The 2023 Start of Spring ZiPS Projected Standings: National League

Brett Davis-USA TODAY Sports

The 2023 ZiPS projections have all been incorporated into the site, and while there will be some additions (platoon splits), changes (there’s a weird RBI bug affecting a handful of very poor minor league hitters) and updates to come, the player pages now contain the projections for the upcoming season. Our Depth Charts also reflect ZiPS along with Steamer, enabling David Appelman to crank up all the dials and flick all the switches, and you to blame me as well as Steamer when a team’s projection doesn’t look right to you!

Spring doesn’t actually start in the Northern Hemisphere until March 20 this year, but the real spring, baseball’s spring training, kicks off in a week when pitchers and catchers report. While it’s unlikely that these are the precise rosters that will eventually start playing exhibition games, the vast majority of the significant shifts in player talent have already happened.

So where do we stand?

Naturally, I used the ZiPS projection system to get the latest run of team win totals. Borrowing from my piece on the American League, the methodology I’m using here isn’t identical to the one we use in our Projected Standings, meaning there will naturally be some important differences in the results. So how does ZiPS calculate the season? Stored within ZiPS are the first through 99th-percentile projections for each player. I start by making a generalized depth chart, using our Depth Charts as a jumping off point. Since these are my curated projections, I make changes based on my personal feelings about who will receive playing time as filtered through arbitrary whimsy my logic and reasoning. ZiPS then generates a million versions of each team in Monte Carlo fashion — the computational algorithms, that is (no one is dressing up in a tuxedo and playing baccarat like James Bond).

After that is done, ZiPS applies another set of algorithms with a generalized distribution of injury risk that changes the baseline PAs/IPs for each player. Of note is that higher-percentile projections already have more playing time than lower-percentile projections before this step. ZiPS then automatically “fills in” playing time from the next players on the list (proportionally) to get to a full slate of plate appearances and innings.

The result is a million different rosters for each team and an associated winning percentage for each of those million teams. After applying the new strength of schedule calculations based on the other 29 teams, I end up with the standings for each of the million seasons. This is actually much less complex than it sounds.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

The goal of ZiPS is to be less mind-blowingly awful than any other way of predicting the future. The future is tantalizingly close but beyond our ken, and if anyone figures out how to deflect the astrophysicist Arthur Eddington’s arrow of time, it’s probably not going to be in the form of baseball projections. So we project probabilities, not certainties.

Over the last decade, ZiPS has averaged 19.9 correct teams when looking at Vegas preseason over/under lines. I’m always tinkering with methodology, but most of the low-hanging fruit in predicting how teams will perform has already been harvested. With one major exception, most of the problems now are about accuracy rather than bias. ZiPS’ misses for teams from year-to-year are uncorrelated, with an r-squared of one year’s miss to the next of 0.000575. Now, correlations with fewer than 20 points aren’t ideal, but the individual franchise with the highest year-to-year r-squared is the Mariners, at 0.03, which isn’t terribly meaningful. If you think that certain franchises have a history of predictive over- or underperformance, you thought wrong, and I’d bet it’s the same for the other notable projection systems.

Now, I did say there was one major exception, and that’s in-season roster changes. As you might suspect, ZiPS systematically underestimates teams that add value during the season and overrates teams that subtract value. So it’s not surprising that when you total it up, two of the teams that have made the most in-season additions over the last 17 seasons, the Astros and Yankees, are the two teams that have underperformed most often in ZiPS.

With that explanation out of the way, let’s get to the projected standings. We already tackled the AL, so let’s examine the current National League projections, beginning with the East.

