The Big Questions About the 2025 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Last year was an enjoyable one on the Hall of Fame front. After a three-cycle stretch during which BBWAA voters elected just two candidates (nobody for 2021, David Ortiz for ’22, and Scott Rolen for ’23), they tabbed three for the 2024 ballot, namely first-year candidates Adrian Beltré and Joe Mauer, and holdover Todd Helton. While some of the debates were contentious, the end result felt like a return to the good old days of the 2014–20 stretch, when the writers elected an unprecedented flood of 22 honorees in seven years, an impressive lot that did nothing to dilute the caliber of the players elected. If that’s your idea of fun, I have good news, as the 2025 BBWAA ballot — which was released on Monday — offers another excellent opportunity to elect multiple high-quality candidates, with 3,000 hit club member Ichiro Suzuki and 10th-year holdover Billy Wagner the most likely honorees.
Over the next six weeks, I’ll profile all of the ones likely to wind up on voters’ ballots ahead of the December 31 deadline, with a handful of profiles trickling into January. I’ll be examining their cases in light of my Jaffe WAR Score (JAWS) system, which I’ve used to break down Hall of Fame ballots as part of an annual tradition that by the end of this cycle will be old enough to drink (I did a 20th-anniversary retrospective in January). The series debuted at Baseball Prospectus (2004-12), then moved to SI.com (2013-18), which provided me an opportunity to go into greater depth on each candidate. In 2018, I brought the series to FanGraphs, where my coverage has become even more expansive.
Today I’ll offer a quick look at the biggest questions attached to this year’s election cycle, but first…
The Basics
To be eligible for election to the Hall of Fame via the BBWAA ballot, a candidate must have played in the majors for parts of 10 years (one game is sufficient to be counted as a year in this context), have been out of the majors for five years (the minors or foreign leagues don’t count), and then have been nominated by two members of the BBWAA’s six-member screening committee. Since the balloting is titled with respect to induction year, not the year of release, that means that this year’s newcomers last appeared in the majors in 2019; Suzuki’s eligibility was bumped back a year due to his two-game farewell with the Mariners at the Tokyo Dome. Each new candidate has 10 years of eligibility on the ballot, a reduction from the 15-year period that was in effect for several decades. The last candidate grandfathered into getting the full 15 years was Lee Smith, whose eligibility expired in 2017, while the last candidate who had his eligibility window truncated mid-candidacy was Jeff Kent, who fell off the ballot after the 2023 cycle.
To be elected, a candidate must receive at least 75% of the ballots cast, and in this case, they don’t round up; 74.9% won’t cut it. Likewise, candidates who don’t receive at least 5% of the vote fall off the ballot and can then only be considered for election by what’s now called the Contemporary Baseball Era Committee, an entirely separate process — but not until what would have been their 10-year run of eligibility expires.
The voters, each of whom has been an active BBWAA member for at least 10 years and is no more than 10 years removed from active coverage, can list as many as 10 candidates on their ballots, a number that’s become a point of contention in recent years given the high volume of qualified candidates. In 2015, the Hall tabled a BBWAA proposal to expand the ballot to 12 slots (I was on the committee that recommended the change). Last year, the ninth since the Hall purged the rolls of voters more than 10 years removed from coverage, 385 ballots were cast, the fewest of any cycle since 1983. That’s a reduction of 33% over nine years.
Ballots must be postmarked by December 31 (yes, the BBWAA still does this by mail). Voters may reveal their ballots prior to the announcement, as 53% of voters did last year; you can track the reported ballots via Ryan Thibodaux’s Ballot Tracker if you want (if you’re looking to follow along with the Tracker as ballots are revealed, Ryan has moved his crew’s base of operations from Twitter to Bluesky). Voters can also check a box on the ballot to authorize the publication of their choices via the BBWAA’s website two weeks after the election results are revealed (at the last Winter Meetings, the writers voted to change this from an opt-in to an opt-out, but I’ve been told by the Hall that the proposal didn’t reach the board in time for it to be considered, which, grrr). Between BBWAA.com and the Tracker, 82.1% of voters revealed their ballots in 2024, two points below the record of 84.1% from ’20.
I’ll be revealing my own ballot here at FanGraphs a few days before the deadline, taking readers through my thought process as I explain which boxes I’ll be checking. This will be my fifth year as a voter, and no, the novelty hasn’t worn off. For those who want to play along at home, registered FanGraphs users will be able to participate via our crowdsource ballot, which we will post soon.
The election results will be announced on MLB Network on January 21. Any players elected will join any honorees elected via the Classic Baseball Era Committee ballot, whose results will be announced on December 8, for the Induction Ceremony scheduled for July 27, 2025 on the grounds of the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, New York.
