The David Price Equation

As we’ve talked about a whole bunch of times, the pitching market is at a standstill right now, as teams await a Masahiro Tanaka resolution. Free agents are waiting to maximize the size of their markets, and teams are waiting because they’d prefer not to be reduced to chasing one of the free agents instead of Tanaka. Tanaka, baseball has decided, is much better. Additionally, the trade market is quiet, especially the one for David Price, because while teams do of course see Price as an ace, getting him would require giving up players, and teams are more comfortable just giving up money. So Tanaka is the primary focus.

It stands to reason there could be one more run at Price after Tanaka makes a decision. Every team but one will be left without a new Tanaka on it, and there just aren’t many starters like that available. But where once a Price trade seemed like a foregone conclusion, here’s Buster Olney on Tuesday:

Increasingly, rival executives are convinced that David Price will remain with the Rays for the 2014 season. “Ninety percent chance he stays,” said one rival official. “The [trade] market hasn’t materialized.”

There’s a growing belief David Price isn’t going anywhere. Spring training is right around the corner, and teams haven’t come calling with Wil Myers-like package offers, and the Rays are shaping up to be quite good. Trading Price right now isn’t something they have to do, because they can afford him, and teams increasingly think the Rays will just revisit this another time, after another season’s played out.

But, there’s always a but. Andrew Friedman recently referred to the projected payroll as “unaffordable” and not being sustainable. That’s something people have suspected all along, as the Rays famously struggle to build a strong revenue flow despite all the on-field success. There’s also the fact that Price’s trade value will only go down. At this point, he has two years to go until free agency. As that point draws nearer, teams have less and less reason to pay up big.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

There are two main ideas to keep in mind. The first has to do with Price’s trade value. Price will get paid something like $13 million in 2014, and if he’s good again, he’ll get paid more than that in 2015. His performance shouldn’t be expected to get better; at best, you might think he’ll stay the same. Trade value generally follows surplus value. Surplus value is the difference between what a guy gets paid and what a guy is worth on the open market. Price’s 2014 projects to have more surplus value than his 2015. Even if you account for the fact that trading for Price gives you exclusive negotiating rights prior to free agency, it’s clear that Price’s value would take a beating over a year, even were he to remain highly effective. It could even drop by roughly half. Teams don’t pay out the nose for one year of a good but fairly expensive starter.

And then, naturally, you have to consider the risk that Price gets worse. This is how it is when projecting into the future with pitchers. Price had that arm injury that put him on the DL, and he stopped throwing as hard as he used to. He still looks pretty safe, but if something did happen, his value could be reduced to tatters. The Rays need to evaluate Price’s current trade value, and they need to evaluate the difference between that and his projected trade value in the future. Whatever they come up with would be pretty substantial.

The second idea has to do with the Rays right now. If the Rays were dreadful, the math would be easier, and a trade would be easier to stomach. But the Rays aren’t dreadful — the Rays are an American League Wild Card favorite, and right now they’re the team most likely to push the Red Sox in the East. There are competing short-term and long-term interests, as there always are with the Rays, and that’s why this is so complicated.

Here’s a neat thing: trading Price would by no means cripple the Rays’ 2014 chances. This isn’t a choice between going for it now and going for it later. That’s way too dramatic. The Rays could trade Price and still advance to the World Series. At the moment, we have them projected for a better WAR than everyone in the AL besides the Red Sox and Tigers. That’s driven in large part by the fact that their position players are projected behind only those of the Angels. Price is their best starter, and he’s a good deal better than would-be replacements like Jake Odorizzi and Alex Colome, but taking out Price takes out about three projected wins. That’s three, not 30. Subtract three wins from the Rays and they’re still very much active, dangerous contenders.

The flip side of that, though, is the familiar win-curve argument, where the Rays are in one of those volatile positions where every individual win makes a big difference. So while three wins are just three wins, those three wins are critically important to a team in the Rays’ projected position. Teams like this are supposed to be making little upgrades to bolster depth and fill as many holes as possible. They’re not supposed to be subtracting stars, and when the Rays have moved quality starters in the past, they’ve had more depth than they do now. Odorizzi’s all right, but he’s a project. There’d be nothing dependable behind him.