ZiPS Projected Standings – National League East
Team W L GB Pct Div% WC% Playoff% WS Win%
Atlanta Braves 94 68 .580 47.1% 39.3% 86.5% 12.0%
New York Mets 94 68 .580 42.6% 41.8% 84.4% 10.9%
Philadelphia Phillies 85 77 9 .525 9.8% 37.0% 46.7% 2.6%
Miami Marlins 75 87 19 .463 0.5% 6.1% 6.7% 0.1%
Washington Nationals 64 98 30 .395 0.0% 0.1% 0.1% 0.0%

The Atlanta Braves are in just about their usual place in the ZiPS standings, ranking first by a hair with the New York Mets right on their heels. Atlanta’s median win total is robust for the same reason the disappointing White Sox showing displeased much of social media: the way ZiPS deals with depth. The Braves are very solidly built, with plausible Plan Bs at most positions. Indeed, the only real source of consternation is left field, a headache that’s never really enough to derail the team in the seasonal sims. For the White Sox, it’s the opposite; the Pale Hose are fairly dangerous if they enjoy a very good injury scenario but fall off very quickly if they don’t.

The Mets have frequently had their own depth issues, especially the late-era Wilpon rosters that closely resembled a Potemkin village. ZiPS was usually a few wins behind the projection consensus simply because it was designed to see the void behind the starting lineups and rotations of those years. Frequently, you’d see a rotation full of All-Star contenders, but then the number-seven starter would be a dragooned Door Dasher or the ninth caller on a local radio show. But that isn’t this team’s lot. Even without Carlos Correa, this is a dangerous squad.

Philadelphia’s projection would have looked a good deal more robust if not for the improvements in Atlanta and New York. I like the Phillies signing Trea Turner, far more of a “go big or go home” move than we’ve seen from the Phils the last couple of years. The problem is that ZiPS sees the Phillies’ roster as being both less strong and less deep than those of the two top teams here.

I keep waiting for the Marlins to both have a big pitching breakout and successfully cobble together an offense that’s just good enough not to stand in the former’s way. You get the sense that they were trying to do that with the Pablo López/Luis Arraez trade, but this team just needs so much on offense that it’s really hard to justify using pitchers as currency rather than, well, currency. As it stands, the pitching hasn’t broken out yet and the lineup seems likely to continue to struggle to find runs.

In terms of the playoff race, I don’t see any scenario in which the Nats play anything but spoiler. Yes, trading Juan Soto helped them restock the farm, but even if all those players work out, the Nats need so much more to compete in 2023.

ZiPS Projected Standings – National League Central
Team W L GB Pct Div% WC% Playoff% WS Win%
St. Louis Cardinals 91 71 .562 68.7% 10.4% 79.1% 8.1%
Milwaukee Brewers 83 79 8 .512 21.9% 17.8% 39.7% 1.8%
Chicago Cubs 78 84 13 .481 8.1% 9.7% 17.8% 0.5%
Cincinnati Reds 70 92 21 .432 0.9% 1.3% 2.1% 0.0%
Pittsburgh Pirates 68 94 23 .420 0.5% 0.7% 1.3% 0.0%

Contrary to popular belief, ZiPS usually likes the Cardinals and 2023 is no exception. They might have bled off a few wins in the projections, but when it comes down to it, the NL Central isn’t that fierce and none of St. Louis’ competitors have been that aggressive. The Brewers come the closest, and they have a very high “perfect health” upside. ZiPS just doesn’t like Milwaukee’s depth anywhere near at much as St. Louis’; this was also one of the biggest reasons ZiPS took the Cards over the Brewers in the 2022 preseason projections.

The Cubs are improved, but they’re still a team with holes to address. The addition of Jameson Taillon improves the middle of the rotation, but they still look to be behind the Cardinals and especially the Brewers there. And while the team is better with Dansby Swanson, it’s still missing a real high-end bat. They’re close enough to be interesting, but I’m accordance with the computer here: they’re clearly a big step behind the first two teams in the division.

I also agree with ZiPS on the bottom of the division. The computer is a big fan of Nick Lodolo and Hunter Greene, but doesn’t see much excitement elsewhere on the Reds’ roster, and the Pirates are bound to be towards the bottom of the division whether or not they retain the services of Bryan Reynolds.