Are you going to tell us who’s actually on the ballot?
Hold your baserunners, I’m getting to it. The ballot released on Monday includes 14 holdovers from last year’s slate and 14 newcomers, noted in italics:
Bobby Abreu, Carlos Beltrán, Mark Buehrle, Carlos González, Curtis Granderson, Félix Hernández, Torii Hunter, Adam Jones, Andruw Jones, Ian Kinsler, Russell Martin, Brian McCann, Dustin Pedroia, Andy Pettitte, Hanley Ramirez, Manny Ramirez, Fernando Rodney, Alex Rodriguez, Francisco Rodríguez, Jimmy Rollins, CC Sabathia, Ichiro Suzuki, Troy Tulowitzki, Chase Utley, Omar Vizquel, Billy Wagner, David Wright, Ben Zobrist
Are any of the newcomers locks to be elected this year?
During a 19-year stateside career that didn’t even begin until he was 27 years old, Suzuki collected 3,089 hits, won AL Rookie of the Year and MVP honors, claimed two batting titles and the single-season hits record, made 10 All-Star teams and won 10 Gold Gloves. There’s no doubt that he’ll be elected during this cycle, but the question is whether he’ll become the first position player to be elected unanimously. No, he wasn’t a better player than Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, or Hank Aaron, all of whom fell short of 100% for no damn reason, but like Mariano Rivera, the only player to date to be elected unanimously, he has the combination of accomplishments and a certain universal popularity that makes me wonder if he could pull this off. He was not only beloved by fans and teammates, but he served as such an outstanding international ambassador for the sport that it’s difficult to anticipate objection to his entry. Then again, as the case of Derek Jeter showed, there’s always some petty and selfish voter willing to hide behind the cloak of anonymity to play the spoiler.
What about Sabathia?
With 251 career victories, 3,093 strikeouts (third-highest for a left-hander), six All-Star appearances, a Cy Young and a World Series ring, Sabathia has credentials that far surpass those of many Hall of Famers. His 50.8 S-JAWS is below the standard, but among those who debuted since the 1994 players’ strike, only Clayton Kershaw, Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander, Zack Greinke, and Roy Halladay rank higher. Throw in Sabathia’s compelling narrative arc, which included remaking himself as a finesse pitcher in the wake of chronic knee problems, a very public battle with alcoholism, and a role mentoring younger Black players, and I expect his candidacy to resonate with voters. I don’t know yet whether he’ll generate enough support for first-year entry, but at the very least I anticipate his election in the not-too-distant future.
Which holdovers have a chance to get elected this year?
Wagner, who ranks sixth all-time in R-JAWS, is in the 10th and final year of his candidacy on the writers’ ballot. He received 73.8% of the vote last year, missing by five votes. Though his 903 innings would be the lowest of any enshrined reliever, his sheer dominance and his underdog story — a 5-foot-10 natural righty who grew up in poverty and who learned to throw left-handed after breaking his right arm twice as a child — have put him on the precipice of election.
Updating numbers from last year as they related to Helton, of the last 24 times a candidate received at least 70% but less than 75% and still had eligibility remaining, that candidate was elected the next year 21 times, with the exceptions being Jim Bunning (twice) and Curt Schilling. The former was done in once by a barrage of blank ballots and once by a crowd of stronger candidates, while the latter found increasingly intricate and offensive ways to sabotage his own candidacy as he approached 75%.
Two other returning candidates received at least 50% of the vote last year, namely Andruw Jones (61.6% in his seventh year) and Beltrán (57.1% in his second). While I believe both are headed for eventual election — the latter gained over 10 points from his debut, suggesting some amount of forgiveness from his participation in the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal — they’re not likely to jump to 75% from where they are, particularly with the top of the ballot already somewhat crowded. Over the past decade, just three candidates have crossed the 75% threshold after receiving less than 65% the year before: Mike Mussina (63.5% in 2018, 76.9% in ’19), Larry Walker (54.6% in 2019, 76.6% in ’20), and Rolen (63.2% in 2022, 76.3% in ’23). The situations of Walker and Rolen had some extra urgency attached, as the former was in his final year of eligibility and was one of two candidates elected (along with Jeter), while the latter was the BBWAA’s only honoree that year. Mussina, one of four honorees in 2019, therefore offers the closest potential parallel to the situations of Jones or Beltrán, but he had a slightly higher level of support going into that cycle.
Does anything else stand out to you among the newcomers?