So the equation is this: the Rays need to calculate the (negative) value of losing Price for 2014. Call that X. They need to calculate the difference between his trade value and his projected trade value in about a year. Call that Y. Obviously, the Rays want the best return they can get, but they need to try to minimize X, which would all but require the addition of big-league-ready players. If an offer presents itself such that |Y| > |X|, it’s on the Rays to make the move. If such an offer doesn’t present itself, the Rays would do well to hang on and hope. There’s real value to be gained by having Price for 2014, as the Rays are exactly the kind of team that needs a player like that most.

I can’t really go any deeper than that, since I don’t know the kinds of offers the Rays have received, and might receive soon. What they might prioritize is getting back a young starter and/or a young position player at a position of some immediate need or use. The more the Rays can get that can help them right away, the less it’ll hurt to move forward without Price in the rotation. It would diminish the loss in projected WAR. What makes things complicated is that everyone is beginning to more highly value young, cost-controlled big leaguers and near-big-leaguers, and it’s not always wise to move those guys for shorter-term pieces. The Rays might look for a team with a surplus somewhere. Alternatively, they could try to commit savings to the remaining free-agent market, not that there’s a lot of cheap talent left. They don’t have the money to, for example, sign both Kendrys Morales and Chris Capuano. Price would save them about $13 million in projected salary, but without Price, they probably wouldn’t spend that whole $13 million, given the “unaffordable” remark.

It’s a fascinating situation in which the Rays find themselves, as an immediate contender looking to sell. It didn’t give them much trouble when it came to trading James Shields, but the market is different these days and there doesn’t seem to be another Wil Myers out there. We’ll just have to see how the market re-forms in the hours and days and weeks post-Tanaka, and the Rays might still come away with something lopsided, but failing that, they could be forced to make an exceptionally difficult call. There’s not another team in baseball that has to deal with these kinds of issues.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

39 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Boris Chinchilla
12 years ago

Kershaw just changed the Price equation for pitchers

Ivan Grushenko
12 years ago

Meaning the Tanaka losers would give up more in prospects for him?

Richie
12 years ago

Given that the Kershaw price was just about where everybody expected, I don’t know that it’s changed anything.

(points for the pun, tho’)

baycommuter
12 years ago
Reply to  Richie

Which course will make them more money? Any good analyst has to start with the Price/earnings ratio.

Pat G
12 years ago
Reply to  baycommuter

Kershaw is younger and better and therefore got substantially more money (AAV and total dollars).

That signing doesnt affect the price market at all, and dave actually makes that point with the verlander/felix point in his article.

Tim A
12 years ago

At this point I would go into 2014 with Price. I would then look at where the teams at in the race, and attendance mid season. I think the amount of value that they would receive at the deadline is greater then what they get now. Teams will pay out the nose for Price if they are in the hunt. The one caveat is that this is the riskier strategy health wise, but since the team knows the player, if they feel his health should be good then it behoves them to wait so that he’s a proven commodity when they deal him. You would hope they would be in the hunt, and simultaneously fill holes that might have opened up do to injury for them during the season.

Kevin
12 years ago
Reply to  Tim A

Of course, if the Rays are in the hunt at that time of year there’s virtually no chance they’d trade him, and if they keep him now they’re pretty likely to be in that position.

RMD
12 years ago

Intentionally delaying the service time of Desmond Jennings and Will Myers were the opposite of the “fallacy of shortsightedness”, but fallacies nonetheless. They intentionally made their present teams worse to save money six years down the road. It looks like the Rays have learned their lesson and actually worry about their present. With Price, they’re a playoff team. Without him, they’re not.

deezy
12 years ago
Reply to  RMD

The difference between Price and Odorizzi/Colome is likely around 3 wins. I highly doubt those three wins are keeping them a playoff contender. They would still be a very good team.

BipMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  deezy

Three wins is a huge number at their place in the win curve. They were 91-71 after the first 162 last year, and losing three wins from 91 could be devastating. They are exactly at the place where every win is at its most valuable, and they cannot afford to say “well if we sacrifice here, we’re still a good team”.

jim
12 years ago
Reply to  RMD

how much worse were they, really, for not getting a couple more months of myers and jennings?