ZiPS Projected Standings – National League West
Team W L GB Pct Div% WC% Playoff% WS Win%
San Diego Padres 91 71 .562 37.2% 38.3% 75.5% 7.9%
Los Angeles Dodgers 91 71 .562 36.0% 38.2% 74.2% 7.5%
San Francisco Giants 88 74 3 .543 21.3% 38.0% 59.3% 4.3%
Arizona Diamondbacks 81 81 10 .500 5.5% 20.8% 26.3% 1.0%
Colorado Rockies 66 96 25 .407 0.0% 0.4% 0.4% 0.0%

ZiPS surprised me a bit with the NL West. Not so much in terms of the order of the standings, but with the relatively small gap between the Dodgers and the Padres, and then the Giants. The first two are both terrific teams, but there are real downside concerns. The Padres have serious questions at DH and the quality of the rotation drops off quickly, and the Dodgers’ issues aren’t all that dissimilar. The Giants seem to have a lower ceiling than their rivals, but like the Braves and Cards, ZiPS sees them eking out a few extra wins simply by having enough depth to reduce the number of downside scenarios in the mystery bucket.

ZiPS loves Arizona’s young pitching, something I discussed in greater depth in their team rundown in December. Projected at the bottom division, to the surprise of practically no one who doesn’t work for the Colorado Rockies, are the Colorado Rockies. Rather than indulge my snark when you’re just here for the projections, I’ll simply say that this team has a serious talent shortfall and doesn’t seem particularly imaginative when it comes to using what they have.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

71 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Broken BatMember since 2020
3 years ago

Always intriguing. Dan, you mention lack of runs projected for Marlins. Understanding that roster changes happen because of injuries, trades and breakouts, can you possibly maybe show us what are the projected runs scored for each team as we sit a week before ST, and then maybe a close to opening day review? Thanks for all you do. For lent…. No beans in chili….

acgonzales7
3 years ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

This might be what you’re looking for, sorta. It’s for players but you can break it down by teams.

https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=all&stats=bat&type=zipsdc&lg=&team=20

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago

I rarely disagree with ZiPS, but I’d bet the under hard on the Giants.

motleycrue84Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

88 wins for Giants & Dodgers on par with SDP at 91 wins seems excessive.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Looks like they Correa would have mattered a lot

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

If you buy that they’re better than Milwaukee, Philly, TB, Cleveland, Seattle, etc and as good as Toronto without him, yes.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I rarely disagree with Dan, but I’d bet the over hard on how much Rockies snark we want from him.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

Everyone picks on the Popli kids Rockies.

montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

LOL The Rockies deserve to be laughed at. A Gosh awful team. An embarrassment actually.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

The Giants are kind of like the Rays in some ways where an army of 1 win players and aggressive platoons limit the downside. But the difference is that the Rays infield looks very good. Like, really really good. That team is not as good as the Rays.

I can see 88 wins but an average of 88 wins across the simulations seems very high. I would have guessed they would be close to .500, with their situation last year representing a lower bound of normal and 88 wins representing the upper bound of normal.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Another way of putting this is that if the Giants win 88 games, that would be a great scenario for them. They can go to Ohtani and say, look at how good we were with this ragtag group? Imagine how amazing we would be with you on board! That and $430M wouldn’t be enough, but it would at least get you an interview with him.

edges64Member since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Be prepared to lose money.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Not sure if I’m more stunned by an 8 game improvement or only being 3 losses worse than SD and LAD. Seems hard to believe on the surface for sure.

montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Absolutely agree on the Giants being under. To me they are a .500 team……maybe.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  montreal

The Giants outperformed their BaseRuns record last year; per BaseRuns, they would be at 84-78. But they lost Carlos Rodon, and probably it’s hard to imagine Joc Pederson has that type of offensive explosion again. Conforto and Haniger will help boost the offense a bit, but there are some pretty wide error bars around their potential contributions, and a scenario that involves playing Yastrzemski in CF full time and some combination of Haniger, Pederson, and Conforto in the corners has some serious downside risk defensively.