Two subgroups of first-year candidates are worth noting. At some point in their careers, Hernández, Pedroia, and Tulowitzki all looked like Hall of Famers in the making, with the two position players in that trio both surpassing 40.0 peak WAR, a strong indicator of future election. Unfortunately, Hernández wore down due to overuse and conditioning issues, while Pedroia and Tulowitzki were derailed by injuries; all three are up for election while Verlander, who’s older than any of them, is still plugging away. Nobody from that trio has Hall-caliber numbers, alas, but I suspect that like Wright, they may generate enough support to stick around for another ballot.
Also catching my eye is the pair of catchers, Martin and McCann. While neither looks particularly impressive based on traditional catcher JAWS, they were among the elite pitch framers of their era, boosting their value to the point that they’re worth mentioning in a discussion that also includes Mauer, Buster Posey (eligible in 2027), and Yadier Molina (eligible in 2028).
Hold on, what’s “traditional catcher JAWS?”
That’s just JAWS using the standard inputs of career WAR and seven-peak WAR, with Total Zone and DRS for defense. We have pitch framing data for all of the aforementioned catchers’ careers through Baseball Prospectus — including their retroframing methodology from the pre-pitch tracking days — and our own methodology, and for those guys, it amounts to 12-18 extra points of JAWS. I’ve long held that we can’t do justice to any of their candidacies without considering this trove of data, whether or not the forthcoming automatic ball and strike technology reduces the importance of framing at some point. To that end, you’ll see references to framing-inclusive JAWS in my coverage of their candidacies, as was the case for Mauer last year.
How about those PED guys?
There isn’t much new to report, because nothing’s changed. Nobody suspended by Major League Baseball either for testing positive or incurring a non-analytic positive (i.e., identified as a user via a league investigation such as Biogenesis) since testing began in 2004 has been elected. Manny Ramirez received 32.5% in year eight while Alex Rodriguez received 34.8% in year three; for both, that represented a loss of support, albeit by less than a point. Their candidacies are stalled, as nobody is changing their mind about guys caught red-handed.
Are there any down-ballot candidates that you have hope for?
To these eyes, the one who stands out is Utley. Though he didn’t play 100 games or get 300 plate appearances in a season until he was 26, he made six All-Star teams, helped the Phillies to five straight division titles, two pennants, and a championship, and ranks 12th in JAWS among second basemen (56.9), 0.2 points below the standard, and ninth in peak (49.3), 4.8 WAR above the standard. He’s a stathead favorite who derived about 200 runs worth of value from his defense, baserunning, and double play avoidance, but due to his short career, he finished with just 1,885 hits. The writers haven’t elected anybody from the post-1960 expansion era with fewer than 2,000 hits, so I was concerned about how he’d fare when he debuted last year. Despite solid support on the early waves of published ballots — 39.2% heading into the day of the announcement — he brought home a modest 28.8% share. Obviously, that leaves him with a ways to go, but it’s well ahead of what Rolen (10.2% in 2018) or Helton (16.5%) drew in their first years, and about what former teammates Abreu and Rollins (both 14.8%) drew combined. Though he never won an MVP award or a Gold Glove, Utley’s numbers compare favorably to the two star second basemen debuting on this ballot, Pedrioa and Kinsler, and that should help.
While I have a few other candidates to cover on the Classic Era ballot, profiles of these candidates should begin rolling out here soon, and I’ll publish a preliminary schedule when our crowdsource ballot goes live.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
I have high hopes for Utley but it seems like it is going to take a while. Don’t think he’s getting in earlier than Rolen did, and probably more like a year or two later.
I agree that Utley misses this year but gets in eventually, but I think it’s faster than Rolen. Rolen was hurt by a more crowded ballot. For a big hall type, there were 10+ clearly deserving candidates (including PED guys ) and another dozen worthy of serious discussion during his first few years. For Utley it’s more like 3 clearly deserving (2 PED guys and Beltran with the Astros stink) and then maybe 7 guys worthy of consideration, of which Utley is at or near the top. I’d guess he gets 35-45% in year 1 and is elected in year 3.
Pettitte, Andruw Jones and Utley are deserving
people always forget that Pettitte was a PED cheater, too.
He used HGH to try and recover from an injury. Not even remotely close to what guys like Clemens were doing.
Why do people keep accepting that like it’s the truth? That’s why Andy said he did it. We don’t actually know that’s a fact.
I give Pettitte credit for admitting what he did even though he wasn’t caught “red handed” so to speak. He decided against living the rest of his life as a public liar. I wish more other guys would have followed suit. That also makes me more inclined to believe him about the extent of his use.
