even intimated they were cheating,and smirked all the way to a championship.
Manfred’s punishment are ludicrously light compared to what the Braves and Copollela were nailed with for talent acquisition offenses, not blatant on the diamond cheating to win a World Series.
Luhnow ,Hinch and Cora are getting hammered,and deservedly so,but the organization that benefited from the nefarious deeds of it’s players is getting slapped on the wrist.
Four draft picks and a 5 million dollar fine carry a maximum value of 35 million dollars,the 2017 play off run alone generated 60 million or more in post season revenue for the Astros.
Throwing the hammer down would have involved the Astros forfeiting all their 2020 June draft picks and all of their international spending budget for the same year….as a start.
I suspect that the punishment here was more of the ‘shot across the bow’ type because of the pervasiveness of this type of activity among major league teams(Red Sox and Yankees for a start) ,so a true ‘death penalty ‘could have exposed far too much of the games underbelly of hypocrisy.
We can’t be pulling back the curtain on the Wizard now can we?
Fangraphs’ writing has really gone downhill in the past couple of years.
Not even close to enough. Nothing for the players? They cheated–at least the hitters did. I’d say $10,000 for each home plate appearance while this was going on plus Altuve losing his MVP award would be reasonable.