John C
12 years ago
Reply to  jim

Wouldn’t have made in difference in either case. The Rays finished too far behind the Yankees in ’11 for Jennings to have made the difference, and too far behind the Red Sox in ’13 for Myers to have made the difference. If they had both come up in April, those races might have been a couple of games closer, but that’s it.

That said, this practice of gaming service time is going to cost them a playoff spot at some point. They’ve been lucky to this point that it hasn’t.

Visitor
12 years ago
Reply to  John C

It also might well gain (or have gained) them a playoff spot. You can’t ignore that they do get benefits from doing it as well.

pastlives
12 years ago

If Price blows his elbow out in May and needs Tommy John, the Rays will have a reeeeally interesting decision at the end of the year. (Not saying it’s likely or anything, just that such a situation would be interesting)

Grant
12 years ago
Reply to  pastlives

That’s a pretty big IF you’re talking about.

bdhumbert
12 years ago

But don’t we have to give some consideration to what the Ray need in a trade…

They are pretty solid in the position players – before they signed Loney I might have been tempted to trade him for a 4+ WAR 1st baseman – but other than that what do they NEED. My guess is that they would need future starting pitching depth the most – but that does nothing for them this year.

As others have said – with him they are a playoff team/maybe a top 4 team – trade him for “future starters” and they are sitting at home in early October.

deezy
12 years ago
Reply to  bdhumbert

The three wins they would likely lose wouldn’t take them from a top 4 team to a non contender. They are still a very good team.

As for needs, the major league club is pretty much set. There were rumors early on that the Rays were insisting on a young major league starter in return. Hence the Walker rumors. Otherwise, just the best haul of top prospects. Just like with the draft, you worry about where all the pieces fit when you need to.

Baltar
12 years ago
Reply to  deezy

In order to lower payroll the Rays would do well to trade Price and Bell in a package. Seattle is the obvious target with Walker and Franklin filling 2 needs for the Rays (Price’s spot and a better mid-infield backup). To make it more attractive, the Rays could also include Lobaton, not for money reasons but just because he is surplus for them but could fill one of Seattle’s needs.
Its unfortunate that Price said he would not sign a long-term contract with Seattle, but otherwise there could be a good trade for both teams there.

Topher
12 years ago
Reply to  Baltar

It’s not a good trade for Seattle. Even if they don’t get Tanaka they can fill SP needs with other FA s. They need to keep Walker and trade Franklin and other’s for a solid OF. Franklin and Walker would be overkill.

Spud
12 years ago
Reply to  bdhumbert

I think they could use a pimp SS and more pitching…

Bones
12 years ago
Reply to  Spud

I’m looking at Towers and his 2 SS after he loses out on Tanaka. Price will be in Arizona and either Owings or Gregorious with other prospects will be in TB. That’s my prediction.

Bill
12 years ago
Reply to  Bones

doubtful. Escobar I believe has a 5mil option for next year and the rays have hak ju lee.

Say ‘Bradley’ and no we are talking.

ttnorm
12 years ago
Reply to  Spud

Wonder if they could pry Profar next winter when Escobar’s deals is done. Profar would be starting his final pre arb year in 15 and wouldn’t be all that cheap.

Richie
12 years ago

Their exact DL list come June 1 will tell them what they need. Not that it’ll necessarily be available, of course.

deezy
12 years ago
Reply to  Richie

Thats what depth is for but you never know.

dc
12 years ago

only 3 win difference between Price and Ordozzi and Colome?

seems pretty ridiculous

John C
12 years ago
Reply to  dc

Unless Price reprises his 2012 season or his replacement was just lousy, 3 WAR is probably pretty fair. Price himself was either worth 2.8 WAR in 2013 (per B-R) or 4.4 (per here), so another pitcher wouldn’t have to be all that good to be 3 WAR worse than him.

Shankbone
12 years ago
Reply to  dc

I agree. Assuming prospects can fill up big boy shoes is not easy to gauge.

Shankbone
12 years ago

The Rays have the MLB tv money to cover Price’s salary now. So they might be more covered than what was thought 2 years ago.