Let’s be serious for a second. David Ortiz is in the hall of fame. If Ortiz is in the hall of fame, there’s zero reason to keep Pettitte out (other than if you just don’t think he was good enough, which is very fair). Otherwise, you’re just admitting that lying pays off.
I didn’t forget that. I simply don’t consider it
I’ve always loved reading Jaffe’s analysis combined with watching Brian Kenny opine on the Hall of Fame voting on MLB Now. Unfortunately, MLB Now has not aired this offseason. It feels like MLB Network has cut back to save money, which is a shame.
Does anyone else think it’s crazy that Sabathia feels like a lock while Felix could fall off the ballot? The difference between them is a handful of 2 WAR seasons…
https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=404,4772
No, that’s what separates A LOT of guys that don’t get into the HOF.
If Utley had 3-4 more 2 WAR seasons, he’d have been in on the 1st ballot.
If Pedroia & Tulo could have hung around for 4-5 2 WAR seasons (while playing full time) they would likely get in, too. Both were basically done at 32-33. (like Felix). Give them the extra counting stats from 4-5 more years & there case would be more compelling.
Look at the guys that are on the Veteran’s committee this year (Parker, Allen, Garvey, Tiant, John, etc)..almost all of them you could say if they had 2-4 more years of compiling stats, the raw #’s would be enough to have gotten them in a long time ago.
While I agree with your point generally, looking at some of the Veteran’s Committee ballot this year gives us the opposite of your point. Namely, Tommy John and Steve Garvey never got in because they had too many 2-3 WAR seasons, playing for a long time without ever being a “star” in terms of WAR. As always with these things, a balance is needed.
Although in the case of John I think playing 15 years after his eponymous surgery is a piece of baseball history that changed the game and more than qualifies him (along with Frank Jobe).
My argument about Tommy John is that being a compiler isn’t so impressive *unless* it involves coming back from an injury no one had ever recovered from before. Having a zillion 3 WAR seasons is a big shrug except that it is magnified by the recovery itself.
You say that as if there’s no value in having a zillion 3 WAR seasons. Fame is achieved in various ways.
I guess it depends on the precise definition of “zillion”
a gazillion x 10^-3
Fair, but, what I was really thinking was 2-3 more seasons of “average” play “compiling stats”, because those guys all played before WAR was even around.
Garvey ended up with 2599 hits. Considering he had 200 hits 6x & another with over 190 (& didn’t have a full season until 25 & was done at 37.), give him 2-3 years of full time play, he cracks 3,000 & is in. & Garvey really WAS considered a big star when he played (incorrectly), he just never hit any of the big career benchmarks. Give him 2-3 more years & he clears 300 HR, 1500 RBI, along with the hits.
John had 288 wins..give him 1 more year with 12 wins & he’s in regardless of anything else. (& he SHOULD be in anyway)
If Hall of FAME means anything to the voters, Garvey will have a better chance than most (Parker being 2nd). He was one of the most famous players of his era
100%. That’s why JAWS uses both peak and career WAR.
I agree that that is true, and I’m saying that it’s a bunch of crap.
Felix had a 6yr run from 2009-2014 where he was worth 37 WAR. Over 6 per season, took the ball every 5th day, led the league in IP, 2nd in WAR (Kershaw), 2nd in ERA (Kershaw again). There’s a reason his nickname was King Felix.
If that’s not HOF-worthy, what are we even doing?
The standards have to adjust to account for modern workloads. Guys aren’t throwing 200+ innings regularly because they’re asking more of their arms on a per-pitch basis, which is an absolute requirement to get present-day major leaguer hitters out.
No one is sniffing 300 wins again. Cole *should* get to 200 (not a lock by any means), but after that, who’s next? Maybe Chris Sale if his arm doesn’t fall off? And then what?
Do you know who the active leader in Wins is among SP under 30? Of course not, because it’s German Marquez, and he has a grand total of 65 of them.
The game has changed. If HOF voters don’t respond accordingly there will be a dearth of pitchers from my youth who make it to Cooperstown.
You need more than “six great years and nothing else” to be a lock.
Well it’s a good job Felix had 5 other years between 2.3 and 3.6 WAR then isn’t it. He should be in, we are going to be hugely underweight pitchers if he doesn’t reach the standard
Yeah there’s half a dozen guys on this ballot who put together a stretch of all star seasons. That’s “big hall” criteria. I favor it being more selective and I’m ok with saying Kershaw, Verlander, Grienke, and Scherzer are HOFers due to being in the top tier the majority of their careers and the rest just aren’t quite their peers (although I need to look closer at Sabathia). I think Felix is a bit short.