The one thing they do have is a ton of pitching depth. They go 7 deep on viable starters, which almost no one can say. This gives them a lot of breathing room to handle injuries, and limits the number of scenarios where they, say, win fewer than 75 games. But guys like Alex Wood and Anthony DeSclafani and Alex Cobb have huge health question marks, and Kyle Harrison is young, and Manaea and Stripling’s performance has a lot of question marks.

sterling62Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

So the Giants have 7 viable starters but 6 of them have huge question marks?
Wood had 5.10 era in 2022, DeScalfini 6.63, Manaea 4.96 and Harrison is 21 with only 18 starts in AA. Sounds like a pretty low bar for viable starters. Giants lost their best pitcher and still have among the deepest starting staff in MLB? Not to me, and I will take the under on 88 wins for the Giants.

edges64Member since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  sterling62

Wood had a 3.7 FIP, DeSclafani pitched 19 innings with an ankle injury, and Manaea is a legitimate bounce back target, especially if they can work on his seam-shifted changeup. Go to the Giants ZiPS article and you will see how many of their minor league pitchers are starting to project considerable value next year. There are some really promising bullpen arms such as Cole Waites (led minors in K rate), Sam Delaplane, RJ Dabovich, Darien Nunez, and Chris Wright. On the starting pitching depth side, Harrison is arguably the top LHP prospect in the game, Landen Roupp has dominated and moved extremely fast for a 12th rounder, there’s Keaton Winn and Ryan Murphy who also project for ERAs in the low 4s, and various others. Look these guys up, they’re all nasty.

Some of these guys will outperform their projections, and some won’t. But having depth like this allows the Giants FO to test many different options and eventually pick the squad who outperforms their projections the best. It’s a very bayesian approach.

acgonzales7
3 years ago

If the Braves manage to scrape together a solid LF platoon (or Rosario simply reverts to career averages) then I’m far less concerned about LF than SS.
Hopefully Grissom performs better than expected in Spring Training 🙏

downbaddav
3 years ago
Reply to  acgonzales7

yeah i mean why would you be concerned if rosario massively over performs his projections. wouldn’t move the needle much anyway because even at his best his OBP was terrible and he didn’t hit the ball very hard. grissom would need to just slightly over perform his projection to match what eddie could do under an absolutely best case scenario

acgonzales7
3 years ago
Reply to  downbaddav

Eddie just needs to be replacement level, bottom of the order bat to be an improvement from 2022. If not, they’ll just throw whoever’s next and see what sticks.
I’m not worried about Grissom’s offense, just his defense.

Dmjn53
3 years ago
Reply to  acgonzales7

He probably has to be better than replacement level to keep him job. Even a team as good as the Braves can’t be running out a 0 WAR LF

hughduffy
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

From March to July 2021, the Braves ran out a 79 wRC+ in LF, a 65 wRC+ in CF, and a 145 wRC+ in RF, for a 99 wRC+ outfield.

The deadline for an internal LF candidate to be a positive WAR LF is the trading deadline.

snakestl
3 years ago

Cardinals with the biggest gap between 1st/2nd place of any division in MLB feels right.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  snakestl

Lowest WC odds of any .500 or better team

Vernon Wells' Agent
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

That’s what happens when you win the division almost 70% of the time.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  snakestl

I don’t see a significant gap between the Cards and Brewers at all. Milwaukee has been consistently very good for awhile now, e.g., they have a better cumulative record than St. Louis over the past six seasons. And they led the Cardinals at the Trade Deadline by four games last year, before their Hader trade radically undermined team morale.

And over the winter they acquired their own member of the Catching Contreras All-Star Brothers — the much younger and cheaper one. Finally, they almost certainly have a better manager than St. Louis. I consider that division a toss-up.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

It wasn’t just the Hader trade that flipped the division after the trade deadline. The Cardinals also made two very good improvements at the deadline, one of whom is back for this season.