Brukruu
12 years ago

Anyway to compute what a world championship would do for the Rays?? I would think the national exposure and say a super exciting 7 game world series and a world championship would excite that shaky fan base and perhaps finally get that Florida market?? Maybe not….Marlins have won and they still low payroll…so maybe I am just wishful thinking? I would like to see them stick with Price and make that run!!

stevenam
12 years ago
Reply to  Brukruu

I take your point, but as you well know, the Marlins are very possibly the worst run franchise in all of… franchise-dom. Sports or otherwise. Twice they “minimized” the following year effect of a World Series, as though financial loss was their primary goal. Not sure you really want to use them as an example for anybody.
The fact remains, the Rays do have a recent WS appearance and many postseason appearances to their credit, with an exciting, young, energetic and (as I said) successful team. Still, they can’t draw flies to the hideous excuse for a stadium in a putrid sports town. What they really need is a fleet of moving vans and a new address.

PackBob
12 years ago

The Rays seem pretty sharp and must realize as Jeff points out that they are on the cusp. While a worse or injured Price is a factor so is a failed prospect package. They kind of even out. Price may be like a see-saw that is balanced such that it needs a predetermined weight to tip it toward a trade for prospects.

BurleighGrimes
12 years ago

Like everyone, I love playing armchair GM but in this case I’m happy not to be making a decision.

jrubyMember since 2026
12 years ago

As Jeff points out, it’s not as easy as saying “three wins won’t take them from a top team to a contender.”

The article a few days ago on the Rangers losing Holland suggested that, where the Rangers are on the win curve, losing one win probably reduced their chances of getting into the playoffs by about 8%. Even given that the Rays are better than the Rangers, three wins could take them from, say, 70% to 50%. That’s a very big deal, and changes whether you have a chance to win the division, what you’re going to be doing at the trade deadline, how you use your starters down the stretch…

Gaupo
12 years ago

The Rays should and will trade for the best available return. In the Shields trade it just happened to be for a ML ready player. Their other trades weren’t all like that.

jmast
12 years ago

Any interest in SS Francisco Lindor and a young pitcher from the Indians? They need a TOTR starter. Lindor rates out higher than Lee at short and is the Tribe’s best prospect. Include pitcher Trevor Bauer, Carlos Carrasco or Zack McAllister — could you have the beginning of a package?

Topher
12 years ago

Oliver says Price at 4.5 war next year . Franklin at 3.1. Walker at 1.0…So that is projected for next year.Why would Seattle make this exchange? They wouldn’t

Patrick
12 years ago

Why do we just keep accepting the Rays’ assertion that they can’t sustain a larger payroll? They operate in reasonably sized local market (people living close enough to buy season tickets) and an immense regional market (places where they should have a television monopoly). They have a very rich owner; Stuart Sternberg made $800 million at Goldman, Sachs.

Baseball teams are businesses; a team that has a monopoly over a market the size of the Rays’ market and still depends on the largesse of the other owners is a failure, no matter how many games it wins.

Fan allegiance is not a product of how many games a team wins; it is a product of the expectation that a team will win. It is hard to create a consistent expectation of winning when you consistently sell off your best players for prospects (even if you get a good return, the average fans, who provide more revenue than the Internet diehards,aren’t going to be excited).

At what point do we start to assign some of the blame for the Rays’ revenue issues on the Rays themselves? The Tampa Bay market is comparable to the St. Louis market, and the Central Florida market is at least as large as the New England market. Isn’t it just possible that the Cardinals and Red Sox have greater resources to field teams, because they are better run the Rays? Isn’t it just possible that these teams’ willingness to invest in a competitive product year after year is the real reason that they can afford such large payrolls?

I think the real question isn’t whether the Rays should trade David Price, but why they aren’t investing to acquire the additional pieces that would make them the favorites in the AL East.

Ian R.
12 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

It kinda helps that the Cardinals and Red Sox are two old, storied teams with generations of fans behind them. The Rays have only existed since 1997, and they’ve only been good since 2008.

Also, the Central Florida market is at least as large as the New England market? Really? Depending on where you draw the borders, most estimates would say the population of Central Florida is around 4 million. There’s more people than that in Greater Boston alone.