To quote yourself: “As always with these things, a balance is needed.”
Again, that’s exactly what JAWS does. It provides balance. Felix, as you point out, is basically all peak. Now maybe you think peak should weigh more than overall career. If so, that’s fine.
But in general, the HOF voters have rejected that argument. There are very few “all-peak” guys in the HOF. Koufax, Dizzy Dean, maybe a few others who aren’t coming to mind right now.
And they rejected it again just a few years ago with Johan Santana. Who had a better peak than Felix.
I think most people agree that the standards need to change in the future. But I don’t see how that applies to Felix. He’s of the same generation as Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, and Greinke. Guys who have a LOT more WAR than Felix and a relatively similar number of innings pitched.
As above, Felix had a 6 year peak of 37 WAR (better than Johan Santana, so unless you are defining peak as 3 years or less no his peak wasn’t better) but also 5 other seasons between 2.3 and 3.6 WAR. So 6 years as one of the very best pitchers in the sport plus another 5 as a high quality starter isn’t ’all peak’, and is why he’s got 10 more career WAR than Santana
I’m looking at Baseball Reference WAR since that’s what JAWS is built around and this is Jay’s article.
Beyond that I’ll give you this:
2 CY Youngs vs 1
3 times leading the league in ERA vs once
2 times leading the league in innings pitched vs once
3 times leading the league in K’s vs 0
3 times leading the league in ERA+ vs once
3 times leading the league in FIP vs once
4 times leading the league in WHIP vs once
3 times leading the league in K/9 vs 0
Fine, fine. But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?!
Felix’s career might have been shortened by the fact that his inability to get batters out after the age of 30…but both he and Santana’s careers featured far too many balls in play for anyone to think fWAR had any relevance in the conversation.
Unless the man in question were either a naïf entirely ignorant of pitchers’ empirical impact on BABIP…or being deliberately disingenuous to support “their guy.”
xERA makes it pretty clear that Felix’s rWAR in just 30s is *propped up* by his defense, relative even to the numbers.
Any time you look out into the tails of a distribution, the best of the best are going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the merely far above average.
The WAR gap between Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera is wider than that between Greinke and Felix. But no one in their right mind is arguing that Miggy isn’t a HOFer because Pujols exists.
Felix is 7th in WAR among all SPs since 2000. If that’s not good enough, what are we doing?
Say Cole accrues 10 more WAR for the rest of his career – totally reasonable given that he’s 34 and has lost a tick or two on his heater. He’ll end up with 56 fWAR, just ahead of Felix. Will we say that isn’t sufficient either? Will we still be saying it in ~2034, when Cole is first eligible for Hall inclusion?
I doubt it. So let’s just rip the bandaid off now and be honest about what a HOF pitcher is in the post-steroid era, rather than waiting decades for the Veterans Committee to adjudicate it.
Cabrera is comfortably above the line that most people consider to be HOF worthy. Hernandez is below that line. That’s a big difference.
You’re also arguing that because pitchers who came AFTER Hernandez don’t pitch much, can’t stay healthy, etc., he should therefore be judged by those standards. I don’t buy that. In fact, it strikes me as a very strange argument.
Right, this is the big issue with the argument. The adjustment is going to happen after guys like Scherzer and Verlander get in and not before. As it should.
What would you say to this? Felix is to Verlander/Scherzer/Kershaw as Smoltz or Glavine is to Clemens/Pedro/Randy. Pitcher workloads changed significantly between the late 90s/early 2000s and the 2010s. Obviously they’ve changed even more now, but I’d argue we still shouldn’t compare Felix apples-to-apples to the old standard.
The late 90s/early 2000s crew had a clear secondary crop (Glavine/Smoltz/Mussina) after the inner circle crowd. But after Verlander/Scherzer/Greinke/Kershaw, who is there? Maybe it ends up being Sale/Sabathia, and maybe that’s sufficient.
As big a fan as I am on Felix, I don’t think he quite makes it. But I also think it’s awfully close and that there’s a case to be made.
I think there is a legitimate case for Felix Hernandez, because I think that peak value should determine entry into the Hall of Fame in most cases and career WAR should be secondary. I define a “league ace” as a pitcher who had more than 5 fWAR in a year and Hernandez did that six times. That’s pretty good! But when you dig down into pitchers inducted into the Hall of Fame who played after integration he’s not as strong a candidate as them…many of them had similar peaks to Hernandez and much longer careers. And neither his peaks nor career totals are super close to Verlander, Kershaw, or Scherzer.