I’ll give you younger, although Willson is still only 30 himself, but being cheaper has nothing to do with which Contreras brother will actually perform better this year.

Oli Marmol isn’t a bad manager, and we really need to see more than just a single season from him to properly compare him to Counsell.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

You’re right, I should’ve also mentioned Mozeliak’s trades for the two southpaws. But I believe the relative cost of the two Contreras brothers is pertinent, since the cheaper player obviously leaves more payroll room for other additions. (Note that St. Louis has added nothing other than Willson this winter.) At catcher, the Cardinals made a necessary move. The Brewers made a borderline brilliant one.

As for the final point, yup, Marmol is in fact a bad manager. It’d get pretty tedious, but if you want, I can name the 5 or 6 worse MLB managers, and roughly 15-18 who are better than Ollie. The rest, can’t tell yet.

But instead, since you’re the one refuting my premise — the prima facie case is made by Marmol’s disastrous mis-managing of his pitching staff during game one of the playoffs — maybe you would like to nominate, say, a dozen MLB managers who are worse than Marmol. That would push him into the borderline adequate range.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago

“If you want to disagree with me, you’ll need to provide a ranked list of every manager in MLB.” Be serious.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  raregokus

You misrepresented what I said. I expect that at political websites, but not Fangraphs.

Naming a dozen managers worse than Marmol is wholly different from “ranking every manager in MLB.” The latter would take hours. The former, no time at all.

I’ll put myself on the clock right now, and name 15 better current managers than Ollie Marmol in less than three minutes. Actually, it’ll be quicker to name by teams. Milwaukee, Dodgers, Padres, Giants, Mets, Braves, Phillies, Astros, Mariners, Cleveland, the Twins, and every team in the A.L. East.. Okay, that’s 16. And I’d throw in Maddon & Matheny if I can include available managers who worked in the past couple of years.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Marmol is certainly a better manager than Matheny. That is guaranteed!

Lanidrac
3 years ago

The Cardinals still have adequate payroll room. They just lost out on some targets after Contreras and ultimately decided to hold pat rather than spending just because they could. They’ll be in prime position to add to the payroll at trade deadline, even if they have to eat some money to facilitrate a trade.

Marmol did *not* mismanage that playoff game! It made perfect sense to use Helsley for 2 innings there. It just didn’t work out in his 2nd inning of work.

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I actually think Marmol did mismanage that playoff game, but only in the 9th inning – he had too slow of a hook with Helsley once it was clear his finger was affecting his location, and he was too aggressive in pulling his infielders in – but had a great game up to that point, and is generally a terrific manager imo. I probably watched 150 Cards games last year, and I have zero clue what Niels-Henning is talking about calling him terrible (although I do like Counsell quite a lot as well).

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago

Thanks for responding, GG Braggs. I wouldn’t say Marmol is a terrible manager. But “bad” is a fair appraisal, distinctly below average for an MLB manager.

I’ll try and keep this concise as possible while being thorough. With a boring, reliable, effective swingman in Jake Woodford available, Marmol instead gave 13 starts to the combination of Hicks, Naughton, Oviedo, and Zack Thompson. (None of whom had ever even succeeded as a AAA starter, much less MLB.) They gave the team a grand total of 43.1 innings (3.1 per start) and a 6.65 ERA. This debacle was both foreseeable and entirely avoidable.

That baker’s dozen disaster directly cost the team a game or two, and there’s no telling the indirect cost of burning relief pitchers over & over & over, due to those abbreviated outings. (Recall also that Woodford was very good when making several starts in September of 2021. A couple April starts for Hicks was defensible, if illogical. But dodging Woodford at all costs, all year, was frankly bizarre.)