I guess he’s stronger than Jack Morris (who wasn’t elected by the writers anyway, and with great controversy), and I think he’s far off from Zack Greinke. Hopefully he sticks around on the ballot long enough to have a conversation about him, but I don’t see him as a super strong candidate.
In terms of who comes after the Kershaw / Verlander / Scherzer group–I think Gerrit Cole is the most likely. And weirdly so does Aaron Nola. Corbin Burnes if he keeps pitching 190+ innings a year. Maybe Dylan Cease? Skenes if his arm doesn’t fall off (there is a decent chance it does).Those are the only pitchers I think have a real shot who are pitching right now, and some of those picks are extremely premature (Skenes, Cease) or are going to be controversial (Nola).
I’d say Felix is Cliff Lee or Ron Guidry.
Amazing in his time.
Didn’t quite manage it.
This is just begging the question though. Why is the line where it is?
I’m arguing that the “career WAR” line for starting pitchers absolutely needs to change to reflect the evolution of the game in the past 20-30 years. The existence of truly incredible stars (guys like Randy, Pedro, Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer) doesn’t detract from this argument. I’m not even a “large Hall” guy, just a pragmatist.
If Felix falls off the ballot Year 1 it’s a travesty, and we’ll look around in 10-20 years and wonder why we were adhering to outdated standards.
The career WAR leaders among SP under 30 are Alcantara, Bieber, Webb, Burnes, Marquez, Cease, and Gallen. They all have between 16 and 22 WAR depending on whether you prefer the bWAR or fWAR flavor. You tell me – how many of those guys do you think will reach even 50 WAR?
I’m just going to end with this. I found an article that Jay wrote at the end of Hernandez’ career. He noted that Hernandez’ decline was partially due to workload and injuries. Partially. But that’s been true of lots of pitchers throughout the history of baseball.
But…he then adds that the decline was also brought on by “lackluster conditioning and a stubborn resistance to adjustments”.
Later in the article, he contrasts this to Sabathia saying: “Unlike CC Sabathia, a contemporary former Cy Young winner who was similarly worked hard in his 20s (more on which momentarily), Hernandez has not continued to adapt to compensate for waning velocity by integrating a new pitch, or devoting himself to keeping in better shape.”
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/felix-hernandez-and-the-rocky-road-to-cooperstown/
So if you’re wondering why one of them is likely getting into the HOF and the other likely isn’t, maybe the answer isn’t what you think it is….
The question of how to treat these pitchers whose career span multiple eras is an interesting one, and I agree that its not logical to put Felix in merely because later-period starting pitchers aren’t in a position to accumulate as much WAR. But why isn’t Felix more comparable to say Puckett/Mattingly, a great peak that fell off a cliff? If he has simply not pitched those crappy years at the end would he have a better case? Are people saddling him with responsiblity for his demise due to poor conditioning, while Kirby was an act of god? Needless to say position players get banged up, but I myself am quicker to give a pitcher a pass for just simply having injury damage that ruins him. That’s how I view it, a shining star that burned out before he reached Max Fried’s current age
I’ll add a hot take; one that pains me as a kid who grew up with Puckett as his favorite non-Yankee player: I don’t think he should be in the HOF. I think Abreu has a stronger case on the statistical merits.
He’s not comparable to Puckett because he doesn’t have a sob story.
But hey – I’ll compare him to Mattingly. And Wright. And Pedroia. And Tulowitzki.
Not quite Utley or Allen, though.
The question isn’t whether Sabathia is going to make it or not; it’s why I still think of him as a Brewer- 17 starts- not an Indian or a Yankee.
My guess is he gets 70% on the first ballot and gets in next year
Why?
In that list of candidates, what pitcher is more deserving?
I know some voters are persnickety but by modern standards he ticks off all the boxes.
Wouldn’t expect him to be unanimous but he should clear 80% easy.
If he’s not first ballot nobody now active is.
I would argue that Verlander, Kershaw, and Scherzer are all likely stronger candidates than Sabathia. Not that it matters in the end, they are all getting in.
Sure, they had higher peaks.
But as you say, all are hallworthy.
But the yardstick isn’t how they compare to the best in the hall so much as how they compare to the hall average at their position. More so for their era.
Look at CC vs, say Jim Palmer and their numbers are comparable despite their times. Palmer had the 60’s and 70’s and no DH, Sabathia had the DH and PEDs to deal with but less aversion to strikeouts. Similar number or starts, similar w-l record,
and innings despite different pitcher usage. Same career length.
Palmer got in with 92%, first ballot.
Don’t see why Sabathia would be much less.
That Brewers run was just so incredible, 255 ERA+, 7 CG and just about 5 WAR. Jay should re-run a CC-version of JAWS with 17-game peak just for fun.
Has anyone else ever led both leagues in shutouts in a single season?
But is he REALLY an ace???
-WFAN
Unrelated to the HoF, but related to the Ballot Tracker ..those abandoning X for BlueSky seem destined to look as silly as those who left for Truth Social or those who left for Threads.
interesting read:
https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/new-study-shows-that-25-of-twitter-users-produce-97-of-all-tweets/610146/#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20by%20Pew,around%2097%25%20of%20all%20tweets
And only a portion of that 25% are real accounts.
It’s more of a MySpace-to-Facebook switch. (Although Twitter will soon be more analogous to the current Facebook.)
I will only speak for myself, but I sure don’t feel silly for being a Bluesky user, and won’t even if it folds someday. I had more followers on Twitter, but it just wasn’t a pleasant place to spend time anymore.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. The down voting of my comment leads me to believe that folks thought it was “right-wing”, but that was definitely not the intent.
I just believe that a true town square requires a critical mass of users (which X has) and an openness tolerance to dissenting views (which X maybe has).
The other alternatives (Truth, BlueSky, Mastodon, Threads) lack one or both of those critical foundations. It should be noted that X’s algorithms of amplifying one’s echo chambers might lead it to lose its status of tolerance for dissent.
If X fails in its mission to be a town square, I don’t think it loses to any particular competition (including BlueSky). The Roman Empire didn’t fall to the next great empire, for instance, but instead splintered into a lesser empire and regional fiefdoms, ushering a post-empire phase. X’s demise will likely look similar.
Maybe “silly” was the wrong word, but those expecting BlueSky to replace X are likely to be disappointed.
incumbency and installed base matter a lot.
Most of the corporate accounts that tried to boycott are back. Including Disney.
Like it or not the community notes mechanism is enough. Ideally, teaching critical thinking to the masses would suffice. (No, the space
“tunnel to centaurus” is not a wormhole.) But it’s too late for current “social media” gossipers.
And thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree that BlueSky will never be a town square, both because it’s largely like-minded folks and because there’s no algorithmic feed at the center of the experience to drive “discourse.” I also think that Twitter’s days of being a town square, to the extent it was one to begin with, are done, and not only because its owner has a thumb on the scales. It’s set up to amplify the loudest, most extreme statements (including outright falsehoods) that draw outrage, and I don’t think community notes are enough to combat that effect. It’s a tricky needle to thread, needless to say, because moderation and censorship are two sides of a coin, but I don’t think wholly unmoderated social media serves us well.
In Areopagitica, Milton said that in a free and open encounter, Truth would win, but that was in a world of printed tracts that A) expounded upon ideas at length and B) required significant effort to put those ideas into the world. In social media fired from the hip in 200-character or 30 second video bursts, it’s extremism, outrage, and misinformation that will draw eyeballs and win. Nuance loses. X might be a town squre still, but not in the sense of a place where ideas meet and one hears diverse viewpoints–it seems to me to be more of a place of screaming where you’ll only ever hear the loudest.
Stephen A. Smith nods VIGOROUSLY
I don’t think anyone is expecting Bluesky to “replace” Twitter.
They’re just sick of seeing their feeds flooded with Nazi ads, porn ads, crypto ads, and ads for Nazi Porn NFTs.
Ex-Twitter is a joke. The site literally is falling apart on the technical side, it’s loaded with crypto spammers, the hate speech is off the charts, the algorithm is designed to promote aggression, and the “discussion” is just angry people quote-posting to dunk on each other. It’s the opposite of what you would want in a public forum for discussion.
But what do I know, my most active social media account is the comments section at Fangraphs.
I think the biggest surprise to me is how many baseball, hockey and other sportswriters generally are hard core lefties. I would not have guessed that given the nature of what and who they cover. So be it – to each his own
Turns out people who are part of tight-knit communities surrounding team efforts tend to be less hateful, particularly based on innate physical qualities. Not really shocking to me.
They’re also forced to think before they write something, because it has to pass editorial muster…and will then published under their own name.
“The Duke” (should we call him David?) doesn’t have to do any of those things.
This, incidentally, is why I like posting in the comment section and not writing articles under my own name. Who wants to think before writing something when they’re not on the job?
I will be rooting hard for Sabathia. I think he’ll get in, if not on the first ballot.
I remember the dude at my subway stop selling newspapers would also be shouting in the morning that it’s “CC Day” when he was starting. Every time I heard that it felt like, aw yeah, today is gonna be a good day. That’s was the good stuff
Going to be a tough year for newcomers.