Marmol started the year with Dylan Carlson at leadoff. Nothing wrong with that, in theory. And when it backfired, he wisely removed Carlson in late April with a .489 OPS. At which point Carlson immediately started to hit, and lifted his OPS to .743 by July 23.

Okay, so you leave Carlson alone and let him continue to succeed while hitting mainly 6th and 7th, right? Wrong. That’s when Marmol inexplicably sent him *back* to leadoff. Carlson then went 6-55 over the next three weeks in the leadoff slot.

You see, instead of putting his hitters and pitchers in the best position to succeed, he too frequently ignores on-field performance and instead puts them where HE thinks they *ought* to be able to succeed.

Also, in the playoff Game One, he ignored the two main rules of managing pitchers in October. (1)Stay with a hot pitcher until he starts to struggle. (2)Remove a struggling pitcher fast. And obviously the second rule goes double for a pitcher who just injured his throwing hand three days before the playoff game.

As for Marmol v. Matheny, well Matheny managed 43 playoff games and bungled one of them — the Wacha gaffe in 2014. Marmol has managed two October games and blown one of them. Matheny also led the team to the best record in the majors twice. I don’t expect the same from Marmol anytime soon.

montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago

I agree the Cards are not as good as most people believe. Pitching may be a real problem for the Cards. For the Brewers if Freddy Peralta is healthy then their pitching may keep them close to the Cardinals.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  montreal

The Cardinals’ pitching is still very good. It’s a much lower gap than the reverse between their offenses.

If you want to play the health guarantee game, then if Jack Flaherty is healthy, the Cardinals’ rotation is almost as good as the Brewers’.

LathundMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  snakestl

Cardinals are the favorites in the NLC, but it’s not really that big of a gap. Both Steamer and ZiPS are extremely positive about the Cardinals, projecting essentially every hitter to be better than their career wRC+ (Except the 35 year old Goldschmidt who is projected at 140 wRC+ vs 144 wRC+ for his career, and Brandon Donovan). Now I don’t really know why that is, but when it affects an entire roster I’d start to wonder whether there was something systematic. Even if it isn’t though, that’s the kind of projection I’d take the under on every time.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Lathund

Well, I can take a crack at that:
Contreras – Don’t know, although it should still be around his career wRC+
Edman – Likely still developing as a hitter.
Arenado – Don’t know, especially since he should still get penalized somewhat for his Colorado years.
O”Neill – He is indeed likely to bounceback closer to his breakout 2021 season after his injury-plagued season last year.
Carlson – Another likely bounceback candidate and also still developing.
Nootbaar – Still developing as a hitter.
Yepez – Ditto
Burleson – Ditto
Gorman – Ditto
DeJong – The potential is still somewhat there to at least hit better than he has over the last 3 seasons.
Knizner – Potentially still developing as a hitter, but it doesn’t really matter, since he’ll still suck even if he does improve over his career wRC+

So mostly it’s because of all the youth they now have on their offense.

JayMember since 2023
3 years ago
Reply to  Lathund

I don’t think it’s that complicated. A bunch of those hitters are guys like Gorman, Yepez and Burleson, whose “career” numbers come from a handful of PAs in their rookie seasons. All of these guys destroyed the upper minors, and they’re projected to be good-not-great hitters. Seems totally reasonable. Others are guys like Arenado and Contreras, who are veterans coming off of career years. Their projections regress them heavily toward their career numbers, but give them a little bit of credit for the huge offensive seasons they just had in 2022.Then there’s Carlson and O’Neill. Both young players who had big years in 2021 before struggling with injuries in 2022. Their projections basically split the difference between 2021 and 2022. Which of these seem unreasonable to you?

Richie
3 years ago

Being stupid in nature, I’ll try again.