With Sabathia and Ichiro as clear first ballots, Wagner on the border in his last chance, and Beltran and Utley at 50%, I think a lot of newcomers are going to fall off. (10?)
Will be interesting to see how voters see Kinsler and the catchers.
You insist Sabathia will get in. The author, who has devoted far more time and energy researching the institution, the voters and their voting patterns than you, says it’s iffy. Hmm, who should I trust has the better read on the situation? Tis a mystery.
The author might be hoping to keep the question alive until the Sabathia article goes live. And then the answer pops up that yes, he is first ballot worthy.
No mystery.
He exceeds the standards for the position and there is no other starter better on the list so why not?
I sure hope the crowded ballot doesn’t keep Wagner from induction. Relievers will always be a weird case to me where there’s a good argument for “no” to all of them (except maybe Rivera) but since we put relievers in, we should put in the most dominant of his era, non-Rivera division.
Pedroia had a chance until that “slide”.
Totally different question: is there a place that tells us who’s in and who’s out as a BBWAA member eligible to vote? Personally, I’d like to know more to see the changing of the generational guard among sportswriters, particularly as more and more newspapers are not covering sports anymore and as members of my generation (I’m 68) are retiring. But I’m sure some would like to compare it to published vote lists to see if they can detect any patterns likely to change the results on some candidates for the Hall.
Hot take: HOF voters should be more inclined to give the Kirby Puckett treatment to players whose careers were cut short by what I might call injuries outside of their control, like Wright’s spinal stenosis, Pedroia’s knee being injured by Machado, Posey’s concussion history.
Being left behind the aging curve for failing to adapt when the league adapts to you, not so much.
Esteemed FanGraphs overlords: would be neat to have a place where folks could register their guesses for vote % for each nominee (similar to the free agent crowdsourcing) and it would track users’ guesses (maybe for members only?), so that we could see who ultimately comes closest to the actual percentage each player attains.
Zero chance Ichiro gets 100% of the ballot. SOMEONE is leaving him off.
Ben Zobrist was screwed out of 3 seasons of playing time and didn’t become a regular until age 26. Was a top 5 player during a pretty long peak that missed his age 23/24/25 years. He was the best player on the best team 2008-14. Then he was the difference-making addition to 2 World Series champions. Outstanding defense at every position and an on-base machine. He won’t get his due, but he is a hall of famer.
I agree with your username on this one
Love every hall of fame discussion!
I would like to begin with the discussion about pitcher CC Sabathia, cause people are saying he is not a hall of famer, but he should be first ballot. I mean, really? Mike Mussina was better than CC and it took him a few years to make the hall of fame. Yes, Mussina was better and is not close. Mussina’s WAR over 82, while Sabathia’s is just over 62. Mussina’s era was also better than CC, 3.68 to 3.74. CC Sabathia will make the hall of fame, but he shouldn’t be first or second ballot. I know Yankees fans want him to be first ballot, but his career numbers don’t merit first ballot.
Also, about Chase Utley…
I’m sorry but if Chase Utley is a hall of famer, so is Pedroia and Kinsler. Utley’s career hits are 1,885, Pedroia’s career hits are 1,805 and Kinsler’s career hits are 1,999. Utley’s career avg was just .275….come on, that doesn’t scream hall of fame. Pedroia’s career avg. was .299 which was way better. Utley never won an MVP, while Pedroia did once, Utley never won a gold glove, Pedroia won 4 and Kinsler won 2. Utley was a one-time champion with the Phillies, while Pedroia did twice and Kinsler also did it once. So, what are we talking about here? Is it about WAR? Well, let’s put it this way, the three of them had a career WAR over 51, Utley leading the way with 64. If Chase Utley is a hall of famer, then Pedroia and Kinsler should be too.
Felix Hernandez was a better pitcher than Sabathia, no doubt in my mind about it. What’s the difference here, Sabathia played with the Yankees for a very long time, the Yankees were a very good hitting team. In other words, Sabathia could allow 4 runs in 6 or 7 innings, but the Yankees will score 6 to 7 runs, which was usually the case and Sabathia still could win the game, you don’t believe me? Then why his era is 3.74?
Felix Hernandez pitched for the Seattle Mariners, not a good hitting team. He could allow two or three runs per game back then and the Mariners could still lose, because they were not that good hitting. How many era tittles won Sabathia? When Felix Hernandez was in his peak years those were not only good, but they were also great. I know a lot of CC fans will disagree with me here, but that’s nothing but the truth.
By the way, why should Utley make the hall of fame, when Kent didn’t? I’m sorry Jeff Kent had the numbers and never made it; I don’t think Utley should make it in.