So do your ZIPs individual player projections know about the new, balanced schedule? (my impression was, no they didn’t have that factored in there)

Are your personal depth chart adjustments, the ones you just made, available anywhere?

theflusher
3 years ago

Danny the only one not sleeping on these Gigantes. At least one person knows ball around here

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  theflusher

If you want to put money on the Giants over with 88 as a push, just say so.

theflusher
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I do

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  theflusher

Then I propose a gentleman’s agreement: If the Giants win more than 88, I’ll donate $100 to a 501(c)3 charity of your choice. If they win fewer, you donate to mine.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I think there are enough gambling sites on the internet that you don’t need to turn FanGraphs into one too.

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  raregokus

There are never enough sites pushing donations to chartible causes, even using this term broadly, so I’m all for it!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Man unless we start seeing extensions soon the Brewers are gonna waste that rotation and having a legitimate shortstop. Just a totally uninspired ending to a great bit of player development.

I mean this team gets to beat up on the Reds and Pirates and they’re at about the same level as the D-Backs record. That’s a major bummer.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

They really bet on Yelich being the guy, and it doesn’t seem like there’s a Plan B to take that next step. With the 2018/2019 7 win version of Yelich, they’d be right there.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
jandys
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

well, have multiple guys under expensive contract until their mid/late 30s is not a very good plan for small market team either. It would make them better in 2025-26 but the next 4-5 years would be brutal in this scenario.

Last edited 3 years ago by juju
Dmjn53
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The Yelich contract really couldn’t have worked our much worse for them

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

It’s bad, but there are certainly ways it could be worse. At least he’s been mostly healthy and putting up above-average offensive numbers.

montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yes I agree. How can you waste a rotation with Woodruff, Corbin Burns and Freddy Peralta.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Also it’s telling how stacked the NL is at the top. The Padres, Dodgers, Mets, Braves, and Cards are near playoff locks. The Phillies go to the World Series and add a megastar shortstop and are on the outside of that group. If the Brewers and D-Backs get hot, and if the Giants for whatever reason are really that good, you’re going to be a couple of really hot races for those bottom wild card spots.

si.or.noMember since 2017
3 years ago

I would be interested in a win distribution breakdown for teams. How many of those million scenarios ended with 94 wins? How many with 100? How many with 84?

David Klein
3 years ago

Mets starting pitching depth is as good as its been since what the late 80’s early 90’s? Peterson is in most teams rotations and Lucchesi and Megill are in a handful of rotations at least. I would bet on Peterson getting 15-20 starts again just because of the age and fragility of the rotation. This nl east will be a wild ride once again the less games vs the nl east will hurt the Mets as they smashed the Marlins, Phillies and Nats last year.

montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Peterson and Megill would be in almost every team’s rotation. As a matter of fact I think it is a farce for the team to block them.

sogoodlooking
3 years ago
Reply to  montreal

Peterson as a starter doesn’t average 5 innings per start. His career FIP is 4.18, his ERA is 4.26, and his ERA+ is 94. He’s not a starter on a contender. As for Megill he’s significantly worse, giving up a warranted 1.7 HR/9, career, a 4.73 career ERA, a 4.37 FIP, and an 84 ERA+. Nor can Megill average 5 innings per start. He can’t stay healthy, either.

Both were brought up much too soon and missed a critical year apiece, if not more, in the minors. Megill had all of 45 innings above A ball when he was brought up under desperate circumstances. They’ve been mishandled and, to date, simply aren’t good enough to deserve anything like a guaranteed spot.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago

“Contrary to popular belief, ZiPS usually likes the Cardinals…”
I guess it depends on how one defines “likes”, but ZiPS has fallen 4 or 5 wins short in its St. Louis projections over the past three full seasons. Last year tallied 93-to-88, in 2021 it was 90-to-86, and in 2019 ZiPS said 86, and the actual win total was 91. Far from egregious underestimations, but still consistently a level too low.

I’m guessing Dan’s rebuttal would be: if ZiPS says you’ll win 86-88 games, then it DOES like you. If so, ignore the above. 😉

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016
3 years ago

I believe Dan has said ZiPS has missed under most on StL and NYY. If ZiPS irrationally hates the Yankees and Cardinals, it is my new best friend!

If that fact is not true, and I’m just making things up to hate on those teams, I don’t care. I’m rolling with it.

Rollie's MustacheMember since 2017
3 years ago

Dang it, Dan. Rockies snark is why I came here 🙁

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago

Miami checking in with the 0.1% chance of winning the WS. Nice.

goatMember since 2026
3 years ago

St. Louis Cardinals are like the big, intimidating boy on his third trip though 6th grade.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  goat
mattMember since 2023
3 years ago

I’ll take the under on the Giants. I agree with the premise they are deep but outside of webb they lack difference makers. And for all the offseason talk about them targeting getting more athletic they did the exact opposite of that. Outfield defense will be a big problem again

Last edited 3 years ago by matt
montrealMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  matt

Agreed. I just don’t see the Giants in playoff contention.

Dmjn53
3 years ago

Yea I’m just not seeing it with the Giants, a teams whose most valuable position player was Thairo Estrada’s 2.6 WAR last year

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

ZiPS seems pretty positive on a lot of these guys. Using the Depth Charts projections, ZiPS projects 3.1 wins for Yastrzemski, 3.0 for Estrada, 2.9 for Brandon Crawford, and 2.4 for both Michael Conforto and Mitch Haniger. I buy some of these more than others.

rhyde1990Member since 2021
3 years ago

Minus the Dodgers/Padres, these projected standings are basically how the standings finished last year.

kozy21
3 years ago

The Pirates won 62 games last year despite the offense being worth 6.7 WAR. Hayes, Reynolds, Suwinski, Cruz, and Castro combined for 9.8 WAR. Cruz, Suwinski, and Castro each only played about a half season and Reynolds had kind of a down year and Hayes had an injured back all year. I’d say those 5 could easily exceed 12 WAR this year. The rest of team was worth -3.1 WAR. Almost all of those players are gone. There are only 7 players from the 2022 opening roster still on the 40 man. No Josh VanMeters. No Yoshi Tsutsugos. No Greg Allens. All of them are gone. They gave almost 50 starts to Bryse Wilson, Zach Thompson, and Tyler Beede. All of them are gone. Mitch Keller had a 3.22 ERA over his last 22 starts. Roansy Contreras looks to have a floor of a 3 with a 1/2 ceiling. Their 6-9 are Johan Oviedo, Luis Ortiz, Quinn Priester, and Mike Burrows. Legit prospects. There’s no Jared Eickhoffs to worry about. This team is 6 wins better just by attrition. There’s also a severely upgraded bullpen. Better BP, better rotation, way better at 1B, DH, and SS. Catcher will be severely upgraded by either Endy Rodriguez or Henry Davis or both by June/July. They aren’t going to contend for a playoff spot but I don’t think it’s that crazy to see this team make a run at 80 wins and look like last year’s Orioles. I say 76-86 with a chance for more if even 25% of their young guys break out.

shampain
3 years ago

ZIPS doesn’t underrate the Cardinals, IIRC it has done the best job predicting the Cardinals by far, but PECOTA was too pessimistic on the Cardinals for something like 10 straight years by an average of 12 wins. Probably still is, but after awhile I just stopped checking.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  shampain

Well, ZiPS has been roughly 5 wins too low on St. Louis per year, over the past three full seasons. (As you say, that’s nothing like how PECOTA was for many years. That became a pretty funny running joke.)

I suspect that teams that produce a lot of home-grown guys are also teams that get underrated most frequently by projection models, because they are able to backfill better via their farm system, and also have more unexpected breakouts. I’m guessing the most underrated teams over the past 4-5 years includes Tampa, the Dodgers, and the Braves, as well as St. Louis.

For instance, who saw Strider or Harris or Nootbaar or Donovan coming? Only Harris was ever a top 100 prospect anywhere, or drafted in the first three rounds — and he barely qualified on the latter, as the 98th overall pick in 2019.